< 1551571205 175927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you probably missed this global message: http://paste.debian.net/1071134/ < 1551571227 538490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I want coroutines that compile to state machines instead of stack switching. < 1551571251 242314 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and are the messages working? >:) < 1551571260 236288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suppose that's why it stopped for now. For anybody reading this in the future: Freenode enabled some global server-side filtering for PRIVMSG.) < 1551571265 469007 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan < 1551571276 321606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, I know, the wrote about that < 1551571302 587521 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ??? < 1551571365 420578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: http://freenode.net/news/spamfilter < 1551571372 964178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :from 2018-09 < 1551571389 891061 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. NOTICE #esoteric :oerjan unquieted $~a < 1551571389 891107 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric -q :$~a < 1551571396 627905 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan < 1551571405 797849 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :again? < 1551571407 652870 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, i don't need op for this < 1551571411 13817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were past that < 1551571423 933032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: again what? < 1551571446 503198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :again quieting users without account < 1551571458 254413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I just don't understand how you writing about this at some arbitrary point in the past is relevant to answering a question that arose just now. < 1551571484 520513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I wasn't writing about it < 1551571485 269526 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1551571489 576902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode staff was < 1551571514 139011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the server-side spam filter < 1551571521 275695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm also more easily annoyed right now than I should be. The "for the future" comment was because the paste will expire. < 1551571545 212400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i added it yesterday just in case while waiting for freenode to solve it globally < 1551571565 181176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: meh, I probably just don't notice the spam < 1551571567 843813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a mental filter < 1551571634 851076 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A6fsBqOHg < 1551571674 851328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enviable. I need /ignore for that... < 1551571703 951976 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :added 痩痴瘍療癒癖皆盆 < 1551571871 840284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mostly likely they didn't get around to this channel this time, anyway < 1551571875 858856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-ly < 1551571910 369300 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc last time they were using ridiculously annoying colors, unless that was a different spammer < 1551571946 480255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and large messages < 1551572058 142490 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xmkadisliuchmlbs QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1551572138 773943 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a009d5f0bec31c46ef9.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1551572200 685681 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't get to this channel but they were claiming that exherbo linux was "linuc for pedophiles" < 1551572266 644341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think a compiler is still allowed to try very hard to avoid allocations. < 1551572289 636888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I just want a struct, man < 1551572290 459084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :twh < 1551572307 638026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1551572327 476282 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/I/i/ < 1551572328 496152 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cruel world; we hardly ever get what we want. < 1551572337 906264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when we use C++. < 1551572390 775694 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551572465 438075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok either my memory is toast (PLAUSIBLE) or the mezzacotta comics are no longer unchanging. writing down the start of some recent ones to recheck tomorrow. < 1551572478 859219 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, the _colors_, those I don't display using the irc client. < 1551572501 159304 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome < 1551572502 610858 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04Welcome 07to 08the 09international 02hub 06for 13esoteric 04programming 07language 08design 09and 02deployment! 06For 13more 04information, 07check 08out 09our 02wiki: 06. 13(For 04the 07other 08kind 09of 02esoterica, 06try 13#esoteric 04on 07EFnet 08or 09DALnet.) < 1551572536 844972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :دnet < 1551572558 674916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Фnet < 1551572577 155765 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1551572577 683056 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1551572929 871203 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551572952 725193 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551574312 335042 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551574334 180855 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551575290 167663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551575308 92511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: I had an idea like Poolshark myself a while ago, but it was much more ambitious and I couldn't make it work < 1551575331 518443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the language as you've written it, though, it would be clearly TC if not for the requirement that the mirrors that make up the region have to be connected < 1551575334 881423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, Turing-hard, anyway < 1551575338 945647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as pointed out, it's not obvious it's computable < 1551575396 598846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is to write a program so that the angle of the bouncing ray is always known (except in very small areas that act as lenses), and you encode a rational number in its position/displacement < 1551575400 764942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohai < 1551575417 487141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can effectively build a divmod-counter machine < 1551575424 106936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas < 1551575437 14092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that mario galaxy stuff? < 1551575462 860260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's the right model for a computable function on computable reals? < 1551575462 976245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does Mario Galaxy have to do with this? besides, now you mention it, probably being TC in its own right < 1551575482 273912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a sort of two-way dialogue between the caller and the function, and it seems like it'd be nice to model it explicitly. < 1551575489 367888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a very hard question, because equality of computable reals is not decidable < 1551575497 776108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mario galaxy has a part where mario walks in a straight line on the surface of a polyhedron, and there was something somewhere about how the long term behavior of that is hard to compute < 1551575510 624620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't require it to be decidable. < 1551575515 551173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want an explicit model for two-way dialogues that implement functions, though, look up "game semantics", that's pretty much exactly what game semantics is for < 1551575531 237029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, simpler question: What's the right model for a computable function on conatural numbers? < 1551575554 601367 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A conatural number is either a natural number or infinity. < 1551575557 91136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a weird field, the basic ideas of game semantics are applicable in a huge number of fields and it's really easy to prove things with it, but all the terminology is terrible < 1551575576 779829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: A program that either prints some finite number of 1s and halts, or prints 1s forever. < 1551575582 843557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that doesn't surprise me < 1551575615 264997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what facilities do we have for /reading/ these numbers? that seems relevant here < 1551575634 673491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have to read them a digit at a time, like a finite state machine (thus we can't distinguish ∞ from an unknown large number)? < 1551575634 757029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm looking for a nice model. Effectively all these things are equivalent, but the way you express them is very different. < 1551575641 318286 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Yes. < 1551575667 638797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like you can only read a computable real to a finite precision at a time. < 1551575698 449315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the paper I'm currently working on at work (as in, right now), I formalized something like this as a function for which prefixes of the input produce prefixes of the output < 1551575709 966128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if f(x::y)=z, then f(x) is a prefix of z < 1551575713 517620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean reading them in unary? < 1551575717 980158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: is sequence concat < 1551575720 201672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: doesn't matter < 1551575727 115000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, conatural numbers are represented in unary the way I put it. < 1551575744 313493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also say that you can ask it "are you <= n?" for any n. < 1551575751 566505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some other scheme. < 1551575753 550115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, it matters in that you can have different infinities if you use a larger base < 1551575761 957540 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You know the "seemingly impossible functional programs" thing? < 1551575772 362920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dyadic numbers or something < 1551575772 760632 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equality of total predicates on conatural numbers is decidable. < 1551575777 947075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: very well, the person who invented it works at my department < 1551575783 519701 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHich person? < 1551575800 693087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Escardó. < 1551575804 392734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know he was there. < 1551575806 57563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Martin Escardó < 1551575814 18310 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I seem to remember I saw that somewhere < 1551575821 856218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also was the internal examiner for my PhD < 1551575823 903867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then you know what I'm getting at here. < 1551575827 410478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551575835 581276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, fancy < 1551575874 189800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe my vague argument is, the whole "seemingly impossible" thing comes from having a complicated model for computation. < 1551575898 150473 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just had Turing machines, you could simulate the predicate, and see what questions it asks you. < 1551575924 479402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is also awkward but in a different way.) < 1551575958 606231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a less impossible-seeming program, but related, is the worst-case comparison predicate < 1551575968 15492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that? < 1551575986 670244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's specified as follows: suppose you have a comparison sorting algorithm that never makes redundant calls to the comparison predicate < 1551576007 818264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst-case comparison predicate will cause any such sorting algorithm to take as long as possible to sort the list < 1551576029 94542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it does it by choosing how to compare the list elements based on what the sorting algorithm is asking it, i.e. dynamically invents a worst case as it goes) < 1551576067 210001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's related, sure. < 1551576084 207372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to me that a nicer model of this might remove the nesting and simulation and so forth. < 1551576115 140095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I give ask f for an approximation of f(x) within a precision, it just asks me for an approximation of x within some precision. < 1551576137 646348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PPCG had a question about writing automatic counterexample generators for purported halting problem solvers; that was also a pretty similar idea < 1551576139 417925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that it asks me explicitly, rather than with a "callback" or something the way it's usually modeled, by asking x. < 1551576162 912618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there such a model? < 1551576221 910687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, game semantics is quite good at modelling the "you ask a question of a value, it gives you an answer" < 1551576233 594212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although one problem is that it's more like a general framework for model-building, rather than a specific model < 1551576241 996882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1551576271 495984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is communication complexity a more specific model, for when you care more about the details? < 1551576313 369482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think thinking of computable functions on computable reals as a two-way channel helps here. < 1551576317 696826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't heard the phrase "communication complexity" before, but if it means what you'd expect from the two individual words forming it, then yes < 1551576382 531951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... < 1551576387 531745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's not called that then? let me check < 1551576400 431187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the Zoo < 1551576434 166575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Complexity_Zoo:P#pcc definitely says "communication complexity" < 1551576479 356030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wouldn't expect to have heard of it < 1551576486 960015 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange that you haven't heard of it < 1551576502 168887 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551576524 180758 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551576557 873060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, I generally study computability classes more than complexity classes < 1551576589 677745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551576595 765356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in the fields I've been working in, people rarely do things like Huffman-coding the various possible messages that can be sent between the parts of a program, and doing that is required for communication complexity to be meaningful < 1551576623 718056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that said, the Verity compiler needs to come up with explicit codings because it's generating physical hardware rather than mathematical objects, but I haven't put much effort into optimising that) < 1551576639 710319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't have to actually do the Huffman coding, more like just make proofs about ap.. < 1551576642 712238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1551576645 234077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1551576649 564584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :growth rates < 1551576659 261645 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :asymptotics < 1551576732 231105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, because you don't care about constant factors < 1551576748 688232 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1551576751 