←2019-05-06 2019-05-07 2019-05-08→ ↑2019 ↑all
00:00:31 <oerjan> weston: !ztest can be done in private (!zjoust always announces)
00:01:16 <fizzie> Gah, all those underscores.
00:02:32 <oerjan> i think it's at maximal length now...
00:03:24 <oerjan> maybe it's actually sending many more and those just get cut off :P
00:03:32 <fizzie> Probably. And despite a public holiday over here, I didn't make any progress at the reimplementation work. :/
00:04:48 <oerjan> at some point it should get refused due to exceeding line length
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00:11:05 <int-e> oerjan: there are far worse ways to waste one's time :)
00:11:14 <fizzie> Yes, that's kind of concerning. Because I don't think it will actually restart properly.
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00:20:23 <weston> Hey, sorry! I assumed it was private
00:21:19 <weston> New to IRC, how do I do private?
00:21:49 <fizzie> Usually "/query zemhill_______" opens a private window.
00:22:00 <fizzie> (I think it does in the webchat as well.)
00:22:17 <weston> seems to, thanks
00:29:29 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61777&oldid=61660 * Oerjan * (-13) Partial revert to compiler: I don't think it makes sense to consider self-interpreters bootstrapping, because then you need to keep another implementation around to run it even after the "bootstrap".
00:30:57 <oerjan> fizzie: in other news, my change to the history page titles still doesn't seem to have taken effect.
00:32:42 <int-e> oerjan: the dinosaurs aren't scary by themselves, it's what they may evolve into that is the stuff of nightmares :)
00:33:09 <int-e> anyway, that was the idea that I liked and still like a lot.
00:33:34 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61778&oldid=61777 * Oerjan * (+68) Elaborate a bit more
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00:35:03 <oerjan> . o O ( i take it int-e doesn't like birds )
00:36:10 <int-e> They are freaks of nature. :P
00:37:01 <int-e> (Of course this is basically true of any species whatsoever.)
00:37:17 * int-e is off to bed.
00:40:44 <esowiki> [[(PTM)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61779&oldid=61712 * Oerjan * (-5) /* Links & Further reading */ Standard header
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03:56:04 <shachaf> whoa, Windows is replacing WSL with actual Linux.
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10:27:35 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61780&oldid=59205 * A * (+347) Put feature languages into this timeline (they are definitely important)
10:33:03 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61781&oldid=61767 * A * (+42) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
10:39:27 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61782&oldid=61411 * A * (+145) Add an idea
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12:24:37 <int-e> https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-)
12:25:03 <int-e> also.. so cold.
12:25:21 <int-e> @metar lowi
12:25:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 071220Z 15006KT 100V210 CAVOK 12/M01 Q1016 NOSIG
12:26:24 <int-e> (it's funny; the dewpoint estimates tend to differ by about one degree despite the measurements coming from the same place.)
12:34:05 <Taneb> @metar egsc
12:34:05 <lambdabot> EGSC 071220Z 19007KT 9999 FEW040 BKN057CB 12/02 Q1014
12:35:39 <Taneb> Not too warm here either :(
12:59:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61783&oldid=61775 * A * (-1620) Thanks for the comments, I undo my edits of Bool Row.
13:00:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61784&oldid=61783 * A * (-520) And delete Bool Row.
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13:09:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61785&oldid=61784 * A * (+283) Eliminate some computational models (as it is not clear whether it is Turing-complete)
13:11:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61786&oldid=61295 * A * (+35) Even though it is unclear whether bitch is Turing-complete, it is clear that it is at least a finite-state automata.
13:12:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61787&oldid=61785 * A * (+2) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:15:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61788&oldid=61787 * A * (+106) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:21:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61789&oldid=61788 * A * (+11)
13:24:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61790&oldid=61789 * A * (+67) Add a subtitle(I can't find where it is)
13:27:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61791&oldid=61790 * A * (+227) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push down automaton */
13:42:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61792&oldid=61791 * A * (+544) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */
13:43:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61793&oldid=61792 * A * (+15) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:44:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61794&oldid=61793 * A * (+90) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:48:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61795&oldid=61794 * A * (+299) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
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13:50:06 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61796&oldid=60518 * A * (-2) Reduce the complexity of Bucket
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13:56:48 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61797&oldid=61796 * A * (-25)
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14:05:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61798&oldid=61795 * A * (+0) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
14:25:17 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61799&oldid=49643 * A * (+2813) /* Hello, World! */
14:25:38 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61800&oldid=61799 * A * (-39) It is usable for computing
14:26:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61801&oldid=61798 * A * (-24) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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14:27:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61802&oldid=61801 * A * (+74) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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14:30:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61803&oldid=61802 * A * (-83) /* Trivial proofs */
14:31:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61804&oldid=61803 * A * (+91) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
14:39:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61805&oldid=61804 * A * (+809) We are going too far for proving the TC-ness of bitch.
14:41:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61806&oldid=61805 * A * (+10) minor edit
14:41:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61807&oldid=61786 * A * (-35) Undo revision of A
14:42:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61808&oldid=61806 * A * (+10) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */
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14:46:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61809&oldid=61808 * A * (+33) /* What bitch surpasses */
14:47:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61810&oldid=61809 * A * (-849) Already irrelevant to proving TC-ness
14:55:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61811&oldid=61810 * A * (-446) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
14:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61812&oldid=61811 * A * (+12) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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18:30:15 <orin> looks like I successfully lit a fircracker under someone's butt at firefox
18:31:11 <orin> and convinced them that no, having addons just suddenly stop working on un-updated computers, isn't valid behaviour
18:32:33 <kmc> mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users
18:32:39 <kmc> or about open source
18:34:00 <orin> A related issue is the potential censorship of add-ons; Mozilla Foundations could be legally or culturally inhibited from signing otherwise fine add-ons
18:34:17 <orin> Due to its location in California, USA
18:34:55 <orin> But I'm unaware of any extant examples of this problem
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20:05:14 <pikhq> orin: I think even just "it stops working by accident" is a pretty valid complaint, and one that came up recently, so. :)
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20:21:43 <orin> pikhq: the current date for the next addon mageddon is in 2025
20:47:06 <kmc> re previous conversation, my wife reminded me of another way to choose an anniversary gift
20:47:42 <kmc> which is, think of a situation that caused relationship friction in the past year, and buy an item to prevent that
20:47:53 <kmc> and that's how I got an extension cord for my anniversary
20:49:44 <b_jonas> kmc: nice. I am wary of that particular one, and have got extra extension cords and cables
20:49:51 <b_jonas> but yeah, in general that should work well
20:50:01 <b_jonas> I want a new electric toothbrush though
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20:52:32 <orin> one can never have too many spare extension cables and phone chargers
20:53:14 <b_jonas> yeah
20:53:35 <b_jonas> especially since they break compatibility every five yeras
20:54:01 <b_jonas> not for the extension cords, luckily
20:54:18 <b_jonas> those just have their cables broken or the surge protector broken
21:01:22 <kmc> I'm still using micro usb
21:01:53 <kmc> the issue before is that we had some short cords. and a huge (50 foot) heavy duty cord that was thick and unwieldy
21:02:00 <kmc> and nothing in between
21:02:08 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, there's that too
21:02:19 <b_jonas> nothing between 0.3 m and 2 m
21:02:40 <b_jonas> but I can deal with the 2m cables using cable ties
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21:14:39 <fizzie> I feel appreciated: Brexit Party sent me a personal letter about how they're saving democracy.
21:14:59 <fizzie> "However you voted in 2016, we all care about democracy --"
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21:20:08 <rdococ> how do you save democracy by removing accountability from the government?
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21:54:43 <kmc> lol
22:01:59 <FireFly> kmc: hm, that's not a bad gift idea
22:02:35 <kmc> she went to the hardware store and browsed until something jogged her memory of a conflict
22:04:10 <FireFly> I should remember that one for later
22:04:29 <FireFly> I mean, the 'something to prevent some recent friction' scheme idea, not specifically extension cord :p
22:04:32 <kmc> lol
22:05:18 <rain1> hello
22:05:44 <kmc> hi
22:07:51 <rain1> how would you implement a language based on a list of sentences and the semantics is order independent?
22:08:08 <kmc> needs more detail. what form do the sentences have?
22:08:17 <kmc> unification is one way. a logic language like prolog
22:08:23 <kmc> or alloy
22:08:31 <rain1> im thinking like a generalized baba is you
22:08:39 <j4cbo> or Lingua::Romana::Perligata
22:08:42 <b_jonas> rain1: you can make each sentence a top-level function definition
22:08:50 <kmc> the sentences represent logical facts and the interpter derives more facts from them
22:08:53 <b_jonas> or, like, a definition for a top level function or variable
22:09:04 <kmc> j4cbo: how is that order independent?
22:09:17 <kmc> seems like this falls under the general umbrella declarative programming
22:09:33 <j4cbo> syntactical order independent
22:09:49 <kmc> though you could also have an imperative language which works this way, if you have some rule for which sentence 'executes' first, such as the shortest one, or most specific according to some metric
22:10:11 <b_jonas> or you can use statements, with a line label and explicitly writing the labels of next states
22:10:16 <b_jonas> thus linking them
22:10:22 <kmc> yeah
22:10:34 <shachaf> Baba Is You seems to have a pretty clear evaluation order, at least.
22:10:35 <kmc> old basics are like that... you can enter the lines in any order
22:10:39 <kmc> shachaf: how's it defined?
22:10:54 <shachaf> I mean, it's kind of complicated, but it seems like it exists.
22:10:58 <kmc> did anyone write an AI to play BiY yet?
22:11:06 <kmc> seems like it might discover some really interesting weird solutions
22:11:13 <rain1> by order doesn't matter i mean that you can shuffle the list of sentences and it has the same semantics
22:11:27 <kmc> yeah, I got that
22:11:37 <b_jonas> or like one of those string replacement languages, one of those that are nondeterministic in which replacement rule is ran, so you have to chain them by states
22:13:09 <kmc> mm
22:16:31 <rain1> the AND and OR operators in first order logic are order-independent
22:16:40 <rain1> so a logic solver might be a way to do it
22:17:57 <rain1> but maybe formal logic is too strict
22:19:41 <kmc> yes, if your program is a list of logical equations then it's order independent
22:19:46 <kmc> and can be 'executed' with a SAT solver or something
22:19:50 <kmc> but that also has limited power
22:19:59 <kmc> especially if you don't include NOT (then you only have monotonic circuits)
22:20:09 <kmc> monotonic circuits are an interesting complexity class
22:20:15 <rain1> how limiting is that? I mostly worry about it being 'fragile' and failing almost all th etime
22:20:18 <kmc> for low-complexity things
22:20:21 <kmc> fragilehow so
22:20:36 <rain1> well most logical formula are unsatisfiable
22:20:37 <kmc> for basic boolean SAT, if there is a solution a SAT solver will eventually find it, or say there isn't one
22:20:45 <kmc> it will never give up. never surrender.
22:20:52 <kmc> (unless you put a time bound on it of course)
22:20:56 <rain1> but you probably want some characters to move even if one of the others is up against a wall (or inside a wall) and cant move
22:21:07 <kmc> also if it's unsatisfiable it can find an 'unsat core' of equations that make it unsatisfiable
22:21:10 <kmc> sure
22:21:18 <rain1> wow the unsat core sounds perfect
22:21:56 <kmc> there are lots of sat solvers, and competitions and such
22:22:00 <kmc> but minisat is a good place to start
22:22:06 <kmc> also if yo uhaven't seen it
22:22:11 <kmc> you should really check out http://alloy.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/index.html
22:22:13 <rain1> i have implemented a sat solver before
22:22:20 <kmc> awesome
22:22:31 <kmc> alloy is SAT based but adds a rich relational algebra on top of it
22:23:37 <rain1> /* Defines what eats what and the farmer is not around. */
22:23:39 <rain1> fact { eats = Fox->Chicken + Chicken->Grain}
22:23:55 <kmc> ah yes
22:24:00 <rain1> this is cool
22:24:00 <kmc> classic logic puzzle :)
22:29:05 <shachaf> SAT solvers are TG.
22:29:16 <shachaf> I want to write one so I understand all the fancy algorithms they use.
