00:03:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:10:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:20:17 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:28:12 [[Talk:Zahlen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65761 * A * (+276) Created page with "==Questions== What is the difference between a set and a list in Zahlen, and how to push logical/set/list values onto the stack? --~~~~" 00:32:11 -!- xkapastel has joined. 00:42:17 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65762&oldid=65754 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Log */ Nani!? I added space??? 00:45:56 [[Unicat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65763&oldid=44887 * Dtuser1337 * (+18) 00:48:51 [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65764&oldid=65618 * A * (+290) 00:49:37 [[Talk:Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65765&oldid=65761 * A * (-56) 00:56:52 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 01:08:17 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:55 -!- HackEso has joined. 01:30:32 -!- tromp has joined. 01:30:45 [[User:Trickbrain26]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65766 * Trickbrain26 * (+16) Created page with "I love Esolangs:" 01:32:55 [[User:Trickbrain26]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65767&oldid=65766 * Trickbrain26 * (+55) 01:35:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:52:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:53:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:38:28 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:40:17 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:16:05 [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65768&oldid=60322 * A * (+1096) /* Miscellaneous operators */ 03:16:40 [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65769&oldid=65768 * A * (+30) /* Examples */ 03:18:35 -!- adu has joined. 03:18:43 -!- tromp has joined. 03:23:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:35:10 [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65770&oldid=65769 * A * (+332) /* Digital root calculator */ Average 04:30:27 [[Pyth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65771&oldid=54848 * A * (+124) 04:39:30 -!- iczero has changed nick to webpack. 05:55:57 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CarlosLuna * New user account 06:02:28 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65772&oldid=65740 * CarlosLuna * (+363) /* Introductions */ 06:05:09 [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65773&oldid=65770 * A * (+132) /* Examples */ 06:06:34 [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65774&oldid=65773 * A * (+42) /* Examples */ 06:08:53 [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65775&oldid=52040 * CarlosLuna * (+86) /* Implementation */ 06:19:23 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 07:07:26 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 07:11:44 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:39:25 -!- tromp has joined. 08:09:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:32:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:36:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:38:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:39:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:46:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:55:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:52:34 [[Salt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65776&oldid=65695 * A * (-22290) It's all trash, I'm gonna redo it. 10:00:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:02:15 can't 10:02:18 `? can't 10:02:21 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast 10:04:41 `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas 10:04:42 k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast 10:04:44 Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas 10:04:48 `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas 10:04:49 k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast. 10:04:49 Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas 10:04:52 `? can't 10:04:53 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas 10:04:57 hmm, too long 10:05:59 `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste 10:05:59 r, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast. 10:06:04 still way too long 10:06:06 Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste 10:06:43 help 10:07:11 half a screen of HackEso spam 10:08:02 `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho 10:08:02 tograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task. 10:08:12 Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho 10:08:19 nah, still way too long 10:08:43 can't you figure out what the right length is and then just type that one line in 10:08:49 this is a denial of service attack on me 10:09:05 shachaf: then you or oerjan will complain that I edit entries outside the channel... ok wait 10:12:00 `? can't 10:12:02 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, answer, ask, class, dance, example, fast, glass, half, last, laugh, pass, past, plant, rather, staff. 10:12:56 sorry, you're right about the smap 10:12:57 spam 10:27:04 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:26:56 `? cannot 11:26:57 cannot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:41:54 `? spam 11:41:55 Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/ 11:42:10 `? Turing 11:42:11 Turing is what you are doing when you Tur. 11:43:27 `? Curry 11:43:28 Curry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:43:32 `? Haskell 11:43:33 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 11:43:48 `? Church 11:43:49 Church invented a sane model of computation, but Turing was better with marketing, so now theoretical computer science defines everything based on obsolate hardware like tape recorders. 