< 1558656890 260837 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558657112 601570 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558657612 579182 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558657819 215692 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1558658396 534940 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1558660602 236051 :sleffy!~sleffy@157-131-111-150.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558660605 160291 :sleffy!~sleffy@157-131-111-150.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net QUIT :Client Quit > 1558663173 68106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DMC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62538&oldid=61124 5* 03DMC 5* (-335) 10 > 1558664105 558003 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62539&oldid=62443 5* 03DMC 5* (-3872) 10Blanked the page < 1558664639 540761 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1558671029 588790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Spammer attacks 5* 10New user account > 1558671067 90287 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62540&oldid=62533 5* 03Spammer attacks 5* (+106) 10/* Introductions */ > 1558672078 905630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62541&oldid=62539 5* 03Spammer attacks 5* (+104) 10You see, now I can edit the sandbox. This user detection process does not prevent spammer attacks. (Moderators: you can block me if you want to.) > 1558672089 194092 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62542&oldid=62541 5* 03Spammer attacks 5* (-104) 10Blanked the page < 1558672211 114125 :Spammer!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558672235 611585 :Spammer!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 NICK :Guest23246 < 1558672239 891327 :Guest23246!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The esolangs.org wiki does not prevent spammer attacks. See what I just did! < 1558672260 238210 :Guest23246!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: You can block me if you want to.) < 1558672271 522647 :Guest23246!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558672645 656552 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood < 1558672960 152267 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1558673690 758450 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wzoubemoctqgalbq JOIN :#esoteric < 1558674441 580095 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558674668 543251 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558675646 159259 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host109-152-144-112.range109-152.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1558675701 89910 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558675922 543470 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558676213 53232 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558676266 10342 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1558676287 767641 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1558676489 66654 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1558678278 3593 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1558678299 961786 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1558678392 542157 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558678689 462608 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1558678689 540981 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1558678689 541020 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1558680169 348152 :J_Arcane!sid119274@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wlmlkibsssfjgzvv PART :#esoteric < 1558681144 61000 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558681528 457113 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1558681546 272758 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1558683437 553938 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558683568 390259 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1558683836 603465 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep JOIN :#esoteric < 1558683871 887633 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wzoubemoctqgalbq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1558684966 347560 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxydytkdvnzqjsjk QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558685178 978143 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz JOIN :#esoteric < 1558685661 290149 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no!!!!! < 1558685736 338842 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558686942 10957 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558687433 48029 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1558688038 326462 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558688788 564703 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558688849 11910 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party? < 1558688849 193715 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: he's somebody else too < 1558688865 471150 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... that's not enough of a reason really < 1558688891 114087 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, do they have any specific promises besides not being the orange party? < 1558688891 347635 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: r2q2 annotated 2343 with " sum-of-squares" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? yes... unicode enabled? possibly... i'll do that < 1558688904 631091 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're in the wrong style < 1558688906 696993 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1558688906 762862 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube < 1558688914 620963 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1558688914 678465 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1558688918 224694 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's start over < 1558688926 926970 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party? < 1558688927 88093 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: mr president, in september, during the codecision procedure. < 1558688933 916962 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1558688965 538745 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned fungot, I understand that you find the codecision procedure is important, but what side will the red-green party represent there? < 1558688966 101024 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: mr president, before leaving for strasbourg from bergamo airport, i met a gmo who said to me: ' my dream is that all governments, we might also consider comitology. however that is not the commission's approach. so let us get some credit for our support and fully concur with what mr van den bos document is put to the vote. < 1558689010 918736 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's slightly more concrete. so you fully support mr van den bos's proposal < 1558689055 172652 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're more articulate when representing the other side. can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize what the campaign of the orange party centers around? why should I give my votes to them? < 1558692447 941385 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558692607 442472 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1558693161 499576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62543&oldid=62537 5* 03A 5* (+132) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ < 1558695063 94081 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the setsockopt option to modify the evil bit in outgoing messages for ip sockets? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html > 1558696173 459181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62544&oldid=62543 5* 03A 5* (+94) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ > 1558696207 972292 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62545&oldid=62544 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ < 1558698497 94994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558698502 100804 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1558698527 249962 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1558698572 453514 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1558698636 452182 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1558699240 732595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62546&oldid=62545 5* 03Int-e 5* (+539) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ tweaks in reply to A > 1558701559 781568 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62547&oldid=62546 5* 03A 5* (-2171) 10/* Deadfish interpreter */ > 1558701580 977017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62548&oldid=62547 5* 03A 5* (-613) 10/* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ > 1558701591 751397 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62549&oldid=62548 5* 03A 5* (-122) 10/* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ < 1558701758 422884 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host109-152-144-112.range109-152.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: http://corewar.co.uk > 1558702002 386180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62550 5* 03A 5* (+137) 10Created page with "[[Finite looping automaton]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]" > 1558702076 828456 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62551&oldid=62550 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10 > 1558702188 157987 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62552&oldid=62551 5* 03A 5* (+278) 10 > 1558702287 790881 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62553&oldid=62552 5* 03A 5* (+98) 10 > 1558702708 234731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62554&oldid=62549 5* 03Int-e 5* (+48) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ add user name (how did that happen...) > 1558702972 973012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62555&oldid=62553 5* 03A 5* (+366) 10 > 1558703138 401938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62556&oldid=62555 5* 03A 5* (+95) 10 > 1558703148 404771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Finite looping automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62557&oldid=62556 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Infinte loop */ > 1558703155 338337 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/block14]]4 block10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10blocked [[02User:Spammer attacks10]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled): "bad-hand" sockpuppeting, i.e. creating a new account to disrupt to make a point; please stick to your main account < 1558703201 160005 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric > 1558703389 709787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62558&oldid=62529 5* 03Ais523 5* (+843) 10/* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */ new section > 1558703984 269553 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62559&oldid=57670 5* 03A 5* (+502) 10Based on research, add an alternate account section. > 1558704169 978151 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62560&oldid=62559 5* 03A 5* (-503) 10Nope, it does not belong here. > 1558704188 984427 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Policy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62561&oldid=46490 5* 03A 5* (+357) 10 > 1558704307 17014 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62562&oldid=56960 5* 03A 5* (+163) 10/* Looks like */ > 1558704368 851285 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62563&oldid=62562 5* 03A 5* (+85) 10/* BSM */ < 1558704991 675408 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that A guy is weird > 1558705143 421368 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62564&oldid=62561 5* 03Ais523 5* (-163) 10/* Policy summary */ if we're putting this here (although it's kind-of obvious), let's make this a bit more policy-like; it may be better off just deleted though < 1558705286 752043 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who remembers User:Spammer attacks < 1558705540 425126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: it was a short-lived account < 1558705596 292971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:10:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spammer attacks * New user account < 1558705599 338879 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:05:55 [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Spammer attacks]] [...] < 1558705712 425334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And it was used to make the rather obvious point that a spammer can in principle easily overcome the new user introduction check, completely missing the point.) < 1558705748 283487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is that this actually does, for the time being, keep most spammers at bay.) < 1558705980 77916 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no protection against a directed attack < 1558706048 119215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but wiki spam generally isn't targeted. You scan the internet for Mediawikis and go through a create-account-then-create-a-garbage-page procedure, and move on. < 1558706175 799282 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not on small wikis. large wikis like en.wikipedia are targeted specifically. < 1558706185 787371 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas. < 1558706219 614963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, wikipedia is attractive because search engines rank it highly. :) < 1558706234 725474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and users as well) < 1558706448 982864 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we should just host unused mediawikis to encoyrage spammers to not hassle with small countermeasures < 1558706619 577868 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect there's strategies here for using mediawiki spammers as free labour < 1558706734 116478 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: no, we have that outsourced to wikia.com < 1558706738 556853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they host a lot of unused mediawikis < 1558706889 442525 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you mean like that plan when you host a website with some useful service, but make it serve captchas that are stolen from another website where you want to create spam accounts, let the users of your good website solve the captchas (whether they're legitimate users or other spammers is irrelevant), and forwarding the solutions to the website < 1558706889 929694 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're attacking? < 1558707947 252259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( s/useful service/free porn/ ) < 1558708015 874912 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, a non-useful service that people want to use might work better < 1558709632 910603 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558709659 411466 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558710015 930206 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without spam, we wouldn't have real fast nora < 1558710044 848385 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we would, it would just have a bad name < 1558710087 400948 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, *Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download < 1558710110 773358 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fail to memorize that < 1558710134 835860 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nora < 1558710136 437924 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nora? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558710142 429691 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? real < 1558710143 558321 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. < 1558710911 340351 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should that wisdom entry refer to Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download? < 1558711747 12358 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp nora < 1558711747 898478 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there. < 1558711761 769933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not very useful. < 1558713328 2905 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. < 1558713330 497844 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'real': The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. < 1558713338 651576 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? real < 1558713339 758155 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. < 1558713340 506266 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? earl < 1558713341 560938 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :earl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558713343 13585 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? lear < 1558713344 186813 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lear? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1558713817 668827 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558714016 364835 :sleepnap!~thomas@d14-69-163-248.try.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1558715615 936255 :sleepnap!~thomas@d14-69-163-248.try.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558716201 120456 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. => omg :D < 1558716350 766864 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I’ll try to be more constructive rather than post abbreviated reactions on random posts) < 1558716386 640054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I have some reading on linear logic. Can’t say now I understand it, but nonetheless it’s better < 1558716787 141005 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/have/had < 1558718421 206146 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1558721011 131911 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00e5d8eacffb2d33cb.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558721179 35147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1558721269 291631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: don't feel bad about that, it seems that nobody understands linear logic in its full generality, people only understand various restricted cases which either forbid some expressions or add more axioms < 1558721417 140796 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1084547915572568065 < 1558721602 909410 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558721624 173306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: heh < 1558721631 325864 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558721672 156697 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume someone had tried to use the traditional tensor index notation to linear logic? As their categories are quite similar… < 1558721718 207745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand that < 1558721731 370839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, meh, index notation can’t, as far as I know, represent ⊕ (vector one) < 1558721840 518451 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there’s that notation, liked especially by physicists, where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k f^k < 1558721843 643280 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1558721849 974621 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll need to edit that < 1558721941 470252 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k' v^k' for T = f ⊗ f ⊗ (Av), and which is often really helpful in trickier cases with many traces, (anti)symmetrizations and differentiations < 1558721996 280297 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn’t account for ⊕, so linear ⊕ and & wouldn’t be covered either < 1558722120 13314 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it does but I haven’t seen how it could be as visually simple and helpful as how ⊗ and various lifted tr’s and permutations are represented < 1558722193 699813 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :covariant and contravariant indices do speak of negation, though < 1558722204 256610 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s tempting < 1558722374 27210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do one need pure ⊕ and & at all? Maybe one could work at representing ! and ? only… hm, no < 1558722810 843838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though then I don’t understand how to represent even ⅋ < 1558722944 520008 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe there is a language akin to Martin-Löf-style type theory to write linear proofs. It should exist, as this logic is at least partially did find uses in programming, right? < 1558722966 967780 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequent-style things are hard on my head < 1558723664 874799 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: typically they look like "normal" languages but with an extra checking step which ensures liearity < 1558723688 302263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., Rust is an affine language, there is nothing syntactically preventing you from duplicating a value, but the compiler will complain < 1558723693 377451 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may be an unsatisfying answer < 1558723736 235055 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1558723830 386770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's only multiplicative linear logic or something, though. < 1558723855 102570 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Prolog, or maybe some linear variant of it, seems to me pretty similar to index notation. < 1558723884 449523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote about that in the past sometime. < 1558724167 665702 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I presume, an affine language has several additional term constructors, where can I read a more or less complete type system featuring them? To get some picture < 1558724211 982061 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a little bit about substructural types in ATaPL < 1558724256 470616 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Pierce’s? < 1558724301 372507 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean an advanced one or a simple one? (though I’ll take a look at both’s contents right away) < 1558724349 756053 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see, chapter 1 of advanced, thanks < 1558724371 86673 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully this time I’ll make something of it, having more background now < 1558724409 97585 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, I seem to remember something about that < 1558724444 902389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sigfpe wrote something about tensory things in Haskell < 1558724462 657156 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which shared something with this idea < 1558725643 120462 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558725655 653360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you probalby have to ask ais523 or read his thesis < 1558725698 386667 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, the python standard library seems to have a function that lets you recognize a louse < 1558725720 554172 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wow, where can I find the thesis? < 1558725739 437493 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, what’s it called < 1558725770 619880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c 'import itertools; help(itertools.islice)' < 1558725771 793208 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help on class islice in module itertools: \ \ class islice(builtins.object) \ | islice(iterable, stop) --> islice object \ | islice(iterable, start, stop[, step]) --> islice object \ | \ | Return an iterator whose next() method returns selected values from an \ | iterable. If start is specified, will skip all preceding elements; \ | otherwise, start defaults to zero. Step defaults to one. If \ | specified as another value, step determine < 1558725781 10140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I dunno, sorry < 1558725805 231919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a link somewhere from the channel logs < 1558725959 27048 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmm… then it’s more probable ais523 would instead come himself (noticing the mention) and link or hint to it < 1558726045 540253 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :islice => (rofl) unexpected < 1558727417 620502 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1558728315 253256 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.179.5.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558729326 372290 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558729621 730754 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00e5d8eacffb2d33cb.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558730515 165095 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.179.5.0 QUIT :Quit: è-h"cré-'"ç564*/'(tv'(8t-+b'14 < 1558730543 404318 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558730761 682795 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558731099 755448 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00807c293372fe475c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558732151 540991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558732195 583729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose I have a dodecahedron; I place a fork on the middle of each edge, and a dining philosopher on each corner < 1558732217 886017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the philosophers can eat if they can pick up two of the three adjacent forks < 1558732263 365205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :short of a global lock, is there any solution to this using the normal concurrency primitives, given that philosophers who want to eat need to start eating as soon as two forks are available, and shouldn't take any forks until two forks are available? < 1558732837 944707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, hmm. associate a condition variable to each philosopher that's signaled when a neighbouring fork is put back; then acquire forks in a predetermined global order? the global order is not nice in that it breaks the symmetry, but it's a standard way of avoiding deadlocks with many resources. < 1558732879 487844 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1558732996 256908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not thought this through yet. What exactly are the requirements wrt. fairness and starvation? < 1558733106 675211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ais523! < 1558733141 729497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have you seen the M:tG computation article I linked to? < 1558733180 21371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think there is a solution for it using mutexes, yes... let me think < 1558733193 60062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1558733208 520602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :any two of the three forks? that's tricky < 1558733260 578088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there isn't then... < 1558733307 177819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a moment, I'm in the middle of solving a code golf problem < 1558733327 945797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 Alex Churchill, Stella Biderman, Austin Herrick "Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete" < 1558733358 759252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, arseniiv wanted to ask something about affine something or another and I pointed to you < 1558733498 784681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi, yeah < 1558733628 601367 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :affine, linear, I’m not picky < 1558733876 197184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen it < 1558733902 244342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do look at it < 1558733907 944545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what's the question? that's "my field" (specifically affine logic, but linear's close enough that I picked a bit of that up too) < 1558733939 994205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's interesting enough, even if it's not strictly "better" than what you're doing. I even have a few comments about it from https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05-09.html#l6b < 1558733959 765661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I bet their deck can't actually win serious tournament games, but it might reach the other requirements I was aiming for < 1558733973 885072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I thought more about the wording of the rules for win conditions < 1558733975 803191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my comments don't tell everything, so it's better if you read the article < 1558733991 327202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading it, but I can't read and talk on IRC at the same time < 1558733999 64060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but there are some techniques they use that you should know about < 1558734007 270310 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00807c293372fe475c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558734018 325796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt the win conditions: I think you actually have three outcomes (not two): perfect loop, one player wins, and an infinite game that isn't a loop under M:tG's definition < 1558734105 748709 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for now, I’m only interested in basics. Say, some text on type theory for these logics. I think it’d clear many things for me, and I have no specific intentions above that yet < 1558734141 511669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: other outcomes are: the other player wins; the game is a draw for reasons other than a loop, such as losing life to get to zero life at the same time < 1558734158 221478 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558734161 661327 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc had already adviced me a chapter in Pierce’s advanced TaPL, I hadn’t yet read it < 1558734162 91929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I meant from my construction < 1558734162 226655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as for an infinite game that's not a loop, I don't think I understand M:tG's loop rules enough to be able to tell what counts as such < 1558734183 978454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's clear that the judges use a fairly narrow definition of loops < 1558734208 632321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: full linear logic is ridiculously complex and few people use the whole thing, there are some pretty nice fragments of it though < 1558734287 693019 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558734306 167215 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558734396 134861 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mhm, a type theory for any its subsystem would be perfectly okay. Also do I get it right affine logic should be less complex, or is it more? < 1558734397 611943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you might be interested in my PhD thesis , specifically chapter 5 < 1558734424 169759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an affine type system normally has exactly one more rule than the comparable linear type system < 1558734430 394637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, a weakening rule that lets you discard a variable from a context < 1558734459 498772 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the link! < 1558734464 749502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it rather depends on how you write the type system, there's more than one way to write them, with some of the more implicit methods the affine type system might be simpler I guess < 1558734512 444829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when you say judges use a narrow definition of loop, does "loop" mean when they allow a player to shortcut a loop without explaining all its details, or instead for awarding a draw for an infinite loop that can't be broken? < 1558734519 284051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand < 1558734529 4752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: both, I believe, although this is from memory so I'm not 100% sure < 1558734529 234506 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558734545 592207 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558734558 443066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't surprise me if the rules were poorly-defined in this case < 1558734577 206566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the infinite loop rules are poorly defined in at least some other sense < 1558734611 973876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for all I know, they might be well defined enough for the loops that you have in your turing-machine construction < 1558734630 136391 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're ones where the players can't make any meaningful choices < 1558734694 307768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, if we're going from The Waterfall Model, I suspect a loop in the M:tG sense either leaves all the counters the same, or possibly increases counters that never zero < 1558734715 134722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(come to think of it, this is pretty similar to what ratiofall optimizes at optimization level 2, except that ratiofall doesn't remember as much history) < 1558734728 971257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that the rules are supposed to imply that if the players can make no meaningful choices (other than resigning) and the game continues that way infinitely, that shall result in a draw. < 1558734759 680647 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand > right :) < 1558734815 156391 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that if the waterfall machine doesn't terminate, and you correctly start its simulation in M:tG, then the game is a draw < 1558734820 534703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :chapter 5's good for learning about affine type systems because it starts with a type system for (a mathematically idealized version of) Algol, a practical language, and then a few pages later shows the affine version of the same langauge < 1558734852 419366 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…) < 1558734886 157590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…) ← I like using left arrows < 1558734937 455960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop”of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw." ← I believe the current intention is to interpret "repeating" narrowly, not sure though < 1558734979 541532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"720.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated indefinitely (thus creating a“loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how the loop is broken." < 1558734987 828027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"720.1c Tournamentsuse a modified version of the rules governing shortcuts and loops. These rules are covered in the Magic: The GatheringTournament Rules (found at WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).Whenever the Tournament Rules contradict these rulesduring a tournament, the Tournament Rules take precedence." < 1558735008 933065 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn’t occur to me until a week or so ago it’s way better to start a quote with its author’s name, though. In another, way smaller, channel of three it worked before I started to misread my own posts < 1558735029 522215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, 720.4 is also relevant < 1558735035 110416 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1558735079 34137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: when not using the tournament rules, loops are clearly defined in 720.1c as being shortcuttable, and 720.2a disallows conditional actions in shortcuts < 1558735123 84752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, so you want to decide how this works per the tournament rules, not per just the comp rules? < 1558735125 931564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leads me to conclude that the loop must be a repeat of the exact same sequence of actions, so something as simple as the three-counter program where the time between counter switches grows exponentially is likely not a loop in the M:tG sense < 1558735126 89076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be differnt < 1558735171 414906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I think the three-counter program in question is simple enough to translate to a reasonable-looking M:tG gamestate < 1558735202 892433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4.4 Loops A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".) < 1558735212 177053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's /very/ clear < 1558735230 686943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we may be able to find a pretty simple infinite game < 1558735245 576030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. forced actions only, but without ever exactly repeating) < 1558735326 683177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, here we go: each player has no permanents in play, and in their library has four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi, all the other cards they started with got exiled somehow < 1558735358 710185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, ideally their maximum hand size should be 0 so they don't have a choice of what to discard < 1558735400 646718 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh wait wait, don’t you accidently remember a time I had asked about encoding different states of a life cycle of a value in its type, didn’t you by the way said something about substructural typing? I got to reading Pierce now and remembered about that poor idea < 1558735448 204660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: possibly; I don't remember that but it's not particularly out of character for me, it might have been someone else though < 1558735499 684079 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1558735561 882790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: OK, here's the situation: each player has two copies of Thought Devourer enchanted with Pacifisms on the battlefield, their library consists of four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi plus four copies of Evermind, graveyards are empty, rest of their deck is irrelevant cards in exile < 1558735589 860787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody can possibly do anything other than draw for turn and discard to hand size, discarding an Eldrazi titan forces a shuffle, discarding Evermind doesn't < 1558735617 353630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ir's clear that the game can't progress but it's also clearly not a loop under the tournament rules definitions and almost certainly not a loop under the comprehensive rules definitions either < 1558735621 254156 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558735640 909500 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a005946b78514557947.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1558735728 448740 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1558735728 559763 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1558735743 611977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was thinking like the oppoenent has a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and I have a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher under, and there are no other creatures on tb, and I cast a Faceless Butcher, < 1558735796 252201 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which according to the tournament rules isn't a loop, because for each trigger, the player has his choices restricted depending on what the opponent did before, so their actions will be conditional on the opponent's actions < 1558735801 34366 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I might be misunderstanding this < 1558735829 623604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps a better example would be some kind of power of two loop < 1558736085 942410 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, each player is locked down with an empty hand and a Null Profusion, and I have a Chronozoa < 1558736107 342111 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that wouldn't be conditional < 1558736129 390703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the loop actions wouldn't be "identical in each iteration", no matter how long you choose an iteration < 1558736135 142056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's aperiodic < 1558736177 663665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, aperiodic is probably sufficient < 1558736186 193872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, what you said works to make it conditional depending on randomness < 1558736445 276639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#magicjudges-rules just told me that this situation isn't actually covered by the rules at all < 1558736500 828857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... as for what the rules don't cover, at some point I should write a proper question about how linked abilities work, because I think the rules don't cover that either, but I'd like to know what the judges actually think < 1558736658 480775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was nice back when Wizards still had its own forum, and their rules manager read rules questions there and patched holes found < 1558736666 296314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they read the scryfall forum now? < 1558736684 509752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1558736687 632966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mtgsalvation forums < 1558736706 173766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they communicate only through twitter? < 1558736723 975876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :their employees come on Reddit occasionally, but it's very sporadic < 1558736752 484739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mark Rosewater's Tumblr account also used to have a lot of discussion; it probably still does but I can't access it any more because it's doing something weird wrt browsers < 1558736761 543660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I still want to know why Hollow Dogs is not a skeleton, but that's not the rules manager's thing < 1558737260 633693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I read the paper, that construction's way more complex than mine < 1558737276 500982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's implementing a Turing machine directly rather than something simple like The Waterfall Model < 1558737299 922699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I think they're wrong about an infinite loop being a draw unless it's a perfect loop, but it doesn't really change the main result of their paper < 1558737300 657030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes it is, partly because they don't seem to know about StackFlow < 1558737363 400159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the construction has some interesting elements, such as useful (in such constructions) cards that I didn't know abt < 1558737380 276401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWM is basically StackFlow with only one type of symbol < 1558737414 987024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you suppose we should email the corresponding author with some of the stuff you've figured out? < 1558737478 941170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWM matches M:tG even better, sure, because popping each stack at the same time is natural in MTG < 1558737510 298115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've emailed Alex Churchill in the past; also spoken to someone on Reddit who is highly likely to be Stella Biderman, although I don't know that for certain < 1558737564 799014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand their construction is small, in the sense that they know a TM that's much smaller than any universal waterfall program is likely to be < 1558737577 166596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they need less than 30 creature types < 1558737582 937453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discussing Turing-completeness and other stuff like that in Magic: the Gathering is also the point of news:un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.maths < 1558737595 169597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 10 counters is likely to be more than enough in TWM < 1558737604 488879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1558737606 486873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should get around to actually making a TCness proof rather than trying to optimise it < 1558737617 865560 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creatues have a lot of subtypes. < 1558737630 39288 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any construction that depends on exactly how many creature types are there? < 1558737647 638107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be very surprised if it's possible with 4; 5 is unlikely but the lowest number that would seem vaguely plausible; the true number is probably 7 or 8, I'd guess < 1558737653 550427 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(new version of the rules that they add some, then, will ruin it) < 1558737653 817145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I might not be able to find the construction < 1558737671 978710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: almost every construction has a minimum number of required creature types, but it's hard to see how a construction would have a maximum number < 1558737680 810105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need a card with rules text like "choose a creature type that hasn't been chosen" < 1558737723 356022 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know of one, but I imagine you could read the number of creature types, at least mod 2, with a construction that specifically tries to do that < 1558737773 643532 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, something like that was my idea < 1558737805 306788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you just need "choose a creature type, create a token", and another with "two creatures that share a creature type" < 1558737823 437215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, neat < 1558737834 322119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we can create a machine that can count how many creature types exist in Magic? < 1558737904 91963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1558737936 242529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses < 1558738011 648528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could also do that with card names using the un-card ____ < 1558738120 723667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses ← that sounds like it could be printable as an Un-card < 1558738121 249423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1558738137 583663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it's probably possible to set it up with some combo or other < 1558738173 414867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's something simple you could do in a deck that's at least as viable as your potence deck after you go off: < 1558738304 959632 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a Mistform Wall grown to 50/50, give your opponent 1000 clones of Riders of Gavony < 1558738334 752688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get to list any number of creature types, and after that, if you can choose a creature type that they forgot, you win < 1558738368 10832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a tournament, I think they wouldn't be allowed to look at the rules that list all creature types < 1558738373 334455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd have to do it off the top of their head < 1558738421 179561 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, you also couldn't look at notes < 1558738430 723331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to learn creature types in advance < 1558738456 574438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this too is one that's harder to pull off than to just win < 1558738739 518637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop. < 1558738759 14325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun :-) < 1558739240 666799 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1558739458 142693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely different thing. In Budapest, on air-conditioned trams, each door has a timeout so if nobody goes through the door, the door closes, even if the tram is still standing in the station, and passangers can reopen the door by pressing the exit button, either from the inside or the outsied < 1558739528 384832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I was in the Netherlands for a holiday. In Amsterdam, the tram doors close on a timeout, but there's no sensor recognizing that passengers are passing through it, so they close on a timer even while people are actively getting off or on. < 1558739560 145008 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So like every third passenger has to press the button while passengers are getting off, or else the door agressively closes on them. < 1558739572 269670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since Amsterdam is full of tourists, passengers often don't know this. < 1558739583 524187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very annoying user interface decision for apparently no reason. < 1558739681 955687 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's odd < 1558739697 912001 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trams here sometimes open their doors automatically and sometimes don't and it confuses me < 1558739701 848840 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure exactly what determines it < 1558739707 511629 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they always open underground < 1558739761 631612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, in Budapest there's still one annoying case when a tram door can close on passengers. The "TW 6000" type trams have high stairs in the doors, with two intermediate steps, both of which are wobbly so people try to avoid stepping on them. There's a pressure sensor for at least one of the steps, and a photosensor a quite low height. < 1558739770 135413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, many causes of train-related accidents have been reduced to a pretty low levle, leaving "people getting stuck in doors" as a fairly large proportion of train incidents < 1558739785 62734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that there's a lot of pressure to try to reduce the frequency with which they occur < 1558739792 351314 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lady got her hair stuck in the ddors and got dragged by a train here :O < 1558739795 976148 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think she was ok < 1558739796 575345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so train doors can act quite bizarrely sometimes, especially when they're closing < 1558739797 137696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :When someone is getting on with a baby carriage (pram), they usually try lift the carriage straight up from the ground to the high tram floor, which bypasses both the photosensor and the weight sensor, < 1558739798 488976 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary though < 1558739808 946502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the tram door can try to close on the baby carriage, which is pretty annoying. < 1558739809 493065 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: tricky < 1558739823 593077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But frankly, that type of tram is terrible anyway because of the two wobbly steps. < 1558739827 398272 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :low floor trams w/o steps are much better < 1558739848 180192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That type currently runs on tram line 24. < 1558739873 843440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: the UK does the reverse pretty much, instead of a low floor they have high platforms on the kerb that let you get up to the level of the tram before stepping onto it < 1558739893 594182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are the only places the tram stops < 1558739899 104847 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558739907 474822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in Birmingham/Wolverhampton, at least, other cities' tram systems may be different) < 1558739910 311437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we have high platforms on some lines, but they're not as high as proper high floors, only as high as the higher low floor trams. < 1558739985 302599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that a tram with high floor has more space for people and seats, because the wheel assemblies are below the floor, whereas in low floor trams they protrude so much above the floors that you can only put one-and-a-half wide seats on them, which is really a waste. < 1558739994 920982 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1558740000 530484 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here there are mini high platforms for disabled people < 1558740007 213698 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the train only stops there on request < 1558740008 937405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This wasted space is the reason why high floor trams were used so much. < 1558740012 976687 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not every aboe ground stop has them) < 1558740016 931160 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stairs are motorized < 1558740024 557047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the provision for disabled people on the trains (as opposed to the trams) is weird < 1558740028 785047 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it's at a mini high platform, or in the underground segments, the stairs go up for level boarding < 1558740041 137331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's normally a gap in both horizontal and vertical directions between train and platform < 1558740067 300682 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are going to convert Caltrain (the commuter rail) to high platforms, and to do so they have ordered new trains (they have to anyway, because of electrification) which have two sets of doors at different heights < 1558740067 802071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if a wheelchair-bound person wants to board a staff member from the station has to arrive with a portable ramp to let them on and off < 1558740072 586735 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit silly but probably the best way to manage it < 1558740078 130988 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah that's how it works on Caltrain right now < 1558740103 565718 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a very silly regulatory difficulty with high platforms < 1558740109 176328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mind the gap" is a very common announcement at British rail stations and aboard trains, to the point that it became a meme several decade ago < 1558740110 469614 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that a few freight trains use the caltrain line < 1558740122 12749 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is still legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight trains < 1558740127 304900 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they couldn't clear the high platforms < 1558740144 435826 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's fancy automated ramps in buses here. < 1558740150 250916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been mostly replaced with "please mind the gap between the train and the platform edge" which is less snappy, but still possibly memable < 1558740152 573509 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fun when you're on the platform and a freight train blows through < 1558740168 608919 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed in Poland that there was often a large gap between the train and the platform < 1558740171 589595 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like almost a foot < 1558740174 377023 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the tube stations with curved platforms have pretty substatial gaps, on some sets of doors. < 1558740174 420341 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems dangerous < 1558740180 920089 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the loading gauges are not very standardized < 1558740181 78139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a foot is /small/ for the UK < 1558740193 255061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although people falling into the gaps is fairly rare < 1558740202 693530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in some parts of the Amsterdam Schiphol airport, some automatic speakers say "mind your step" very often. I think it's related to the walking strips (horizontal conveyor belts for humans, with fences like that of escalators). < 1558740202 950582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it's "avoid the step down from the train to the platform". < 1558740204 447319 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the curved stations in the NYC subway, at least some of them, have motorized gap fillers that pop out when the train stops < 1558740225 735650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there was an incident a while back where someone fell into the gap and got stuck and they recruited pretty much the entire passenger list of the train to push the train a few millimetres sideways to let them escape) < 1558740241 523745 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The jump down from Southern's trains at Clapham Junction is sometimes ridiculously high. < 1558740274 513684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight _trains_? wow < 1558740278 634341 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1558740280 369198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen that here < 1558740292 902444 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be useful, if they are street running < 1558740295 59082 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or working in yards < 1558740299 429565 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see why it would be necessary on a mainline < 1558740319 648057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "street running" mean? < 1558740321 205712 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume they have some solution to this because high platforms are at least supposedly going forward < 1558740328 832843 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tracks down the middle of the street, like a tram, but with freight trains on them < 1558740334 525398 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems mad but this is actually common in the USA < 1558740344 351826 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Oakland the Amtrak train runs in the street < 1558740350 55856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how I initially parsed it but I discarded the meaning because it didn't make sense :-D < 1558740377 495517 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-23cV1uZvYU&t=1m34s < 1558740385 85371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also (this isn't a user-interface thing) in Rotterdam, the north metro line has trains that can take power from either third rail or overhead wire, because which one exists depends on which part of the line they are in < 1558740393 283596 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally freight trains will go very slow < 1558740396 685032 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :< 5 mph when street running < 1558740411 384260 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a result, and because freight trains are quite long, they block people from crossing the street for an extended period < 1558740434 556261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: there are some trains like that in the UK, I think just because they manufacture them both ways so they can sell them to multiple train companies, it's hardly any extra components < 1558740455 318244 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06QcAIBcXfs < 1558740455 975721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, < 1558740456 934573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :overhead is much more common in the UK but third rail is moderately common too < 1558740469 297723 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah < 1558740473 967898 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: same on Boston's blue line < 1558740485 332890 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they switch from third rail to overhead (outbound, inbound the reverse) at Airport station < 1558740499 817929 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I heard is that they were worried the third rail would corrode when the track is near the sea < 1558740506 790734 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like it wouldn't be properly insulated from ground or something < 1558740517 108459 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on MUNI they just use overhead wires even in the tunnel segments < 1558740521 192761 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most european trams are the same? < 1558740548 117139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also speaking of confusing UIs, there's three kinds of door-opening buttons on South Western Railway trains: some are edge-triggered (so if you start holding them down before they're activated, the door won't open), some are level-triggered (so you *should* hold them down from the get-go, for optimal speed) and some are what I'm not sure there's a name for, pulse-triggered, integral-triggered, the kind < 1558740554 556905 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :of things where (presumably because of hydraulics or pneumatics) you have to hold them long enough, if you just do a short press it makes a noise and maybe opens a cm or two but then closes again. < 1558740556 176014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Birmingham-to-Wolverhampton trams are overhead lines everywhere, although there aren't many tunnels on that route < 1558740572 439559 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those last ones confuse the non-habitual passengers the most. < 1558740589 153060 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: debounced? low-pass filtered? < 1558740613 633 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that. Though it feels more like it's just physics and not really a feature. < 1558740621 843637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes: in Budapest on the M3 metro, I believe each carriage has four contact boots for the third rail on their left, and four on the right, and there are six carriages per train < 1558740638 864261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commuting by train is all about millisecond optimizations in door-opening strategies. < 1558740648 607292 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that and positioning. < 1558740665 736633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way they can bridge short gaps in the third rail, such as you have at forks in the rail < 1558740698 968073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: for me it's at least partly about organising my day so that I can go to as many of the places I want to go to on a single ticket < 1558740731 289103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've talked about the open buttons in Budapest, they have some annoying properties too < 1558740733 725860 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For my previous commute there was a fixed relationship between the embarkation platform position and the disembarkation one, independent of the train, but from my current starting point you have to factor in the number of cars, because now that affects how it stops. :/ < 1558740784 456103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also have to allow for different stations having entrances in different places relative to the train < 1558740835 917315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at Birmingham New Street it's much harder because you have to allow for the trains stopping in different places relative to the platform based on where they're going next (often they terminate there), on which platforms are available, and on whether other trains are using the same platform at the same time < 1558740857 154116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. But usually there's time on the starting station to walk around, so it's just all about choosing the spot which drops you off at the exit at where you're going. And I'm always going to the same place. < 1558740869 638995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both Amsterdam and Rotterdam, trams also have proxy sensors in each door, where you're required to touch your ticket or pass both when you get on and off, even if it's a kind of pass that's good for an unlimited amount of travels within a time limit < 1558740893 766379 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our office lift doors are super-aggressive, and (hearsay) that's because we got a group of Kone engineers to come in and tweak them after everyone complained about the wait times. < 1558740901 665325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably there's a lot of knobs they can tweak. < 1558740907 183508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's why many train doors have steps that are close to vertical, as in a ladder < 1558740961 168283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: knobs? I thought they'd connect a laptop to the control panel and upload a new firmware or something < 1558740970 583648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean software knobs < 1558740971 257867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1558740973 530290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1558740984 737329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although < 1558740985 759576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1558740990 649304 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elevators have a pretty long lifetime < 1558741000 292244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so their still exist ones controlled by old electronics < 1558741037 826892 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there are some pretty old elevators around. But this is a new building. < 1558741059 205979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost anything that contains a timer, there's normally a pretty simple way to adjust the length of time it takes < 1558741084 365898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with hardwired electronics you'd probably just need to change a capacitor or resistor < 1558741095 294400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both of those components are available in a huge range of values < 1558741098 733312 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also got that thing where there's no buttons inside, you enter the destination floor number to call one, and the panel tells you which lift to take. < 1558741104 517396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1558741107 66865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I presume is more efficient at least on paper. < 1558741113 477773 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the really old relay based elevator controllers are so cool < 1558741113 513193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1558741123 798781 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you enter the destination floor outside? I have never seen that < 1558741128 171330 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1558741135 976620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that exist in real life? < 1558741138 121994 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard of that before, but I have not seen it. < 1558741139 52714 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it'll say a letter from A to E. < 1558741145 315224 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where those are the 5 shafts. < 1558741147 70530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for, like elevators controlled by untrained people? < 1558741155 863788 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Dvg7DhCtg < 1558741158 919607 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that transport people < 1558741169 25876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: there's one of those in the University of Birmingham (although not in the building where I work0 < 1558741175 238451 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen those! you enter the number and it dynamically decides which elevator will serve which floors < 1558741180 902001 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than people getting in and then telling it < 1558741182 910823 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :more efficient < 1558741196 565532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for efficiency, it can allow some of the lifts to skip certain floors < 1558741202 124834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen such a thing < 1558741210 726727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people going long-distance can get express journeys with few stops < 1558741238 460459 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've got those in two of the London offices. < 1558741247 699069 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen cases when there's a set of linked elevators with shared call buttons, and it decides which elevator you shall take, but they only have two call buttons on a storey (one up and one down), so you still enter the destination floor with buttons inside < 1558741260 454634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: about how many floors does that serve? < 1558741271 277399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either 12 or 16, I forget which < 1558741275 97078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tall building < 1558741276 156094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1558741297 656942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm just not paying attention, because I usually prefer to take stairs over elevators < 1558741300 746681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for your "set of linked elevators" case, I'm surprised that you consider that surprising or atypical, it's by far the most common arrangement when more than one is needed < 1558741301 335047 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ours are 11 and... somewhere around 9, I forget, I don't go to CSG much. < 1558741325 908503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but it's sort of new too, old elevators didn't use to have those < 1558741333 240759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not considering it surprising or atypical < 1558741346 655113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that's one of what we have, in the few buildings that have more than one elevators < 1558741348 932622 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-deck_elevator was a thing until recently. < 1558741360 557042 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like you could necessarily tell if the shaft's not visible. < 1558741390 215494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow. so that's like a cross between a traditional elevator and a paternoster < 1558741394 342382 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've in fact been in two of the London ones (Shard and 20 Fenchurch Street aka the Walkie-Talkie) without knowing. < 1558741395 882351 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's clever < 1558741401 664287 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2x capacity without more shafts < 1558741405 530230 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would love to try a paternoster < 1558741409 44420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem terrifying < 1558741418 101812 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: There's a paternoster in the Finnish parliament building. < 1558741424 686172 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if visitors get to use it though. < 1558741426 236718 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not. < 1558741427 786971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the building I'm talking about used to have one but it was removed before I started working here < 1558741430 919109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably for safety reasons < 1558741436 584243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that would be nice for building E of BME, since many people get in both on floor 0 and on floor 1 < 1558741437 42113 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like the European elevators where there's no internal door < 1558741443 237484 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the shaft going by is exposed < 1558741448 541159 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each floor has a door you open manually < 1558741452 480213 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least they have interlocks -- usually < 1558741460 288072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: paternosters aren't terrifying in reality < 1558741468 864245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not more than normal elevators at least < 1558741490 6274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, apparently it's only for people who work in the building. < 1558741515 198160 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnishparliament/36082539733 < 1558741555 278822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do the paternosters stop if someone gets stuck in them? < 1558741561 965769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a hospital here with a paternoster. the labels say that only employees are allowed to use it, for liability reasons, but everyone ignores that rules, because the other elevators that patients or visitors can use don't have enough capacity < 1558741572 147732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they stop at every floor rather than just running continuously? < 1558741601 606556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that building also has an elevator or two that only employees can use and they use key locks to enforce that) < 1558741606 769256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it crosses my mind that some sort of "quantized paternoster" could have internal and external doors, it'd be slow (due to stopping at every floor) but have enormous capacity < 1558741607 429959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they run continuously < 1558741625 387491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably they'd have to stop if someone was caught between the cab and floor outside it < 1558741629 95649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know what happens if soneone gets stuck in between the carriage and the floor < 1558741638 580361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone only got stuck in the carriage, it would continue to run < 1558741669 63367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm yes, I guess that could exist, but might only be worth for pretty tall buildings < 1558741698 416190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it'd be better with only external doors < 1558741719 473701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with internal doors is that they and the mechanism to open and close it would add a lot of weight, which matters when you have lots of carriages < 1558741775 437305 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing about "you specify the destination floor outside" is that where I live *doesn't* have those, so sometimes I enter the lift here, go in, and just wait. < 1558741795 113588 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1558741807 99950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: um... that sounds like backwards < 1558741812 230008 :sleepnap!~thomas@d149-67-17-16.nap.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1558741828 666619 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"here" was at home, if that makes it less backwards. < 1558741833 578180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleepnap: wakey, wakey! < 1558741917 630468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1558741922 408273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aren't you used to the ones at home? < 1558742023 2721 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. At work there's all these meetings, and the meeting room situation is a disaster, so there's a lot of going up and down around the building. < 1558742044 275053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it's more just home -> street and back, and I take the stairs down anyway. < 1558742055 784104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1558742159 191 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558742196 432340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kone is a Finnish company, but I don't think everyone realizes that because it's got a short and not ostentatiously Finnish name. < 1558742236 394355 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify the elevator control at your home so it goes to your floor by default when idl ethen < 1558742242 113596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a workaround < 1558742286 676607 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's a reasonably benign issue, because once you realize, the control panel is right there. < 1558742287 907473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simpler for me: there's no elevator in the house where I live, nor in the office where I work, nor in the house where my parents live < 1558742312 975471 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use the stairs instead, and then you don't have to worry about that < 1558742316 62865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The opposite mistake, which is harder to make, has more serious consequences, because once you've entered the work elevators you just end up wherever they decide to take you. < 1558742347 509512 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although I think there's probably a "please open the doors" button inside?) < 1558742387 133547 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing with the work elevators is that if you enter the floor you're already on, the lady that speaks you which one to take sounds very cross.