< 1543278209 824441 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1543282293 859994 :zzo38_!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1543282308 529963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1543282310 756717 :zzo38_!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca NICK :zzo38 < 1543282631 728622 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1543283443 582336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1543295402 98916 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1543295497 989317 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543297366 959704 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.181.62.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1543297747 355115 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1543297873 784423 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@77.28.218.23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543297873 936139 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@77.28.218.23 QUIT :Changing host < 1543297873 936181 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543299639 813373 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-76-126-180-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543299651 264979 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-76-126-180-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1543299847 687745 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is what someone else wrote about Sirlin's chess variant: "PS. Like most people, I consider the name Sirlin chose for his chess variant--Chess2, the Sequel--to be full of hubris. Probably part of the reason never caught on with chess fans....." < 1543300337 322524 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1543300476 698845 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1543304435 421832 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njmnlvnpqabrrowr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1543307988 4947 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1543308056 209031 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1543310911 159327 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1543311762 242630 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two kind of restricted double move chess variant can be "get out of the way" and "get in the way". < 1543311811 974021 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is "get out of the way" then you can play X and then Y, but only if Y by itself is not valid. If it is "get in the way" then you can play X and then Y, but only if Y by itself is valid but Y followed by X isn't valid. < 1543311827 501754 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What will you think of this? < 1543314017 15245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.181.62.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hi! < 1543314070 43998 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.181.62.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I’ll quote these to my friend who’s interested in these kinds of chess AFAIR. Maybe he’ll say something < 1543315383 458590 :heyoka!~soulez@unaffiliated/soulez JOIN :#esoteric < 1543315422 780807 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hm if the outsiders' minds get wiped, does that include the three fiends? maybe _they_ don't know how bad the snarl is either... < 1543315485 672093 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543315511 503650 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION accidentally archive trawled to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html where he thought of this < 1543315524 297321 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: "get out of the way" still seems very powerful. you can usually move with the same piece twice in different directions. < 1543315565 738109 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what about the additional restriction that X and Y move different pieces? < 1543315573 330495 :heyoka!~soulez@unaffiliated/soulez PART :#esoteric < 1543315615 902802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: dunno < 1543315633 690236 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I really haven't thought much about this, and I'm not that great at chess or chess variants) < 1543315807 294029 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c213-103-131-86.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1543315807 384023 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c213-103-131-86.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1543315807 384086 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1543317747 493959 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543321360 147675 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1543322576 92318 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mockunexmonqerdp JOIN :#esoteric < 1543322645 206299 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1543323136 841464 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543323137 15125 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1543324105 61238 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1543324108 791971 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1543324130 470828 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543324581 877874 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1543324717 433770 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1543327008 351775 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1543327048 530773 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543328649 779527 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1543330459 481374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DMC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58507&oldid=57938 5* 03DMC 5* (+85) 10 < 1543330911 206366 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1543331135 935829 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1543331148 18754 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543336075 94754 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I failed to mention (but should have done) that you have to move two different pieces < 1543336095 172127 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although it can be two different pieces of the same kind) < 1543338206 226614 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1543339009 839431 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1543340952 623663 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a syntax where variables are marked for whether they are being read, written to, or both. < 1543341051 538022 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@z + $x $y; // read x, add y to it, then write to z < 1543341051 628192 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: v @ ? . < 1543341075 449773 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#x + $y; // add x to y and wrtie back into x < 1543341082 861801 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1543341096 780590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: hi < 1543341120 269494 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is related to a some things I was talking about recently. < 1543341194 806977 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.120.225 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543341194 922345 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.120.225 QUIT :Changing host < 1543341194 922383 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543341276 804362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm confused. < 1543341296 829691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What delimits what's written to the variable? < 1543341303 228634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's #x + #x? < 1543341498 360179 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would read x and add it to itself, writing back into x < 1543341842 230080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the same as #x + $x and $x + #x? < 1543342077 754781 :Yurume_______!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1543344831 505485 :siraben!sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-efncgekuejzazbel QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1543344843 409592 :copumpkin[m]!copumpkinm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ijwfstakbkguuomu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1543345053 4018 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.181.62.