00:13:51 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:25:52 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:29:43 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65481&oldid=65468 * Areallycoolusername * (+414) 00:31:46 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65482&oldid=65481 * Areallycoolusername * (+320) /* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */ 00:39:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:50:15 -!- ARCUN has joined. 00:50:43 Does anyone know how I can aquire an original Commodore 64? 00:51:41 I assume you're looking for it on the cheap? 00:51:55 Yeah 00:52:15 I'm not really sure... ebay is probably not your best bet for that... not sure what is 00:52:34 it's not like it's an extremely rare machine, though 00:53:20 I might ask cpressey. I bet he would know, as he already has one 00:56:01 -!- ARCUN has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:32:30 [[ABC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65483&oldid=63966 * Dtuser1337 * (-3) fixing the code in hello world 01:37:19 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:51:56 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:40:20 [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65484&oldid=63614 * Dtuser1337 * (+15) 02:40:38 [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65485&oldid=65484 * Dtuser1337 * (-15) Undo revision 65484 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]]) 02:41:04 [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65486&oldid=65485 * Dtuser1337 * (+23) 02:41:15 [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65487&oldid=65486 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) 02:43:20 [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65488&oldid=65483 * Dtuser1337 * (+6) much better, i guess? 02:45:02 [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65489&oldid=65488 * Dtuser1337 * (+13) /* Discussions */ 02:49:18 -!- tromp has joined. 02:54:57 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65490&oldid=65452 * Dtuser1337 * (-1) /* Lua */ 03:08:30 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in). 03:08:47 -!- laerling has joined. 03:11:05 [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65491&oldid=65487 * Dtuser1337 * (+43) 03:12:23 [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65492&oldid=65489 * Dtuser1337 * (+43) 04:50:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:50:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:11:49 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:12:10 -!- tromp has joined. 07:41:02 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:44:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:48:07 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:51:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:56:22 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:58:22 `? concurrency 07:58:24 concurrency? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:02:18 controversial currency? 08:02:27 `? password 08:02:28 The password of the month is surprising. 08:02:42 I would have guess that it's the categorical dual of ncurrency. 08:03:11 that's too categorical for me this early in the morning 08:04:00 `grwp daul 08:04:04 No output. 08:04:05 `grwp dual 08:04:09 block device:Block devices are a concession made in Unix to make raw hard disks and magnetic tape have a similar interface to regular files and terminals. Since magnetic tapes can't write individual bytes, only entire blocks, the interface isn't exactly the same, thus the dreaded dd obs= option was born. \ comonad:Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into. \ elrond:Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Ma 08:04:46 Hah I didn't expect "individual". 08:07:40 the password of the month reminds me of a situation i had during apprenticeship. i needed to decide for a password and somebody said "i am going to type anything" and i said "brilliant. out new password will be 'anything'" 08:07:41 `2 grwp dual 08:07:42 2/3:he Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves. \ nundrum:A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless. \ palindrome:A palindrome is a word that remains the same if you take it to the mirror dimension, and then take each individual letter back to the normal dimension separately. \ sober space:Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them. 08:07:57 `n 08:07:57 3/3: \ splay:Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume. 08:11:12 int-e: Do you not even like adjunctions? 08:12:24 `? adjunction 08:12:25 adjunction? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:13:07 `? adjoint 08:13:08 adjoint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:13:29 `grWp adjunction 08:13:30 No output. 08:13:32 `grWp adjoint 08:13:33 No output. 08:13:56 `1 grWp universal 08:13:58 1/1:pikachu:Pikachu is a universal quantifier for Chu spaces. \ universal property:Universal properties are the best. 08:14:05 The wiki has a link to the IRC channel, which contains its own wiki 08:16:02 What would the existential quantifier for Chu spaces be? 08:17:51 Gesundheit. Because it's a witness to a Chu. 08:18:01 I'll show myself out 08:18:53 one of those is a b_jonaswisdom too 08:18:59 the dome is full of them 08:19:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:20:28 Presumably it's //block device// 08:20:34 `cwlprits block device 08:20:36 b_jonäs 08:21:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:37:26 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:44:05 shachaf: I read your writeup about error handling. The thing it reminded me the most of, I guess, is Haskell's Data.Either, especially how can be used as a monad, to make it "flat". 08:46:01 lambdabot: did you nudge cpressey about my Wagon efforts? ;-) 08:48:31 int-e: Ah yes it did. My fault for not knowing how my IRC client works. 08:50:24 int-e: Very cool. I'll have to test it out when I get a moment. 08:52:30 cpressey: Yes, though I feel like monads don't quite deliver on their promise for this sort of thing. 08:52:40 For example monad transformers are a mess. 08:53:44 Haskell functions also don't have an implicit place for "return" to be lexically bound to like e.g. C functions. 08:53:58 So instead it behaves dynamically bound like exceptions. 08:58:11 *brow furrows* I think you want "return" to be dynamically bound, otherwise, you can only call the function from one place? I must be misunderstanding you. 08:59:05 Hmm, I guess the thing I'm talking about is something in between. 08:59:06 we're in a bind and I don't know what it is 08:59:19 It has to do with a thing I haven't figured out yet. 08:59:42 (I don't know what you mean by "dynamically bound" here) 08:59:47 What I mean is: When you see the keyword "return", you can look at the program statically and figure out where it'll jump to. 08:59:51 -!- mniip has quit (Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.). 09:00:13 Or the compiler can do it. 09:00:16 you can? 09:00:40 Can't you? 09:00:49 'return' is as dynamic as you get in C... the function could be called from anywhere. 09:01:01 Oh, I just mean you can see which block it returns from. 09:01:07 -!- mniip has joined. 09:01:19 int foo() { if (...) return 0; ... } -- you can tell that that return returns from foo. 09:01:28 Whereas "Left 0" could be going anywhere. 09:01:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:01:52 Maybe this isn't really fair to say, though. 09:03:11 Left 0 >> ... will end up inside ... "next", for some value of "next". 09:03:29 shachaf: You can find the set of callpoints it can potentially return to, and you could, for instance, insist that some condition pertains at all those points... this is sometimes called having an effect system. 09:03:54 It's really entirely different from 'return' in C. 09:04:14 which block it returns *from* should be... lexical? 09:04:28 * cpressey tries to imagine a language in which it is not 09:04:37 I agree that it's pretty different, but they were presented as similar? 09:04:43 cpressey: INTERCAL, I suppose 09:05:11 There's the similarity where you can write: "foo = either id id $ do { ...; when p (Left x); ... }" to implement early exit. 09:05:14 cpressey: and maybe aspect-oriented programming as a paradigm? I don't know enough about that. 09:06:15 cpressey: I think the more direct analogy is maybe delimited continuations. 09:06:21 (but arguably even if you don't know where you're coming from and where you'll go next, all imperative programming languages have a notion of "here, right now") 09:07:13 int-e: dear god, an aspect that can splice in a return statement... 09:09:44 Man. I should figure out all my half-coherent language ideas. 09:10:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:10:31 shachaf: better you than us ;-) 09:11:02 I should just type them all into the channel and have you figure them out for me. 09:12:22 I thought that was what you were doing already. 09:12:59 Only occasionally. 09:13:06 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:36:37 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:42:33 -!- WhoaNelly has joined. 09:42:38 cpressey: yeah, in current languages you can do that only by explicit call-ec objects or similar. but I can imagine a language where some of those keywords (return, next/last/redo/retry) use an implicit lexical variable and can refer to the outer named function where the block/lambda was created 09:43:19 but since I mostly program in a goto-less style, this doesn't come up often 09:45:01 you'd also need loop labels and goto labels to generate exit variables that can be bound by closures even if they go to an outer function, but at that point they become full call/cc continuations, because you can jump to them even after the block that contains them has exited 09:45:15 and that may be the main reason why that's not usually implemented\ 09:47:54 I imagine this would most likely happen in a golf language, since they don't care too much about an efficient runtime, they might mix all sorts of paradigms and primitives that you rarely use but always add a lot of overhead to the interpreter, so eg. many slot assignments are always backtrackable just in case you use prolog-style backtracking, eve 09:47:55 rything can be pointed to by weak references, every number could contain a symbolic formula, you have full call/cc everywhere, etc 09:48:22 wob_jonas: This is related to the things we talked about a while ago. 09:48:54 shachaf: Have you ever worked out how to code a conventional try/except-type exception handler in continuation-passing style, as an exercise? 09:49:37 I think I have a good idea of how it'd go? 09:49:53 I have not done it. 09:56:22 Basically, you have a regular continuation and an exception continuation. Every time you try, you extend the exception continuation. Every time you throw, you continue on the exception continuation instead of the regular one. 09:58:41 Oh, sure, that thing. 09:58:54 This is how JavaScript people write their programs by hand anyway. 09:59:35 Presumably this is equivalent to the Either thing? 10:00:00 "... -> (success -> r) -> (failure -> r) -> r" 10:00:20 "... -> (Either success failure -> r) -> r" 10:00:55 Which you can further turn into "... -> Either success failure" if you're using r parametrically. 10:03:08 I think you can compare it to a lot of things, I was thinking of it as more of a good place to start thinking about: how would you make this better? (You seem to want something better.) 10:04:09 Hmm, I think exceptions are probably a bad idea in the first place, so I'm not sure why you'd start there. 10:04:28 I guess writing it by hand is more explicit than exceptions, at least. 10:04:48 You're still writing the moral equivalent of "try" and "throw", aren't you? 10:05:28 I'm not sure what the moral value of "try" and "throw" is. 10:05:41 I think the main goal should be something where it's as easy as possible to read the code and see how control flow can happen. 10:06:07 You have code that can signal an error. You have code that can handle an error. Those are the moral values of "throw" and "try" respectively. 10:06:21 If you don't have those, well. 10:06:23 How can you tell whether code can signal an error? 10:06:45 shachaf: be more specific, what things that who talked about a while ago? 10:06:51 If you can't tell if code has encountered an error or not, you've got worse problems than this! 10:06:56 wob_jonas: Geo and that sort of thing. 10:07:26 I guess the exception answer is "based on types" (checked exceptions) or "anything can signal an error at any time" (unchecked exceptions). 10:07:34 cpressey: no, not an either. you want to non-local exit through all the stack frames that don't catch exceptions 10:07:49 so you'd have a global variable that stores the continuation where you have to jump when you throw 10:08:06 wob_jonas: as I said, I think you can compare it to a lot of things :) 10:08:07 and a try statement sets that global variable but saves its old value 10:08:21 I didn't say it was very similar though :) 10:10:12 Forcing it all into Either is like forcing all your non-local exits into local-exits-and-always-checking-the-exit-code 10:13:51 I feel like if your error handling system is made of indirect jumps it's already too complicated, or something. 10:13:57 using Either is a lot more like shell programming where you say (echo 'hi' && touch foo && cat foo) || echo 'badness' 10:14:28 note that this only works well if you have a dynamic-unwind that you can use to run destructors as the stack is rolled off, otherwise you have to rewrite all destructors (and all python-with statement) into a try 10:14:33 int a try-finally 10:14:54 shachaf: wait, how is geo relevant for that? 10:15:10 wob_jonas: yeah, you have to weave destructors into your exception continuation too 10:15:25 shachaf: no, geo doesn't allow jumping out from inside a lambda block 10:15:36 ooc, what's Geo? 10:15:46 it wouldn't even if it implemented lambdas 10:16:03 geo only allows you to break to the innermost block, and a function would count as such an innermost block 10:16:22 or did we talk about a hypothetical extension that would allow jumping out farther with block labels? hmm 10:16:29 that may have happened, I'll have to look at the logs 10:16:53 cpressey: one of the old toy languages that I once birthed into existence but now I'm ashemed of the details and my excuse is that I was young 10:16:56 see the wiki 10:16:57 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo 10:17:03 the other one is scan 10:17:09 wob_jonas: thx 10:17:13 and there's a third one that's lost 10:17:26 and a fourth one which is called psz 10:17:33 I don't mean Geo, just the things I was talking about when we were talking about Geo. 10:17:36 Or something. 10:17:43 shachaf: yeah, it's possible 10:17:54 I think ruby would be particularly well suited for this 10:18:02 at least old ruby, before 1.9 came along 10:18:03 I think the Ruby solution is terrible. 10:18:15 The whole proc vs. lambda thing is such a mess. 10:18:31 Hmm, does Ruby implement function return with exceptions? 10:18:33 sure, I agree, ruby is terrible 10:25:00 Hmm, I should go to sleep. 10:25:14 But in the future I should ask about one of the big things I'm trying to figure out. 10:26:04 gl with that 10:26:24 I would like to go to sleep right now but sadly it is not going to sleep time here 10:26:35 It's not even being asleep time 10:29:52 @time Taneb 10:30:00 @time 10:30:04 Local time for shachaf is Wed Aug 14 03:30:01 2019 10:30:08 11:30 10:30:18 Uh oh. It's way past going to sleep time. 10:30:24 I guess I can't go to sleep now. 10:30:33 You should retroactively be asleep 10:31:19 Good idea. 10:38:26 [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65493&oldid=61623 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Pre-program delcarations */ 10:39:24 `datei 10:39:24 2019-08-14 10:39:24.695076581 +0000 UTC August 14 Wednesday 2019-W33-3 10:39:37 it's not sleep time, it's work time 10:43:53 Given a function, I would like to get a list of all exceptions that could possibly be raised by that function, and from where, and (ideally) for what reasons. You could devise a static analysis that does this. It'd be more of an analysis tool than a language feature though. 10:45:56 that's very often all exceptions, if the function takes a callback 10:46:30 potentially minus a few 10:46:43 or if it calls a virtual method or otherwise does some dynamic call where you can't determine the target of the call statically 10:47:38 [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65494&oldid=65477 * Ais523 non-admin * (-4) Undo revision 65477 by [[Special:Contributions/Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]): the word's being used here in a slightly different sense to in the linked article, so linking it is here probably more confusing than useful at the moment 10:49:56 [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65495&oldid=65476 * Ais523 non-admin * (+10) people generally dislike unmarked external/cross-namespace links here; technically the link is marked by being a slightly different shade of blue, but it's a clue that most people miss 10:51:50 Yeah, I wouldn't expect to get very useful results when running it on foldl... 10:52:58 you could still do something like: exceptions thrown by arguments + exceptions found by static analysis - exceptions handled 10:53:38 but it's not just arguments 10:53:39 where the first term is treated as symbolic. 10:55:02 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 10:58:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:11:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:12:37 yeah, not just arguments, anything that you determine you can't statically analyze (but you can report those callsites too). Vaguely interested now, looking at if there are any static analysis frameworks for Python. 11:12:59 I guess there's the ast module 11:16:48 ugh, decorators 11:17:47 well, maybe someday 11:20:00 https://python-ast-explorer.com/ if anyone is interested in what its AST looks like presently. 11:22:44 that rotating logo is oddly satisfying 11:23:33 -!- mniip_ has joined. 11:24:44 ... why does webGL not work ... oh, graphics driver update. hrm :) 11:25:02 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds). 11:25:19 I was going to check whether http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius8.html still works :P 11:32:40 -!- mniip_ has changed nick to mniip. 12:34:26 [[Disan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65496&oldid=56724 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) Why, A, why did you make such this page.... 12:34:57 [[Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65497&oldid=56401 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT languages 12:35:25 [[ParrBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65498&oldid=13826 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) Don't forget +CAT languages 12:42:52 [[Jumpback]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65499&oldid=43383 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT languages 13:05:04 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 13:11:22 -!- WhoaNelly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:33:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:36:43 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:00:44 https://catseye.tc/installation/PL-%7BGOTO%7D running in a web page at last, by the magic of the Haste compile 14:01:03 r 14:30:48 -!- unlimiter has joined. 14:34:38 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:45:02 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.5). 14:51:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shakil t * New user account 15:40:51 -!- Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:49:03 by the way, ICFP contest results will be available during the long weekend 15:49:35 "the long weekend" sounds like an event in the backstory of a post-apocalypting story 15:49:48 "Ever since the Long Weekend, we have never known peace" 15:51:06 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:54:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:54:56 mm 15:57:47 Taneb: no, I just call any weekend that is longer than 48 hours as long weekend. they last 49 hours, 72 hours, 73 hours, 96 hours, 97 hours, 120 hours, or even 144 hours. 15:58:51 OK 15:59:03 Since Saturday ends the week and Sunday begins a new week, I object to calling the unit as a whole a "weekend". 15:59:22 I object to weeks that begin on Sunday 15:59:40 49 or 73 hours is only possible near --10-28, and 120 or 144 hours is only possible near --12-25 16:00:13 cpressey: we use Monday as the start of the week, which makes more sense exactly because of this 16:01:10 Well, that's okay then. 16:01:15 wob_jonas: what's the significance of --10-28? 16:01:20 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 16:01:29 Taneb: dst switch 16:01:37 Ah, yes 16:01:40 yaeh, timezone offset switch 16:01:49 wob_jonas: don't you miss some 24k - 1 variants? 16:01:59 Also Day of the Establishment of an Independent Czecho-Slovak State 16:02:13 (I mean things 71) 16:03:48 int-e: yeah, those are possible too 16:04:42 71 hours, and now 95 hours is possible too 16:27:04 `perl -eprint 8*0.0245 16:27:05 0.196 16:27:28 Dumb idea: IRC client that lets you write comments in the logs 16:27:45 That are displayed but not actually sent 16:28:04 Taneb: irssi already does that, with the /echo command 16:28:17 wob_jonas: aha 16:28:22 useful in macros where you may want to print something other than what you send or receive 16:32:08 doesn't end up in the log, though 16:32:45 that depends on how you set up the log I think 16:32:48 there's some filtering options 16:33:05 you can also send invalid commands to the server if you want 16:33:28 i see 16:33:36 or messages to a channel that is invite-only and only you are joined 16:39:02 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:42:21 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:45:45 if you just want to write to a log you can PM yourself 16:48:54 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:08:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:13:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:21:04 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 17:24:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:26:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:29:12 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:52:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:52:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:55:02 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:18:55 `olist 1175 18:18:56 olist 1175: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:22:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:22:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:25:12 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65500&oldid=65482 * Areallycoolusername * (+345) 18:32:33 o! 18:45:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:14:33 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:17:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:24:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:28:15 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:18:17 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 20:20:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:21:11 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:24:49 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:26:07 -!- atslash has joined. 21:28:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:30:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:36:40 It's sometimes interesting to experience history backwards. NES Metroid is quite a good port of Super Metroid to a simpler hardware. Super Metroid is huge, so obviously Metroid can't have everything from it, but it does a really good job of showing as much of what we love as possible. Many things in it a really recognizable. 21:38:47 It's a pity they had to cut the MB phase 2 and 3 21:42:04 But apart from that, Tourian is a particularly faithful representation (even if, according to the story, it's a different Tourian than in Super Metroid) 22:00:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:35:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:56:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:16:49 -!- tromp has quit. 23:34:39 -!- tromp has joined. 23:35:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:38:33 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:45:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.