←2019-06-25 2019-06-26 2019-06-27→ ↑2019 ↑all
00:00:05 <fizzie> They're having a onesie Wednesday at work (it's like casual Friday except you can guess the difference), but I don't have one.
00:02:08 <shachaf> how many do you have
00:03:03 <fizzie> I have as many as none.
00:03:15 <fizzie> I guess there's a one in none.
00:03:37 <shachaf> zerosie zaturday
00:04:21 <arseniiv> <shachaf> are cats esoteric? => maybe. My cat regularly can’t remember there is food and I need to walk her to it for her to see and eat it. I can’t model what’s in her head, as she doesn’t seem to be absent-minded
00:05:39 <shachaf> do you really have a cat
00:05:43 <shachaf> how come i've never seen it
00:06:24 <arseniiv> or she could decide to be offended by me and walk away and a minute later she returns and purrs
00:06:32 <arseniiv> shachaf: I do, I swear :P
00:07:18 <arseniiv> she’s sleeping now, a perfect reminder to me to go too
00:07:30 <arseniiv> bye bye
00:07:36 <shachaf> to go photograph her, you mean
00:07:48 <shachaf> and post the photographs in this channel
00:07:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63703&oldid=63693 * A * (-661) /* A simple concentrative language in 26 lines of C code */ It's wrong to swear and shout.
00:08:27 <arseniiv> maybe tomorrow I’ll post that zipper-tree language on the wiki, with a photograph?.. or without? Nobody knows!
00:08:50 <arseniiv> I mean, today in the late afternoon
00:08:54 <shachaf> @time arseniiv
00:08:54 <lambdabot> Local time for arseniiv is ср июн. 26 05:08:51 2019
00:09:13 <arseniiv> hopefully I’ll be well-slept
00:09:29 <arseniiv> yes it seems correct
00:10:05 <arseniiv> though why is it local upto weekday and month spellings?
00:10:25 <arseniiv> I mean, so overlocal
00:10:49 <shachaf> it's your own irc client sending that text
00:11:36 <arseniiv> hm it should do it more neutrally
00:22:04 <arseniiv> hm, an IRC pager?! wow
00:22:16 <arseniiv> okay ultimate bye this time
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00:53:55 <fizzie> @time fungot
00:53:56 <fungot> fizzie: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear con
00:54:48 <fizzie> Aw, I thought I had got that right. :/
00:55:03 <shachaf> fungot's speech seems to be denoted by a single, linear concept.
00:55:03 <fungot> shachaf: this is a really hot look for a stronger!
01:00:22 <fizzie> Even looking at them sources, I'm not sure what went wrong there.
01:05:10 <fizzie> Ohhh, maybe lambdabot's just ignoring their fellow robotic pal.
01:05:37 <oerjan> shocking
01:05:50 <oerjan> ^echo @echo
01:05:50 <fungot> @echo @echo
01:06:13 <shachaf> fungot is also not responding to my ctcp time
01:06:13 <fungot> shachaf: this is it, like an apple or, just maybe, this is just what your porkhollow's fat ass needs.
01:06:30 <shachaf> fungot: take that back
01:06:30 <fungot> shachaf: john. recycle the grist in the room. he briefly speaks to its strife! quota for the day. she simply returns to the land of thought and focus on the matter
01:06:43 <shachaf> ^style agora
01:06:43 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
01:07:07 <shachaf> Oh, no, it did respond.
01:07:24 <fizzie> Yeah, I wasn't paying attention.
01:07:31 <fizzie> (It's kind of a human-assisted mechanism.)
01:08:27 <shachaf> fungot: you're the bot now, dog
01:08:27 <fungot> shachaf: iv) the frequency of a
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01:08:41 <shachaf> 18:07 [ctcp(fungot)] HUG
01:08:41 <shachaf> 18:08 CTCP CUDDLE reply from fungot:
01:08:44 <shachaf> kmc: ☝
01:09:07 <shachaf> we've discovered the best bot
01:09:10 <fizzie> I think that may have been a protocol violation.
