←2019-07-21 2019-07-22 2019-07-23→ ↑2019 ↑all
00:01:05 <zzo38> b_jonas: https://arin.ga/5eqtil
00:02:52 <b_jonas> thanks
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01:08:42 <esowiki> [[User:Jussef Swissen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64603&oldid=64463 * Jussef Swissen * (+56)
01:08:53 <esowiki> [[User:Jussef Swissen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64604&oldid=64603 * Jussef Swissen * (-1) /* = WIP Ideas */
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02:07:09 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64605 * Jussef Swissen * (+1193) Created page with "'''''' is a [[Stack]]-based, functional, and self-modifying esolang made by [[User:Jussef Swissen|Jussef Swissen]]. Its entire command set is in hebrew. == Specific..."
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03:38:23 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64606&oldid=64605 * Jussef Swissen * (+4391) Extended the page.
03:39:40 <esowiki> [[User:Jussef Swissen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64607&oldid=64604 * Jussef Swissen * (+18) /* Languages I've made */
03:46:02 <zzo38> Now I made a Robot Find Kitten game in Glulx, but, more text should be added for the stuff that is not a kitten.
03:54:45 <shachaf> Why would you have anything that isn't a kitten?
03:56:45 <zzo38> Because that is how it is work; that is how they made it
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04:11:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm playing this game now: https://www.puzzlescript.net/play.html?p=9eb8f8f3df4efb450b798a279eeba2e0
04:11:45 <shachaf> Do you like this?
04:12:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64608&oldid=64573 * Jussef Swissen * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
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04:24:47 <zzo38> It is not so bad, I suppose, but, maybe I should want to make with Free Hero Mesh maybe
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04:34:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64609&oldid=64608 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Non-alphabetic */ these are actually sorted, by Unicode code point, Hebrew Ayin to go between Cyrillic and Arabic
04:59:47 <shachaf> zzo38: How far did you get? I think the interesting aspects only show up after a few levels.
05:01:42 <zzo38> I did not get very far, although I haven't tried much either. Maybe another day I might try more though. (I did skip a few levels by moving the levels I wanted to skip to the end, but I like how is done in Hero Mesh, you can skip both backwar and forward as often as you want to, and can record a sequence of moves for each level, also saving and restoring the sequence of moves.)
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06:03:50 <zzo38> Here is my Robot Find Kitten program: https://arin.ga/gM1bQZ
06:04:21 <zzo38> (More lines of text could be added below "; Text for stuff other than a kitten", but so far I didn't.)
06:06:39 <zzo38> The instruction ":Robot !data 0xC0000000" seem strange (using !data where an instruction is expected), but it happens to be a overlong encoding of a "nop" instruction (normally encoded by the single byte 0x00).
06:08:26 <zzo38> But 0xC0 also indicates the beginning of a function receiving its arguments on the stack (although this function uses no arguments; also note Glulx is big-endian), and then the next two bytes indicate this function has no local variables, and then the first instruction is next, which is a single-byte nop.
06:09:20 <zzo38> Since none of the rest of the instructions in the Redraw function use any local variables, this allows Robot to be executed itself as a function and for the stuff before it to fall through into this function.
06:14:17 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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06:31:57 <\oren\> My font now supports klingon pIqaD
06:32:38 <\oren\> 
06:32:39 <\oren\> 
06:42:14 <\oren\> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/299702207270486016/602751995639627776/unknown.png
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07:21:35 <zzo38> This new issue of 2600 mentions how to use SSH and HTTP(S) through DNS.
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09:14:54 <arseniiv> shachaf: hi I’m back!
09:15:38 <shachaf> arsenhiiv
09:16:09 <arseniiv> yeah, I know index notation can be understood index-free, I even used it that way several times, though I’m not sure that is elaborated in that book
09:16:54 <arseniiv> I gave up splicing times of day in names when tried several times to do it and it seemed impossible :D
09:17:50 <shachaf> Times of day?
09:17:53 <shachaf> Oh.
09:18:16 <arseniiv> I thought about trace for a while when falling asleep, but no essential thing arose
09:18:58 <arseniiv> oh I meant, how do you put it… it’s not always a greeting either
09:19:33 <arseniiv> greetingwell?..
09:20:43 <arseniiv> though I have a very raw thought: maybe trace can be understood as a sort of applying the operator to itself vs. applying it to a covector and a vector (so that in both cases we get a scalar)
09:21:06 <arseniiv> I was trying to imagine it in vain and it didn’t happen
09:22:03 <arseniiv> what that link you’ve mentioned between trace and fixpoints in monoidal categories is?
09:23:07 <shachaf> Oh, most instances of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traced_monoidal_category have an obvious interpretation in terms of fixed points.
