< 1567037003 972623 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567037408 682166 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1567038017 325560 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjgwncdxrcswopxn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1567038492 100797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zahlen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65761 5* 03A 5* (+276) 10Created page with "==Questions== What is the difference between a set and a list in Zahlen, and how to push logical/set/list values onto the stack? --~~~~" < 1567038731 979068 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsipkuhzfxlqniop JOIN :#esoteric > 1567039337 529431 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65762&oldid=65754 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10/* Log */ Nani!? I added space??? > 1567039556 708454 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unicat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65763&oldid=44887 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10 > 1567039731 137016 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65764&oldid=65618 5* 03A 5* (+290) 10 > 1567039777 348083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65765&oldid=65761 5* 03A 5* (-56) 10 < 1567040212 180378 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o < 1567040897 986939 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567040935 537093 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1567042232 515496 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1567042245 565629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Trickbrain2614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65766 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+16) 10Created page with "I love Esolangs:" > 1567042375 717024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Trickbrain2614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65767&oldid=65766 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+55) 10 < 1567042525 506699 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1567043521 246141 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567043628 343531 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567046308 533201 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:b9de:f368:e4c1:efdf QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1567046417 384940 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsipkuhzfxlqniop QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1567048565 740630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65768&oldid=60322 5* 03A 5* (+1096) 10/* Miscellaneous operators */ > 1567048600 388792 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65769&oldid=65768 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10/* Examples */ < 1567048715 288505 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567048723 981906 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567048993 977401 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1567049710 670541 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65770&oldid=65769 5* 03A 5* (+332) 10/* Digital root calculator */ Average > 1567053027 447376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pyth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65771&oldid=54848 5* 03A 5* (+124) 10 < 1567053570 894963 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :webpack > 1567058157 704158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* 10New user account > 1567058548 75724 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65772&oldid=65740 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+363) 10/* Introductions */ > 1567058709 571667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65773&oldid=65770 5* 03A 5* (+132) 10/* Examples */ > 1567058794 823640 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65774&oldid=65773 5* 03A 5* (+42) 10/* Examples */ > 1567058933 56877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07///14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65775&oldid=52040 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+86) 10/* Implementation */ < 1567059563 502363 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567062446 819094 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567062704 223433 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567064365 683335 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567066176 966193 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1567067523 864244 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567067781 985756 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567067933 847540 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1567067971 617432 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567068373 940246 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567068921 233992 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1567072354 599064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65776&oldid=65695 5* 03A 5* (-22290) 10It's all trash, I'm gonna redo it. < 1567072842 990966 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567072935 954857 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't < 1567072938 321657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't < 1567072941 285734 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast < 1567073081 785116 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas < 1567073082 373676 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast < 1567073084 323637 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas < 1567073088 829461 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas < 1567073089 330225 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast. < 1567073089 682817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas < 1567073092 416103 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't < 1567073093 682982 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas < 1567073097 206539 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, too long < 1567073159 205270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste < 1567073159 724337 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast. < 1567073164 68158 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still way too long < 1567073166 48738 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste < 1567073203 370625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1567073231 555998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :half a screen of HackEso spam < 1567073282 104157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho < 1567073282 527197 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task. < 1567073292 173030 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho < 1567073299 853865 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, still way too long < 1567073323 517910 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you figure out what the right length is and then just type that one line in < 1567073329 425793 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a denial of service attack on me < 1567073345 425962 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: then you or oerjan will complain that I edit entries outside the channel... ok wait < 1567073520 609060 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't < 1567073522 717856 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, answer, ask, class, dance, example, fast, glass, half, last, laugh, pass, past, plant, rather, staff. < 1567073576 349100 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, you're right about the smap < 1567073577 860297 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam < 1567074424 235189 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1567078016 312768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cannot < 1567078017 216422 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567078914 888962 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spam < 1567078915 816756 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/ < 1567078930 798386 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Turing < 1567078931 900502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing is what you are doing when you Tur. < 1567079007 779846 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Curry < 1567079008 679484 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079012 162221 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Haskell < 1567079013 197073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' < 1567079028 499664 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Church < 1567079029 389233 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church invented a sane model of computation, but Turing was better with marketing, so now theoretical computer science defines everything based on obsolate hardware like tape recorders. < 1567079038 456378 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Post < 1567079039 335609 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Post? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079065 732758 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Emil < 1567079066 683488 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079130 819813 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Kleene < 1567079131 717615 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kleene? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079258 133695 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? randomness < 1567079259 22453 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomness? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079261 686656 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? random < 1567079262 560839 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :random? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079276 711751 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? arity < 1567079277 683463 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :arity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079279 791217 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tuple < 1567079280 724005 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079347 577082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Scheme < 1567079348 423550 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079352 608272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Lisp < 1567079353 654427 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079364 735410 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? entropy < 1567079365 699276 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079425 535922 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? GitHub < 1567079428 641258 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :GitHub? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079466 284485 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monotonicity < 1567079467 251659 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :monotonicity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079520 467434 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? IRC < 1567079524 750744 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. < 1567079549 474780 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? transducer < 1567079550 617781 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :transducer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079570 288443 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tty < 1567079571 147564 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tty? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567079581 764183 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you're here < 1567079605 466093 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the definitions in https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/master/stdlib/cmp.robin#L147 don't seem right < 1567079608 381387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've decided to make my presence known by generating pages of HackEso spam < 1567079652 158298 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567079677 557978 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: feel free to suggest another test case < 1567079970 41814 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very very pedantically, I think they should have different names (gte? gt? lte? lt?) but I'm sure that's not what you're referring to < 1567079989 151433 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't have a problem with the names < 1567079997 338534 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is it supposed to be a signed integer comparison? < 1567080012 879512 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do I input negative integers in Robin S-expressions? < 1567080067 182280 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, and (subtract 0 10) is how you can say -10 < 1567080085 260638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: can't I just directly input -10 ? would be so much easier < 1567080091 327293 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1567080095 585961 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robin is not into "easier" < 1567080217 952590 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, then (assert (> 6 4)) (assert (> 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) < 1567080252 641048 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assert (equal? #f (> (subtract 0 1610612736) 1610612736))) < 1567080346 949199 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't complain about the name because the names similar to what lisps have, so they fit your general naming scheme < 1567080510 218174 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be problems with large numbers. < 1567080555 828454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: then either fix that or document that < 1567080607 220103 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm working on 0.4 now, I'll put it in the queue. Thanks for the report. < 1567080632 393141 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(display (subtract 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) ; it says -1073741824 < 1567080689 538940 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567080730 384641 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that seems correct < 1567080878 594513 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567080927 823886 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1610612736 :: Int32) - ((0 :: Int32) - (1610612736 :: Int32)) < 1567080929 977742 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1073741824 < 1567081100 33967 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could compare sign first, + > -, then only if signs the same do the subtract < 1567081188 828830 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PART :#esoteric < 1567081334 11488 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? unsigned < 1567081335 15628 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567081466 279428 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? signed < 1567081467 227171 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :signed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567081481 640679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp sign < 1567081483 65640 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolute value:The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands. \ color:14C03o06lor is 10a 02p04henomenon 10fr07om13 ou11t03e11r 13s02p04ace 13de03sign02e13d11 t10o13 < 1567081486 704685 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? char < 1567081487 582752 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Char is a prominent component of charcoal. < 1567081509 646391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? long < 1567081510 608478 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long is the Chinese word for dragon. < 1567082006 927091 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? float < 1567082007 776995 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :float? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567082724 807951 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1567084560 628179 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? short < 1567084561 688580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :short? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567084564 755897 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? volatile < 1567084568 766883 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :volatile? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567084575 902820 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? register < 1567084576 732104 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :register? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567084587 226010 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? const < 1567084588 72364 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :const? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1567084661 964068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this game? whoever gets the longest streak of wisdom-non-entries wins? < 1567085980 57602 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? int-e < 1567085980 925211 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. < 1567086353 925387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1567086354 840347 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? < 1567086916 896132 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bvvedowowmrxjdfu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1567086925 544916 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ncczfxvtukhbvxzj JOIN :#esoteric < 1567086949 32278 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ozigsvmrkhiaojnx QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1567086949 820686 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qgtsauqkyfhmcxmi QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1567086984 597051 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gyihruazwgiwmswh JOIN :#esoteric < 1567087002 267617 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567087032 79622 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567087120 521521 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1567087263 781886 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nyrluaouspeotanf JOIN :#esoteric < 1567087398 601528 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567088010 671990 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/develop-0.4/stdlib/cmp.robin < 1567088070 412768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can find another hole in it, I will take that as a sign that I should start learning to use QuickCheck. < 1567088219 334074 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should of course do that anyway, QuickCheck is pretty great. < 1567088361 333425 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should. < 1567088776 216278 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? color < 1567088777 401772 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​14C03o06lor is 10a 02p04henomenon 10fr07om13 ou11t03e11r 13s02p04ace 13de03sign02e13d11 t10o13 d04ri08v02e 10h12um06an04i02ty i14ns09a04ne an14d 11bri13ng f13or08th t02he n10ew05 12age14 of Cth11u09l10hu. < 1567088800 327918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctholor < 1567088881 946505 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's still not good < 1567088889 64139 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me get you the failing case < 1567089015 388878 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (assert (> 0 (subtract (subtract 0 1073741824) 1073741824))) < 1567089098 392762 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh, ok, zero < 1567089132 425536 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(who cares about zero. it's not even a real number. nobody will use it in real calculations. real calculations involve real numbers.) < 1567089228 67583 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I'll be setting up QuickCheck tomorrow, although how (or if) I'm going to integrate it with this language, I don't know < 1567089248 298538 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you call into this language from Haskell? < 1567089288 912991 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if QuickCheck really helps here though < 1567089292 868856 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first version had unbounded Integers, where none of this would be an issue, but then I was like "Oh I want this to conceivably be simple to implement in assembly" like an idiot < 1567089386 668264 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can certainly test it from Haskell, but I'd somewhat rather not have the tests be written in Haskell < 1567089396 504172 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: then add arithmetic primitives. they don't really make the interpreter more complex, nor make the language harder to learn. the number of primitives isn't really the important thing you want to optimize for. < 1567089441 160381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The number of primitives is exactly what this language optimizes for. < 1567089455 32196 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just stop working on it. < 1567089492 95310 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1567090699 959985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1567092551 328141 :webpack!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :iczero < 1567092826 480292 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1567093325 115451 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1567094655 545606 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't < 1567094657 262248 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, ask, last, answer, class, half, pass, past, path, rather, dance, example, fast, glass, laugh, plant, staff, advance, advantage, branch, cast, chance, contrast, demand, glance, grant, master, photograph, sample, task, aunt, basket, bath, command, disaster, draft, draught, enhance, grass, laughter, mask, vast. < 1567094661 930645 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :better < 1567096136 508621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567096160 558526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ?? my parents have different accents and would disagree as to the pronunciation of almost all those words, but agree on "can't" < 1567096170 871109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone actually pronounce it as "cant"? < 1567096529 704622 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, both pronunciations exist. see file:///D:/ambrus/a/refe/dict/alan-pron/CAAPR-ref.html which gives /ɑː/ as the british and /æ/ as the american pronunciation for all these words; https://english.stackexchange.com/q/276763/ ; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t < 1567096542 850158 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but not everyone pronounces all these words with the same vowel < 1567096625 586348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see, US versus British English < 1567096640 30982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all those words vary between dialects within British English, but "can't" is much more consistent < 1567096645 716184 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I once asked, if someone pronounces both "can" with a /æ/, then how do they distinguish between "can't dance" and "can dance". one person replied that they always pronounce "can" the verb with an unstressed vowel < 1567096646 297321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems weird putting them on the same list < 1567096661 668502 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not quite just US versus british. some british people use one vowel, some the other < 1567096672 879838 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a split within british pronunciation < 1567096682 670443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: on most of those words, just not (as far as I know) on "can't" < 1567096700 667340 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1567096704 959179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, even if "can" and "can't" use the same vowel, you can tell them apart by the presense of the "t" < 1567096709 340811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not silent or anything < 1567096710 787255 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible < 1567096731 648600 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's why I'm giving an example with a "t" or "d" following it, as in "can't dance" < 1567096742 74907 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case the extra "t" is hard to hear < 1567096774 832150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to leave a gap between the words, English does a lot of flowing one word into the next but t…d is one situation where you really can't < 1567096855 421837 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that sounds nice in theory, but when I actually listen to English, some speakers don't seem to put a pause, which sometimes makes "can't" followed by a "t" or "d" confusing to me < 1567096888 259341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's hard to come up with generic rules for pronouncing English < 1567096898 385916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people will do their own thing no matter what, and some accents are more or less unintelligible < 1567096909 452113 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that "can't" works differently from the other words, I just don't notice that because I don't follow all these accents < 1567096919 57871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, for pretty much any word, you can find someone who pronounces any given vowel in it as pretty much any other vowell < 1567096925 377666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is an exaggeration but not much of one) < 1567096939 781402 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1567096978 926906 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk, I have to shed my wo < 1567096984 217218 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567097005 703403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1567098285 548658 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1567098479 492263 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:TwoFiftyFive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65777&oldid=53835 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+15) 10changed signature < 1567099324 68753 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1567100435 59189 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567100460 595084 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567100531 263655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1567102007 423907 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the pronunciation of the 'a' which lets you tell apart "can dance" from "can't dance" even if the latter is slurred together. < 1567102043 867936 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they're identical for me? < 1567102185 26179 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm pronouncing things slowly, the a's are identical, but when I'm speaking very quickly, the 'a' in "can" becomes just ə or elided altogether. < 1567102203 194048 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't happen with "can't" < 1567103063 419089 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm maybe < 1567103067 562825 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard fo me to tell < 1567103071 614832 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm paying attention < 1567103537 699981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you can't tell or you can tell? < 1567103567 11045 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1567103790 431945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does the word "shan't" behave then? > 1567103893 340934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65778&oldid=61782 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+47) 10/* Music */ < 1567106236 855007 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567106260 955389 