01:09:29 <shachaf> uh oh
01:09:38 <shachaf> cuddle protocols have been violated
01:09:41 <shachaf> that does not compute
01:09:43 <shachaf> exterminate
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01:10:52 <fizzie> For the agora fungot style, I think there may have been a few too many insufficiently unwrapped newlines.
01:10:52 <fungot> fizzie: whatever the outcome of the contest fund shall be created in the rules
01:11:06 <fizzie> It tends to end sentences pretty abruptly.
01:11:18 <kmc> aww
01:11:24 <kmc> <3 bot <3
01:11:55 <shachaf> i need a cuddle bot
01:11:59 <shachaf> preferably the kind with fur + meow
01:12:19 <shachaf> + purr + cute
01:13:41 <fizzie> There's a new pair of those on the [insert your locale's designation of the floor that's one above street level] floor flat right above the entrance to this building, every now and then I see them observing intently what goes on.
01:14:44 <shachaf> kmc: https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/comments/byltf3/my_nephew_had_the_best_interruption_while_trying/
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01:43:16 <Sgeo_> Is LuaRocks more like Python's packaging... globalness, or is it more like Cargo/npm with separate dependency installations per project?
01:43:33 <Sgeo_> I have no idea what packaging is like in the Pythonverse
01:51:29 <fizzie> They've got that venv thing going on over there in Pythonia, at least.
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02:10:00 <Sgeo_> Apparently LuaRocks is global by default, can be set to be local
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03:32:11 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63704 * A * (+427) Created page with "[[Garbage]] is a very simple [[esoteric programming language]] in order to fullfill the definitions of a programmming language. == Syntax == The language can only contain one..."
03:35:03 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63705&oldid=63704 * A * (-11) /* Syntax */
03:35:46 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63706&oldid=63705 * A * (+24) /* Syntax */
03:36:06 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63707&oldid=63706 * A * (-12)
03:37:47 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63708&oldid=63707 * A * (+13) /* Syntax */
04:07:36 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63709&oldid=63708 * A * (+200)
04:07:58 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63710&oldid=63709 * A * (-3) /* Implementation */
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08:36:10 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2815101/20190521/
08:36:12 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2815101/20190521/: b_jonas
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08:37:24 <esowiki> [[Andrei Machine 9000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63711&oldid=11675 * Salpynx * (+254) /* Examples */ 4-cube skeleton
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13:29:24 <wob_jonas> Say I have a 1990s scientific pocket calculator that works with floating-point numbers whose mantissa is a decimal number of 12 decimal digits. I want to find out if it does multiplication correctly, or instead it cheats by dropping some digits or doing rounding wrong, and thus reverse engineer the semantics of its multiplication. Does someone happ
13:29:24 <wob_jonas> en to have testcases that help in this?
13:34:05 <wob_jonas> Also, I just realized why, if in an interactive python3 interpreter, you enter a for-loop with a single statement right after the colon, it prompts you for more lines before executing it, despite that python syntax implies that the body suite can't continue if there's a statement after the colon in the same line
13:34:57 <wob_jonas> It's because for loops have an optional else: clause
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14:12:42 <fizzie> I think there was another language with "else" clauses for loops, except with different semantics.
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14:13:34 <fizzie> Python's are apparently "the loop terminated due to the condition being false" (instead of break).
14:13:47 <fizzie> The other language I think was "the loop was not entered at all".
14:14:04 <myname> i thought it also was the later for python
14:15:31 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, there's I think two different semantics. continue blocks in perl; else blocks in python; and some crazy suggestion for C++ (though I don't see how it would even not be syntactically ambiguous)
14:17:10 <myname> isn't c++'s syntax context sensitive to begin with
14:19:23 <wob_jonas> maybe I just dreamed the latter
14:19:54 <wob_jonas> myname: no, I mean it would patently break existing programs that have the form `if (a) for (;b;) c; else d;`
14:20:06 <wob_jonas> and that's so obvious that that probably wasn't the proposed syntax
14:20:21 <wob_jonas> either the syntax was different or I'm confusing this with an entirely different language or just dreamed it up
14:20:32 <myname> good old dangling else
14:30:46 <wob_jonas> myname: incidentally, the dangling else doesn't make the grammer not context-free
14:31:13 <myname> i know
14:34:13 <myname> constructors or something like that do, according to the c++ fqa
14:34:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: it doesn't even make the grammar inherently unambiguous.
14:35:15 <wob_jonas> https://cs.stackexchange.com/q/68828/
14:35:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah
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14:39:56 <kolontaev> Generating Malbolge code using simulated annealing https://yurichev.com/blog/malbolge/
14:44:49 <Taneb> kolontaev: very cool!
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14:57:04 <arseniiv> shachaf: my cat: https://imgur.com/a/PPqkpMU
15:03:52 <fizzie> Is its name "the"?
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15:09:23 <arseniiv> fizzie: no, “the” is the name of the picture, and cat’s name is one of fungot’s styles
15:09:23 <fungot> arseniiv: ( 2) without disrupting the existence of the
15:09:30 <arseniiv> ^style
15:09:30 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
15:09:46 <arseniiv> the second one
15:10:39 <arseniiv> though I should consider renaming her “the” as she prefers to not treat that name as something special
15:10:50 <arseniiv> s/that/the current
15:11:10 <arseniiv> so I call her different things from time to time
15:32:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63712&oldid=63702 * Areallycoolusername * (+1307)
15:33:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63713&oldid=63712 * Areallycoolusername * (-3)
15:33:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63714&oldid=63713 * Areallycoolusername * (+2)
15:36:11 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63715&oldid=63701 * Areallycoolusername * (+134)
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16:05:43 <myname> ugh, getting a contact email for google support is terrible
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16:10:36 <int-e> myname: please hold while we train our AI to deal with your problem
16:11:02 <myname> i'd rather not
16:12:08 <int-e> Sometimes I'm surprised to hear that apparently, Google still employs people.
16:17:14 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63716&oldid=63715 * Areallycoolusername * (+1570)
16:17:44 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63717&oldid=63716 * Areallycoolusername * (+4) /* Hello World Program */
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16:19:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63718&oldid=63714 * Areallycoolusername * (+135) /* Explanation */
16:28:21 <fizzie> I don't think there is really such a thing as "Google support", as in a specific group of people.
16:28:58 <fizzie> (All the groups of people are more specific to products than that.)
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17:12:06 <arseniiv> hm it seems I’ve just reinvented a call stack
17:15:10 <arseniiv> a stack where you have bars (I have taken them from 7 and maybe something else too) and can index elements from the highest bar upto top and push a copy of an element by index (what’s good it doesn’t mess the indexing)
17:15:29 <arseniiv> normal commands use the top elements as usual
17:16:21 <arseniiv> also one can clear all elements from the top down to the nearest bar, and remove that bar too, and we can assume the bottom has an infinite amount of bars
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17:17:10 <arseniiv> and then I muse: we could support procedures this way… and then it gets me
17:18:39 <arseniiv> though I’m worried that punctured trees and this barstack will feel crowded in one esolang together
17:18:58 <arseniiv> but this memory organization seems just too good
17:19:01 <arseniiv> to wait
17:19:24 <int-e> why should Befunge be alone in the feature-creeped esolang category...
17:22:23 <arseniiv> int-e: I didn’t think it is
17:23:43 <int-e> It really isn't.
17:24:04 <arseniiv> though I have a guiding star of Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download
17:24:26 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I meant to say I didn’t think it’s feature-creeped at all
17:24:31 <int-e> At the least there's mroman's Burlesque, and there are the Golfscript dialects.
17:24:39 <int-e> Oh.
17:26:11 * int-e tries to pinpoint the meaning of "it".
17:26:16 * int-e fails.
17:26:36 <arseniiv> I don’t remember its features in full, so it’s an internal something, not an external something
17:27:02 <int-e> https://github.com/Deewiant/Mycology is an indication of how rich Befunge is.
17:27:02 <arseniiv> my friend had eaten my ears with mentions of de re and de dicto, so I wonder if this is them
17:27:45 <arseniiv> int-e fails. => I meant, Befunge. Oh, I need more pronouns
17:29:28 <int-e> Also the very fact that there are language extensions ("fingerprints") is very feature-creepy.
17:31:34 <int-e> fungot: hi there!
17:31:34 <fungot> int-e: 0.50 if the deck and transferring it to take precedence over every other currency.
17:31:55 <int-e> fungot: are those '06 bitcoins?
17:31:56 <fungot> int-e: there is a member of that cfj. the ' actual value' of the three day period is in
17:32:01 <arseniiv> fungot prints
17:32:01 <fungot> arseniiv: announcement of a
17:32:14 <int-e> shachaf: ^^ beware
17:32:15 <arseniiv> I hope that a is case-sensitive
17:32:22 <arseniiv> yeah
17:33:10 <arseniiv> shachaf: have you seen my cat named the^W^W yet?
17:34:13 <arseniiv> also is Punctree a reasonable portmanteau of “punctured” and “tree”?
17:34:47 <arseniiv> (this is not for schachaf specifically)
17:35:00 <arseniiv> (I mean, only)
17:38:25 <kmc> woot, charging my laptop from USB-C for the first time
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18:20:41 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63719&oldid=63717 * Areallycoolusername * (+101)
18:23:02 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63720&oldid=63719 * Areallycoolusername * (+27)
18:23:26 <int-e> `grwp bar
18:23:28 <HackEso> abnf:Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes. \ arabic:.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA \ bardsworthlist:bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webco
18:23:42 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63721&oldid=63720 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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18:52:33 <kmc> I now have a USB-C power brick that can charge my laptop from a Powerpole connector!
18:52:36 <kmc> this is so exciting
18:52:45 <kmc> it's pretty compact too
18:54:01 <shachaf> arseniiv: that is a top-notch tdh
18:55:05 <arseniiv> ^^
18:55:31 <arseniiv> (cat-ears, not arrows)
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19:04:56 <shachaf> arseniiv: Uh, a top-notch cat
19:06:10 <arseniiv> ah
19:06:36 <arseniiv> shachaf: I thought tdh is something like hth, a modifier of sorts
19:06:47 <shachaf> It was.
19:06:52 <shachaf> `? tdh
19:06:53 <HackEso> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
19:07:01 <arseniiv> so I’ve already presumed it’s about the cat
19:07:03 <arseniiv> aaah
19:09:03 <shachaf> i have a state-of-the-art cat classification system and it has classified alice as top-notch
19:12:17 <arseniiv> :D
19:12:29 <arseniiv> it is heart-warming
19:12:49 <arseniiv> I’ll tell it to her
19:12:52 <int-e> `? cat
19:12:53 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:13:03 <int-e> oh right
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20:57:24 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63722 * Arseniiv * (+8686) the revelation cant be postponed any further
20:57:55 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63723&oldid=59252 * Arseniiv * (+15) technical
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21:02:15 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63724&oldid=63722 * Arseniiv * (+94) categorify
21:02:24 <arseniiv> tada?
21:05:23 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63725&oldid=63724 * Arseniiv * (+26) /* Syntax */ behavior fix
21:06:45 <arseniiv> I think it’s TC but it may surprisingly be not
21:13:32 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63726&oldid=63725 * Arseniiv * (+6) sorry, a couple of not-so-tolerable mistakes
21:13:48 <arseniiv> so far I’m finished
21:17:31 <int-e> arseniiv: a funny byte encoding would be to compose 2 _ 0 and 2 0 _ (with 2 0 0 for nil)
21:18:31 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, good idea!
21:18:41 <arseniiv> though we need to be able to parse it
21:19:14 <arseniiv> for the original one, I at least think it’s easy
21:19:40 <int-e> this idea brought to you by lisp: caaddr
21:20:12 <arseniiv> int-e: though nil would be _, there should be exactly one hole in a whole tree
21:20:15 <int-e> But yeah I bet it's more annoying to parse thant the more customary cons/nil list.
