< 1564617946 23286 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1564620274 680419 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it turns out writing machine code can be kind of tedious. > 1564623833 96280 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64877 5* 03A 5* (+1073) 10Created page with "[[Your Pillows]] are [[esoteric programming language]]s directly based off pillows. It is somehow influenced by [[Brace For Impact]] and [[Beatnik]]. ==Syntax of your pillows=..." > 1564624550 889768 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ummm...14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64878&oldid=59008 5* 03A 5* (+190) 10 < 1564624582 920615 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564624653 563687 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64879&oldid=64877 5* 03A 5* (+197) 10/* Instructions */ < 1564625081 153563 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564626900 401027 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1564626901 480508 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is int-e's job. < 1564627271 894150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The password of the month is surprising. < 1564627274 41932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is surprising. > 1564629695 270370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64880&oldid=64862 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+138) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564629829 698702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64881&oldid=64870 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+449) 10/* Technical Regarding Interpreter */ Python interpreter done! < 1564629992 619675 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfstbnbgqqrrvzyf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564634210 978204 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1564639889 930012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64882&oldid=64766 5* 03A 5* (-13424) 10Remove all of them; it is always visible in the page history. > 1564639931 695276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64883&oldid=64882 5* 03A 5* (+632) 10/* Blocked */ > 1564639964 806268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64884&oldid=64883 5* 03A 5* (+3) 10/* Game */ > 1564640061 698509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64885&oldid=64884 5* 03A 5* (-337) 10/* Game */ > 1564640633 221343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64886&oldid=64885 5* 03A 5* (+905) 10/* Game */ > 1564640649 284113 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64887&oldid=64886 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* One */ < 1564644848 362348 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564645027 72673 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564645040 989896 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564645082 790805 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564646341 554587 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564646710 636131 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564646730 690269 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564646969 667690 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64888&oldid=64887 5* 03A 5* (+1170) 10/* One */ > 1564647109 845206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64889&oldid=64888 5* 03A 5* (+24) 10/* Game */ < 1564648552 929507 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564648563 504826 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64890 5* 03A 5* (+1732) 10Created page with "[[Deadfish Joust]] is a [[deadfish]]-based game, consisting of two contestants who attempt to modify an accumulator to make the accumulator as close to their value as possib..." < 1564648784 481737 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1564648807 23868 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64891&oldid=64881 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 > 1564648876 408970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64892&oldid=64889 5* 03A 5* (-2414) 10/* Game (code golf in deadfish) */ > 1564649253 149055 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64893 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+208) 10Created page with "= Contest controller = I might try and make a simple offline controller in python. ~~~~" > 1564649775 802974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64894&oldid=64880 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+721) 10/* Python Interpreter */ > 1564649845 585334 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64895&oldid=64891 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+40) 10 < 1564649953 823973 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. How is brainfuck not a concatenative language? < 1564650014 887181 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of taking a stack to a stack, each function takes (tape, control context) -> (tape, control context) < 1564650059 798732 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually see where this breaks down, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless) < 1564650372 381020 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF < 1564650442 455919 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Not sure. Maybe, a long time ago. < 1564650493 357942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to do anything interesting with control context in a concatenative language, do you need to support storing function values somehow in the state that your functions work on? < 1564650723 536054 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer is "yes" in some weak sense < 1564650746 930042 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is probably a lot of wiggle room in "somehow" < 1564650773 333093 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also some room in "interesting" < 1564650954 818377 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1564650979 212539 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even "concatenative" - I get the impression that a lot of concatenative languages are purely so < 1564650984 647308 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*aren't < 1564651401 68215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "second-order concatenative" - you have functions (stack -> stack), in monoids, but these monoids are embedded in an "outer" monoid where the functions are ((stack -> stack) -> (stack -> stack)) < 1564651438 934592 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure BF++ < 1564651707 841257 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make it "look concatenative" by having the inner monoids seperated by a single | character or something (rather than being enclosed in some kind of brackets, which seems more conventional) < 1564651735 932362 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :: and ; count as brackets, if you're Forth > 1564651840 11511 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64896&oldid=64894 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+349) 10 > 1564652655 882873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64897&oldid=64896 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+59) 10 < 1564652835 71446 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe there are two disjoint sets of characters, "inner" and "outer". > 1564652842 184020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64898&oldid=64893 5* 03A 5* (+171) 10 < 1564652861 344601 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The (stack -> stack) functions also need to... be stacked in a stack or something < 1564652881 928663 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1564652887 216946 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This might be worth working out > 1564652915 252830 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64899&oldid=64890 5* 03A 5* (+27) 10 > 1564653028 409613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64900&oldid=64796 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10/* Y */ > 1564653093 964015 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64901&oldid=64561 5* 03A 5* (+75) 10/* General languages */ > 1564653282 286233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64902&oldid=64899 5* 03A 5* (+294) 10 > 1564653467 274864 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64903&oldid=64902 5* 03A 5* (+166) 10 > 1564653567 455917 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64904&oldid=64903 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10/* Typing */ > 1564653801 339754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64905&oldid=64904 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Typing */ > 1564653899 394797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64906&oldid=64876 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+215) 10 < 1564653923 524183 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564653937 531188 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1564654176 139954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64907&oldid=64895 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+118) 10 < 1564654834 909060 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second-order functions don't need to be stacked, there just needs to be a second-order identity function that can be second-order composed with other second-order functions < 1564654882 112816 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is this related to higher dimensional category theory? < 1564654895 798119 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as you see an "outer" character (representing a second-order function) you take all the first-order functions that you have been collecting so far ("inner" characters) and make a second-order function out of it < 1564654926 29660 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: not to my knowledge < 1564654946 974726 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure someone could *make* it related to that if they tried hard enough < 1564655029 158074 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564655091 344960 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` card-by-name "$(ping)" < 1564655092 291131 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pongify \ U \ Instant \ Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Its controller creates a 3/3 green Ape creature token. \ PLC-U, C14-U > 1564655211 10110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64908&oldid=64907 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-65) 10 < 1564655375 751520 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monoid is a category with one object. Maybe this is a category with two objects. < 1564655407 731197 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be my bet, but I don't like category theory so I tend not to think in those terms. > 1564655639 540331 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64909 5* 03A 5* (+1381) 10Created page with "[[Smalllang]] is a joke [[esoteric programming language]] created in order to fullfill [[User:Hanzlu]]'s definition of a usable language, as it tries its best to make itself..." < 1564655741 707232 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it's kind of like a 2-monoid (by analogy with 2-category) < 1564656132 709324 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ``` cd wisdom; find -type f -printf "%s %p\n" | sort -n # shortest wisdoms < 1564656449 357346 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cemulate.github.io/the-mlab/ is just as good as the nLab as far as I'm concerned. < 1564657119 350013 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) > 1564657424 629986 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64910&oldid=64179 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+160) 10 < 1564657543 256407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits nak < 1564657545 16514 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän oerjän < 1564657552 642998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits output < 1564657554 350492 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän oerjän oerjän olsnër < 1564657561 804955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd. < 1564657567 27873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hwrl nak < 1564657569 28227 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/nak > 1564658470 599489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64911&oldid=64906 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+155) 10 > 1564658987 68702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64912&oldid=64901 5* 03A 5* (+50) 10 > 1564659037 430497 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64913&oldid=64909 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+454) 10 > 1564659078 130374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64914&oldid=64913 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-2) 10 < 1564659177 64840 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the category is just called 2; two objects a, b and a single non-identity arrow a -> b < 1564659226 184227 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *guess* that arrow corresponds to lifting a (S->S) into a ((S->S)->(S->S)) in this case < 1564659313 188605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless...? Maybe there are more arrows than these here < 1564659718 206072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmpf. I thought 2 has no arrow at all < 1564659724 863126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(non-identity) < 1564659751 962228 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there seems to be some controversy about that: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1227142 < 1564659761 429101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I care much. I regard category theory as unnecessary obfuscation. > 1564659783 464677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64915&oldid=64914 5* 03A 5* (+276) 10I can still use it to create an infinite loop. (Now I can't.) < 1564659807 967700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because the only way *I* can make sense of it is to translate everything back into concrete categories) < 1564659839 245367 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely prefer thinking in terms of algebraic structures myself > 1564659890 22095 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64916&oldid=64915 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1564659907 442490 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa7-175.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564659919 474975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that backtranslation stops working somewhere around natural transformations (probably still just fine) and adjoint functors :P < 1564660019 244661 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ever need them I know where to look for them < 1564660028 987844 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I will never, ever need them) < 1564660033 884061 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Famous last words) > 1564660050 660749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64917&oldid=64916 5* 03A 5* (+69) 10/* Interpreter */ Error handling < 1564660064 985259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As last words go, these have a good chance of being true at that point... < 1564660088 45670 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564660088 800747 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64918&oldid=64917 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1564660121 665542 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a6a-88.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564660121 856349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp wombat < 1564660123 386679 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564660209 342147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "Air? Where we're going we won't need ai--" ) < 1564660417 641078 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa7-175.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1564660454 754487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64919&oldid=64898 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* Contest controller */ This is indeed odd. < 1564660541 397815 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking there might need to be another arrow, because the result of all this concatenating is going to be a function ((S->S)->(S->S)) but you probably want to run it on some input data, which would be an S, not an (S->S). < 1564660582 166425 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd want to be able to lift and, uh. Forget? < 1564660610 597166 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you just lift the input instead < 1564660626 71555 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-bcee02-33.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564660662 36206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is this going, all linear languages are concatenative if you build the parser state into the semantics? < 1564660719 896205 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there was some such parody about that, claiming that x86 assembly was concatenative < 1564660836 999176 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think https://catseye.tc/article/List_of_Unfinished_Interesting_Esolangs#paneer is probably related to that < 1564660900 695785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. all you need is a call-with-current-input < 1564660938 801378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So tromp's BLC is a simple candidate. < 1564660948 884809 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't planning to go anywhere near that far with this idea, I just want a second-order concatenative language right now > 1564660998 834259 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64920&oldid=64918 5* 03A 5* (+29) 10/* Instructions */ > 1564661027 19206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64921&oldid=64920 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions */ > 1564661038 817180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BLC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64922 5* 03Int-e 5* (+36) 10add redirect for semi-common abbreviation < 1564661048 132730 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd still like to see a language that is based on SKI calculus, the way that unlambda is, but uses something like Haskell's IO to do interactive IO > 1564661136 492835 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Smalllang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64923&oldid=64921 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10/* Instructions */ < 1564661202 362856 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Would you be willing to settle for it being a DSL embedded in Haskell? < 1564661271 251996 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know, haskell being typed could be a problem. I'd like some basis of combinators (not necessarily SKI specifically) to be trivial to translate into it < 1564661289 301573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The point I had in mind with BLC is that it's specified with a binary stream as input; the program is parsed from that input and the remaining input is passed to that program, so it already has "call with current input" built in. < 1564661290 375299 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without getting type errors < 1564661292 343731 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a SKI interpreter in Haskell once but I've never been confident it's correct because I've never found a good collection of tests cases for SKI terms < 1564661341 584241 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, nobody writes actual programs for those < 1564661363 333638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps some of the ones from the unlambda quine competition could help, but they use side effects so depend on the order of evaluation < 1564661365 61028 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to occasionally < 1564661365 924492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, any concrete definition of (a) Kolmogorov complexity will probably have the same feature.) < 1564661401 745747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And I know I'm going off a tangent. < 1564661577 563802 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Maybe not really. Like a TM, you don't really *need* to have input. You start off writing the data you want, onto the tape (or in this case, with a function (S->S) that returns a constant S) < 1564661653 31184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not really good for information complexity... there's too much inherent redundancy in Turing Machines themselves. < 1564661657 982187 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was another tanget I was thinking about similar to this regarding infinite programs, and maybe Turing machines with fixed-length input tapes are not a bad idea < 1564661679 380822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're better off with just a string that you split into program and input. < 1564661726 30367 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Compared to embedding the input into the program, which may blow up depending on the model of computation.) < 1564661831 146887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean one of the properties that you want off Kolmogorov complexity is that the formalism you base it on only changes it by O(1). < 1564661901 347241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Formalism = a concrete model of computation, which should be Turing-complete.) < 1564662442 114526 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's to stop the program from treating the input as another program though < 1564663030 552958 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my thought was, the finite control of a TM is defined to be finite, so if you map your program to a TM, you know it's finite and that's fine. You can also map your program to a finite string and feed it as input to a TM, *but*... < 1564663076 161954 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...a TM reads its input from its tape, and its tape is *not* finite, so if you somehow put an infinite program there, it would not reject that. < 1564663096 538122 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I mean, if it does not ever stop reading that input, you can't really blame it. < 1564663140 477188 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that will happen. < 1564663284 371711 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really remember what the implications of this that I cared about were, now. < 1564663878 54262 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overall it has to do with "infinite programs" and whether you accept them or not. Is "the decimal expansion of sqrt(2)+sqrt(3)" an infinite program? < 1564663898 237917 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an algebraic number, I can communicate it finitely < 1564663917 45409 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564663921 977486 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the interpreter wants to compute decimal digits of it to find out what to do next, that's its perogative < 1564663942 601856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an infinite string with finite description complexity < 1564663952 381160 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: like most TMs < 1564663961 565507 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "most" < 1564663969 991572 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaitin's omega notwithstanding < 1564663974 348416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a type mismatch < 1564663989 108661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) TMs are finite. b) TMs are not strings. < 1564664019 333375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Chaitin only allows finite programs. < 1564664036 330250 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually when I write down a TM it's a string < 1564664064 492993 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUt I think there's some confusion here < 1564664092 633788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think we're in a corner where it's valuable to be more precise. < 1564664124 337895 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. You can identify TMs with their finite descriptions. You can also identify them with the (sometimes) infinite string they write on their tape when you run them. < 1564664181 192093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... the picture I have in mind is this: a) we have a Turing-complete model of computation. b) we have a prefix-free encoding of programs for that model. c) we consider strings p i where p is a program and i is the program's input. < 1564664234 881186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We also want all programs to be encoded so by König's lemma there are infinite strings that do not have a program as a prefix. Those are not infinite programs; they're just garbage :P < 1564664332 33721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And all this happens over some fixed finite alphabet. {0,1} is a neat choice.) > 1564664354 383100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64924&oldid=64908 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+119) 10 < 1564664368 877591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is glossing over details like the map from the strings p to programs being effectively computable... < 1564664404 347858 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how would the latter work? there are different turing machines that write different strings when they get no input < 1564664437 978787 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... why am I yellow now? < 1564664509 9446 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see, I'm yellow in webchat, but still bluish gray in the esolangs.org logs < 1564664517 406174 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 NICK :lob_jonas < 1564664562 936846 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I only mean "for each TM you can look at the infinite string it produces" - I mean "sqrt(2)+sqrt(3)" and "sqrt(3)+sqrt(2)" generate the same infinite string of digits too < 1564664592 268388 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, but you said "identify" < 1564664595 15654 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given the infinite string, you don't know which of those finite strings produced it. < 1564664611 609379 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: fine, I didn't mean identify, I'm sorry < 1564664622 393723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, identifying TMs with their output lands you in Rice territory. < 1564664629 81352 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wa < 1564664640 81426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"associate"? < 1564664646 289530 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :->, not <-> < 1564664665 43392 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it matters because I don't think I'm talking about what int-e is talking about :) < 1564664668 32997 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer => or |> or |-> for that < 1564664677 399545 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but admittedly some programming languages abuse -> for this < 1564664688 196492 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Haskell is prudent enough to put a backslash before < 1564664694 598510 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> also works < 1564664744 72124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nobody wrote "associate"?? < 1564664755 73547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean except for you, and now me... < 1564664766 575470 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was trying to think of a word that would have been better for me to use, than "identify" < 1564664780 22832 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1564664801 328504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I probably wouldn't have objected to that :) < 1564665000 693895 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a sense, yhe only infinite programs you need to worry about, are those that are uncomputable, because if they're computable, you can devise a TM to compute them, and write that TM as a finite string, and there's your finite program. < 1564665085 180190 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In a sense" probably includes "If you're not also worrying about Kolmogorov complexity" in its meaning here < 1564665447 565200 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? in a sense < 1564665448 757537 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564665572 858721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in a wisdom context we need to clarify which of the 5 senses we're talking about. < 1564665627 793968 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balance < 1564665635 840444 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right and wrong < 1564665859 436730 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Balance < 1564665860 33932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balance \ 1W \ Sorcery \ Each player chooses a number of lands they control equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Players discard cards and sacrifice creatures the same way. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, EMA-M, VMA-M, ME4-R, V09-M \ \ Balance of Power \ 3UU \ Sorcery \ If target opponent has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference. \ P1-R, P3K-R, 8ED-R < 1564665955 402827 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Right and wrong" is probably a future split spell < 1564666287 748652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "Wrong, instant, 1B, choose one: counter target "Right" spell, or put a -1/-1 counter on target creature." / "Right, instant, 1W: Choose one: counter target "Wrong" spell, or: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature." -- probably unbalanced, but what do you think of the mutual counter spell idea? ) > 1564666326 301824 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64925&oldid=64924 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+48) 10 < 1564666429 834748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not meant to be useful either, just for flavor.) < 1564666503 914254 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: unbalanced in what sense? just the +1/+1 counter instant half alone would cost (W/G) alone, the other half would cost (B/R), making it a split card makes it a bit better because it gives you the choice, but not so much as to make it too cheap for 1B and 1W < 1564666526 922925 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the Right would have to be the left half, strange as it may sound < 1564666544 288196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I wasn't making a split card though. < 1564666549 715035 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564666554 810874 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they're definitely overpriced < 1564666558 785899 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Scar < 1564666559 422372 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scar \ (b/r) \ Instant \ Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. \ SHM-C \ \ Scarab Feast \ B \ Instant \ Exile up to three target cards from a single graveyard. \ Cycling {B} ({B}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ AKH-C \ \ Scarab of the Unseen \ 2 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Scarab of the Unseen: Return all Auras attached to target permanent you own to their owners' hands. Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep. \ AI-U \ \ Scarblade < 1564666595 979574 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Battlegrowth < 1564666596 648663 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Battlegrowth \ G \ Instant \ Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. \ MRD-C < 1564666603 751763 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, isn't there one that costs (W/G)? < 1564666644 111713 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1564666655 978110 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Burst of Strength < 1564666656 720992 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Burst of Strength \ G \ Instant \ Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and untap it. \ GTC-C < 1564666668 26896 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just G is clearly not too cheap < 1564666676 537058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I really wanted 'wrong: counter "right" spell' 'right: counter "wrong" spell' - which means they have to be instants. But the cards need another effect to have any use at all. < 1564666678 95198 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably could be done for (W/G) < 1564666703 449999 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, but I still think those names would be reserved for a split spell unless that's proven impossible < 1564666713 357726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue about balancing in M:tG; I have never played it seriously and I have not played it in the past 8 years. < 1564666725 593734 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such nice short names are in a short supply for M:tG, because it wants to live for a long time > 1564666744 622232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64926&oldid=64919 5* 03A 5* (+152) 10 < 1564666750 469316 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One) card makes fun of that < 1564666809 307959 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sequential_tag_system is (I guess) the reference point for what I was saying. I think that explanation for why infinite programs are justified is more than a little muddy. < 1564666823 722649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also arbitrarily thought that "right" should be a white spell and "wrong" a black one :P) < 1564666854 894466 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, it certainly makes sense that the white spell puts the +1/+1 counter and the black spell puts the -1/-1 counters < 1564666918 478608 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if you want two opposing spells that counter each other, I'd like to point to the ones from Alpha: < 1564666923 281073 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Blue Elemental Blast < 1564666925 237499 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blue Elemental Blast \ U \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ • Counter target red spell. \ • Destroy target red permanent. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, A25-U, ME4-U < 1564666925 752664 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Red Elemental Blast < 1564666927 746272 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Red Elemental Blast \ R \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ • Counter target blue spell. \ • Destroy target blue permanent. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, A25-U, ME4-U < 1564666960 817846 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also White Knight and Black Knight, but they don't counter < 1564666985 760451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: thanks for the example < 1564667041 792684 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :countering itself doesn't happen often in black and white, which is why this pair is red and blue > 1564667232 773651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64927&oldid=64905 5* 03A 5* (-41) 10 > 1564667270 314706 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64928&oldid=64927 5* 03A 5* (+16) 10 < 1564667437 211784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564667556 451235 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Sequential tag system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64929 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+698) 10Created page with "== Trying to make this more precise == Here are some subsets of the set of all sequential tag systems: * Sequential tag systems that a cyclic tag system can be translated int..." > 1564667907 309148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64930&oldid=64928 5* 03A 5* (-294) 10/* Instructions in deadfish Joust */ > 1564668269 997749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64931&oldid=64930 5* 03A 5* (+749) 10 > 1564668282 617997 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64932&oldid=64931 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */ < 1564668920 48909 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a language that accepts infinite programs and you don't restrict that set of programs to those that have finite descriptions (as e.g. TMs that generate them) you're... not in a place where it makes sense to write TC proofs anymore. < 1564669069 230797 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some CAs need infinite initial configurations to be shown TC. In practice those configurations always have finite descriptions, as far as I have ever seen < 1564669135 501348 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect you want an even stronger constraint than "finite" but again, I don't think I've seen any which need extremely complex initial configurations < 1564669154 200463 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sequential tag systems that are expansions of cyclic tag systems are not very complex at all < 1564669392 154294 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine anyone who objects to a TC proof by that method, would also object to the very idea of a language that allows infinite programs < 1564669435 480929 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, if they don't, I'd like to hear more about their philosophical views of computation < 1564669648 978947 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This is what I've been ranting about today. Well, this and second-order concatenative languages < 1564669753 411172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I have something of a practical objection: people see TCness proofs based on infinite cyclic initial states and then try to use them to prove other languages TC, when those languages can only simulate finitely-nonblank initial states < 1564669787 489912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen so many proofs that try to prove something TC via implementing rule 110 but with the space only finitely initialised… < 1564669819 907663 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it proven that rule 100 with finite initialisation is not TC? < 1564669844 439545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, there's clearly a boundary between acceptable and unacceptable initial states for infiinite programs, the main controversy is about where to put it < 1564669848 607247 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are those proofs fixable by initializing the infinite tape lazily? < 1564669866 372962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: occasionally there's an obvious way to do it, often thare isn't though < 1564669868 491242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there < 1564670124 519648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never liked the rule 110 proof. < 1564670273 708713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To my mind the repeating pattern /extends/ the behavior of the cellular automaton in a non-trivial way, by encoding some special behavior at the boundary of the (properly) populated cells.) < 1564670354 126079 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazily initializing new cells when the finite but unbounded state needs to be expanded is a better way at looking at many languages (including CA) than saying they have infinite programs. < 1564670365 261763 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imo. < 1564670383 972450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: fwiw, I put some of my thoughts on the matter into the form of a language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Along_and_Across < 1564670481 221692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me that it's dangerous to ever say "X can't be Turing-complete" without a really good argument, and if various AaA variants were proven to be sub-TC it would help make TCness proofs using certain forms of infinite initial states more acceptable > 1564670526 24599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64933 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+229) 10Created page with "[[User: A]], apart from this language being stack-based, how is this language based off of [[Brace For Impact]]? ~~~~" < 1564670531 818435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite initial states lead to some weirdness even in the abstract, though, e.g. they make LBAs TC by giving them access to infinite memory < 1564670540 396397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that's true even with a blank state) < 1564670582 467349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any other standard proof technique for sub-TCness besides a) reduce to a known sub-TC language and b) solving the Halting problem? < 1564670623 546188 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that seems a rather sad state of affairs. < 1564670637 305752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :+to be < 1564670647 16384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'd argue a language that searches for counterexamples to the Riemann hypothesis and does nothing else is obviously sub-TC, yet doesn't fulfil either of those conditions < 1564670671 555707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I'm not sure why I think that way; despite being obviously sub-TC I'm not convined it's true < 1564670691 643814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the issue is that there's no way to provide it with a program to run, even indirectly/ < 1564670712 133182 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then it's not even a language? < 1564670726 629531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again this seems to be outside the space where "Turing complete" even makes sense anymore < 1564670733 921729 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so another technique is to prove that there are only finitely many essentially different programs? > 1564670747 32932 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64934&oldid=64932 5* 03A 5* (+138) 10 < 1564670759 168805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: that's a good way to express my thoughts, thanks < 1564670784 945217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess esolang design is like art, it's very hard to prove that there's /anything/ that isn't an esolang < 1564670798 503579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither because it's non-esoteric nor because it isn't a language < 1564670799 560360 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, we have an easy way to tell which of the finitely many classes any program falls into, while we need not know what the program does < 1564670819 403175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: yes, I like that < 1564670841 98522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm < 1564670856 341398 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of contrapositive Rice's theorem? < 1564670863 4859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about the language implemented by a truth-machine: it has two programs, 0 and 1, one of them halts, the other one doesn't < 1564670882 871620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you disregard I/O, given any Turing machine program, it's equivalent to one or the other of those two programs < 1564670893 701563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, of course, that the compile is uncomputable < 1564670906 364593 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's why it's important that it's easy to tell which program falls into which of our classes < 1564670915 281690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you need to assume the Church-Turing thesis to be able to say that the language is definitely sub-TC < 1564670931 841341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm < 1564670944 801895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe computational class equivalence is relative to the power of your compiler < 1564670959 282305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine a language that's TC but you can't compile into it in polynomial time < 1564670996 452476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An Odd Rewriting System might be one of those!) < 1564671012 87701 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's what I was talking about the other day < 1564671040 608122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, there were several different but related issues there and I was confused about which specific one you were looking at < 1564671049 4495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to say "reduction" instead of "compiler" < 1564671052 142432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about the >polynomial blowup in program size < 1564671064 410294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thought that's what you meant too < 1564671070 164731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the complexity of the compiler < 1564671082 159262 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh right, that's slightly different < 1564671095 165809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, making the output too large to generate in polytime is an easy way to require a >polytime compiler, but there might be other ways > 1564671101 969680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64935&oldid=64933 5* 03A 5* (+180) 10 > 1564671161 483406 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64936&oldid=64879 5* 03A 5* (-25) 10 < 1564671180 685804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, can you have a language where you need to be able to solve the subset sum problem to be able to write arbitrary programs in it? < 1564671189 425728 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can you make a polynomially-expanding clock in AORS? < 1564671203 204813 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously you can make exponential and constant-period ones > 1564671241 613849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64937&oldid=64936 5* 03A 5* (+118) 10 > 1564671263 284720 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64938&oldid=64935 5* 03A 5* (+14) 10 < 1564671331 672355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm… you can easily create a polynomially-widening bit of code, I can't see an obvious way to make that into a clock though > 1564671338 936969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64939&oldid=64938 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10 < 1564671385 308267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless… what if each such section of code were single-use, and triggered a copy of itself (which had since grown a little)? < 1564671391 783664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is possible > 1564671527 524408 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64940&oldid=64937 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10 < 1564671598 621035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea would be to start with some code that generates a static tape pattern like abaaaabbaaaaaaaaabbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbb… (that should be fairly easy, I think); the 'a's grow polynomially, the 'b's exponenntially > 1564671643 587064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Your Pillows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64941&oldid=64939 5* 03A 5* (-28) 10 < 1564671644 793387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when receiving an oddness signal from the left, a 'b' repeats it on the next cycle, then deletes itself if it didn't see such a repeat from its left < 1564671729 270412 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did manage to convince myself that a constant-period clock wouldn't work, because you at some point have more cells than the period, so need to re-use communication channels whos previous values you want to ignore, but the only operation you have is XOR, so you can't. < 1564671733 977508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have a second type of oddness signal that the 'a's use to communicate; if they see the first type of signal and it isn't immediately repeated, they all change into an alternative state that sends the second signal every cycle until they didn't see it on their left the previous cycle < 1564671768 796884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, we also need a 'c' to the left of the 'b's which generates the first sort of signal once when the second sort stops < 1564671782 410557 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you need to generate "clear channels". At the same time, you don't need to generate an exponential number of them. Only linear in the number of cells, probably, or at worst n^2 < 1564671789 188770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that produces a polynomially-growing clock but with exponentially-growing code < 1564671912 780901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, doesn't work directly, the 'a's interfere with each others' signals < 1564671933 174841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still make it work but you need the blocks of 'a's to have exponentially-growing width too < 1564671949 464387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you might not be able to generate them fast enough < 1564672033 117171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AORS is really unintuitive, there are a lot of operations that seem trivial but then you try to implement them and they don't work < 1564672072 258166 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the string grows expoenentially then it takes exponential time if you measure processing each character, which is probably the way you should measure it < 1564672116 52447 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, the computational class example in AaA reminds me of the proof that the emptiness of the intersection of two CFLs is undecidable < 1564672126 783350 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is a CFL and a regular language < 1564672152 913373 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intersection of a CFL and a regular language is context-free, if I am not mistaken < 1564672158 931102 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid question. have I ever written a python quine? < 1564672177 584046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: you're likely in a better place to answer that question than anyone esle is < 1564672189 932193 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1564672194 379872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it helps, I know that /I've/ written a python quine, but that doesn't really answer the question < 1564672208 844502 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I haven't, at least not a non-empty one < 1564672213 379413 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll fix that now < 1564672268 79617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most, maybe all, of my Python quines have been polyglots < 1564672564 952072 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually I think AaA is Turing-complete because mu-calculus < 1564672571 525654 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you follow me < 1564672602 100566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the mu-calculus well enough to follow < 1564672603 558950 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're searching for the smallest integer that fulfils some primitive condition. < 1564672631 692863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the FSM/FSM version, I'm searching for the smallest integer whose digitis match a particular regex < 1564672668 309339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, I'm regexing consecutive integers to produce a list of results, then trying to determine if those results match a particular regex < 1564672678 746030 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry apparently the word "calculus" is not standard for it < 1564672689 147904 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C-recursive_function < 1564672731 401380 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Intuitively, minimisation seeks—beginning the search from 0 and proceeding upwards—the smallest argument that causes the function to return zero; if there is no such argument, the search never terminates." < 1564672760 619365 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you add that operator to PR you get RE (i.e. it's Turing-complete) < 1564672775 78477 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the weakest system you could add that operator to and get something TC > 1564672785 755291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64942&oldid=64875 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1436) 10 < 1564672786 310170 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know of anything requiring it to be as powerful as PR < 1564672810 422542 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print((',')[k],end=',')')[k],end='') < 1564672813 472049 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,5,1,4,1,1,5:print((',')[k],end=',')')[k],end='') < 1564672867 877618 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me make that a bit nicer < 1564672981 484028 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print((',')[k],end=str())')[k],end=str()) < 1564672982 287337 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print(('\\','\'',',','for k in 3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4:print((',')[k],end=str())')[k],end=str()) < 1564672992 240919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think it was mentioned on the talk page that what you have is basically µ-recursion which only allows one use of the µ operator < 1564672994 52925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode µ < 1564672994 757411 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+00B5 MICRO SIGN] < 1564673001 920434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong µ, sorry, the other one isn't on my keyboard < 1564673021 812869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means you can have a different computational power inside and outside < 1564673023 469153 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if a while program only needs one while loop, ... ok, that's hardly the best sort of reasoning > 1564673030 91774 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64943&oldid=64942 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+367) 10 < 1564673050 161090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having only FSMs/regular languages inside the µ seems like it's a substantial cut to the power of the language < 1564673055 405629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so Plokmijnuhby noticed exactly what I noticed < 1564673089 501693 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but has a much cooler name than I do) < 1564673136 93405 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You definitely only need one minimization operation to be TC (he said without a shred of proof) < 1564673153 980359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's not quite the same < 1564673157 232522 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You search for the smallest Turing machine that does what you need and you simulate that and you're done < 1564673162 284428 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :μ ? < 1564673175 615841 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :μ ! < 1564673198 761428 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moo < 1564673203 669014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current AaA proof doesn't work in µ-calculus with only one minimization, as you need to put the minimization itself into a loop < 1564673216 900914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like, only one minimization is allowed in the program's /source code/ but you can put control flow around it < 1564673223 532523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode μ < 1564673224 225428 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU] < 1564673231 40093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode μ < 1564673231 676373 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU] < 1564673260 440867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if μ and µ didn't look identical I wouldn't have to unidecode them to see which was which < 1564673320 81011 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? font < 1564673321 174948 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ < 1564673403 216689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's no real reason for them to /look/ different, they're just /semantically/ different (one is pronounced "m", or "mu" if alone, and one is pronounced "micro") < 1564673455 22286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should stop being lazy and finally upgrade my compose key to RFC 1345, even if it's a little less intuitive than the standard compose key layout < 1564673522 608933 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think they're only historically different < 1564673567 613829 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite as how the t with comma under and the t with cedilla under are now different letters when they used to be the same, the two mus are now the same but we have to support both encodings < 1564673702 128845 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that analogy makes no sense < 1564673787 93526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's a character in CP437 which was intended to be used for both the German ß and the Greek beta… < 1564673801 13014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and those don't even /look/ the same, just kind of similar, but are definitely semantically different) < 1564673819 373852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the semantic difference between μ and µ is probably relevant for things like screen readers < 1564673840 971840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compare "µ-architecture" to "m-architecture", for example) < 1564673901 807041 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, because that encoding was originally made for unchangable 256 sized character sets burned into ROM, with fonts that are 14 or 8 pixel high on a monitor, or similarly small on a printer < 1564674132 536872 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once used a typewriter that had no "1" key. It was assumed you'd just use a lowercase "l" for it. < 1564674206 659530 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2015/04/ibm-character-fonts.html nice listing of all the original fonts < 1564674236 599953 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, old typewriters were like that, no "1", no "0", no "í", no "ú", no "ű". < 1564674792 781608 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can kind of imagine μ(FA(μ(CFL))) (if that's what that AaA construction is, still pretty fuzzy on that) being Turing-complete < 1564674823 907413 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some construction in the vicinity of that < 1564674833 451448 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FA"? < 1564674839 29940 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSM if you like < 1564674846 319431 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Football Association < 1564674848 718808 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Finite Automaton) < 1564674856 336159 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564675027 270812 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564675043 128861 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to do an esolang around something like μ(CFL), by coincidence. Haven't gotten around to it yet < 1564675079 555454 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always something more interesting on the other side of the fence < 1564675084 154159 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1564675091 283927 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A la prochaine. < 1564675093 376226 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1564675323 305996 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cfor k in b'2030401010201030104010505':print((chr(39),',','for k in b','2030401010201030104010505',':print((chr(39),',')[k-48],end=str())')[k-48],end=str()) < 1564675327 283634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for k in b'2030401010201030104010505':print((chr(39),',','for k in b','2030401010201030104010505',':print((chr(39),',')[k-48],end=str())')[k-48],end=str()) < 1564675336 527413 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one is longer, but there's something I can do with it < 1564675397 658283 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvwzwrrcnxtjvuhr JOIN :#esoteric < 1564676233 426150 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cs='1606261656265636564656563664';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=',')for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end='')for k in s] < 1564676234 201644 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s='1606261656265636564656563664';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=',')for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end='')for k in s] < 1564676414 700077 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cs='150525154525453545453';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s] < 1564676417 124891 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s='150525154525453545453';[print((s,'s=',';[print((s,',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s]',',',chr(39))[int(k)],end=str())for k in s] < 1564676419 256665 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better < 1564676446 458911 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there would probably be much shorter ones if I didn't try this ridiculous indexing thing < 1564677089 420596 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1173 < 1564677090 132380 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1173: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1564677457 455599 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564679701 221662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564680315 437936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1564680358 309879 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564680578 283685 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564681139 866882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric > 1564682387 836548 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64944&oldid=64911 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+298) 10 > 1564682409 714985 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64945&oldid=64944 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+4) 10 < 1564683236 397492 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564685379 906835 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the chonky orange cat is back < 1564685914 876337 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564685915 172369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yay < 1564685918 467707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat < 1564686012 205614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat < 1564686017 129328 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis cat < 1564686017 767804 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal. < 1564686020 587358 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat(1) - concatenate files and print on the standard output \ cat(1p) - concatenate and print files \ CaT(1hackeso) - no description \ cAt(1hackeso) - no description < 1564686148 178528 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat < 1564686174 497770 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dog < 1564686175 100774 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found < 1564686178 718242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686202 895553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery cat < 1564686203 664963 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cat is an animal with four legs. It's nice to pet, especially when it's a baby cat, called a kitten. Or it's the unix "cat" command. It takes a filename (or many) and prints the contents of that (those) file(s). < 1564686235 848921 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :boringly accurate < 1564686376 132056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e s+tp:+tps+ tmflry/wiki < 1564686377 946372 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686382 336277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery wiki < 1564686383 84652 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is at https//esolangs.org/wiki < 1564686387 420430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1564686395 916432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e s+tps/+tps:/+ tmflry/wiki < 1564686397 504131 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564686400 405454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery wiki < 1564686401 296493 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is at https://esolangs.org/wiki < 1564686410 39382 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564686417 557725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd edited all the urls in the wisdome earlier, but this one fell aside < 1564687923 930990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? right < 1564687927 173208 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right is not two wrongs but three lefts. < 1564688325 783059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right is the direction you should face towards when the baby metroid drains you, in order to be able to stand up slightly faster. < 1564689224 686185 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric > 1564689370 393064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* 10New user account < 1564689496 83597 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, is it feasible to calculate the first few decimal digits of Graham's number? 