09:23:57 <arseniiv> I think it’s more productive to apply it exactly to this category if it’s possible. I think Vec is a somewhat degenerate case of a monoidal catefory, there we for instance don’t have an interesting modal logic thing (as far I understand)
09:24:37 <arseniiv> thanks, I’ll look at it!
09:25:56 <shachaf> What's a modal logic thing?
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09:26:54 <arseniiv> oh I meant not a modal logic, a linear one
09:27:46 <arseniiv> several months ago I tried to see what it means for Vec and it was all conflated there, & = ⊕ etc.
09:28:43 <arseniiv> then I saw why linear spaces aren’t mentioned as examples in texts on linear logic, though both deal with monoidal categories
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09:37:49 <shachaf> arseniiv: Oh, yes, ⊗ = ⅋ in Vec
09:37:59 <shachaf> Which leads to some confusil things.
09:40:10 <arseniiv> shachaf: wow, even ⊗ = ⅋? Didn’t thought that far
09:40:39 <arseniiv> then it’s a very uninteresting category to do linear logic in, indeed
09:41:56 <shachaf> Isn't it?
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10:11:53 <arseniiv> shachaf: they say a traced category should be cartesian monoidal for those fixpoint things to work, but Vec isn’t, as ⊗ ≠ × there
10:13:02 <arseniiv> (but maybe there is a way to make some weak connection)
10:13:27 <arseniiv> link: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/traced+monoidal+category#in_cartesian_monoidal_categories
10:14:25 <arseniiv> BTW random variable expectation is too a kind of a trace :) it could be interesting somewhere
10:28:40 <shachaf> arseniiv: Oh, that's interesting. I should look at that paper.
10:32:22 <shachaf> I think that statement is weaker than what you said.
10:32:54 <shachaf> It seems to be saying that if your category's monoidal product is the cartesian product, then so-and-so holds, but not to say anything in the case that it isn't?
10:33:16 <arseniiv> hm also somewhat off-topically there is a sigfpe post about linear operators presented in a monadic fashion, I wonder if there were means to represent a trace (from what I remember, it’s doubtful, but if he implemented MonadFix, it could be)
10:33:21 <arseniiv> shachaf: yeah, right
10:33:30 <arseniiv> so there is a slight hope :)
10:34:31 <shachaf> My hope is more than slight. But I don't know how to figure it out exactly.
10:34:51 <shachaf> arseniiv: There's the special case of, uh, semimodules over a boolean semiring, which are called relations, I think.
10:35:05 <shachaf> It's easy to make sense of trace as talking about fixed points in that case.
10:35:39 <shachaf> If your tensor is separable, then the meaning of trace as "connecting the output to the input" is obvious, of course.
10:36:02 <shachaf> I mean, if A_i^j = B_i C^j, then of course A_i^i = B_i C^i
10:36:05 <arseniiv> shachaf: are those related to usual n-ary relations?
10:36:20 <arseniiv> (pun semi-intended)
10:36:33 <shachaf> Just regular binary relations. Or n-ary in the multilinear case, sure.
10:36:48 <arseniiv> ah, yes, I see
10:38:20 <shachaf> In fact there are two different tensor products that give you two reasonable traces.
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10:41:45 <arseniiv> hm I thought about linear algebra thing in relations (like how the matrix of their composition is a plain matrix multiplication, just, as you mentioned, over a semiring) but not yet about tensor multiplicating relations. For R ⊂ A1 × A2, Q ⊂ B1 × B2, will R1 ⊗ R2 ⊂ (A1 × B1) × (A2 × B2)?
10:42:09 <arseniiv> tensor multiplication of*
10:46:38 <arseniiv> oh there are more typos
10:46:50 <arseniiv> I’ll rephrase completely
10:48:46 <arseniiv> let R ⊂ A1 × A2, Q ⊂ B1 × B2; is one of these products R ⊗ Q defined as { ((a1, b1), (a2, b2)) | (a1, a2) ∈ R, (b1, b2) ∈ Q } and what is the second one?
10:49:09 <arseniiv> shachaf: now I could ping you :)
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10:50:16 <arseniiv> hm also I think I often misplace “can” and “could”
11:02:32 <shachaf> I'm not sure.
11:02:34 <shachaf> @time
11:02:38 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Jul 22 04:02:35 2019
11:02:45 <shachaf> You could ask me after I wake up.
11:05:12 <shachaf> I think maybe I'd expect that a one-dimensional thing would be the identity for a tensor product?
11:15:12 <shachaf> Oh, maybe 3.2 in http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~hassei/papers/tlca97.pdf is relevant.
11:15:15 <shachaf> I'll have to find out tomorrow.
11:15:57 <arseniiv> shachaf: sweet dreams :D
11:31:00 <arseniiv> <shachaf> I think maybe I'd expect that a one-dimensional thing would be the identity for a tensor product? => I would expect the same, yeah
11:33:57 <arseniiv> oh I misplaced what things should be multiplicated. In Rel, objects are A1, A2 from my example, and for what a reason then I try to find out what R ⊗ Q is?.. I should look for A1 ⊗ B1, and in this case it’s obvious A1 × B1 will suffice as one of those tensor products
11:36:40 <arseniiv> I should just look in nLab, obviously
11:53:48 <arseniiv> ah, no, there is ⊗ for maps too. Linear algebra is bad for me
12:33:47 <esowiki> [[Seabass]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64610 * Sec-iiiso * (+1480) Created page with "'''Seabass''' is a programming language that was inspired by [[Deadfish]] and is backwards-compatible with it. The other key points of Seabass are: * functionality * (relative..."
12:44:08 <cpressey> Deadfish derivative is the new brainfuck derivative, it seems
12:50:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64611&oldid=64609 * Sec-iiiso * (+14) /* S */
13:00:12 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64612&oldid=63861 * Sec-iiiso * (+961) /* Implementations */
13:22:33 <shachaf> I should be asleep but I'm not.
13:22:38 <shachaf> Do you like "real induction"?
13:22:44 <shachaf> For some S ⊆ [a,b] ⊂ ℝ, if the following hold:
13:22:44 <shachaf> • ∀x ∈ [a,b]: if [a,x) ⊆ S, then [a,x] ⊆ S
13:22:44 <shachaf> • ∀x ∈ S\{b}: [x,y] ⊆ S for some y > x
13:22:44 <shachaf> Then S = [a,b].
13:44:44 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64613&oldid=64606 * Jussef Swissen * (+0)
13:49:02 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64614&oldid=64613 * Jussef Swissen * (+167)
14:19:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64615&oldid=64586 * A * (-829) I am not interested in extending H anymore, so I will delete this part.
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14:54:52 <arseniiv> shachaf: where it’s used?
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14:58:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64616&oldid=64615 * A * (+24) Now there are 4 esolangs that need no code to implement!
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15:22:36 <cpressey> There are three reasons I commonly see for violating an abstraction layer: ignorance, expedience, and arrogance. I can do something about the first two, but I'm not sure what I can do about the last one.
15:24:28 <Taneb> Invoke the wrath of Zeus?
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15:48:39 <cpressey> Good idea, sounds a little drastic though? Maybe I'll start small - I'll use more Greek letters in my explanations.
16:14:09 <esowiki> [[Jussef Swissen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64617&oldid=64424 * Jussef Swissen * (-221)
16:15:31 <esowiki> [[Swissen Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64618&oldid=64386 * Jussef Swissen * (+3) /* Language Implementation */
16:18:58 <cpressey> In other news, hierarchical state machines and algebraic data types seem to share the same structure: the set of states of a machine is like a sum type, and sub-machines embedded in a state is like a product type
16:19:44 <Taneb> Is there anything which corresponds to exponential types?
16:20:43 <cpressey> State transition? Kinda? Maybe not. I'll think about it
16:23:48 <zzo38> Did anyone have any comment of the card game rules I posted, so far? Now I am adding the rules for adjacency
16:24:02 <zzo38> After that, then I can add the rules for combat.
16:25:21 <zzo38> Do you worship the Greek gods?
16:26:20 <Taneb> Me? Not currently
16:26:30 <Taneb> I'm far too lazy
16:27:31 <zzo38> I meant if cpressey does, but if you want to answer that is OK too
16:30:18 <cpressey> No, the Babylonian gods made me promise that I wouldn't.
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16:32:14 <zzo38> OK (especially if you are not in Greece)
16:41:35 <kmc> I guess it would be nice to give my heart to a God
16:41:35 <kmc> But which one, which one do I choose?
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17:09:07 <esowiki> [[User:Sideshowbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64619&oldid=64574 * Sideshowbob * (+187)
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17:59:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's hard to judge a card game even then, but this would make much more sense if you made example cards. make two beginner preconstructed decks that play against each other, with the equivalent of 30 M:tG cards in each deck (of which about 12 are basic lands)
18:01:15 <b_jonas> That way it would be at least possible to simulate games.
18:38:49 <b_jonas> [ 7+15
18:38:54 <b_jonas> hmm no
18:39:05 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint 7+15
18:39:06 <HackEso> 22
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18:50:39 <kmc> weirdest bug: when I tap the rear fingerprint reader on my phone, juicessh goes into Ctrl-lock mode
18:51:13 <b_jonas> what is juicessh?