21:20:37 <int-e> oh right. I wanted to make a tree for some reason, rather than a context (aka tree')
21:21:02 <shachaf> arseniiv: your cat's ears are very good
21:21:06 <shachaf> and eyes
21:21:13 <arseniiv> int-e: your idea is tempting
21:21:52 <arseniiv> shachaf: hm I thought these are a pretty standard ones
21:22:01 <arseniiv> eyes
21:22:04 <int-e> arseniiv: oh is _° := 0 a typo?
21:22:21 <arseniiv> int-e: definitely, it should be idempotent here
21:23:28 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63727&oldid=63726 * Arseniiv * (+1) nastie typoes
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21:28:00 <arseniiv> int-e: destructing your things seems easy: π′(2 cont′ 0) = π′(2 0 cont′) = cont′, and we can see is this 2 cont′ 0 or 2 0 cont′ by using < (gives 2 cont′ 0 ≢ _ vs. _)
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21:28:33 <arseniiv> then we need to show they are easily constructed
21:29:38 <arseniiv> __+ gives 2 _ 0, then we can apply ~ to get 2 0 _, and we can compose all the way
21:30:04 <arseniiv> I’ll swap in your construction, then
21:31:20 <arseniiv> int-e: also what’s your wiki name if I to credit you
21:31:37 <int-e> it's totally unsurprising: int-e
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21:33:13 <shachaf> Did you ever say the meaning of that name?
21:36:46 <b_jonas> `? int-e
21:36:47 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
21:40:11 <arseniiv> int-e: so it’s not for example Int-E or something? Though thanks, this is much simpler to find out
21:41:40 <arseniiv> right, works both ways
21:47:24 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63728&oldid=63727 * Arseniiv * (+576) newerer
21:48:17 <arseniiv> I’m glad
21:49:55 <int-e> For building constants, you can add bits with _+ and ~_+~, no . required. I think.
21:52:10 <int-e> ("add" meaning "prepend")
21:53:13 <b_jonas> Or perhaps store unbounded sized natural numbers in the tree encoding that Amicus uses? :-)
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21:58:05 <arseniiv> int-e: better safe! I’m not entirely sure in +, I added it solely to construct something with 2 as a head
21:59:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is there a place for one _?
21:59:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no. they represent integers as a *tree*.
21:59:44 <b_jonas> trees don't have underscores.
22:00:03 <b_jonas> this way you can also represent lists of numbers as a tree
22:00:10 <b_jonas> since you just put the representations in a list
22:00:22 <arseniiv> ah, though, what am I saying, we can always treat a tree as (2 _ tree), valid here
22:00:51 <b_jonas> I assumed you use the underscore as a cursor that you move around in the tree or something
22:01:24 <b_jonas> that way you can modify items deep into the tree without having to rebuild a path from the root to it
22:02:28 <arseniiv> yeah
22:02:49 <b_jonas> but I don't know much about what your language does, so I'm not sure about this
22:02:50 <arseniiv> though this is yet theoretical in regard to operations I had picked
22:03:33 <arseniiv> it does something strange, maybe I should this time write an interpreter
22:03:59 <b_jonas> that may help
22:04:02 <b_jonas> write programs too
22:04:19 <b_jonas> and perhaps reusable library functions, if such things are possible in this language
22:06:28 <arseniiv> there is a big hack: quoting, and a while-else loop using quoted code chunks. One could write eval using that construct, so there is a way to use functions, though if there are more than 24 of them, it would be not so easy
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22:14:43 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, it works, though there is no need for the first ~ (only the root branches are mirrored, so there is no need to pre-mirror the argument), but these two operations append bits. Though I can easily change the details so they would prepend them. Don’t know if having a most or least signifigant digit near the head of the tree′ is more useful
22:15:57 <int-e> arseniiv: hmm, are we viewing the trees the same way? I'm viewing the root as the head of the list
22:16:35 <arseniiv> int-e: same
22:17:46 <b_jonas> what? no, the head is the left child (car), the tail is the right child (cdr)
22:18:20 <arseniiv> but look at my explicit procedure for converting a byte into a tree′, I think it should give results inverted to what you expected
22:19:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, this is how I started with the encoding, and it would be useful to encode arbitrary lists, but then int-e suggested a symmetric encoding for bit lists, so it’s about that one now
22:22:15 <int-e> arseniiv: I still think of it as prepending... you just have a little endian bit encoding. Your brain may operate differently :)
22:23:20 <arseniiv> mmaybe
22:23:37 <shachaf> why do people use big endian
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22:23:44 <shachaf> does it have any benefits twh
22:24:08 <int-e> shachaf: it's an arBITrary choice
22:24:58 <int-e> Big endian is familiar from how we write numbers. I think for left-to-right reading it does have cognitive advantages in that the most significant digits are encountered first.
22:25:03 <int-e> Computers just don't care.
22:25:38 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63729&oldid=63728 * Arseniiv * (+127) endianness issues: not treated
22:25:44 <shachaf> I mean for human use.
22:26:11 <int-e> it's time for https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt again.
22:29:14 <shachaf> IEN 731
22:30:04 <int-e> I'm not sure about before, but now you're just trolling
22:30:24 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I'm joking, not trolling.
22:30:45 <arseniiv> maybe when I will write the interpreter, there would be modes for both endiannesses, to check what code variant is easier on the eyes
22:31:00 <arseniiv> shachaf: yllufepoh
22:32:00 <arseniiv> at least in this one I will be able to write a truth machine example
22:32:24 <arseniiv> as I specially included equality testing as a primitive
22:32:47 <arseniiv> no more hypothetical speepless nights!
22:33:04 <shachaf> My question was serious: Are there any benefits to writing numbers with the most significant digit first, rather than last?
22:33:11 <shachaf> It seems to me that it'd be less awkward the other way.
22:33:38 <arseniiv> shachaf: maybe, but we also need to start speaking them this way too
22:33:53 <shachaf> When I add numbers in my head, I often do it from left to right, and backtrack when I run into a carry. I think this is a common algorithm.
22:35:04 <shachaf> Obviously in practice it's more important to be compatible with existing conventions. But are there any advantages to the standard way?
22:39:43 <arseniiv> I think, mostly compatibility with spoken numerals and what int-e mentioned that most significant digit is more significant so maybe if it goes first, there may be a time advantage. Though I doubt it is for numbers under ten or so digits, they should be read all at once
22:40:12 <shachaf> But without knowing the length of the number the most significant digit is kind of meaningless.
22:40:35 <arseniiv> as for some additional obscure reasons, I’ll join the question
22:40:42 <arseniiv> shachaf: yeah
22:42:41 <arseniiv> so this second arguments dangles on very rare cases when we can (and want!) estimate the length of a number written on many lines, or maybe even pages, so that we also can’t see it all at once
22:42:53 <arseniiv> s/arguments/argument
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23:21:58 <salpynx> arseniiv: following the new Punctree spec, trying to test my understanding: Is (2 _ _) simply equal to a leaf, 0? so that 2 (2 _ _) α := 2 0 α?
23:24:19 <arseniiv> salpynx: hm I’d say 2 _ _ is meaningless (and can’t be a result of operations on trees′ which are defined there)
23:24:44 <arseniiv> we can define 0 as 2 _ _ if it would be useful, though!
23:25:31 <arseniiv> I don’t know if it will, at least from an implementation standpoint
23:27:22 <salpynx> the defaults of / \ seem to imply there is a virtual (2 _ _) below every 0, I was trying to think is there is difference between a virtual (2 _ _) and an explicit one
23:30:05 <salpynx> actually what I was really trying to do was make holes in the tree trunks, but these seem like proper binary trees, so that's not possible :)
23:34:18 <arseniiv> salpynx: ah now I see. If it will all be consistent, maybe there is a sense to treat 0 as 2 _ _, though I think there will still be complications
23:35:24 <arseniiv> yeah, holes in place of 2s would be far away from zipper ideas I flowed on to this
23:38:54 <salpynx> I wasn't sure about (2 _ _), whether it was implied or intended by the spec. I was trying to infer something that was not explicitly stated to check I got the concept. I _think_ it's safe, but there may be issues depending how other parts interact
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