< 1555718443 581195 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The initial shift state is 0, where 4 is a temporary shift to state 1, and 5 is a temporary shift to state 2. In state 1 or 2, the 4 and 5 are permanent shifts; the same code is permanent to its own state and the other one is to state 0. Code 0 is always a space. Codes 6-31 meanings depend on the shift state; in state 2, code 6 is a ASCII escape and is followed by two more 5-bit codes. < 1555718565 278068 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infocom never used permanent shifts. Their documentation says to use a permanent shift if there are two characters from the same shift state, but that tends to be worse than not using permanent shifts at all. < 1555718570 289147 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1555721817 965005 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1555727120 296695 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1555730278 444467 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Does that explain what you wanted to know? < 1555730820 336091 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1555730956 932534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1555730993 518323 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Johansen" does refer to oerjan, because they helped me with it.) < 1555731362 993823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured. < 1555731373 359735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I thought it was either oerjan or Ørjan. < 1555731604 755312 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :can be hard to tell sometimes. < 1555731629 654773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's definitely not Pål Ørjan, he'd be more likely to cooperate with kmc. < 1555731742 725725 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Pål-Ørjan < 1555732315 106256 :zemhill_______!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :web.Mickey_V4: points -11.52, score 10.94, rank 47/47 < 1555732431 364521 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :activity! < 1555732458 399977 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which apparently cannot be underscored enough. < 1555735173 947249 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1555735178 968033 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1555737492 579720 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :baba is you is a great game! < 1555737589 354183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I've been saying! < 1555737603 991884 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1555737638 290769 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1555737642 179975 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1555737643 390806 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ < 1555737678 871971 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe later after Free Hero Mesh is enough that it is possible to try to use it, then you can see if you are able to make anything with it that is similar to Baba Is You, or if maybe not. < 1555738021 197258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use Free Hero Mesh to make The Revenge of Megazeux? < 1555738074 123359 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the BIY levels are really hard ;__; < 1555738183 401859 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be Revenge of Megazeux? If it is like MegaZeux, then probably not; it doesn't meet the requirements: that it is played on a rectangular grid of objects (there may be multiple objects at a location), with the state changing only deterministically by a function from the current state and key code to either the new state or a win or loss. < 1555738222 805523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's like Megazeux or maybe like the revenge of Megaboz < 1555738237 72891 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like The Revenge of Megaboz? < 1555738285 269062 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of Revenge of Megaboz. MegaZeux is played on a rectangular grid, but does not use the required state changing function. < 1555738335 638662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Revenge of Megaboz is also called Zork Zero. < 1555738337 185634 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, I found Revenge of Megaboz; it is Zork Zero: The Revenge of Megaboz, it look like. < 1555738444 497318 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a screenshot, I can see they have a compass at the top like I did in xyzabcde2 also (although mine is made only from text) < 1555738451 517844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like _Spider and Web_? < 1555738537 155041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have played before but do not remember all of them now < 1555738830 134970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ߓߓ IS ຢU < 1555738936 304225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ክክ IS Б𐋂 < 1555738987 254001 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1555738994 556993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ບX ߤS ክY < 1555739554 220147 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1555740218 973250 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1555741991 390688 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if awk specifies the order of evaluation of an expression? < 1555744851 538707 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a2f-120.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1555744905 777368 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a2f-120.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1555746472 471764 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1555750552 824049 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1555751516 622252 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1555751628 76660 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555753178 330647 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Re underscores, usually I just restart it to get rid of them, but now I'm afraid it would no longer work, because some of the Ruby things it uses had stopped working. < 1555753240 114797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hoping I'll finish the reimplantation before it goes down next time, though that doesn't feel all that likely. < 1555753421 380788 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1555753739 786450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1555754540 504163 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1555754625 280 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1555754746 794796 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :...reimplantation is probably something slightly different than what I meant. < 1555754763 769277 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555755886 390842 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555755904 810039 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555758287 574423 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555758624 160979 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555759173 74352 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555760539 942431 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555760845 137492 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1555760846 445755 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1555760903 537309 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555763993 227667 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1555778865 773076 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1555781226 343142 :ethereal9!~weechat@209.107.196.212 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555781512 245157 :ethereal9!~weechat@209.107.196.212 PART #esoteric :"WeeChat 1.9.1" < 1555781723 948848 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slist MEAT or CANDY? < 1555781724 716530 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :slist MEAT or CANDY?: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot < 1555781941 783541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? circle < 1555781943 121359 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :circle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1555781950 255662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn A circle has no end < 1555781952 498414 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'circle': A circle has no end < 1555781954 519859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn A circle has no end. < 1555781956 633337 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'circle': A circle has no end. < 1555781987 713704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you plan to visit your relatives on Easter? < 1555781988 137173 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: man. it is just another waste. do you like it. < 1555782221 184934 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday I heard Finland on amateur radio. < 1555782227 853140 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't manage to get a contact < 1555782236 775007 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did get a 10,000 km contact to eastern Russia though < 1555782282 607762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this still in the 200 MhZ frequency band? < 1555782739 531764 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1555782772 750759 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :last night I was on 7.074, 10.136, and 14.074 MHz < 1555782793 273476 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are the standard frequencies for the FT8 digital protocol on 40, 30, and 20 meter bands respectively < 1555783039 17688 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the distance record for VHF is short of that, and getting anywhere close would require extremely favorable atmospheric conditions and good equipment http://www.arrl.org/files/file/WA50-Standings/Distance_Records_10Dec2018.pdf < 1555783061 609539 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas on HF, i was able to do this with a pretty basic transciever and a crappy wire antenna < 1555783134 197516 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people also bounce VHF signals off the moon < 1555783152 173328 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the record is there < 1555783169 195012 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are satellites that act as amateur radio repeaters, but that's cheating as far as distance records go < 1555783240 867951 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :HF depends on the conditions of the ionosphere, which in turn depends on the sunspot cycle, which is at a minimum now. but there is still plenty you can do especially with weak signal modes like FT8 or good old morse code < 1555783288 549942 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morse is a very low bandwidth, low symbol rate (or can be, anyway) mode and therefore you can make a very sensitive receiver which picks out just that signal and very little of the surrounding noise < 1555783324 688530 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do extremely long distance on extremely low power, people have done extremely slow morse code ("QRSS"), up to one minute of transmission for a single dot! < 1555783343 894278 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally this is encoded and decoded by computer because it's tedious to sit there for hours holding down a button < 1555783421 235575 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :before computers, morse code stations would sometimes transmit messages from punched tape, and record onto paper tape with a pen actuated by the radio rceeiver. this was mostly done to allow very fast transmission (time is money!) and not very slow, but same principle could apply. < 1555783438 962904 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you go to the historic KPH radiotelegraph station in Point Reyes, California, you can see this equipment still in use < 1555783557 661608 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was one of the first radiotelegraph stations, built in the 1920s mainly for ship-to-shore communication (which is why it's on the coast) < 1555785004 312251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen such a morse transmitter, but I have seen a working telex terminal (not in production use, but in a museum) with a fast tape reader, so it can transmit and print characters faster than anyone could type on the keyboard. < 1555785068 81153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have also heard of the very low bandwidth morse transmissions, which were used for cable telegraph under the Atlantic for a decade or two before vacuum tubes were invented to amplify the signal right inside the undersea cable. < 1555785113 876503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Radio telegrpahy was also very hard back then, for the exact same reason: you need vacuum tubes to modulate the signal. < 1555785617 477427 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1555785651 681590 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for undersea cables they used a very clever device called a mirror galvanometer < 1555785674 735242 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of like a normal analog ammeter but the needle is replaced with a tiny mirror < 1555785689 846620 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :onto which you shine a light < 1555785698 66573 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a very small deflection of the needle is "amplified" by moving the reflected spot of light a much larger distance < 1555785707 73567 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially using a long lever arm with zero mass. < 1555785757 208255 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the earliest longwave radio transmissions they used electromechanical generators to produce the radio waves < 1555785760 203793 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator < 1555785794 21235 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, for the *earliest* they used spark gap transmitters, but those produce crazy amounts of broadband RF noise and can't be used for anything other than on-off < 1555785824 775562 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so their 'damped waves' were replaced by 'continuous wave' transmissions (the acronym CW survives today as the ham jargon for morse code; hams love jargon for jargon's sake and it's often more than 100 years old in origin) < 1555785854 918041 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then it was believed that longwave was the best way to do long distance, because it diffracts around the curvature of the earth < 1555785877 188927 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shortwave was believed to be useless and given to the amateurs to play around with, they subsequently discovered ionospheric reflection and suddenly shortwave became very important < 1555785896 966274 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, 'shortwave' is still 10,000 times longer than a lot of frequencies in use today. < 1555786053 141314 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is still one working Alexanderson alternator, they run it once or twice a year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_Day < 1555786101 623719 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 17.2 kHz... you can receive that with an antenna direct into a sound card < 1555786123 523507 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :17 km wavelength > 1555786381 38355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TOWCBL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61319&oldid=58899 5* 03ShareMan 5* (-5662) 10Deleted Page < 1555786522 318084 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O (hm, I guess 17 is close to the square root of 300) < 1555786751 249696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ %:300 < 1555786751 971353 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 17.3205 < 1555786821 711646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I read up on this on occasion of a certain poem, and the history is interesting, even if I only found out about part of it and missing other parts < 1555786849 299710 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh neat < 1555786850 720381 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which poem? < 1555786914 413442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47171973#47171973 < 1555786925 254494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Secret of the Machines" by Kipling < 1555786967 562891 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah kipling < 1555786968 562472 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1555787129 366071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it mentions radiotelegraphy from Europe to America, which confused me a bit given how early he's written that < 1555788114 750683 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1555788280 439771 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555788653 401235 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d029:9051:70f5:ad57 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555788872 482593 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>The value of BB(1895) is known to be independent of ZFC < 1555788875 11475 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting > 1555789049 194900 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02TOWCBL10]]": Author request: blanked by original author, no intervening edits < 1555789409 127049 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555789542 934651 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 < 1555789545 914266 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess they lowered the bound < 1555789628 123106 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont 100% understand how its possible that the value of the function can be independent < 1555789667 56285 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1555789734 320261 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a consquence of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem? < 1555789746 58069 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://web.archive.org/web/20100204093058/http://www.fantasticmetropolis.com/i/division/full/ < 1555789748 515804 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a turing machine can't decide the truth of every statement of ZFC < 1555789768 904963 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can use a similar paradox / diagonal construction < 1555789770 355259 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not sure < 1555789775 426055 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one of us could read the paper < 1555789858 924758 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without reading the paper < 1555790028 396117 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc115608-york6-2-0-cust168.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1555790193 34875 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.221 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1555791170 76867 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555792146 272945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555792194 37914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's implausible to prove that BB(n) is independent of ZFC for some n; you might well find a program of size n that's independent of ZFC, but how can you prove that there isn't a busier beaver of the same size? < 1555792272 522819 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if BB(n) in independent so is BB(n+1) < 1555792377 750526 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure what is meant by a busier beaver < 1555792429 440226 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's just one that takes more steps to halt < 1555792507 366410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1555792520 623201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of BB(n) only depends on the behaviour of the slowest program with size n, not on the behaviour of any of the others < 1555792540 733222 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://googology.wikia.org/wiki/User_blog:Wythagoras/A_good_bound_for_S(7)%3F < 1555792608 836144 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1555792614 798282 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to search for a contradiction in ZFC < 1555792644 383506 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let P be a program that does this, if ZFC is consistent it diverges if ZFC is inconsistent it halts after h steps < 1555792688 472782 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can we say that proving BB(|P|) = n for some numeral n is independent of ZFC? < 1555792733 755343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, you wouldn't be able to prove a specific value for BB(n) in ZFC if ZFC were consistent < 1555792738 547419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because doing so would prove that ZFC were consistent < 1555792769 76823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, if ZFC is actually inconsistent, there's no problem < 1555792820 100459 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its amusing that you can prove exists n, BB(|P|) = n < 1555792842 153023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a very philosophical question < 1555793018 927340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1555793279 69021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, from https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 I get it's a proof conditional on ZFC being consistent < 1555793300 913372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the machine halts iff it finds a proof that ZFC is inconsistent, and it searches the entire space of proofs effectively < 1555793352 486774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, not exactly < 1555793360 711060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the golfed program that is < 1555793370 872105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does something similar, and it's expected to not halt < 1555793409 267859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ZFC is inconsistent, does that imply it can prove everything? or does it have some sort of safety valve against that? < 1555793432 219457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no safety valve < 1555793442 219513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is classical logic, so if it's inconsistent, then it proves everything < 1555793448 377189 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The use of sizeof(string literals) in C is useful with macros. I think they might also be useful with macros if you can also put a string literal followed by a constant in brackets and treat the result also as a constant. < 1555793480 603413 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also that you can put string literal next to each other in C is useful with macros, too. < 1555793494 213151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think you can do that in modern C++ < 1555793757 157603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190420.html something seems wrong in Bobadventures comic. there's a new comic page posted, but no image. < 1555794110 483007 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1555794233 135516 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1555794269 536149 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555797082 501157 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1555797327 76652 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1555797342 700514 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555797602 75152 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1555798171 487086 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1555798272 271857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1555799304 318238 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7dcf:7737:e853:2ce2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1555801401 943695 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1555801685 951010 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1555802150 338592 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1555803456 398615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1555804452 83746 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7cb9:1061:82a0:9117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1555804732 73683 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7cb9:1061:82a0:9117 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds