> 1556409818 684432 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61387&oldid=60811 5* 03DMC 5* (-1) 10/* Truth Machine */
< 1556411795 247893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556411852 128529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I analyzed the Google Ngrams data to produce a list of bytes in UTF-8 encoded English in frequency order (\b = word boundary, Ngrams doesn't record what nature the word boundary had but it's normally a space) \betaoinsrhldcufmpg\"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:J\342\200U\224VYK?!X*/\302Q][Z\242&\$^\303%\260\243\251\253\273>\\\247=<\320+_|~}\240\321\250\236#\241{\274\263\204\244\255\276\261\252\223\202\201\266\256\277\265\234\@\254\235\26
< 1556411853 656564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :270\237\264\272\305\245\222\226\357\275\271\203\267\217\233\211\210\207\257\216\215\232\246\220\214\213\231\230\205\221\225\343\227\206`\344\212\345\347\346
< 1556411874 642978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting seeing capital letters mixed in with the lowercase like that
< 1556412084 791721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the ASCII from the above: etaoinsrhldcufmpg"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:JUVYK?!X*/Q][Z&$^%>\=<+_|~}#{@`
< 1556412132 973407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the position of " seems to be an anomaly, presumably it's a consequence of books with lots of dialogue?
< 1556412261 871258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: there are constructions like (a)(b) versus (b)(a) versus (ab), so the compatibility restriction here isn't transitively closed, but that list isn't pairwise compatible (because (a)(b) isn't compatible with (b)(a))
< 1556412300 657130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my 5638 strings are each reorderings of the above byte list, so no repeated characters
< 1556412324 310903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying to generate context-sensitive Huffman codes for English, and looking for a way to compress the resulting codebook into, ideally, less than a megabyte or so)
< 1556412392 236945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell user24 normally a "minor edit" is one that doesn't change the meaning of the page, so it's things like typo fixes, formatting fixes and grammar fixes; anything which changes the meaning of what's written on the page should be marked non-minor
< 1556412392 279223 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1556415454 50895 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :love is defeat, love is love
< 1556415463 808569 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played BIY on the plaaaaaaane
< 1556416024 562325 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got to the space levels
< 1556416027 308476 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gurer ner fbzr vagrerfgvat guvatf lbh pna qb jvgu 'rzcgl'. bar guvat V'z jbaqrevat vf jurgure 'rzcgl vf chyy' vf tbbq sbe nalguvat, vg frrzf gb rssrpgviryl cerirag lbh sebz zbivat ohg gur tnzr qbrfa'g fhttrfg erfgnegvat gur yriry jura guvf unccraf
< 1556416110 889859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it only suggests restarting when nothing is you.
< 1556416206 493421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully it will still let you to restart even if it is not a suggestion
< 1556421666 509756 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, you can restart any time
< 1556421675 958926 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also undo by single steps
< 1556421704 952560 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556421920 62782 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1556421992 174456 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you restart right now
< 1556421999 1434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i single-dog dare you
< 1556422090 756912 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no because i'm not playing
< 1556422094 983574 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you mean restart my life
< 1556422098 56721 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case also no
< 1556422452 586659 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556422470 623754 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi!
< 1556422491 283545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome gerzytet
< 1556422493 198507 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gerzytet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1556422569 904190 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I browse that wiki a lot.  Came here because of BF joust.
< 1556422692 639474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This is frequency in words, not frequency in text, right?
< 1556422712 668132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, no, never mind.
< 1556422722 187593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's frequency in text (i.e. weighted by how often the word appears in text)
< 1556422736 55274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1556422739 172018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the source information was a list of words and their frequencies, so I extrapolated frequency in text from there
< 1556422809 424659 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I forgot that was available.
< 1556422835 17142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a use for UTF-8 byte frequencies?
< 1556422861 851601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes: I'm trying to make context-dependent Huffman tables, and I'm making them predict a byte at a time
< 1556422882 25650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, obviously I should read everything you said rather than respond as I see each line.
< 1556422906 593434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kmc once asked me about something similar to this.
< 1556422914 333586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually compressing the resulting set of tables optimally is probably NP-complete, but I'm using a compression algo which I hope is decent enough
< 1556422939 747010 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<kmc> shachaf: if you have 16 bytes of valid UTF-8, not necessarily starting or ending on a character boundary, and you map each byte to an element of the set K = { ASCII, Start2Byte, Start3Byte, Start4Byte, Continuation }, how many distinct values of K^16 can you create?
< 1556422943 741610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the same problem.
< 1556422988 232574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to treat some of the start and continuation bytes separately so that you don't end up, e.g. encoding a surrogate
< 1556423016 858381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the context of that problem was decoding valid UTF-8.
< 1556423037 491931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :surrogates are the worst
< 1556423045 687711 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-16 should just go away. twh
< 1556423050 513787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for my use-case, I don't know that the input is valid UTF-8, and it might legitimately be invalid UTF-8, but I think that valid UTF-8 is rather more probable
< 1556423062 984068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so invalid UTF-8 is getting longer encodings in the Huffman trees
< 1556423085 702395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you meant your use case. Sure.
< 1556423193 60011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is another reason to work at the byte rather than character level – we don't know encodings for certain)
< 1556423289 283508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just working with the google 1grams is data-heavy enough; I'd like to do the same sort of thing with the 2grams at some point but I don't think I have enough disk space
< 1556423776 421522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :See if you have comments for these new Magic: the Gathering cards nntp://zzo38computer.org/doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org
< 1556423892 929626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"doc.news.conspiracies" is somewhere to post M:tG cards?
< 1556423908 950062 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No; that is a message ID.
< 1556423973 905952 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I prepare the messages in a directory ~/doc/news and then the file is called "conspiracies0", so I assigned that as the message ID. You are not required to use this scheme for your own message IDs; it is only for my own convenience and nothing else.)
< 1556423990 233431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The newsgroup name is "un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.custom")
< 1556424034 756535 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!zjoust little (->+>)*4(>[(+)*4[-]]+)*10000
< 1556424035 95164 :zemhill_______!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gerzytet.little: points -7.55, score 14.28, rank 40/47
< 1556424248 605911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't use NNTP.
< 1556424279 685257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, but only for communicating with Usenet
< 1556424301 33673 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That URL works with Lynx. If you do not have Lynx, another way to download it is to connect on port 119 and enter the command:  ARTICLE <doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org>
< 1556425296 336669 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after some messing around, I found that this program has about the same point score (-7.52) as my rush: >+<(++-)*-1.  I have no idea how that's just as effective
< 1556425328 640136 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think THAT many warriors would suicide
< 1556425555 719480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gerzytet: warriors that set many decoys tend to do better on the hill, so warriors that prey on decoy-heavy strategies also tend to survive
< 1556425576 348968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means that decoy-light strategies will often beat a reasonable proportion of opponents, although they rarely do /very/ well
< 1556425685 987100 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of strategies are used to counter decoy-heavy warriors?
< 1556425743 556554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is to try to guess the length of the tape from the opponent's decoy placement, e.g. you can assume it probably goes several cells beyond what you suspect is a decoy
< 1556425780 785231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another is to take advantage of the time the opponent spends setting up their decoys somehow, typically getting "inside" the decoy setup without the opponent realising you have and probing around to try to find the flag
< 1556425957 820932 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that second one only work if the opponent does a reverse decoy setup?
< 1556425974 884556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, unless the decoys near the flag are so small that you can get past them within your probe loop
< 1556426188 449060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, there are some programs, like ais523.margins, that do attempt to exploit the fact that many programs suicide or get stuck against an actively defended flag
< 1556426197 851984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(margins attempts to win on tape length 10 and 11 and draw everything else)
< 1556426293 686604 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, basically what I got out of your description was: you've got one program that starts near the middle and build decoys in towards the flag, but the program on the other side jumps past using tripwire avoidance or whatever, and steamrolls past lightly defended/undefended territory
< 1556426336 186377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there are many cases of that happening on the hill (especially on shorter tape lengths)
< 1556426387 651510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, there's little risk to setting up decoys on a long tape, and huge risk on a short tape (the opponent will just rule-of-nine past them), but the problem is you don't know how long the tape is in advance
< 1556426407 404831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programs will attempt to figure out the approximate tape length by looking for enemy decoys; that's another way that not setting decoys can gain
< 1556426570 848399 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a program like that have a wait a little bit so give the enemy a chance to setup decoys, especially on shorter tapes?
