< 1545869400 953900 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1545869742 610403 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1545869972 311808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like ZDDs? < 1545870214 981359 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1545870554 309698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is ZDDs? < 1545870572 371022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero-suppressed binary Decision Diagrams. < 1545870577 91322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're too good. < 1545870853 831695 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545871116 426940 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-203-021-116.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545871116 799690 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545871125 437583 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-034-085.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1545871194 525700 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545871447 565900 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( oren ist ein Hamburger ) < 1545871709 905802 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :after last girl genius update i was sort of wonder if that was the end of a book, but it seems not... < 1545871714 841248 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wondering < 1545871739 794696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hierjan < 1545871773 161984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was in your time zone but now I'm back home. < 1545871785 503693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my sleep is still in your time zone. But maybe your sleep is in my time zone? < 1545871949 693670 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they actually gave an approximate time period for Albia's memory, the way they kept saying "long ago" until now i thought they were going to avoid it... < 1545871970 279651 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sounds about right. < 1545871979 505596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway do you like zdds < 1545872011 831610 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i hate them despite never having heard of them before, they're just that bad hth < 1545872066 210569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`owrjan < 1545872067 390966 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1545872124 330409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :swrjan s/His ark-nemesis is Noah/His arch-nemesis is Shin-ichi MINATO/ < 1545872132 913584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, meant to ` that < 1545872137 499015 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is that < 1545872139 759409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's probably just as well I didn't. < 1545872145 910641 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say < 1545872158 120885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :inventor of ZDDs, i think hth < 1545872162 742499 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1545872162 829870 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zdd < 1545872166 147669 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zdd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1545872169 853486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that Taneb? < 1545873263 482755 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545873534 396483 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545874566 62283 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, give me a eli5 of zdds < 1545874738 124050 :BrightBlackHole!cfb5d56d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.181.213.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545874778 970986 :BrightBlackHole!cfb5d56d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.181.213.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody from last time I joined is still here < 1545874780 908110 :BrightBlackHole!cfb5d56d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.181.213.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the same channel < 1545874783 549451 :BrightBlackHole!cfb5d56d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.181.213.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not chatting < 1545874787 352323 :BrightBlackHole!cfb5d56d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.181.213.109 QUIT :Client Quit < 1545874866 600517 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1545874969 375482 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1545878016 964357 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flatland14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58853 5* 03Bubbler 5* (+2545) 10Created page with "The '''Flatland''' language operates on a 2D plane of instructions, but it is ''not'' grid-based (as opposed to [[Befunge]] and [[Fish|><>]]). Rather, the execution paths are..." < 1545878778 302844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1545879222 288150 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1545879321 697101 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1545879695 291203 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545879953 259550 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1545881923 266263 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545882054 456847 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545882943 780995 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545883213 663225 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545883253 716763 :Hoolootwo!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue NICK :Hooloovo0 < 1545883919 951178 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1545884707 299773 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1545885410 722092 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545887400 706106 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@131.191.115.81 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1545889376 664457 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545889683 645706 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545890758 868277 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545892528 264572 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1545895538 400816 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545895839 637043 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545896105 651315 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545900213 157369 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice idea < 1545900430 259402 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there the way in Linux to clone a process so that the clone is suspending the parent like CLONE_VFORK and sharing the same memory like CLONE_VM but also shares all registers (including the program counter)? In this case it will not be useful with clone() but can be used with sys_clone, and the assumption that _exit() never returns is invalid. Also, execve() might return even if successful, which it normally can't. < 1545904000 429795 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545905847 372493 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1545906968 972484 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545908019 666224 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1545908020 365536 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545908377 633603 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545909962 734957 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1545910534 119841 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1545910560 482748 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545911073 670541 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1545911210 561879 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545911502 560168 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1545911580 882884 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545911880 882613 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1545911938 665412 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545912225 640216 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545912283 674529 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545912589 647249 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545912897 206712 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545913211 199317 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1545913262 773394 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545913263 206727 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:ec2e:b2e:2287:b693 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545914413 230222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1545915881 162812 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545916232 769575 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1545916897 763119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58854&oldid=58838 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+26) 10 > 1545916956 963704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07LolKek14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58855&oldid=58833 5* 03Pop MAXXXIM 5* (-4) 10 < 1545917980 129988 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545918505 295985 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545920218 168236 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545920515 157004 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1545923153 210820 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545923267 306780 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1545924952 979209 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1545925077 804096 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545925222 443896 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545925222 885082 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1545925242 548541 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see Brain:D is even more braindead than i first surmised. < 1545925339 841570 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first i thought the lack of mention of spaces was just a small mistake. < 1545925678 353642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's one of these write-only languages < 1545925960 903181 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1545926039 913902 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you even interpret that? < 1545926372 320204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you make a lucky guess, and then you start running < 1545926439 589529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, or you make a global registry mapping program lengths to their intended parse < 1545926453 635635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... this will seriously mess up golfing competitions. < 1545927288 306260 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen people golf in unary < 1545927319 151243 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka lenguage and a heap of other names < 1545927523 500726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's different? < 1545927612 991398 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*looks* Yeah that's different. Lenguage is Brainfuck golfing with a lexicographic comparison of programs on top, so [+] is better than [-]. < 1545928533 239247 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1545928862 429659 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545928995 551603 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later > 1545931042 109418 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dunke!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58856 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1308) 10Language > 1545931194 906324 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58857&oldid=58852 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+13) 10/* D */ > 1545931291 822496 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58858&oldid=58857 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* D */ > 1545931462 880278 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dunke!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58859&oldid=58856 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10 < 1545931630 129017 :Areallycoolusern!488d0685@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.141.6.133 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545931666 616388 :Areallycoolusern!488d0685@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.141.6.133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oof? < 1545931928 156018 :Areallycoolusern!488d0685@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.141.6.133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody home? < 1545932087 406749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture" < 1545933247 134429 :Areallycoolusern!488d0685@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.141.6.133 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1545934006 435663 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell imode about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture" < 1545934006 541422 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. > 1545934193 807820 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DukkTap14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58860 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1273) 10Created page with "DukkTap is an esoteric programming language that acts like a piece of duck tape. it's inspired by a idea in the idea list sectrion of esolang. DukkTap has 6 commands {| class..." > 1545934226 698939 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DukkTap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58861&oldid=58860 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-1) 10 > 1545934283 394813 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58862&oldid=58379 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+26) 10/* Partially Silly Ideas */ < 1545934379 387313 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1545934595 430094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode! hi > 1545934608 953877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58863&oldid=58858 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+14) 10/* D */ > 1545934721 491171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DukkTap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58864&oldid=58861 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-1) 10 < 1545934751 72319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0.3*26 < 1545934751 903634 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 7.8 < 1545934753 652520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0.3*26 18 < 1545934754 279372 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 7.8 5.4 < 1545935347 148340 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hi. < 1545935367 246588 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yooo, thanks for the article. :) < 1545935853 458354 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1545935954 474680 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1545936654 333353 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1545939221 58891 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions? lambda calculus assumes an implicit local set of variable bindings, combinatory logic assumes an implicit conversion of trinary/binary functions to unary ones during evaluation, turing machines assume a state table, tape, read/write head, and a set of symbols... < 1545939266 646191 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: what do Markov algorithms assume? < 1545939269 37651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IDK) < 1545939304 186432 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :markov algorithms and thue systems assume an ever-expanding string, a set of symbols, and either an unordered or an ordered set of ordered pairs of rules. < 1545939311 286492 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545939348 477902 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I seem to start understanding the topic < 1545939372 77931 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I’m