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1543345528 909817 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I guess I havent really thought into the effect of order in this < 1543345591 626075 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the delimiter a statement or what? < 1543345602 498551 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's f(@x + 1)? < 1543345903 38039 :copumpkin[m]!copumpkinm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gghfgjpfmtkheqor JOIN :#esoteric < 1543346534 461593 :siraben!sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zlvcbtxbpssjnwzd JOIN :#esoteric < 1543346796 789714 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1543347051 45875 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1543347149 872420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1543347291 828859 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1543348068 537899 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1543348598 217467 :copumpkin[m]!copumpkinm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gghfgjpfmtkheqor QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1543348612 849376 :siraben!sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zlvcbtxbpssjnwzd QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1543348853 987477 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1543348870 195158 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c213-103-131-86.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1543348870 285691 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c213-103-131-86.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1543348870 332555 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1543348988 433807 :copumpkin[m]!copumpkinm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kyuwaizmiupzmycc JOIN :#esoteric < 1543349621 807861 :siraben!sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wifwvpemkbaofyie JOIN :#esoteric < 1543350329 210024 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1543350564 879743 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1543350608 677122 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... so basically, my idea is that within a "phrase" the components are marked for their roles < 1543350645 733490 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3 > 1543350686 299144 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58508&oldid=58506 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+813) 10Generic Interpreter Patterns < 1543350728 122993 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe the order of the components then, no longer matters < 1543350955 116118 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or matters in a different way < 1543351077 921630 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#w $x / $y $z; // multiply w by x, and divide by y*z, then put the result into w < 1543351240 647588 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#x f #y $z; // f called with x, y, and z as arguments, with x and y being called by reference, and z being copied < 1543351324 617383 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a)f(b,c); // a valid declaration of f < 1543351407 168718 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I can borrow some part of that for my language idea < 1543351419 445176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like ". rw(x)` + 1" for "x += 1"? < 1543351436 155009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :. f(rw(x)`) // x = f(x) < 1543351448 993209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :. min(rw(x)`, y) // x = min(x, y) < 1543351528 618066 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181127.html < 1543351529 156496 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found < 1543353586 482952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1543353605 678792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about it a bit more, "is there a discrete logarithm of x mod p to base b?" has to be computationally hard in the general case < 1543353623 204804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1543353647 744088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "just square b" but of course that doesn't change the problem at all < 1543353692 242770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what are x, p, and b? < 1543353747 446337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that is computationally hard, but I'm not entirely sure < 1543353782 85496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... it might actually be. you may need to factor an integer for that. < 1543353790 317072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know really < 1543353793 324957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: anything, the question is whether we can solve this for arbitrary x/p/b < 1543353808 929854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original problem is "what is the discrete logarithm of x mod p to base b" with prime p < 1543353812 107059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but they're natural numbers? < 1543353814 817975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not attached to p being prime < 1543353819 881520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, natural numbers < 1543353830 538444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :logarithms in modular arithmetic are weird < 1543353848 805599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. 2**3 mod 5 is 3, so log_2(3) mod 5 is 3 < 1543353870 536532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use "discrete logarithm" for that so that it doesn't get confused with the more normal sort of logarithm < 1543353944 29059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is related to the M:tG TCness proof, I'm trying to come up with a concrete program that can easily be written in The Waterfall Model and yet which is known to be beyond the world's ability to solve < 1543354002 952523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :discrete logarithm is the underlying problem behind a decently large proportion of crypto, so if it were solvable in general the implications would be pretty far-reaching < 1543354021 958354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a single question, or can it be a uniform distribution of a few hundred questions, at least one of which is hard to solve? < 1543354023 239005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(err, solvable in practice, I mean; it's clearly solvable in theory due to the possibility of brute-forcing it) < 1543354039 800205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I would like to have a single, concrete question that is hard to solve, i.e. I know what the specific quesiton is < 1543354042 454400 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even half of them being hard to solve or something < 1543354053 639828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, so you want specific numbers. that's harder. < 1543354115 773381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this needs to be a decision problem, not a "return a number as the answer" problem, because you don't need to know what the resulting gamestate will be if you can predict who wins the game < 1543354119 795037 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want a single question like the Goldbach conjecture or even the Riemann conjecture < 1543354172 904409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, we don't allow side channel outputs from the match, such as ante or Double Cross < 1543354199 656414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want this to be viable in a tournament, and the side-channels don't exist there < 1543354236 87905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goldbach conjecture is possibly the easiest well-known unsolved problem to implement in The Waterfall Model, but the program would be unfortunately large, I think < 1543354244 338928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several nested loops and you need a prime generator < 1543354302 510387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, prime factorisation turns out to be strongly related to discrete square root (a fast solution to one would solve the