< 1558916887 584381 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558916908 41825 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1558916921 416981 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello > 1558917019 623211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62744&oldid=62743 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+9) 10 < 1558917106 213431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1558917138 112811 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope the esolang community grows in the future < 1558917147 878744 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more people create esolangs < 1558917167 251282 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and if you have a idea of esolangs then you can do it too < 1558917191 679088 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you make any esolangs < 1558917199 792852 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just designed one < 1558917256 25054 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a idea I mentioned on this IRC perhaps a week ago I don't remember exactly when, and I should put it into the esolang wiki too < 1558917270 135632 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1558917334 421020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you A? < 1558917345 13835 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A? < 1558917348 27774 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A? < 1558917362 548324 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm U < 1558917379 36543 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making a meta lang < 1558917385 298033 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that esoteric enough? < 1558917421 423700 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait until i understand what a meta lang is... < 1558917427 877736 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's see what you make, anyways < 1558917434 190205 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1558917440 820449 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you post it on the wiki? < 1558917528 468490 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me? < 1558917582 332170 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1558917602 764626 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you didn't finish it yet < 1558917637 965978 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna see the AST? < 1558917638 929171 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/hm4k4 < 1558917649 828025 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny enough, I don't actually have a syntax yet < 1558917698 317964 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting... you could make the syntax quickly < 1558917703 878416 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could never decide between (@var x 2) and var $ x = 2 < 1558917725 878388 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, creation clusters < 1558917747 557076 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(@var x 2) looks unfamiliar < 1558917760 865277 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@defn f(x) = x + 1 < 1558917762 355520 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1558917772 739918 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit my language already exists < 1558917778 301061 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(5) < 1558917784 651859 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1558917800 386049 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot? < 1558917805 937819 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :defn $f(x) = x + 1 < 1558917825 498552 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+1 to the first one < 1558917854 18687 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but both of them distinguish between names and keywords, whihc is a good style < 1558917863 597277 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways a fundamental goal was to make elseif really easy < 1558917874 549252 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1558917891 274550 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent a lot of time trying to combine trinary and if-elif-else < 1558917902 175437 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote it all down somewhere < 1558917919 10197 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think lambdabot will run Haskell codes, not yours < 1558917932 802673 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@defn g(x) = x + 1 < 1558917934 353333 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1558917937 506678 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1558917948 129818 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there are bindings, declarations, and applications < 1558917951 40633 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although what you wrote, I think happens to be valid in Haskell too) < 1558917956 755326 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, haskell doesn't have @ðefn < 1558917966 167947 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scope of bindings's variables is within the body < 1558917978 805233 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scope of declarations' variables is unlimited < 1558917985 660208 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like lua < 1558917994 223249 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and applications can't introduce any variables < 1558918001 977693 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like every language < 1558918015 802479 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it started as a compilation target for every language < 1558918018 791524 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lua, every undeclared variable returns nil < 1558918050 359352 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's my esolang btw, it's very sensitive, don't touch it hardly: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Point < 1558918065 211655 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I finally came to the conclusion that there really isn't any difference between statements and applications unless you start thinking Haskellish < 1558918095 316138 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who work the haskell way are rare < 1558918124 179158 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean think < 1558918186 609665 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I started creating an instruction set < 1558918199 208977 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i smell assembly? < 1558918202 799583 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would fill in the places after decls/ bindings/funcs < 1558918217 624234 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in MathML there are only bindings and functions, no declarations < 1558918224 260105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes use assembly language, for a few different kind of computers/VMs < 1558918225 260509 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language is essentially MathML + declarations < 1558918233 601581 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1558918268 991126 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "instruction set" of MathML is stuff like plus, times, differentiald, binomial, and amillion other things that MathML3 people thought should be in there < 1558918285 702883 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is my instruction set: < 1558918287 515152 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://andydude.github.io/drosera-cdbase/dscdbase/cd/prog2.xhtml < 1558918332 316823 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty rich < 1558918360 22485 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reference, this is the MathML related standard: https://www.openmath.org/cd/prog1.html < 1558918385 842328 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically does a terrible job of representing computation < 1558918394 97647 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to make your interpreter/compiler code-golfed, i suggest that you leave just the fundamental instructions < 1558918420 451933 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's code golf < 1558918437 265817 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making code as short as possible < 1558918443 297775 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, like J? < 1558918496 722502 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1558918506 271560 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck is on the list too < 1558918527 449558 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people also put an eye on RAM usage < 1558918538 16751 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower usage, the better < 1558918573 18764 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower the* usage > 1558918584 761374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62745 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+1247) 10Created page with "This programming language consists of: * Zero or more inputs, which are natural numbers * Zero or more registers, each of which has a fixed maximum (defined by the program), a..." < 1558918669 888012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you can see what I wrote: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_2 < 1558918692 984625 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what do you mean by input? < 1558918708 326657 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do MMIX and EBC