🤔 < 1564689514 988141 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graham's number is of the form 3^3^3^3^... < 1564689547 280830 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculating the first few digits entails calculating, what is it. < 1564689557 788319 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(3^3^3^3^...) mod log(10), isn't it? > 1564689606 680135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64946&oldid=64797 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+146) 10 > 1564689643 623311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64947&oldid=64946 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (-5) 10ok then > 1564689680 517667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64948&oldid=64947 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+65) 10I have no idea what I'm doing < 1564689762 612469 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564689943 735022 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564689947 770330 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1564691267 905369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64949 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+2326) 10Created page with "==Forget== '''Forget''' is a stack-based language where pointers are poisonous and the interpreter doesn't do a good job of remembering non-constant values ==Syntax== Instruct..." > 1564691391 745925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64950&oldid=64949 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+49) 10 > 1564691445 398087 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64951&oldid=64900 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+13) 10 > 1564691507 844815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64952&oldid=64950 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+7) 10 > 1564691578 647873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64953&oldid=64952 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+183) 10 > 1564691593 709923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64954&oldid=64953 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+1) 10 > 1564691614 17142 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64955&oldid=64560 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+23) 10 > 1564691832 790664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64956&oldid=64951 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+23) 10/* B */ > 1564691893 553129 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64957&oldid=64943 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Turing complete proof */ > 1564692334 552473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64958&oldid=64859 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+136) 10 > 1564692368 773062 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64959&oldid=64958 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+2) 10/* Brace For Impact */ > 1564692375 671196 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64960&oldid=64959 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10/* Brace For Impact */ < 1564692872 41933 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1564693478 297981 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564695732 373355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jussef Swissen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64961&oldid=64617 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-20) 10 > 1564696119 921029 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64962&oldid=64957 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+104) 10Actually gave a program > 1564696226 147689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64963&oldid=64962 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+110) 10/* Turing complete Proof */ > 1564697009 197771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64964&oldid=64963 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+671) 10 > 1564697019 362757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brace For Impact14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64965&oldid=64964 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10/* = Hello World Program */ < 1564698227 840142 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564698605 807458 :dog_star_!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqansztzearqalna JOIN :#esoteric < 1564698941 26777 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564699040 351074 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-negxohmuvosypbht QUIT :*.net *.split < 1564699040 575774 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :*.net *.split > 1564699189 390262 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64966&oldid=64892 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+629) 10 < 1564699215 837582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: chonky orange cats are good luck < 1564699287 20721 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564699289 155634 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1564699290 861573 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't all cats < 1564699395 388119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1564699778 227885 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564702000 593886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-164.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1564702667 598915 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there are any rational functions that are Turing-complete when iterated. < 1564702725 864437 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :A piecewise affine function R*R -> R*R is Turing-complete when iterated. You can use a real number as a stack plus a bit of finite state, and two stacks and finite state are enough to make a Turing machine. < 1564702764 455675 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be clear, I mean rational functions that are Turing-complete when iterated on the real numbers. < 1564702770 781098 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the same question for complex numbers is also interesting. < 1564702925 869726 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's almost certainly easier to make a computer by iterating on the complex numbers rather than the real numbers. < 1564702966 641602 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the Mandelbrot set Turing-complete? Can you convert a Turing machine into a complex number such that the complex number escapes if and only if the Turing machine halts? > 1564704281 483949 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64967&oldid=64966 5* 03A 5* (+166) 10/* Concern */ < 1564704868 621252 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :also_uplime < 1564705569 430497 :also_uplime!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :izabera < 1564707495 875481 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564707901 316511 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :🤔 . o O ( the inverse image of 0 under x -> x^2 has two elements, but both of them are 0. ) > 1564709321 621780 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forget14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64968&oldid=64954 5* 03IAmAnIssu 5* (+389) 10Added new instructions + cat program < 1564709827 214435 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jpcxqydtxpoprjui QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564710253 979244 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-pfpxzzjpqwyehavd JOIN :#esoteric < 1564710293 114697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: If you're representing complex numbers by a pair of computable reals, I expect a positive answer, mainly because computable reals are specified in terms of infinite computations. If you have to pick a *rational* complex number (in finite time) then this becomes a potentially interesting problem... < 1564710365 739887 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, here's what I had in mind. < 1564710398 673601 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "machine" consists of a particular rational function with rational complex coefficients. < 1564710415 498735 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The input is a rational complex number, and executing the machine consists of repeatedly applying the function to the input. < 1564710460 771837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I'd be happier with saying Q*Q -> Q*Q rather than R*R -> R*R :) < 1564710493 286137 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "halting basin" which consists of... let's say it has to consist of an open ball with a rational complex center and rational radius. < 1564710522 748898 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine halts if and only if the state enters the halting basin at some point. < 1564710546 791597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, is the Mandelbrot set connected? I thought not... < 1564710553 680909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1564710559 711522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't matter. Sorry. < 1564710566 179933 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is... is that an open problem? < 1564710573 882854 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It definitely seems like it's path-connected, but maybe that's not known. < 1564710588 535064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: I have never looked at this formally. < 1564710678 880368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just played with fractint ages ago and thought that it looked disconnected with mandelbrot islands everywhere. But that may well be misleading... rendering would miss narrow paths. < 1564710745 488609 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the map x -> x^2 + 1 is not injective, so there's at least a potential of producing islands. < 1564710746 390712 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it's been proved that the Mandelbrot set is connected. < 1564710764 864826 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm fractint < 1564710818 105852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"During the early 1990s the program was the definitive fractal generating program for personal computers." < 1564710916 841517 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1564710927 706841 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember playing with it at my grandpa's house as a kid < 1564710929 148954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was fun < 1564710939 390023 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS program < 1564711174 685484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I'm misremembering what exactly the Mandelbrot set is. < 1564711221 867599 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, don't listen to the johnathan coulton song < 1564711225 368470 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he defines it wrong :P < 1564711294 908740 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember coding a mandelbrot set renderer in TI-83 BASIC < 1564711315 92860 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took about half an hour to render a 4 color greyscale image (shown by rapidly switching between stored monochrome images) < 1564711403 320464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I read somewhere the display supports 4 level, although this cannot be done with the built-in system. < 1564711424 34189 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the cycling looks a lot better if you do it in assembly < 1564711437 822192 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm games for the TI-83 had greyscale and relatively high framerate graphics < 1564711459 412811 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic command to recall a stored picture was slow enough that you couldn't really do flicker free greyscale < 1564711459 574041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, definitely it would be faster < 1564711469 545767 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only dipped my toe into TI-83 assembly though < 1564711471 468704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wasting CPU cycles on finding smooth numbers... < 1564711504 437239 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you could do C as well, using sdcc, but I'm not sure how many people have < 1564711513 652834 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for TI-89 the TIGCC toolchain was pretty popular < 1564711518 752248 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have TI-92, although only used the built-in system. It is slow, but at least it has a full keyboard and also a built-in programming environment. < 1564711519 360363 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never quite got it working though :? < 1564711527 12702 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought a TI-92 at a hamfest recently < 1564711529 367822 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for nostalgia reasons < 1564711533 571284 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I might do something with it one day < 1564711541 448074 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI-89/92 basic is much more powerful than TI-83 basic < 1564711595 102082 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(challenge: Find a number larger than (10^50-1)/9 = 111...111 (50 ones) that is only divisible by the first 27 primes (2..103) and is as small as you can make it. (If you can find the minimum that would be impressive, but I can't.)) < 1564711647 801311 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although it is still slow. There are things that can be done to improve the speed a bit, though, such as using the sort commands for shuffling (kind of like using "ORDER BY RANDOM()" in SQL) < 1564711654 600171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This resulted from a question on ##math two days ago and I've already spent quite some effort on this.) < 1564711692 10207 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: interesting < 1564711915 848544 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564712062 436229 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So essentially, find the smallest linear combination of log(2), log(3), log(5), ..., log(103), with nonnegative integer coefficients, which is larger than log(111...111)? < 1564712136 288336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure if you want to deal with irrational numbers :) < 1564712243 374320 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem has got to have a name. < 1564712261 812884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(double precision is not enough for this) < 1564712936 166286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Tbf, as far as I can make up, double precision is just barely not enough. So playing around with that should be perfectly fine.) < 1564713147 89792 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use arbitrary-precision integers. < 1564714232 225445 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564714589 572097 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64969&oldid=64926 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+308) 10/* Contest controller */ > 1564714771 267478 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64970&oldid=64861 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+43) 10/* Implicit Input */ new section > 1564716247 16615 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64971&oldid=64211 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+412) 10/* Special Bits */ > 1564716341 929137 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64972&oldid=64971 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+163) 10/* Implicit Input */ < 1564716741 471572 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvwzwrrcnxtjvuhr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564719108 369317 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqgrkqxxhizusmco JOIN :#esoteric < 1564719826 198376 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1564720678 632491 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64973&oldid=64969 5* 03A 5* (+123) 10 > 1564721151 492721 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64974&oldid=64970 5* 03A 5* (+245) 10 > 1564721202 624926 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64975&oldid=64974 5* 03A 5* (+1233) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ > 1564721211 792378 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64976&oldid=64975 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ > 1564721228 667559 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64977&oldid=64976 5* 03A 5* (+5) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ > 1564721338 247707 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64978&oldid=64977 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ My brain is a lot worse in the day than in the night. > 1564721618 484046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64979&oldid=64978 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ < 1564721631 334976 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564721960 78944 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64980&oldid=64972 5* 03A 5* (+245) 10/* Special Bits */ This might be implemented. However, I will see how JonoCode9374 reacts. > 1564722023 786925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64981&oldid=64980 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* No EOI's after inputs */ < 1564722302 48698 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564724406 740872 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1564724430 379714 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1564725420 610316 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`complain < 1564725451 316170 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. > 1564725517 163731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64982&oldid=64979 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Backwards compatibility issue and lengthy code issue */ > 1564726746 170183 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What Mains Numbers?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64983&oldid=64866 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Implementations */ Cosmetics > 1564731148 616897 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64984&oldid=64925 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+33) 10 < 1564731741 447726 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqgrkqxxhizusmco QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564732248 946112 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564733084 638947 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564733233 135159 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564733258 945375 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64985&oldid=64981 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* Cat program */ There is implicit input now. > 1564733326 765426 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64986&oldid=64985 5* 03A 5* (-4) 10/* Example Programs */ Find and add implicit imput if possible. > 1564733474 487105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64987&oldid=64986 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* Truth-machine */ In my PR, Keg also takes one line of input if it tries to duplicate an empty stack. Now I can save 1 byte. < 1564733817 818159 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564735362 328375 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I think the following default assumptions hold: If I have an esolang and I don't say outright that its programs can be infinite, they can't be. If I do say outright that they can be infinite, but I don't say they need not be computable, they must be computable. < 1564735477 985414 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have time I'll try to make an esowiki page about infinite programs. < 1564735960 506631 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the more frustrating things about language design is, you start designing a language, and you get to a point where there are several options, and each option has interesting implications that you would like to explore, but they might go in a different direction than your original idea < 1564736064 827479 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should you ignore them and try to get to your original goal, or should you go down them and end up with something you have no good idea how it will turn out? > 1564737888 980666 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64988&oldid=64852 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+50) 10/* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */ > 1564738573 874736 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64989&oldid=57940 5* 03A 5* (+81) 10 > 1564738665 69131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64990&oldid=62309 5* 03A 5* (+133) 10 < 1564738968 450655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should computability be a requirement? < 1564739006 478034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a language interpreter can just get an oracle representing a program without caring how it works. < 1564739040 841158 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assumption about what you allow, rather than a requirement. If you want your language to accept uncomputable reals in input you should say so, that's all. < 1564739165 919639 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess whether it seems unnatural depends on how you specify infinite programs. > 1564739254 675507 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64991&oldid=64988 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+236) 10/* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */ < 1564739535 4409 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a language accepts uncomputable infinite programs, it doesn't seem to make much sense to ask whether that language is Turing-complete. It can do the triviallest things yet still produce output that a TM never could. > 1564739776 330457 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64992&oldid=64991 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+608) 10/* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */ < 1564741086 549615 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564741092 350402 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1564741153 525397 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi andrewd3 < 1564741179 231525 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you that guy who implemented deadfish in deadfish cafe {:} < 1564741210 590601 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure did that thing < 1564741215 795246 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooo < 1564741220 678687 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :special meeting < 1564741249 489934 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what eso stuff have you done recently < 1564741331 618180 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :if any < 1564741346 110768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not terribly much. A string-rewriting language that looks and acts like a concatenative language. < 1564741368 638424 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I actually started a long time ago, only finished it up this year. < 1564741375 69757 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at that you posted at a palinfdromic time < 1564741376 912852 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:22:21 < 1564741457 36888 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564741480 866674 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc or more moder nstuff < 1564741591 759318 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :vote now on your phones < 1564741622 344392 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "Find a number larger than (10^50-1)/9 that is only divisible by the first 27 primes and is as small as you can make it" => nice, that looks tractable > 1564741625 90737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64993&oldid=64984 5* 03A 5* (+232) 10/* Example Code */ < 1564741642 793499 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewd3: I've got Opera Mini on my phone. Very advanced stuff < 1564741654 183172 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye < 1564741663 908757 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: can you make smaller versions of that problem for which you can find an exact solution, as testcases? < 1564741668 487418 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/make/define/ < 1564741694 720552 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thing to make this better would be if ais523 exploded from the sky and that guy named urban who made BF would send himself back to esos for a while < 1564741701 400134 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :(urban works for search.ch now) < 1564741822 600111 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :eso idea: eso using the commands 123456789A (the digits of bijective base 10) whose source is interpreted as an integer in bijective base 10 < 1564741836 178770 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is how many characters the source needs to be for the program to run as it does < 1564741847 14944 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :a family of these actually, using different bijective bases < 1564741876 948921 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: languages with infinite inputs => I think we talked a bit about the case of Waterfall Model. The default version is to allow only rational numbers. If you allow any real number in the program, then you can encode any infinite bit sequence in a way that the program can extract (slowly). < 1564741901 707589 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea could work < 1564742212 266751 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idea: make a language that is one big formula < 1564742471 754752 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm, you did scale that well. it is somewhat above what's easy to solve, but very easy to verify, so it makes a good challenge < 1564742479 854853 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with the idea of bijective bases unfortunately < 1564742489 638958 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :bijective is basically without 0 < 1564742497 420483 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what a bijective base is > 1564742646 611189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Incident14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64994&oldid=56758 