still unable to say something useful on it < 1545939452 425984 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that bothers me is that LC/CL is phrased as "the smallest model of computation", when they aren't: they make implicit assumptions that need to be made explicit when they're actually evaluated. < 1545939478 781755 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatory logic at least is smaller than the lambda calculus, as it doesn't suffer from the weight of implicit variable bindings. < 1545939503 520806 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I really wonder what's the "smallest" when everything's made explicit. < 1545939596 300563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: look at some of the crazy ones that ais523 cares about, especially the ones related to counter machines < 1545939630 869281 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that bothers me about those is the idea that they presuppose the natural numbers. < 1545939662 658499 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn’t we presuppose something unbounded in all cases? < 1545939664 989431 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with something powerful then you artificially limit yourself. you have to then sidestep everything by an encoding. < 1545939683 469363 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct.. < 1545939704 571593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: not at full power. ultrafinitism isn't enough, but you only need to go a few exponentials to see that they work < 1545939709 832081 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me natural numbers seem very bland of all unbounded things used for computation :) < 1545939731 535610 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not very, but at least sufficiently < 1545939734 426284 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's all sorts of properties about them that you get for free, though. primes spring to mind, which is how godel numbering came about. > 1545939740 665661 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58865&oldid=58651 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1392) 10/* The Amnesiac from Minsk */ add < 1545939791 94513 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :overall it just seems inelegant. presupposing the naturals kind of brings in a package of assumptions as well. < 1545939918 17045 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we can encode them anyway and encode all the things needed for Gödel encoding, so is their complexity not imaginary? < 1545939969 663812 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. < 1545940134 860999 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :…in comparison to other things used for computations < 1545940135 25643 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. => ah hm. But in what cases we have to resort to it? For counter machines, one could use Cantor encoding of pairs and other tuples which doesn’t use primes in its construction < 1545940158 602591 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now interested. tell me more. < 1545940198 141409 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of cantor encoding of pairs. < 1545940257 40638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like (x,y) => choose(x+y,2)+y ? < 1545940263 834600 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll look for a link < 1545940274 64291 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what does choose do? > 1545940282 757200 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58866&oldid=58843 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+25) 10 < 1545940302 578469 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember there were squares in there and the projection functions were not so complicated < 1545940308 310068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: binomial coefficient < 1545940317 948992 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function#Cantor_pairing_function < 1545940345 732484 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never knew about this. < 1545940394 508425 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems pretty... out there. in order to work with it, you need to have a firm grasp of the properties of natural numbers, which draws in multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, square roots.. < 1545940444 557695 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :floor, exponentials.. < 1545940459 61368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's the (x,y) -> (2**x + (2*y+1)) encoding, and the other Cantor encoding (square-shaped, not triangle-shaped) that (0) uses < 1545940518 614599 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pretty ballin', though. < 1545940557 198267 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. I don't see the case for machines that presuppose the natural numbers, but I could use some more convincing. it's definitely not an area that I've explored to a great degree. < 1545940593 563804 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I think the way using all those is just a simpler one to compactly derive, write and calculate and all that but isn’t necessary. We could establish that the pairing is a bijection and that the projections are increasing, so there’s a simple boring algorithm to calculate them < 1545940616 551784 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be all long and no fun < 1545940622 242579 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like fun to me. < 1545940625 694416 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :teach me senpai. < 1545940643 82331 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D I haven’t done that by myself though < 1545940649 399675 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe b_jonas had? < 1545940684 141863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: look at David Madore's comment on the specific pairing relation he chose for (0) < 1545940690 325448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a particular reason for that < 1545940692 441726 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think it’s almost alike Kuratowski and others pair constructions in set theory < 1545940722 372702 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, (0) is an esolang? Will look at < 1545940741 856270 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my issue as well is that the operations you'd consider useful to do _actual_ work, in some sense, are very far removed from the operations you actually get with a counter machine. < 1545940750 29718 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to mangle increment and decrement in some sense. < 1545940787 143627 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (0) has only one basic data type, ordinal numbers => you gotta be kidding < 1545940788 437630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, (0) is an esolang < 1545940789 90321 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:24: error: parse error on input ‘data’ < 1545940838 182869 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw how do I quote here without disturbing lambdabot’s sleep?) < 1545940845 94266 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :❝ maybe < 1545940856 738185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blame David for the lack of good names for all but one of his esolangs < 1545940877 462573 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of there is good-named? < 1545940882 703037 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :those* < 1545940907 461356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :► try triangle for quoting < 1545940919 415536 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I agree < 1545940952 125957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: read the wiki < 1545940970 422202 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :already started < 1545940979 171750 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a model that presupposes you understand enough about the natural numbers to encode useful ideas. the weight of those assumptions outweighs turing machines already. > 1545941278 869494 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58867&oldid=58865 5* 03Ais523 5* (-1) 10/* The Amnesiac From Minsk */ caps < 1545941279 843808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: maybe if you could tell what is it that you do want to presuppose, it would be easier to tell what computation model suits them the best. Descartes's silly little thing? Euclides's straightline and compass? The ZFC axioms? < 1545941307 264604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1545941307 987351 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :374) it was a wonderful dream i died in it that's how it started < 1545941313 209379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1545941313 919858 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1135) i'm from space.........chu space < 1545941314 919901 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure! hence I'm just wondering. < 1545941327 315796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi HackEso < 1545941329 308784 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso > 1545941331 790087 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Amnesiac From Minsk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58868&oldid=54286 5* 03Ais523 5* (+140) 10/* The Amnesiac From Minsk, level 1 */ hello world < 1545941370 866898 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence why I asked "what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions?" < 1545941405 999473 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that about descartes? > 1545941411 252281 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Amnesiac From Minsk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58869&oldid=58868 5* 03Ais523 5* (+136) 10implemented < 1545941464 324783 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? descartes < 1545941465 383339 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :descartes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1545941479 226984 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545941495 505447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, maybe something about someone offering him a drink on an airplane, or stupidity and the size of the universe < 1545941538 91356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, bad attempts of pop culture injokes < 1545941553 750101 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1545941655 562129 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if I understand David Madore’s post right, he defined pair(x, y) = if x < y then y^2 + x else x^2 + x + y? < 1545941707 669052 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no hope to understand the motives, though < 1545941803 784551 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: rofl < 1545941855 900242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I didn’t get one about a drink) < 1545942213 953027 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need the computational equivalent of a compass and a straightedge. < 1545942669 735569 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m afraid as the elementary geometry is proven a complete and sound theory it shouldn’t allow one to base Turing-complete computation models on itself IMO < 1545942705 939699 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and compass and straightedge don’t exceed its bounds < 1545942719 186577 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they should be pretty weak < 1545942815 260723 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I didn't mean literally... but that brings to mind: what would a turing complete geometry look like? < 1545943172 292631 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something akin to tiling? < 1545943730 650205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: only when x and y are natural numbers < 1545943747 323972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the definition is more complicated in the extended case when the pairing function and (0) works over all ordinals < 1545943765 573426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: David's comment on the same post explains the motives for the pairing function < 1545943790 561268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean that it's the one true pairing function for everything, there are different goals you may want for a pairing function, that's why there are so many good ones < 1545943837 392523 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now curious as to the application of tilings to an evaluation strategy for combinatory logic. < 1545943930 725969 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: this comment specifically http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23779 < 1545943989 325537 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, bookmarked. < 1545944094 434349 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah thanks, I’ve finally found it! < 1545946464 520203 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1545946835 857798 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1545947842 131541 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1545948514 236118 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545949438 177816 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545949511 87480 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 1D wang tiling turing complete? < 1545949636 386583 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1545949699 317029 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. what's the power of them, then? off the top of my head you could perhaps simulate a single stack machine. < 1545950337 443834 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm good question < 1545950345 438657 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they are somewhat trivial < 1545950370 750411 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can rather easily decide if a set of 1d tiles will have a finite or infinite cover < 1545950384 468301 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to find a cycle < 1545950533 996872 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1545951448 634736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no, but there's something close to it that is, with two one-dimensional tilings and the tiles in them matching in sequence ... whatever is the name of that < 1545951485 920759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called Post correspondance problem I think < 1545951489 512578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also PCP < 1545951504 342385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ance < 1545951505 484930 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c < 1545951515 450001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? 2 ance < 1545951516 527996 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 ance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1545951521 778369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 ? ance < 1545951523 179962 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:e, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance. < 1545951526 351657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1545951527 88074 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidenc < 1545951528 193261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1545951537 913540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :correspondance isn't common enough to go to that short truncated list < 1545951572 195089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's actually spelled corespondence < 1545951606 743753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it should be obvious to anyone for etymology reasons, because all that spelling comes from old French and Latin < 1545952493 157085 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a9e-141.dhcp.inet.fi NICK :aloril < 1545954445 759378 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545954592 850389 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545954735 638473 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds