β2019-08-01 2019-08-02 2019-08-03β β2019 βall
00:04:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64967&oldid=64966 * A * (+166) /* Concern */
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01:05:01 <tswett[m]> π€ . o O ( the inverse image of 0 under x -> x^2 has two elements, but both of them are 0. )
01:28:41 <esowiki> [[Forget]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64968&oldid=64954 * IAmAnIssu * (+389) Added new instructions + cat program
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01:44:53 <int-e> tswett[m]: If you're representing complex numbers by a pair of computable reals, I expect a positive answer, mainly because computable reals are specified in terms of infinite computations. If you have to pick a *rational* complex number (in finite time) then this becomes a potentially interesting problem...
01:46:05 <tswett[m]> Yeah, here's what I had in mind.
01:46:38 <tswett[m]> The "machine" consists of a particular rational function with rational complex coefficients.
01:46:55 <tswett[m]> The input is a rational complex number, and executing the machine consists of repeatedly applying the function to the input.
01:47:40 <int-e> Basically I'd be happier with saying Q*Q -> Q*Q rather than R*R -> R*R :)
01:48:13 <tswett[m]> There's a "halting basin" which consists of... let's say it has to consist of an open ball with a rational complex center and rational radius.
01:48:42 <tswett[m]> The machine halts if and only if the state enters the halting basin at some point.
01:49:06 <int-e> Uh, is the Mandelbrot set connected? I thought not...
01:49:13 <int-e> Ah
01:49:19 <int-e> But that doesn't matter. Sorry.
01:49:26 <tswett[m]> Is... is that an open problem?
01:49:33 <tswett[m]> It definitely seems like it's path-connected, but maybe that's not known.
01:49:48 <int-e> tswett[m]: I have never looked at this formally.
01:51:18 <int-e> I've just played with fractint ages ago and thought that it looked disconnected with mandelbrot islands everywhere. But that may well be misleading... rendering would miss narrow paths.
01:52:25 <int-e> But the map x -> x^2 + 1 is not injective, so there's at least a potential of producing islands.
01:52:26 <tswett[m]> Looks like it's been proved that the Mandelbrot set is connected.
01:52:44 <kmc> mm fractint
01:53:38 <int-e> "During the early 1990s the program was the definitive fractal generating program for personal computers."
01:55:16 <kmc> yep
01:55:27 <kmc> i remember playing with it at my grandpa's house as a kid
01:55:29 <kmc> it was fun
01:55:39 <kmc> DOS program
01:59:34 <int-e> Ah, I'm misremembering what exactly the Mandelbrot set is.
02:00:21 <kmc> well, don't listen to the johnathan coulton song
02:00:25 <kmc> because he defines it wrong :P
02:01:34 <kmc> I remember coding a mandelbrot set renderer in TI-83 BASIC
02:01:55 <kmc> it took about half an hour to render a 4 color greyscale image (shown by rapidly switching between stored monochrome images)
02:03:23 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere the display supports 4 level, although this cannot be done with the built-in system.
02:03:44 <kmc> well the cycling looks a lot better if you do it in assembly
02:03:57 <kmc> asm games for the TI-83 had greyscale and relatively high framerate graphics
02:04:19 <kmc> the basic command to recall a stored picture was slow enough that you couldn't really do flicker free greyscale
02:04:19 <zzo38> Yes, definitely it would be faster
02:04:29 <kmc> I only dipped my toe into TI-83 assembly though
02:04:31 * int-e is wasting CPU cycles on finding smooth numbers...
02:05:04 <kmc> I bet you could do C as well, using sdcc, but I'm not sure how many people have
02:05:13 <kmc> for TI-89 the TIGCC toolchain was pretty popular
02:05:18 <zzo38> I have TI-92, although only used the built-in system. It is slow, but at least it has a full keyboard and also a built-in programming environment.
02:05:19 <kmc> I never quite got it working though :?
02:05:27 <kmc> I bought a TI-92 at a hamfest recently
02:05:29 <kmc> for nostalgia reasons
02:05:33 <kmc> so I might do something with it one day
02:05:41 <kmc> TI-89/92 basic is much more powerful than TI-83 basic
02:06:35 <int-e> (challenge: Find a number larger than (10^50-1)/9 = 111...111 (50 ones) that is only divisible by the first 27 primes (2..103) and is as small as you can make it. (If you can find the minimum that would be impressive, but I can't.))
02:07:27 <zzo38> Yes, although it is still slow. There are things that can be done to improve the speed a bit, though, such as using the sort commands for shuffling (kind of like using "ORDER BY RANDOM()" in SQL)
02:07:34 <int-e> (This resulted from a question on ##math two days ago and I've already spent quite some effort on this.)
02:08:12 <kmc> zzo38: interesting
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02:14:22 <tswett[m]> So essentially, find the smallest linear combination of log(2), log(3), log(5), ..., log(103), with nonnegative integer coefficients, which is larger than log(111...111)?
02:15:36 <int-e> sure if you want to deal with irrational numbers :)
02:17:23 <tswett[m]> The problem has got to have a name.
02:17:41 <int-e> (double precision is not enough for this)
02:28:56 <int-e> (Tbf, as far as I can make up, double precision is just barely not enough. So playing around with that should be perfectly fine.)
02:32:27 <tswett[m]> Just use arbitrary-precision integers.
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02:56:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64969&oldid=64926 * JonoCode9374 * (+308) /* Contest controller */
02:59:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64970&oldid=64861 * JonoCode9374 * (+43) /* Implicit Input */ new section
03:24:07 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64971&oldid=64211 * JonoCode9374 * (+412) /* Special Bits */
03:25:41 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64972&oldid=64971 * JonoCode9374 * (+163) /* Implicit Input */
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04:37:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish Joust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64973&oldid=64969 * A * (+123)
04:45:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64974&oldid=64970 * A * (+245)
04:46:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64975&oldid=64974 * A * (+1233) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */
04:46:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64976&oldid=64975 * A * (+65) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */
04:47:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64977&oldid=64976 * A * (+5) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */
04:48:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64978&oldid=64977 * A * (+0) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ My brain is a lot worse in the day than in the night.
04:53:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64979&oldid=64978 * A * (+65) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */
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04:59:20 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64980&oldid=64972 * A * (+245) /* Special Bits */ This might be implemented. However, I will see how JonoCode9374 reacts.
05:00:23 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64981&oldid=64980 * A * (+1) /* No EOI's after inputs */
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05:57:00 <int-e> `complain
05:57:31 <HackEso> No output.
05:58:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64982&oldid=64979 * A * (+9) /* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */
06:19:06 <esowiki> [[What Mains Numbers?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64983&oldid=64866 * A * (+0) /* Implementations */ Cosmetics
07:32:28 <esowiki> [[ACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64984&oldid=64925 * Hanzlu * (+33)
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08:07:38 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64985&oldid=64981 * A * (-2) /* Cat program */ There is implicit input now.
08:08:46 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64986&oldid=64985 * A * (-4) /* Example Programs */ Find and add implicit imput if possible.
08:11:14 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64987&oldid=64986 * A * (-1) /* Truth-machine */ In my PR, Keg also takes one line of input if it tries to duplicate an empty stack. Now I can save 1 byte.
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08:42:42 <cpressey> Good morning. I think the following default assumptions hold: If I have an esolang and I don't say outright that its programs can be infinite, they can't be. If I do say outright that they can be infinite, but I don't say they need not be computable, they must be computable.
08:44:37 <cpressey> If I have time I'll try to make an esowiki page about infinite programs.
08:52:40 <cpressey> One of the more frustrating things about language design is, you start designing a language, and you get to a point where there are several options, and each option has interesting implications that you would like to explore, but they might go in a different direction than your original idea
08:54:24 <cpressey> Should you ignore them and try to get to your original goal, or should you go down them and end up with something you have no good idea how it will turn out?
09:24:48 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64988&oldid=64852 * YamTokTpaFa * (+50) /* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */
09:36:13 <esowiki> [[Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64989&oldid=57940 * A * (+81)
09:37:45 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64990&oldid=62309 * A * (+133)
09:42:48 <shachaf> Why should computability be a requirement?
09:43:26 <shachaf> I think a language interpreter can just get an oracle representing a program without caring how it works.
09:44:00 <cpressey> Assumption about what you allow, rather than a requirement. If you want your language to accept uncomputable reals in input you should say so, that's all.
09:46:05 <shachaf> i guess whether it seems unnatural depends on how you specify infinite programs.
09:47:34 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64991&oldid=64988 * YamTokTpaFa * (+236) /* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */
09:52:15 <cpressey> If a language accepts uncomputable infinite programs, it doesn't seem to make much sense to ask whether that language is Turing-complete. It can do the triviallest things yet still produce output that a TM never could.
09:56:16 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64992&oldid=64991 * YamTokTpaFa * (+608) /* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */
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10:18:12 <andrewd3> hello
10:19:13 <cpressey> Hi andrewd3
10:19:39 <andrewd3> were you that guy who implemented deadfish in deadfish cafe {:}
10:20:10 <cpressey> I sure did that thing
10:20:15 <andrewd3> ooooo
10:20:20 <andrewd3> special meeting
10:20:49 <andrewd3> what eso stuff have you done recently
10:22:11 <andrewd3> if any
10:22:26 <cpressey> Not terribly much. A string-rewriting language that looks and acts like a concatenative language.
10:22:48 <cpressey> Which I actually started a long time ago, only finished it up this year.