22:29:39 <kmc> yeah
22:29:41 <kmc> so did i
22:29:41 <shachaf> Like CDCL and 2-watched-literal.
22:29:43 <kmc> but so many projects
22:31:06 <shachaf> Do you like dancing links?
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22:31:18 <kmc> i think so
22:31:21 <kmc> but I forgot how it works
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23:18:14 <rain1> its just depth first search, but implemented really efficiently i think
23:18:46 <rain1> for the specific problem of exact cover, cause of the double linked lists
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23:36:28 <oerjan> <int-e> https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) <-- i don't get it.
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23:43:32 <oerjan> <kmc> mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users <-- you know, i occasionally try to consider which browser i'll eventually switch to when i have to give up IE completely, and the main impression i seem to get about the major contenders is "they're all evil".
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23:45:06 <shachaf> web browsers are scow
23:45:35 <kmc> i'm giving up on the internet
23:45:38 <kmc> ham radio for life
23:46:48 <fizzie> `` thanks Thunderbird # this was sort of anticlimactic
23:46:48 <HackEso> Thanks, Thunderbird. Thunderbird.
23:46:59 <shachaf> how is the web such a terrible platform imo
23:47:18 <oerjan> shachaf: because commercial companies were allowed to use it hth
23:47:21 <kmc> same reason humans are so terrible
23:47:24 <kmc> it evolved, it was not designed
23:47:34 <shachaf> mammals are p. great
23:47:41 <shachaf> and humans are way up there
23:47:49 <shachaf> not above cats obviously, but p. high
23:48:47 * kmc is a mammal
23:48:52 <shachaf> lucky
23:49:17 <shachaf> i particularly like the feature of mammals where they're conscious entities with brains and personalities and things
23:49:42 -!- kmc has left.
23:49:49 <shachaf> whoa
23:49:56 <oerjan> good scaring shachaf
23:49:59 <shachaf> i wonder why kmc left
23:50:21 <oerjan> i think we depressed her
23:50:27 <shachaf> oh, probably took it as a guilt-trip-for-eating-meat thing
23:50:34 <shachaf> which i wasn't even thinking of
23:50:40 <shachaf> sigh
23:51:00 <oerjan> that sounds like leaping to conclusions unless she's done that before
23:51:19 <shachaf> we have had interactions like that in the past
23:51:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61813&oldid=61812 * Salpynx * (+3412) Conjecture that bitch is NOT TC, and a specific, simpler, bit copy challenge
23:52:18 <oerjan> i wonder if they'll converge to some actual answer on Bitch's computational class. i'm avoiding getting involved.
23:52:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61814&oldid=61813 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ crucial typo fix!
23:53:10 <shachaf> anyway what i said goes for s/mammals/humans/ too
23:53:13 <oerjan> although it's a bit shame no one told them about ais523's idea.
23:53:29 <shachaf> i'm just marveling at the universe being so odd
23:55:04 <oerjan> it seems to me that the logical end point of vegetarianism is that we have to get our brains uploaded to computers so we can stop hurting living beings simply by existing.
23:55:18 <oerjan> including, in the extreme, our own body cells.
23:55:35 <shachaf> not hurting living beings simply by existing sounds p. good to me
23:55:59 <shachaf> but i don't care about hurting my own body cells very much
23:56:12 <oerjan> well the question is whether _they_ care.
23:56:41 <oerjan> it's a pretty despotic regime.
23:57:05 <shachaf> Whose question?
23:57:31 -!- salpynx has joined.
23:57:43 <oerjan> the moral question.
23:57:50 <oerjan> or ethical
23:58:42 <oerjan> it might eventually turn out elementary particles are conscious, in which case the ethics are pretty screwed.
23:58:50 <shachaf> Reminds me of Smullyan: «I must tell you that on another occasion, my mother wanted me to do something which I didn't want to do. When I told her that I wouldn't do it, and she told me that I was being selfish, I said, "Mother, whose sake do you want me to be unselfish?"»
23:59:53 <salpynx> poking my head in here to ask for feedback on whether I have made any obvious mistakes with my attempt on talk:bitch to settle the endless TC quest
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