constitute esolangs? < 1558918744 887640 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of them < 1558918759 285197 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Maybe it constitutes "quasi-esolangs". (I know MMIX, but not EBC) < 1558918764 348242 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're technically assembly languages < 1558918787 298158 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlimiter: It is an input to the program. < 1558918788 394697 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :EBC is EFI ByteCode < 1558918797 807730 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that is what it is. < 1558918815 4682 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you mean like, from stdin? < 1558918839 607469 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposedly to increase the chances of portable, universal drivers for everything so you never have to port a driver or write a driver more than once, and so far as I know, it has been used... never < 1558918852 910066 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlimiter: It depends on the implementation, because my specification does not specify where the input comes from, but yes it can, if the inputs have an order you could put one number on each line for example. < 1558918866 468709 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1558918871 66044 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558918877 842570 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It could also be considered like a function, rather than standard I/O, could be another way) < 1558919055 532493 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Have you used MMIX or EBC? I used MMIX. < 1558919075 44411 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.177.14.224 QUIT :Quit: chocolate! < 1558919075 423282 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a ton of MMIX, I have only heard of EBC < 1558919139 65147 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1558919246 130383 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think an opensource EBC assembler exists < 1558919256 410777 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure the only implementation is intel-cc < 1558919299 768034 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you used 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language? < 1558921080 942934 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1558924128 525172 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558924133 903877 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1558924627 974280 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1558924743 526321 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know why in the All The Tropes, the anti-heroes goes from I to V but the anti-villains goes only from I to IV and not V? < 1558924945 277944 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an anti-villain < 1558925355 194282 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558925627 185034 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558927826 55819 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an anti-hero < 1558927945 423654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an anti-histamine < 1558929344 107972 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is described in the All The Tropes, I think, what is anti-villain and anti-hero. > 1558929407 199945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62746&oldid=61763 5* 03A 5* (+230) 10/* Computational class */ < 1558929551 154784 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558929644 327350 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poking my head in here-is Volatile's instruction set minimal, or can it be minimized? < 1558929646 880710 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558929709 38990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well. < 1558929817 305474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.) < 1558930111 121387 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558930134 54169 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well. < 1558930144 691372 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.) < 1558930156 66160 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1558930157 384614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree on both counts. < 1558930264 355431 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: fortunately I have time to post messages here. Sorry for immediately quitting... > 1558930560 682096 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62747&oldid=62737 5* 03A 5* (+255) 10/* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */ < 1558930635 931825 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1558930722 158967 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate. < 1558930919 118738 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558930930 660847 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate. < 1558930961 674245 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__: Please stop pasting what people say into the channel like that. It's quite rude. < 1558931239 769064 :A__!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PART :#esoteric > 1558931673 109833 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Along and Across14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62748&oldid=55361 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+338) 10 < 1558931863 226882 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558932123 218745 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2106:5246:ae44:2072 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558935314 888725 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( A__ntagonize ) < 1558935768 69973 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4089:c173:f6ab:abca JOIN :#esoteric < 1558936044 62194 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4089:c173:f6ab:abca QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1558936938 502831 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sticks and Stones14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62749 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4754) 10low-level physical computation model idea, probably incomplete > 1558937087 323825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62750&oldid=62727 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+579) 10/* Reducing the Command Set */ new section < 1558937232 114167 :Usera!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558937255 73316 :Usera!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558937819 955796 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood < 1558938431 782642 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1558938919 109795 :esowiki_!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558938966 808957 :esowiki_!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( O__ntaganize ) < 1558939001 527402 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4089:c173:f6ab:abca JOIN :#esoteric < 1558939002 287022 :esowiki_!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558939275 510107 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4089:c173:f6ab:abca QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1558939295 110010 :A__ntagonize!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558939304 102528 :A__ntagonize!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PART :#esoteric < 1558939500 258002 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__dapt, I__mprovide, O__vercome < 1558939502 631436 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s < 1558939539 126620 :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558939542 826025 :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558939624 241097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh you can try to impersonate people and bots on IRC, who'd have thought! < 1558939647 110691 :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558939647 146125 :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 QUIT :Client Quit < 1558939684 592203 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, there is the address can be seen; the last octet seems to be changing a bit but the rest of the address is same as before < 1558939699 115025 :A__!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558939712 237355 :A__!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The maximum nickname length is 16 characters. < 1558939715 292949 :A__!