11:43:58 `? Post 11:43:59 Post? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:44:25 `? Emil 11:44:26 Emil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:45:30 `? Kleene 11:45:31 Kleene? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:47:38 `? randomness 11:47:39 randomness? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:47:41 `? random 11:47:42 random? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:47:56 `? arity 11:47:57 arity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:47:59 `? tuple 11:48:00 tuple? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:49:07 `? Scheme 11:49:08 Scheme? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:49:12 `? Lisp 11:49:13 Lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:49:24 `? entropy 11:49:25 entropy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:50:25 `? GitHub 11:50:28 GitHub? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:51:06 `? monotonicity 11:51:07 monotonicity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:52:00 `? IRC 11:52:04 IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. 11:52:29 `? transducer 11:52:30 transducer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:52:50 `? tty 11:52:51 tty? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:53:01 cpressey, you're here 11:53:25 cpressey: the definitions in https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/master/stdlib/cmp.robin#L147 don't seem right 11:53:28 Yes, I've decided to make my presence known by generating pages of HackEso spam 11:54:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:54:37 wob_jonas: feel free to suggest another test case 11:59:30 very very pedantically, I think they should have different names (gte? gt? lte? lt?) but I'm sure that's not what you're referring to 11:59:49 cpressey: I don't have a problem with the names 11:59:57 cpressey: is it supposed to be a signed integer comparison? 12:00:12 and how do I input negative integers in Robin S-expressions? 12:01:07 wob_jonas: yes, and (subtract 0 10) is how you can say -10 12:01:25 cpressey: can't I just directly input -10 ? would be so much easier 12:01:31 oh well 12:01:35 Robin is not into "easier" 12:03:37 anyway, then (assert (> 6 4)) (assert (> 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) 12:04:12 (assert (equal? #f (> (subtract 0 1610612736) 1610612736))) 12:05:46 I don't complain about the name because the names similar to what lisps have, so they fit your general naming scheme 12:08:30 There may be problems with large numbers. 12:09:15 cpressey: then either fix that or document that 12:10:07 wob_jonas: I'm working on 0.4 now, I'll put it in the queue. Thanks for the report. 12:10:32 (display (subtract 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) ; it says -1073741824 12:11:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:12:10 ^ that seems correct 12:14:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:15:27 > (1610612736 :: Int32) - ((0 :: Int32) - (1610612736 :: Int32)) 12:15:29 -1073741824 12:18:20 I guess it could compare sign first, + > -, then only if signs the same do the subtract 12:19:48 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 12:22:14 `? unsigned 12:22:15 unsigned? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:24:26 `? signed 12:24:27 signed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:24:41 `grwp sign 12:24:43 absolute value:The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands. \ color:Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to 12:24:46 `? char 12:24:47 Char is a prominent component of charcoal. 12:25:09 `? long 12:25:10 Long is the Chinese word for dragon. 12:33:26 `? float 12:33:27 float? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:45:24 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 13:16:00 `? short 13:16:01 short? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:16:04 `? volatile 13:16:08 volatile? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:16:15 `? register 13:16:16 register? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:16:27 `? const 13:16:28 const? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:17:41 what's this game? whoever gets the longest streak of wisdom-non-entries wins? 13:39:40 `? int-e 13:39:40 int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. 13:45:53 `? wisdom 13:45:54 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 13:55:16 -!- wmww has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:55:25 -!- wmww has joined. 13:55:49 -!- ivzem[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:55:49 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:56:24 -!- ivzem[m] has joined. 13:56:42 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:57:12 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:58:40 -!- ineiros has joined. 14:01:03 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 14:03:18 -!- fungot has joined. 14:13:30 wob_jonas: https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/develop-0.4/stdlib/cmp.robin 14:14:30 If you can find another hole in it, I will take that as a sign that I should start learning to use QuickCheck. 14:16:59 You should of course do that anyway, QuickCheck is pretty great. 14:19:21 I should. 14:26:16 `? color 14:26:17 ​Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. 14:26:40 ctholor 14:28:01 cpressey: that's still not good 14:28:09 let me get you the failing case 14:30:15 cpressey: (assert (> 0 (subtract (subtract 0 1073741824) 1073741824))) 14:31:38 sigh, ok, zero 14:32:12 (who cares about zero. it's not even a real number. nobody will use it in real calculations. real calculations involve real numbers.) 