5* 03B jonas 5* (+27) 10[[Category:Pattern-based]] < 1564742689 942443 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564742775 877423 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :doot > 1564743319 520176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64995&oldid=64982 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+13) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ < 1564743333 26467 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: language with the feature to twist a tape < 1564743597 810462 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :chat dead < 1564743695 145380 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is tape twisting supposed to mean < 1564743713 437821 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally take the tape and twist it < 1564743717 873191 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a half twist < 1564743722 799337 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a joke language idea i have < 1564743969 792470 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that be different to just having 2 tapes to switch between? < 1564743985 670150 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't < 1564743991 133804 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke idea < 1564743994 439153 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you twist too much the tape can snap < 1564744004 123440 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it would just jam the drive < 1564744013 602691 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can push twists around? < 1564744052 701081 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1564744060 864429 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also buy glue and make a mobius strip tape < 1564744064 221341 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :to work on < 1564744095 808837 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i say "manipulate the tape" i mean "play around with it like you would IRL" < 1564744173 804195 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i plan on adding bubble wrap to my language < 1564744175 322113 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a tape < 1564744318 632000 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb i don't understand what you mean < 1564744355 13535 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :x= => =x < 1564744362 402814 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pushing twists would be fun for a dual-taped unifunge < 1564744374 785072 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1564744375 941668 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do that < 1564744382 829207 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can push twists aroun < 1564744409 440958 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :however this depends on what tape you're using, if you're using duct tape it'll take quite a bit of work to untwist it < 1564744428 299818 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with befunge for this is its verbosity < 1564744440 264280 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmhmm < 1564744446 575056 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand but mmhmm < 1564744447 802620 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :go on < 1564744513 255365 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a lot of commands to manipulate a specific cell < 1564744609 499019 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqbthxralylgghqi JOIN :#esoteric < 1564744721 347247 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is bad right? < 1564745441 817012 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :oo < 1564745447 693378 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1564745627 994192 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have multiple tapes and multiple twists and can't push twists through other twists, you have Braid Theory < 1564745651 841364 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1564745817 535570 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, but if you add "theory" to anything, it starts to sound more impressive. I don't know why pseudosciences don't do it more often. < 1564745835 733684 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do make up for it by "quantum" < 1564745881 496367 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recently learned about a set of seamingly magical frequencies that fix DNA errors while listening to them < 1564745887 191894 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hillarious < 1564745931 652701 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? seamingly < 1564745932 890772 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :seamingly? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564745937 885171 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sea ming < 1564745938 876253 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sea ming? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1564745940 267356 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564745962 59304 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-ming < 1564745967 339183 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ming programed in C < 1564746196 608355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Braid Theory is just Knot Theory where your knot has been cut though and the strands are laid flat on a table < 1564746264 930909 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a first grade subject chris < 1564746266 594999 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :we all know it < 1564746724 778324 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1564746799 233044 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's like a lemming or a sea mink < 1564746818 753399 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes > 1564747155 735489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:An Odd Rewriting System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64996&oldid=64792 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+686) 101D-1D-CA = [[2C]] < 1564747765 166271 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, the sea mink is extinct < 1564747787 801656 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do have lemmings though < 1564747790 76245 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's put them to use < 1564747828 643282 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas joke programming language with lemmings? < 1564748611 523593 :andrewd3!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564749828 562660 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zheng He was a sea ming > 1564751863 149383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64997&oldid=64995 5* 03A 5* (+265) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ < 1564752065 223490 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564752609 189522 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echo Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64998&oldid=58417 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+5738) 10Turing-completeness proof (this is comparable to the flawed proof I was working on earlier, but fixed the flaw via placing padding in Encoding B so that the position of the tag system mod m is not lost while processing it) > 1564752673 969614 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rook14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64999&oldid=63785 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-9) 10/* Instructions */ < 1564752683 572973 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? golay < 1564752684 632290 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :golay? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ > 1564752781 826701 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65000&oldid=64990 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+31) 10 < 1564752896 991194 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: at least Julia provides the div1 and mod1 functions for computing with 1-based indexes < 1564752934 615020 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564752946 331555 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm the same andrew from before < 1564752979 563559 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewd12: the same as andrewd3? you can't roll a 12 on a d3 < 1564753007 417270 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas i'm breaking the laws of reality however i want, mister < 1564753029 928519 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make a programming language that uses bubble wrap > 1564753213 730586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65001 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+644) 10Tell User: A how Feature golf needs restrictions. > 1564753240 134011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65002&oldid=65001 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10 < 1564754916 792623 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :oof < 1564755087 563164 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone explain reversible computing? < 1564755272 615035 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :n + 2 - 2 = n? < 1564755286 99743 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1564755287 499440 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1564755305 990614 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up myname < 1564755336 248578 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ [n=.10+?80 < 1564755336 877366 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 59 < 1564755347 342592 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1564755348 314044 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (n + 2) - 2 < 1564755348 999774 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 59 < 1564755349 61104 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1564755353 757492 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ((n + 2) - 2) = n < 1564755354 473266 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 1 < 1564755358 16777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems right < 1564755421 978402 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob < 1564755424 817497 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you made esos < 1564755704 974000 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1564755950 175898 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: programming language that i forgot the specifications too < 1564755984 812126 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called c++ < 1564756014 375426 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but only i know the specifications and there is one program and ti has not comments > 1564756047 709353 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65003&oldid=65002 5* 03A 5* (+240) 10 < 1564756066 929016 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up > 1564756280 52071 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65004&oldid=65003 5* 03A 5* (+353) 10 < 1564756441 27492 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay > 1564756455 425945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65005&oldid=65000 5* 03A 5* (+422) 10Old post added > 1564756473 286700 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65006&oldid=65005 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* brainfuck */ W < 1564756479 66676 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1564756500 331039 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1564756517 17037 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a shorter attention span, as in, i expect more active forums > 1564756608 550125 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65007&oldid=65004 5* 03A 5* (+48) 10 > 1564756702 509230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65008&oldid=65006 5* 03A 5* (+73) 10 > 1564756826 132053 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65009&oldid=65008 5* 03A 5* (+114) 10/* Competitive usage */ > 1564756948 600514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Golf/Feature golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65010&oldid=65007 5* 03A 5* (+307) 10 < 1564757242 540681 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1564757243 768829 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress > 1564757365 573868 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Swissen Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65011&oldid=64618 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+21) 10 > 1564757593 960771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65012&oldid=64989 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10/* See also */ > 1564757613 239175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65013&oldid=65012 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-2) 10/* See also */ > 1564757870 574934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category:Golfing language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65014&oldid=53187 5* 03A 5* (+102) 10 < 1564757910 130635 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :joosef swassen < 1564757977 279122 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose that the offical #esoteric 64-byte random number shall be 0x2508FFC710F11E6303996A6F4B6C4AA82D338DB394B15E63AA7A14FF4A57A67B2B1E1E27EC196DD0909721A5E70ADD90304C0E471EBFA5A0FEBBF05C0871D712 . < 1564758003 936567 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :why that numbert < 1564758026 544218 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's random, so there's no reason. < 1564758034 909615 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any other random number would work just as well < 1564758185 811116 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about < 1564758202 948790 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x2500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000871D712 < 1564758204 316744 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, I recommend that the official #esoteric character set of 12 different characters for transmitting messages redundantly through a 7-bit serial line shall be: +,07HOSTafz} < 1564758220 138358 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :furthermore < 1564758247 463206 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way we can recover any 1-bit error and detect any 2-bit error, and if parity is used on the serial line, then we can also detect 3-bit errors. < 1564758271 526446 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recommend that the official #esoteric character set for transmitting 1 random character per 100 years be aofd>XMC{: < 1564758400 123112 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrew: that doesn't even let us detect one-bit errors < 1564758440 457610 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas it's random < 1564758586 136657 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1564758587 474994 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :chat ded < 1564758588 274779 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1564758898 377895 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need to transmit one random character per one 100 years? < 1564758912 918602 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do < 1564758916 138235 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't question it < 1564758954 219647 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the invite to the esoteric language discord server? < 1564758958 202399 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know it zzo < 1564758983 798061 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I prefer IRC < 1564758999 601217 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1564759148 380986 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -REi discord wisdom < 1564759149 110240 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC is not such a complicated protocol, and does not require that you use only one possible service, and actually has other possibilities too. You can even use IRC without specialized software for it (although it is convenient to have special IRC software, to do auto pong and other stuff) < 1564759149 872587 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564759159 292855 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ there's no such thing in the wisdom database < 1564759177 799139 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayyy zz < 1564759188 781534 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :your twoducks idea is cool < 1564759233 828086 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :we < 1564759267 910373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will you add a NNTP for esolang on the esolangs.org server? < 1564759275 546902 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should there be a discord? there is absolutely no need for seperate channels < 1564759289 598476 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an NNTP < 1564759347 931831 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: the irc channel is logged, so if someone wants to mirror its contents to a discord channel, I don't see a problem with it, feel free < 1564759362 240432 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a discord < 1564759367 291568 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's gone < 1564759379 528025 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was tryna get to lyricly but couldn't < 1564759468 745534 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564759504 207058 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was an early teaching version/impl of Haskell called "Gofer", apparenly this was short for "Good for equational reasoning" < 1564759541 504439 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know more obscure languages c < 1564759545 553745 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :chris* < 1564759555 164121 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might < 1564759564 585960 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages more obscure than C? < 1564759602 30411 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a tough one < 1564759602 237809 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1564759605 623162 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :obscure langs in general < 1564759620 568144 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Niakwa Programming Language is pretty obscure < 1564759638 9468 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have only seen references to it, never seen it itself < 1564759658 171590 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the *most obscure* < 1564759662 428019 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm challenging you here < 1564759697 413602 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to program in Glulx? < 1564759709 763665 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1564759802 985025 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a research computer called MACHO designed (in the 60's or 70's) at the uni in my hometown. I imagine its instruction set is pretty darn obscure. < 1564759821 802299 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are probably the two obscurest languages I know of < 1564759839 135061 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna make a programming language where the data is on a literal tape < 1564759844 531210 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a random erro < 1564759852 792002 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YOUR WRITING ON THE TAPE WAS TOO UNINTELIGIBLE" < 1564759923 320028 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can cut up the tape < 1564759923 430648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that MACHO computer works? < 1564759931 119060 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can scratch it < 1564759933 884760 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and anything else < 1564759986 130826 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I have (or had) the manual and I started scanning it, years and years ago, but never finished. I don't think the instruction set was very special. > 1564759992 851038 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65015 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+513) 10Created page with "'''256''' is a [[Stack]]-based [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It was made for Code [[Golf]], and it's a Turing..." < 1564760030 477712 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, with a name like "MACHO" I think it must have been the 70's < 1564760061 581099 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :is zzo particularly famous in the eso community < 1564760064 942076 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if there *is* one) < 1564760101 91572 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564760207 251385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564760224 217001 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais < 1564760252 478465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1564760291 241855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have been online earlier – I was reading IRC – but freenode's web IRC thing no longer works at work (they have a new one that uses some sort of fancy connection that's blocked), so now ais523_ can only read, not send < 1564760315 113482 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :F < 1564760370 607089 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re Gofer, I was going to say, Haskell is good for equational reasoning, which is close to equational logic, which corresponds to universal algebra. I think this means Haskell is a term algebra (approximately speaking)? < 1564760371 321988 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's nethack work < 1564760391 588212 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to explore this idea, anyway < 1564760399 850147 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't this the esoteric computer programming community? < 1564760416 646490 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it isn't < 1564760528 802026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewd12: if you're interested in learning about NetHack I suggest asking in a NetHack-related channel < 1564760541 234985 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1564760543 582463 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just asking < 1564760549 386756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#nethack is the "official" channel but fairly dead nowadays, #hardfought is where most of the discussion tends to be < 1564760574 244789 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for wrong channel < 1564760586 947362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what happened is that the NetHack community was split over a lot of channels with different people in various subsets, and #hardfought ended up with most of the people who mattered and so all the discussion migrated there) < 1564760596 846355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can't tell you how Nethack works. We can only tell you if Nethack is Turing-complete or now < 1564760598 737524 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not < 1564760602 322803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's OK to post offtopic things here, you just might not get knowledgeable answers < 1564760607 13867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it isn't, much to my annoyance < 1564760619 173326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it has any way to read arbitrary amounts of memory < 1564760622 405280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider this a bug :-D < 1564760623 619432 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so < 1564760627 711137 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais the dragon roared < 1564760636 621922 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone, to #hardfought soared < 1564760644 205668 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :he asked "WHY IS IT NOT TURING COMPLETE" < 1564760656 515249 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to get answers from the Coding Elite < 1564760664 848137 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :they told him "dude, it's just a game" < 1564760677 722356 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we're in dungeons, not searching for IT fame" < 1564760683 423125 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais realized he'd wastes his life < 1564760697 637160 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and backto #esoteric he ventured, in strife < 1564760701 177624 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that a good poem < 1564760798 225661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't normally expect poems in here < 1564760813 512250 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1564760818 793184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've been of varying quality < 1564760820 149802 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just a thing i wrote on the spot < 1564760835 962712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a haiku a while back which was either thought-provoking or terrible depending on your point of view < 1564760846 241365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not written by me, by another channel regular) < 1564760861 150571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it went something like this: "beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / sent from my iphone" < 1564760874 719507 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :haikus suck, man < 1564760907 781354 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one makes no sense, it's bad < 1564760912 252122 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :refrigerator < 1564761222 380538 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 what about that feather language < 1564761243 659852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't talk about Feather :-P < 1564761253 182524 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1564761258 58437 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather's a cool idea < 1564761261 466837 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do we not talk about it < 1564761299 134052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally madness-inducing < 1564761304 78123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like it should work, but it doesn't < 1564761706 39667 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1564761858 783088 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm making feather? (nthe language name is "feather?) < 1564761862 349642 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :an approximation of feather < 1564761960 483450 :andrewd12!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs NICK :andrewtheircer > 1564763020 937995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65016&oldid=64945 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+362) 10 < 1564764002 980172 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564764028 549348 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564765063 386364 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564765192 519045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564765238 577623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: try https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net as an alternate webchat < 1564765297 225595 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is Nethack Turing-complete or now? < 1564765347 435839 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564765350 44282 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I don't think it has any way to read arbitrary amounts of memory" => um, do you mean like, per input command? > 1564765634 932040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65017&oldid=64993 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+121) 10 < 1564765650 612543 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :texas < 1564765711 723747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm thinking in terms of setting up some sort of self-perpetuating shain reaction < 1564765716 347523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chain reaction < 1564765778 533372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but in what sense? can I put a weight on my . key? paste a longer constant command string repeatedly? < 1564765791 577168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just want between two commands? < 1564765799 184400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming no action from the player, maybe they're a blue jelly with an amulet of unchanging in a boulder fort < 1564765818 179284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can work too < 1564765831 898665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or trigger a bug in the travel command where it loops < 1564765876 981959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are two difficulties why this rarely or never happens, one is that nethack tries to be balanced in a way that reactions don't get exponential, the other is that there's too much randomness < 1564765889 978012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's hard to rely on the same thing happening all the time < 1564765916 177274 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooo < 1564765918 601391 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack eso < 1564766047 251831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to imagine a StackFlow implementation in a variant, where you have like ten piles of corpses, a creature zaps a wand of undead turning (this doesn't happen) in a direction depending on the type of that creature, the beam rebounds from the walls (this also doesn't happen), hits the right pile, and revives the corpse on top of that pile < 1564766185 22517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the first monster dies, but that's the easy part < 1564766518 460137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the hard part is that they have to be able to walk to multiple piles and leave specific other corpses as death drops there, before zapping the wand < 1564766541 603733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess at that point I could just imagine Waterfall Model instead, but even then it just doesn't work out < 1564766813 16415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps data is stored by a large cyclic queue of monsters wondering around in a directed loop that involves a trapdoor and a stairs up, and a protagonist who has to keep climbing up and down the stairs < 1564767161 53978 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564767250 83101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 295.30*70 < 1564767250 724080 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 20671 > 1564767564 795478 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65018&oldid=65017 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1161) 10 < 1564767676 675871 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1564767744 713384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 295.30×₇₀ < 1564767745 936289 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ true. < 1564767752 502054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 295.30×₇₀ẉ < 1564767753 588697 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :20671.0 \ \ true. < 1564767769 273466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, was checking to see if there'd be a .0 (and indeed, if the number would parse correctly) < 1564767809 531699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 70×↙295.30ẉ < 1564767810 555600 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ false. < 1564767819 112906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, I thought that might happen :-D < 1564767837 896904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 295.30×↙70ẉ < 1564767838 984886 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :20671.0 \ \ true. < 1564767952 765180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I realized last week where the name "brachylog" comes from. "brachy" means "short", and "log" is an abbreviation for "logic", the same one as used in "prolog" < 1564767958 917101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should have been obvious < 1564768001 424505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but none of the other golf languages or competitions seem to use "brachy" in their name > 1564768286 521618 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65019&oldid=65018 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1) 10 > 1564768807 968643 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65020&oldid=65019 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+123) 10 < 1564769996 232207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the docs of Brachylog are rather unclear < 1564770391 247530 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1564771355 59518 :jussgirl!ac3a8890@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.172.58.136.144 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564771361 34738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language design is ... odd too, definitely esoteric < 1564771368 628831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a lot of things I don't understand from the docs < 1564771410 301467 :jussgirl!ac3a8890@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.172.58.136.144 PART :#esoteric < 1564774553 194869 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqbthxralylgghqi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564775544 538561 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh wow there was more actix drama < 1564775838 377010 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's actix? < 1564776100 530510 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http server library written in rust < 1564776133 524605 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a dev who habitually switched off rust's safety checks at the drop of a hat and didn't understand how to write unsafe code at all < 1564776151 808466 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see how that'd lead to drama < 1564776175 324400 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564776213 988707 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because he also had this incredibly defensive mentality towards the whole thing to the point where he'd just close pull requests fixing needlessly unsafe code and tell them to fuck off < 1564776314 993482 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the rust community cult of niceness doesn't let you say that this guy is being an antisocial dick and you shouldn't use his projects, at least without a bunch of white knights saying that you're horrible ungrateful people who are not worthy to persecute this titan of http libraries < 1564776387 196786 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1564776388 161008 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1564776422 515320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you will see to use the projects or don't, to see if the project is good for your use, rather than if the author is bad. < 1564776468 862693 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the thing is that even saying 'this project's code is too unsafe to use with any confidence' is then interpreted as an attack on the developer < 1564776524 1677 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't very good, then. It shouldn't be interpreted as an attack on the developer. < 1564776544 80387 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isn't very good < 1564776587 289851 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you see emerging is a defence in depth strategy designed to prevent anyone from ever criticising any project < 1564776621 770193 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the code is bad" "you should do something constructive and report issues rather than complaining" < 1564776654 757409 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you should indicate what is bad about the code, rather than just "the code is bad" < 1564776676 908075 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the code is bad for these reasons" "it's open source, you should fix it yourself and submit pull requests" < 1564776694 746205 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"here's a pull request" "i think the code is fine, closed" < 1564776720 546727 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the author of that code disagree with other people who want it difference anyways, that is why, then you should fork it. < 1564776732 383404 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the code is crappy and the developer won't fix it, don't use it" "wow why are you attacking this developer, don't you know they're working for free" < 1564776799 109252 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the alternative is to don't use it, if you don't want to use. < 1564776812 208336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do not want to fork it. < 1564776993 340767 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk what they'll say if you fork but i imagine they'll have a fallback < 1564777294 738221 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564778292 465038 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564778948 504583 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Boat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65021&oldid=40619 5* 03Hakr14 5* (+281) 10I made your tables look nice. < 1564779574 36773 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mrxqirytfkcmwszx JOIN :#esoteric > 1564779935 600932 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65022 5* 03A 5* (+666) 10Created page with "== People who don't know two golfing languages with different paradigms can not create a good golfing language == Uh-oh. You are trying to create another golfing language, but..." > 1564779989 804875 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65023&oldid=65022 5* 03A 5* (+55) 10 > 1564780057 896488 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65024&oldid=65015 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10Typos > 1564780159 147572 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65025&oldid=65023 5* 03A 5* (+111) 10 > 1564780347 436413 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65026&oldid=65016 5* 03A 5* (+118) 10/* Rotating Cell Tape */ > 1564780470 728384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65027&oldid=65026 5* 03A 5* (+215) 10/* Rotating Cell Tape */ > 1564780577 736472 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Boat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65028&oldid=65021 5* 03Hakr14 5* (+603) 10I pressed save instead of preview... whoops < 1564780603 220431 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564780789 890695 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hanzlu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65029&oldid=65027 5* 03A 5* (+74) 10/* Rotating Cell Tape */ < 1564781055 821483 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yeah < 1564781081 124752 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they make a big deal about "technical criticism not personal attacks" but then interpret everything as the latter < 1564781095 150795 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're allowed to criticise technical decisions (as long as you're sufficiently long-winded) but not the attitudes or behaviors that lead to them... as though decisions are made in a vacuum > 1564781246 47299 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65030&oldid=64997 5* 03A 5* (-1426) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ Merged, add new issue. < 1564782209 378097 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gonna design a 15.99967-bit CPU. Each register and each memory location will contain an integer in the range from 0 to 65520. < 1564782256 687668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: the obvious thing to do is to have all code contributed anonymously so that personal attacks aren't possible, all you can criticise is the code because you can't know who wrote it < 1564782259 262284 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or equivalently, -32760 to 32760. < 1564782271 503178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that has problems in a different way, in that it may make people unwilling to contribute < 1564782337 307581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that used to be more the norm in open source < 1564782348 431883 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now people use their real names cause they want to give talks and build their career on it < 1564782366 918757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typically use my real name for copyright reasons < 1564782484 837433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are you sure you will be unwilling to contribute? > 1564782492 72112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65031&oldid=65025 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+406) 10 < 1564782529 440221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose another possibility is to allow (but not require) anonymous contributions < 1564782541 878741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: me personally, maybe not < 1564782590 784765 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem is once you use your real name you're also vulnerable to people coming after you for things you said elsewhere on the internet < 1564782595 750818 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've played that game and it sucks < 1564782602 844513 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's one reason i'm leaving open source < 1564782789 788790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kept "ais523" separate from my real name for many years but the connection's probably too widely known at this point < 1564782799 836757 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not had such problem, but, I don't care so much about that anyways. < 1564782825 421911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still work some open source stuff, mainly my own programs, although I put it into the public domain anyways > 1564783124 689323 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65032&oldid=64987 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* Cat program */ < 1564783222 410902 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yeah it's just this culture that presupposes that everyone will try to make personal attacks and that's the only thing that can go wrong > 1564783242 188046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65033&oldid=65032 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Cat program */ < 1564783283 203318 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :which surprise surprise is basically the exact general attitude that defensive prima-donnas take whenever their work is questioned > 1564783285 282065 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65034&oldid=65024 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1122) 10 < 1564783355 720370 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For my own projects I do allow you to post tickets anonymously if you want to do. > 1564783557 443910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65035&oldid=65031 5* 03A 5* (+361) 10 > 1564783672 721434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65036&oldid=65035 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10 > 1564783842 796162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65037&oldid=65036 5* 03A 5* (+307) 10/* People who don't know two golfing languages with different paradigms can not create a good(competitive) golfing language */ > 1564784207 931578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65038&oldid=65034 5* 03A 5* (+185) 10In order to make me feel relaxed when I am writing the integers function... < 1564784237 250524 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if there is a implementation of SDL1 for SDL2? < 1564784272 782087 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is there a implementation of SDL2 on SDL1? > 1564784377 180751 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65039&oldid=65037 5* 03A 5* (+247) 10 < 1564784717 293755 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: then you could nest them > 1564784890 501267 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65040&oldid=65038 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* Computational class */ > 1564785033 761599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65041&oldid=65040 5* 03A 5* (+70) 10/* Computational class */ No it isn't (yet) > 1564785219 618051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65042&oldid=65041 5* 03A 5* (+352) 10/* Computational class */ < 1564785257 783211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I kept "ais523" separate from my real name for many years" => I don't remember that > 1564785269 471801 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65043&oldid=65039 5* 03A 5* (+37) 10 < 1564785391 212557 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564785690 131384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65044&oldid=65043 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+186) 10 > 1564785710 686110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65045&oldid=65044 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10 > 1564785738 915037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65046&oldid=65042 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10 > 1564788716 646780 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65047&oldid=65045 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10 < 1564791085 452134 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1564791175 454896 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65048&oldid=64967 5* 03A 5* (-501) 10wob_jonas has mentioned the long forgotten user afz! They said in this string+,07HOSTafz} :https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lve Right now the wilki is secretly hosted by afz; wob_jonas is probably the only one who remembers afz. > 1564792101 760412 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65049&oldid=65048 5* 03A 5* (-253) 10 < 1564795150 156102 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mrxqirytfkcmwszx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1564795822 541361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65050&oldid=65030 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+420) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ < 1564797684 358222 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh God, I just learned about Three-Star Programmer. < 1564798065 158083 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait. Let's say that your program contains a couple of constants, like A, B, C, and D. < 1564798099 709967 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then *A, *B, *C, and *D are pointers, of course. < 1564798100 289152 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do they point at? Pointers! < 1564798171 857646 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, I'm imagining memory as a bunch of cells on a whiteboard, and four of the cells are permanently labeled as *A, *B, *C, and *D. < 1564798190 89944 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you've also got four Post-It notes, which say **A, **B, **C, and **D. < 1564798355 63910 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does execution work? < 1564798373 993179 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you find **A, dereference it, and increment whatever it points to. Then you do the same for **B, then **C, and so forth. < 1564798415 365462 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the off chance that you ever increment *A, you take the **A Post-It note and move it to the right by one. Likewise for *B and so forth. < 1564798493 962462 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, eventually, all four of those Post-It notes are going to move all the way past *A, *B, *C and *D, never to return. < 1564798545 134111 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suppose it doesn't matter, since each time one of them moves on to fresh pasture, *its* target is now 0, which means it'll be able to point at *A or whatever at some point in the future. > 1564798608 124686 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65051&oldid=65050 5* 03A 5* (+207) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ > 1564798670 92872 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65052&oldid=65051 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ > 1564798764 667900 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65053&oldid=65052 5* 03A 5* (+86) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ < 1564798775 751839 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeh. Very interesting. < 1564798857 44783 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The feature that most clearly distinguishes the current generation of advanced microcomputer systems, however, is the ability to address lots of memory. It is this increased memory addressability which has ushered in the new era of microcomputer applications possibilities, such as large spreadsheets, integrated software, multi-user systems, and more. In this regard, the 65816 stands on or above par with any of the other highperformance < 1564798857 186209 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :microprocessors, such as the 68000, the 8086, or their successors." > 1564798958 594252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65054&oldid=65049 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10tswett[m]: I essentially do not like non Turing-complete languages, but Three Star Programmer is *indeed* very fun. > 1564799152 26039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65055&oldid=65054 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10Sgeo: the 4-bit processor 4004 is overall the most efficient, but I don't know whether it is good at addressing or not. < 1564799272 968743 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! < 1564799284 186727 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION blinks < 1564799326 975227 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see that I'm not the only one using a bouncer to connect to IRC. < 1564799340 279913 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But mine is a little more orthodox than [[User:A]]'s. < 1564799369 33924 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is that you? > 1564799417 225880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65056&oldid=65053 5* 03A 5* (+58) 10/* Keg+ Backwards compatibility issue and Keg lengthy code issue */ > 1564799687 457544 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65057&oldid=65055 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10tswett[m]: ehird is gone. > 1564800341 179180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65058 5* 03A 5* (+326) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} [https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lve Furthermore,] I recommend that the official #esoteric character set of 12 different characters for transmitting me..." > 1564800459 816145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65059&oldid=65058 5* 03A 5* (+269) 10 < 1564800513 165275 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the most interesting English palindrome that can be made with just the letters AHIMOTUVWXY? > 1564800840 562928 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65060&oldid=65059 5* 03A 5* (+701) 10 > 1564800936 340752 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65061&oldid=65060 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10kmc:I think it is the word "A". It is one of the few meaningful words that is 1 letter. < 1564800950 59785 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION blinks > 1564801124 484263 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65062&oldid=65046 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+133) 10 > 1564801125 101561 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65063&oldid=65061 5* 03A 5* (+112) 10 > 1564801426 928119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65064&oldid=65063 5* 03A 5* (+70) 10 > 1564801587 250863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65065&oldid=65064 5* 03A 5* (+40) 10 > 1564801780 88311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65066&oldid=65065 5* 03A 5* (+275) 10 > 1564801896 368291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65067&oldid=65066 5* 03A 5* (+172) 10 > 1564801978 455469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65068&oldid=65067 5* 03A 5* (-9) 10 > 1564802119 650025 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65069&oldid=65068 5* 03A 5* (+227) 10 < 1564802217 680105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise "please do not vandalise pages, even temporarily, so that their edit summaries show up on IRC" was required as a rule < 1564802245 231510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason you don't try to enumerate all the possible undesirable behaviours, it's because someone is bound to come up with something that isn't on the list yet < 1564802423 274997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh A is still responsible for what feels like 90% of all wiki edits :/ < 1564802446 914594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess I'll keep the ignore for a while longer.) < 1564802461 76132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hah! < 1564802555 596503 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAH < 1564802601 245801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I rather suspect that there are no really interesting anagrams with those letters in English, but maybe I need a better word list. (The longest ones were "maam" and "toot". You can also have tit for tat. And there are a few more exclamations like "wow", "aha" and also "huh".) > 1564802610 972467 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Afz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65070&oldid=65069 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10/* Commands */ < 1564802993 707235 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, you can use multiple words that aren't individually palindromes :) < 1564803157 918558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file /usr/share/dict/words < 1564803158 544340 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/usr/share/dict/words: symbolic link to american-english < 1564803189 273204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep -i ^[AHIMOTUVWXY]+$ /usr/share/dict/words | xargs < 1564803189 952608 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564803198 865656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep -i '^[AHIMOTUVWXY]+$' /usr/share/dict/words | xargs < 1564803199 613871 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564803226 317723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1564803229 292939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` egrep -i '^[AHIMOTUVWXY]+$' /usr/share/dict/words | xargs < 1564803230 10998 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Am Amati Amway Amy At Au Av Ava Axum H Haiti Ham Hathaway Hawaii Hay Hiawatha Ho Hohhot Hui Hutu I Io Iowa It Ito Iva Ivy M MIT Mai Mao Matt Maui Max May Maya Mayo Mia Miami Mimi Mitty Mo Moho Mott Mt Muawiya O Oahu Ohio Omaha Ottawa Otto T TWA Ta Tahiti Tami Tammi Tammy Tao Tatum Th Thai Thoth Ti Tia Tim Timmy Timothy Tito Tm Tom Tommy Toto Toyota Tuamotu Tut Tutu Ty U Utah V Va Vitim Vito W Watt Wii Witt Wm Wu Wyatt Wyo X Y Yahoo Yamaha a ah aha ahoy a < 1564803249 936988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` egrep -i '^[AHIMOTUVWXY]+$' /usr/share/dict/words | xargs | paste < 1564803251 252390 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.31274 < 1564803332 397390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $(< /usr/share/dict/words egrep -i '^[AHIMOTUVWXY]+$' | egrep '^(.)(((.)(((.)(.?\7)?)?\4)?)?\1)?$') < 1564803333 96067 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A H I M O T U V W X Y a aha h hah huh i m mom mum o oho t tat tit toot tot u v w wow x y < 1564803428 886202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atoi("iota") seems like a decent coding-based palindrome < 1564803433 443917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it's at least marginally thought-provoking < 1564803446 606955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> reverse ":-)" < 1564803448 486630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't recognise iota as a number, but it feels like it might be one in some context? < 1564803449 144811 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ")-:" < 1564803593 128960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why "mom" is not on the local word list. < 1564803645 257526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: three-star programmer is really confusing, it gets a bit easier with practice but it's still hard to juggle all the different levels of abstraction around in your head < 1564803646 196009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Here I get "a aa aha ama amma atta ava awa h hah huh i ihi imi immi m maam mim mum o oho otto t tat tit toot tot tut tyt u umu utu v w waw wow x y yoy" (without -i which just adds more individual letters to the list)) < 1564803670 201129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I did -i to avoid having to decapitalise the list of letters I'd copy-pasted ;-) < 1564803698 881130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otoh it adds many non-words :-P) < 1564803718 596167 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I like atoi("iota") < 1564803730 990940 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... my restricted list only really makes sense with capital letters < 1564803733 681683 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do you see why?) < 1564803736 893137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"atoi" isn't an English word, but it's probably a word in #esoteric context < 1564803744 688969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: oh, I did as soon as you said that < 1564803746 277013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not before < 1564803757 94474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: is there any significance to this particular list of letters? < 1564803758 457466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity, "atoi" only works in lowercase < 1564803760 448894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes < 1564803803 505666 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird that half of them are adjacent at the end of the alphabet < 1564803810 732938 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there is some complex historical reason for that < 1564803825 93054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are letters near the end of the alphabet likely to be newer, possibly? < 1564803826 83902 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean W used to be VV or something, so it makes sense those two are together < 1564803830 619315 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that I have no idea < 1564803836 560742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many are valid in Greek? < 1564803854 777111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :T and U are, VWXY aren't, Z is < 1564803870 378292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although initially U and V were the same letter, they got split later on; ditto I and J) < 1564803874 417672 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you like NSF music iirc? < 1564803899 625727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this probably explains why W is pronounced "double-U" but looks like double-V, U and V may have been equivalent at the time < 1564803902 282100 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bouncing back and forth between all these CPU architectures and with random music stuff associated with computers that used them < 1564803918 57030 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in greek you have a lot more suitable letters < 1564803926 753374 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ΑΔΗΘΙΛΜΞΟΠΤΥΦΧΨΩ < 1564803929 284288 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them actually < 1564803930 831557 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And SNES having a separate computer with separate memory just for music < 1564803942 209374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, Greek does have an X < 1564803999 117747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…maybe Greek letters tended to change form as they moved into Latin (but not always), whereas the new letters were new and thus didn't have a chance to change from their original form? < 1564804002 109381 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Russian Cyrillic you have АЖМНОПТФХШ < 1564804034 743009 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I'm sure there is a name for this type of palindrome) < 1564804038 484471 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I don't know what it is) < 1564804040 305948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: slightly more allowing for non-palindromes < 1564804048 236084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make a guess at what it is but don't know if I'm write < 1564804050 296250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*right > 1564804137 784118 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck-- interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65071&oldid=16542 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10 < 1564804167 144036 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, I like NSF music and I know how is work NSF music. > 1564804240 42600 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07( )fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65072&oldid=55529 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+59) 10 > 1564804292 200159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65073&oldid=63918 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1564804303 589634 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564804366 137255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to create an esolang that's a derivative of itself? < 1564804387 497652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're describing Feather again, aren't you... > 1564804413 966523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07++Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65074&oldid=56550 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+326) 10 < 1564804424 167994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I thought of that, but Feather isn't really a Feather derivative < 1564804429 164955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is implemented in itself, thoguh < 1564804437 605246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then so are lots of other languages, like C < 1564804440 620669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the right kind of circularity though < 1564804449 548665 :JonoCode9374!31b59b56@pa49-181-155-86.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric > 1564804454 268383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07.box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65075&oldid=43893 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+42) 10 > 1564804506 439642 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[070(nop^)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65076&oldid=39667 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+49) 10 < 1564804589 379515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess maybe https://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake would become a derivative of itself if there were a working interpreter, and at least one program for it > 1564804887 892863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07.mOdMoDwOrM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65077&oldid=38377 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-41) 10pre tags... but how do I categorize this article... < 1564805024 224871 :JonoCode9374!31b59b56@pa49-181-155-86.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1564805115 36695 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Mahagugu14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65078 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+568) 10Created page with "==Hello, I saw your articles [[.mOdMoDwOrM]] and [[.m@dpr'a'prozessor]]== If I were to annoy you, I'm sorry. When I was visiting articles on [[Special:UncategorizedPages]], I..." > 1564805192 168855 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0711CORTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65079&oldid=60502 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+49) 10 > 1564805303 620234 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Cortex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65080&oldid=59071 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+368) 10/* Categorization, please. */ new section > 1564805331 493411 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071argasm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65081&oldid=56185 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1564805351 183793 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(d/dx)esolangs.org > 1564805422 358562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Zero14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65082 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+338) 10Created page with "==Categorization, please== Hello, I happened to visited your article [[1argasm]] on [[Special:UncategorizedPages]], and I categorized into [[:Category:Languages]]. Next time,..." < 1564805578 214260 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1564805813 407485 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Iamcalledbob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65083&oldid=55684 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+314) 10/* Hey, what's the matter with 1st-Worst? */ new section > 1564805841 213851 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072.+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65084&oldid=55817 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1564805845 85349 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for the NSF equivalent of DeepSid and I found a page that's all about that music chip but also inexplicably links to NSFW stuff < 1564805889 580537 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell if it's a spam infection or if this person is legitimately reviewing porn < 1564805967 563341 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or spam infection that had a human realize a way to make it look just a bit more legitimate by referencing gaming < 1564805992 872580 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1564805994 462311 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1564806013 969915 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.2a03.org < 1564806072 559229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there some sort of rule against linking to porn on Freenode? :-D < 1564806080 396634 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that is... pretty odd < 1564806083 878546 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hope not, lol < 1564806088 918687 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've violated that rule many times > 1564806169 489900 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65085&oldid=64473 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+683) 10/* Could I be a new admin of this wiki? */ new section < 1564806213 939855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't there a rule that says this channel should be called ##esoteric :P > 1564806247 456382 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65086&oldid=30209 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 > 1564806277 321038 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65087&oldid=51809 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1564806283 248132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it depends on whether we have a better claim to anyone else to the word "esoteric" in programming contexts < 1564806285 434930 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how big the largest channel violating that rule is. < 1564806290 379644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue we do < 1564806304 628666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think it was cpressey who came up with the word?) > 1564806341 494924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07\ () /14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65088&oldid=58317 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+42) 10 < 1564806343 813956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#math got away with it for quite a year or two but was eventually converted.) < 1564806366 920203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Obviously I'm not going to ask :) > 1564806423 570071 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Randairox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65089 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+318) 10Created page with "==Categorizing [[\ () /]]== Hello, I happened to see your article on [[Special:UncategorizedPages]]. Is it [[:Category:Brainfuck derivatives|a derivation of brainfuck]]..." > 1564806455 261425 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07~-Hash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65090&oldid=38408 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+59) 10 > 1564806485 943978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65091&oldid=54446 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+59) 10 < 1564806537 158655 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't all the retro music things have something like DeepSID? < 1564806540 640476 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 DeepSID > 1564806589 606859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65092&oldid=65085 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1215) 10/* Could I be a new admin of this wiki? */ you don't need to be an admin to do that > 1564806593 340889 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07What the fuck is the Internet?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65093&oldid=53725 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+59) 10 > 1564806608 488941 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Varnand/Python Implementation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65094&oldid=64504 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10 < 1564806637 57081 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mentioned SNES having a separate computer with separate memory for music, and I also thought of a similar thing, although mine is a bit different, that buffers only one sample ahead on each of four channels (if you want more, you have to do mixing yourself), and then one instruction waits for and acknowledges an event and jumps to the event handler. > 1564806654 65363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07YesNoMaybeUnknown14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65095&oldid=60094 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1564806695 828439 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The possible events are a timeout event for each channel, and receiving data.) > 1564807025 916590 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokWae14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65096&oldid=57530 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+134) 10 > 1564807152 756203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07? $51=14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65097&oldid=64602 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10+WIP and moved CAT into bottom > 1564807204 644120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Seabass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65098&oldid=64724 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+49) 10 < 1564807342 868831 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you say this channel is the eofficial channel of the esolang wiki < 1564807394 178988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp rules < 1564807394 993264 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564807399 930683 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote rules < 1564807400 553769 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :252) Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent? \ 657) is there any evidence that Jesus knew the rules of tic-tac-toe? \ 1327) ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. It's the r < 1564807404 486412 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be official channel of esolang wiki. < 1564807435 234694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot`: what's with the `? < 1564807435 658977 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you don't with rez... kinda like a " smart" stack copying. it also had the amazing poke to tamper with them. < 1564807466 223784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think fungot` is its alternate nick < 1564807466 565677 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can make a new object structure, as far as syncretic abominations go, it is sent to b, f, g) h), but < 1564807485 744470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot`: "syncretic" has been said often enough to not be fnorded? < 1564807486 4261 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe :p though norway was swedish until 1906, so you can basically add to extend-environment: http://www.shiro.dreamhost.com/ scheme/ vault/ escm.html some < 1564807489 243182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn syncretic < 1564807490 629558 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** "syncretic" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1564807490 786106 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :syncretic < 1564807490 909606 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : adj 1: relating to a historical tendency for a language to < 1564807490 928220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : reduce its use of inflections; "modern English is a < 1564807490 928279 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : syncretic language" [syn: {syncretic}, {syncretical}, < 1564807492 742821 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3 @more lines] < 1564807506 243444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@more < 1564807506 596909 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : {syncretistic}, {syncretistical}] < 1564807506 615190 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2: of or characterized by syncretism [syn: {syncretic}, < 1564807506 712353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : {syncretical}, {syncretistic}, {syncretistical}] < 1564807514 694007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not surprised I didn't know that word < 1564807643 515712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn syncretism < 1564807645 65497 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** "syncretism" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1564807645 210176 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :syncretism < 1564807645 369241 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : n 1: the union (or attempted fusion) of different systems of < 1564807645 387559 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : thought or belief (especially in religion or philosophy); < 1564807645 387801 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : "a syncretism of material and immaterial theories" < 1564807647 68313 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2: the fusion of originally different inflected forms (resulting < 1564807649 172188 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : in a reduction in the use of inflections) < 1564807652 970806 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka the tendency of people to speak with their mouth closed? < 1564807689 404200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably more like the way that, e.g., English mostly doesn't have gendered inflections for adjectives even though many of its parent languages do < 1564807697 651841 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a 65816 be put into emulation mode with its ... bank and page register thingies non-0? < 1564807699 444297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's at least one case where it does, "blond" for males, "blonde" for females) < 1564807754 281323 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1564807759 98254 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never knew that! < 1564807765 666741 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never thought about those two words being different < 1564807790 92569 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564807850 313032 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Finally, emulation mode code does not have to be in bank 0, as long as there are no interrupts." < 1564808069 720615 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, easier times < 1564808115 839514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when you could assess the ramifications of disabling interrupts) < 1564808127 561177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I mean "simpler" not "easier" < 1564808235 794888 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :65816 has an "abort" thingy which looks intended to allow for an MMU < 1564808336 224709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the SNES CPU? < 1564808425 977800 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost < 1564808435 177840 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently SNES is somethign else that's based on it < 1564808463 887550 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricoh_5A22 < 1564808477 877399 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, apparently it is more different to the 65812 than the 6510 is to 6502 < 1564808569 176969 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" When running the 65802 in an older machine, such as Apple II c, II e, or II Plus, you will probably < 1564808569 325391 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :call your 65802 programs from a 6502 operating system or program." < 1564808583 725204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "different /from/" < 1564808642 729845 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. I was thinking about a 65816 OS hosting 6502 programs, but the other way around sounds like DOS extenders I think < 1564808701 153429 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although in the 65802 case it wouldn't help use more memory, since it's hardware compatible and so limited to 64k) > 1564808750 45563 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65099&oldid=64992 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+198) 10/* Instructions */ > 1564808953 972118 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65100&oldid=65099 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-198) 10Undoing < 1564808965 240446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1564810096 958173 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what a CPU intended to be efficient at emulating semi-arbitrary CPU architectures, and possibly multitasking among multiple occurring emulations would look like < 1564810148 278837 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly with a simple translation step beforehand. Although now I'm wondering if that's skippable < 1564810491 983129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that would save you the hassle of instruction decoding < 1564810531 306614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can focus on functionality, and keeping track of how the original program locations relate to the new ones. < 1564810699 821189 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O apparently the manual I was reading is "dangerously wrong" < 1564810713 461893 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1564810713 546244 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a "pure text" version of the Eyes/Lichty book, however it is rife with very dangerous typos (wrong opcodes, etc.) in many areas, and contains a large number of formatting/layout mistakes not present in the original book. Bill Mensch (6502/65C02/65816 architect/designer) confirmed these mistakes, stating WDC is in the process of fixing them. If at all possible, use the newer PDF mentioned above." < 1564810719 663783 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Programming_guide < 1564810919 266632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be unexplored territory (though Transmeta comes to mind, but they still only targeted a particular platform) so far our emulation problems have mostly be solved by Moore's law, boosted by just-in-time compilers :P < 1564810928 712489 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*been < 1564812202 131444 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :/topic rife with very dangerous typos > 1564812245 566191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07201514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65101&oldid=46056 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10YamTokTpaFa I am going to help you. > 1564812284 918362 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071st-Worst14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65102&oldid=55823 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 > 1564812303 355397 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07201514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65103&oldid=65101 5* 03A 5* (+28) 10Whoops > 1564812345 324093 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072/9 of an esolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65104&oldid=59665 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 < 1564812387 179624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu TOPIC #esoteric :IOCCC winners are denounced; source code release delayed | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D > 1564812415 459944 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07.m@dpr'a'prozessor14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65105&oldid=38378 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 > 1564812487 605483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07.mOdMoDwOrM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65106&oldid=65077 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10YamTokTpaFa You simply summarize the article. > 1564812555 340806 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ASCII14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65107&oldid=60469 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10 > 1564812579 229979 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ASCII art/mandelbrot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65108&oldid=43257 5* 03A 5* (+49) 10 > 1564812658 39291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072006 Esolang Contest14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65109&oldid=16622 5* 03A 5* (+18) 10From 2006 (I had to add a category though) > 1564812688 927419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072D BF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65110&oldid=55819 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10 > 1564812730 964273 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072xNeg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65111&oldid=52403 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10 > 1564812783 28100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65112&oldid=58588 5* 03A 5* (+91) 10 > 1564812829 500045 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[074-list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65113&oldid=55998 5* 03A 5* (+75) 10 > 1564812871 664421 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[075command14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65114&oldid=39732 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10 > 1564812926 871636 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[077Basic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65115&oldid=44264 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10 > 1564812956 81326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07=14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65116&oldid=55653 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10 > 1564812994 297533 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65117&oldid=52411 5* 03A 5* (+96) 10 > 1564813061 846381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AAEEEEEEEEEI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65118&oldid=53635 5* 03A 5* (+74) 10 > 1564813118 541476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ADDI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65119&oldid=45361 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 > 1564813172 140737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AFTL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65120&oldid=42714 5* 03A 5* (+94) 10 > 1564813260 298870 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AIV14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65121&oldid=45094 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 > 1564813292 898241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65122&oldid=50921 5* 03A 5* (+41) 10 > 1564813348 422191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ARGENTOS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65123&oldid=50219 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10I can't understand it. > 1564813392 708025 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65124&oldid=61495 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 > 1564813480 514854 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aaargh++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65125&oldid=33976 5* 03A 5* (+109) 10 > 1564813564 375757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Z80golf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65126&oldid=54232 5* 03A 5* (+71) 10 > 1564815624 140222 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg+ Language Design14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65127 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+7407) 10Big page of my plans < 1564816179 549259 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564816183 19435 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1564816184 498133 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :eggs < 1564816831 380639 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if PEOSIX or EsoAPI pages should link to PSOX >.>. Also I should repoint the links on PSOX page to GitHub > 1564817082 916350 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PSOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65128&oldid=25373 5* 03Sgeo 5* (-425) 10Who uses Assembla anymore? > 1564817682 13737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65129&oldid=65020 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-558) 10 < 1564817699 775480 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stares at LBYTES and wonder if that's why ehird complained that API authors should know what malloc is.  < 1564817783 219224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PSOX server doesn't have a way to know how much space to allocate < 1564817792 265904 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :noic > 1564817917 309884 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65130 5* 03A 5* (+368) 10Created page with "I see. So Keg+ is harder to golf than Keg, as more parts are mandatory compared to Keg. (For example, the for loop now requires iteration.) However, some other problems might..." > 1564818089 205428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65131&oldid=65130 5* 03A 5* (+71) 10 > 1564818161 832112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65132&oldid=65131 5* 03A 5* (+146) 10 > 1564818187 266975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65133&oldid=65132 5* 03A 5* (+40) 10 > 1564818517 448204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65134&oldid=65127 5* 03A 5* (+297) 10/* Completely New */ > 1564818628 738323 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65135&oldid=65133 5* 03A 5* (+59) 10 > 1564818648 176154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65136&oldid=65135 5* 03A 5* (-71) 10 < 1564818773 541869 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGEX1 = re.compile(r"((?:[^\x00]|\x00{2}(?:.|\Z))*)(\x00.*)?\Z", re.S) < 1564818798 575565 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....I'd like to hope that if I were to write such a regex today, I'd at least give it a better name > 1564819410 63319 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65137&oldid=65136 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+361) 10 < 1564819532 996504 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1564819677 268022 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564819700 172476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65138&oldid=65137 5* 03A 5* (+468) 10 < 1564819724 587495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564819755 193710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1564819773 468899 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :jo > 1564819788 212232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65139&oldid=65138 5* 03A 5* (+40) 10 > 1564820158 419439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Andrew's Programming Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65140&oldid=12762 5* 03A 5* (+247) 10 < 1564820446 697992 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm andrew too > 1564820657 627318 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hi-assembly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65141&oldid=55958 5* 03A 5* (+64) 10 > 1564820721 352907 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turing (Iamcalledbob)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65142&oldid=55853 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10 < 1564820954 592020 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :any esoteric idea? < 1564821031 436978 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1564821033 674104 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont have any just now < 1564821040 967602 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi rain < 1564821046 248182 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what esos have you made > 1564821459 754534 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65143&oldid=65139 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+1141) 10 < 1564823134 346612 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :llll > 1564823242 256161 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65144&oldid=64834 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+1358) 10Start of a bit of storytelling < 1564823432 448859 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: eso that is based in minecraft < 1564825432 762521 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hldmeffaldczuahh QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1564825476 300611 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1564825543 646737 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vtspndqqhuicqcet JOIN :#esoteric < 1564825654 480814 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep JOIN :#esoteric < 1564825758 507327 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ^[ > 1564829333 895937 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65145&oldid=65143 5* 03A 5* (+349) 10 > 1564829629 643807 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65146&oldid=65129 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1777) 10 > 1564829633 873061 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65147&oldid=65145 5* 03A 5* (+37) 10 > 1564829676 379927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65148&oldid=65146 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 < 1564829780 403432 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564831544 857411 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564832607 550777 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564832608 818574 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1564832690 391492 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PART :#esoteric < 1564832838 550721 :JonoCode9374!7811c93e@120.17.201.