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01:21:22 <zzo38> I wrote on a paper my ideas about how to make upa better television set.
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02:29:14 <kmc> zzo38: oh?
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02:34:01 <zzo38> Some stuff I wrote, such as, there is 4:3 display, and on the right is the buttons, IR receiver, status display, OSD switch, speaker, and also a remote control holder.
02:35:24 <zzo38> On the back, there is the sections of inputs: two Digi-RGB sections (each having Digi-RGB, left audio, right audio, and IMIDI), one composite section (composite, left audio, right audio), one component section (Y, Cr, Cb, left audio, right audio; there is also a mode to use the component section as a second composite section), and RF.
02:35:54 <zzo38> Also on the back is the reset switch, the IMIDI out port, the audio output (if you want to use external speakers), and several dip switches.
02:36:52 <zzo38> Do you think it is good?
02:37:24 <kmc> seems pretty reasonable
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02:38:38 <zzo38> To take up less space, mainly.
02:38:56 <zzo38> If such a TV set is manufactured, it could come in both 4:3 and 16:9 versions, I suppose.
02:42:02 <zzo38> And then there would be the software features, such as caption scrollback, numeric command prefixes (similar to vi), adjustment of colour conversion matrix, etc.
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02:59:48 <zzo38> O, and there is also a ethernet port. This could be used for streaming video/audio, but Gopher and ViewData could possibly also be implemented.
03:02:26 <kmc> you might be the only person on earth who wants a TV that can browse Gopher using a vi-like interface
03:02:34 <kmc> but I'm not going to say you're wrong
03:02:38 <kmc> follow your dreams
03:22:38 <zzo38> Also, I think ViewData was designed for television (according to a photograph I have seen, at least), so it will work well in this way.
04:40:56 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65310&oldid=65263 * A * (+60) /* Natural numbers set not using the built-in N */
04:50:57 <zzo38> What are all of the control codes for Viewdata anyways?
04:55:05 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65311&oldid=65308 * A * (+165) Extend this subset
04:59:51 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65312&oldid=65311 * A * (-3) /* Set-comparison instructions */
05:11:02 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65313&oldid=65312 * A * (+7)
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06:10:58 <int-e> salpynx: It's not just the example that's wrong. The translation of w1 is plain wrong, ever since this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iota_and_Jot&diff=757746945&oldid=757746752 (the translation of w0 is correct, but not a simplification over [w0] = [w]SK).
06:15:04 <int-e> salpynx: Referring to the esolang page on Jot, the whole point of the translation of w1 is that it operates on arguments to the right, combining two of them, so that [F{K}] = [F11100] = [F1110]SK = [F111]SKSK = [F11](SK)SK = [F1](SKS)K = [F](SKSK) = [F]K holds regardless of F.
06:16:59 <int-e> salpynx: (That's one of the base cases of proving the identity [F{A}] = [F]A that the esolang wiki page mentions.\)
06:20:02 <int-e> Oh, it seems I can edit today. Different IP :P
06:25:50 <zzo38> salpynx: Yes, I suppose, such thing can be "TV improved", maybe. And then, we will also have VCR/DVD improved.
06:26:33 <shachaf> this is my fact of the day
06:57:15 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65314&oldid=65313 * A * (-19)
07:10:27 <int-e> salpynx: So I've edited the page, let's see whether the edit survives Wikipedia's general disdain for "IPs".
07:10:57 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65315&oldid=65314 * A * (+7)
07:13:22 <int-e> (Meh, these things always take me so long.)
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08:42:54 <cpressey> Good morning. How about a stack-based language that is statically typechecked by translating all operations to operations that push and pop type-values to the stack instead, and running that.
08:46:58 <Taneb> You need to be a bit careful if there's any non-trivial control flow
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09:01:15 <cpressey> True. That's one of the things that makes it kind of interesting though.
09:03:11 <Taneb> If you have while loops, say, you can make sure the body is of type (A:Bool) -> B, with the condition B -> (A:Bool), for example
09:03:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: as for that, I wonder, is there some widely supported standard for transmitting raw (uncompressed) digital audio through wires, sort of like DVI but for audio instead of video? and if so, why not?
09:03:14 <wob_jonas> it seems to me that everyone uses either analog audio (or even composite) or bluetooth audio.