10:22:55 <andrewd3> look at that you posted at a palinfdromic time
10:22:56 <andrewd3> 12:22:21
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10:24:40 <andrewd3> irc or more moder nstuff
10:26:31 <andrewd3> vote now on your phones
10:27:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: "Find a number larger than (10^50-1)/9 that is only divisible by the first 27 primes and is as small as you can make it" => nice, that looks tractable
10:27:05 <esowiki> [[ACL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64993&oldid=64984 * A * (+232) /* Example Code */
10:27:22 <cpressey> andrewd3: I've got Opera Mini on my phone. Very advanced stuff
10:27:34 <andrewd3> ye
10:27:43 <wob_jonas> int-e: can you make smaller versions of that problem for which you can find an exact solution, as testcases?
10:27:48 <wob_jonas> s/make/define/
10:28:14 <andrewd3> a thing to make this better would be if ais523 exploded from the sky and that guy named urban who made BF would send himself back to esos for a while
10:28:21 <andrewd3> (urban works for search.ch now)
10:30:22 <andrewd3> eso idea: eso using the commands 123456789A (the digits of bijective base 10) whose source is interpreted as an integer in bijective base 10
10:30:36 <andrewd3> and that is how many characters the source needs to be for the program to run as it does
10:30:47 <andrewd3> a family of these actually, using different bijective bases
10:31:16 <wob_jonas> cpressey: languages with infinite inputs => I think we talked a bit about the case of Waterfall Model. The default version is to allow only rational numbers. If you allow any real number in the program, then you can encode any infinite bit sequence in a way that the program can extract (slowly).
10:31:41 <andrewd3> the idea could work
10:36:52 <andrewd3> another idea: make a language that is one big formula
10:41:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: hmm, you did scale that well. it is somewhat above what's easy to solve, but very easy to verify, so it makes a good challenge
10:41:19 <cpressey> I'm not familiar with the idea of bijective bases unfortunately
10:41:29 <andrewd3> bijective is basically without 0
10:41:37 <andrewd3> that's what a bijective base is
10:44:06 <esowiki> [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64994&oldid=56758 * B jonas * (+27) [[Category:Pattern-based]]
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10:46:15 <andrewd3> doot
10:55:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64995&oldid=64982 * JonoCode9374 * (+13) /* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */
10:55:33 <andrewd3> idea: language with the feature to twist a tape
11:01:35 <myname> what is tape twisting supposed to mean
11:01:53 <andrewd3> literally take the tape and twist it
11:01:57 <andrewd3> make a half twist
11:02:02 <andrewd3> it's a joke language idea i have
11:06:09 <myname> how would that be different to just having 2 tapes to switch between?
11:06:25 <andrewd3> it wouldn't
11:06:31 <andrewd3> joke idea
11:06:34 <Taneb> If you twist too much the tape can snap
11:06:44 <wob_jonas> yeah, it would just jam the drive
11:06:53 <Taneb> Maybe you can push twists around?
11:07:32 <andrewd3> yeah
11:07:40 <andrewd3> you can also buy glue and make a mobius strip tape
11:07:44 <andrewd3> to work on
11:08:15 <andrewd3> when i say "manipulate the tape" i mean "play around with it like you would IRL"
11:09:33 <andrewd3> i plan on adding bubble wrap to my language
11:09:35 <andrewd3> as a tape
11:11:58 <andrewd3> Taneb i don't understand what you mean
11:12:35 <Taneb> x= => =x
11:12:42 <myname> pushing twists would be fun for a dual-taped unifunge
11:12:54 <andrewd3> yes
11:12:55 <andrewd3> do that
11:13:02 <andrewd3> you can push twists aroun
11:13:29 <andrewd3> however this depends on what tape you're using, if you're using duct tape it'll take quite a bit of work to untwist it
11:13:48 <myname> the problem with befunge for this is its verbosity
11:14:00 <andrewd3> mmhmm
11:14:06 <andrewd3> i don't understand but mmhmm
11:14:07 <andrewd3> go on
11:15:13 <myname> you need a lot of commands to manipulate a specific cell
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11:18:41 <andrewd3> that is bad right?
11:30:41 <andrewd3> oo
11:30:47 <andrewd3> -_-
11:33:47 <cpressey> If you have multiple tapes and multiple twists and can't push twists through other twists, you have Braid Theory
11:34:11 <andrewd3> what's that
11:36:57 <wob_jonas> dunno, but if you add "theory" to anything, it starts to sound more impressive. I don't know why pseudosciences don't do it more often.
11:37:15 <andrewd3> they do make up for it by "quantum"
11:38:01 <myname> i recently learned about a set of seamingly magical frequencies that fix DNA errors while listening to them
11:38:07 <myname> hillarious
11:38:51 <wob_jonas> `? seamingly
11:38:52 <HackEso> seamingly? Β―\(Β°β_o)/Β―
11:38:57 <wob_jonas> `? sea ming
11:38:58 <HackEso> sea ming? Β―\(Β°β_o)/Β―
11:39:00 <wob_jonas> hmm
11:39:22 <andrewd3> C-ming
11:39:27 <andrewd3> a ming programed in C
11:43:16 <cpressey> Braid Theory is just Knot Theory where your knot has been cut though and the strands are laid flat on a table
11:44:24 <andrewd3> that's a first grade subject chris
11:44:26 <andrewd3> we all know it
11:52:04 <andrewd3> l
11:53:19 <wob_jonas> maybe it's like a lemming or a sea mink
11:53:38 <andrewd3> yes
11:59:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:An Odd Rewriting System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64996&oldid=64792 * Ais523 non-admin * (+686) 1D-1D-CA = [[2C]]
12:09:25 <wob_jonas> the problem is, the sea mink is extinct
12:09:47 <andrewd3> we do have lemmings though
12:09:50 <andrewd3> let's put them to use
12:10:28 <andrewd3> wob_jonas joke programming language with lemmings?
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12:43:48 <Taneb> Zheng He was a sea ming
13:17:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64997&oldid=64995 * A * (+265) /* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */
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13:30:09 <esowiki> [[Echo Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64998&oldid=58417 * Ais523 non-admin * (+5738) Turing-completeness proof (this is comparable to the flawed proof I was working on earlier, but fixed the flaw via placing padding in Encoding B so that the position of the tag system mod m is not lost while processing it)
13:31:13 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64999&oldid=63785 * Areallycoolusername * (-9) /* Instructions */
13:31:23 <wob_jonas> `? golay
13:31:24 <HackEso> golay? Β―\(Β°β_o)/Β―
13:33:01 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65000&oldid=64990 * Areallycoolusername * (+31)
13:34:56 <wob_jonas> cpressey: at least Julia provides the div1 and mod1 functions for computing with 1-based indexes
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13:35:46 <andrewd12> i'm the same andrew from before
13:36:19 <wob_jonas> andrewd12: the same as andrewd3? you can't roll a 12 on a d3
13:36:47 <andrewd12> wob_jonas i'm breaking the laws of reality however i want, mister
13:37:09 <andrewd12> i'll make a programming language that uses bubble wrap
13:40:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65001 * Areallycoolusername * (+644) Tell User: A how Feature golf needs restrictions.
13:40:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65002&oldid=65001 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
14:08:36 <andrewd12> oof
14:11:27 <andrewd12> can anyone explain reversible computing?
14:14:32 <myname> n + 2 - 2 = n?
14:14:46 <andrewd12> o
14:14:47 <andrewd12> thanks
14:15:05 <andrewd12> whats up myname
14:15:36 <wob_jonas> [ [n=.10+?80
14:15:36 <j-bot> wob_jonas: 59
14:15:47 <andrewd12> what
14:15:48 <wob_jonas> [ (n + 2) - 2
14:15:48 <j-bot> wob_jonas: 59
14:15:49 <andrewd12> what
14:15:53 <wob_jonas> [ ((n + 2) - 2) = n
14:15:54 <j-bot> wob_jonas: 1
14:15:58 <wob_jonas> seems right
14:17:01 <andrewd12> wob
14:17:04 <andrewd12> have you made esos
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14:25:50 <andrewd12> idea: programming language that i forgot the specifications too
14:26:24 <myname> it's called c++
14:26:54 <andrewd12> yeah but only i know the specifications and there is one program and ti has not comments
14:27:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65003&oldid=65002 * A * (+240)
14:27:46 <andrewd12> what's up
14:31:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65004&oldid=65003 * A * (+353)
14:34:01 <andrewd12> gay
14:34:15 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65005&oldid=65000 * A * (+422) Old post added
14:34:33 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65006&oldid=65005 * A * (+2) /* brainfuck */ W
14:34:39 <myname> wat
14:35:00 <andrewd12> i dunno
14:35:17 <andrewd12> i have a shorter attention span, as in, i expect more active forums
14:36:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65007&oldid=65004 * A * (+48)
14:38:22 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65008&oldid=65006 * A * (+73)
14:40:26 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65009&oldid=65008 * A * (+114) /* Competitive usage */
14:42:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65010&oldid=65007 * A * (+307)
14:47:22 <andrewd12> wow
14:47:23 <andrewd12> progress
14:49:25 <esowiki> [[Swissen Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65011&oldid=64618 * Areallycoolusername * (+21)
14:57:50 <esowiki> [[Category:Golfing language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65014&oldid=53187 * A * (+102)
14:58:30 <andrewd12> joosef swassen
14:59:37 <wob_jonas> I propose that the offical #esoteric 64-byte random number shall be 0x2508FFC710F11E6303996A6F4B6C4AA82D338DB394B15E63AA7A14FF4A57A67B2B1E1E27EC196DD0909721A5E70ADD90304C0E471EBFA5A0FEBBF05C0871D712 .
15:00:03 <andrewd12> why that numbert
15:00:26 <wob_jonas> it's random, so there's no reason.
15:00:34 <wob_jonas> any other random number would work just as well
15:03:22 <andrewd12> 0x2500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000871D712
15:03:24 <wob_jonas> Furthermore, I recommend that the official #esoteric character set of 12 different characters for transmitting messages redundantly through a 7-bit serial line shall be: +,07HOSTafz}
15:03:40 <andrewd12> furthermore
15:04:07 <wob_jonas> That way we can recover any 1-bit error and detect any 2-bit error, and if parity is used on the serial line, then we can also detect 3-bit errors.
15:04:31 <andrewd12> i recommend that the official #esoteric character set for transmitting 1 random character per 100 years be aofd>XMC{:
15:06:40 <wob_jonas> andrew: that doesn't even let us detect one-bit errors
15:07:20 <andrewd12> wob_jonas it's random
15:09:46 <andrewd12> wait
15:09:47 <andrewd12> chat ded
15:09:48 <andrewd12> ?
15:14:58 <zzo38> Why do you need to transmit one random character per one 100 years?
15:15:12 <andrewd12> i do
15:15:16 <andrewd12> don't question it
15:15:54 <andrewd12> where's the invite to the esoteric language discord server?
15:15:58 <andrewd12> do you know it zzo
15:16:23 <zzo38> I don't know; I prefer IRC
15:16:39 <andrewd12> why
15:19:08 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -REi discord wisdom
15:19:09 <zzo38> IRC is not such a complicated protocol, and does not require that you use only one possible service, and actually has other possibilities too. You can even use IRC without specialized software for it (although it is convenient to have special IRC software, to do auto pong and other stuff)
15:19:09 <HackEso> No output.
15:19:19 <wob_jonas> ^ there's no such thing in the wisdom database
15:19:37 <andrewd12> ayyy zz
15:19:48 <andrewd12> your twoducks idea is cool
15:20:33 <andrewd12> we
15:21:07 <zzo38> Will you add a NNTP for esolang on the esolangs.org server?
15:21:15 <myname> why should there be a discord? there is absolutely no need for seperate channels
15:21:29 <andrewd12> what's an NNTP
15:22:27 <wob_jonas> myname: the irc channel is logged, so if someone wants to mirror its contents to a discord channel, I don't see a problem with it, feel free
15:22:42 <andrewd12> there was a discord
15:22:47 <andrewd12> but it's gone
15:22:59 <andrewd12> i was tryna get to lyricly but couldn't
15:24:28 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:25:04 <cpressey> There was an early teaching version/impl of Haskell called "Gofer", apparenly this was short for "Good for equational reasoning"
15:25:41 <andrewd12> do you know more obscure languages c
15:25:45 <andrewd12> chris*
15:25:55 <cpressey> I might
15:26:04 <wob_jonas> languages more obscure than C?
15:26:42 <myname> that's a tough one
15:26:42 <andrewd12> no
15:26:45 <andrewd12> obscure langs in general
15:27:00 <cpressey> Niakwa Programming Language is pretty obscure
15:27:18 <cpressey> I have only seen references to it, never seen it itself
15:27:38 <andrewd12> what's the *most obscure*
15:27:42 <andrewd12> i'm challenging you here
15:28:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to program in Glulx?
15:28:29 <andrewd12> no
15:30:02 <cpressey> There was a research computer called MACHO designed (in the 60's or 70's) at the uni in my hometown. I imagine its instruction set is pretty darn obscure.
15:30:21 <cpressey> These are probably the two obscurest languages I know of
15:30:39 <andrewd12> i wanna make a programming language where the data is on a literal tape
15:30:44 <andrewd12> and there's a random erro
15:30:52 <andrewd12> "YOUR WRITING ON THE TAPE WAS TOO UNINTELIGIBLE"
15:32:03 <andrewd12> you can cut up the tape
15:32:03 <zzo38> How does that MACHO computer works?
15:32:11 <andrewd12> you can scratch it
15:32:13 <andrewd12> and anything else
15:33:06 <cpressey> zzo38: I have (or had) the manual and I started scanning it, years and years ago, but never finished. I don't think the instruction set was very special.
15:33:12 <esowiki> [[256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65015 * Areallycoolusername * (+513) Created page with "'''256''' is a [[Stack]]-based [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It was made for Code [[Golf]], and it's a Turing..."