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567110725 548875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567110740 978053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "shan't" has almost died out, I think < 1567110767 931617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word "shall" is mostly only used in formal contexts nowadays, and eliding it with "not" would only happen in informal speech, so as a result the word is rarely used at all < 1567110780 36073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my best guess is that it works like "can't" but I haven't heard people say it enough to be sure < 1567110781 491503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shan't" shan't be pronounced lest you sound like an old fart. < 1567110786 727652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was once told that "shan't" was very slangy, similar to "ain't". < 1567110816 915485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, this is a bad combination (a very informal phrase containing a word that's only used in formal settings) < 1567110833 122320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shouldn't" or "mustn't" would be way more common in informal speech nowadays < 1567110836 200335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or "can't" used incorrectly) < 1567110858 871888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thou shan't pass!" just doesn't sound intimidating enough... < 1567110887 34567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it should be "thou shalt not pass"? < 1567110897 519263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hardly anyone can remember how to conjugate "thou" + verb nowadays < 1567110952 332870 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm assuming that it would still be contracted to "shan't" for lack of alternatives. < 1567110972 670217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it wouldn't be contracted because there isn't a viable contraction? < 1567110984 396085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody should look this up. < 1567110990 576843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it won't be me ;-) < 1567110997 482863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the normal grammar rules would give "thou shan'st", but that has the letters in the wrong order < 1567111014 403184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked up the conjugation of "shall" after "thou", it does indeed conjugate to "shalt" < 1567111031 200682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what did they use in the movie, hmm. < 1567111031 834628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does the s come from? < 1567111079 355118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: most "thou" conjugations end -st < 1567111088 121440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Du gehst." <-- German still has the "st". < 1567111093 231985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a few exceptions, such as "shall" going to "shalt" not "shallst" < 1567111115 529744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most? I can only think of a few. < 1567111162 591624 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1567111166 965487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia lists only six that don't; I'm not sure if that's meant to be an exhaustive list or not < 1567111172 642283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but implies that the vast majority of verbs do < 1567111179 995629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both present and perfect tense < 1567111205 755716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, it lists six irregular forms < 1567111210 682749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some of those /also/ end -st < 1567111255 95261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the regular form is to add -st or -est < 1567111265 586073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you're right, I was only thinking of the irregular forms for some reason. < 1567111321 820477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1567111334 234634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567111338 259573 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567111344 865261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book? < 1567111648 782294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, I'll just ignore shan't then < 1567111684 694990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The book has "You cannot pass!" < 1567111711 590764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spoken, not cried out loud. < 1567111736 138443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the "thou shall not pass" phrasing ended up in public consciousness, then? (I remember it specifically as containing a misconjugated verb, but maybe others remember differently/) < 1567111769 66036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, "he"/"she"/"it" still exist in modern English, and their conjugations changed from -th to -s at some point < 1567111777 305916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe "thou"'s has also changed < 1567111788 294637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do sometimes use "shall", but yes, it's rare. I don't think I use "shan't" except in quoting someone else using it (Harry Potter and the PS says, IIRC, in the first chapter, that Dudley has learnt a new word, "shan't". let me check that.) < 1567111794 268168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: movies stick < 1567111807 737769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but apparently it wasn't in the movie either < 1567111837 388162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's the sort of word that petulant children might have used in the past < 1567111845 608382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what HP says < 1567111845 950541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZZNHekEQw certainly fooled me then < 1567111860 930187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although nowadays you'd expect "won't" instead (modern children are unlikely to learn "shan't" as a word…) < 1567111869 134554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, that chapter plays in about 1980 < 1567111882 545543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book? < 1567111885 497494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1567111899 554021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "cannot" IIRC.. let me check < 1567111912 329943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's more than one English version of the movie? < 1567111913 231531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I did check, fwiw. < 1567111915 945527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be far from unheard of < 1567111934 65278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35262/where-did-you-shall-not-pass-come-from says both the movie and the book says "cannot" (Gandalf) < 1567111943 240850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe < 1567111944 754294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first Harry Potter book (and thus the corresponding film) has different names in American and British English… < 1567111979 902652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, the film has different names too? really? < 1567112023 810757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not matching the book would surely be a marketing disaster < 1567112048 752900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it? < 1567112107 749160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe ais523 is speaking in jest < 1567112135 3756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be survivable but that the people actually marketing it wouldn't want to risk it < 1567112144 567359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the books were already famous by the time the first movie was released, and "Harry Potter" is enough for recognizability < 1567112150 94440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me check < 1567112179 152319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're right, the film has different titles too < 1567112182 826385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1567112187 907733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (released in the United States, India and Pakistan as Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone) < 1567112189 12461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was its dubbing changed too? < 1567112198 580553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that they recorded the relevant lines multiple times < 1567112201 298644 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask me about names in the Neverending Story. :P < 1567112212 59311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't have been a noticeable amount of extra work for the actors < 1567112231 433879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Did you read _Jim Knopf_? < 1567112248 349974 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about _Momo_? < 1567112269 476239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bastian = Bastian. Atreju = Atreyu. Xayide = Xayeede. Engywuck = Engywook. Fuchur = Falkor. It makes sense, but it did surprise me a lot when I first saw these...) < 1567112290 817258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I have not read Jim Knopf. I only know Momo in german. < 1567112327 769239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't read Jim Knopf?! < 1567112337 572567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see the recent movie? I have it on Blu-Ray. < 1567112346 106155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1567112347 36309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't have a Blu-Ray reader so I haven't seen it. < 1567112383 89449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And which of those three books is "the recent movie" based on?) < 1567112418 36609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Because the American title was different, all scenes that mention the philosopher's stone by name had to be re-shot, once with the actors saying "philosopher's" and once with "sorcerer's". < 1567112444 587590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jim Knopf. < 1567112456 411683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was told that most big budget popular movies have separate dubbings for continental french and canadian french, as well as for european portugese and brazilian portugese; but I thought most of them don't have multiple english dubs. < 1567112463 49356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3072732/ < 1567112490 640854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's different in text of course, which is easier to change, eg. it's cheap for some software to have separate american vs british english text < 1567112494 865621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's mostly just because it'd be a waste, Brits are used to seeing American English in films < 1567112517 20573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but the HP movies have mostly british characters < 1567112531 19058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the situation with computer games is weird, many computer game manufacturers have separate European and American translation teams < 1567112533 233998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens with films like that? < 1567112547 834220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often you get separate British English and American English translations < 1567112582 67583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes the American English translation is reused to save time, e.g. if they want to get a release out in the UK more quickly < 1567112582 806946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :video games are different, because they're made with most of the dialog in japanese originally, as opposed to films where most of the dialog is in english originally < 1567112594 58833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leads to translation inconsistencies between a game and its sequel sometimes < 1567112595 788012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1567112603 67228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because one is the British English version, one is the American English version) < 1567112605 836056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are those translations of the text of the video game, or of the voice acting or dubbing of the video game? < 1567112618 411399 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you should make that into a wisdom entry < 1567112627 913493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: normally text < 1567112633 190660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't play a whole lot of games that have voice acting < 1567112642 583643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it says more about the video games that you play than about video games in general) < 1567112677 915642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, two out of the three largest console manufacturers are Japanese, and this thus affects all their first-party games < 1567112685 682285 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays a lot of contemporary click&point adventures, and most of those have voice acting
< 1567112705 401691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there a lot of contemporary click⅋point adventures? < 1567112713 642593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, ais523: yes, the bias comes from how I see people play a lot of nintendo games < 1567112714 43206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm. You may have a point there. I'm focused on the PC platform. < 1567112742 903439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though nintendo games are less popular here in europe (still quite popular, mind you), I see them a lot on the internet < 1567112759 288693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are a lot of contemporary point&click adventures < 1567112775 203511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think any of them use linear logic of the kind you alluded to < 1567112778 859940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are a few? I thought they were pretty rare nowadays. < 1567112811 106687 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you get into game mechanics where items sometimes get used up? hmm. there's an opportunity to overthink this here, certainly.) < 1567112813 186833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how do you typo an upside-down ampersand? I have a huge number of characters on my keyboard but don't know how to type that one < 1567112852 423388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that was a typo < 1567112856 111775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, but I like to imagine a world in which I do. < 1567112877 302460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :First I pressed & &, and it didn't do anything, but I was kind of hoping it would. < 1567112891 556827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the first thing I tried too :-D < 1567112893 438264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then I just inserted it. < 1567112900 856693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: two ampersands? why not an ampersand and a grave accent? < 1567112915 104052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one minute of searching in gucharmap: ⅋ < 1567112915 998742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's by analogy with ¿ and ¡ < 1567112943 755476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC 1345, the most complete repository of compose sequences I know of (although it disagrees with X on some issues), doesn't have a compose sequence for ⅋ < 1567112957 682433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the best Unicode searcher. It's very convenient. < 1567112958 979564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⅋ < 1567112959 484748 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+214B TURNED AMPERSAND] < 1567113023 107120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that my taste in games is focused heavily on gameplay over other factors, also I can't easily download large games or run those with DRM on my computer (because DRM normally requires an Internet connection) < 1567113042 958760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these considerations combined mean that voice acting is very unlikely to be present in a game I play < 1567113066 827843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, there is some amount of voice acting in some games I play, but it typically implies that I'll own a physical version (and it may well be a console game) < 1567113110 27382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…the other impressive thing about RFC 1345 is that it is about non-ASCII character sets and compose sequences, yet is written entirely in ASCII < 1567113124 990334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main reason for defining all the compose sequences was to make it possible to readably write the rest of the document < 1567113140 57454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1345.html doesn't seem to mention the upside down ampersand < 1567113156 768918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, ais523 looked it up already < 1567113317 726356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my Unicode selector is already the best, but it's kind of cobbled together out of multiple pieces which isn't ideal. < 1567113329 33493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write an even better Unicode selector thing. < 1567113339 706831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…actually no, this isn't ASCII, is it? it's /actually/ ISO646 < 1567113347 266529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were ASCII it'd be able to use things like square brackets literally < 1567113373 726166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trouble is that rendering Unicode text is really hard. < 1567113456 90014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's pretty much only one free library for Unicode text layout, and it has some problems. < 1567113474 684978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the author/maintainer seems to be a jerk about any criticisms of it. < 1567113519 787212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, theoretically libuncursed2 is planned to do Unicode text /layout/ (although not rendering, it just works out where to put the characters) < 1567113549 369459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, layout is the hard part. < 1567113598 565128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell there's no specification for how to do it or anything like that. < 1567113631 116420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Librarie that do it just get a bunch of language-specific implementations from people who speak particular languages. < 1567113640 510575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main complexities are a) grapheme clustering, which definitely is specified; b) bidirectional layout, which I think is specified but haven't checked < 1567113649 244360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's libuncursed2? < 1567113652 109659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but libuncursed2 is monospace only < 1567113663 619766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a curses replacement that I was working on, then stopped < 1567113688 359931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, monospace-only is probably easier. < 1567113690 529636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so was libuncursed1, for that matter; libuncursed2 is meant to have a less ridiculous API, though, whereas libuncursed1's was almost curses-compatible) < 1567113701 728166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to lay out general text. < 1567113736 705789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want a library that implements the necessary algorithms and doesn't insist on taking over the world with regard to memory management or whatever. < 1567113743 54288 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: pango is probably one of the very few libraries that tries to tackle all its complexity, yes < 1567113746 937609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell why harfbuzz wants to reference-count everything as its only API. < 1567113751 601958 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pango just uses harfbuzz, right? < 1567113756 294492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1567113763 257985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might < 1567113768 846384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it uses underneath, I just use its api < 1567113781 785546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has dependencies < 1567113802 766159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to do lots of magic about accessing fonts installed on the system < 1567113815 89255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I don't want magic. < 1567113842 322194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it has lots of user-configurable knobs, so I think you can turn whatever magic you don't want off < 1567113859 154240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see how you want to do general text layout without magic, unless you know a lot about every script there is in unicode < 1567113860 520563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be able to put glyphs in a font atlas thing and have them rendered on the GPU anyway. < 1567113873 186035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or every script there is in existing fonts, rather < 1567113892 102862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably given a particular string I can figure out which glyphs are necessary for rendering it. < 1567113903 598192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, that's pango's job < 1567113910 581992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :figuring out which glyphs to render and where exactly < 1567113912 598009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bit more < 1567113937 592201 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can use pango with multiple different frontends that actually draw the glyphs there if you want to render them, including on GPU < 1567113952 49608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want libraries that don't ever call malloc. < 1567113959 50338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a pretty reasonable request. < 1567113977 467711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that... may be hard in this case < 1567113992 140097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1567114003 313411 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567114013 744407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want the same library to do both, right? help with text layout and never call malloc that is < 1567114046 270309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want any library to call malloc. That doesn't seem that unreasonable. < 1567114048 104758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably make a version that calls your own malloc-like functions if you really need to < 1567114084 948709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely don't want libraries to do reference counting. That's just ridiculous. < 1567114085 74364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it might be hard because you may have to go down to all dependencies including gobject < 1567114106 325146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: again, that will be hard with the current status of these libraries < 1567114143 288486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for rendering layout, that seems an unreasonable requirement to me. surely you want them to cache the information they learned out about fonts and stuff, and they need refcounting for that < 1567114185 587360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libuncursed, at least, inherently needs memory from somewhere; what would be your suggested API for that? < 1567114209 74867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that the intended API uses nothing but Unicode strings and 32-bit integers to make it easy to wrap from arbitrary languages) < 1567114221 187983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I could pass in some amount of memory that it requests. < 1567114222 734591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling malloc seems like the obvious method < 1567114267 682677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main thing I want is a clear understanding of the memory usage and allocation profile of my program. < 1567114280 727062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I for one am fine with libraries like this doing malloc and some reference counting < 1567114323 76053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is it OK if all the routines that can allocate memory have a name clearly indicating that? < 1567114337 612521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can still do that with malloc, you can probably replace malloc < 1567114380 298986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be better, and it would also be better if I can pass in an allocator rather than it calling the global malloc. < 1567114402 389327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, there are some functions where I want to make sure that they don't malloc, but for anything like text layout or rendering, using malloc is fine for me, < 1567114422 820271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it can clean up after itself of course, doesn't leak memory like crazy < 1567114699 358731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for english pronunciation, article http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html is fresh out from the press < 1567114716 90768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it's written in English? < 1567114725 682435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes sense given its topic < 1567114761 577528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: David alwasy writes some articles in English, it's just less common than it used to be in the early years of his blog < 1567114770 685586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the blog is very old, so some change is not surprising) < 1567114824 461752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html is new and also in English < 1567114900 563721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"always writes some articles in English" is a modal logic thing? < 1567114908 484266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"always eventually", I guess. < 1567114998 9901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html is in french and is about english language < 1567115031 668875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1567115043 265163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567115160 673898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these days David keeps writing more and more stuff on Twitter rather than on the blog, and some of that is always in English too < 1567115698 434010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own answers: warn=worn; fairy≠ferry; spear it≠spirit; fire≠far; law=lore; ant?=aunt ("aunt" varies); full≠fool; sun=son; horse=hoarse; pain=pane; hire?=higher (both vary); threw=through; luck≠look; would=wood; poor≠pure; brewed=brood; steering≠stirring; shed≠shared; morning=mourning; tower≠tyre ("tire" doesn't exist in en_GB); farm≠form; sat≠set; dolly≠Dali; hit≠heat; bury=berry; putt≠put; nose=knows; tower≠tar; < 1567115699 957418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :earn=urn; [h]urry≠[f]urry; [n]earer≠[m]irror; stow≠store; poor=pour; hairy≠Harry; fir=fur; for=four; surely≠Shirley; cot≠caught; meet=meat; cap≠cup < 1567115765 940605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does "tire" not exists even as an uncommon verb? < 1567115778 614107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh yes, I missed the verb possibility < 1567115798 689644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly only used as "tired" but does exist as a verb on its own < 1567115842 296049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "I tire of this farce!" when Jabba drops Oola into the Rancor pit in Darths & Droids http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1210.html < 1567115862 921846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: If the library wants to do caching that seems fine, but surely it should have a lower-level interface where I can control the caching? < 1567115899 345688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know the details. you can probably control at least as much to be able to ask to purge the cashes < 1567115905 64825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cash/cach/ < 1567115937 799333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check the manual at https://developer.gnome.org/pango/unstable/ if you want, or a local copy < 1567115978 604926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I definitely don't want to use glib. < 1567115985 957678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time I've tried to use a glib thing it's been miserable. < 1567116013 148959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think pango itself doesn't use glib, only cairo does < 1567116019 973055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pango uses gobject, which is sort of related < 1567116023 43121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure of this < 1567116042 32223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice I use pango+cairo together (pango has an easy api for that), so it uses glib < 1567116050 964721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only internally, it doesn't expose that < 1567116084 895893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does pango expose gobject I think < 1567116113 617113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't bother me this way < 1567116120 737556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would bother me if it was exposed of course < 1567116218 995692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. pango uses the type int to give width, not gint < 1567117257 345212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my three wrong answers for the poll (despite that no answers are wrong) are for horse, son, and mourning < 1567117273 300699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand how "o" works in English pronunciation < 1567117280 216244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time I pronounce it randomly < 1567117309 319119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually matches the vowel in "pot" but sometimes it just means something else, seemingly at random < 1567117568 215453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oo" and "ou" confuse me, because I always try to pronounce them as long u (or sometimes short U for ou) when stressed < 1567117594 331968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a lot of words where it's pronounce as some of the o vowels, but I can never remember which ones < 1567117617 501271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know that "poor" and "pour" are strange, and I pronounce those inconsistently < 1567117640 196881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I do know some frequent words like "four" have long o < 1567117659 141327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still in many words, it confuses me, and that's what got me in "mourning" < 1567117713 593266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! you must have tried to pronounce it like "hour" < 1567117725 31021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to figure out what the other viable reading of the word was < 1567117727 115745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also know that "your" and "you're" has long o, despite that you has U < 1567117751 389875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good guideline is that an r after a vowel almost always affects how the vowel is pronounced < 1567117753 817470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for "horse", I thought it has a _short_ o, and I'm still surprised that it doesn't < 1567117759 179615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the r itself may end up silent < 1567117780 986816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"horse" doesn't really have an "o" at all, the vowel is "or" < 1567117819 134604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are probably exceptions to how "or" is pronounced because there are exceptions to everything, but it's one of the more reliably pronounced out of the various English vowel spellings < 1567117823 393841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tour" < 1567117858 761998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"t" + "or" < 1567117877 970926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"our" is ambiguous, it can either be pronounced like "or" or else more like "ower" < 1567117900 142910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"son" is the worse, because I have heared that word enough, so I should have known how it's pronounce < 1567117931 169077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "horse" I can say that I just don't care about them so I don't listen to texts that talk about horses < 1567117940 423606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a reasonable excuse < 1567117960 710569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, from my point of view "son" is irregular so it's easy to imagine someone guessing that wrong < 1567117975 694284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, lots of words are irregular, that's sort of the problem < 1567117985 891693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "horse" is regular (apart from the e at the end) so that's more of a surprise < 1567118001 894482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think the e at the end is needed because "hors" is an imported French word and thus has a silent s) < 1567118103 750208 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1567118189 298496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hungarian is so much easier, because there used to be fewer words with irregular spelling. these days there are somewhat more because some people aren't willing to write a lot of english words in their english spelling even long after they're definitely naturalized. "ímél" is the most annoying to me, because so many people still write it as "email" or "e-mail" < 1567118192 988668 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utfiwapcuqlbsssj JOIN :#esoteric < 1567118203 183987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "fájl" vs "file" is older < 1567118230 857622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily people get "fájl" right more often because they see it in the localized windows UI menubars < 1567118339 863516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Hungarian respelled all loanwords in Hungarian spelling according to their pronunciation? < 1567118355 920394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :among the words that aren't neologisms, the more famous ones that have irregular spelling or may have irregular spelling in some dialects are "kisebb", "egy", "köpeny", "szőlő", "tízes", "húszas", and there's a few more than I forgot < 1567118383 229435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although áj is a bit of a weird way to spell English long i < 1567118384 895386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus there are a few interjections that don't follow the normal phonology rules so their transcription is odd < 1567118479 573558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: loanwords are supposed to be respelled if they've become a regular part of the language and they're not proper nouns; but they are kept in the original spelling while they're rare and just ad-hoc borrowed, as long as it's borrowed from a language usually written in latin script (including serbian) < 1567118558 349790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't find "áj" weird for spelling the english long i. it corresponds closely to the sound. < 1567118587 130410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I find it hard to understand what j does in Hungarian < 1567118806 14409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in this case I think of it as a semi-vowel that forms a glide with the previous vowel. hungarian has those only _after_ a vowel, not before, which is why people with hungarian accents like me pronounce some english w-words strange. < 1567118865 154072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an analogous u semi-vowel in hungarian too, but it's pretty rare, basically only occurs in the word "autó" and related words, and even then the pronunciation is variable, plus transcribed ancient greek words with a vowel + u < 1567118886 482438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vowel other than omikron) + u < 1567118915 981796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC Hungarian "ly" is a sound that doesn't exist in English < 1567118927 300285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ly" is pronounced the same as "j" < 1567118951 502818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't see how that would work < 1567119010 76998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except in a few old family names that spell "i" as "y", such as Thököly) < 1567119029 702712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as Hungarian "j" or English "j"? < 1567119049 190307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought English "j" was close to Hungarian "gy" (not identical, but close enough to be mutually intelligible) < 1567119073 604371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in Hungarian "j" < 1567119085 598108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungarian "j" and Hungarian "ly" are pronounced the same < 1567119105 55685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's basically the same sound as the english "y" when it's a consonant, such as in "yet" and "yellow" < 1567119114 856117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's a bit of a surprise < 1567119119 902440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know which one to spell words with? < 1567119143 480816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rote memorization, just like in english? < 1567119143 785934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" < 1567119149 768317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, rote memorization < 1567119163 71121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my banes were "muszáj" and "papagáj" < 1567119231 220520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few rules that help: grammatical suffixes never have "ly" but often have "j", and "ly" doesn't occur at the start of a word excet in "lyuk" and its derivatives < 1567119237 531124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" ← because that would modify the vowel rather than being a consonant < 1567119246 358156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also hints in that "ly" is rarer than "j", and "ly" is rare before a consonant < 1567119353 793371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do have to learn a long list of words with "ly" and "j" in school, eg. common ones like "folyik, lyuk", and rare ones that teachers like eg. "gólya, sirály, karvaly, papagáj" (four birds), "gálya, bója", < 1567119375 58414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even obscure words like "zsöllye" which I never heard or read anyone use except in the context of learning the spelling < 1567119545 831835 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"zsöllye" means the ordinary seats in a theatre, as opposed to the seats in boxes, but everyone just calls them "szék" which means chair < 1567119560 726658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need a special word for them? < 1567119589 795121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :special words for types of birds, that I can understand < 1567119613 682829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are way more than the four I listed that we had to learn < 1567120953 216559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "bója" is a third one that I can call my bane, besides "muszáj" and "papagáj". all three sound like they should be spelled with "ly", but they aren't < 1567121013 666658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these days I think I know all three of them, and all other words < 1567121110 941045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"j" vs "ly" in all other words that is, not the spelling of all other words in general < 1567121406 646386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also all newly created words use "j" except where the "ly" is taken from a word they're derived from, so "ly" is a finite list, though there are obscure obsolate words on that list that I may not know < 1567121408 977356 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1567121471 993854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know even _some_ obscure words with "ly" that I never use and aren't even sure in the meaning, like "csobolyó" and "süly" and "kesely" < 1567121817 448950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1567121885 31892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What about the smaller case of one function that returns variable-size data? < 1567121901 778411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are many options other than a malloc call and most of them are better. < 1567121924 81129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the API was designed so that all possible string-returning functions return data that exists literally as part of the executable, so it's just pointers to static strings < 1567121945 762521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty major restriction but for something like libuncursed2 it may be doable < 1567121990 873118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which API? < 1567121993 540706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in general. < 1567122013 525673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libuncursed2's < 1567122023 275818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general there is probably no good cross-language solution < 1567122048 163916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. Say in C. < 1567122088 330981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :count-and-copy is a solution that is capable of being good in some circumstances and is likely to be portable cross-language < 1567122109 882038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you call to ask how much space to reserve, then provide memory of that size for the called function to copy the return value into) < 1567122126 335844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some functions it doesn't work as you have to do the same calculations twice < 1567122126 580591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can result in some duplicated work unfortunately. < 1567122130 902905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1567122145 258108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing you can do is turn your function into a coroutine/state machine that can suspend when it needs more memory. < 1567122155 236255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is kind of similar to a malloc call (but more flexible). < 1567122233 198886 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could pass a large buffer into the function and have it tell you how much it used. < 1567122273 431125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "that doesn't work because you need memory to record your current state to be able to return it" < 1567122287 626967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I realised that it suspends mid-calculation as soon as it runs out of memory < 1567122307 949201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, you give it a "stack frame" struct that it can record its current state in. < 1567122332 195289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm not sure it's been tried before? < 1567122343 378593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coroutines + memory allocation as two problems that are each used to solve the other < 1567122534 796772 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :webpack < 1567122672 889851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you're implementing sprintf, which returns a variable-size output. < 1567122701 905411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal thing to do is to call it twice to get the length the first time. < 1567122737 103356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you're implementing printf using sprintf, you don't even want to allocate a full-size buffer. You want to sprintf to a fixed-size buffer until it's full, then flush it, and repeat until you're done. < 1567122761 419613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ideally you want a coroutine that yields a stream of characters < 1567122765 84746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The coroutine formulation seems the most natural for that sort of thing. It's not even about allocation in that case because you never want the full string in memory. < 1567122787 590693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow < 1567122795 929020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you really have hit on an important discovery here < 1567122800 211189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think yielding a character at a time isn't really what you want (except maybe conceptually). < 1567122821 71322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just want to give it a buffer and have it fill the buffer as much as it can based on its current state. < 1567122835 440111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "yield…stream" would ideally have some sort of buffering, but maybe it could exist at a higher level somehow? < 1567122842 805538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than being built into the source code of the functions in question < 1567122917 450386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, these are details you can figure out in some reasonable way. The main point is the way flow control should happen. < 1567122927 50159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control flow! < 1567122931 824033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always get it wrong. < 1567123012 71272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ironically, this actually /is/ a flow control problem (in the sense of working out how much should be buffered before sending it)