09:05:16 <wob_jonas> and this is despite that we've had audio CD equipment for ages
09:06:24 <Taneb> Hmm, my scheme would restrict the language to being a LBA, I think (correspondign to simply typed lambda calculus))
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09:45:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheOnlyMrcat * New user account
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09:50:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65316&oldid=65247 * TheOnlyMrcat * (+238) /* Introductions */
09:51:28 <HackEso> andrewtheircer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
09:54:47 <shachaf> I believe it's permitted to sing into your microphone while in this channel.
09:55:12 <andrewtheircer> someone says "creeper" then another person says "aw man"
09:55:46 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you know things about QBF solvers, remind me?
09:56:06 <shachaf> Oh, I think reciting the lyrics into your microphone is also permitted.
09:56:38 <shachaf> Oh man, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_hierarchy has Sigma, Pi, and Delta, but no Sigma -| Delta -| Pi adjunction.
09:57:06 <shachaf> That's so confusing. The letter Δ should be banned for this use.
09:58:58 <shachaf> Title: Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Video) - YouTube
09:59:34 <shachaf> Please don't try to trick people like that. It's quite rude.
10:00:06 <andrewtheircer> there are two types of people in this world: those who listen to that on purpose
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10:20:05 <Taneb> shachaf: I don not know things about QBF solvers
10:20:50 <Taneb> I barely know anything about anything, quite frankly.
10:20:59 <Taneb> Where can I find out about QBF solvers?
10:22:01 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't know much about QBF solvers.
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10:22:19 <shachaf> One good trick is to come to Berkeley and ask edwardk about them.
10:22:23 <int-e> I would start at http://www.qbflib.org/qbfeval19.php
10:22:44 <shachaf> I'm the most famous sha of them all.
10:22:45 <int-e> (I've seen some QBF solver basics.)
10:22:46 <Taneb> Berkeley's all the way in Gloucestershire, though
10:22:50 <Taneb> It's practically on the west coast!
10:23:40 <shachaf> Hmm, actually they call me SHA-512/256.
10:24:02 <Taneb> Hmm, Berkeley was where vaccination was invented
10:24:25 <shachaf> I thought it was in China or something?
10:24:27 <andrewtheircer> technically the word vaccine comes from antivaxxers of the time as they thought vaccines would turn you into a cow :p
10:24:48 <int-e> (I guess the 2018 edition is more fruitful for now. But you should learn some tool names, which will lead to corresponding papers, which will be educational.)
10:25:14 <HackEso> 737) <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
10:25:36 <wob_jonas> so is that where the legends about werecows come from?
10:26:01 <HackEso> 796) <kmc> typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
10:26:05 <shachaf> Maybe solvers that just support two quantifiers or something are more interesting in practice.
10:26:11 <shachaf> Unlimited quantifiers seems pretty extreme.
10:26:31 <wob_jonas> that explains why a mad scientist would become one
10:28:39 <int-e> shachaf: the particular class is called 2QBF and has its own track at QBFEVAL..
10:29:29 <int-e> (Since the objective is to *decide* formulas there's no real difference between the \forall\exists and \exists\forall prefixes)
10:30:29 <shachaf> Presumably this is sigma_2 and pi_2 or something.
10:30:47 <int-e> Yes. They're just dual of each other.
10:31:56 <shachaf> Are they left and right adjoint to some functor? twh
10:33:00 <int-e> For that you need to ask somebody who cares about category theory.
10:33:23 <shachaf> My only objection is to this delta thing.
10:33:33 <shachaf> Delta should always mean diagonal or difference.
10:34:15 <int-e> I suspect \Delta is for "deterministic"
10:34:32 <int-e> or possibly "decision"
10:34:59 <HackEso> 1288) <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
10:35:24 <wob_jonas> you all have very specific ideas on how the use of letters should be restricted
10:35:33 <int-e> ...what if q is a state of an automaton though...
10:37:31 <shachaf> That seems fine for a two-state automaton.
10:38:01 <shachaf> Actually, I guess using delta for diagonal is only a category thing?
10:38:13 <shachaf> What do normal people call f : a -> (a,a)?
10:38:41 <int-e> shachaf: `dup` is the suggestion recently/currently discussed on the haskell libaries mailing list
10:39:35 <int-e> `diag` is a plausible name, of course.
10:39:36 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: diag`: not found
10:40:11 <int-e> And yes, I would probably use a lower case delta in formal writing, if I needed a name.
10:40:26 <shachaf> Oh, right, people use lowercase delta for it rather than capital.
10:43:01 <andrewtheircer> idea: whitespace (the eso) but with added blank characters
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11:59:55 <salpynx> int-e: that looks a lot better (Jot wikipedia edit) thank you! The article is trying to refer everything back to the Barker's iota combinator, and your last sentence does that. I was wondering if there was a simpler example to show w1, but I guess it's not that simple an operation. [w]S & [w]K are useful examples, and the intermediate steps are fol
11:59:56 <salpynx> lowable using the info on the page. Good stuff :)
12:00:25 <esowiki> [[ACL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65317&oldid=65309 * YamTokTpaFa * (-25) /* History and Turing Completeness */
12:04:57 <salpynx> for opinions on what delta means in maths, how about 4? Some pretty decent mathematicians used that convention quite early on.
12:05:33 <int-e> salpynx: thanks for the feedback!
12:08:31 <salpynx> I'll keep an eye on the page and defend your IP edit if needed :)
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13:51:19 <wob_jonas> I spent a weekend in London as a short family vacation. there was something that I found very confusing:
13:53:59 <wob_jonas> most bus stations had a street level map of its surroundings, which is great, but the problem is, they were all roated such that down on the map was the direction that the sign faced, rather than consistently south.
13:54:19 <wob_jonas> It drove me crazy because I saw the map oriented randomly in different directions every time.
13:54:47 <wob_jonas> It's hard to follow maps that way.
13:54:54 <Taneb> Means you don't need a compass to navigate
13:55:42 <Taneb> I think it's OK when you get used to it
13:56:11 <wob_jonas> If you get used to it, you no longer need the map signs in the bus stops
13:57:12 <wob_jonas> the fix is probably to buy a paper city map and ignore the maps on the signs (but still look at the other info on the signs, such as the name of the station and which bus lines stop there and towards where and how often)
13:59:44 <Taneb> I think being able to read a map oriented that way is a more transferable ability than you're suggesting
14:00:07 <wob_jonas> why can't they just put normal maps up?
14:00:24 <wob_jonas> It's my fault, I should have bought a paper map and used it
14:00:29 <Taneb> What's a "normal map"?
14:01:11 <wob_jonas> A normal map is like the good maps we used to have 20 years ago, that are no longer possible to buy because not enough people pay for them to be worth economically to make *sigh*
14:01:30 <wob_jonas> even for Budapest they no longer exist
14:01:48 <wob_jonas> I am using a combination of a fresh map with the last good map that there was
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14:42:08 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/String]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65318 * A * (+1589) Created page with "This is a string-based version of [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset]], as there are programming difficulties for using lists. This attempts to make Multi-Set Manipulator a pure..."
14:47:22 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator/String]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65319&oldid=65318 * A * (+75)
14:51:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65320 * Andrew3335 * (+211) Created page with "It was really fun making that math paper language with you. Sorry if I'm really really late, but thanks for that endeavor. It was my best language so far (dotlang was a befung..."
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17:45:37 <zzo38> I had idea about something similar to a "do notation" like Haskell but to use with a preprocessor for JavaScript codes. Such as: const listMonad=(m,f)=>[].concat(...m.map(f)); const x=listMonad*>{ let a=yield [1,2,9]; let b=[3,4,5,7]; return a-b; };
17:52:56 <rain2> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57376279/ thoughts abuot this?
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17:58:02 <rain2> andrewtheircer: thoughts
18:07:51 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e'while(<>) { if (/^----- ([0-9]+) /) { 13 == $1 and last; } elsif (/^[^ ]/) { m"^[(]?([\-\x27./A-Za-z]+)[!)+*]*\r?$" or die "syntax $_"; push @w,$1; } } print $w[rand@w]," " for 1..21; print "\n";' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt
18:07:52 <HackEso> partial palm meter breathe near specific agreement beat striking liver qualify western above entity convince subject ranch viewer gas manager extensive
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18:08:43 <b_jonas> printing random common words
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18:09:06 <HackEso> ficising creed wportie michtfully cribarabe sain convidentwo vale dra tallatek zygeima acheth eilesita ally iii bcnchover woien devell baram donne ryon
18:09:24 <b_jonas> and random mythic rare words
18:09:45 <andrewtheircer> how many time travelling esoteric languages've been done
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18:25:17 <rain2> check my link andrewtheircer
18:34:36 <b_jonas> andrewtheircer: so? that's not an adult site, StackOverflow can be written from the age of 13, read by anyone
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19:32:11 <b_jonas> In athletics sport, when do you suppose the traditional approach to high jump with a fixed bar will get replaced by a grid of lights and detectors so that the jumper doesn't have to bet on how high he jumps exactly where and in what directions, the detectors just figure out what the highest line is that he's jumped over? (A bar, lower than usual, can still be there as a guideline for approximately where
19:34:41 <b_jonas> There can still be multiple attempts of jumps of course.