14:33:48 Well, I guess I'll be setting up QuickCheck tomorrow, although how (or if) I'm going to integrate it with this language, I don't know 14:34:08 can't you call into this language from Haskell? 14:34:48 I'm not sure if QuickCheck really helps here though 14:34:52 The first version had unbounded Integers, where none of this would be an issue, but then I was like "Oh I want this to conceivably be simple to implement in assembly" like an idiot 14:36:26 I can certainly test it from Haskell, but I'd somewhat rather not have the tests be written in Haskell 14:36:36 cpressey: then add arithmetic primitives. they don't really make the interpreter more complex, nor make the language harder to learn. the number of primitives isn't really the important thing you want to optimize for. 14:37:21 The number of primitives is exactly what this language optimizes for. 14:37:35 I could just stop working on it. 14:38:12 :-( 14:58:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 15:29:11 -!- webpack has changed nick to iczero. 15:33:46 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:42:05 -!- atslash has joined. 16:04:15 `? can't 16:04:17 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, ask, last, answer, class, half, pass, past, path, rather, dance, example, fast, glass, laugh, plant, staff, advance, advantage, branch, cast, chance, contrast, demand, glance, grant, master, photograph, sample, task, aunt, basket, bath, command, disaster, draft, draught, enhance, grass, laughter, mask, vast. 16:04:21 better 16:28:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:29:20 wob_jonas: ?? my parents have different accents and would disagree as to the pronunciation of almost all those words, but agree on "can't" 16:29:30 does anyone actually pronounce it as "cant"? 16:35:29 ais523: yes, both pronunciations exist. see file:///D:/ambrus/a/refe/dict/alan-pron/CAAPR-ref.html which gives /ɑː/ as the british and /æ/ as the american pronunciation for all these words; https://english.stackexchange.com/q/276763/ ; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t 16:35:42 ais523: but not everyone pronounces all these words with the same vowel 16:37:05 oh, I see, US versus British English 16:37:20 almost all those words vary between dialects within British English, but "can't" is much more consistent 16:37:25 ais523: I once asked, if someone pronounces both "can" with a /æ/, then how do they distinguish between "can't dance" and "can dance". one person replied that they always pronounce "can" the verb with an unstressed vowel 16:37:26 so it seems weird putting them on the same list 16:37:41 ais523: it's not quite just US versus british. some british people use one vowel, some the other 16:37:52 there's a split within british pronunciation 16:38:02 wob_jonas: on most of those words, just not (as far as I know) on "can't" 16:38:20 hmm 16:38:24 fwiw, even if "can" and "can't" use the same vowel, you can tell them apart by the presense of the "t" 16:38:29 which is not silent or anything 16:38:30 possible 16:38:51 ais523: that's why I'm giving an example with a "t" or "d" following it, as in "can't dance" 16:39:02 in which case the extra "t" is hard to hear 16:39:34 you'd have to leave a gap between the words, English does a lot of flowing one word into the next but t…d is one situation where you really can't 16:40:55 ais523: that sounds nice in theory, but when I actually listen to English, some speakers don't seem to put a pause, which sometimes makes "can't" followed by a "t" or "d" confusing to me 16:41:28 well, it's hard to come up with generic rules for pronouncing English 16:41:38 people will do their own thing no matter what, and some accents are more or less unintelligible 16:41:49 it's possible that "can't" works differently from the other words, I just don't notice that because I don't follow all these accents 16:41:59 generally speaking, for pretty much any word, you can find someone who pronounces any given vowel in it as pretty much any other vowell 16:42:05 (this is an exaggeration but not much of one) 16:42:19 yeah 16:42:58 afk, I have to shed my wo 16:43:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:43:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:04:45 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:07:59 [[Talk:TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65777&oldid=53835 * SoundOfScripting * (+15) changed signature 17:22:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:40:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:41:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:42:11 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:06:47 It's the pronunciation of the 'a' which lets you tell apart "can dance" from "can't dance" even if the latter is slurred together. 18:07:23 i think they're identical for me? 18:09:45 If I'm pronouncing things slowly, the a's are identical, but when I'm speaking very quickly, the 'a' in "can" becomes just ə or elided altogether. 18:10:03 But that doesn't happen with "can't" 18:24:23 mm maybe 18:24:27 hard fo me to tell 18:24:31 when i'm paying attention 18:32:17 kmc: you can't tell or you can tell? 18:32:47 :P 18:36:30 ais523: how does the word "shan't" behave then? 18:38:13 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65778&oldid=61782 * InfiniteDonuts * (+47) /* Music */ 19:17:16 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:17:40 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 20:32:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:32:20 b_jonas: "shan't" has almost died out, I think 20:32:47 the word "shall" is mostly only used in formal contexts nowadays, and eliding it with "not" would only happen in informal speech, so as a result the word is rarely used at all 20:33:00 my best guess is that it works like "can't" but I haven't heard people say it enough to be sure 20:33:01 "Shan't" shan't be pronounced lest you sound like an old fart. 20:33:06 I was once told that "shan't" was very slangy, similar to "ain't". 