913265 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all these "seemingly impossible" things rely on compactness in some sense. < 1551576762 528178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as there are a finite number of possible messages, you could even use one-hot and it wouldn't change the complexity, you're just multiplying by a constant < 1551576777 929829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think I understand the computational content of compactness very well. Do you? < 1551576793 745436 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551576802 867900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, topology is one of the fields I don't really know much about at all < 1551576817 275134 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551576834 842868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Escardó wrote that thing about synthetic topology which I've only read part of. < 1551576839 62316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Jules Verne's ''Pilot du Danube'', the band of evil guys has a person captured, but then the leader bad guy has doubts about the identity of the prisoner. however, he decides on just trying to ask about the appearance of the prisoner from a minion, rather than visiting him in person, < 1551576842 519960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I ought to read it properly. < 1551576879 390828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he argues that he doesn't want the prisoner to recognize him and know that he's the leader of the bad guys. but that makes no sense, because they could just put a blindfold on the prisoner, as they've done when they took him to the secret hiding place. < 1551576997 26352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we do know (out of universe) that the band leader would have recognized him > 1551577011 404152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALLSCII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60210&oldid=60205 5* 03Cortex 5* (+331) 10 < 1551577937 883838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: actually, thinking more about the seemingly-impossible thing, the reason it works on Cantor and not Integer is /because/ Cantor is general enough that it's hard to write total functions on it < 1551577967 963460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Integer, your program can have an infinite decision tree and still be finite on any particular integer < 1551577995 461491 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1551578001 323699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on Cantor, your program must have a finite decision tree, because if it had any infinite branch, you could pick a value in Cantor for which it would go down the infinite branch forever and never decide (thus would be non-total) < 1551578005 937696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being total on a conatural number is a very strong restriction. < 1551578009 782352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551578010 557262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or on an infinite bit stream, sure. < 1551578071 571588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that's what you mean by compactness < 1551578084 759967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think once you realise that, all the details of actually implementing functions like find become mostly irrelevant, they're basically just methods of empirically determining what the decision tree is < 1551578097 94370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and comparing the trees is trivial once you know what they are < 1551578147 331235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess a good model of total functions Cantor → x is as actual listings of all possible tree branches < 1551578189 541381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they're really irrelevant. < 1551578190 135257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's a proper denotational semantics, in the sense that each function has only one denotation, and two functions with the same denotation are equal (it's also fully abstract, i.e. each denotation corresponds to some function) < 1551578212 144631 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, how about this: If you have predicates on some arbitrary type T, (T -> Bool), what do you demand from T in order to implement find? < 1551578270 514142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, this is one of the cases where I think I know what the answer is, but don't have words available in any natural language to explain it < 1551578311 617025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(edwardk probably knows) < 1551578332 164025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I think the answer is "compactness" or maybe a little more than that. < 1551578389 364563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the logic kind of compatness has anything to do with the calculus kind of compactness, other than the name? the logic one has the theorem that if any finite subset of a first order axiom system is satisfiable then the whole thing is satisfiable; the calculus kind says that a continuous function from a bounded closed subset of R^n is uniform continuous. < 1551578395 332086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of those compactnesses are very useful. < 1551578442 490450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the calculus one comes up all the time in proofs; the logic one comes up all the time in heuristics. < 1551578464 896939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wonder why the name is the same < 1551578469 238577 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm apparently today is Cantor's birthday < 1551578489 524797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably some crazy logic reason behind it. < 1551578523 684014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the topology kind of compactness is equivalent to "For any S of closed sets, if the intersection of any finite subset of S is nonempty, then the intersection of S is nonempty". < 1551578540 368726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :set < 1551578612 365817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you put it like that, I think it's the property I was looking for < 1551578622 633428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't get there from the normal definition of compactness though < 1551578647 209813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you write find with that? < 1551578650 654461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1551578702 423704 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1551578732 160127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I should read up on the Baire thing at some point and understand it at least a little < 1551578740 393168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which thing? < 1551578746 305569 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Baire category theorem < 1551578775 430771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what it says, but it's some topological property of the set of real numbers that lets you prove some things < 1551578790 841203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The original motivation for thinking about these things is the fact that integration of computable functions is computable. < 1551578804 449977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which wasn't obvious to me until I thought of it in these other terms. < 1551578897 137234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm interested in knowing whether or not Analogia is computable < 1551578903 722450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're making it sound like it is < 1551578916 584995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it wouldn't follow directly from that result < 1551578936 383718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fwiw, I'm still uncertain whether or not it's TC; it's very easy to accidentally use an operation Analogia doesn't have in your attempted proof) < 1551579024 907070 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: in case it wasn't obvious from shachaf's statement, both of those are special cases of the topological one < 1551579046 348115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :formfeed, huh < 1551579050 291424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, both of what are special cases of what? < 1551579058 400450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of the compactness theorems? < 1551579093 570630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551579098 417836 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or of the concept < 1551579128 556424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed bounded intervals are topologically compact, from which you can prove the uniform continuity thing < 1551579138 458861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, in that case the concept is clear < 1551579145 974194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the concept is in logic though < 1551579200 195493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the calculus compactness also has the handy corollary that such functions are bounded) < 1551579225 718289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway I think the answer is probably something close to compactness as stated, but more computational. < 1551579234 502732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe overtness is also involved?? < 1551579252 559588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that boundedness is weaker than we want, because I know at least one case when the compactness helps even though we know boundedness in advance) < 1551579534 567530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also had a totally different maths question, but I forgot what it was < 1551579614 310976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think one way of interpreting the logical compactness is to say that a "point" is a maximal set of consistent propositions, and then each proposition corresponds to the closed set of all points satisfying it < 1551579676 339704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but what's the topology to which that is closed? < 1551579703 141498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that trying to defined the topology with a co-base? < 1551579784 511788 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1551579837 128373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1551579857 313931 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can join propositions with OR, you can just take propositions as the co-base, i think < 1551579859 908412 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551579883 377660 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551580891 483718 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here know about statistics < 1551580939 442570 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some data and want to answer the question "do these data appear to be normally distributed" < 1551580947 988547 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good way to do it? < 1551580953 737132 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551580962 18503 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about the Kolmogorov-Smirnov test, it sounds like it does exactly this, but I've never used it before < 1551580989 892777 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not used it before either, so I don't know. < 1551581004 873972 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistics honestly left my head after I finished that class. < 1551581015 400447 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which made stochastic modelling... interesting. < 1551581055 118631 :orbitaldecay!44215d4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.33.93.74 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1551581235 744774 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok there's a whole article about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normality_test < 1551581280 468825 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my application, each dataset is a time series of the received signal strength on a particular radio frequency over time < 1551581312 682725 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to distinguish frequencies that are in use from those which are not. < 1551581332 403842 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's what it looks like https://i.imgur.com/Gwaz5p9.png (frequency on horizontal axis, time on vertical) < 1551581337 331962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: why would the received signal strength be normal distributed? < 1551581351 307972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an unused frequency that is < 1551581356 300062 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551581366 48191 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but many noise processes are? < 1551581370 547182 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a default assumption < 1551581379 152567 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551581414 184198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very convincing, but I guess you could try if it works for your application < 1551581414 481339 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first attempt at solving this problem, which worked okay, is simply to take the standard deviation of each time series (each column in the plot) < 1551581446 894463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the active frequencies are those which are above a certain threshold std. dev. < 1551581554 163227 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and are not within 16 kHz of a frequency with greater std. dev.) < 1551581673 661443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you looking for modulated EM signals originating from extraterrestrial civilizations here? < 1551581677 620394 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1551581699 871865 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I suppose it's not completely unlike that :P < 1551581710 945906 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no I'm just looking at which ham radio frequencies are in use locally, and when < 1551581773 199363 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have got a little computer in my living room which scans the whole 2m band (144 - 148 MHz) every 4 seconds and logs the power levels < 1551581832 279221 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can see some frequencies receive a lot of power all the time, probably due to manmade interference from the thousands of electronic devices in proximity, including the computer itself < 1551581852 940367 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is not a well-isolated or low-noise setup) < 1551581870 196661 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of the actual signals on other frequencies are much weaker < 1551581878 317108 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can be distinguished by the fact that they aren't present all the time < 1551581933 185446 :housecarpenter!~housecarp@90.252.251.94 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1551582065 725307 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I bet I can distinguish them from skewness alone < 1551582067 1616 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy-0.15.1/reference/generated/scipy.stats.skew.html < 1551582067 140174 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another simplistic solution is to just subtract the long-term average to remove all stationary noise. < 1551582088 117155 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1551582099 416648 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is smart and very simple < 1551582147 342384 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to overcomplicate things with statistics < 1551582537 787049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only problem is, the background level of power seems to change over time < 1551582631 444438 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is a 25 hour recording: (warning, very tall image) https://ibin.co/w800/4Ys1u47OCtDS.png < 1551582679 986793 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :background noise comes and goes, who knows why. could be aliens, could be a lamp switching on somewhere < 1551582791 162236 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if a very strong signal appears, the RF amplifier automatically decreases its gain, causing an apparent reduction in noise (and signal) on other frequencies < 1551582826 613270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, it's fun to stare at such plots anyway < 1551582929 278895 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the raw data for that plot is a 30 MB gzip'd CSV < 1551582999 463150 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving the power (in dBm) at 4 kHz steps from 144 MHz up to (and not including) 148 MHz < 1551583002 428033 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :generated by the rtl_power utility < 1551583142 113365 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not necessary to tune each individual frequency in sequence, because the RTL-SDR hardware samples a full 2 MHz of spectrum at once. the 4 kHz bins are recovered by fast fourier transform < 1551583300 332331 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :software defined radio is really cool, but I already rambled about that here :P < 1551583361 343650 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1551583421 813703 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of lamps, I've noticed that if I transmit on the 70 cm band (around 440 MHz), the motion-activated floodlight on my deck turns on :P < 1551583531 158316 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got one of those DVB sticks that are allegedly a little