15:33:50 <cpressey> Hm, with a name like "MACHO" I think it must have been the 70's
15:34:21 <andrewd12> is zzo particularly famous in the eso community
15:34:24 <andrewd12> (if there *is* one)
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15:37:04 <andrewd12> hi ais
15:37:32 <ais523> hello
15:38:11 <ais523> I would have been online earlier β I was reading IRC β but freenode's web IRC thing no longer works at work (they have a new one that uses some sort of fancy connection that's blocked), so now ais523_ can only read, not send
15:38:35 <andrewd12> F
15:39:30 <cpressey> Re Gofer, I was going to say, Haskell is good for equational reasoning, which is close to equational logic, which corresponds to universal algebra. I think this means Haskell is a term algebra (approximately speaking)?
15:39:31 <andrewd12> how's nethack work
15:39:51 <cpressey> I want to explore this idea, anyway
15:39:59 <zzo38> Isn't this the esoteric computer programming community?
15:40:16 <andrewd12> now it isn't
15:42:08 <ais523> andrewd12: if you're interested in learning about NetHack I suggest asking in a NetHack-related channel
15:42:21 <andrewd12> ok
15:42:23 <andrewd12> i was just asking
15:42:29 <ais523> #nethack is the "official" channel but fairly dead nowadays, #hardfought is where most of the discussion tends to be
15:42:54 <andrewd12> sorry for wrong channel
15:43:06 <ais523> (what happened is that the NetHack community was split over a lot of channels with different people in various subsets, and #hardfought ended up with most of the people who mattered and so all the discussion migrated there)
15:43:16 <cpressey> We can't tell you how Nethack works. We can only tell you if Nethack is Turing-complete or now
15:43:18 <cpressey> *not
15:43:22 <ais523> it's OK to post offtopic things here, you just might not get knowledgeable answers
15:43:27 <ais523> cpressey: it isn't, much to my annoyance
15:43:39 <ais523> I don't think it has any way to read arbitrary amounts of memory
15:43:42 <ais523> I consider this a bug :-D
15:43:43 <andrewd12> and so
15:43:47 <andrewd12> ais the dragon roared
15:43:56 <andrewd12> everyone, to #hardfought soared
15:44:04 <andrewd12> he asked "WHY IS IT NOT TURING COMPLETE"
15:44:16 <andrewd12> trying to get answers from the Coding Elite
15:44:24 <andrewd12> they told him "dude, it's just a game"
15:44:37 <andrewd12> "we're in dungeons, not searching for IT fame"
15:44:43 <andrewd12> ais realized he'd wastes his life
15:44:57 <andrewd12> and backto #esoteric he ventured, in strife
15:45:01 <andrewd12> was that a good poem
15:46:38 <ais523> I don't normally expect poems in here
15:46:53 <andrewd12> eh
15:46:58 <ais523> they've been of varying quality
15:47:00 <andrewd12> it was just a thing i wrote on the spot
15:47:15 <ais523> there was a haiku a while back which was either thought-provoking or terrible depending on your point of view
15:47:26 <ais523> (not written by me, by another channel regular)
15:47:41 <ais523> it went something like this: "beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / sent from my iphone"
15:47:54 <andrewd12> haikus suck, man
15:48:27 <andrewd12> this one makes no sense, it's bad
15:48:32 <andrewd12> refrigerator
15:53:42 <andrewd12> ais523 what about that feather language
15:54:03 <ais523> don't talk about Feather :-P
15:54:13 <andrewd12> why not?
15:54:18 <andrewd12> feather's a cool idea
15:54:21 <andrewd12> why do we not talk about it
15:55:04 <ais523> it feels like it should work, but it doesn't
16:01:46 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.).
16:04:18 <andrewd12> i'm making feather? (nthe language name is "feather?)
16:04:22 <andrewd12> an approximation of feather
16:06:00 -!- andrewd12 has changed nick to andrewtheircer.
16:23:40 <esowiki> [[User:Hanzlu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65016&oldid=64945 * Hanzlu * (+362)
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17:00:38 <b_jonas> ais523: try https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net as an alternate webchat
17:01:37 <b_jonas> cpressey: is Nethack Turing-complete or now?
17:02:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:02:30 <b_jonas> "I don't think it has any way to read arbitrary amounts of memory" => um, do you mean like, per input command?
17:07:14 <esowiki> [[ACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65017&oldid=64993 * Hanzlu * (+121)
17:07:30 <andrewtheircer> texas
17:08:31 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm thinking in terms of setting up some sort of self-perpetuating shain reaction
17:08:36 <ais523> *chain reaction
17:09:38 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but in what sense? can I put a weight on my . key? paste a longer constant command string repeatedly?
17:09:51 <b_jonas> or do you just want between two commands?