20:33:36 shachaf: right, this is a bad combination (a very informal phrase containing a word that's only used in formal settings) 20:33:53 "shouldn't" or "mustn't" would be way more common in informal speech nowadays 20:33:56 (or "can't" used incorrectly) 20:34:18 "Thou shan't pass!" just doesn't sound intimidating enough... 20:34:47 surely it should be "thou shalt not pass"? 20:34:57 although hardly anyone can remember how to conjugate "thou" + verb nowadays 20:35:52 ais523: I'm assuming that it would still be contracted to "shan't" for lack of alternatives. 20:36:12 maybe it wouldn't be contracted because there isn't a viable contraction? 20:36:24 Somebody should look this up. 20:36:30 But it won't be me ;-) 20:36:37 I guess the normal grammar rules would give "thou shan'st", but that has the letters in the wrong order 20:36:54 I looked up the conjugation of "shall" after "thou", it does indeed conjugate to "shalt" 20:37:11 So what did they use in the movie, hmm. 20:37:11 Where does the s come from? 20:37:59 shachaf: most "thou" conjugations end -st 20:38:08 "Du gehst." <-- German still has the "st". 20:38:13 but there are a few exceptions, such as "shall" going to "shalt" not "shallst" 20:38:35 Most? I can only think of a few. 20:39:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:39:26 Wikipedia lists only six that don't; I'm not sure if that's meant to be an exhaustive list or not 20:39:32 but implies that the vast majority of verbs do 20:39:39 in both present and perfect tense 20:40:05 wait, no, it lists six irregular forms 20:40:10 but some of those /also/ end -st 20:40:55 the regular form is to add -st or -est 20:41:05 Ah, you're right, I was only thinking of the irregular forms for some reason. 20:42:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 20:42:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:42:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:42:24 Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book? 20:47:28 ais523: ok, I'll just ignore shan't then 20:48:04 The book has "You cannot pass!" 20:48:31 Spoken, not cried out loud. 20:48:56 I wonder how the "thou shall not pass" phrasing ended up in public consciousness, then? (I remember it specifically as containing a misconjugated verb, but maybe others remember differently/) 20:49:29 that said, "he"/"she"/"it" still exist in modern English, and their conjugations changed from -th to -s at some point 20:49:37 so maybe "thou"'s has also changed 20:49:48 I do sometimes use "shall", but yes, it's rare. I don't think I use "shan't" except in quoting someone else using it (Harry Potter and the PS says, IIRC, in the first chapter, that Dudley has learnt a new word, "shan't". let me check that.) 20:49:54 ais523: movies stick 20:50:07 int-e: but apparently it wasn't in the movie either 20:50:37 b_jonas: it's the sort of word that petulant children might have used in the past 20:50:45 yes, that's what HP says 20:50:45 ais523: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZZNHekEQw certainly fooled me then 20:51:00 although nowadays you'd expect "won't" instead (modern children are unlikely to learn "shan't" as a word…) 20:51:09 ais523: right, that chapter plays in about 1980 20:51:22 Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book? 20:51:25 hmm 20:51:39 ais523: "cannot" IIRC.. let me check 20:51:52 maybe there's more than one English version of the movie? 20:51:53 b_jonas: I did check, fwiw. 20:51:55 this would be far from unheard of 20:52:14 ais523: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35262/where-did-you-shall-not-pass-come-from says both the movie and the book says "cannot" (Gandalf) 20:52:23 ais523: maybe 20:52:24 the first Harry Potter book (and thus the corresponding film) has different names in American and British English… 20:52:59 ais523: wait, the film has different names too? really? 20:53:43 b_jonas: not matching the book would surely be a marketing disaster 20:54:08 Would it? 20:55:07 shachaf: maybe ais523 is speaking in jest 20:55:35 I think it'd be survivable but that the people actually marketing it wouldn't want to risk it 20:55:44 ais523: the books were already famous by the time the first movie was released, and "Harry Potter" is enough for recognizability 20:55:50 but let me check 20:56:19 ais523: you're right, the film has different titles too 20:56:22 interesting 20:56:27 Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (released in the United States, India and Pakistan as Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone) 20:56:29 was its dubbing changed too? 20:56:38 my guess is that they recorded the relevant lines multiple times 20:56:41 Ask me about names in the Neverending Story. :P 20:56:52 it wouldn't have been a noticeable amount of extra work for the actors 20:57:11 int-e: Did you read _Jim Knopf_? 20:57:28 What about _Momo_? 20:57:49 (Bastian = Bastian. Atreju = Atreyu. Xayide = Xayeede. Engywuck = Engywook. Fuchur = Falkor. It makes sense, but it did surprise me a lot when I first saw these...) 20:58:10 shachaf: I have not read Jim Knopf. I only know Momo in german. 20:58:47 You haven't read Jim Knopf?! 20:58:57 Did you see the recent movie? I have it on Blu-Ray. 20:59:06 no 20:59:07 Unfortunately I don't have a Blu-Ray reader so I haven't seen it. 20:59:43 (And which of those three books is "the recent movie" based on?) 21:00:18 Because the American title was different, all scenes that mention the philosopher's stone by name had to be re-shot, once with the actors saying "philosopher's" and once with "sorcerer's". 21:00:44 Jim Knopf. 