19:37:26 <kmc> that is an interesting idea
19:38:05 <kmc> I know that major league baseball is going to start using radar to judge whether a ball has gone through the strike zone or not
19:39:40 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could do something with long jump and hammer throw too so that it's automatically measured where exactly someone took the last step before the jump or threw from respectively and subtract it
19:39:57 <kmc> and the umpire will still make a call but is expected to agree with the machine in typical cases
19:40:17 <b_jonas> there'd still be some intervals of course, because of technical limitations, in all of those cases, but still it could help
19:40:40 <b_jonas> heck, perhaps even for short distance running people would no longer have to start at exactly the same moment
19:40:59 <b_jonas> and short distance swimming too
19:45:32 <b_jonas> and of course put them in air conditioned buildings so that there's no wind and carefully controlled predictable temperature and air pressure and humidity, and make multiple different categories depending on what accleration the artificial gravitation generator is set to
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19:58:13 <b_jonas> swimmers have always tried to swim in water of various temperatures, and of course for high level competitions in short distance swimming, they try to set a temperature close to ideal. the Mythbusters even did some attempt to try water with viscosity much higher than usual. but I think nobody experimented with swimming in lower than usual or higher than usual gravity yet.
20:01:08 <Hooloovo0> yeah, it's kind of a hard thing to test, lots of water is kind of a pain to work with
20:01:23 <Hooloovo0> and it shouldn't matter a whole lot, at least if you're submerged
20:01:50 <Hooloovo0> since your density is basically the same as water's
20:02:07 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: sure, although sea water can be denser than normal
20:03:00 <Hooloovo0> true, and a couple of lakes are saltier/denser still
20:05:03 <b_jonas> yeah, the Dead Sea most famously, only it's in the Middle East where there are some ... political problems
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20:12:29 <Hooloovo0> hmm, it's actually not that different from the great salt lake's salinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bodies_of_water_by_salinity
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20:13:53 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: I, um, might be biased and heard more of the former because it's closer to here
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20:28:25 <zzo38> Do you play any Washizu mahjong or dark mahjong or any other kind of Fukumoto variants of mahjong?
20:28:52 <kmc> I have never played any variant of mahjong including the normal one
20:32:59 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong requires most (but not all) of the tiles to be transparent (so that your opponent can see it too), but dark mahjong can use the ordinary equipment for mahjong.
20:34:04 <b_jonas> by transparent, do you mean they're marked on the back too?
20:34:24 <b_jonas> can you see them even in the wall/deck from where you're drawing the cards?
20:35:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: That is one way to implement it (I have seen this as a suggestion), but the set I have uses tiles that you can actually see through.
20:35:28 <zzo38> In Washizu mahjong the tiles are drawn from a bag (and you will wear a glove on that hand), so you can't see them before they are drawn.
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20:37:49 <zzo38> Dark mahjong is you are allowed to discard face-down, but doing so costs 1000 points. Opponent can try to make it face-up by a payment of 2000 points, but if the discarder then bets an additional 4000 points then it remains face-down. However, it is still allowed to call ron on that tile even though you cannot see it! If you do so correctly, then the score for your hand is doubled.
20:37:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I see. I'm just used to cards, not mahjong, which is why I find the idea of transparent strange, although admittedly there is one commercial card game with actually transparent plastic cards (called Swish IIRC)
20:38:05 <b_jonas> ah, drawn from a bag, like in Scrabble. makes sense.
20:38:37 <zzo38> (Some rules for dark mahjong are still unclear though, such as how face-down discarding interacts with furiten.)
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