< 1556426937 240402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can set up decoys of its own meanwhile
< 1556429130 109764 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556429325 187495 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Client Quit
< 1556429359 354808 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1556431822 281071 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1556433582 541662 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556434164 605587 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1556434785 513361 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1556435732 511212 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdrmfxfijq0ns3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556436686 737070 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1556436795 664765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1556436865 10809 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556437063 249161 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1556437091 252880 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556439804 737546 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1556440046 863245 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556442149 985749 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
> 1556442261 888249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61388&oldid=60873 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+22) 10
< 1556442850 147905 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.144.122.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1556443054 724241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Coates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61389&oldid=50035 5* 03Coates 5* (-47) 10Updated
< 1556443168 119672 :Coates!5afc3f59@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.252.63.89 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1556443266 713969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07KanjiCode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61390&oldid=33768 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+17) 10
< 1556443438 637358 :Coates!5afc3f59@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.252.63.89 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1556444545 690797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556444556 320121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah right, that's a simpler example for not being transitive
< 1556444739 7681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gerzytet: so are you the person who submitted web.le-basic-rush-2 to zemhill yesterday?
< 1556446016 694121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 48*0.0254
< 1556446017 469914 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.2192
< 1556446811 274756 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556446819 579357 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1556447323 281810 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1556447350 133572 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556452169 305574 :LKoen!~LKoen@176-151-31-205.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556453070 944263 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sawhcoolrqtvbzqh JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556454824 201672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? flat earth
< 1556454825 774844 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :flat earth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1556455058 943838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.144.122.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1556455252 757387 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556455440 525768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hangar
< 1556455444 558918 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hangar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1556455530 564673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions: food
< 1556455531 858766 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
< 1556455532 350996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mushrooms
< 1556455533 628732 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mushrooms? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1556455663 920355 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions: math
< 1556455665 800235 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? linear logic
< 1556455666 535777 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
< 1556455667 570647 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear logic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1556455807 87283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? universe
< 1556455808 337450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? the universe
< 1556455812 880651 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A universe is a poem in one stanza.
< 1556455814 202513 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
< 1556455950 325639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions
< 1556455951 704607 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ruin
< 1556455951 922953 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
< 1556455952 837383 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1556457219 30560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? progress
< 1556457220 185832 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
< 1556457580 917158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A flat earth clock was pretty high up in Play Store's chart of top selling Android apps.
< 1556457655 199363 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flatearthsun -- today it's showing up at position #112, which is less high up.
< 1556457739 416786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html
> 1556457861 681392 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61391&oldid=60913 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+825) 10
> 1556458121 904964 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61392&oldid=61391 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+473) 10/* Specifications */
< 1556458311 847940 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: if you were to take a language like befunge-98, and remove all the instructions that can modify/read from the program space, is the stack alone enough to maintain turing-completeness, assuming an infinite stack?
< 1556458389 429389 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funge-98 doesn't have just a stack, it has a stack stack.
> 1556458408 262012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61393&oldid=61392 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+274) 10/* Instructions */
< 1556458491 210772 :gerzytet!~gerzytet@71.214.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, forgot about that
< 1556458595 997158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single stack is generally not enough to be TC, hence Befunge-93 (which has a fixed-size 80x25 playfield) isn't.
< 1556458694 829793 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there are counterexamples though?
< 1556458860 268225 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.144.122.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1556459292 683578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61394&oldid=61393 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+1042) 10/* Instructions */
< 1556459299 382585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, but doesn't befunge have a pick instruction that can reach deep into the stack using an index? hmm, let me look up befunge
< 1556459321 170866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ought to know this stuff, I nominated it as a featured article
< 1556459352 495805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, it doesn't have a pick instruction
< 1556459380 624519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, befunge-98?