18:52:10 <b_jonas> no wait, I can web search that
18:52:31 <b_jonas> an ssh client
18:52:33 <b_jonas> ok
18:53:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64620&oldid=64616 * Areallycoolusername * (+385) Collab Request
18:55:28 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah. I mostly use it for mosh, actually
18:55:41 <kmc> it might be the only Android app that supports it
18:56:10 <kmc> mosh is incredibly useful for mobile use
18:56:34 <kmc> it works well on shitty connections and it automatically reconnects within 3 second when you switch networks
18:57:13 <kmc> I used to worry that sending out the beacon frames had an impact on battery life
18:57:18 <kmc> but it doesn't seem to matter much
19:04:11 <b_jonas> bacon frames would have an impact on your cholesterol level, not the battery
19:06:01 <kmc> lol
19:06:19 <kmc> dietary cholesterol doesn't affect blood cholesterol very much
19:06:23 <b_jonas> sorry, "beacon" still doesn't look like a real word to me, even though I heared it several time
19:06:27 <kmc> but it affects obesity so yeah I guess
19:06:30 <kmc> :P
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19:43:10 <b_jonas> [ 7+15
19:43:11 <j-bot> b_jonas: 22
19:43:13 <b_jonas> same result, good
19:46:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: maybe you should just continue seeing beacons here and beacons there and someday beacon will shine its light on itself
19:48:28 <arseniiv> omg I had read a parody Objectivist page by Andrej Bauer. I didn’t even thing there are so many strange quasi-rationalistic movements
19:49:27 <arseniiv> a new discovery every day
19:50:24 <int-e> " Read out loud the Axioms of Subject and Object with proper emphasis. For extra credit, do it in front of a mirror."?
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19:51:03 <arseniiv> int-e: yes
19:55:01 <arseniiv> maybe I should start my own. “People can’t become rational, they either born that way or not. I can determine accurately who is which. Please come in and polarize.”
19:56:12 <arseniiv> stated sufficiently bluntly to guarantee a steady intake of followers
19:57:23 <int-e> . o O ( "the second part is concerned with Objectivist ethics" -- this part will be very short. )
20:01:38 <arseniiv> I skipped, is there a second part planned?
20:02:32 <arseniiv> I presume it’s also scheduled at +∞? :)
20:07:02 <int-e> I think I know too little about "objectivism" to find this funny. I did read the two novels though at some point...
20:17:33 <arseniiv> BTW had someone tinkered with Algodoo? It’s a 2D physics sandbox thing. I think it could be possible to make a simple computer in there, but I hadn’t thought on it yet at all. There is a rotational drive primitive, so one is not bounded by what energy one could store beforehand; and there is no temperature simulation, so friction of parts won’t cause any harm
20:21:04 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of that one yet
20:22:03 <arseniiv> also there are working gears out of the box, and parts can occupy different collision layers to make a design more compact. Though there are only 10 layers IIRC. For a computer, it may become limiting
20:28:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: how flexibly can you connect pairs of the 10 layers?
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20:29:16 <arseniiv> each part can occupy any combination of them (checkboxes in the UI)
20:29:21 <b_jonas> I see
20:31:00 <b_jonas> that sounds like you could in theory build a RAM and ROM and CPU and PPU from them, though the question is how efficient the simulation is and whether you can get it fast enough to do some demonstrations
20:31:52 <arseniiv> yeah, I haven’t tested the limits
20:32:10 <arseniiv> also I saw it on youtube used mainly for marble races :D
20:32:35 <b_jonas> you could try to look existing stuff online to see if someone's done something computational
20:32:42 <arseniiv> or not mainly, but pretty often
20:33:06 <arseniiv> hm yes, it’s a good step
20:49:53 <arseniiv> yet to find a presentable mechanical calculator, but this Hanoi tower solver is neat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDERoYv6Jt0
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21:03:13 <rain1> woh
21:03:15 <rain1> cool
21:10:29 <shachaf> `smlist 503
21:10:30 <HackEso> smlist 503: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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21:31:16 <arseniiv> after some search I think many people experimented with mechanic computation in that program, but almost none shared what they did (maybe they could think it was incomplete)
21:32:46 <arseniiv> I found a logic gate design (AND, OR, NOT, and XOR not shown by itself, but as a part of, I presume, a flip-flop)
21:37:10 <b_jonas> argh, why am I wearing these thin socks for the summer? they all look the same but actually have slight differences, so it's so hard to match the pairs after washing!
21:37:22 <b_jonas> I should just stick to my usual thicker socks for the summer too
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