useful for SDR, but never really got an antenna of any kind for it. < 1551584478 744016 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, too bad < 1551584480 262938 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fun < 1551587174 159887 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551587456 187225 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1551588065 840874 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1551591778 360480 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Recent14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60211&oldid=59223 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10archive Funciton > 1551591839 197910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60212&oldid=59224 5* 03Ais523 5* (+888) 10/* Archive */ archive Funciton > 1551592347 407996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Current14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60213&oldid=59225 5* 03Ais523 5* (-83) 10featured language blurb for [[Thue]] > 1551592390 539520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Thue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60214&oldid=55414 5* 03Ais523 5* (+22) 10{{featured language}} > 1551592411 48333 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60215&oldid=59227 5* 03Ais523 5* (-111) 10/* List of candidates */ Thue is now featured < 1551592428 493819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, finding good languages to feature is hard < 1551592523 35052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the candidates, either I don't think they were featurable at the moment due to substandard articles, being uninteresting as languages, or being too similar to Funciton; or else I'm personally involved in them or have nominated them, and thus can't make an unbiased judgement < 1551593295 836792 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the answer is to nominate none of them, and make someone else doit < 1551593300 965254 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it even < 1551593315 938066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but admins historically don't update the featured language much < 1551593326 491420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we parked it on brainfuck a while ago because nobody was updating and it seemed like a safe place to park it < 1551593345 335035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one admin updating is an improvement, but means that it's hard to feature languages that that admin was involved in < 1551593356 343141 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551593365 233533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Esolang admins tend to have been involved with lots of esolanguages just due to the nature of the job) < 1551593459 515984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess this would be a good time for a candidate reset > 1551593478 547337 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60216&oldid=60215 5* 03Ais523 5* (-1146) 10/* List of candidates */ candidate reset; we're really due for one of these, I think < 1551593616 333404 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1551593654 51424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the candidate list hadn't been reset since 2012 < 1551593657 845125 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551593682 32603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems plausible that some of the people who posted there have had new ideas about languages they like within the last 7 years < 1551593692 309906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "the featured language was stuck on BF for years" implies a good timing for it > 1551593709 487207 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hooloovoo 5* 10New user account < 1551593755 954721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infrequently" is fair enough, but 7 years is too long > 1551593892 839816 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60217&oldid=60183 5* 03Hooloovoo 5* (+207) 10 < 1551593924 749851 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1551593939 14664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02FerNORo10]]": plagiarism of [[FerNANDo]]; not a copyvio (source is public domain), but this is just an existing language with OR/AND swapped in the spec (and inconsistently so), and the author name changed < 1551594362 310125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1551594401 25426 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nominates all the joke languages
< 1551594492 727612 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a joke language might be good for next month < 1551594511 524709 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :last we featured a language in april it was deadfish < 1551594544 529645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, if you feature joke languages, April is a good time for it < 1551594599 663803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the most interesting joke languages out there? Unnecessary comes to mind < 1551594619 746711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURKEY BOMB is one of the best joke languages but its article is a stub < 1551594676 91955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esme also came to mind, but featuring that would ''not'' be a good idea < 1551594689 596450 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've known merthese for a long time, but I'm not sure it works as a featured lang < 1551594691 555669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :u don say < 1551594812 11758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merthese doesn't have much to distinguish it from the other string-printing loopless imperative languages < 1551594827 736274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good example of those but we might be able to find a better one, if we want to feature most of those < 1551594842 269901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not an esolang genre that's particularly popular among readers of the wiki, though (as opposed to writers) < 1551594860 409459 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1551594872 623888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the article itself is great, though < 1551594952 432764 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's about what I was thinking < 1551594984 524060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I just reread https://esolangs.org/wiki/Merthese and it was even better the second time < 1551594995 666482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is clearly a trainwreck, but it's a trainwreck that's had a lot of love and thought put into it < 1551595030 756185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. first I missed the duplicate commands, and then I missed the resolution of the duplicate commands < 1551595102 448529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess what makes the language great is the development process < 1551595136 896529 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, all the @kerm, @nikky, etc are people who added the extension < 1551595198 19642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even reliably use it as a Deadfish-alike, because the command that increments the accumulator is sometimes interpreted as printing a newline instead < 1551595241 326113 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than x86 < 1551595291 698888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, x86 doesn't have a command for printing newlines at all :-D < 1551595318 870475 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I joined cemetech a bit too late to contribute to it (I guess I could have, but I was a nooob at the time) < 1551595411 528253 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I feel like binary lambda calculus should be extended < 1551595472 914663 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, tromp isn't on < 1551595476 519451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what about HQ9+? we might have to expand the article a bit, but the language itself makes a point in a funny way, and is well-known < 1551595531 763385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you feature a well-known thing < 1551595568 201809 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hichaf < 1551595586 944906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, it depends on what the purpose of featuring languages is < 1551595603 829090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's maybe not well-known enough that every visitor to the wiki knows about it already, but it became well-known for a reason < 1551595614 496412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :higan < 1551595727 774482 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about something competitive like bfjoust? < 1551595816 50953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, BF Joust is definitely featurable < 1551595839 899174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't nominate it because I created the current version (although not the original version) < 1551595858 64221 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nominates it
< 1551595883 471132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :October would be a good month to do the actual featuring for that < 1551596162 228043 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :recently I had a friend link to https://esolangs.org/wiki/SyL < 1551596164 363897 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is grepping through irc logs
< 1551596176 850790 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :response: wow, I feel like that system of numbers is maximally designed to fuck with Japanese speakers < 1551596192 402880 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :(response by timeroot) < 1551596480 505304 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1551596501 276033 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551596526 448040 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1551596548 421276 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551596573 192611 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1551596601 293148 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551596620 65655 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1551596646 283378 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551596659 965935 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else too interesting, some fish, a chicken, other boring ones, etc < 1551596666 593063 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1551596693 469135 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551596713 407394 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1551596939 183868 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551597203 155067 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1551597435 653362 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.121.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551597697 490682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1551599330 387446 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551599668 167442 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.200.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551600888 751542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1551605844 84273 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a009c3c45f4004d98e3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1551606521 157577 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1551606528 774004 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-apdyqpwbxfbiexli JOIN :#esoteric < 1551606829 615563 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1551607083 114791 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1551607287 242863 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Client Quit < 1551607301 91981 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a009c3c45f4004d98e3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 257 seconds < 1551607302 45815 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1551608091 859557 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551610115 267164 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1551610132 671937 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1551610192 63609 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0081cb76a76da0c1a3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1551610434 700192 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a007573fd0fb7ca3620.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1551612338 136294 :magickal!~joe@2605:e000:2415:7200:f03d:7165:766a:fe3e JOIN :#esoteric < 1551612399 49958 :magickal!~joe@2605:e000:2415:7200:f03d:7165:766a:fe3e PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone help? can all magick be considered witchcraft? < 1551612620 562493 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to read the topic < 1551612758 211859 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1551614066 246861 :magickal!~joe@2605:e000:2415:7200:f03d:7165:766a:fe3e PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i c.. < 1551614070 987703 :magickal!~joe@2605:e000:2415:7200:f03d:7165:766a:fe3e PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1551614075 694205 :magickal!~joe@2605:e000:2415:7200:f03d:7165:766a:fe3e PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1551614564 949037 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0081cb76a76da0c1a3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's a cloning factory < 1551614570 35837 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0081cb76a76da0c1a3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the wrong channel too < 1551614822 495718 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-apdyqpwbxfbiexli QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1551615669 333660 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551615790 832420 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1551615808 762325 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1551617701 626868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what framerate and exposure time do you use when measuring the power? < 1551618120 384844 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1551618181 210367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: has /// been featured yet? < 1551618188 305053 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1551619836 509650 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aimqzcoqmprszkfn JOIN :#esoteric < 1551620530 736403 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1551622226 376867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190303.html < 1551622227 869811 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190303.html: b_jonas < 1551622253 750038 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2755886/when-inspiration-strikes/ < 1551622254 418827 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2755886/when-inspiration-strikes/: b_jonas < 1551627071 148316 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1551627618 786043 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aimqzcoqmprszkfn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1551628177 526572 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1551628497 364282 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com < 1551628885 864329 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1551629886 980120 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lfaunijqtyrwqgmf JOIN :#esoteric < 1551630103 325821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'lr'{~?2 < 1551630103 956346 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: r < 1551631707 477109 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.121.0 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1551632336 389097 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551632427 383790 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1551633116 133907 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zuclfcmakuauiozn JOIN :#esoteric < 1551633954 414112 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 𝑕 < 1551633955 631464 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1D455 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9d 91 95 UTF-16BE: d835dc55 Decimal: 𝑕 \ 𝑕 (𝑕) \ Uppercase: U+1D455 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned) < 1551633987 808183 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 𝚨𝚩𝚪𝚫 < 1551633988 960822 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1D6A8 MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL ALPHA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 9a a8 UTF-16BE: d835dea8 Decimal: 𝚨 \ 𝚨 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0391 \ \ U+1D6A9 MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL BETA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 9a a9 UTF-16BE: d835dea9 Decimal: 𝚩 \ 𝚩 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0392 \ \ U+1D6AA MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL GAMMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d < 1551633989 108278 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :𝚬𝚭𝚮𝚯𝚰𝚱𝚲 < 1551634889 581322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it was. < 1551634897 769057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages says that slashes was featured < 1551634919 875419 :testitemqlstudop!~quassel@cpe-67-243-155-185.nyc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1551634959 144304 :testitemqlstudop!