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PART :#esoteric < 1558939716 225031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ah but I filter those, too noisy in general. < 1558939739 306288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__nswering all the important questions. < 1558940311 194392 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4089:c173:f6ab:abca JOIN :#esoteric < 1558940375 932217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: whoalsner < 1558940394 242882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer to be able to execve my C programs. < 1558940424 787924 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a binfmt module that looks for C code < 1558940429 343088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Maybe I could define a magic number on my system. < 1558940430 788963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that. < 1558940463 348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is kind of funny, but actually not too bad. < 1558940488 293416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have a binfmt like "//BUILDFLAGS" and include all the cc flags to pass when building a program. < 1558940491 904943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is useful anyway. < 1558940563 685425 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first line of my C programs have "#if 0" (and then the second line is gcc), so if you do that too, then you can use that, perhaps. < 1558940568 56160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, I have all sorts of weird binfmts already. < 1558940582 567789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like 330d0d0a for python3 < 1558940732 731437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this already exists: https://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/binfmtc.html.en < 1558940893 895375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Maybe I should just use binfmt to replace #! entirely with something more reasonable. < 1558940933 747229 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there the possibility to emulate other operating systems and instruction sets if executing a ELF program that specifies those systems (if you have a emulator installed)? < 1558941058 829100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :WINE has a binfmt_misc format for executing Windows .exe files. < 1558941120 45267 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Mono also have one? < 1558941182 327756 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1558941187 762246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you do if you want both. < 1558941486 496742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is great. < 1558941497 259514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc < 1558941498 242553 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access '/proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc': No such file or directory < 1558941502 633227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /proc < 1558941503 409771 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 18 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 5 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cmdline \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpagecount \ kpageflags \ loadavg \ locks \ meminfo \ misc \ mounts \ net \ pagetypeinfo \ partitions \ self \ slabinfo \ softirqs \ stat \ swaps \ < 1558942379 493496 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood < 1558942751 149136 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1558942751 358813 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62751&oldid=62511 5* 03Int-e 5* (+5377) 10/* A Turing machine */ New section. > 1558942802 522051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62752&oldid=62751 5* 03Int-e 5* (-947) 10/* Computational class */ update and shorten section > 1558943007 572268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62753&oldid=62720 5* 03Int-e 5* (-3684) 10/* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ replace contents by reference > 1558943105 903556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62754&oldid=62752 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* Computational class */ cosmetics > 1558944560 821371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62755&oldid=62753 5* 03Int-e 5* (+314) 10/* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ this has moved partially... < 1558944980 774000 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood < 1558945532 500103 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1558946675 130395 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1558946746 589382 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62756&oldid=62754 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-16) 10Update category for TC (I miss the BSM with limited unbounded ability) < 1558948191 925552 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558948218 861636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I still don't know how broken Typeable is right now. < 1558948239 761419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I an tell MD5 is not known to be broken enough to construct Typeable collisions. < 1558948246 639433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's mostly an accident. < 1558948275 615174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, same here. A generic 2^64 attack is feasible in principle, of course. < 1558948313 645498 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1558948318 431753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true. < 1558948323 795110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how expensive it would be. < 1558948337 581360 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558948354 106560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too expensive for me :) < 1558948491 416555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/epixoip/a83d38f412b4737e99bbef804a270c40 claims 200e9 MD5/s onn 8 GPUs < 1558948494 416317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/nn/n/ < 1558948516 239037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably fairly recent GPUs because it's a recent paste. < 1558948527 199065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60 < 1558948529 809398 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 49.35499023497802 < 1558948553 72124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :18e18 is a *lot*. < 1558948582 818771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1558948596 425328 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60*24*1000 < 1558948599 167431 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 63.90573702036127 < 1558948610 223002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you ran 1000 of those systems for day that would be pretty close. < 1558948619 17330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, BTC is doing 50e18 SHA1 hashes per second. < 1558948649 722218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA2? < 1558948689 181759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's currently worth about $100k per 10 minutes. < 1558948720 72225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but we only need 1 second. < 1558948728 475928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if one could harness that kind of power for MD5 at a similar price that would come to about $50 :) < 1558948741 186159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty cheap. < 1558948752 142786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But presumably that's amortizing the cost of ASICs and so on. < 1558948760 241700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ASIC, cheap electricity, and a huge fixed cost. < 1558948846 261155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right, which hash... < 1558948863 805072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah SHA-256. My bad. < 1558948879 635153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also are those single or double hashes? < 1558948891 975036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it makes a big difference, really. < 1558948938 454125 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Single I suppose because hash rate is how people sell devices? I don't know. < 1558948946 433868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTC is an annoying curiosity to me, mostly. < 1558948955 614360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1558948967 665419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My hash function is so powerful that it's not only preimage-resistant but also image-resistant. < 1558948979 839710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More than annoying because all that electricity is being wasted.) < 1558948990 555379 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: see argon2 ;-) < 1558949011 49331 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just thinking maybe key derivation functions qualify. < 1558949030 822366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the whole cryptocurrency currency thing is a net negative. < 1558949086 224443 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that's good about it is that it reminds me that even if a lot of people are really into something and think it'll change the world and so on, it might still be nonsense. < 1558949235 569196 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway brute-force of 2^64 hashes is clearly feasible for any entity that's really serious about it. < 1558949247 365629 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seems a little too expensive to say "I told you so". < 1558949600 916371 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to understand differential paths for MD5 for that reason. But progress is slow, and it's not a priority. < 1558949718 561276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^50 hashes would be quite feasible. < 1558949743 920542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know how realistic that is, with all those fixed zero bits. < 1558949772 577726 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558949783 913556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at some papers about MD5 collisions and some algorithms and they all seem very complicated. < 1558949853 525925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what annoys me is how so many papers start with "we use the following differential path" and never explain where that ingredient comes from. < 1558949935 721994 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They hardly explain what a differential path is.) < 1558949956 