other) but the decision versions of them work differently from the return-a-number versions < 1543355252 764866 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1543356157 789639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, ante is not used anywhere, and Double Cross is not used in tournaments < 1543356229 517829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically you could probably do a three-way output like win/draw/lose, but that doesn't help that much < 1543356297 395405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the other un side effects are tearing cards apart, and some physical dexterity feats < 1543356661 977592 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1543356954 554937 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1543357158 975336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :physical dexterity isn't really a side effect, it doesn't have an effect beyond the game < 1543357165 952729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like an input than an output < 1543357271 812386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's mostly an input, yes, but it could have effects beyond the game I think < 1543357275 948965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rare, sure < 1543357327 371527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there are any effects that force physical dexterity behaviour from other people? < 1543357332 426576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just effects that give a consequence for it < 1543357341 227572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably necessary to avoid forcing people into situations they're uncomfortable with < 1543357423 785500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are if you use Mindslaver < 1543357431 453969 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :without that, there aren't < 1543357434 356991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1543357439 269158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps barely < 1543357482 682642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Collector Protector is more similar to tearing up cards than the physical dexterity stuff < 1543357485 641164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I suspect physical-dexterity, verbal-component, etc. cards are partial counters to Mindslaver < 1543357504 688885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that if you don't perform the action, the Mindslaver likely can't make you do it < 1543357514 828219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the Mindslaver user could do the action themself, not sure on that < 1543357518 617412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's a ruling on the topic? < 1543357537 817681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's an un-ruling < 1543357542 547733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Mindslaver and singing the song < 1543357549 367996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says that they aren't counter < 1543357570 875033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use Mindslaver to make the opponent perform certain physical feats, the ones that appear in an activation cost, < 1543357584 652251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they can concede the game to avoid that < 1543357625 489030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are decks that try to tear up all the opponent's cards with Mindslaver and copy effects and some sort of loop < 1543357657 69588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually an interesting strategy, since it likely wins you the whole match, not just the game < 1543357675 761188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to pull off of course < 1543357712 999684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't prevent the opponent conceding < 1543357735 79889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's a commonly-claimed combo that claims to prevent the opponent conceding but it's been ruled that it doesn't work, you can always concede regardless of what cards attempt to say) < 1543357735 888448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, and the opponent can concede in the match with the calculations too, even before the calculations finish < 1543357763 494652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: my counter to that is to set up the situation so that the two possible outcomes are a loss for the opponent, or the draw < 1543357779 24497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the situation before the calculations start is strictly better for them than the situation they'll get after conceding < 1543357818 964053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1543357821 522694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, of course, they might concede anyway, given that the deck is missing the usual kill card you could probably say "wait, I don't have the kill card in here, let me see if I can work something else out" to discourage the concession < 1543357833 927095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tearing up cards is similar < 1543357841 206067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it? < 1543357863 863306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not tearing up a card the opponent owns is a strictly better situation than tearing up a card they own < 1543357953 678680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can probably leak almost 60 bits by tearing up cards < 1543358018 298671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a few more if some cards are exiled or on the stack when you go off and you can't get them back, or if some cards are basic lands or other cards so cheap that nobody cares if they're torn up < 1543358018 490567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm pretty sure you can't tear up cards in an automated way anyway < 1543358031 433751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it'd require one of the players to make a choice to do so < 1543358036 250356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can, but again only in such a way that the opponent has an opportunity to concede < 1543358045 29916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, not counting concessions < 1543358064 545209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there would be choices before they go off < 1543358072 601110 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might be playing a good deck and just win before you can do it < 1543358077 70746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name drain power < 1543358077 720857 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drain Power \ UU \ Sorcery \ Target player activates a mana ability of each land they control. Then that player loses all unspent mana and you add the mana lost this way. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, ME4-R < 1543358082 666158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name blacker lotus < 1543358083 169324 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blacker Lotus \ 0 \ Artifact \ {T}: Tear Blacker Lotus into pieces. Add four mana of any one color. Remove the pieces from the game. \ UG-R < 1543358094 225474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, plus Mindslaver and Cytoshape < 1543358098 211623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you make a card into a copy of blacker lotus, then make it into a land < 1543358109 245082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why make it into a land? < 1543358121 230988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that drain power works on it < 1543358123 534843 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it a copy of Blacker Lotus or Chaos Confetti, and Mindslaver the oppoentn < 1543358135 686433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you also need to give one player shroud so that there's no choice in drain power's targeting) < 1543358139 332880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean Drain Power as an alternative to Mindslaver? < 1543358140 731016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1543358143 740878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, mindslaver means that you're making choices < 1543358156 787650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mindslaver is useless as the output from a TCness construction < 1543358157 221742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1543358160 834537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it just changes who makes the choices < 1543358166 183736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean choices in that way < 1543358170 295457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'll have to think of that < 1543358193 814611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant only the card's owner making choices < 1543358199 121596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1543358205 945080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like that we've moved on from a combo that lets you rip up your opponent's cards to a combo that forces the opponent to conced unless they rip up their own cards, though < 1543358224 400053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one was never the case < 1543358282 157016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could do it if your opponent didn't concede first (Blacker Lotus doesn't say "activate this ability only if you own this card") < 1543358298 780819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to gain control of a cytoshaped blacker lotus and activate it < 1543358324 169767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a combo that lets the opponent rip the card or concede, and a bit bigger combo that lets the opponent choose whether you tear up their card or they concede (you have to give yourself control of a permanent the opponent owns for that) < 1543358344 460002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's how you do it without Mindslaver < 1543358390 96264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but firstly, Mindslaver is easier to pull off, because it counters some things the opponent could do, and people consider forcing the opponent to tear up their cards a better outcome than tearing the opponent's cards up themselves < 1543358423 447926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mindslaver < 1543358423 976698 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mindslaver \ 6 \ Legendary Artifact \ {4}, {T}, Sacrifice Mindslaver: You control target player during that player's next turn. (You see all cards that player could see and make all decisions for the player.) \ MRD-R, SOM-M < 1543358437 621170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I should continue processing that Oracle data I downloaded < 1543358443 57733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some day < 1543358444 740475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not today < 1543358520 700917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, wasn't Mindslaver updated so that it couldn't see cards outside the game? < 1543358536 244680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it was, for tournament reasons < 1543358555 486512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't look at the sideboard of the player you control (unless it's yourself) < 1543358560 1780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the reminder text is a bit misleading, assuming it's still valid < 1543358566 526992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when was `card-by-name last updated anyway? < 1543358574 705280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name conclave guildmage < 1543358575 369529 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1543358577 598643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a year ago or something < 1543358581 453974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ from the most recent set) < 1543358585 370704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when Yawgatog stopped updating < 1543358590 318358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming you don't count UMA) < 1543358596 17339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe before that < 1543358651 633372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` /bin/ls -dl share/mtg/allsets.txt < 1543358652 267288 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 22 Oct 5 15:43 share/mtg/allsets.txt -> allsets-2018-05-21.txt < 1543358707 808865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh look, Yawgatog now has an announcement that it won't update the oracle list anymore < 1543358737 56506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this means we'll have to work on our backup plan: I've already downloaded an Oracle snapshot, but haven't parsed most of the card data out from it yet; < 1543358760 282368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I should eventually automate downloading the Scryfall database, which ideally won't be too hard because it has some kind of nice api < 1543358770 918682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :donwload the text part of it that is, not all images < 1543358824 515227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :magiccards.info has died, so Wizard's stupid website and Scryfall are the only card databases out there < 1543358830 932950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the only up to date ones < 1543358869 27243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably I should make a version I can upload into HackEso too < 1543359143 971747 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1543359233 164335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though on the other hand, < 1543359260 335385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt share/mtg/MagicCompRuels_20181005.txt < 1543359261 194122 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http:/media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt: No such file or directory < 1543359289 87598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20181005.txt http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt < 1543359290 188550 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2018-11-27 22:54:49 URL:http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020181005.txt [707789/707789] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20181005.txt" [1] < 1543359302 394649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tr -d \\r < share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20181005.txt > share/mtg/rules.txt < 1543359302 968215 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'tr --help' for more information. < 1543359306 685819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` tr -d \\r < share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20181005.txt > share/mtg/rules.txt < 1543359308 355901 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1543359313 873381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` head share/mtg/rules.txt < 1543359314 417723 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of October 5, 2018. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” due to potential < 1543359345 579439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: save a local copy if you haven't yet < 1543361068 667949 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I made a copy < 1543361773 12703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would want a SQLite database of Magic: the Gathering cards, and including one column that tells when it is last updated. I invented remote virtual table protocol so it is possible to make a remote service too (such a remote service ought to allow constraints on the last updated column for purpose of only downloading the changes when you make a copy; any constraints not understood by the server will be implemented by the client automatically) < 1543362388 751795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah, I want to extract the data too and semi-automate it so I can extract it four times a year. not necessarily an SQLite database, but whatever, you can convert. < 1543362458 256564 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I probably won't have time for that in December < 1543362461 839834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I have an oracle dump < 1543362476 189172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-80.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haven't parsed it yet < 1543362969 210215 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1543363105 960647 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a different format can also do, since it can be converted