~quassel@cpe-67-243-155-185.nyc.res.rr.com PART :#esoteric < 1551634975 344539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, we could consider featuring befunge. afaik ais523 doesn't have much connection to it, but the esolang community at large does < 1551635594 552502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my honored and learned friend fungot, your source code is on whose T-shirt? < 1551635594 835183 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: anyone familiar with the fourstack idea didn't the person who introduced me to it. it routinely takes me 30+ minutes to fall asleep < 1551636001 753036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551636107 301693 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1551636261 105631 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60218&oldid=58624 5* 03B jonas 5* (+543) 10language overview. let me try to improve the description a little so we can feature this. < 1551636320 276578 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1551636412 444422 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60219&oldid=60218 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2) 10move history below the language overview, to make the article a better introduction. < 1551636524 194697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should somehow move the "fungeoid" part out of the introduction, to the history stuff, and make the introd paragraph more informative < 1551636712 687330 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ QUIT :Quit: CHEAPIE! What did you do to the bouncer?! :P (jk) < 1551636717 331017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeoid says "Fungeoids, specifically Befunge, have the canonical goal of being REALLY hard to compile", but that seems to contradict https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge being a fungeoid < 1551636766 288010 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1551637220 972510 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lfaunijqtyrwqgmf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1551637246 384787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60220&oldid=60219 5* 03B jonas 5* (+246) 10mention fungot; remove fungeoids from the first paragraph, they're mentioned later anyway < 1551637321 751069 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` \? fu\ngot < 1551637325 540780 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. < 1551639663 217026 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1551639919 294705 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iamksrunfevodepi JOIN :#esoteric > 1551640519 707488 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60221&oldid=59261 5* 03Cortex 5* (+14) 10 < 1551640530 393111 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1551640994 745931 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60222&oldid=60216 5* 03B jonas 5* (+656) 10/* List of candidates */ > 1551641053 513056 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60223&oldid=60222 5* 03B jonas 5* (+94) 10/* List of candidates */ > 1551641152 154632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Cortex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60224&oldid=60100 5* 03Cortex 5* (+14) 10 > 1551642272 570215 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALLSCII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60225&oldid=60210 5* 03Cortex 5* (+515) 10 < 1551642664 210591 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zuclfcmakuauiozn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1551642920 784187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 29*1.609344 < 1551642921 477742 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 46.671 < 1551643486 296884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I wonder how you could write sane M:tG rules text for a card like this: Three Wise Men / 1GWU / Sorcery / Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a creature card from among them and cast it. When that spell resolves, put three +1/+1 counters on the permanent it becomes. < 1551643997 344265 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it look like OK the way it is < 1551644119 196207 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what do you think could be done to get better efficiency from the low ascii codepoints in utf-8 < 1551644141 407118 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it would be incompatible but how could you do it while preserving the nice properties of utf8 < 1551644149 494496 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can't < 1551644267 531897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i UTF-EBCDIC < 1551644296 810905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a real efficiency problem there? < 1551644404 178423 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: give commonly used codepoints lower values < 1551644464 737360 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: Yes, that reduces the number of bytes needed to encode that number as UTF-8 < 1551644479 138866 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure there's that much of a point. While in principle you could get better efficiency, any such gain would be fairly minimal. < 1551644495 648987 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and you could get more mileage out of just using a common compression algorithm instead. < 1551644545 148402 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1551644590 868305 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can do that < 1551644626 423451 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCS-4! < 1551644719 604443 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, that was my conclusion < 1551644942 573046 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are Unicode encodings which allow binding one-byte codes to frequently used characters for that specific document. but stateful codes are nasty (looking at you, ISO 2022) and I think a separate compression layer would almost always be better < 1551644973 30769 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the best things about UTF-8 is that it's self synchronizing < 1551644995 124978 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and it is compatible with ASCII < 1551645018 752913 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551645323 675224 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. SCSU is kinda cute as a concept, but it's going to be somewhat rare that it's worth it. < 1551645375 747409 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly if you have the need to compress, seperately, many different very short strings. Where "very short" here means "tweet sized".) < 1551645388 743345 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was kinda :psyduck: when some random blog post pointed out to me that 0xC0 is never a valid byte in UTF-8 < 1551645415 596016 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that a lead byte for a surrogate? < 1551645432 923333 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have got the specific byte wrong < 1551645435 462412 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, for an over-long encoding. < 1551645442 352200 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551645451 462141 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: yes, there are four invalid bytes < 1551645454 669773 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0xC0 would be for a two-byte encoding of something under 0x7f. < 1551645460 700714 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There's more than that. < 1551645465 432052 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the lead byte for a multibyte sequence which would have enough leading zeroes to not need a multibyte sequence < 1551645477 700448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, there are two invalid bytes because they would start the encoding of an ascii character, and two invalid bytes because they would start a too long encoding < 1551645482 288231 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0xF5 through 0xFF are also invalid. < 1551645511 230695 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But those are would be used to encode a codepoint over U+10FFFF. < 1551645517 339105 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*those would < 1551645518 241397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, now that they claim that the largest character value can be 0x10FFFF, those are invalid too < 1551645525 894761 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/claim/define/ < 1551645557 530440 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're unlikely to go back on that, since that limitation exists so UTF-16 can work, and UTF-16 is gonna be hard to kill. < 1551645563 393892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'll change that later anyway when they start running out of the 17 planes. currently they only started 3 planes, plus a little bit of one more plane, plus one for non-standard user-defined stuff < 1551645577 898902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people may want to encode non-characters in utf-8, for private purposes like formatting < 1551645600 633127 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so -- UTF-16 is a bit too entrenched. < 1551645616 787875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: true, but then, if they need more space for characters they will do something < 1551645630 555823 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of damage done in the 5-year period when Unicode was 16 bits is staggering < 1551645633 187442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-16 was already entranched when they decided to go for more than the prime material plane < 1551645656 278206 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that was UCS-2 < 1551645665 847039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh so that then < 1551645679 233954 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have some doubts they'll even really need to go much past the assigned planes. < 1551645683 700525 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :wchar_t, etc < 1551645725 143023 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering well over half of the supplementary multilingual plane is unassigned, and the supplementary ideographic plane is running out of CJK characters to encode. < 1551645759 443066 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Codes that are encoding above U+10FFFF are just not going to encode valid Unicode characters, but otherwise it may be considered as valid in some cases. < 1551645786 646165 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: truth < 1551645793 720934 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows, Java, and JavaScript all adopted UCS-2 :( < 1551645811 60905 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mankind will never be free of the scourge of JavaScript < 1551645814 815318 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's with us for the rest of civilization < 1551645820 882221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did they put characters on the astral plane anyway? are those just to make it easier to test that software is compatible with that? < 1551645826 702961 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-16 is helpful when working with Unicode text in JavaScript, since JavaScript strings are sequences of 16-bit characters. < 1551645842 614307 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB, too < 1551645848 720709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: which characters? < 1551645852 9935 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Because the BMP is is almost entirely full. < 1551645858 364151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no no < 1551645868 404283 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Unicode has more than 2^16 (minus surrogate pairs) codepoints, so the astral planes are required < 1551645869 507584 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :webassembly will save us < 1551645869 812828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I mean the astral plane, the one that starts at 0x100000 < 1551645876 193903 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :webassembly will make everything right again < 1551645878 133357 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's not what astral plane means < 1551645884 23448 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's any plane besides the basic plane < 1551645889 902031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bmp < 1551645890 979512 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bmp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1551645892 26678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's also not what prime material plane means, but meh < 1551645894 219704 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :the USB spec says “strings in descriptors shall be Unicode” < 1551645894 282072 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That's private use area. < 1551645903 166052 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1551645903 381838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1551645905 595795 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an irrational loathing for WebAssembly because it's contributing to Rust getting ruined by web hipsters < 1551645910 773947 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :they mean UTF-16, I forget which endianness < 1551645915 885299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that another plane? < 1551645915 944281 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire U+10xxxx plane is a private use area. < 1551645918 412557 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 'we're too boring and shit to put tengwar in unicode proper' area < 1551645919 153353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1551645926 573613 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, haha < 1551645930 995431 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want Cargo to adopt "best practices from NPM", when somebody pointed out that there was no such thing their comment was deleted by moderators < 1551645932 856056 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does sound a bit... mad from what ive heard < 1551645934 221260 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :WebAssembly may be a reasonable VM code, but that doesn't mean that Rust or JavaScript or any other programming language would be avoided < 1551645938 348386 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :criticism is not allowed in the Rust community < 1551645939 150537 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is U+Fxxxx, and U+E000-U+F8FF. < 1551645939 990759 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha i remember that kmc < 1551645957 357603 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because all criticism is "unconstructive" < 1551645959 698767 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was part of the whole 'welcome our new community manager' < 1551645964 501672 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeahhhhhhhh < 1551645971 252557 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :'i dont want to welcome someone who goes around saying kill all men on twitter' < 1551645979 581675 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :'wow banned for misogynist harrassment' < 1551645983 510164 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551645989 845641 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really shouldn't bring it up, because that whole incident upsets me a great deal < 1551646003 620867 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :those kinds of people are why i don't feel comfortable in open source anymore :/ < 1551646003 782174 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's some grade A bullshit though.3 < 1551646029 335495 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it upsets me in principle too ive just positioned myself so they mostly dont matter in my life < 1551646034 798436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you work in open source you do not have to deal with all of the open source projects < 1551646046 605201 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: me too, but I have unresolved trauma re: being trans and stuff < 1551646048 311831 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :paranoid proprietary bullshit has its upsides i suppose < 1551646058 169945 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :being trans fucking sucks, i'll say that much < 1551646078 908501 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods
< 1551646088 941205 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the same time I don't think i'd press a magic button to be not trans < 1551646090 596527 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's complicated < 1551646098 681556 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identity tends to be. < 1551646104 344575 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551646109 476883 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :people tend to be < 1551646112 154110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of the wikipedia page on paperclip optimisation < 1551646113 299005 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(UTF-16 would also be helpful in my proposed X 12 core font system; if the font is a Unicode font, then astral characters are just considered ligatures of the surrogate pairs, so if ligatures are enabled then you can work with Unicode text.) < 1551646130 853263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is X12 the successor to X11? < 1551646142 72066 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway one of my poor naive colleagues was asking me the other day what he was supposed to do with a core dump < 1551646146 487020 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes < 1551646152 845463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: lol < 1551646156 738651 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :load it into GDB! < 1551646158 622828 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are other things too I have proposed to do it) < 1551646166 471635 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :(poor naive = plucked from a stem degree and trained in kdb and little else) < 1551646167 964890 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suspects another zzo38 vapourware project.