21:00:56 ais523: I was told that most big budget popular movies have separate dubbings for continental french and canadian french, as well as for european portugese and brazilian portugese; but I thought most of them don't have multiple english dubs. 21:01:03 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3072732/ 21:01:30 it's different in text of course, which is easier to change, eg. it's cheap for some software to have separate american vs british english text 21:01:34 b_jonas: that's mostly just because it'd be a waste, Brits are used to seeing American English in films 21:01:57 ais523: yeah, but the HP movies have mostly british characters 21:02:11 the situation with computer games is weird, many computer game manufacturers have separate European and American translation teams 21:02:13 what happens with films like that? 21:02:27 so often you get separate British English and American English translations 21:03:02 but sometimes the American English translation is reused to save time, e.g. if they want to get a release out in the UK more quickly 21:03:02 video games are different, because they're made with most of the dialog in japanese originally, as opposed to films where most of the dialog is in english originally 21:03:14 this leads to translation inconsistencies between a game and its sequel sometimes 21:03:15 ... 21:03:23 (because one is the British English version, one is the American English version) 21:03:25 ais523: are those translations of the text of the video game, or of the voice acting or dubbing of the video game? 21:03:38 b_jonas: you should make that into a wisdom entry 21:03:47 b_jonas: normally text 21:03:53 I don't play a whole lot of games that have voice acting 21:04:02 (it says more about the video games that you play than about video games in general) 21:04:37 int-e: well, two out of the three largest console manufacturers are Japanese, and this thus affects all their first-party games 21:04:45 * int-e plays a lot of contemporary click&point adventures, and most of those have voice acting 21:05:05 Are there a lot of contemporary click⅋point adventures? 21:05:13 int-e, ais523: yes, the bias comes from how I see people play a lot of nintendo games 21:05:14 ais523: Hmm. You may have a point there. I'm focused on the PC platform. 21:05:42 even though nintendo games are less popular here in europe (still quite popular, mind you), I see them a lot on the internet 21:05:59 shachaf: there are a lot of contemporary point&click adventures 21:06:15 shachaf: I don't think any of them use linear logic of the kind you alluded to 21:06:18 What are a few? I thought they were pretty rare nowadays. 21:06:51 (unless you get into game mechanics where items sometimes get used up? hmm. there's an opportunity to overthink this here, certainly.) 21:06:53 shachaf: how do you typo an upside-down ampersand? I have a huge number of characters on my keyboard but don't know how to type that one 21:07:32 I don't think that was a typo 21:07:36 I don't, but I like to imagine a world in which I do. 21:07:57 First I pressed & &, and it didn't do anything, but I was kind of hoping it would. 21:08:11 that's the first thing I tried too :-D 21:08:13 So then I just inserted it. 21:08:20 shachaf: two ampersands? why not an ampersand and a grave accent? 21:08:35 one minute of searching in gucharmap: ⅋ 21:08:35 b_jonas: it's by analogy with ¿ and ¡ 21:09:03 RFC 1345, the most complete repository of compose sequences I know of (although it disagrees with X on some issues), doesn't have a compose sequence for ⅋ 21:09:17 I have the best Unicode searcher. It's very convenient. 21:09:18 `unidecode ⅋ 21:09:19 ​[U+214B TURNED AMPERSAND] 21:10:23 I guess that my taste in games is focused heavily on gameplay over other factors, also I can't easily download large games or run those with DRM on my computer (because DRM normally requires an Internet connection) 21:10:42 these considerations combined mean that voice acting is very unlikely to be present in a game I play 21:11:06 that said, there is some amount of voice acting in some games I play, but it typically implies that I'll own a physical version (and it may well be a console game) 21:11:50 …the other impressive thing about RFC 1345 is that it is about non-ASCII character sets and compose sequences, yet is written entirely in ASCII 21:12:04 I think the main reason for defining all the compose sequences was to make it possible to readably write the rest of the document 21:12:20 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1345.html doesn't seem to mention the upside down ampersand 21:12:36 ah yes, ais523 looked it up already 21:15:17 Hmm, my Unicode selector is already the best, but it's kind of cobbled together out of multiple pieces which isn't ideal. 21:15:29 I should write an even better Unicode selector thing. 21:15:39 …actually no, this isn't ASCII, is it? it's /actually/ ISO646 21:15:47 if it were ASCII it'd be able to use things like square brackets literally 21:16:13 The trouble is that rendering Unicode text is really hard. 21:17:36 There's pretty much only one free library for Unicode text layout, and it has some problems. 21:17:54 And also the author/maintainer seems to be a jerk about any criticisms of it. 21:18:39 hmm, theoretically libuncursed2 is planned to do Unicode text /layout/ (although not rendering, it just works out where to put the characters) 21:19:09 Well, layout is the hard part. 21:19:58 As far as I can tell there's no specification for how to do it or anything like that. 21:20:31 Librarie that do it just get a bunch of language-specific implementations from people who speak particular languages. 21:20:40 the main complexities are a) grapheme clustering, which definitely is specified; b) bidirectional layout, which I think is specified but haven't checked 21:20:49 What's libuncursed2? 21:20:52 but libuncursed2 is monospace only 21:21:03 it's a curses replacement that I was working on, then stopped 21:21:28 Oh, monospace-only is probably easier. 