17:09:59 <ais523> I was assuming no action from the player, maybe they're a blue jelly with an amulet of unchanging in a boulder fort
17:10:18 <b_jonas> that can work too
17:10:31 <b_jonas> or trigger a bug in the travel command where it loops
17:11:16 <b_jonas> I think there are two difficulties why this rarely or never happens, one is that nethack tries to be balanced in a way that reactions don't get exponential, the other is that there's too much randomness
17:11:29 <b_jonas> so it's hard to rely on the same thing happening all the time
17:11:56 <andrewtheircer> ooooo
17:11:58 <andrewtheircer> nethack eso
17:14:07 <b_jonas> now I'm trying to imagine a StackFlow implementation in a variant, where you have like ten piles of corpses, a creature zaps a wand of undead turning (this doesn't happen) in a direction depending on the type of that creature, the beam rebounds from the walls (this also doesn't happen), hits the right pile, and revives the corpse on top of that pile
17:16:25 <b_jonas> and then the first monster dies, but that's the easy part
17:21:58 <b_jonas> yeah, the hard part is that they have to be able to walk to multiple piles and leave specific other corpses as death drops there, before zapping the wand
17:22:21 <b_jonas> I guess at that point I could just imagine Waterfall Model instead, but even then it just doesn't work out
17:26:53 <b_jonas> or perhaps data is stored by a large cyclic queue of monsters wondering around in a directed loop that involves a trapdoor and a stairs up, and a protagonist who has to keep climbing up and down the stairs
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17:34:10 <b_jonas> [ 295.30*70
17:34:10 <j-bot> b_jonas: 20671
17:39:24 <esowiki> [[ACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65018&oldid=65017 * Hanzlu * (+1161)
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17:42:24 <ais523> `! brachylog 295.30Γββ
17:42:25 <HackEso> β \ true.
17:42:32 <ais523> `! brachylog 295.30ΓββαΊ
17:42:33 <HackEso> 20671.0 \ \ true.
17:42:49 <ais523> right, was checking to see if there'd be a .0 (and indeed, if the number would parse correctly)
17:43:29 <ais523> `! brachylog 70Γβ295.30αΊ
17:43:30 <HackEso> β \ false.
17:43:39 <ais523> aha, I thought that might happen :-D
17:43:57 <ais523> `! brachylog 295.30Γβ70αΊ
17:43:58 <HackEso> 20671.0 \ \ true.
17:45:52 <b_jonas> also I realized last week where the name "brachylog" comes from. "brachy" means "short", and "log" is an abbreviation for "logic", the same one as used in "prolog"
17:45:58 <b_jonas> this should have been obvious
17:46:41 <b_jonas> but none of the other golf languages or competitions seem to use "brachy" in their name
17:51:26 <esowiki> [[ACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65019&oldid=65018 * Hanzlu * (+1)
18:00:07 <esowiki> [[ACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65020&oldid=65019 * Hanzlu * (+123)
18:19:56 <b_jonas> the docs of Brachylog are rather unclear
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18:42:41 <b_jonas> and the language design is ... odd too, definitely esoteric
18:42:48 <b_jonas> but there are a lot of things I don't understand from the docs
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19:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, oh wow there was more actix drama
19:57:18 <Taneb> What's actix?
20:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http server library written in rust
20:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> by a dev who habitually switched off rust's safety checks at the drop of a hat and didn't understand how to write unsafe code at all
20:02:31 <Taneb> I can see how that'd lead to drama
20:02:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
20:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, because he also had this incredibly defensive mentality towards the whole thing to the point where he'd just close pull requests fixing needlessly unsafe code and tell them to fuck off
20:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> but the rust community cult of niceness doesn't let you say that this guy is being an antisocial dick and you shouldn't use his projects, at least without a bunch of white knights saying that you're horrible ungrateful people who are not worthy to persecute this titan of http libraries
20:06:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:06:28 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
20:07:02 <zzo38> If you will see to use the projects or don't, to see if the project is good for your use, rather than if the author is bad.
20:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> well the thing is that even saying 'this project's code is too unsafe to use with any confidence' is then interpreted as an attack on the developer
20:08:44 <zzo38> That isn't very good, then. It shouldn't be interpreted as an attack on the developer.
20:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it isn't very good
20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> what you see emerging is a defence in depth strategy designed to prevent anyone from ever criticising any project
20:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "the code is bad" "you should do something constructive and report issues rather than complaining"
20:10:54 <zzo38> Well, you should indicate what is bad about the code, rather than just "the code is bad"
20:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "the code is bad for these reasons" "it's open source, you should fix it yourself and submit pull requests"
20:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "here's a pull request" "i think the code is fine, closed"
20:12:00 <zzo38> If the author of that code disagree with other people who want it difference anyways, that is why, then you should fork it.
20:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "the code is crappy and the developer won't fix it, don't use it" "wow why are you attacking this developer, don't you know they're working for free"
20:13:19 <zzo38> Yes, the alternative is to don't use it, if you don't want to use.
20:13:32 <zzo38> If you do not want to fork it.
20:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> idk what they'll say if you fork but i imagine they'll have a fallback
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20:49:08 <esowiki> [[Boat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65021&oldid=40619 * Hakr14 * (+281) I made your tables look nice.
20:59:34 -!- xkapastel has joined.
21:05:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65022 * A * (+666) Created page with "== People who don't know two golfing languages with different paradigms can not create a good golfing language == Uh-oh. You are trying to create another golfing language, but..."
21:06:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65023&oldid=65022 * A * (+55)
21:07:37 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65024&oldid=65015 * A * (+2) Typos
21:09:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65025&oldid=65023 * A * (+111)
21:12:27 <esowiki> [[User:Hanzlu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65026&oldid=65016 * A * (+118) /* Rotating Cell Tape */
21:14:30 <esowiki> [[User:Hanzlu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65027&oldid=65026 * A * (+215) /* Rotating Cell Tape */
21:16:17 <esowiki> [[Boat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65028&oldid=65021 * Hakr14 * (+603) I pressed save instead of preview... whoops
21:16:43 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:19:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hanzlu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65029&oldid=65027 * A * (+74) /* Rotating Cell Tape */
21:24:15 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
21:24:41 <kmc> they make a big deal about "technical criticism not personal attacks" but then interpret everything as the latter
21:24:55 <kmc> you're allowed to criticise technical decisions (as long as you're sufficiently long-winded) but not the attitudes or behaviors that lead to them... as though decisions are made in a vacuum
21:27:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65030&oldid=64997 * A * (-1426) /* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ Merged, add new issue.
21:43:29 <tswett[m]> I'm gonna design a 15.99967-bit CPU. Each register and each memory location will contain an integer in the range from 0 to 65520.
21:44:16 <ais523> kmc: the obvious thing to do is to have all code contributed anonymously so that personal attacks aren't possible, all you can criticise is the code because you can't know who wrote it
21:44:19 <tswett[m]> Or equivalently, -32760 to 32760.
21:44:31 <ais523> but that has problems in a different way, in that it may make people unwilling to contribute
21:45:37 <kmc> well that used to be more the norm in open source
21:45:48 <kmc> now people use their real names cause they want to give talks and build their career on it
21:46:06 <ais523> I typically use my real name for copyright reasons
21:48:04 <zzo38> ais523: Are you sure you will be unwilling to contribute?
21:48:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65031&oldid=65025 * Areallycoolusername * (+406)
21:48:49 <zzo38> I suppose another possibility is to allow (but not require) anonymous contributions
21:49:01 <ais523> zzo38: me personally, maybe not
21:49:50 <kmc> problem is once you use your real name you're also vulnerable to people coming after you for things you said elsewhere on the internet
21:49:55 <kmc> i've played that game and it sucks
21:50:02 <kmc> so that's one reason i'm leaving open source
21:53:09 <ais523> I kept "ais523" separate from my real name for many years but the connection's probably too widely known at this point
21:53:19 <zzo38> I have not had such problem, but, I don't care so much about that anyways.
21:53:45 <zzo38> I still work some open source stuff, mainly my own programs, although I put it into the public domain anyways
21:58:44 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65032&oldid=64987 * A * (-2) /* Cat program */
22:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, yeah it's just this culture that presupposes that everyone will try to make personal attacks and that's the only thing that can go wrong
22:00:42 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65033&oldid=65032 * A * (+9) /* Cat program */
22:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> which surprise surprise is basically the exact general attitude that defensive prima-donnas take whenever their work is questioned
22:01:25 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65034&oldid=65024 * Areallycoolusername * (+1122)
22:02:35 <zzo38> For my own projects I do allow you to post tickets anonymously if you want to do.
22:05:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65035&oldid=65031 * A * (+361)
22:07:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65036&oldid=65035 * A * (+61)
22:10:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65037&oldid=65036 * A * (+307) /* People who don't know two golfing languages with different paradigms can not create a good(competitive) golfing language */
22:16:47 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65038&oldid=65034 * A * (+185) In order to make me feel relaxed when I am writing the integers function...
22:17:17 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a implementation of SDL1 for SDL2?
22:17:52 <zzo38> Also, is there a implementation of SDL2 on SDL1?
22:19:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65039&oldid=65037 * A * (+247)
22:25:17 <kmc> zzo38: then you could nest them
22:28:10 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65040&oldid=65038 * A * (+1) /* Computational class */
22:30:33 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65041&oldid=65040 * A * (+70) /* Computational class */ No it isn't (yet)
22:33:39 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65042&oldid=65041 * A * (+352) /* Computational class */
22:34:17 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I kept "ais523" separate from my real name for many years" => I don't remember that
22:34:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65043&oldid=65039 * A * (+37)
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22:41:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65044&oldid=65043 * Areallycoolusername * (+186)
22:41:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65045&oldid=65044 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
22:42:18 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65046&oldid=65042 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
23:31:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65047&oldid=65045 * A * (+0)
β2019-08-01 2019-08-02 2019-08-03β β2019 βall