< 1551646173 536250 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even run a coredump < 1551646198 39867 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yeah except how much debug info do you think kx systems compile into their binary < 1551646198 120994 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe they're regular files, so rm can handle them < 1551646204 540672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551646209 733701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1551646214 854601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hah < 1551646214 912004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1551646218 107271 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kx 'our entire database package fits into L2 instruction cache!!!!' systems < 1551646221 859569 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs has a "feature" where you can initialize all the bloat, core dump it, and then use that initialized image to start emacs faster < 1551646226 705249 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing of my X12 is that a mouse cursor position is allowed to be null (which is different from zero), although this might not be implemented on all implementations. < 1551646229 625426 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I imagine breaks a lot of modern things like ASLR < 1551646231 535671 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever < 1551646235 39121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but only if you can find them *glares at systemd* < 1551646236 899137 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt that why ais523 invented feather < 1551646239 649147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you have any significant involvement in befunge? I'm asking because of potential featured langauge status < 1551646245 114320 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, the equivalent but with smalltalk < 1551646251 728255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not really any more than the rest of the esolang community < 1551646253 412962 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was that awesome Linux vuln involving coredumping in /etc/cron.d < 1551646264 944933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written a few programs in it, and I wrote an FFI between INTERCAL and Befunge < 1551646267 630871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: there's no such thing as "L2 instruction cache". L2 cache doesn't know the distinction between code and data < 1551646275 952097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't be afraid to feature it < 1551646285 977946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it knows the distinction between reading and writing, but it's still not a separate instruction cache < 1551646293 955466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: are you sure that's universally true... < 1551646294 333559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :great! < 1551646298 497088 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but b_jonas do the guys making acquisition decisions in investment banks know that < 1551646299 217230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no < 1551646304 323206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the cures of the featured language that people make erivatives of it? < 1551646308 808698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but Kx isn't so portable < 1551646310 571349 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think systemd would upset me less if it had actually been designed with clear defined API boundaries between components, permitting alternate implementations. < 1551646324 348301 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get a setuid program to core dump in /etc/cron.d, with a valid crontab entry somewhere in its memory space < 1551646328 818116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, BF was the featured language for ages so we don't have much evidence < 1551646334 65478 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd just upsets me because lennart seems to be an antisocial psycho < 1551646339 897839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, curse, not cures. < 1551646341 991720 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cron will happily skip over megabytes of binary garbage and execute that crontab entry < 1551646343 525676 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also that. < 1551646355 713262 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vspvzkrgabrhkeyk JOIN :#esoteric < 1551646366 798780 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently nobody making decisions in the entire linux world thinks 'hmm maybe we shouldnt give this guy supreme political influence over the entire system' < 1551646389 348597 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ~robustness principle~ < 1551646403 44942 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :p o s t e l ' s ~ l a w < 1551646405 938187 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really the worst thing < 1551646418 162622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think they ported that Emacs "feature" to some portable representation that's compatible with ASLR. < 1551646424 865543 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ok < 1551646434 734075 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean honestly, ESR is still respected in some corners. < 1551646452 644149 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he's a shithead in ways largely orthogonal to software < 1551646458 292246 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't exactly respect ESR but I appreciate some things he's said more than I used to < 1551646473 747809 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lmao i occasionally remember the period of my youth wasted on rationalwiki < 1551646475 535392 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting people to question that requires people to question that maybe an egotistic shithead should be questioned rather than just accepted. < 1551646478 284439 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's just because i hate the wokelords who hate him < 1551646483 232996 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: lol < 1551646484 247963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me repeat my question then. fungot's befunge source code is printed on whose T-shirt? < 1551646484 431746 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no. i think he's normally asleep at this time it was the next thing i need < 1551646487 186288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it is that, hth < 1551646488 409619 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and im like "hmm what was the last thing i did there" < 1551646490 743669 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah < 1551646491 973135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: re Postel's Law, it strikes me that there are two modes in which a program can run: fail fast, and try to make things work even when they're broken < 1551646492 265970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :asleep huh? < 1551646505 153259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is much better for development, and for the future of the system; the latter is better for the present < 1551646513 841278 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i remember that it was using my lingering social status as a high volume shitposter in aid of emily's crusade against ESR < 1551646517 813985 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :live fast, die young, bad code does it well < 1551646535 526594 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean okay, as far as software goes ESR's worst sin is that he just doesn't really... matter. < 1551646542 235360 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551646546 589860 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551646551 410184 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"<--- I'M WITH THOSE GUYS" < 1551646552 677702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: most of my programs are full of asserts and fail fast < 1551646566 502516 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's only influential in terms of writing about software. < 1551646567 271407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :both asserts checking input that I didn't appreciate in advance, and internal bugs < 1551646567 321202 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas david gerard was quite insistent that rationalwiki's take be "this ELITE HACKER GOD WHO BUILT THE INTERNET later went crazy after 9/11" < 1551646578 490005 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and to be fair, some of his writing about software is, well, still worth reading) < 1551646590 176749 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about his dating advice < 1551646590 478831 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still talk to emily... we have a complicated history but I like her < 1551646591 529264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: my preferred principle is to work out what inputs /could/ be correct, in that a) they're not an obvious sign of a bug existing, and b) we can define plausible and unsurprising output in that case < 1551646598 185759 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh, set that on fire. < 1551646600 68460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, when an assert of the first kind triggers, or I anticipate that it will trigger, I make the program more robust for those inputs; < 1551646608 530442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the second kind of assert triggers, I try to fix the bug < 1551646617 204516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then document the function as supporting only those inputs < 1551646620 173120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, fail fast on everything else < 1551646623 220761 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yeah, life hasn't been the kindest to her. < 1551646629 901638 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously. < 1551646634 753771 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither have i, at times < 1551646637 753109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your former type of assert is an interesting idea < 1551646638 723846 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c of my own bullshit < 1551646662 960771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes the asserts even need some extra computation just to detect problems < 1551646670 905772 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: back to earlier topic, EMDR therapy is p. esoteric < 1551646689 79756 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about upsetting things is healing if you move your eyes back and forth while you do it??? < 1551646692 137964 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nobody knows why < 1551646695 426038 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains are weird < 1551646701 766034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :🧠 < 1551646702 696076 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1551646709 425668 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :buffer overflow in eye movement code < 1551646714 540726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this reminds me; a while ago I was looking for a way to determine whether asserts were enabled in Java (so as to produce extra debug information in that case) < 1551646716 901158 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :allows overwriting of upset buffer < 1551646722 555367 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551646724 372131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a good lesson I learned from writing programs is to try to represent data compactly, in the sense that there's no redundancy as in state stored multiple times such that they have to be consistent, because whenever you have redundancy, you often later modify the program and forget about what invariants you wanted to keep < 1551646729 450569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out that the only official method is to write an assert condition with side effects < 1551646739 863690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there are exceptions from this when you need redundancy for efficiency < 1551646739 959521 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best theory I've heard is that it emulates REM sleep, but I don't know how much of an ass-pull that is < 1551646747 129606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean assertsEnabled = false; assert(!(assertsEnabled = true)); < 1551646754 68744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, no ! there < 1551646757 932722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean assertsEnabled = false; assert((assertsEnabled = true)); < 1551646768 113906 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember you introducing me to the bicameral mind thesis ages ago in here kmc < 1551646776 676155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: do you know of public examples of good high-performance api design twh < 1551646781 826243 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there should be multiple assert levels, each of which can be disabled either at runtime or compile time < 1551646783 690886 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has stuck in my head for being particularly interesting even though im 80% sure its total bullshit < 1551646793 378698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's more or less true in C too, because someone might redefine or reundefine _NDEBUG without reincluding < 1551646796 600598 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think I learned of it from Snow Crash < 1551646801 202256 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's almost certainly bullshit < 1551646802 639245 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1551646805 531602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I don't use the actual assert macro from C < 1551646819 5201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, but in this situation, the value of _NDEBUG is what I'd care about more than the actual behaviour of assert < 1551646823 100423 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust's debug logging is kind of nice, you can enable/disable for any subtree in the module tree < 1551646828 760984 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(module/crate tree) < 1551646832 145917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm trying to detect a debug versus release build, not the actual behaviour of the assert macro < 1551646845 627861 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug loggin < 1551646848 342265 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :im crying < 1551646866 855648 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, don't knock printf debugging. < 1551646867 847679 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1551646870 484706 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust has that too < 1551646871 431110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :because at work we have a guy who's the only one who really cares about architecture and gets shit done < 1551646878 861805 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if cfg!