140528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Golly. So many things to learn. < 1558950010 189546 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But once you have that out of the way, the methods rely on computing a huge part of the message from "necessary conditions" before the "point of verification". So that fails when most of the message bits are fixed. < 1558950084 813310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember something like that. You figure out some intermediate state and then see what bits of the hashed text must be to produce it. < 1558950108 741711 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, the text that is to be hashed, not the hash. < 1558950662 550926 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558950914 256174 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1558951139 68572 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1558951832 535152 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1558952059 28917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like SAT solvers? < 1558952060 887264 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558952259 39797 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1558952757 848306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not always < 1558952783 955780 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like SAT solver algorithms? < 1558952917 960492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There must be a "conflicted" pun in here. < 1558952951 291711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from *C*DCL) > 1558952952 867413 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62757&oldid=62755 5* 03A 5* (-379) 10 < 1558952980 223784 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like "2-watched literal"? < 1558953014 33312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One fancy thing about it is that when you backtrack you don't need to undo any state. < 1558953052 363985 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1558953066 361577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know other backtracking algorithms like that? < 1558953159 152308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? this is part of the unit (generally constraint) propagation, not of the backtracking/backjumping. < 1558953190 719892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean: Other backtracking algorithms that keep track of state that explicitly doesn't need to be rewound. < 1558953400 193094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.92.705 is worth a look... it just drops constraints during backtrack/backjump, but keeps all other changes to the tableux. < 1558953405 241677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tableau < 1558953512 455717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how well fancy SAT solvers do at exact cover compared to dancing links? < 1558953555 161983 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1558953590 687424 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that paper looks interesting, I should read it. > 1558953968 475909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62758&oldid=62508 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10bitch is TC < 1558954033 392754 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1558954049 922861 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954049 958202 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1558954049 958269 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954095 539678 :aloril__!~aloril@mobile-access-6df011-36.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1558954203 359480 :aloril__!~aloril@mobile-access-6df011-36.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954227 225772 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954227 269141 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1558954227 269185 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954334 213092 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558954452 544233 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: unclear, but I argue on the wiki that MMIX is an esolang > 1558954875 123676 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62759&oldid=62736 5* 03A 5* (+46) 10 > 1558954952 427556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62760&oldid=62759 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 < 1558955622 390449 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1558955682 932276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62761&oldid=62760 5* 03A 5* (-114) 10 < 1558955786 928980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558956023 512339 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558956033 583207 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1558956459 557729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1558957124 297446 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62762&oldid=62761 5* 03A 5* (+79) 10I will undo this edit later. > 1558957135 158114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62763&oldid=62762 5* 03A 5* (-79) 10Undo revision 62762 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) < 1558957898 733537 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1558958162 739412 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1558958244 325403 :MDead!~MDude@74.5.156.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558958376 569296 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1558958379 370529 :MDead!~MDude@74.5.156.180 NICK :MDude < 1558958980 277863 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1558959047 486854 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Salpynx 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Truth-machine.svg.png10]]" > 1558960088 246402 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sticks and Stones14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62765&oldid=62749 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1341) 10Add example Truth-machine using provisional notation < 1558960248 466049 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1558960308 273869 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1558961351 47200 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62766 5* 03A 5* (+143) 10Created page with "[[Steps]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Non-textual]]" > 1558961555 282989 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62767&oldid=62766 5* 03A 5* (+455) 10 > 1558961861 332161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62768&oldid=62767 5* 03A 5* (+450) 10 > 1558961875 436701 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62769&oldid=62768 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Commands demonstrations */ > 1558961994 525152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62770&oldid=62769 5* 03A 5* (+229) 10/* Commands demonstrations */ : Go on and fix another section of the page. > 1558962268 311966 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Steps14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62771&oldid=62770 5* 03A 5* (+212) 10 > 1558963024 912310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62772&oldid=62763 5* 03A 5* (+7172) 10 > 1558963068 448579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62773&oldid=62772 5* 03A 5* (-7172) 10Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}" > 1558963296 765409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62774&oldid=62773 5* 03A 5* (+6953) 10 < 1558963536 116761 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558963908 206693 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's hoping https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:A&oldid=62772 is enough for a troll-ban. Mocking my recent non-textual lang with the troll-page Steps probably isn't enough by itself, but fingers crossed, I'm looking fwd to a quieter wiki tomorrow! < 1558963962 585011 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558964193 317977 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even ... latest talk page has the removal request discussion. < 1558964627 21789 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fumes silently.... breath deeply and don't feed the troll < 1558964732 791163 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 QUIT :Quit: ... < 1558964742 682285 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: Sticks and Stones looks pretty neat < 1558964827 98004 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: thanks! I've been trying to think of something physical as computation for some time, and this just occurred to me today. < 1558964893 760316 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a really cool idea! I'm at work right now so I can't look at it too closely but I'm going to go into more detail when I'm free < 1558964929 726954 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep wavering as to whether I think it is TC as is or not, I'll need play with it a bit and get a feel for what it can do. < 1558965121 461815 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I look forward to hearing your thoughts! < 1558965127 406906 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1558965289 927808 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to get to some sleep, and I'll leave on a good note, thanks :) < 1558965310 440995 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT : > 1558965607 386637 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5* 10moved [[02User:A10]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa > 1558965607 428434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5* 10moved [[02User talk:A10]] to [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa < 1558965620 959476 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1558965626 70670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62779&oldid=62776 5* 03A 5* (-274) 10Blanked the page < 1558965921 539190 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1558966080 138123 :singingbanana!5219e70d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.25.231.13 JOIN :#esoteric > 1558966346 235180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62780&oldid=62778 5* 03A 5* (-279) 10Blanked the page < 1558966402 414447 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1558966700 152429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sticks and Stones14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62781&oldid=62765 5* 03A 5* (+8) 10/* IO */ : Interesting. Though "No I/O" does not apply to "many" Turing tarpits; I think it applies to most of them. > 1558966846 939017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62782&oldid=62780 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+223) 10meh > 1558966951 101213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62783&oldid=62782 5* 03A 5* (-223) 10Blanked the page > 1558966963 766132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62784&oldid=62779 5* 03A 5* (+141) 10 < 1558967044 335732 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, *this* is either some psychiatric phenomenon or a clear sign of toxicity < 1558967063 390644 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah A dump this one on your dumb too :P < 1558967089 410956 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! I deleted the wrong word! it’s a dramaa < 1558967110 286365 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a foolish time investment > 1558967135 63174 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62785&oldid=62519 5* 03A 5* (+24) 10Add Sticks and Stones (Note that I made Steps independently of Sticks and Stones.) < 1558967136 57055 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't feed the animals or knock on the glass. < 1558967289 229773 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1558967353 149964 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523? < 1558967418 509379 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this situation with A is a total shame :( < 1558967419 128407 :singingbanana!5219e70d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.25.231.13 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1558967688 186696 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it should be one of the wiki admins who can properly delete pages and/or revisions. Everything else is pointless. < 1558967714 78990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ban users < 1558967747 706604 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, maybe at this stage usual revertion mechanism is useless < 1558967771 821311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a pity. I feel like there's half a sensible person in A, but it's being dominated by a troll. < 1558967778 801075 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558967785 115871 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1558967833 300525 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I really really hope they're 13 and will grow out of this. < 1558967875 754589 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even considered to add a thing about definition of `mod` in the discussion of some lang yesterday, where they were testing (or ❝testing❞) how to write it in terms of arithmetic ops and floored division < 1558967880 874179 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: totally < 1558967954 389415 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that’s why I tried to ask a honest question earlier. But here we are, in the land of denial) < 1558967979 160163 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on their page, I mean) > 1558968143 880032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62786&oldid=62757 5* 03Helen 5* (+325) 10/* [Disproven] Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Yes you can edit it [[User:Salpynx|@Salpynx]]. Have fun! < 1558968143 930820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I saw that actually, and I thought that it's hard to ask such a question in a way that cannot be construed as offensive :) < 1558968225 169158 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: agree. Some topics are really tricky when talking to a stranger > 1558968801 287326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62787&oldid=62756 5* 03Helen 5* (+0) 10Case fix: Accumulator-based -> accumulator-based (Sorry it was really bothering me) < 1558969001 889741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical developer machine: svn: command not found < 1558969038 104066 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true on any machine I have access to that I know of < 1558969101 343497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well it's easy enough to install :) < 1558969133 751045 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have had this computer for 19 months now and never needed subversion. < 1558969176 590059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( what a weird SCM. They call 'clone' 'checkout' ;-) ) < 1558969321 555234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ < 1558969386 407819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's the \if (foo) \ {\ code;\ } style where braces get their own indentation level) < 1558969444 542077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always thought that it's incredibly ugly. < 1558969900 938440 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558969906 487930 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow > 1558969915 237922 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62788&oldid=62786 5* 03Helen 5* (+148) 10. < 1558969961 211634 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ => nice question! I was wondering when read about it too < 1558969995 181532 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it known how it appeared? < 1558970054 138851 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seen on Gil Kalai's blog: Hedetniemi's conjecture about the chromatic number of direct product of graphs is disproved: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/sansation-in-the-morning-news-yaroslav-shitov-counterexamples-to-hedetniemis-conjecture/ < 1558970098 334570 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :result is from this month < 1558970157 562575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :before reading: . o O ( Is this another tera-byte sized SAT-based proof? ) < 1558970198 970149 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no. short proof by Yaroslav Shitov. < 1558970279 236380 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I'll have to read it < 1558970299 752068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I see. There's a reason why I wrote "before reading" there. This is the kind of thing that sometimes happens these days but I'm not unhappy to be wrong :) < 1558970351 133054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW is there a nontrivial esolang on musical themes? Maybe something about classical harmony (which I don’t understand but it seems a definite enough system to base things on) < 1558970360 167313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and chromatic numbers are the right flavor of combinatorial property for SAT solving to be applicable in principle, of course) < 1558970546 911349 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone briefly explain a chromatic number to a distracted Taneb? < 1558970621 182710 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do you want the elementary version or the category theory version? < 1558970637 779486 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: whichever < 1558970648 844430 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both in succession, maybe? < 1558970652 703355 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's worth to understand both. < 1558970661 950012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elementary = graph theoretic? < 1558970690 397517 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I’m in for category theory version too < 1558970705 678112 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we consider simple graphs, which are objects made of a finite set of vertices and a finite set of edges, where each edge must be a set of two vertices. < 1558970737 765712 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We say that two vertices are neighbors in a graph if one of the edges of the graph is the set of those two vertices. < 1558970760 513561 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes vertices are drawn as funny pictures with the vertices as dots, and the edges as lines connecting the two dots containing them. < 1558970768 854475 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/times vertices/sometimes graphs/ < 1558970853 310479 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now a coloring (or sometimes proper coloring) of a graph is a function from the vertices to a set (set of colors) such that for each edge, the two vertices in that edge (called the endpoints of that edge) are mapped to different values (colors) by this function. < 1558970906 471029 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chromatic number of a graph is the minimal number such that there's a coloring of that graph with that many colors, that is, a coloring whose range has that many elements. < 1558970959 422255 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is always 1 <= chromatic number <= |vertices| ? < 1558970966 686148 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any graph has a coloring with as many coloring as it has vertices, because the identity function works. But usually we're interested in colorings with smaller set of colors. < 1558970977 487462 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...unless there's zero vertices I guess < 1558970985 351720 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, the chromatic number of a graph with no vertices is 0 < 1558971032 965553 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finding the chromatic number is considered an interesting problem, and there are tons of more fancy theorems about it, such as the famous or infamous four color theorem which says that the chromatic number of a planar graph is at most 4, < 1558971035 546306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zero, hm) < 1558971079 813822 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a quick algorithm to tell if a graph can be colored by 1 or 2 colors, but it's NP-complete to tell whether it can be colored by 3 colors (or any other number larger than 2), < 1558971119 378536 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A graph can be 1-coloured if and only if there's no edges? < 1558971175 277666 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes < 1558971184 190275 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are a lot of theorems and conjectures about this stuff < 1558971201 266325 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one of them is Hedetniemi's conjecture, recently disproved < 1558971205 858075 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess for two colours you can just... give it a go, because once you've assigned a vertex a colour your hand is forced < 1558971232 391852 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that one, you have to know what the categorical product (or tensor product or direct product) of two graphs is, which is another graph. < 1558971244 74135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah bipartite graphs :) < 1558971277 780402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: how do you tell "chromatic number" and "chormatic index" apart? < 1558971290 329549 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they're totally different things < 1558971304 702030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know but how do you remember which one is which? < 1558971323 513733 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dunno, I'm a mathematician and researched graph theory, I just know < 1558971434 313964 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a mnemonic < 1558971505 249122 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a graph with vertex set V_0 and edge set E_0, and a secnd graph with vertex set V_1 and edge set E_1, then their categorical product is defined as a graph whose vertex set is the cartesian product V_0 × V_1, and the edge set is the set of {(u_0,u_1),(v_0,v_1)} such that {u_0,v_0} in E_0 and {u_1,v_1} in E_1. < 1558971584 80312 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now an interesting thing about the categorical product is that if you have a coloring p of the first graph, then it's trivial to find a coloring p' of the product graph with the same set of colors: just make p'((v_0,v_1)) := p(v_0) < 1558971615 93454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that the chromatic number of a categorical product graph is at most the min of the chromatic number of its two factors. < 1558971653 382707 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Hedetniemi conjecture stated that there's always an equality here, you can't find a better coloring for a categorical product graph than you get from this. < 1558971664 345240 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this conjecture is now apparently disproved. < 1558971679 61220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also sorry about that zero remark, it’s perfectly consistent with the definition, I had a misplaced association with degree of a polynomial that time) < 1558971727 946802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A graph is called complete if all possible edges are in it, that is, if {u,v} is in the edge set of every two different vertices u and v. < 1558971762 507942 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chromatic number of a complete graph is equal to its number of vertices, because you must color any two vertexes a different color, so any coloring needs at least as many colors as vertices. < 1558971775 928151 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1558972020 629455 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: makes sense so far? If so, I'll tell the category theoretical view. < 1558972041 395355 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I understand so far < 1558972139 285001 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1558972139 360875 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1558972139 360917 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1558972183 520936 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if we have two graphs (V_0,E_0) and (V_1,E_1), then we say that a function p is a homomorphism from the first graph to the second if it's a function from V_0 to V_1 and for every {u,v} in E_0, {p(u),p(v)} is in E_1. < 1558972250 484263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can use this to define what we call the category of graphs, in which the objects are each graph, and the morphisms are a graph homomorphism considered together with the two graphs it goes between. < 1558972353 478189 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An injective graph homomorphism is called a graph isomorphism, which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms. < 1558972360 606016 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that's wrong < 1558972382 810070 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An injective graph homomorphism whose inverse function is also a graph homomorpism is called a graph isomorpism, < 1558972386 357707 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms. < 1558972396 737443 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not too important here. < 1558972431 80278 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that work out to be an isomorphism in the usual category theory sense? < 1558972434 946330 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is important is that a graph coloring with a set of colors is exactly a homomorpism from the graph to the complete graph on the set of colors (that is, the set of colors is the set of vertices of the graph). < 1558972464 525917 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm not sure, I don't really know category theory, so I don't know what counts as an isomorpihsm in the usual category theory sense... let me look that up. < 1558972502 260935 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, it does < 1558972532 571088 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1558972561 52802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the categorical product of graphs is called that because it turns out that it's exactly the product in the category theory sense in the category of graphs. < 1558972630 728519 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that for any two graphs G_0 and G_1, there's a homomorphism f: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_0, and a homomorphism g: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_1, plus one other property < 1558972694 886718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a coloring p: G_0 -> K_n where K_n is a complete graph on n colors, then you can compose the above morphism f with p, and you get a coloring of the product graph with n colors. < 1558972738 663223 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we get the weak Hetedniemi statement for free < 1558972752 987653 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that part is trivial either way. < 1558972771 582550 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes < 1558972786 78572 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I see it clearer in the category theory notation because I've got more practice with that, I gues) < 1558972810 990572 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, this is #esoteric, which is why I thought it was worth to know the category theoretic view. < 1558972831 311491 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got Categories for the Working Mathematician sat on my desk ;P < 1558972848 989163 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1558972859 218066 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now there are other graph coloring questions in the broader sense that ask when there is a homomorphism from one graph to another. < 1558972915 374185 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For this, only the homomorphism type of a graph matters, where the homomorphism type of a graph G is the set of graphs H such that there's both a G -> H homomorphism and a H -> G homomorpism. < 1558972949 166446 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The homomorphism types form a sort of equivalence classes broader than the isomorphism types. < 1558972973 788010 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are graphs that have homomorphisms to each other but aren't isomorphic, because one of them has more vertices than the other. < 1558972988 869869 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you give an example? < 1558973010 451076 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, like the graph of a single vertex and the graph of two disconnected vertices? < 1558973011 406958 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest example is an empty graph on one vertices and an empty graph on two vertices. < 1558973045 514472 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more interesting example is a graph with two vertices and an edge between them, and a graph with four vertices and four edges going around them in a cycle (a cycle graph on four vertices). < 1558973058 154603 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the vertices are sometimes called "nodes" too. < 1558973092 276546 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's worth to know (and not too hard to prove) that any isomorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism, we can consider that graph the representative of that homomorphism class. < 1558973122 881787 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the above cases, the graph with two vertices and no edge, and the graph with two vertices and one edge are such smallest representatives. < 1558973131 803661 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean any homomorphism class? < 1558973142 389371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, darn it < 1558973150 135683 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any homorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism < 1558973195 184213 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also worth to know that there are three special homomorphism classes in some sense: that of the graph with no vertices, that of the graphs with no edges, and that of 2-colorable graphs (including the one with only one edge). < 1558973218 621916 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These three homomorphism classes sit on the bottom of the partially ordered set of homomorphism classes, < 1558973254 191913 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense that if a graph has a homomorphism from it to one of these classes, then that graph definitely falls into one of those homomorphism classes. < 1558973267 737436 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these are the only simple ones, because there's no one next bigger class. < 1558973283 839886 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Above that the partial ordered set of homomorphism classes gets sort of dense. < 1558973328 741121 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, you can take odd cycle graphs, which are graphs on an odd number of vertexes, with as many edges as they have vertexes, the edges connecting them cyclically. < 1558973366 271554 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 3-cycle but not backwards, a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 7-cycle but not backwards, one from the 7-cycle to the 9-cycle but not backwards, etc. < 1558973398 616270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a homomorphism from any of those cycles to the homomorphism class of 2-colorable graphs, which by the way includes any cycle graph on an _even_ number of points. < 1558973464 106879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's a chain that goes 2-colorable < 3-cycle < 5-cycle < 7-cycle... < 1558973470 863728 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1558973474 271445 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1558973476 945940 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's backwards < 1558973480 231708 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right < 1558973511 880978 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no vertexes < empty (no edges) < 2-colorable < ... < 7-cycle < 5-cycle < 3-cycle = 3-complete < 4-complete < 5-complete < ... < 1558973523 933422 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are just a few classes, there are much more, and they're not completely ordered < 1558973571 88110 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you give an example of two incomparable homomorphism types? < 1558973658 522211 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good question, I'm not sure what a small example is, and it probably needs over a dozen vertices or something < 1558973672 237073 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what's the simplest example < 1558973691 796372 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to leave for an hour or two now, but I can answer later I think < 1558973704 909649 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reference book about this topic is Pavol Hell, Jaroslav Nesetril, ''Graphs and Homomorphisms'' < 1558973739 489548 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d53dd2c2e411e461.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1558973779 710778 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry about the example < 1558973813 460129 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: an interesting introduction btw < 1558973825 689886 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was an enjoyable explanation! Thank you wob_jonas < 1558973845 59861 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558974265 303360 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 JOIN :#esoteric < 1558974721 925428 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 > 1558975425 586458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62789&oldid=62788 5* 03Helen 5* (+7232) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Proof completed. Feel free to review! > 1558975482 439935 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62790&oldid=62789 5* 03Helen 5* (+16) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Fixed timestamp < 1558976856 541474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1558976861 405735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I thought about your question. < 1558976907 795724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simplest examples for two grpahs with no homomorphism among them in either direction is the K_3 complete graph on three vertices (3-cycle, triangle) with the M_4 Micielsky graph, which has 11 vertices and 20 edges. < 1558976998 670897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The vertex set of the latter is {0,1,2,3,4,0',1',2',3',4',I} and the edge set is {{0,1},{0,1'},{0',1}, {1,2},{1,2'},{1',2}, {2,3},{2,3'},{2',3}, {3,4},{3,4'},{3',4}, {4,0},{4,0'},{4',0}, {0',I},{1',I},{2',I},{3',I},{4',I}}. < 1558977029 607076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest example is probably K_3 with the KG_{2/5} Kneser graph, the latter has 10 vertices and 15 edges, but it's likely harder to understand why that works. < 1558977040 400691 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d53dd2c2e411e461.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558977268 773840 :adu!~ajr@74-92-146-235-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1558977600 981270 :adu!~ajr@74-92-146-235-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1558978390 625658 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric > 1558979989 940482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62791&oldid=62787 5* 03Int-e 5* (+291) 10/* ROT13 */ > 1558980105 385121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62792&oldid=62791 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* ROT13 */ fix link < 1558980331 246601 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558980349 392404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No big deal, but I managed to save rather than preview there... hmpf.) < 1558980692 104945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Micielsky graph/Mycielsky graph/ < 1558980719 42095 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.redbubble.com/de/people/arunsundibob/works/12126978-stress-reduction-kit?p=kids-clothes i don't think this is an apropriate potive for clothing < 1558980790 201395 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0088ee4941c6a774d7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric > 1558981630 987083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62793&oldid=62792 5* 03Helen 5* (+2118) 10Added the [[bitch#Unclear|Unclear]] section to help with clarifying the article; Fixed general formatting and grammar. > 1558981695 467341 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62794&oldid=62793 5* 03Int-e 5* (-4) 10/* ROT13 */ golfing > 1558982583 571995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62795&oldid=62794 5* 03Int-e 5* (-29) 10/* More Bitwise Operations */ fix typo; clarify > 1558982652 78789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62796&oldid=62795 5* 03Int-e 5* (-136) 10/* Unclear */ that was a typo. I'll leave the section for now in case something else turns up < 1558983553 710988 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1558983798 656613 :pushpoppeekbop!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1558983822 965320 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1558983908 385056 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1558983940 539764 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric > 1558984218 20311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62797&oldid=62796 5* 03Int-e 5* (-9) 10/* Finishing touches */ 
 disables the '' markup.
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< 1558988751 408788 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: thank you for graph example from me too
< 1558989134 478943 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: am I intuit right that homomorphisms (and h. classes) of directed graph are way more disciplined?
< 1558989160 862315 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/graph/graphs
< 1558989206 278681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there at least would be no morphisms from a cycle to nonisomorphic cycle, except corner cases
< 1558989308 208912 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C_(2n+1) → C_(2n−1) for undirected graphs slightly surprised me even after I sat and thought how it worked
< 1558990037 160395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I don't know what "more disciplined" means, but you can get graphs and graph homomorphisms as a special case of digraphs and digraph homomorphisms, because if you only consider symmetric digraphs (ones that have the reverse of every arc as an arc) then they behave like a grpah, and any graph can be represented as such a digraph
< 1558990615 107955 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey
< 1558990655 921384 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1558990727 701539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah I forgot about symmetric digraph
< 1558990789 348813 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: hello
< 1558990872 175017 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about permutive programming languages?
< 1558990885 884831 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language where shuffling the source code effects no change
< 1558990911 415238 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dont just put the line number before each line
< 1558990934 190365 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558990981 621259 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood
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< 1558992218 109665 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: BTW I thought about a language where you specify a figure (something amorphous, not like in Piet or fungeoids) and its geometry, or topology, should somewhat give a program. Hadn’t came up with anything concrete, though :(
< 1558992348 752245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though TC cellular automata may be considered as a realization of this idea. Maybe one should require that the source figure be connected
< 1558992422 707983 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm yes, I think it definitely should be connected. But it can have holes if it’s more than 2D)
< 1558992451 610036 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1558992518 115680 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558992609 401428 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it’s more than 2D => hm, why, it can have holes in this case too
< 1558992674 122849 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: re. shuffling source, string and graph rewriting langs like Thue and Eodermdrome have rules that don't have to be listed in order.
< 1558992763 112186 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was trying to write an Eodermdrome program to generate random numbers, but all the existing interpreters chose the first listed rule when there are multiple choices. My solution was to run my code through linux's shuf to mix up the non-deterministic parts
< 1558992798 811848 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have a 2D figure, its boundary is a curve, and I did see an esolang there that interprets turns of a curve, though IIRC, not a closed one, but it shouldn’t be an issue, though then it would be simply a reformulation of that esolang’s idea
< 1558992819 919330 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0088ee4941c6a774d7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1558992975 823471 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but Thue has two sections which must be kept in order. Re-writing rules in general give you a way to shuffle without needing line numbers
< 1558993395 681004 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm, about specifically a shuffle-proof *esoteric* language, one can encode the normal code string using counts of different characters or words. E. g. from a final code, take list of all (space-delimited) words in it, sort them lexicographically, and take occurence count of each one to be the code of a character (in some encoding), resulting in a code in a certain other language. But this idea looks sort of too plain-remixy
< 1558993443 365974 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/resulting in a code/resulting in a source
< 1558994230 922288 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1558994303 64123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: re programs where you're allowed to shuffle the source code, recent discussion about that at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-01.html#lrb
< 1558995697 940132 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I've talked about that Eodermdrome idea here before. I should just finish writing it
< 1558995975 935408 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm one could try to make a language where each line describes a “molecule” (and in notation maybe akin to SMILES) and these molecules can “react”, resulting in new ones, according to set rules. I see indeterministic (in general) reactions between pairs of these molecules, some having side effects. Again this idea is too vague in this form
< 1558996201 911805 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for this idea there would be no point to stick to usual matter conservation, so the number of “atoms” of specific sort could well change in a reaction, and it would be great if the only state of the program is the pool of those molecular graphs, but it could be unsuitable
< 1558996335 925067 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like this was quite possibly already described
> 1558997653 914105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62798&oldid=62790 5* 03Helen 5* (+16) 10/* Random access cell-based memory */ Changed name to be more descriptive and less wrong
> 1558997862 451767 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62799&oldid=62798 5* 03Helen 5* (+28) 10Fixed other incorrect, relevant mentions of tape
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< 1558999486 826056 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos
> 1558999504 276364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sticks and Stones14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62800&oldid=62781 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+629) 10/* Examples */ Hello World, and basic interpreter to see it work, in case you don't live near a suitable wood and prefer computation to be done for you by computers
< 1559000303 76776 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orin: is it in ProtoIE?