< 1556459382 702363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see
< 1556459487 354900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, what fizzie says, it has some extra "stack stack" instructions
< 1556459489 508661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those probably help
< 1556459674 973896 :LKoen!~LKoen@176-151-31-205.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1556459693 71475 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61395&oldid=61394 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+309) 10/* Specifications */
> 1556459782 913329 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61396&oldid=61395 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+93) 10/* Specifications */
> 1556459842 690083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61397&oldid=60882 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+20) 10/* Specifications */
> 1556460116 336479 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esolime 5*  10New user account
> 1556460624 382142 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61398&oldid=61396 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+655) 10/* Instructions */
> 1556460754 802489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bfstack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61399&oldid=61385 5* 03Coates 5* (-1) 10
> 1556460802 257085 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61400&oldid=61398 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+355) 10/* Conditional looping */
> 1556460948 258001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61401&oldid=61400 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+79) 10/* Arithmetic operation */
> 1556461064 442978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61402&oldid=61401 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+270) 10/* Termination */
> 1556461097 291450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61403&oldid=61402 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+17) 10/* Conditional looping */
< 1556461183 330396 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Funge-98 in fact does have a "pick" instruction as well, it's just disguised: the y "Get Sysinfo" instruction can be used to pick.
< 1556461217 276254 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An interesting side-effect of this behaviour is that if y is given an argument that exceeds the number of cells it pushes onto the stack, it can act as a 'pick' instruction on data that was on the stack before y was even executed."
< 1556461241 640146 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown
< 1556461281 663928 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's very inconvenient, because the number of cells pushed by y is variable.)
> 1556461358 997444 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61404&oldid=61338 5* 03Esolime 5* (+186) 10
< 1556461510 588960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm
> 1556461511 208678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61405&oldid=61404 5* 03Esolime 5* (+41) 10
< 1556461534 703257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but can't you use the stack in stack instructions to deal with that variability?
< 1556461541 977829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :really I don't understand how those stack stack instructions work
> 1556461752 110221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61406&oldid=61405 5* 03Esolime 5* (+18) 10
> 1556461784 488663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61407&oldid=61403 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+308) 10/* Arithmetic operation */
< 1556461825 230023 :LKoen!~LKoen@crh60-h01-176-151-31-205.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556462302 183553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're pretty idiosyncratic, though you can implement a pick using them directly.
< 1556462455 936550 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :5{1u:00p01-u5}00g is essentially "peek at cell 5", using location (0, 0) as scratch space.
< 1556462627 225794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er, not quite, thanks to the storage offset.
< 1556462640 53900 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The storage offset is such a pain.
< 1556462799 625852 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: um, but gerzytet asked what you can do without using cells as storage. if you have the p and g commands to use cells as storage, then you can just use that for most of your memory, and just a few slots of stack for commands.
< 1556462822 434266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need braces then, you can just put the whole stack into cells then
< 1556462851 75021 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I was just talking about picking from the stack in general.
< 1556462908 684018 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can do it without the scratch space as well, because you can use u to reverse the order of topmost N cells on the stack.
< 1556462917 700956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, u can do that?
< 1556462927 509721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even better
> 1556462958 489735 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61408&oldid=61407 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+916) 10/* Conditional looping */
< 1556463034 645157 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, assuming you don't need to restore a previous storage offset, 5{$$05-u000} should reverse the order of the 5 topmost cells.
< 1556463107 445344 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also assuming two spatial dimensions.
< 1556463170 21089 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the stack stack was initially ...[... a b c d e f], then 5{$$ makes it ...[... a][b c d e f], the 05-u moves the elements back with a push-pop loop resulting in ...[... a f e d c b][], and the 000} gets rid of the empty stack on top, setting the storage offset to (0, 0).
< 1556463982 349896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0.0254*3%16
< 1556463983 82178 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 0.0047625
< 1556467480 968938 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do some Funge-98 implementations have options to define the character coding in use for the source file? You might specify either 8-bit coding or 31-bit UTF-8 coding (this is the range specified by the Funge-98 documentation, which is far more than Unicode); you could also allow overlong UTF-8 sequences to allow line break characters to appear directly in Funge-Space. A fingerprint definition for Glk can also be made.
< 1556468652 325585 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe turing complete language  with just a stack could be done by having the stack act like the C call stack, but also include pieces of code
< 1556468708 385484 :LKoen!~LKoen@crh60-h01-176-151-31-205.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1556468988 82171 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1556473253 355358 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1556473987 284091 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
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< 1556475166 339166 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Quit: Hugs~ <3
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< 1556479258 514261 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdrmfxfijq0ns3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1556479391 317675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? we
< 1556479392 776630 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are the champions.