(debug) < 1551646881 55068 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1551646894 35476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :look around you is tg < 1551646898 351609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it's the brain" < 1551646902 613700 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he added some debugging code which means that our logs are now 90% duplicated spam < 1551646904 895955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh darn, gmane is not available. I'll have to look if an alternate archive exists for this mail < 1551646913 350544 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfg's can be used as compiler directives, user-defined conditional compilation, or compile-time constants, or build-system rules < 1551646931 59986 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like 'man these log messages are really repetitive and useless, can i disable them' < 1551646931 956291 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :context free grammars are often used as compiler directives < 1551646935 742227 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :'no i find them really useful' < 1551646941 290361 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: look around you is tg < 1551646946 780563 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but now i cant read any other fucking log messages!! < 1551646962 740262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :«if cfg!(debug){...}» looks weird, I'd expect something more along the lines of «#[if(cfg(debug))]{…}» < 1551646964 552161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: yeah, at that point I direct those messages to a separate file < 1551646980 597372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. conditionally compiling, rather than unconditionally compiling dead code (and then presumably optimisingit out) < 1551647003 646991 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a lot of our code alternately use two different logging functions, one of which logs in the local timezone and one of which logs in UTC < 1551647004 65128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: such a thing exists, yes, but only for items, not for statements in rust < 1551647010 145563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to put yoru conditional stuff in a separate function < 1551647010 892292 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is exceedingly confusing < 1551647012 672165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: aimake has something like 4 or 5 verbosity levels for debug logging because some of them are both useful and /really/ spammy < 1551647019 156565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :static if is tg < 1551647034 772431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have two versions of the function, conditionally, with the same name, and call it < 1551647042 877683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should conditional compilation just be a regular if in a meta-level language? < 1551647044 868801 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lawdy < 1551647054 288065 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :“the local timezone” < 1551647062 996723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, that's how it works in C < 1551647070 369129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if is basically just a regular statement in cpp the language < 1551647071 181216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe that's no longer true with the macro advancements now < 1551647075 678727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except CPP is very different from C. < 1551647093 55726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the same language. < 1551647094 129087 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: I have seen some disturbingly large environments where the local timezone ends up mattering... < 1551647096 637460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed; there's no obvious reason other than programmer familiarity why the two languages should be the samea < 1551647096 749018 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :any code in a server that tries to read the “local timezone” should trip an assert < 1551647099 560943 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh me too < 1551647113 736946 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :there’s a test suite at work that only passes if you set your system tz correctly < 1551647116 963486 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s vile < 1551647118 661793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, I was trying to design a language that is preprocessing all the way down, with infinitely many layers, each of which produce a program for the layer below it, and the layer isomorphic to each other < 1551647120 609069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: I think it's a good idea to use capabilities for things like timezones < 1551647130 527147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, if it's the same language, you can reuse code to do compile-time computation and so on. < 1551647131 532378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function is only given access to the timezone if it actually needs it < 1551647133 668630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, the C++ concept guys are trying that. < 1551647135 33470 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kdb has nice concise shortcuts for both UTC and system timestamps < 1551647137 520957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: You've mentioned. < 1551647138 505407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the idea much < 1551647145 783769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: But I want this for practical rather than theoretical reasons. < 1551647149 834884 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A former employer of mine set all their servers to use the timezone of corporate HQ. < 1551647151 20243 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no clue why anyone on our team was dumb enough to use the system tz ones < 1551647163 552287 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: mine too < 1551647176 608029 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if we're talking about the same employer
< 1551647182 25669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: really, timezones aren't even the biggest problem, the largest environment-related issue I see (other than encoding, which is something of a separate topic as correct behaviour is hard to define) is decimal separators < 1551647200 527348 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :a company out of Mountain View that made lots of money from tiny classified ads? < 1551647207 506539 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the one. < 1551647212 384502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the syntax is like #[cfg(debug_assertions)] < 1551647232 955869 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do either. cfg!() is a macro that expands to a boolean constant < 1551647238 348208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have most of the Rust preprocessor syntax memorised < 1551647251 454019 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas #[cfg(...)] is conditional removal of a lexical scope < 1551647254 198812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like #[cfg(debug_assertions)] fn foo() { /* print stuff here */ } #[cfg(not(debug_assertions))] fn foo() {} fn bar() { ... foo() ... } < 1551647270 747915 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1551647271 522056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Rust; I've written a few (small but serious) programs in it and it's almost as fast as writing in a scripting language, but the resulting programs run much faster and are more likely to be correct < 1551647282 804639 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. #[cfg(thing_thats_false)] { type_error } will not error, but if cfg!(thing_thats_false) { type_error} will < 1551647290 900908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each is useful in different circumstances < 1551647293 121128 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's lots to like there, and some things that are a bit frustrating. < 1551647295 138494 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can’t format an integer in a non-locale-dependent way in c++14 < 1551647320 277797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, it will eventually become a good language. I should fix the few library programs it has with a custom library and then I should be able to use it. < 1551647333 658374 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't remove a whole item (function, type, etc) with cfg!() but you can't use #[cfg] in an expression < 1551647340 739900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, I believe that it is incorrect to ever format an integer in a locale-dependent way, unless the result is output directly to a human without being stored accessibly in memory < 1551647345 233443 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WHY would you give all these powerful tools for memory safety and error handling, and then "oh, and we just crash on OOM") < 1551647350 797857 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's not a preprocessor, but yeah < 1551647360 554099 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::to_chars showed up in C++17 < 1551647370 919396 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the syntax is fairly simple. a cfg expression is either an identifier, identifier = "string", or identifier(cfg_item) < 1551647374 187593 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's all() and any() < 1551647375 899709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not() < 1551647376 228326 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, presentation for a human and serializing to a string are two distinct problems. < 1551647379 271030 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has made me intrinsically suspicious of seeing compiler directives ahead of functions < 1551647396 176139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OSes don't handle OOM conditions in the way that programmers would like them to, unless memory limits have been set explicitly < 1551647397 491085 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also other #[...] attributes besides cfg, which are like traditional compiler pragmas, but lexically scoped < 1551647403 636997 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in rust they seem to be generally comprehensible to the human mind < 1551647404 723352 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexical scoping for warnings is nice < 1551647411 478991 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: s/OSes don't/Linux doesn't/ < 1551647415 846764 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's allow, warn, deny, and forbid < 1551647422 284760 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forbid is like deny except you can't allow inside forbid < 1551647434 455769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that a no-physical-memory-allocation-failure OOM doesn't necessarily hit the program that caused the problem < 1551647435 735777 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty necessary in a systems language < 1551647439 239695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh yeah. I got some surprise when vbscript printed booleans as "IGAZ" and "HAMIS" by default. C++ has the sane default, printing them as "0" and "1". in vbscript you have to -0 for that < 1551647446 668169 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it’s relic from when you could safely assume that anyone who would care about the output from a computer lived in the same city as said computer < 1551647453 821132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Windows doesn't either, Windows' OOM behaviour is to swap everything possible out of memory, and increase the size of the swap file if it doesn't fit < 1551647454 465820 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, i know its necessary for sufficiently low-level stuff < 1551647458 521478 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :many of them control linkage, etc < 1551647462 99840 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Eh, fair. < 1551647463 494616 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :“system locale”, “system time zone”, etc < 1551647469 725867 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it looks nicer than __attribute__((bleh)) < 1551647478 130589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between lexical and dynamic scoping for warnings? < 1551647481 61083 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and then freeze in a way that only the power button helps < 1551647486 70468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably at some point the hard disk ends up full, but you'll never reach that point; the system runs so slowly that the user will be force-quitting things and/or force-powering-off the system < 1551647489 374187 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just used to seeing any serious haskell include pragmas for like half a dozen arcane ghc extensions < 1551647492 165627 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope one day I get to the point where I can use Rust without feeling icky < 1551647494 446654 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And yes, how OSes signal memory pressure needs some work. But at the same time, if(!malloc()) abort(); is just shit. < 1551647497 121827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can force-quit things? < 1551647506 114576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never managed to when it ran out of memory < 1551647511 378313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: via Ctrl-Alt-Del, although under heavy swapping it's very slow < 1551647512 405328 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, I mean as opposed to linear file scope, like preprocessor < 1551647525 104427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has the amazing Alt-Sysrq-F, although it's disabled by default < 1551647536 12055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's defined as "guess which process I want to kill, and kill it" < 1551647537 901381 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you still care about 32-bit platforms, where you can hit that on running out of virtual memory for the process without too much difficulty. < 1551647547 414915 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OOM is really hard problem < 1551647555 333392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :under heavy swapping it's often the only plausible way to kill the offending program without causing a lot of collateral damage < 1551647565 884649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's no need to guess, it's always firefox-esr < 1551647592 153777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: both Firefox and Chrome have a multiprocess architecture nowadays, so often alt-sysrq-f kills a few browser tabs rather than the browser as a whole < 1551647593 700183 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It's a really hard problem to solve ideally, but not even trying is irritating. < 1551647614 674156 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially in a language that's selling itself on solving hard problems around memory and error handling. < 1551647618 338126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :abort() is TG < 1551647625 482310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that the correct solution