> 1549152626 832351 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Eodermdrome14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59699&oldid=59686 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+471) 10/* Computational class / -completeness */ Talking past each other? > 1549152765 571050 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Eodermdrome14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59700&oldid=59699 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+3) 10sub- < 1549153187 101098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 the game of life perl code is probably the obfuscated code I'm the most proud of < 1549153256 397094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not clear, there are a few other good ones I wrote < 1549153258 48357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's close < 1549153552 35702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :others include https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=813859 catalan numbers with regexen, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 GF(128) < 1549153689 703652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, this one is evil. I barely remembered it. https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1032776 < 1549154411 421924 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-246.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1549155483 529926 :wumpus1!~Thunderbi@2604:3d09:137f:d400:40a1:64ab:4d35:9670 QUIT :Quit: wumpus1 < 1549156769 264906 :MDead!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549156807 426916 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1549156814 122664 :MDead!~MDude@71.50.218.48 NICK :MDude < 1549156924 586760 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1549160871 530991 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcdyqqhxorbzuwyn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1549161164 736971 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: sin has the property that sin(x) ~ x for small x, which is pg < 1549161554 839492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it doesn't have a "co" in front of its name, is more evidence that it's the fundamental one. < 1549161568 205245 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is more fundamental, products or coproducts? < 1549161996 418656 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :who the f decided the “kilogram” was a base unit < 1549162005 601430 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a prefix! < 1549162056 822662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you'd prefer to use the millikilogram? < 1549162408 538608 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you used to see micromicrofarads on schematics < 1549162490 535352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since mass = energy = distance = time, what unit should we use to measure all of them? < 1549162589 774005 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Planck units < 1549162621 488305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1549163621 546368 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ytwqhawbpxfmxyhw JOIN :#esoteric > 1549164429 121364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Cortex/test114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59701 5* 03Cortex 5* (+31) 10Redirected page to [[User:Cortex/test2]] > 1549164450 351044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Cortex/test214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59702 5* 03Cortex 5* (+31) 10Redirected page to [[User:Cortex/test1]] > 1549165159 289654 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59703&oldid=59698 5* 03A 5* (+321) 10 < 1549165221 543934 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: c = 1 < 1549165242 993577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1549165304 373393 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units < 1549165321 172489 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's why you get one unit for all of those. < 1549165324 449434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is which one. < 1549165336 327684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess Planck length or whatever is as good as anything. > 1549165622 334436 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59704&oldid=59703 5* 03A 5* (-13) 10/* 99 bottles of beer program, where CR stands for the carriage return character */ > 1549165749 852104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59705&oldid=59704 5* 03A 5* (+189) 10/* Commands added(still extending) */ > 1549165781 696578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59706&oldid=59705 5* 03A 5* (-51) 10/* 99 bottles of beer program, where CR stands for the carriage return character */ > 1549165987 646729 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59707&oldid=59706 5* 03A 5* (+64) 10 < 1549167728 346287 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1549167928 273398 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1549179847 280578 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1549184547 567349 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ytwqhawbpxfmxyhw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1549189561 399962 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1549191936 726792 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1549191949 447478 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about data compression < 1549191965 833395 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most compression formats are designed to compress data reasonably well and do it efficiently < 1549192009 317248 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering if there's a (non lossy) compression technique which you can basically leave it arbitrarily long and it will compress better and better (of course this will have diminishing returns) < 1549192640 557812 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.127.190.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1549194068 534046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549194084 91518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: you need to distinguish between compression /formats/ and compression /encoders/ < 1549194120 436573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any format will have some maximally dense representation of the input, but for suffiiciently complex formats (and sufficiently complex is not very complex), typical encoders won't be able to find it < 1549194136 165071 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Kolmogorov complexity ) < 1549194138 436551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you're looking for is an encoder that puts in extra effort looking for particularly short representations of the input, but can be stopped at any time < 1549194208 60690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extreme is when the compression format is TC, in which case it'll be within a linear transformation of any other format in efficiency (and within a constant-sized offset if it can read literals encoded using the entire alphabet of the character set with no escaping) < 1549194225 360489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what Kolmogorov complexity measures, i.e. the shortest possible program that generates the output you want < 1549194235 92006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but finding /that/ is likely to be impossible in the general case < 1549194264 867064 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1549194265 557681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm "likely"? < 1549194352 430226 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the Church-Turing thesis turns out to be false, it could be possible < 1549194358 538330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem should give you an impossibility result... < 1549194368 775463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I didn't consider that angle. True. < 1549194372 264456 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549194541 936739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1549194637 363808 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the TC encoding gives you something recursively enumerable (the program+data that you provide is supposed to terminate with the decompressed data as output) so it does fit into rain1's description... you can enumerate basically forever, finding better and better encodings along the way, until eventually you reach a best one. You never know when to stop, of course. < 1549194678 264313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's completely infeasible. < 1549194714 447307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you don't really need anything near TC to meet the distinction. Even when you're compressing large real world images to PNG, you have a choice to compress slower but get a smaller file, or compress faster but get a larger file. I've experienced that all too much at my previous job, when working with images. < 1549194744 505683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1549194781 990881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, brotli was a good demonstration of that phenomenon. < 1549194785 213403 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same happens when you're compressing stuff with a sane modern compressor like 7z -- not really when you're compressing with the ancient gzip format, we have encoders that are good and as fast as you go with gzip. < 1549194839 958762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use 7z a -mx=3 foo.7z to compress fast, or 7z a -mx=5 foo.7z to compress normally (-mx=5 is actually the default for 7z output), or 7z a -mx=0 to not compress at all. < 1549194846 9854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hmm, or which was the zlib compatible compressor that traded compression speed for size? I may be mixing those up.) < 1549194870 679827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, admittedly with gzip you still have an option to not compress at all, and that is faster < 1549194890 999457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nope, you get 7z which compresses gzip both slightly better and slightly faster < 1549194917 21553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zopfli is it < 1549194917 537198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the problem with gzip is that it's really old, the tradeoff built into it is that you could compress worse if you have very little RAM, but these days nobody has that little RAM < 1549194935 633627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other Swiss bakery product) < 1549194989 251928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Under default settings, the output of Zopfli is typically 3–8% smaller than zlib's maximum compression, but takes around 80 times longer." < 1549195070 142204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe PNG was the main target, as you basically wrote.) < 1549195145 995558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I had not heard of Guetzli. < 1549195257 878548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. What does "little RAM" mean nowadays... a 256MB VPS? < 1549195316 80702 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(up from, I guess, less than 64kb when zlib was developed) < 1549195686 258351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found 128MB VPS offers, and talk about 64MB VPS offers but no live specimens... < 1549195964 401975 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: PNG is a bit more complicated, it has both a zlib layer, and a transformation layer before it, but suret < 1549196206 269734 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1549196439 902455 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549199231 801316 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1549199239 384006 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1549199318 324178 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1549199334 386646 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Client Quit < 1549199334 743514 :FreeFull_!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1549199337 866892 :FreeFull_!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Client Quit < 1549199358 412050 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1549202071 45432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The password of the month is eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen. < 1549202073 233489 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen. < 1549202747 799179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 83{.'eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen.0123456789' < 1549202748 445404 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen < 1549202789 221469 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well done < 1549203207 864166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1549203212 775192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190203.html < 1549203213 636246 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190203.html: b_jonas < 1549204167 416298 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1549204206 292754 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1549204358 736712 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-isqvgvkslqaeypri JOIN :#esoteric < 1549204485 831281 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1549204511 273120 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1549205522 364510 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549207902 247412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-93.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1549208551 404071 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you consider an integral part of df-likes < 1549210150 258432 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1549210591 627165 :Mediphira!~Mediphira@136.0.0.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549210597 501659 :Mediphira!~Mediphira@136.0.0.107 PART :#esoteric < 1549211067 910608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :df = swarf fortress? < 1549211086 660736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s/d/ < 1549211111 723237 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :` df / < 1549211112 366041 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found < 1549211121 45539 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`df / < 1549211121 678741 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ - 0 0 0 - / < 1549211324 966393 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah < 1549211364 15642 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what comes to my mind is high level of simulation and a macro-managing spectator < 1549211374 713697 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do find that pretty vague < 1549211391 635685 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas i do have quite some points for roguelikes < 1549216004 235278 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1549216396 854810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549216975 767179 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that's a little odd. < 1549217000 954787 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Per df, on HackEso there's nothing mounted at /, just in specific subdirectories. < 1549217036 226395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which probably just follows from /proc/mounts. But it's still a bit odd. < 1549217064 538895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $(cut -d\ -f2 /proc/mounts) < 1549217065 401316 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin /usr /dev /lib /sbin /lib64 /hackenv /hackenv/.hg /etc/alternatives /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib /tmp /proc /sys < 1549217089 231930 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` df /bin < 1549217090 28326 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ none 24733776 10662056 12802216 46% /bin < 1549217125 912173 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's reflecting the filesystem where it's actually coming from. < 1549217137 399002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls / < 1549217138 319178 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ sbin \ srv \ sys \ tmp \ usr < 1549217143 394493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he I didn't expect /etc/alternatives < 1549217157 951062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't expect it to be a /mount point/ < 1549217160 312327 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We call umlbox with --base-mounts --mount lib --translate-write /hackenv ... --translate /hackenv/.hg ... --cwd /hackenv. < 1549217166 699945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably that makes it writable when most of /etc is read-only? < 1549217173 600915 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's read-only still. < 1549217183 261882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't mount points have to be over existent directories, anyway? < 1549217186 558334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so you'd need /something/ at / < 1549217186 597836 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's mounted because some commands in /usr go through symlink in /etc/alternatives. < 1549217191 813466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. that's what I meant. but it makes sense if you aim to borrow as much as possible from a surrounding system < 1549217192 417841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can you mount on top of a nonexistent directory? < 1549217206 211233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` update-alternatives --config editor < 1549217207 22910 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :update-alternatives: error: no alternatives for editor < 1549217235 750731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso has no installed editors? < 1549217237 473083 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full conents of etc: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.24182 < 1549217319 1759 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for mounts, yes, it needs to be into an existing directory, umlbox creates the target directory (recursively) when it mounts somthing. < 1549217330 905857 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a root file system, apparently it's just too special to show up in /proc/mounts. < 1549217358 497769 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's an initrd read from a cpio archive on kernel boot.) < 1549217387 521723 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it makes some sense, it's not like there's really a device node for that. < 1549217392 106023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's a bit weird... if you have a chroot like container, / may not be a mount point according to /proc/mounts. < 1549217411 463123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, because the root filesystem is /below/ / < 1549217414 317327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus you can't see the mount point < 1549217437 322084 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is different, though: the command isn't running in a chroot. < 1549217449 859550 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a container? < 1549217460 290646 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, the program is running under the UML kernel. < 1549217470 921729 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From that perspective, there are no containers involved, there's nothing below /. < 1549217479 362867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm reminded of when you have a shell running in a directory all of whose names have been deleted < 1549217482 894535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shell can get rather confused < 1549217511 200284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, simply deleting the name for the directory that the shell knows could be enough) < 1549217520 490656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So UML is lying about its root file system. Yay :) < 1549217522 451401 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole VFS abstraction is that of the UML kernel, and it starts from / which is an initrd, on top of which have been mounted stuff from the host system under the special "hostfs" thing. < 1549217555 365933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if that's how initrd always works. On normal systems / usually gets pivoted into some real filesystem on a block device. < 1549217634 851500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you rarely get to actually experience the initrd environment. < 1549217720 782612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had that experience recently... but no working keyboard, so I didn't get the chance to actually explore... < 1549217801 264348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I later realized that I do still have a PS/2 keyboard which would have worked... but by then I had resolved my problem, which was udev not initializing the host controller or something similarly desastrous.) < 1549217831 506494 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no host controller -> no USB, no SATA, no root device... no system boot.) < 1549217901 503791 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1549218070 442957 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the container (using systemd-nspawn) where the UML kernel runs, seems like there's an entry in /proc/mounts that says /dev/vda2 is mounted as /, even though that's really just the /var/lib/machines/dysnomia directory of that filesystem. But it's a separate mount namespace, which I think is a little different from a chroot. < 1549218094 674825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mount namespaces are more thorough than chroots < 1549222477 474143 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1549223510 668912 :LKoen!~LKoen@176-151-31-205.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric > 1549223659 479866 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sollyucko 5* 10New user account < 1549225347 82490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1549226420 849137 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone recommend an OSS project I might enjoy contributing to that has a predominantly non-US user/contributor/maintainerbase? < 1549226439 710861 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1549226660 437616 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : who the f decided the “kilogram” was a base unit <-- iirc it was done because if you use the gram, a lot of the derived units get very inconvenient size scales - so it was either adding a kilo- to that one, or other prefixes to a lot of others. < 1549226694 119859 :pikhq_!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or using the centimeter as a base unit. < 1549226713 165797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, there was that < 1549226747 677893 :pikhq_!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though honestly many of those derived units were inconvenient. < 1549226753 365900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could have given a new name to the kilogram. like, call it a "ton" or a "pound" or an "ounce" or something. < 1549226777 305464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a "euro", that word was still free back then, they'd have priority < 1549226777 851925 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cgs! < 1549226783 980037 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used cgs in undergrad E&M < 1549226788 911170 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a little wacky < 1549226799 218658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously then we'd end up having to have a currency with a bad name, like "european union kilogram" or something < 1549226804 432313 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the units don't directly correspond to SI because the physical constants are folded in differently < 1549226811 549084 :pikhq_!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit tricky though, since the derived units only started getting used much by the time the kilogram was already well-established. < 1549226814 140011 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilogrexit < 1549226825 278867 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring back micromicrofarads < 1549226875 154782 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, I know. they have units with square root of meter times square root of second in them < 1549226895 876695 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an important measure in EE which is like dB / sqrt(Hz) < 1549226911 432147 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it V / sqrt(Hz) < 1549226914 527478 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for noise < 1549226969 206684 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :“ohms per square” is a good one < 1549227116 849368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but CGS is internally consistent, so it's at least better than measuring blood pressure in micrometers of mercury, car speed in kilometers per hour, electricity bill in kilowatt hour, airplane height in feet, airplane distance in miles, < 1549227137 932788 :pikhq_!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nautical miles < 1549227155 482711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1549227185 653543 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes aviation uses statute miles < 1549227215 311898 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes it uses feet < 1549227219 202885 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :because reasons < 1549227242 407787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes meters or kilometers < 1549227321 622833 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :blood hormone levels are measured in units like pg/mL and ng/dL < 1549227321 849417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we have food energy in kilocalories, astronomical distances within the solar system in astronomical units, outside the solar system in light years, < 1549227349 668348 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to think kWh was stupid, and especially kWh/day, but they are very convenient in practice < 1549227355 958584 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with Wh vs J < 1549227395 831040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the phone bill counts call lengths in minutes < 1549227398 479196 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :kWh/day is nice because it implies that it’s an average instead of instantaneous < 1549227440 943756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't know what kind of project you would enjoy to contributing to. And by non-US what country you may mean? Some projects (such as my own) currently have only myself as contribution/maintenance and I am Canadian. But I don't know if that is what you want or not. Nor am I sure how to find out. < 1549227453 243128 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking larger projects < 1549227455 855707 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: yeah < 1549227524 297909 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much of larger projects about if it is predominantly non-US or not. (Unless you can read/write in languages other than English, in which case you might more easily find some) < 1549227627 819201 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Words "ton", "pound", "ounce" mean different units than kilogram. However, there is another word for kilogram is "grave" < 1549227670 360085 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a metric ton is the same as a Mg < 1549227692 674095 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, although I don't like the term "metric ton" or "tonne". I prefer to call that a "megagram" < 1549227701 722556 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what unit's really annoying? "mil" i.e. 1/1000 in < 1549227713 190483 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used in electronics and locksmithing and some other fields < 1549227722 6758 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i prefer "thou" to avoid confusiong with mm < 1549227796 193869 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that’s a weird one < 1549227819 794662 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 mil trace, 6 mil plastic sheeting, 6 thou tolerance < 1549227852 67361 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :also “tenth” apparently means 0.0001in < 1549227862 840121 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It should be obvious to know what "megagram" means even if you have not seen it before. I used "megagram" before I have seen it used, too. This is contrary to "tonne" which I don't like.) < 1549227893 101595 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i guess puts it in the same group as “fifth” and “eighth” of fractional words that have a specific meaning c.c < 1549227914 66968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you care if the OSS project is predominantly non-US? < 1549227935 245404 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :long story < 1549227941 43452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so never mind that < 1549227943 839431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1549230570 1953 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cellular automata are not a good model for general turing complete computation because they require infinite space. network automata/communicating automata are, however, because they only require unbounded queues. < 1549230668 160662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, I've heard of those US units. < 1549230724 86910 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: what's the important difference? you can easily emulate a TM with an unbounded queue < 1549230727 59238 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or two stacks, but not one) < 1549230745 413621 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at any point in time only a finite number of TM / CA cells are non-blank < 1549230751 326110 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as only a finite number of elements exist in the queue < 1549230770 886951 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do network automata work < 1549230901 147355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a rule that would set all CA cells to something non-blank. But it'd still be a finite amount of information. < 1549231016 688125 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that's my point. imagine you were to simulate a cellular automata with infinite space. you'd need to start at the "top left" of the world (assuming a 2D CA), and you'd need to traverse to the "bottom right", but in order for you to encode a turing machine within a CA, it needs to have the ability to propagate to the bottom-right, right? < 1549231041 247328 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, blank cells have the potential to become non-blank cells, which means we need to traverse every cell naively. < 1549231062 884722 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means a single update, again naively, of a CA with infinite space... never completes. < 1549231083 714674 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's the most naive algorithm < 1549231094 672284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no top left of an infinite grid, so you can't start there < 1549231106 462661 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can easily keep track of a bound on the non-blank region of each timestep < 1549231115 104719 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and expand it by the window size on each iteration < 1549231126 953792 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make it infinite only in one direction then there can be one top left < 1549231130 939562 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I take the turing machine model. turing originally specified that his tape was left-bounded, right-unbounded. < 1549231139 370037 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :same applies to a theoretical turing-complete CA < 1549231154 601696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I missed the first half of the conversation < 1549231163 350325 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: right. you could totally do that. but that implies some extra information than _just_ the things you need to simulate the CA. < 1549231185 184610 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you're saying that queue automata are slightly easier to implement than TMs / CAs < 1549231188 186638 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I guess I agree < 1549231191 478744 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't seem very important < 1549231194 18414 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you need to keep track of how much of that space you realistically need to cover. < 1549231210 307898 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: were you trying to explain HashLife sometime? < 1549231222 594269 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot how it works < 1549231232 564898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably? Hashlife is TG < 1549231234 779946 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( he made a hash out of it ) < 1549231262 495884 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :network automata are essentially CAs (if you see CAs as networks of finite state machines that can read neighboring people's states), but the difference is each cell has a queue (or a pair of queues) sitting between it and its neighboring cells. < 1549231263 560595 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-out < 1549231275 408339 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :smoke hashlife erryday < 1549231283 576105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't explain it on this scow phone keyboard, though < 1549231288 992154 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can say that the distance (or queue length) needs to be unbounded to simulate a TM, so we can make due with a finite amount of cells. < 1549231387 969685 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :network automata as informally defined above represent a generalization of both queue automata and cellular automata: you can imagine two sliders for queue length and number/topology of cells, and depending on the slider position (say, queue length 1, lattice topology, infinite cells) you either get CAs, or regular queue automata (unbounded queue, single queue, single node). < 1549231443 278046 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular queue automata with just a single queue and a single "processing node"/FSM/cell/whatever hooked up to it are an extreme case. FSMs linked in a lattice or some other topology, i.e a CA, represent another extreme case. < 1549231559 411726 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1549231617 532223 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1549231644 482766 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1549231681 336497 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1549231774 162941 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1549232257 2894 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1549232281 784227 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1549233078 290177 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1549233205 279179 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1549233554 529927 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1549233554 613027 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1549233554 613099 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1549234013 101033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hashlife is easier to understand with a 1D automaton, I think. < 1549234100 704996 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1549234119 30914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 64-2*28 < 1549234119 630208 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 8 < 1549234198 482778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1549234692 27336 :LKoen!~LKoen@176-151-31-205.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1549234777 696572 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1549234778 821962 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen. < 1549234783 974502 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*twitch* < 1549234785 459065 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh? < 1549235460 449714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't me this time, I swear < 1549235473 278674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set last month's password, not this month's < 1549235938 778592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 1{::p. 1 0 _1 _1 < 1549235939 434778 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: _0.877439j0.744862 _0.877439j_0.744862 0.754878 < 1549236141 532653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 1{::p. _1 _1 0 1 < 1549236141 631553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1549236142 167906 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.32472 _0.662359j0.56228 _0.662359j_0.56228 < 1549236148 240627 :b_jonas_!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1549236184 581375 :b_jonas_!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu NICK :b_jonas < 1549236189 489659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 1{::p. _1 _1 0 1 < 1549236190 140595 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.32472 _0.662359j0.56228 _0.662359j_0.56228 < 1549236323 61088 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.127.190.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1549236340 742601 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.127.190.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1549236462 133521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So say you have a 1D automaton, where every tick, every cell updates based on its state and its two neighbors. < 1549236517 401877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can store a chunk of size 2^n as a complete binary tree, where the left and right children point to chunks of size 2^(n-1) < 1549236532 965837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you just have 1 and 0 cells for the 2^0 case. < 1549236631 528956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hashlife calls that a "macro cell". < 1549236677 716433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These things are immutable, so you can make it a graph instead of a tree with sharing. That's the "hash" in "hashlife". < 1549236732 935292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called a "macro cell" because it's a bit like a big cell. In particular, it has two neighbors, and its state after one tick depends only on its own state and the state of its two neighbors. < 1549236836 842912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the nice thing about macro cells is that after a small number of ticks, most of the internal cells don't depend on the state of the neighboring cells, because information can only propagate at the "speed of light". < 1549236850 552264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? trillion < 1549236851 549202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :trillion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1549236889 497198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can compute part of the future of a macro cell in isolation, regardless of its environment. (This is useful because macro cells are shared, so they might exist in multiple environments.) < 1549236908 662440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that part make sense? < 1549237143 89009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? organ < 1549237144 113367 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :organ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1549237157 601436 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1549237360 78227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: uh-oh. < 1549237427 795235 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg password < 1549237429 362930 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11708:2019-02-03 learn The password of the month is eigthy-three characters long but contains no special characters except for a hyphen. \ 11684:2019-01-01 learn The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible". \ 11653:2018-12-01 learn The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS". \ 11646:2018-11-01 learn The password of the month is most forgettable. \ 11622:2018-10-02 learn The password of th < 1549237553 432038 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1549237688 836612 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: *you should be scared* < 1549237711 626779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although i fear you haven't even noticed why) < 1549237722 747860 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1549237732 321332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't noticed why either. < 1549237737 922868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "." isn't part of the password, is it? < 1549237743 693935 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ah so it's hash as in hash consing < 1549237748 169580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1549237753 905690 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lazy eval < 1549237770 12409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's no laziness so far. < 1549237771 265270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the idea of in place updates for data that is potentially shared < 1549237774 450468 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1549237788 502486 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1549237790 429509 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some more possible variant for Scrabble can be alternate geometry, such as hex or cylinder. Some more possibilities include other kind of multipliers on squares. In addition to letter multipliers and word multipliers, can also have turn multipliers. Also, the multipliers could also be negative and/or fractions. A variation I recommend is memoryless wildcards. < 1549237790 826494 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, go on < 1549237807 725571 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like memoryless wildcards variant? < 1549237816 235975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can compute some extra data for these nodes and easily compute it for the entire graph. < 1549237828 452114 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you can put a count on each node which is the sum of the counts of the left and right nodes. < 1549237841 69821 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if you have 2^100 cells or something you can compute it pretty quickly. < 1549237853 438673 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well the . isn't what i'm twitching at, anyway < 1549237879 814367 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see it. < 1549237882 256321 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the eigthy? < 1549237902 657656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1549237915 608480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's a clever trick to mitigate against dictionary attacks. < 1549237924 439105 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE < 1549237931 378648 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: count of what? < 1549237941 769856 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is there a good pseudocode of this algorithm? < 1549237951 330459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: The number of active cells, sorry. < 1549237957 591111 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1549237960 404087 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why does that help? < 1549237982 153068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess count doesn't help but the point is that you can annotate these things with extra data based on their children. < 1549237994 791686 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and another variation is that wildcards can be reclaimed if you spend a turn to replace it with the same letter tile from your hand. plus there's a scrabble-like game that requires a different hardware, < 1549238002 310813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure about pseudocode. I think it's best explained by drawing. < 1549238038 442350 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can stack a tile over another tile, only the letters written on the top tile on each square must valid words in every segment, and the scoring is changed. < 1549238043 644279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: next month make one of these hth https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19003644 < 1549238057 552793 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, I have read about the variation with reclaiming. You can even combine that with memoryless wildcards < 1549238097 817000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So if you have a macro-cell, say of size 8, [abcdefgh] < 1549238099 553706 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here played bananagrams? < 1549238104 612457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have hth < 1549238108 353790 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like scrabble but with no board and also not very much like scrabble < 1549238116 342738 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think writing an AI for it would be pretty hard. I've thought about it some < 1549238130 872060 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can think of uncertainty coming in from the sides tick by tick: < 1549238143 793619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdefgh < 1549238147 978693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :?bcdefg? < 1549238148 354733 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1549238151 601786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :??cdef?? < 1549238153 262668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: wait, which kind of memoryless wildcard? the one where you can count the wildcard tile as any letter of your choice after each move you make, or the one where in addition you can make it count as different letters horizontally and vertically? < 1549238153 692551 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1549238173 791047 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but yes, reclaiming the joker works better with memoryless joker < 1549238259 420207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The rule I was thinking of (I made up, although others may have made it up independently) is: It has to represent the same letter horizontally and vertically, but you can change what letter it is during your turn as long as it still forms a valid word. If you extend the word, the same letter must be valid in both the old and new words. < 1549238395 803806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, that's even more restricted than what I thought of