< 1556479834 568788 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556479993 241320 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1556479993 550389 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1556480031 247354 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.201.157 JOIN :#esoteric
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> 1556481062 862107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Alvarito050506 5*  10New user account
> 1556481438 318390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61409&oldid=61406 5* 03Alvarito050506 5* (+167) 10
< 1556481816 238619 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1556483358 132340 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.201.157 NICK :arseniiv
< 1556483834 17696 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any software for PC with CGA or MDA using hardware scrolling?
< 1556484759 381273 :LKoen!~LKoen@crh60-h01-176-151-31-205.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1556485002 219418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, Commander Keen first trilogy does on CGA, scrolls in an increment of 4 pixels which makes the scrolling a bit jittery
< 1556485033 452961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :great game though, especially the second one. best level design ever, where it uses coke cans and scrubs in an innovative way.
< 1556485080 807203 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :coke cans are score items, but unlike others, they're also solid if you land on them from the above (not from the side or below); scrubs are enemy sprites that don't hurt you, climb around on walls even upside down, and you can stand on them
< 1556485087 613974 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also push you
< 1556485156 51828 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardware scrolling in low resolution graphics mode is always a multiple of eight pixels (if it is horizontal), I think. (Vertical scrolling in graphics mode would be a multiple of two pixels.)
< 1556485221 166976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's eight pixels, I don't really remember
< 1556485225 67923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't played it for years
< 1556485235 267209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably find out by looking at youtube videos of its gameplay
< 1556485684 920190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any program use hardware scrolling with text mode?
< 1556485781 133840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that even possible?
< 1556485795 270453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how CGA and EGA hardware work
< 1556485849 664439 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is possible (although only by a multiple of a character cell; fine scrolling is not possible)
< 1556485878 117952 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556485892 986761 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556485909 314428 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any comments of the many conspiracy cards of Magic: the Gathering cards that I posted to Unusenet recently?
< 1556485925 784839 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556485930 842562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did find scrolling in VGA text mode, but only horizontal scrolling of one line, and on modern hardware
< 1556485938 910519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I simply updated the font quickly in every frame
< 1556485971 39825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at those cards. have you added them to the textfiles website on gopher? or have you abandonned that in favor of nntp?
< 1556485990 702599 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PARDON THE INTERRUPTION, does someone have insider news of the Minix "issue"  https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/minix issuemi  ??
< 1556486038 198481 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have that file, although I intend to now use it for once the cards are actually ready, instead. Currently they have no names, and may need review; I should preferably do that first before putting them into the file, I think.
< 1556486054 718284 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That way they can be discussed first before being published properly.)
< 1556486087 508710 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
< 1556486091 6138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could put them in a different file?
< 1556486256 6757 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the the intel-minix issue inside your Intel thing ..if you use intel
< 1556486269 938311 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sombrero: I don't know much about Minix
< 1556486294 767020 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don´t also
< 1556486340 537908 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: They are in the file on the NNTP. (You do not need any special software in order to access it; I even added the POSTQUIT command to make it convenient to reply without any special NNTP software, too.)
< 1556486404 152359 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Simply type ARTICLE followed by the message ID with < and > around it.)
< 1556486428 612406 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can also post your own ideas there, if you have your own ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards, please!)
< 1556486611 613819 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a last info in this direction, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iffTJ1vPCSo , but there is no much more info in this topic
< 1556488387 193021 :sombrero!b5cb5483@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.203.84.131 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1556491366 33472 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSBOX has no command to set the date/time. If I add a program to do that, will it work (for the current session only)?
< 1556491394 341426 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-16-32-159.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does DOSbox even get its idea of time? System local time?
< 1556491424 339807 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what it seems to do
< 1556492433 765410 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc115608-york6-2-0-cust168.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1556492929 108425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: dunno, ask the TASers or ais523, I think they use dosbox and set the time to manipulate randomness in DOS games
< 1556493025 866390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I tried doesn't seems to work. I tried assembly language (with DEBUG), and I also tried BASIC, but in both cases, it won't set the time.
< 1556493043 971451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-33.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'm not sure about it, but it's worth a chance that they know
< 1556493224 544179 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe overriding the interrupt table will work? I don't know
< 1556493568 71027 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.54.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ladyv0jibb hmm
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