to physical memory shortage is to automatically set memory limits for programs < 1551647631 674615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to some heuristic < 1551647632 479439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but why would I want to kill just a few browser tabs? firefox is good enough at remembering session history, saving it quite frequently just until it starts to lag < 1551647638 323037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and report memory shortage to the program when it hits its limit < 1551647645 171360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked the argument this person was making the other day that what you really want is a variant of abort that doesn't terminate the entire process. < 1551647646 92694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: because they're typically the offending ones < 1551647656 254667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is local to some library or something. < 1551647664 3672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, they do change the binary name every few years, it used to be firefox-bin at some point and iceweasel at some other point < 1551647675 326120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's pretty much what an exception is < 1551647677 590535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is much more coarse-grained than RAII or whatever. < 1551647697 110415 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions are way more complicated. < 1551647713 595792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, but does the complexity hurt in this case? < 1551647718 205341 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: All that said, I can't fault it too hard when very few languages do anything other than what Rust is doing here... < 1551647718 807764 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :good news! I might be switching from an insulin pump powered by a Renesas H8 and Microchip PIC16 to one powered by an STM32 < 1551647724 57490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not clear. on my system the offending ones are the ones that play video, the video playback runs at a too high priority so firefox can't react to the GUI events like trying to close a tab < 1551647735 754358 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For stuff that's vaguely mainstream, we've got alternative approaches offered by: C, and C++. < 1551647738 28954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I can "killall 'Web Content'", fun < 1551647738 514040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can crawl even without running out of memory < 1551647740 908669 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complexity always hurts. < 1551647745 379489 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think I need to elaborate on the problems there. < 1551647751 425105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: What happened to the one powered by \rainbow{JavaScript}? < 1551647769 564807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, the fix for that is probably to buy a stronger desktop computer hardware for myself < 1551647770 833435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like you were saying something about that once. < 1551647773 39809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1551647780 513627 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that’s < 1551647781 922940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so C's approach is for malloc to return NULL, which normally either ends up calling abort() via a wrapper function, or causing SIGSEGV when the returned pointer is used without checking < 1551647785 575838 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a thing < 1551647795 376121 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The language itself permits you to handle it more cleanly. < 1551647795 818702 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :the closed loop I’m using now is mostly Swift though < 1551647797 10567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C++'s approach is to throw std::bad_alloc, which rarely gets caught except by the outermost exception handler, so the program exits < 1551647803 881935 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if nobody... does. < 1551647811 223113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though the languages have different approaches, the actual practical behaviour is very similar < 1551647829 216828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Banning exceptions is probably a pretty reasonable thing to do. < 1551647837 819903 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perhaps the worst thing is, in C a lot of libraries have that behavior as well, so you're kinda fucked. < 1551647847 549409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do use exceptions you have to manage all your resources with RAII-style things. < 1551647855 510749 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck handling OOM robustly when your GUI toolkit doesn't. < 1551647858 227398 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a long-running program, it is often the right idea to make it so it saves its state to the file system occasionally, because it could crash in ways other than out of memory, such as power lost or hardware dying < 1551647863 711966 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fuck you GTK) < 1551647882 749813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried writing some GTK code a few days ago. < 1551647888 907450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was so demoralizing that I gave up on programming. < 1551647911 32455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm. doesn't your job involve programming? < 1551647912 611452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO the correct solution is to a) ban unchecked exceptions, b) stop using exceptions in situations where it's possible that they could never come up < 1551647912 661486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know they style widgets with CSS now? < 1551647915 619345 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Qt even lets you do this better: on std::bad_alloc, you can't go back into Qt, it'll be in an invalid state, but it doesn't crash. You can catch the exception in main() and at least save some state before dying.) < 1551647916 946095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what job hth < 1551647941 675750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no idea < 1551647950 889207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what everyone else in this channel does in real life < 1551647952 536611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe that there are no good GUI libraries < 1551647955 112871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what real life?) < 1551647966 987285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm, why? < 1551647979 296982 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, all the standard ones are certainly quite bad. < 1551647984 360347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them suck in terms of API or in terms of what they don't let you do < 1551648003 278515 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: agreed, all of them suck < 1551648003 892725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few of them don't (e.g. Java Swing's API is actually pretty good), but those tend to be terrible in other respects (there's a reason hardly anyone uses Swing nowadays) < 1551648004 482240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is https://github.com/ocornut/imgui good? < 1551648009 872341 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you still work for the place I interviewed that time? < 1551648019 701216 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iamksrunfevodepi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1551648039 58404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I quit a while ago. < 1551648055 311079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: outputting the GUI as an image immediately makes it incompatible with other programs on the same OS < 1551648056 103489 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have been uncertain what to do with my life etc. < 1551648068 265972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How do you mean? < 1551648091 56861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: imagine things like accessibility programs that need to do tree-walking of the GUI structure < 1551648097 301236 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear leaving the Bay Area and going out to live in a commune is popular these days. < 1551648108 674753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accessibility is a good point that I'm not quite sure about. < 1551648122 358187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think that style of UI necessarily requires that you output the GUI as just an image. < 1551648129 439797 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION moved to Montana
< 1551648130 774512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can include widget metadata and things. < 1551648143 606299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't believe it's theoretically impossible to create a good GUI library < 1551648148 795001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that I'd be surprised if one existed at the moment < 1551648151 481348 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just moved back home to Colorado
< 1551648211 828199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, that's fair. < 1551648218 936614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what a good one would look like? < 1551648248 849623 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remain in scotland < 1551648253 393280 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :implacable and resolute < 1551648270 973744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1551648283 419509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1551648289 637893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : not fully; I have some ideas but they probably aren't enough by themselves < 1551648297 268050 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: living in a commune in the bay area is also popular < 1551648316 971471 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite what one might think I am not that excited (anymore) about the idea of living in a commune < 1551648323 991444 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: At the rate things are going, you might end up changing citizenship without doing much of anything. < 1551648336 921626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What are the ideas? < 1551648345 379661 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What about fully automated gay space communism? < 1551648375 43462 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres the luxury < 1551648378 309619 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of mine started a vegan sex commune < 1551648384 415773 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't work out, i'm not sure the details though < 1551648388 420251 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame < 1551648390 460463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think being responsive to changes in available space for a widget is important (e.g. window resizing, other widgets gaining more information, and the like), which in turn means that the GUI's API has to be descriptive rather than imperative < 1551648391 970985 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Forgot < 1551648396 266661 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :was gonna ask for the juicier details of the fiasco < 1551648396 924846 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Bay Area communes tended to be full of rationalists < 1551648398 760792 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not surprised, but also good for her for trying something weird < 1551648402 529368 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: some of them < 1551648421 428572 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I didn't get to go to any of their parties either < 1551648423 880729 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis a silly place overall. < 1551648427 561651 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1551648435 355767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the easiest/best way to implement that might require something akin to a physics engine, although I'm not 100% sure on that < 1551648446 363767 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about not living in the bay area is that you can save a lot of mental effort by writing off everyone in the bay area as a pretentious wanker < 1551648451 522101 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551648452 937507 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :incl. me < 1551648459 536440 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're probably leaving soon too < 1551648471 935004 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i like you, but one can pick and choose < 1551648472 94943 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I'm out of the Bay and I think I'm still a pretentious wanker sometimes. < 1551648484 653225 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was part of a p nice rave cult in the bay area < 1551648488 162719 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bknqqhhxzzlvqpqd PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do miss that < 1551648491 145347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that sounds p. complicated < 1551648493 436937 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: that's cool < 1551648504 814491 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks PH <3 < 1551648506 402900 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like you too < 1551648519 276768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: one thing I've learned about programming is that there's always a tradeoff between complexity of the language/interface/API, and complexity of the code implementing it < 1551648522 206649 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm definitely a pretentious wanker sometimes < 1551648536 485384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: does styling widgets with CSS mean that you can stop firefox widgets to do all the annoying animations, even if it doesn't respect the Windows control panel's setting that does that for normal windows GUI applications? < 1551648536 942947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you can do that even if you do live in the bay area, hth < 1551648585 504008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe (although it is certainly reasonable to disagree with me on this!) that compromising as part of that tradeoff is never a good idea, and ideal languages/libraries/etc. should /always/ aim to place the complexity at one extreme or the other < 1551648598 632411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think "there's always a tradeoff" is exactly true. Sometimes the code is more complicated and the interface is also more complicated. < 1551648604 708347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: theoretically possible => sure, but is it theoretically possible to create one that doesn't have to be thrown away ten years later? < 1551648635 24308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the expectations of what we want from GUIs seems to have changed too much, which is, I think, part of why all the GUI libraries suck < 1551648635 424625 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, sometimes the API design just sucks because it was done with no consideration of what it would mean to implement. < 1551648636 948162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: in theory, if you had a good enough GUI library, you could just stick with it and just change out the backend as technology improved < 1551648638 944126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've all been written in the past < 1551648655 628396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a third thing which is the complexity of the overall system, if your goal is to understand the overall system rather than treat libraries as black boxes. < 1551648661 427383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not convinced that user interfaces are, on average, improving < 1551648668 882592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're obviously getting worse. < 1551648671 906766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can take a dialog box from Windows 95 and still be perfectly capable of using it nowadays, for example < 1551648679 696510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem is not the user interface part of the GUI < 1551648684 68676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything in computers is getting worse. < 1551648703 730749 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computers stopped getting much faster, but developers act like they are. < 1551648712 30372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/in computers// < 1551648720 286709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things get better. < 1551648735 85622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, performance is another big gripe of mine, especially in terms of rendering libraries < 1551648744 501136 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, really. High-end computers are still getting some advances. Not as much as they used to, but some. < 1551648748 723328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :take something like SDL for example; it's widely used, and yet some basic tasks require polling in a loop < 1551648759 170502 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low-end ones that non-developers actually use, though? Naaah. < 1551648768 719487 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What do you mean? < 1551648795 95618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, for one thing, if you look at an SDL program in strace, you'll see repeated 1-millisecond sleeps; I think those are coming from SDL itself < 1551648802 441246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what I was mostly thinking of is things like thread safety < 1551648828 191497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, there is no safe way to send information to the SDL main loop from a signal handler, using only primitives provided by SDL < 1551648847 93864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is annoying because there's an obvious way to do it via the SDL API, it just incurs undefined behaviour < 1551648866 768383 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classy. < 1551648884 548769 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq are you saying you don't have 32gb of ram to run electron applications? < 1551648886 721700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know. you'd have to be prescient. we can't get GUIs that scale well for any screen resolution including very high ones, and any font size, and more than 8 bit color depth, partly because we didn't anticipate that we'll need it, but partly because it's just hard to let the programs easily define how the gui elements should scale depending on what fits in the window < 1551648892 251089 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive never heard something so absurd in my life < 1551648919 945586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Swing's API, if correctly used, has been able to do that ever since it was created < 1551648926 225682 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :By looking at source code for SDL, it look to me it can work to post events from another thread (I don't know about signals) < 1551648929 425854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "the SDL main loop"? You mean if your program is blocking on SDL_PollEvent? < 1551648930 212975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the API is agnostic to things like font size < 1551648935 847537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right < 1551648947 444344 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: My daily driver has 4 gigs of RAM. < 1551648951 9886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm. I don't know much about Swing api, apart from some horribly bad GUI applications written in it < 1551648959 770896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't seem to be navigable with keyboard at all < 1551648973 260862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the problem is that the even posting API in SDL calls malloc, which is not async-signal-safe and deadlocks if called re-entrantly < 1551648991 208793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably that's not the fault of the library < 1551649013 771020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Swing dialog boxes are navigable with tab by default; things get more complex when you're talking about an entire application rather than a single dialog box, though < 1551649026 116368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to make those keyboard-navigable but you have to do so explicitly because there's more than one plausible way to do it < 1551649086 375280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1551649106 866011 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: O, OK. Then perhaps use another thread that waits for a signal and then uses it outside of the signal handler, will that work? < 1551649149 261050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: adding extra threads seems to be the standard solution to all this sort of thing; I think it could work via event posting, assuming that it is at least thread-safe < 1551649192 797614 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, it wasn't in SDL2 but is in SDL3. < 1551649199 17030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an SDL3? < 1551649201 564784 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think typically your program has a way to send messages to other threads that don't use the SDL mechanism? < 1551649207 503226 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm drunk < 1551649214 887388 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/2/1/ s/3/2/ < 1551649225 125468 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Posting events does seem to be thread-safe as far as I can tell (in SDL1, at least), but other functions (including events) might not be < 1551649250 649108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about the 1ms sleeps, what triggers them? < 1551649257 701257 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although maybe not in the earliest version of SDL1; I looked at the code for the version I have) < 1551649266 222167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so the problem is, you'd want a library like SDL to handle abstraction over OSes for you, and it does in fact have a set of threading primitives for that purpose; however, none of them allow one thread to block on a message sent by another thread (it has no semaphores nor any way to create them) < 1551649307 339044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only synchronization primitive it had, last time I checked, was mutexes (possible exception: I checked several rendering libraries for this and it's possible that I'm confusing SDL with somethinh else here) < 1551649313 148975 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.200.33 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1551649326 964022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libraries that handle abstraction over OSes are often problematic. < 1551649363 52749 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have a tendency to be busted. < 1551649367 857682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :logically, they shouldn't be; the set of common functionality between OSes tends to be very large < 1551649373 267446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that they often fail in practice, though < 1551649407 433777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thin it's more like that the abstraction libraries are lagging behind the OSes < 1551649426 950514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because each functionality first appears in one OS, and then an abstraction library pops up that does some crazy workaround on another OS to emulate it < 1551649442 787964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then nobody fixes the abstractino library later when that other OS gains a native way to do the same thing < 1551649450 451579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly because of compatibility issue < 1551649483 718730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could fix that by, say, only abstracting over features which were commonly available in OSes in 2010 < 1551649492 804609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like most programs will need most features introduced since then < 1551649511 37297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that sort of thing exists < 1551649519 869607 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the python and rust standard libraries try to do that < 1551649525 266475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, even the C standard library started like that < 1551649531 430952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sort of < 1551649558 611151 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, the C standard library was more a formal definition of the random pieces of Unix that other C implementations happened to implement. < 1551649574 886848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1551649602 487340 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the abstraction libraries try to be overly generic, and some of them are just very poorly designed. < 1551649612 614602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are any of them well-designed? < 1551649615 841432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also happened to include a relatively sane (though not entirely complete) date function API, but somehow everyone hates that and tries to invent worse datetime libraries < 1551649620 314954 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Not really. < 1551649663 906840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was writing some Xlib code the other day. < 1551649672 132773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of scow but not as bad as I thought. < 1551649698 933014 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite a few of them only even abstract over the portions of OS differences that are relatively easy to handle. < 1551649751 183985 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeaaaah, as far as things like FS APIs go there's only two choices: "basically or literally Unix" and "Windows") < 1551649767 999516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, for example, the threading libraries don't seem to have abstractions yet for setting CPU affinity of threads, despite that all OSes have that, because of what ais523 says: you don't need that until you want to optimize your program on a NUMA machine, and home computers don't have a NUMA cpu yet < 1551649768 39021 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still messing about with this stats problem < 1551649789 806965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this will change just like how back fifteen years ago home computers didn't have SMP cpus < 1551649793 125517 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 😕 < 1551649794 272325 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1F615 CONFUSED FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 95 UTF-16BE: d83dde15 Decimal: 😕 \ 😕 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) < 1551649904 516055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: most programs won't /know/ what the best CPU affinity is anyway, so why not let the OS decide? that's its job < 1551649916 954948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: although I don't know for certain, I have some suspicion that Windows is bad at this job) < 1551649918 260865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, so the programs aren't required to call that function < 1551649920 531992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a default < 1551649926 689272 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other possibilities that sometimes you can use VM rather than native code, although that depends on the program. < 1551649941 84610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the default is to inherit the cpu affinity of the calling process through forks and thread creation < 1551649949 827616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I see a Windows program using 25% of four CPUs, manually pegging it to a single CPU tends to help in that case < 1551649957 769480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*25% each < 1551649978 801416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that on non-NUMA machines? < 1551649982 107623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes < 1551650055 518503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's a double negative, they should just be called UMA machines < 1551650110 136994 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1551650271 594024 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xlib is not that bad, and I have written some X programs using Xlib, including to display a picture, to make a screenshot, and to warp the mouse cursor (this last one was written for someone who needed to work around a bug in Chromium; I wrote it to see if it would help, and he said it does help) < 1551650314 522339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :home computers having powerful GPUs is also a similar change I guess < 1551650328 25689 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and phones even < 1551650384 362883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... but I don't care about those < 1551651209 778872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-173.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, apparently they moved the Red Bull Air Race from Budapest to the south coast of the Balaton. that might actually be a good idea from my point of view. < 1551651456 835632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1551652272 296095 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0081cb76a76da0c1a3.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1551655513 297634 :adu!~ajr@pool-70-110-26-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1551655898 300664 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dnmfjwtlcfpeszlc JOIN :#esoteric > 1551657257 704570 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALLSCII14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60226&oldid=60225 5* 03Cortex 5* (+445) 10 < 1551657332 131933 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1551657408 971619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric