< 1548720607 312397 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1548720629 943425 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ElemScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59498&oldid=59495 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (-26) 10[1] no need in plain links to itself, [2] user page links should be explicit, by starting with User:, [3] really please elaborate what you mean there < 1548721153 320473 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1548721245 738640 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1548721482 312864 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: does it gotta go < 1548721546 145512 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-273-77.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1548721676 583050 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :refusing to let time pass? < 1548721727 631818 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas NICK :Remavas[ZzZz] < 1548721806 735955 :Remavas[ZzZz]!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1548723458 576212 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03EsoLangUser11 5* 10New user account < 1548724563 970459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know any type systems or whatevers that are really linear, not just affine? < 1548724846 442289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taking the string diagram thing I was thinking about, maybe it'd look like this: Every "function" has some number of input arguments and some number of output arguments, and you have to use each output exactly once. < 1548724899 521929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can use uppercase for output and lowercase for input or something. < 1548724945 460422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems a bit like a logic language? < 1548724964 162786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way you can compose things in general is to create new variables for the intermediate values. < 1548725014 533038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you have add which has two inputs and one output. You could write something like "add(a, b, X) add(x, c, R)" < 1548725025 249094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has three inputs and one output, a,b,c,R < 1548725055 44937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For data/comonoids, you have dup(x, Y, Z) and del(x) > 1548725115 905763 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Something Fawful 5* 10New user account < 1548725122 844784 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's just dup(x, ...) which lets you produce zero or more copies of the input. < 1548725197 739749 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway you have to use each variable exactly once each of lowercase and uppercase. < 1548725206 564676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean each name. < 1548725433 733020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Seems similar to the mode thing you were talking about the other day, though I think that's not linear. < 1548726003 782444 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548726490 544049 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rddwdrudugrwbikr JOIN :#esoteric < 1548726496 647112 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1548726622 787422 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart JOIN :#esoteric < 1548727465 774809 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548727499 954830 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1548727860 784765 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart JOIN :#esoteric < 1548728018 587921 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548728137 173353 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 QUIT :Client Quit < 1548728153 477551 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 JOIN :#esoteric > 1548728341 150546 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59499&oldid=59478 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+10) 10 > 1548728692 330836 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59500&oldid=59499 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (-10) 10 > 1548729998 193976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59501&oldid=59487 5* 03Something Fawful 5* (+313) 10/* Introductions */ > 1548730290 529834 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:TuxCrafting14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59502&oldid=49876 5* 03Sigfb05 5* (+661) 10 > 1548730543 164994 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59503&oldid=59500 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+3628) 10 < 1548730899 770750 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1548731826 73017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59504&oldid=59503 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+15) 10 < 1548733820 734003 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1548734271 252927 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric < 1548735829 748565 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-47-134-163.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1548738500 376923 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1548739468 637991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59505&oldid=58016 5* 03FSHelix 5* (+306) 10/* Divmod algorithm */ < 1548739696 872023 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1548739784 150417 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1548741647 245046 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-47-134-163.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3 < 1548741778 679610 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1548741802 535251 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1548743558 429382 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1548747936 248299 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rddwdrudugrwbikr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1548754891 252243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions: math < 1548754892 402557 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms. < 1548754914 223412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You invented string diagrams, maybe you have some idea? This seems pretty neat. < 1548754928 906236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of weird category is this? < 1548754948 184956 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of weird category is what? < 1548755056 666445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure exactly. < 1548755072 247117 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a dagger compact category? < 1548755074 570323 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? boost < 1548755075 597836 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boost? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1548755076 956365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly! < 1548755125 726290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you have to be explicit about all inputs and outputs, you might write "f(x) = g(h(x))" as f(x,Z) = f(x,Y) g(y,Z) < 1548755172 215849 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo? < 1548755186 558079 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly? < 1548755210 339844 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z)? < 1548755217 951055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes. < 1548755246 603232 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it definitely feels like a category, I'll start with that < 1548755246 853961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This just corresponds to connecting up strings. Every name must be used twice, once as input (lowercase) and once as output (uppercase). < 1548755272 607691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the ones that are used only once, which are the inputs and outputs to the thing you're defining. < 1548755294 297860 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, what do you do when you have something more complicated than composition? < 1548755327 133712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you have a sum type that you want to match on. < 1548755350 854291 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you use something like +, like with tensors? < 1548755382 722581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that some operators can be used in multiple modes. For example cons(x,xs,L) constructs a list, and cons(X,XS,l) matches on a list. < 1548755425 735971 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe everything winds up reversible like that? < 1548755445 123226 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on your primitives, of course < 1548755459 547011 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then maybe you can write: append(l,ys,ZS) = ( cons(X, XS, l) cons(x, tmp, ZS) append(xs, ys, TMP) ) + ( nil(l) id(ys,ZS) ) < 1548755473 432788 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z) < 1548755480 762555 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does this work < 1548755483 732551 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "e1 + e2", e1 and e2 must have the same free variables in the same modes. < 1548755489 179345 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1548755494 307578 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an n-arg function becomes an n+1 arg function < 1548755498 354664 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the extra arg is the output < 1548755518 959536 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1548755521 403240 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z) means f(x) = h(g(x)) < 1548755559 535753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes. That one. < 1548755560 644143 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is just prolog! < 1548755572 535092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty prology the way I'm describing it. < 1548755600 409856 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I think it's more interesting when the things you're dealing with aren't just data (i.e. not comonoids). < 1548755618 913782 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't just drop a thing. You must use it exactly once in general. < 1548755686 274921 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, if you're using this to talk about (multi)linear algebra, you might write f(X,Y) to represent f being a (2,0)-tensor < 1548755838 678598 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: got any good chains of block i can get in on twh < 1548755953 901810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway maybe it is prolog-related. What's the category theory of prolog? < 1548756096 244797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/01/belgian-artist-rescued-from-installation-representing-inescapable-burden-of-history is a pretty good example < 1548756145 700734 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unfortunately I didn't find any actual block chains... I would have expected that linked concrete blocks would make a good barricade. maybe I should have used "linked" as a keyword in my search) < 1548756177 172235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but lunch first. < 1548756187 374929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time int-e < 1548756188 662696 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for int-e is Tue Jan 29 11:03:07 2019 < 1548756462 115588 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548756544 395315 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe an alternative would be producing < 1548756564 721986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :one output for each summand, or something? < 1548756578 44746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that'd work, if you only have one tensor. < 1548756608 107223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1548756663 425598 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For handling a summand, you could have something like: < 1548756693 579876 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh, tensors here! I should see the logs) < 1548756715 225036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not tensor tensors yet but I hope to connect them. < 1548756763 541235 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1548756778 524636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you have e.g. data Blah = Left String | Right Int; foo (Left s) = length s; foo (Right x) = twice x < 1548756805 615651 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might turn into something like < 1548756810 250484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : (in Blah, out Int) < 1548756864 302867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(b, OUT) = left(b, S) length(s, OUT) + right(b, X) twice(x, OUT) < 1548756868 612067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the + scheme < 1548756913 576953 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was thinking of something like: foo(b, OUT) = blah(b, L, R) length(l, OUT) twice(r, OUT) < 1548756917 824034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course that doesn't work at all. < 1548756927 287105 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1548756950 725376 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about f(a,b,c:x,y) instead of lower/uppercase < 1548756996 335693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure about the exact syntax yet. I'm trying to match index notation with upper/lower indices. < 1548757041 892815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's important (?) that every letter is used once as input and once as output. Is there a Prolog variant that does that? < 1548757146 698369 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1548757155 956996 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548757251 966322 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1548757263 595294 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcehbybvusuxld.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1548757273 119440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a traced monoidal category, you can implement something like recursion with something like foo(x,X) < 1548757279 80969 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/implement/do/ < 1548757473 946713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course for single-output things you could support a shorthand like f(g(x)) < 1548757498 410243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is more interesting for things with nontrivial graphs. < 1548757559 218283 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548758006 186791 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548758180 935701 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.209.6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1548758483 797845 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1548758581 267537 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, presumably true(X) true(x) is just 1 < 1548758588 184889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how the scalars work here exactly. < 1548758601 739964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A scalar is a thing with no inputs and no outputs. < 1548758608 495030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a good meaning for something like (left(a, X) + left(b, X)) ? < 1548758615 184439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just backtracking or something? < 1548758654 159983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :true(X) false(x) = 0 < 1548758721 939404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, this could be tg < 1548759206 785951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, this is literally prolog < 1548759803 812374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, this is TG < 1548761924 666176 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1548762021 250551 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1548762970 119838 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59506 5* 03A 5* (+268) 10Save > 1548763507 53107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59507&oldid=59506 5* 03A 5* (+730) 10 > 1548763537 722340 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59508&oldid=59507 5* 03A 5* (+3) 10 > 1548763801 552029 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59509&oldid=59508 5* 03A 5* (+444) 10 > 1548764101 882041 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59510&oldid=59509 5* 03A 5* (+499) 10/* Setting variables */ > 1548764137 487136 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59511&oldid=59510 5* 03A 5* (+31) 10/* Other operators */ > 1548764300 724478 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59512&oldid=59511 5* 03A 5* (+86) 10/* Other operators */ > 1548764344 329697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59513&oldid=59512 5* 03A 5* (-10) 10 > 1548764384 97499 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59514&oldid=59513 5* 03A 5* (-68) 10/* Documentation (actually a tutorial) */ > 1548764422 497268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59515&oldid=59514 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10/* =Hello world */ > 1548764432 592493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59516&oldid=59515 5* 03A 5* (-8) 10/* Hello World! program */ > 1548764684 458933 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59517&oldid=59516 5* 03A 5* (+162) 10/* Other operators */ > 1548764843 752641 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59518&oldid=59517 5* 03A 5* (+51) 10 > 1548764866 624325 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Difficult14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59519&oldid=59518 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10 < 1548766974 929275 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1548766990 263867 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1548768473 222589 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a000043f6eaa5bbc187.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1548768518 778647 :leonheart!~leonheart@gateway/tor-sasl/leonheart JOIN :#esoteric < 1548768604 949380 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uixspsffcvfcsbbj JOIN :#esoteric < 1548768981 927142 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548769058 691197 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I blame izabera https://esolangs.org/logs/2016-06-09.html#lNl < 1548769192 333082 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not really a flamewar yet, but there were short exchanges where other people claimed that I make certain pronoun errors for certain deliberate purposes < 1548769208 186581 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as for this case, I think I just wrote "Taneb invented it." because so many wisdoms say that < 1548769245 156181 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -RlF "Taneb invented it." wisdom < 1548769246 126587 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/bbc \ wisdom/sand \ wisdom/diagram chasing \ wisdom/sanity \ wisdom/taneb consistency \ wisdom/shannon \ wisdom/this sentence < 1548769250 260573 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bbc < 1548769251 445528 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it. < 1548769251 871044 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :` ?sand < 1548769252 504959 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found < 1548769255 817422 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sanity < 1548769256 902209 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it. < 1548769261 96077 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? diagram chasing < 1548769262 539028 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diagram chasing is a technique used to prove integer lemmas. Taneb invented it. < 1548769263 351398 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sand < 1548769264 360554 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it. < 1548769384 883079 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, not that many apparently. Only like four. < 1548769459 350143 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using "it" to refer to a person in English is incorrect and prone to cause offense in virtually all circumstances < 1548769520 231937 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if they're a person I invented < 1548769535 284063 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm not sure if it's supposed to refer to a person there. < 1548769538 257835 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shannon < 1548769539 339811 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented it. < 1548769548 805825 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it reads to me as referring to Shannon himself < 1548769550 941609 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably refers to the research papers < 1548769575 51146 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? taneb consistency < 1548769576 177517 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb consistency is a consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it. < 1548769581 985845 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps refers to the idea of forbidding non-mathematically minded people from reading papers < 1548769608 772147 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, and one of them is probably mine < 1548769612 137988 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? it < 1548769613 189927 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate. < 1548769622 340384 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg cat -r 8422 wisdom/it | tail -n+2 < 1548769623 410919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb invented it. < 1548769646 567141 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ That was me too, and it may have been another inappropriate use of "it" < 1548769683 768486 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. < 1548769686 451310 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1548769688 253303 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. < 1548769691 151491 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'shannon': Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. < 1548769702 453133 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's somewhat less ambiguous < 1548769790 318908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp tanea < 1548769791 395798 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tanea:Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Cambridgd. < 1548769801 865550 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg grep -l -r ":8422" 'Taneb invented it' wisdom < 1548769816 594002 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/this sentence:4396 \ wisdom/torus:5763 \ wisdom/bbc:7823 \ wisdom/it:8397 \ wisdom/underwater jousting:8405 \ wisdom/necessity:8408 < 1548769823 511794 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ and of those, "it" and "underwater jousting" are my own, so they don't count < 1548769824 137150 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1548769838 321321 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders whether "Cambridgd" is still up-to-date.
< 1548769862 819575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that it's really any of our business.) < 1548770182 435526 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? submarine jousting < 1548770183 520527 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Submarine jousting is unexplainable. < 1548770186 717615 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? underwater jousting < 1548770187 877521 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :underwater jousting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1548770212 360480 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, did Taneb invent submarine jousting? < 1548770224 12839 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1548770226 377051 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions < 1548770227 492072 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. < 1548770227 871656 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :says so < 1548770589 902653 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -r "7042" -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" wisdom/tanebvention # ed? seriously? < 1548770590 893281 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :7042:2016-02-28: `` ed wisdom/tanebvention <<<$\'1s/ Go, /&submarine jousting, /\\nwq\' < 1548771016 352204 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you watch submarine jousting? < 1548771016 694422 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what we have the important conclusions, the report notes the irony of the governments two working days forward, that the necessary, even if the government are < 1548772476 296568 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I may have invented submarine jousting but Phantom_Hoover is the undisputed world champion < 1548772521 666785 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw where could I read about ‘data ~ comonoids’? (I’m reading about that tensory shachaf thing finally, yay) < 1548772527 967551 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 NICK :arseniiv < 1548772545 913707 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1548772562 442444 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s about that deleting and copying, I’ve got it < 1548772602 740509 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :counit deletes, cothatotherthing duplicates < 1548772613 73945 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1548772713 987979 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not really < 1548772723 564394 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sigfpe have written several times about tensory things in Haskell (and used do notation, how couldn’t it be) < 1548772727 979932 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: huh? < 1548772747 459329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1548772747 516783 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube < 1548772764 732180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do *you* want to deliver the brexit? < 1548772765 55301 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the right to a review of it. on the commitment to the bill and the other is the reckless. the eu insists that the government take to make that a reality, and that < 1548772781 42022 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: well, I don't really know, but what you wrote sounds suspicious, so my guess is that it's wrong < 1548772824 259645 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s the only way a data ~ comonoid makes sense to me yet :) < 1548772873 251445 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe shachaf would say in what sense it should be understood, then < 1548772894 534169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Labour has been absolutely clear from the start..." < 1548772920 562982 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I get it, it’s not data vs. codata but data vs. something hardly copyable/destructible < 1548772951 410573 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it’s the case with the suspicion < 1548772998 250971 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548773155 395247 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I’m intrigued if there could be an analog of metric tensor, say, commutative functions f(x, y) and f(X, Y) canonical in some way and such that f(x, y) f(Y, Z) = id(x, Z) etc. < 1548774022 165955 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1548774037 222279 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn you, unpredictable 1-indexing < 1548774687 627922 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1548774704 546717 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1548775365 135958 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900:8319:87ab:f00:d5de JOIN :#esoteric < 1548775429 896347 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf> Oh, I was thinking of something like: foo(b, OUT) = blah(b, L, R) length(l, OUT) twice(r, OUT) => oh, could we make some abstraction of argument lists, too? for example (,) is like conjunction/product, and we could add something like disjunction/sum, and then one should be able to write blah(b, (L ; R)), where (;) is that one “disjunctional separator” < 1548775468 154465 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it suddenly reminds me of sequent calculus < 1548775491 866161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those traditional formulations of linear logic based on it < 1548775852 357827 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf> something like recursion with something like foo(x,X) => wait wait, what should foo(x, X) mean? Shouldn’t these isolated “scalars” be in a sense unobservable? We can’t interact with them, there’s no strings dangling… < 1548775957 175459 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least id(x, X) should not add anything, so maybe other scalar terms shouldn’t too… hm but a zero scalar should fail, or that nice addition semantics wouldn’t work < 1548776024 386761 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also what is TG?) < 1548776059 141693 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: an acronym shachaf uses, I think to mean "too good" < 1548776086 54218 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tg < 1548776087 311898 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not. < 1548776110 573347 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a000043f6eaa5bbc187.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me you made that up < 1548776140 21551 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :“TG is f^W Turing good and too Gödel for me” < 1548776169 494914 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 1 + 1 should be nondeterministic < 1548776213 542600 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't me. that was oerjan and int-e. < 1548776262 617232 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so the logs claim < 1548776272 530349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits tg < 1548776274 326909 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän < 1548776294 640305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dwag tg < 1548776295 233342 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dwag: not found < 1548776304 115631 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does cwlprits handle people with single-character nicks? < 1548776304 964981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't remember that command
< 1548776351 845352 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dowg? < 1548776358 665084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg tg < 1548776360 239440 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :8822:2016-07-16 revert \ 8821:2016-07-16 learn_append tg This gizmo talks gibberish too garbled to grasp. \ 7314:2016-03-29 sedlast s/quit/halt/ \ 7313:2016-03-29 learn_append tg At this level, it\'s undecidable whether you can manage to quit before losing or not. \ 7257:2016-03-21 learn TG is short for Turing-G\xc3\xb6del, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. \ 7256:2016-03-2 < 1548776425 993006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I forgot. < 1548778150 212469 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a000043f6eaa5bbc187.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1548778254 480299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we could add something like subtyping to that tensorial system to be able to control whether an expression is total and/or deterministic < 1548778254 596459 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example cons(X, XS, l) : (out a, out list a, in cons a), nil(l) : (in nil), and (A : (Γ, in t, Δ), B : (Γ, in u, Δ)) |- A + B : (Γ, in t + u, Δ), and list a = cons a + nil, and we mark list a and other ADTs as “total types” and any non-ADT sums of constructor types as either partial or indeterministic or neither (like cons a + cons a) < 1548778297 406819 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/neither/both < 1548778412 926535 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also please forget what I said about 0, it seems it shouldn’t be considered as a fail < 1548778538 637146 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Prolog analogy suggests it transparently < 1548778616 513827 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also maybe we indeed really deal there with linear logic, and then there should be two kinds of scalars and two different zeros, one is this unconditional success and the other I can’t remember what it is < 1548778664 333896 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its category is monoidal too < 1548779423 738164 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 NICK :arseniiv_ < 1548779440 619696 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 NICK :arseniiv < 1548779596 461821 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :five months ago I @told myself with and underscore some thing and today was very confused when saw and read that message < 1548779667 172901 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900:8319:87ab:f00:d5de PART :#esoteric < 1548779801 718326 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the message < 1548780167 764564 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the message was "five months ago I @told myself with and underscore some thing and today was very confused when saw and read that message " < 1548780876 688031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Yes, by comonoid I mean copy+delete < 1548780919 193807 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it was “why did you add an underscore?” < 1548781007 506861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Yes, sequent composition/the cut rule is the same sort of thing as tensor contraction. < 1548781074 808037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I think there's probably some analog of a metric at least in some contexts. < 1548781275 460018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why shouldn't 0 be fail? I think it is fail. < 1548781553 627565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can do a full classical linear logic thing, in which case it'd be one of the additive units, I guess. < 1548782054 604294 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1548782282 565034 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: consider this Prolog code: succeeds() :- . If I get it right, there’s 0 in rhs < 1548782317 450753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should be a 1? < 1548782349 500805 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m unsure too < 1548782354 427807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure. < 1548782372 150679 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"foo(X) :- bar(X)." is the same as "foo(X) :- bar(X), succeeds()." < 1548782422 268226 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it’s strange in light of that scalars are “uninteracting” < 1548782436 281028 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1548782466 784256 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don’t send to, nor recieve from them anything < 1548782480 476976 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could they change something, then? < 1548782485 108144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scalars are something like the count of ways to satisfy a program. < 1548782518 818744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one way to satisfy succeeds(), and zero ways to satisfy fails(). < 1548782530 26298 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ adds and , multiplies. < 1548782538 798973 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I just haven’t understood what foo(x, X) should mean < 1548782557 490048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, trace? I'm not sure how it should work either. < 1548782618 698825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do know that if you say "foo(x, Y) :- bar(x), vaz(Y)", then foo(x, X) = bar(x) vaz(X) < 1548782633 901501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only not sure about the behavior when they're connected. < 1548782711 537845 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there such a thing as a completely disconnected category? < 1548782718 549848 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would just be a collection of monoids, I guess < 1548782737 118187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe we must think in a prology way further, then it succeeds iff x is a fixed point of foo < 1548782766 185480 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's trace, of course. < 1548782775 546865 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: surely it should have a name and maybe even this name < 1548782777 71461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you represent rules as tensors, trace adds up the diagonals. < 1548782791 855697 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: eh, as I was typing I realised just how uninteresting it is < 1548782835 866199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: There are totally disconnected topological spaces which are at least somewhat interesting. < 1548782982 521267 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s strange that we get fixed point checking predicates seemingly out of the blue; it should be impossible for some types, but if we don’t trace any “complementary” variable pairs, then it doesn’t appear. How do one constraints that on a level of categories? < 1548783003 147298 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be impossible for some types => I mean, equality < 1548783046 360671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess these could be infinite-dimensional vector spaces which would mean a lot of my intuition about tensors stops working. < 1548783082 768144 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, special properties of id allow us have id(x, X) even if x isn’t equatable, it’s just 1 regardless < 1548783112 322357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is id(x, X) 1? < 1548783126 183709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In linera algebra trace(id_V) is the dimension of V < 1548783143 416485 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it seems like it could be the number of inhabitants of a type or something. < 1548783150 910690 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm… ow < 1548783154 704590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is indeed the number of fixed points. < 1548783214 252847 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes some sense, it seems for types without equality we can’t sensibly define a number of inhabitants < 1548783230 407470 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can’t allow writing id(x, X) for x of that type < 1548783238 352875 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have regularity again < 1548783268 234859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it might still be workable. < 1548783289 54587 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we even can’t have id of these types at all! :o < 1548783299 333906 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can’t have foo(x, X) too < 1548783326 631047 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it should be equal to foo(x, Y) id(y, X), and id(y, X) for that type doesn’t exist < 1548783343 288563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's possible for some types to have trace and others not. < 1548783372 472773 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trace too? < 1548783379 486339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say that, like in Haskell or whatever, trace allows you to write arbitrary recursion. < 1548783402 513937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So things that use trace might not halt. < 1548783404 221617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trace is the thing that lets you can write foo(x, X) < 1548783426 617927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think disallowing id is sufficient < 1548783434 988794 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1548783448 211982 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, technically it’s the trace < 1548783577 720127 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe one should simply ban any expressions with loops < 1548783609 255272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or only allow them for some types. < 1548783616 890321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular for finite types they could be OK? < 1548783649 949467 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also general recursion is probably fine too, who cares. < 1548783661 479482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you write recursive rules with trace instead of explicit recursion? < 1548783756 737367 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular for finite types they could be OK? => consider boolean not(x, X') dup(x', X, Y) < 1548783874 910292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, if you're allowing duplications that's a different story < 1548783882 925694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not representable as tensors anymore (?) < 1548783906 27873 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn’t be the category still monoidal? (IDK too) < 1548783935 855588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but if it's a tensor I know how to contract it, just sum along the diagonal. < 1548783950 433476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other cases it's less obvious. < 1548783966 826371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1548783982 335984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make + saturating, so 1 + 1 = 1, then I think this may be the category Rel? < 1548784168 297736 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about recursion: let’s take e. g. fact(n, F) = zero(n) one(F) + dup(n, N', N'') succ(M, n') times(n'', f1, F) fact(m, f1) < 1548784183 752384 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it isn’t possible without fixed-point combinator < 1548784243 426187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I should’ve written it tail-recursively < 1548784257 737452 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should take a simpler recursive function. :-) < 1548784278 924949 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the simplest recursive definition? < 1548784288 407718 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. Let’s take list length maybe < 1548784375 217760 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe doubling a number. That's pretty simple, and even primitive recursion. < 1548784402 473556 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat! < 1548784415 392956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :double(n, OUT) = zero(n) zero(OUT) + succ(M, n) double(m, M2) succ(m2, M2P1) succ(m2p1, OUT) < 1548784418 345726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1548784438 858306 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This style is so awkward. But I think you can introduce a shorthand to make it easier. < 1548784453 785388 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll write my one from scratch, it’s easier to check then < 1548784584 720827 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes of course it’s all right < 1548784650 153582 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll beter write a tail-recursive one for comparison in plain Haskell first < 1548784696 665499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think tail recursion will be easier? < 1548784720 901555 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it will connect somehow better < 1548784742 679301 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :double Z acc = acc; double (S n) acc = double n (S (S acc)) < 1548784817 428378 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in these two non-tail-recursive definitions no argument in the definition and in the recursive call does match, let’s see for tail-recursive < 1548784825 498888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :double(n, acc, OUT) = zero(n) id(acc, OUT) + succ(M, n) succ(acc, ACCP1) succ(accp1, ACCP2) double(m, ACCP2, OUT) < 1548784882 323123 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least OUT matches (obviously :D) < 1548784890 244894 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I hoped for something more < 1548784891 828430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the shorthands I was using before was that you can drop the last argument if it's out-only, and just use a thing as an expression. < 1548784895 167209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1548784941 593200 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we do still need fixed-poind combinator, IDK < 1548784946 533667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I think of trace is like https://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.5113.pdf , going around the loop repeatedly until it halts. < 1548785025 150415 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1548785124 335165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's tricky < 1548785322 984070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet if I was thinking about it more declaratively I could figure it out. < 1548785389 670507 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from another perspective, shouldn’t it then be possible in Prolog or its some known modifiaction? < 1548785403 123483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :modification* < 1548785427 263869 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about something like: < 1548785434 128432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :double(n, OUT) = trace_acc { zero(n) id(acc, OUT) + succ(M, n) succ(acc, ACCP1) succ(accp1, ACCp2) id(, OUT) } < 1548785467 428751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant id(acc, OUT) < 1548785472 668660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not even outputing ACC, it's nonsense. < 1548785586 485380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :double(n, OUT) = real_double(n, OUT, x, X) < 1548785789 553193 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :real_double(n, OUT, x, Y) = zero(n) … id(x, Y) + succ(…, n) … succ(x, Y)? < 1548785972 692513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with such trace semantics, in some other cases it could be troublesome that we start with an unknown x in foo(…, x, X) < 1548786005 881109 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in this one too, if x could be such that succ(x, X) :o < 1548786034 478031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this language shouldn’t be unmarked-lazy < 1548786460 116997 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1548786730 686564 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I don't think succ(x, Y) makes sense because then there just aren't going to be any fixed points. < 1548787136 195266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could maybe use a different style of trace: < 1548787139 847805 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean x is not acc, it’s another accumulator solely for the sake of deciding when to stop tracing, and we could eliminate acc afterwards with dup(acc) < 1548787141 297766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Either e a -> Either e b) -> a -> b < 1548787172 324315 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :x isn't acc, but your second case should just always be 0, shouldn't it? < 1548787189 990887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you take the fixed point it'll give you succ(x, X) which should just always fail. < 1548787255 612849 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems I didn’t understand what you’ve said about repeating applications then :D < 1548787288 866088 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your second case should just always be 0, shouldn't it? => at least for n nonzero it would fail too < 1548787448 920312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't follow. < 1548787461 698506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When would the right side ever not fail? < 1548787540 245883 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe what you said about dropping n makes sense. < 1548787556 528191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean dropping acc < 1548787603 307282 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1548787634 397924 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548787785 263638 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uixspsffcvfcsbbj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1548787981 359943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is tricky. < 1548788529 958706 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1548788622 880609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1548788920 494261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know a lottery or stock market where I can get data that is hard to tamper with, hard to guess in advance, is released in a regular schedule and gives new data at least every hour all around the clock, and for which I can be sure people will be able to check the values and these properties even two decades from now? < 1548788986 732472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want such a thing for making a nothing-in-my-sleeve proof, where I want to prove something, but for practical reasons my proof requires randomness, so I publish the exact method in advance and perform the proof an hour later based on the publically verifiable randomness that I couldn't have tampered with. < 1548789013 331448 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are "test" stock markets that do stuff like this. < 1548789047 635833 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: '"test" stock market' doesn't sound well. the whole point of a _real_ stock market is that if I could predict the results, I'd be rich. < 1548789061 125041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that they probably live for long. < 1548789085 274456 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :something something blockchain < 1548789094 720537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, blockchain could work < 1548789096 660391 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there are Bitcoin lotteries which function like that? < 1548789120 742732 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the random result is based on the next block or something so that it's impossible to predict but also impossible for the lottery people to lie < 1548789125 741712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone will hopefully archive the full bitcoin blockchain even if people implement a proper cutting functionality so that clients don't have to store all the chain < 1548789140 777802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, that should probably work < 1548789168 137660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's bitcoin will probably have enough publically accessible mirrored copies twenty years from now < 1548789182 229390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only < 1548789188 11597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that has a one hour turnaround < 1548789198 554365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't get my verified numbers in our hour from now < 1548789229 326452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can I? how fast are blocks these days, and how many block do I have to wait in practice? < 1548789326 365715 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you need to wait any blocks < 1548789327 182949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, isn't a single block still possible to tamper with with a non-vanishing chance if I have enough computing power, so that, say, I can buy a large botnet and have 1/1000 chance of my prediction to go my way, and then do 1000 proofs one of which seems to prove whatever I want? < 1548789338 26711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that seems unlikely to me, for bitcoin at least < 1548789342 611915 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal here is not to prevent double spend < 1548789344 865544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1548789347 699644 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess < 1548789353 168526 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still bad if a block gets kicked out of the chain later < 1548789357 83449 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :after you've used it as a rng < 1548789389 185357 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if you have enough compute power you could cherry-pick transactions in order to have some control over the block hash, but you couldn't control all 256 bits feasibly < 1548789397 426392 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to extract a low amount of entropy per block < 1548789407 119570 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk, these are just some off the cuff thoughts not having thought about it deeply < 1548789592 483523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, bitcoin blocks are one per 10 minutes, so one hour might be a bit too short but the idea doesn't seem unrealistic at least < 1548789644 470415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could work if I don't insist on hourly < 1548789660 62469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bitcoin is much less often closed for days than stock markets < 1548789695 843249 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading that mob-run illegal lotteries back in the day would use the stock market closing price < 1548789746 615529 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: do you know about non-interactive zero knowledge proofs? < 1548789763 441392 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also involve agreed-on methods for producing 'nothing up my sleeve' randomness < 1548789968 834400 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ueiiatouwhvricdt JOIN :#esoteric < 1548790008 973925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do you like the Fiat-Shamir heuristic? < 1548790011 719435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tg < 1548790025 224438 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1548790043 182148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: um, as far as I know, zero knowledge is different, and the proof I want isn't (necessarily) zero-knowledge. it might be zero-knowledge, but that's somewhat orthogonal to what I want. < 1548790062 537844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing where you hash your input to get challenges for your ZKP prover. < 1548790063 906578 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes but it might have a similar component < 1548790105 891534 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: traditional ZKP's are interactive protocols where the challenger provides randomness, but you can make them noninteractive by providing an algorithm for the prover to generate randomness, which the challenger can verify isn't cooked somehow < 1548790109 942153 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what shachaf just said < 1548790113 270954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how secure is that one? < 1548790122 295796 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1548790131 869352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, zero-knowledge usually means a non-transferable proof, one where I have a target and I prove something to them based on data they give, but they can't prove to anyone that I proved that thing to them because anyone else could believe that they chose the right data < 1548790138 670084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of the opposite of what I want < 1548790140 824005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell it's great. < 1548790158 340880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I invented it and then found out it was a standard thing. < 1548790162 500929 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, I am not saying that what you have is a zero knowledge proof system < 1548790165 512061 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you might want to ask ##crypto too < 1548790173 81573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blockchain people don't use it because they don't like Fiat. < 1548790190 454021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think I see what you mean. what I perform, other than getting the verifiable randomness itself, is sort of a zero-knowledge proof < 1548790206 331622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that I can rely on that the input data itself isn't manipulated < 1548790220 829481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not too big of a difference, you can bridge that gap with a crypto commitment < 1548790273 770047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kmc just means "ZKPs use randomness, you use randomness, let's all get along hth" < 1548790281 698977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look up lotteries, there are probably some well-known long-lived ones drawn more often than once a week on the west of the wall < 1548790307 174013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hopefully not ones like we have here that take breaks on certain days of a year < 1548790320 335136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean what the heck? why would you close a _lottery_ for a holiday? < 1548790419 473054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf> This is tricky. => fully agree > 1548790585 560379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Difficult14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59520 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+260) 10Some "missing characteristics"? < 1548790846 873046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I probably want something with the stock market, not lottery < 1548790862 538439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how the stock market works, but I can probably find out from the internet < 1548790873 385769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem with the stock market is that I hear sometimes they close for days < 1548790886 627892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the closing is often not even planned < 1548790893 377999 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus they have planned closures for holidays < 1548790903 619753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and closures every night for several hours < 1548790907 793630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's better than nothing < 1548791014 818733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kjm: I don't think that hashing multiple blocks helps. all blocks depend on all the previous blocks as far as I know, so if I can generate one block with my own info, then at that point I know the previous blocks, so I can make the entire hash to come out the way I want. < 1548791048 613490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a similar reason, hashing wikipedia edits or IRC lines can't work, because I can take the last edit or the last line of the given period < 1548791072 478823 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets a bit tricky because of lag, mind you < 1548791078 211631 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b l o c k c h a i n < 1548791079 881938 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still possible < 1548791100 732464 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm not sure I understand the security model here. is it bad if others can predict in advance the randomness used for a given proof? < 1548791156 366060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: if "others" can predict in advance, then I can't prove that I'm not one of those "others" < 1548791159 366804 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, it's bad < 1548791165 967063 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1548791176 516463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you prove your identity separately? like with a digital signature < 1548791188 212731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that "others" thing is a really well trusted third party, but those things don't exist < 1548791190 596464 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need a better description of the overall problem < 1548791195 607488 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, maybe we should take this to ##crypto < 1548791198 728810 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some very knowledgable people there < 1548791209 743361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here too < 1548791479 409585 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Riastradh isn't here :) < 1548791740 763148 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting < 1548791803 335134 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1548791966 499516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: me reading an article nominally about ZKPs and then it suddenly starts talking about blockchains: https://blog.openai.com/content/images/2017/04/low_res_maybe_faster.gif < 1548792005 527152 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1548792125 988442 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1548792126 69469 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1548792126 69504 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1548792224 112141 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548792542 519499 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait, how often does Trump tweet, and how reliable is the best pre-trained model that tells what's tweeted by him and what by his campaign manager? < 1548792543 964087 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: couldn't you achieve the thing by using a standard psuedo-random alogrithim, with a verified distribution, and use a real world source of randomness to provide a seed in the future? < 1548792597 17616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: yes, the hard part is the real world source of randomness. I know about cryptographically secure digest that can shuffle the seed so I get a uniform distribution no matter what distribution the input has, if it has enough entropy > 1548792598 217516 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Difficult14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59521&oldid=59520 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+317) 10moar < 1548792640 592137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: the question is what's the real world source that has the properties I listed above, verifable long in the future, releasing enough bits approximately every hour, and provably impossible to tamper < 1548792692 229225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I only wanted a turnaround of about one week, then certain lotteries would work < 1548792710 599063 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I want something with shorter wait time, and ideally a bit more entropy, though I can mix two lotteries to get enough entropy < 1548792722 121922 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either way, stock market or blockchain, you could still have some influence over each, or be accused of it. Isn't the only protection against that sort of thing by publishing your method and allowing others to reproduce using any comparable source of randomness of their own? < 1548792739 325535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: I am publishing my method in advance, that's the point < 1548792760 351780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the question is, what tamper-proof input should the method use? < 1548792777 80792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stock market is likely close to the answer, I just don't know enough details about it < 1548792781 41388 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how bad is random.org? < 1548792783 547011 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your peers are an unbiased(?) random source < 1548792800 784113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: random.org doesn't provide verifiable (logged in the long term) random numbers as far as I know < 1548792804 116846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me recheck < 1548792839 493016 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.58.115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope it would be at least of some use < 1548792863 320001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There's no standard stock market that is open every hour as far as I know. < 1548792887 950247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forex is the closest but it stil closes for a couple of hours a week, I think. < 1548792889 797342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it can be a combination of multiple stock markets, and even if I can't literally get what I'm asking for, I'd like at least an approximation < 1548792909 98301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: even if you give me a method that works any time except Christmas, that would be useful < 1548792913 481975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't know that there's a canonical hourly price. Though you might be able to figure out something. < 1548793033 852489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... random.org says they do provide verified random numbers, but only as a paid service https://www.random.org/draws/ < 1548793055 115371 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548793065 895665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work < 1548793112 452641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it doesn't need to be "canonical", in the sense that I can publish the exact method in advance, but that method has to be clearly impossible to tamper with < 1548793156 116819 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548793158 26981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no good < 1548793175 782023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the random.org payed service deliberately provides very little entropy < 1548793191 495125 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548793245 316383 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sunspot data, or some other large scale scientific data source that is logged? Might not be very random, but there could be enough in the precision for a seed? < 1548793268 596466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.5 USD per bit... could be worth for an important enough proof, but I'd prefer a lower price < 1548793293 7992 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone probably has sun activity hourly < 1548793295 217929 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: oh, that could work < 1548793300 669832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :NASA releases astronomical data < 1548793306 834014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I don't think it has a one hour turnaround < 1548793309 418155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's more lag < 1548793345 973494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, it's not easy to prove that I'm not working there hiding "copyright bits" in their data < 1548793370 773829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, bits that are such low order that they are effectively noise, not verifiable astronomical data < 1548793394 179601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, that's not a bad idea, might perhaps work < 1548793418 831855 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be interesting to investigate what kind of sources like that exist. On earth metereological might be too easy to "predict" < 1548793443 628419 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1548793453 840120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with meteorology is the same, I could be working at the computer tech of the meteorological institute whose data I use < 1548793473 308917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to prove that I don't work there, nor do any of my friends < 1548793489 494606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :friends in a wide enough sense < 1548793543 825309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, meteorological data archives are guarded behind paywalls, they're usually not easy to verify two decades later < 1548793547 840701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it probably won't work < 1548793553 544354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :NASA might actually be better < 1548793615 573313 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: blockchain sounds like by far the best solution here, why do you keep dismissing it < 1548793616 343778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a lottery or stock market would be the best, because there enough money is riding on enough bits that even a friend probably can't modify the bits the way they want < 1548793634 828723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I'm not dismissing it, I'm just not convinced that it works, I'd like more details than just "blockchain" < 1548793638 605528 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1548793666 826226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo invent a blockchain specifically for randomness < 1548793669 141047 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it actually sound relevant here, unlike in some of the dozen things where "blockchain" is used as a marketing word < 1548793701 116836 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548793716 447027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: or found my own country that isn't destroyed by a war for decades and has a state lottery every hour < 1548793717 878307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every hour, everyone can submit commitments to integers, and the results are all xored together. < 1548793732 581802 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what's wrong with taking the most recent bitcoin block hash < 1548793748 721613 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it can be influenced somewhat, but can you counter that by using fewer bits, somehow? < 1548793782 398034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm. how do you get it popular enough though, to make enough people interested and committed to run it on their computers? < 1548793803 735460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need that many people. < 1548793824 317251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each participant can submit their own data if they don't trust it. < 1548793828 474984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if one of these old distributed computing projects that search for Mersenne-primes or signals from space or protein folding happens to provide this as a side effect < 1548793834 899311 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the use of this thing anyway? < 1548793841 698129 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: see logs above < 1548793894 514057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it. < 1548793899 325356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but I'd have to convince people that it's worth first, make it one of the few protocols that are really ran by many people, rather than one that's abandonned and a year from now nobody will know that anyone but my friends have even ran it < 1548793904 388016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that I couldn't really fake it < 1548793906 850518 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than the "for making a nothing-in-my-sleeve proof" bit. < 1548793914 372632 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that, yes < 1548793923 250696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that seems to underspecify it. < 1548793929 261436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to give an example < 1548794287 65873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... you might be right, it's not so easy to give a convincing example without also giving a solution < 1548794297 577592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I'm thinking < 1548795346 85372 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie https://esolangs.org/logs/2016-06-09.html#lNl leads me to the wrong message in IE, although the correct one is colored. checking the source shows that i'm actually going to #lnl, IE's anchors are case insensitive. < 1548795346 566488 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1548795558 29080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think I can give a fictional example that works if I want one day of lag in the randomness. I think I can't really argue that I need as little as one hour of lag. < 1548795562 711776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: would that work? < 1548795613 520295 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably possible to get verifiably hard to tamper randomness from stock markets, or by combining multiple lotteries that draw on different days < 1548795706 159799 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie trying to google seems to imply there's some html 4 vs 5 thing involved < 1548795706 630144 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1548796114 280853 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what are you ACTUALLY trying to do < 1548796139 591538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: nothing yet, I'm just thinking about this as an exercise < 1548796164 110139 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shannon < 1548796165 407657 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. < 1548796201 867310 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd shannon//s,resa,resea, < 1548796208 865993 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shannon//Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. < 1548796221 588786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great, you're fixing that < 1548796243 496573 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Taneb did not invent correct spelling ) < 1548796443 112462 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548796638 500094 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something "blockchain" could work, depending on a clever algorithm and what the actual requirements, but seems to me that for any specifed hour you could automate some kind of influence into the 'randomness', which depending on the goal and how important it is to you, you could do. Feels like there is still room for sleeve hiding with blockchain < 1548796676 74929 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fictional example would be interesting though to see < 1548796682 752253 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Taneb How does cwlprits handle people with single-character nicks? <-- it lets them have the mess they deserve hth < 1548796683 115574 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1548796694 969762 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1548796749 586548 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: there definitely is < 1548796756 480115 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a question of how much influence you can have vs. effort < 1548796759 834025 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that can be made practical < 1548796760 651745 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1548796793 311122 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: another idea I just had: micro-quake data combined / averaged from multiple independent sources globally, to remove posdibilty that you work at the sole data source. Should be frequent, and have multiple confirmations fir same events < 1548796834 665720 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I go setting off nuclear bombs to create artificial quakes and influence the data? < 1548796837 671424 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT THEN?? < 1548796843 7083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1548796867 357788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: I certainly don't know enough about who measures and publishes micro-quake data and how to tell if that can work < 1548796916 615726 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1548796930 56429 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered LIGO and VIRGO data < 1548796942 970564 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hrm, that's pretty much my argument against blockchain :( At least the nuclear tampering is mire noticable than blockchain manipulation? < 1548796953 766225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, now that's interesting. I'll have to look up how that's published < 1548796965 195103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure myself < 1548797011 196566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps there's GPS data that is definite and logged < 1548797031 72812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, data of the GPS satellites and network itself < 1548797039 416267 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1548797042 266765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stuff that the GPS satellites themselves broadcast < 1548797042 567482 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but satellites are mostly predictable < 1548797060 801480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that's not a problem < 1548797086 336248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1548797092 375325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know how all that GPS stuff works < 1548797111 298440 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess LIGO and VIRGO also have the problem of long downtime periods. although that might get better with more detectors. < 1548797114 450525 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, the sudden outbreak of global nuclear war on the very hour if your "randomness proof" invalidates tour results. Please try again... < 1548797144 487943 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: er, I thought the whole point was to have globally agreed random numbers that can't be predicted in advance < 1548797168 147194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, but I mean, I think there's probably enough randomness in the GPS satellite data, as in, they're not too predicatble for this < 1548797183 747566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure it's broadcast in a single version and logged long time properly < 1548797202 464919 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbital mechanics is pretty predictable < 1548797509 145652 :salpynx!7695ffc7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.149.255.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1548799130 31283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the ideas, I might think or look up more about these < 1548801010 703725 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1548803120 112229 :TheKing01!80bb7411@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548803139 108118 :TheKing01!80bb7411@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello all! < 1548803145 837762 :TheKing01!80bb7411@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything fun your working on? < 1548803283 464754 :TheKing01!80bb7411@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.187.116.17 QUIT :Client Quit < 1548803323 326198 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548804074 116365 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1548804101 596254 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcehbybvusuxld.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1548804106 389208 :dauie_!~dauie@64.62.224.29 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1548804701 584232 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548804713 309575 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1548804753 748337 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi imode. < 1548804806 208417 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi TheKing01. < 1548804951 388408 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone working on anything fun? < 1548805114 366958 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548805156 440895 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not esolang related < 1548805161 286102 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm learning about ham radio antennas < 1548805186 237670 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1548805255 88306 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1548805269 305006 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, cool. < 1548805283 390452 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think you mean not esolang related *yet*. < 1548805294 335889 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on the correspondance between networks of queue automata and physical fields. < 1548805313 4891 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1548805324 256092 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that could be interesting < 1548805324 521884 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1548805336 238488 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548805650 767521 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to do my first work-blessed open source thing, which was fun enough, but it's not going to be esolang-related now or later. < 1548805663 54013 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie < 1548805674 327190 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1548805683 182708 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 QUIT :Quit: has left the premise < 1548805691 768564 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's new? < 1548805693 738340 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1548805721 123612 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548805727 472746 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 QUIT :Client Quit < 1548805789 472407 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Not much. Had I already moved to London when you were still around here? < 1548805795 319946 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, well, I moved to London. < 1548805808 569898 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've talked about it in #trains a few times < 1548805815 791965 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like it? < 1548805857 621738 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1548805859 633355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The average is positive. Cycling infrastructure could be better, and Brexit's a big mess. But there's a lot going on, and less snow. < 1548805883 4950 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1548805917 666219 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1548806050 594099 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what you could just if you just had something that reads into a JIT buffer and executes it < 1548806066 338652 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We got a UK hosting/VPS company to sponsor the wiki machine (and #esolangs logs + HackEso), that's kind of new. < 1548806077 259355 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1548806152 283250 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It used to be on Gregor's shady one-time-fee "Cloud at Cost" box, which was So Flaky.) < 1548806173 462347 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1548806184 618123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is it a short bug report to an open source project that you're depending on at work, without a patch? < 1548806270 721080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, that probably wouldn't require a blessing < 1548806274 962744 :TheKing01!~TheKing01@128.187.116.17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a fun idea for an irc related esolang. We have one which uses IRC syntax and one which uses IRC users. How about one that you program over IRC? < 1548806294 594794 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're working under a very strict non-disclosure agreement... < 1548806303 153877 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, it's something standalone I whittled together on my spare time, I just released it under the company copyright because I don't really care, and the review for that is faster than the review for getting a decision that they don't own it. < 1548806307 447366 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: https://opensource.google.com/projects/nano-exporter < 1548806342 784140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see