21:21:30 (so was libuncursed1, for that matter; libuncursed2 is meant to have a less ridiculous API, though, whereas libuncursed1's was almost curses-compatible) 21:21:41 I want to lay out general text. 21:22:16 I just want a library that implements the necessary algorithms and doesn't insist on taking over the world with regard to memory management or whatever. 21:22:23 shachaf: pango is probably one of the very few libraries that tries to tackle all its complexity, yes 21:22:26 I can't tell why harfbuzz wants to reference-count everything as its only API. 21:22:31 Pango just uses harfbuzz, right? 21:22:36 I don't know 21:22:43 it might 21:22:48 I don't know what it uses underneath, I just use its api 21:23:01 I know it has dependencies 21:23:22 it has to do lots of magic about accessing fonts installed on the system 21:23:35 Ugh, I don't want magic. 21:24:02 well, it has lots of user-configurable knobs, so I think you can turn whatever magic you don't want off 21:24:19 but I don't see how you want to do general text layout without magic, unless you know a lot about every script there is in unicode 21:24:20 I want to be able to put glyphs in a font atlas thing and have them rendered on the GPU anyway. 21:24:33 or every script there is in existing fonts, rather 21:24:52 Presumably given a particular string I can figure out which glyphs are necessary for rendering it. 21:25:03 shachaf: no, that's pango's job 21:25:10 figuring out which glyphs to render and where exactly 21:25:12 and a bit more 21:25:37 then you can use pango with multiple different frontends that actually draw the glyphs there if you want to render them, including on GPU 21:25:52 I also want libraries that don't ever call malloc. 21:25:59 That seems like a pretty reasonable request. 21:26:17 that... may be hard in this case 21:26:32 um 21:26:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:26:53 you want the same library to do both, right? help with text layout and never call malloc that is 21:27:26 I don't want any library to call malloc. That doesn't seem that unreasonable. 21:27:28 you can probably make a version that calls your own malloc-like functions if you really need to 21:28:04 I definitely don't want libraries to do reference counting. That's just ridiculous. 21:28:05 though it might be hard because you may have to go down to all dependencies including gobject 21:28:26 shachaf: again, that will be hard with the current status of these libraries 21:29:03 and for rendering layout, that seems an unreasonable requirement to me. surely you want them to cache the information they learned out about fonts and stuff, and they need refcounting for that 21:29:45 libuncursed, at least, inherently needs memory from somewhere; what would be your suggested API for that? 21:30:09 (note that the intended API uses nothing but Unicode strings and 32-bit integers to make it easy to wrap from arbitrary languages) 21:30:21 Hmm, I could pass in some amount of memory that it requests. 21:30:22 calling malloc seems like the obvious method 21:31:07 The main thing I want is a clear understanding of the memory usage and allocation profile of my program. 21:31:20 I for one am fine with libraries like this doing malloc and some reference counting 21:32:03 shachaf: is it OK if all the routines that can allocate memory have a name clearly indicating that? 21:32:17 shachaf: you can still do that with malloc, you can probably replace malloc 21:33:00 That would be better, and it would also be better if I can pass in an allocator rather than it calling the global malloc. 21:33:22 sure, there are some functions where I want to make sure that they don't malloc, but for anything like text layout or rendering, using malloc is fine for me, 21:33:42 assuming it can clean up after itself of course, doesn't leak memory like crazy 21:38:19 also for english pronunciation, article http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html is fresh out from the press 21:38:36 huh, it's written in English? 21:38:45 I guess that makes sense given its topic 21:39:21 ais523: David alwasy writes some articles in English, it's just less common than it used to be in the early years of his blog 21:39:30 (the blog is very old, so some change is not surprising) 21:40:24 but http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html is new and also in English 21:41:40 "always writes some articles in English" is a modal logic thing? 21:41:48 "always eventually", I guess. 21:43:18 hmm yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html is in french and is about english language 21:43:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 21:44:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:46:00 and these days David keeps writing more and more stuff on Twitter rather than on the blog, and some of that is always in English too 21:54:58 my own answers: warn=worn; fairy≠ferry; spear it≠spirit; fire≠far; law=lore; ant?=aunt ("aunt" varies); full≠fool; sun=son; horse=hoarse; pain=pane; hire?=higher (both vary); threw=through; luck≠look; would=wood; poor≠pure; brewed=brood; steering≠stirring; shed≠shared; morning=mourning; tower≠tyre ("tire" doesn't exist in en_GB); farm≠form; sat≠set; dolly≠Dali; hit≠heat; bury=berry; putt≠put; nose=knows; tower≠tar; 21:54:59 earn=urn; [h]urry≠[f]urry; [n]earer≠[m]irror; stow≠store; poor=pour; hairy≠Harry; fir=fur; for=four; surely≠Shirley; cot≠caught; meet=meat; cap≠cup 21:56:05 does "tire" not exists even as an uncommon verb? 21:56:18 b_jonas: oh yes, I missed the verb possibility 21:56:38 it's mostly only used as "tired" but does exist as a verb on its own 21:57:22 as in "I tire of this farce!" when Jabba drops Oola into the Rancor pit in Darths & Droids http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1210.html 21:57:42 b_jonas: If the library wants to do caching that seems fine, but surely it should have a lower-level interface where I can control the caching? 21:58:19 shachaf: I don't know the details. you can probably control at least as much to be able to ask to purge the cashes 21:58:25 s/cash/cach/ 21:58:57 you can check the manual at https://developer.gnome.org/pango/unstable/ if you want, or a local copy 21:59:38 Ugh, I definitely don't want to use glib. 21:59:45 Every time I've tried to use a glib thing it's been miserable. 22:00:13 shachaf: I think pango itself doesn't use glib, only cairo does 22:00:19 pango uses gobject, which is sort of related 22:00:23 but I'm not sure of this 22:00:42 in practice I use pango+cairo together (pango has an easy api for that), so it uses glib 22:00:50 but only internally, it doesn't expose that 22:01:24 nor does pango expose gobject I think 22:01:53 it doesn't bother me this way 22:02:00 it would bother me if it was exposed of course 22:03:38 eg. pango uses the type int to give width, not gint 22:20:57 ais523: my three wrong answers for the poll (despite that no answers are wrong) are for horse, son, and mourning 22:21:13 I still don't understand how "o" works in English pronunciation 22:21:20 most of the time I pronounce it randomly 22:21:49 it usually matches the vowel in "pot" but sometimes it just means something else, seemingly at random 22:26:08 "oo" and "ou" confuse me, because I always try to pronounce them as long u (or sometimes short U for ou) when stressed 22:26:34 but there are a lot of words where it's pronounce as some of the o vowels, but I can never remember which ones 22:26:57 I do know that "poor" and "pour" are strange, and I pronounce those inconsistently 22:27:20 and I do know some frequent words like "four" have long o 22:27:39 but still in many words, it confuses me, and that's what got me in "mourning" 22:28:33 oh! you must have tried to pronounce it like "hour" 22:28:45 I was trying to figure out what the other viable reading of the word was 22:28:47 I also know that "your" and "you're" has long o, despite that you has U 22:29:11 a good guideline is that an r after a vowel almost always affects how the vowel is pronounced 22:29:13 as for "horse", I thought it has a _short_ o, and I'm still surprised that it doesn't 22:29:19 although the r itself may end up silent 22:29:40 "horse" doesn't really have an "o" at all, the vowel is "or" 22:30:19 and there are probably exceptions to how "or" is pronounced because there are exceptions to everything, but it's one of the more reliably pronounced out of the various English vowel spellings 22:30:23 "tour" 22:30:58 "t" + "or" 22:31:17 "our" is ambiguous, it can either be pronounced like "or" or else more like "ower" 22:31:40 "son" is the worse, because I have heared that word enough, so I should have known how it's pronounce 22:32:11 for "horse" I can say that I just don't care about them so I don't listen to texts that talk about horses 22:32:20 I think it's a reasonable excuse 22:32:40 well, from my point of view "son" is irregular so it's easy to imagine someone guessing that wrong 22:32:55 yes, lots of words are irregular, that's sort of the problem 22:33:05 but "horse" is regular (apart from the e at the end) so that's more of a surprise 22:33:21 (I think the e at the end is needed because "hors" is an imported French word and thus has a silent s) 22:35:03 -!- FreeFull has quit. 22:36:29 hungarian is so much easier, because there used to be fewer words with irregular spelling. these days there are somewhat more because some people aren't willing to write a lot of english words in their english spelling even long after they're definitely naturalized. "ímél" is the most annoying to me, because so many people still write it as "email" or "e-mail" 22:36:32 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:36:43 but "fájl" vs "file" is older 22:37:10 luckily people get "fájl" right more often because they see it in the localized windows UI menubars 22:38:59 I thought Hungarian respelled all loanwords in Hungarian spelling according to their pronunciation? 22:39:15 among the words that aren't neologisms, the more famous ones that have irregular spelling or may have irregular spelling in some dialects are "kisebb", "egy", "köpeny", "szőlő", "tízes", "húszas", and there's a few more than I forgot 22:39:43 although áj is a bit of a weird way to spell English long i 22:39:44 plus there are a few interjections that don't follow the normal phonology rules so their transcription is odd 22:41:19 ais523: loanwords are supposed to be respelled if they've become a regular part of the language and they're not proper nouns; but they are kept in the original spelling while they're rare and just ad-hoc borrowed, as long as it's borrowed from a language usually written in latin script (including serbian) 22:42:38 ais523: I don't find "áj" weird for spelling the english long i. it corresponds closely to the sound. 22:43:07 I guess I find it hard to understand what j does in Hungarian 22:46:46 ais523: in this case I think of it as a semi-vowel that forms a glide with the previous vowel. hungarian has those only _after_ a vowel, not before, which is why people with hungarian accents like me pronounce some english w-words strange. 22:47:45 there's an analogous u semi-vowel in hungarian too, but it's pretty rare, basically only occurs in the word "autó" and related words, and even then the pronunciation is variable, plus transcribed ancient greek words with a vowel + u 22:48:06 (vowel other than omikron) + u 22:48:35 IIRC Hungarian "ly" is a sound that doesn't exist in English 22:48:47 "ly" is pronounced the same as "j" 22:49:11 so I don't see how that would work 22:50:10 (except in a few old family names that spell "i" as "y", such as Thököly) 22:50:29 as Hungarian "j" or English "j"? 22:50:49 I thought English "j" was close to Hungarian "gy" (not identical, but close enough to be mutually intelligible) 22:51:13 as in Hungarian "j" 22:51:25 Hungarian "j" and Hungarian "ly" are pronounced the same 22:51:45 and it's basically the same sound as the english "y" when it's a consonant, such as in "yet" and "yellow" 22:51:54 hmm, that's a bit of a surprise 22:51:59 how do you know which one to spell words with? 22:52:23 rote memorization, just like in english? 22:52:23 except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" 22:52:29 yes, rote memorization 22:52:43 my banes were "muszáj" and "papagáj" 22:53:51 there are a few rules that help: grammatical suffixes never have "ly" but often have "j", and "ly" doesn't occur at the start of a word excet in "lyuk" and its derivatives 22:53:57 except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" ← because that would modify the vowel rather than being a consonant 22:54:06 there are also hints in that "ly" is rarer than "j", and "ly" is rare before a consonant 22:55:53 but you do have to learn a long list of words with "ly" and "j" in school, eg. common ones like "folyik, lyuk", and rare ones that teachers like eg. "gólya, sirály, karvaly, papagáj" (four birds), "gálya, bója", 22:56:15 and even obscure words like "zsöllye" which I never heard or read anyone use except in the context of learning the spelling 22:59:05 "zsöllye" means the ordinary seats in a theatre, as opposed to the seats in boxes, but everyone just calls them "szék" which means chair 22:59:20 why would you need a special word for them? 22:59:49 special words for types of birds, that I can understand 23:00:13 there are way more than the four I listed that we had to learn 23:22:33 I guess "bója" is a third one that I can call my bane, besides "muszáj" and "papagáj". all three sound like they should be spelled with "ly", but they aren't 23:23:33 but these days I think I know all three of them, and all other words 23:25:10 "j" vs "ly" in all other words that is, not the spelling of all other words in general 23:30:06 also all newly created words use "j" except where the "ly" is taken from a word they're derived from, so "ly" is a finite list, though there are obscure obsolate words on that list that I may not know 23:30:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:31:11 I know even _some_ obscure words with "ly" that I never use and aren't even sure in the meaning, like "csobolyó" and "süly" and "kesely" 23:36:57 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:38:05 ais523: What about the smaller case of one function that returns variable-size data? 23:38:21 I think there are many options other than a malloc call and most of them are better. 23:38:44 IIRC the API was designed so that all possible string-returning functions return data that exists literally as part of the executable, so it's just pointers to static strings 23:39:05 that's a pretty major restriction but for something like libuncursed2 it may be doable 23:39:50 Which API? 23:39:53 I mean in general. 23:40:13 libuncursed2's 23:40:23 in general there is probably no good cross-language solution 23:40:48 Sure. Say in C. 23:41:28 count-and-copy is a solution that is capable of being good in some circumstances and is likely to be portable cross-language 23:41:49 (you call to ask how much space to reserve, then provide memory of that size for the called function to copy the return value into) 23:42:06 but for some functions it doesn't work as you have to do the same calculations twice 23:42:06 That can result in some duplicated work unfortunately. 23:42:10 Right. 23:42:25 One thing you can do is turn your function into a coroutine/state machine that can suspend when it needs more memory. 23:42:35 This is kind of similar to a malloc call (but more flexible). 23:43:53 You could pass a large buffer into the function and have it tell you how much it used. 23:44:33 I was going to say "that doesn't work because you need memory to record your current state to be able to return it" 23:44:47 then I realised that it suspends mid-calculation as soon as it runs out of memory 23:45:07 Right, you give it a "stack frame" struct that it can record its current state in. 23:45:32 this is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm not sure it's been tried before? 23:45:43 coroutines + memory allocation as two problems that are each used to solve the other 23:48:54 -!- iczero has changed nick to webpack. 23:51:12 Say you're implementing sprintf, which returns a variable-size output. 23:51:41 The normal thing to do is to call it twice to get the length the first time. 23:52:17 But if you're implementing printf using sprintf, you don't even want to allocate a full-size buffer. You want to sprintf to a fixed-size buffer until it's full, then flush it, and repeat until you're done. 23:52:41 so ideally you want a coroutine that yields a stream of characters 23:52:45 The coroutine formulation seems the most natural for that sort of thing. It's not even about allocation in that case because you never want the full string in memory. 23:53:07 oh wow 23:53:15 I think you really have hit on an important discovery here 23:53:20 I think yielding a character at a time isn't really what you want (except maybe conceptually). 23:53:41 You just want to give it a buffer and have it fill the buffer as much as it can based on its current state. 23:53:55 well, "yield…stream" would ideally have some sort of buffering, but maybe it could exist at a higher level somehow? 23:54:02 rather than being built into the source code of the functions in question 23:55:17 Hmm, these are details you can figure out in some reasonable way. The main point is the way flow control should happen. 23:55:27 Control flow! 23:55:31 I always get it wrong. 23:56:52 shachaf: ironically, this actually /is/ a flow control problem (in the sense of working out how much should be buffered before sending it)