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564832870 912127 :JonoCode9374!7811c93e@120.17.201.62 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1564833237 145996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65149&oldid=64897 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+193) 10/* Comments */ new section < 1564833252 931194 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :redstone < 1564833422 22474 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564833425 791797 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1564834935 500827 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564835513 527307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I wonder what a CPU intended to be efficient at emulating semi-arbitrary CPU architectures ... would look like" => it would look like an FPGA < 1564835599 248740 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"denounced"? < 1564835758 509594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it, I'm downloading 12dicts to hackenv so you can use a proper dictionary instead of whatever random nonsense is in /usr < 1564835772 77609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://downloads.sourceforge.net/wordlist/12dicts-6.0.2.zip < 1564835778 924472 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 redirections exceeded. < 1564835788 964861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1564835810 3605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh jesus, it's hosted on sourceforge < 1564835936 818239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` mkdir -p share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized < 1564835937 496299 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564835962 386692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/ > share/dict/12dicts/readme.hackeso < 1564835964 266101 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564835982 700424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`edit share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3lem.txt < 1564835983 469683 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2%2B2%2B3lem.txt < 1564836037 568476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt < 1564836038 650728 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:40:38 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt [327329/327329] -> "share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt" [1] < 1564836138 248866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3cmn.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3cmn.txt < 1564836139 220951 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:42:18 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3cmn.txt [240505/240505] -> "share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3cmn.txt" [1] < 1564836216 653342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/ReadMe.html https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/ReadMe.html < 1564836217 568662 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:43:37 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/ReadMe.html [116952/116952] -> "share/dict/12dicts/ReadMe.html" [1] < 1564836376 569455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` mkdir -p share/dict/12dicts/American < 1564836377 257017 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564836380 577132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/American/6of12.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/6of12.txt < 1564836381 608577 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:46:21 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/6of12.txt [302206/302206] -> "share/dict/12dicts/American/6of12.txt" [1] < 1564836400 486548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hurl < 1564836401 204230 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ < 1564836437 691996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12.txt < 1564836438 806230 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:47:18 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12.txt [389024/389024] -> "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12.txt" [1] < 1564836474 149386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/alllists.html https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/alllists.html < 1564836475 76644 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:47:54 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/alllists.html [27214/27214] -> "share/dict/12dicts/alllists.html" [1] < 1564836647 699146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part0.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part0.txt < 1564836648 728530 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:50:48 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part0.txt [455960/455960] -> "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part0.txt" [1] < 1564836667 188236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part1.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part1.txt < 1564836668 188828 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:51:07 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part1.txt [343509/343509] -> "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part1.txt" [1] < 1564836696 356707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cat share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part?.txt > share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564836698 108077 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564836743 783465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -Ei '\<[qwertyuiop]{8,}\>' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564836744 481097 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :etiquette \ perpetuity \ pirouette \ portiere \ potpourri \ preppier \ preterit \ preterite \ prettier \ priority \ properer \ property \ proprietor \ propriety \ prototype \ puppeteer \ puppetry \ putterer \ repertoire \ repertory \ reporter \ requiter \ territory \ torturer \ totterer \ twittery \ typewrite \ typewriter \ typewrote < 1564836756 143881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` rm -v share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part?.txt < 1564836758 40386 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :removed 'share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part0.txt' \ removed 'share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf-part1.txt' < 1564836789 824035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/American/3esl.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/3esl.txt < 1564836790 739590 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-03 12:53:10 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/American/3esl.txt [196421/196421] -> "share/dict/12dicts/American/3esl.txt" [1] < 1564836978 768089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, now what was your original question about palindromes? < 1564837069 71878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :english palindromes made of AHIMOTUVWXY < 1564837156 207249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([ahimotuvwxy]+)[&#=<^~+]?$/i && lc $1 eq reverse lc $1 and print $1, " "' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564837156 868438 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha hah huh mom mum oho tat tit toot tot tut wow < 1564837174 317614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sorry, it was a rethorical question, I was just slow to type up the code < 1564837182 652489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there aren't many < 1564837205 21208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([ahimotuvwxyEN]+)[&#=<^~+]?$/i && lc $1 eq reverse lc $1 and print $1, " "' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt # what if we allow a bit more letters? < 1564837210 346766 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha eve ewe eye hah huh minim mom mum noon nun oho tat tenet tit toot tot tut wow < 1564837223 908171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([ahimotuvwxyENSLR]+)[&#=<^~+]?$/i && lc $1 eq reverse lc $1 and print $1, " "' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt # even more? < 1564837225 220767 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha ere eve ewe eye hah huh level minim mom mum noon nun oho rotor sees sexes shahs sis solos stats stets tat tenet tit toot tot tut wow < 1564837279 392465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1564837289 873045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^\s*([ahimotuvwxy]+)[&#=<^~+]?$/i && lc $1 eq reverse lc $1 and print $1, " "' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564837290 562188 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha hah huh mom mum oho tat tit toot tot tut wow < 1564837293 145970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564837326 383229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, this isn't one of the lemmatized lists, it doesn't have leading whitespace < 1564837464 975240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^\s*([a-z]+)[&#=<^~+]*$/i && lc $1 eq reverse lc $1 and print $1, " "' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt # there aren't many palyndromic single words even if you allow all letters < 1564837465 737643 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha bib bob boob bub civic dad deed deified did dud eke ere eve ewe eye gag gig hah huh kayak kook level madam minim mom mum noon nun oho pap peep pep pip poop pop pullup pup radar redder refer rotor sagas sees sexes shahs sis solos stats stets tat tenet tit toot tot tut wow < 1564837482 679815 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I looked for words whose reverse is also a word a month ago or so < 1564837672 685467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"diaper" vs "repaied" was one of the longest pairs < 1564837965 854659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([a-z]+)[&#=<^~+]?/ or die "syntax $_; $w=$1; $w{$w}++; 6 <= length$w && $w ne reverse($w) && $w{reverse$w} and print reverse($w)."|$w ";' American/2of12inf.txt < 1564837966 497364 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :String found where operator expected at -e line 1, at end of line \ (Missing semicolon on previous line?) \ Can't find string terminator '"' anywhere before EOF at -e line 1. < 1564837971 649165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([a-z]+)[&#=<^~+]?/ or die "syntax $_"; $w=$1; $w{$w}++; 6 <= length$w && $w ne reverse($w) && $w{reverse$w} and print reverse($w)."|$w ";' American/2of12inf.txt < 1564837972 336506 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't open American/2of12inf.txt: No such file or directory. < 1564837979 96624 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([a-z]+)[&#=<^~+]?/ or die "syntax $_"; $w=$1; $w{$w}++; 6 <= length$w && $w ne reverse($w) && $w{reverse$w} and print reverse($w)."|$w ";' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564837980 156590 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :animal|lamina deffer|reffed denier|reined eviler|relive diaper|repaid looter|retool deliver|reviled drawer|reward denies|seined retros|sorter recaps|spacer sloops|spools snoops|spoons sleets|steels desserts|stressed sports|strops redraw|warder < 1564837986 15438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the long ones < 1564838004 756932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([a-z]+)[&#=<^~+]?/ or die; $w=$1; $w{$w}++; 5 == length$w && $w ne reverse($w) && $w{reverse$w} and print reverse($w)."|$w ";' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564838005 792837 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :decaf|faced decal|laced devil|lived denim|mined pacer|recap lager|regal leper|repel lever|revel fires|serif keels|sleek peels|sleep pools|sloop snaps|spans deeps|speed snips|spins loops|spool knits|stink loots|stool spots|stops parts|strap ports|strop draws|sward sprat|tarps relit|tiler remit|timer smart|trams debut|tubed rebut|tuber straw|warts < 1564838043 562167 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought this was in the logs somewhere, but it's not < 1564838417 967629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck < 1564838591 325512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'while(<>) { ($w) = /^([a-z]+)[!%&#=<^~+\r]*$/ or die "syntax $_"; if (reverse($w) eq $w) { print "$w " } }' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564838592 81386 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha bib bob boob bub civic dad deed deified did dud eke ere eve ewe eye gag gig hah huh kayak kook level madam minim mom mum noon nun oho pap peep pep pip poop pop pullup pup radar redder refer rotor sagas sees sexes shahs sis solos sos stats stets tat tenet tit toot tot tut wow < 1564838601 808256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'while(<>) { ($w) = /^([ahimotuvwxy]+)[!%&#=<^~+\r]*$/ or die "syntax $_"; if (reverse($w) eq $w) { print "$w " } }' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564838602 452336 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax aardvark < 1564838605 681908 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1564838641 101088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'while(<>) { ($w) = /^([a-z]+)[!%&#=<^~+\r]*$/ or die "syntax $_"; if ($w !~ y/ahimotuvwxy//c && reverse($w) eq $w) { print "$w " } }' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564838645 729826 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha hah huh mom mum oho tat tit toot tot tut wow < 1564838693 110464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'while(<>) { ($w) = /^([a-z]+)[!%&#=<^~+\r]*$/ or die "syntax $_"; $w{$w}++; if ($w !~ y/ahimotuvwxy//c && reverse($w) ne $w && $w{reverse($w)}) { print "$w " } }' share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt < 1564838694 112492 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ma oh tam ti tom um ya yam yaw < 1564838957 125387 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564839406 924967 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1564840553 594460 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65150&oldid=65149 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+74) 10 > 1564840942 939479 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65151&oldid=65148 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-4) 10 > 1564841189 378309 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65152&oldid=65151 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-143) 10 > 1564841317 17523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65153&oldid=65152 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-31) 10 > 1564842387 612991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65154&oldid=63951 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-633) 10Blanked the page > 1564842446 178975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Morsefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65155&oldid=54772 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+35) 10 > 1564842490 957100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65156&oldid=65153 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-399) 10 > 1564842509 277081 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65157&oldid=65156 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+2) 10 > 1564842613 177579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sd14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65158&oldid=50839 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+77) 10 > 1564842643 994651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Haddock14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65159&oldid=54433 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+17) 10 > 1564842707 489525 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!Tautologos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65160&oldid=46734 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+28) 10 > 1564842744 406712 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jumper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65161&oldid=43918 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+54) 10 > 1564842904 815973 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65162&oldid=65157 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-1) 10 > 1564842943 896924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65163&oldid=64853 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+282) 10 > 1564842981 917781 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65164&oldid=65162 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1) 10 > 1564843024 796525 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:Infobox proglang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65165&oldid=40371 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+13) 10 > 1564843285 784335 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template talk:Infobox proglang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65166 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+469) 10Created page with "== Template improving discussion == First of all I don't think {{{name}}} essential; why not {{{name|{{PAGENAME}}}}}? If you don't specify to..." > 1564843304 295631 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Structure-free Query Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65167&oldid=45208 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+42) 10 > 1564843368 342540 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65168&oldid=49136 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+58) 10 < 1564843389 55766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much activity > 1564844460 857184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65169&oldid=65164 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+44) 10 > 1564844652 444886 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Collatz sequence14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65170 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+127) 10Created page with "==Turing-completeness== Does a Collatz sequence program prove Turing-completeness? --[[User:Hanzlu]] 18:04, 3 August 2019 (UTC)" < 1564845013 368892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1564845824 791834 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-pfpxzzjpqwyehavd QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564845911 780554 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-wxwsqbbqbxndbnvp JOIN :#esoteric < 1564846752 50007 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564847300 550424 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564847334 184511 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1564847399 531770 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564850150 808541 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1564852519 115089 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Collatz sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65171&oldid=65170 5* 03Ais523 5* (+588) 10generalized Collatz [[Tip]]; the original Collatz sequence itself is probably not Turing-complete, though < 1564853375 867543 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do some SMTP servers tamper with the message ID? < 1564853483 850557 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I received a email message with a "X-Android-Message-ID" header, containing the same contents as the "Message-ID" header. I don't know why, or if perhaps the email client just added it to duplicate the message ID. Do you know? > 1564854410 248422 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65172&oldid=65169 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-44) 10 < 1564856302 46520 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564857505 235848 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564857737 622770 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rbjhhrkemwqcufkf JOIN :#esoteric < 1564858008 293352 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564858195 279417 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1564858884 445395 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65173&oldid=65172 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+766) 10 > 1564858906 404313 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65174&oldid=65173 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+2) 10 < 1564859270 783375 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1564859503 280939 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564859673 249741 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564862648 717530 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564862836 278109 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1564862837 937777 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1564864824 33750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; $w{$w}++; $r=$w=~y/a-z/n-za-m/r; $w{$r} and print "$w|$r "; } # there aren't many common english words that are still words when rot13ed < 1564864824 969160 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nag|ant nowhere|abjurer nu|ah nun|aha oho|bub one|bar ones|barf onyx|balk or|be ova|bin pent|crag rail|envy reef|errs roof|ebbs she|fur sync|flap tang|gnat try|gel vex|irk < 1564864923 677919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vex" with "irk" is an interesting pair < 1564865398 573172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dictionary also reveals that "motherfucking" is one of the longest words in which no letter appears twice < 1564866334 470455 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. That website used to not be a shitty blog with porn: https://web.archive.org/web/20040401085825/http://www.2a03.org/index.php < 1564866926 328578 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That's a lot more words that rot13 to other words than I would have expected. < 1564867071 288785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0142.html is slightly relevant < 1564867536 22094 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This person sounds like an ahole < 1564867537 128331 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You probably think 64 kilobytes doesn't sound much when a small game now takes 8 gigabytes, but that's 'cos modern games are sloppy, inefficient, fat and lazy - like the basement dwelling losers who wrote them!!! < 1564867537 276480 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1564867886 39785 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rbjhhrkemwqcufkf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564867895 254545 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that and the eye-bleeding style choices, these tutorials look interesting < 1564867925 178145 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.chibiakumas.com/z80/ < 1564869498 913312 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pormjzewkotiusdb JOIN :#esoteric < 1564870943 525503 :MDude!~MDude@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564874196 403172 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1564874563 72351 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to my dictionary 'tendentiousness' is the longest word that can be typed using only the home row on Dvorak < 1564874594 208251 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for QWERTY it's 'alfalfa' < 1564874645 884848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874647 181511 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, having 5 vowels instead of 1 helps < 1564874647 963694 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad add added addend addenda addends addition additions adds adenine adenines adenoid adenoids adhesion adhesions adieu adieus adios ado ados ads aeon aeons aesthete aesthetes ah aha ahead aid aide aided aides aids an anaesthesia anaesthesias anaesthetist anaesthetists and andante andantes anent anesthesia anesthesias anesthetist anesthetists ani anion anions anise aniseed aniseeds anises anisette anisettes annotate annotated annotates annotation annotation < 1564874656 5903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/asdfghjkl//c) { print "$w "; } } < 1564874656 732215 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad add adds ads ah aha alas alfalfa alfalfas alga algal all alls as ash ask asks ass dad dads dash fa fad fads fag fags fall falls fas flag flags flak flash flask flasks gad gads gaff gaffs gag gaga gags gal gala galas gall galls gals gas gash glad glads glass ha had hadj hag hags hah hajj halal halals half hall halls has hash jag jags la lad lads lag lags las lash lass sad sag saga sagas sags salad salads salsa salsas sash sass sh shad shads shag shags sh < 1564874667 458579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 12 <= $w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874668 142491 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564874671 885357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 10 <= $w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874672 614289 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564874676 427195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 8 <= $w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874677 142737 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564874679 713809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1564874682 859396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 6 <= $w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874683 638846 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564874691 785086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :something's wrong here < 1564874700 80500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 12 <= length$w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874700 883873 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anaesthesias anaesthetist anaesthetists anesthetists assassinated assassinates assassination assassinations assiduousness assiduousnesses astutenesses attenuations attestations daintinesses destinations destitutions detestations dishonesties heinousnesses hideousnesses hootenannies hotheadedness hotheadednesses inattentions indentations innatenesses insidiousness insidiousnesses insinuations instantaneous instantiated instantiates institutions intentnesses < 1564874706 755478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/aueoidhtns//c && 14 <= length$w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874707 547528 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :assassinations assiduousnesses hotheadednesses insidiousnesses nauseousnesses sensuousnesses studiousnesses tendentiousness tendentiousnesses unsteadinesses < 1564874719 699452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/asdfghjkl//c && 8 <= length$w) { print "$w "; } } # let's see < 1564874720 386577 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :alfalfas < 1564874771 798224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that sounds right. I don't know what tendentiousness means, but 12dicts agrees that it's a word < 1564874789 998446 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know that alfalfa is some kind of crop plant < 1564874811 934972 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tendentious means 'Having a tendency; written or spoken with a partisan, biased or prejudiced purpose, especially a controversial one.' < 1564875062 137273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/qwertasdfgzxcvb//c) { push @w,$w; push @k,length$w; } } print "$_ " for @w[sort {$k[$b]<=>$k[$a]} keys@w] # you probably know about the qwerty left hand words < 1564875062 841457 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :abracadabras aftereffects desegregated desegregates reverberated reverberates stewardesses watercresses abracadabra aftereffect aftertastes asseverated asseverates crabgrasses desegregate effervesced effervesces exacerbated exacerbates exaggerated exaggerates readdressed readdresses reverberate sassafrases stagecrafts statecrafts sweetbreads vertebrates abstracted addressees aftercares aftertaste afterwards aggravated aggravates aggregated aggregates assev < 1564875076 871858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; if ($w !~ y/qwertasdfgzxcvb//) { push @w,$w; push @k,length$w; } } print "$_ " for @w[sort {$k[$b]<=>$k[$a]} keys@w] # and the right hand ones < 1564875077 571952 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :polyphony lollipop lollypop monopoly nonunion polonium holmium homonym jollily jumpily killjoy kinkily million minimum mullion opinion pillion plumply pumpkin homily hominy hookup johnny kimono limply linkup minion mukluk muumuu phylum pimply pinion pinyin pinyon pippin pompom pompon poplin pullup punkin unholy unhook uphill hilly hippo hippy hokum holly honky hooky hullo humph hunky ilium imply jimmy jinni jolly jumpy junky kinky knoll kooky lippy loony l < 1564875165 250279 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :were we doing typing speed tests here? < 1564875299 160766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<", "share/dict/12dicts/American/2of12inf.txt"; while(<$I>){ ($w)=/^([a-z]+)[!%\r]*$/ or die; $r="qwertasdfgzxcvb"; if ($w =~ /^[$r]?([^$r][$r])+[^$r]?$/) { push @w,$w; push @k,length$w; } } print "$_ " for @w[sort {$k[$b]<=>$k[$a]} keys@w] # and then there's the alternate hand ones < 1564875299 959874 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dismantlement authenticity enchantment entitlement proficiency shantytowns skepticisms antisocial handiworks pantheisms producible proficient protozoans shantytown skepticism amendment aneurisms aneurysms auditoria authentic bodyworks busyworks cockfight cyclamens dirigible dismantle disorient divisible dixieland downright downtowns downturns dyspepsia dyspeptic endowment firmament fishbowls flamencos futurisms handiwork pantheism protozoan rhapsodic right < 1564875312 515240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no, not really < 1564875315 149666 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.livechatinc.com/typing-speed-test/#/ Awesome! You type with the speed of 106 WPM (469 CPM). Your accuracy was 97%. Congratulations! < 1564875324 226490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm da bomb < 1564875337 136857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen some nice puzzles for which I've used a dictionary recently < 1564875344 616945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, within a year really < 1564875363 249449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me find them < 1564875474 369129 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's on dvorak < 1564875475 787248 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat! You type with the speed of 50 WPM (220 CPM). Your accuracy was 98%. Good job! < 1564875479 54398 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on qwerty < 1564875485 737842 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm more than twice as fast on dvorak < 1564875496 776854 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not surprising since i've been using it ~fulltime for more than 15 years < 1564875504 929005 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus it's just better < 1564875511 811428 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's surprising is that i can still touch type qwerty at all < 1564875541 750101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/06/ot101-threadversarial-collaboropen/#comment-626175 puzzle where you have to add one letter to the clue word or phrase and permute its letters to get the solution word or phrase (and there's a sequel for it somewhere) < 1564875683 455406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/q/79223/ english words with rare infixes < 1564875774 744144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. what english word has "rsd" in it as an infix? < 1564875959 174068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep rsd share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt # let's see < 1564875959 846345 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(Thursday) > 1564881601 882219 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Keg+ Language Design14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65175&oldid=65147 5* 03A 5* (+227) 10 < 1564882500 548800 :MDude!~MDude@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1564885286 804747 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pormjzewkotiusdb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564887164 214875 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1564887603 25273 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DoggyDogWhirl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65176&oldid=64758 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+121) 10 > 1564887607 807319 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DoggyDogWhirl/One-Dimensional Storage Visualizer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65177 5* 03DoggyDogWhirl 5* (+4216) 10 < 1564888580 348183 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome! You type with the speed of 70 WPM (315 CPM). Your accuracy was 94%. Congratulations! < 1564888611 3957 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort of stayed a while trying to correct one typo < 1564888651 855391 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1564888659 51604 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi > 1564889124 282521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65178&oldid=65062 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+381) 10 < 1564890494 168721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well played: http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2019/08/01/1103-raccoons-are-the-champions-my-friends/ (the link in the box is relevant: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.11679 ) > 1564893759 788894 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65179&oldid=65178 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1188) 10Undid Turing imcompletness proof by User: A. The page is done now. > 1564893857 563478 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65180&oldid=65057 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+156) 10 > 1564894259 141000 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65181&oldid=64955 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+10) 10/* Full List of languages I Made */ > 1564894305 492873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65182&oldid=64956 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+10) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ > 1564894468 871063 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65183&oldid=65047 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+151) 10 > 1564895062 357105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65184&oldid=65180 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+165) 10 > 1564895386 77736 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65185&oldid=65179 5* 03A 5* (+219) 10This is what I did to Keg :) > 1564895692 625086 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65186&oldid=65184 5* 03A 5* (+402) 10/* Concern */ > 1564895767 758815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65187&oldid=65186 5* 03A 5* (+27) 10/* Concern */ > 1564895832 107599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65188&oldid=65185 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Integers instruction (integers from top of stack down to 0), 25 bytes */ I have underestimated how hard to golf 256 is. > 1564895884 820660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65189&oldid=65188 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10/* Integers instruction (integers from top of stack down to 0), 25 28 bytes */ > 1564896028 645139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0725614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65190&oldid=65189 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10/* Integers instruction (integers from top of stack down to 0), 25 28 bytes */ Making too much edits > 1564896166 117439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65191&oldid=65183 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10 > 1564896331 904976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65192&oldid=65191 5* 03A 5* (+186) 10/* People who don't know two golfing languages with different paradigms can not create a good(competitive) golfing language */ > 1564896519 840439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65193&oldid=65187 5* 03A 5* (+95) 10 > 1564896574 208001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65194&oldid=65193 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10 > 1564896602 64185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65195&oldid=65194 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10 < 1564900945 79257 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1564901307 16059 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mooo < 1564902808 602449 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txebvjbuifjjjkpf JOIN :#esoteric < 1564906060 797875 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1564906144 431648 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1564907980 549449 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1564908868 838144 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1564909485 208083 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564909980 14969 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric > 1564910304 607325 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont 5* 10New user account > 1564910616 76408 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65196&oldid=64948 5* 03SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont 5* (+244) 10/* Introductions */ < 1564911772 470308 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txebvjbuifjjjkpf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1564912656 145382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkdir share/dict/12dicts/International < 1564912657 144545 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1564912660 286732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/International/5d+2a.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/International/5d+2a.txt < 1564912661 640450 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-04 09:57:41 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/International/5d+2a.txt [638311/638311] -> "share/dict/12dicts/International/5d+2a.txt" [1] > 1564913687 754344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65197&oldid=65100 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+62) 10 > 1564913689 900842 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MetaGlow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65198 5* 03SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont 5* (+1172) 10MetaGlow > 1564913876 604246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65199&oldid=65182 5* 03SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont 5* (+15) 10/* M */ < 1564914321 501050 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1564914346 189505 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1564915211 745358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/dict/12dicts/International/3of6game.txt https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/International/3of6game.txt < 1564915215 325650 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-04 10:40:14 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/share/dict/12dicts/International/3of6game.txt [607396/607396] -> "share/dict/12dicts/International/3of6game.txt" [1] < 1564916130 493408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone here ever worked out how Jot is supposed to work? < 1564917173 401330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh never mind, I think I got it. > 1564917190 237629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5* 10moved [[02MSM10]] to [[Mutating Stack Machine]]: Because I am creating a language of the same name. > 1564917190 248199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5* 10moved [[02Talk:MSM10]] to [[Talk:Mutating Stack Machine]]: Because I am creating a language of the same name. > 1564917290 833001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MSM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65204&oldid=65201 5* 03A 5* (+147) 10Disambig > 1564917422 846934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65205 5* 03A 5* (+3322) 10Stub page of an inconcise language < 1564917478 409390 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1564917726 399853 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1564917867 965369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65206&oldid=65205 5* 03A 5* (-797) 10/* All instructions (in mathematics; this is just copied from the Unicode website) */ Remove some useless symbols that have alternative symbols available > 1564918041 167026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65207&oldid=65199 5* 03A 5* (+28) 10/* M */ > 1564918286 301831 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65208&oldid=65206 5* 03A 5* (-27) 10 > 1564918310 814332 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65209&oldid=65208 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10/* Examples */ > 1564918831 17160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65210&oldid=65209 5* 03A 5* (+23) 10 > 1564919327 625204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65211&oldid=65210 5* 03A 5* (+147) 10 > 1564919421 353630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65212&oldid=65211 5* 03A 5* (+32) 10/* All instructions (in mathematics; this is just copied from the Unicode website) */ > 1564919464 424234 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65213&oldid=65212 5* 03A 5* (+142) 10/* Examples */ > 1564919520 744688 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65214&oldid=65213 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10/* Examples */ < 1564920371 549055 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric > 1564921117 546847 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65215&oldid=65214 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10 > 1564921135 341325 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65216&oldid=65215 5* 03A 5* (-13) 10 < 1564921602 963579 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1564923714 470899 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65217&oldid=65216 5* 03A 5* (-110) 10 < 1564923748 525642 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1564923793 961985 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4976:6dd0:66d3:b85 JOIN :#esoteric > 1564924671 432601 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65218&oldid=65174 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 > 1564925753 200419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Iamcalledbob14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65219&oldid=65083 5* 03A 5* (+301) 10/* Hey, what's the matter with 1st-Worst? */ > 1564925963 381495 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65220&oldid=65217 5* 03A 5* (-260) 10No, because they are invalid mathematical operators. After all, you will never know the length of a multi-set anyway. > 1564926002 652381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65221&oldid=65197 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+435) 10 > 1564926096 456877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65222&oldid=65221 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+40) 10 > 1564926315 100456 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Javagrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65223&oldid=53556 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+85) 10 > 1564926324 596710 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65224&oldid=65220 5* 03A 5* (+26) 10/* All instructions (in mathematics; this is just copied from the Unicode website) */ > 1564926339 814968 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Javagrid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65225&oldid=65223 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */ > 1564926506 660193 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65226 5* 03A 5* (+1073) 10Created page with "
 All sets in Set Manipulator are multi-sets, although they can occasionally be treated as normal sets.  AB A with all items not in B removed; Intersection AB A with..."
> 1564926829 299725 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65227&oldid=65226 5* 03A 5* (+313) 10
> 1564927283 867040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65228&oldid=65227 5* 03A 5* (+525) 10
> 1564927417 511651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65229&oldid=65228 5* 03A 5* (+130) 10/* Natural numbers set not using the built-in N */
> 1564927478 198973 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65230&oldid=65224 5* 03A 5* (+87) 10
> 1564927652 266455 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65231&oldid=65229 5* 03A 5* (+157) 10This can do everything Multi-Set Manipulator can do.
> 1564927659 950872 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65232&oldid=65230 5* 03A 5* (-170) 10/* Examples */
> 1564928141 832960 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65233&oldid=65231 5* 03A 5* (+200) 10Uh-oh, mathematicians *indeed* can access the length of a set.
> 1564928593 693451 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65234&oldid=65233 5* 03A 5* (+246) 10
> 1564928663 988968 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65235&oldid=65234 5* 03A 5* (+199) 10
< 1564929018 629510 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1564929101 108991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65236&oldid=65235 5* 03A 5* (+477) 10
> 1564929307 732621 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65237&oldid=65232 5* 03A 5* (+454) 10
< 1564929467 394143 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1564929854 706336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65238&oldid=65236 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10
> 1564930960 86946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65239&oldid=65195 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10
> 1564931019 708546 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65240&oldid=65239 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10Blaise Pascal created roughly 20 mechanical calculators.
> 1564931189 102403 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65241&oldid=65238 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10
> 1564931560 2148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65242&oldid=65241 5* 03A 5* (+270) 10
> 1564931577 287279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65243&oldid=65242 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10/* All prime numbers less than I not using the built-in R set */
> 1564931641 845625 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65244&oldid=65243 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* All prime numbers less than I not using the built-in R set */
< 1564932057 349827 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564932163 200354 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1564932168 232858 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude
< 1564933197 324519 :diverger!~div@192.145.126.136 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564933602 54104 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1564933765 460773 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564935419 795713 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1564935517 635126 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564939206 972482 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnvyhauucottftpx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564940866 158999 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
> 1564947088 580647 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65245&oldid=65218 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+97) 10
< 1564947428 628327 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564948599 366115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :slashlearn Schanuel's conjecture//Schanuel's conjecture states that e + pi is irrational.
> 1564949055 991971 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65246&oldid=65245 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+61) 10
< 1564949168 422308 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564949309 463734 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1564949309 995322 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1564953493 207363 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1564954345 47488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cello
< 1564954346 29546 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​4The 7high 8level 9structure 2of 13Cello 6projects 4is 7inspired 8by 9/Haskell/, 2while 13the 6syntax 4and 7semantics 8are 9inspired 2by 13/Python/ 6and 4/Obj-C/.
< 1564954419 165735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 1208
< 1564954419 848839 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1208)  Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
< 1564955137 484462 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1564955874 75173 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564955979 173427 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1564957718 228133 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564960490 151893 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone told me a idea of somehow having relics (similar to the Catholic saints relics) in Magic: the Gathering, possibly a subtype for artifacts, but I don't know how it is work.
< 1564960530 215135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, the flavor had relics for a while
< 1564960580 538715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Zendikar, see Solemn Offering
< 1564960740 691578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are several cards with "Relic" in the name
> 1564963235 842278 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Davipb 5*  10New user account
> 1564963472 483928 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65247&oldid=65196 5* 03Davipb 5* (+158) 10My introduction
< 1564963645 52530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2834969/20190804/
< 1564963645 720282 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2834969/20190804/: b_jonas
< 1564964571 515623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-82.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1564966795 932559 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Hollerith chording?
< 1564968425 836951 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
> 1564974892 565047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65248&oldid=65150 5* 03A 5* (+210) 10
> 1564975060 464416 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65249&oldid=65248 5* 03A 5* (+371) 10
< 1564975320 182608 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1564978431 622964 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65250&oldid=65249 5* 03A 5* (-370) 10/* C Interpreter */
< 1564979989 858072 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
> 1564981550 961363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65251&oldid=65244 5* 03A 5* (+33) 10
< 1564981891 281365 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1564982118 294853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65252&oldid=65251 5* 03A 5* (-102) 10
> 1564982416 929279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65253&oldid=65252 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10/* All prime numbers less than I */
< 1564982510 534725 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564982883 186110 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1564982954 466369 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1564983234 694664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65254&oldid=65253 5* 03A 5* (+85) 10
> 1564983309 756998 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65255&oldid=65254 5* 03A 5* (-50) 10
< 1564985988 84523 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnvyhauucottftpx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1564986607 83663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65256&oldid=57231 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10/* APL */
> 1564986628 881909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65257&oldid=65256 5* 03A 5* (+51) 10/* APL */
> 1564986757 725105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65258&oldid=65257 5* 03A 5* (+82) 10/* APL */
< 1564988308 748998 :x003n!~x003n@unaffiliated/x003n JOIN :#esoteric
> 1564988329 372044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65259&oldid=65255 5* 03A 5* (+310) 10
< 1564988456 546312 :x003n!~x003n@unaffiliated/x003n PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1564990192 327987 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564990377 203736 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1564990808 548837 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564990838 528510 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1564990926 632523 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nylon
< 1564991038 402588 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nylon
< 1564991223 438738 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly
< 1564991225 818304 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nylon
< 1564991269 32114 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot`: help!
< 1564991269 304338 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: isn't that kind of idea of letting %app %datum and friends in r5. r4 didn't even have modem iirc
< 1564991289 673418 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally something that makes sense.
< 1564991298 629322 :Fatalize!a16a0005@161.106.0.5 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564991358 936358 :Fatalize!a16a0005@161.106.0.5 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1564991680 187183 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564992120 247795 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nylon
< 1564992453 741437 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1564992684 207636 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564994971 564994 :ieuaeiau!a16a0005@161.106.0.5 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564994999 185976 :ieuaeiau!a16a0005@161.106.0.5 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1564996661 765654 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :trucks
< 1564996662 845569 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :trucks
< 1564996664 30373 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :trucks
< 1564997157 492706 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1564997249 548940 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1564997258 47868 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :real estate
< 1564997840 474714 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1564998590 360492 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65260&oldid=65259 5* 03A 5* (-147) 10
> 1564998970 260348 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65261&oldid=65260 5* 03A 5* (-596) 10Simpler set syntax
> 1564999231 317478 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65262&oldid=65261 5* 03A 5* (+173) 10
> 1564999324 946405 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65263&oldid=65262 5* 03A 5* (+15) 10/* Set-comparison instructions */
> 1565000265 927024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65264 5* 03A 5* (+2717) 10Ctrl+C Ctrl+V
> 1565000283 966926 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65265&oldid=65264 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10
> 1565000491 157717 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65266&oldid=65265 5* 03A 5* (-532) 10
> 1565000537 70974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65267&oldid=56744 5* 03A 5* (+47) 10
> 1565000548 474751 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65268&oldid=65267 5* 03A 5* (-66) 10
> 1565000893 852122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65269&oldid=65266 5* 03A 5* (-71) 10/* Set-manipulational instructions */ Hmm...
> 1565001050 394586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65270&oldid=65269 5* 03A 5* (-104) 10= reversed operands = reversed operands = reversed operands = reversed operands
> 1565001128 39384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65271&oldid=65270 5* 03A 5* (-24) 10/* Logical instructions */ I don't see how they are useful
< 1565001986 817924 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.93.86.30.158 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565002006 955365 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.93.86.30.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1565002045 236172 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.93.86.30.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeeeeeeet
< 1565002181 891391 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.93.86.30.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eet
< 1565002385 66689 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.93.86.30.158 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565004003 306093 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565004527 517726 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565004667 166154 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good afternoon. I am unhappy to report that making a second-order purely concatenative language does not help it express control. Monoids are sequential, control is branching.
< 1565004777 67548 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565004861 419836 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the objects under composition aren't functions, but something examinable (extensional?) like lists, then maybe. But in a strict definition of "concatenative" they're always described as functions.
< 1565004993 194247 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565005038 506295 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps my hon. and learned friend fungot knows a way to make a second order concatenative language?
< 1565005038 673636 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: i have another feeling. no, i mean the right thing
< 1565005054 198760 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conventionally, concatenative languages allow functions to be named. Only the function definitions are monoids. The program as a whole is a... some sort of DAG.
< 1565005116 288962 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure fungot knows a way -- the problem is our inability to understand what it means.
< 1565005116 624748 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i mean complex examples ( window managers, so i don't know enough. there should exist an implementation which is fast. especially for allocation of n bytes might be: why do you need
< 1565005512 899796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://www.nyu.edu/projects/barker/Iota/zot.html is vaguely related to this problem
< 1565005909 433531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vaguely.
< 1565005937 997349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (The connection being that it uses CPS to extract a tree structure from a linear representation. It's not quite concatenative as is (that needs another level of CPS) and it's untyped, probably inherently so.)
< 1565005958 149937 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Definitely not just second order.)
< 1565006111 85791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Funny how things go. I've encountered Zot yesterday mainly because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot#Jot is wrong.)
< 1565006171 734762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh and I can't correct it. "You are currently unable to edit Wikipedia."
< 1565006472 694392 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565006666 806351 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65272&oldid=65240 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+229) 10Telling User: A how I made another language. WIP
> 1565006696 159381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65273&oldid=65272 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+117) 10typo
< 1565006970 762515 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually somewhat wrong too.  You can have control structures, they just have to look like this: x;y;while(a){z;q;if(b){r;p;while(c){q;m;n;}}}
< 1565006991 562398 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't "un-nest" after you put one in.
< 1565007027 531793 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I think this is how it works out.
< 1565007047 661440 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what if you use the techniques of Lambda: the Gathering, where you can apply a function either from the left or from the right, and you emulate that with second order concatenative?
< 1565007097 323272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm not familiar with Lambda: the Gathering.
< 1565007113 224508 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: there ought to be a link from the wiki
< 1565007129 137632 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
< 1565007389 845459 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly that one cheats, you can compose functions only because of the mutable slots
< 1565007397 176379 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write to slots and read them
< 1565007416 98783 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea offhand how that would work with this, sorry.
> 1565008144 143078 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wang program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65274&oldid=46766 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+11) 10Why not use ref and references tags?
< 1565009116 517452 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565009455 486753 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I've got is TC, so there's no problem there, but it's TC in a "technically TC" rather than in an expressive way. You put a single top-level while around the whole thing, and you can simulate a UTM. Not unlike Burro (and I'm sure others.)
< 1565009488 167630 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's slightly interesting in its own way, so I'll probably continue on it.
< 1565009566 501529 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Concatentive with continuations" sounds interesting enough in *its* own way too though.
< 1565009597 193620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Rust's style for type annotations looks *wrong* to me:  let i: u32 = 4;  rather than  let i : u32 = 4; )
< 1565009597 256009 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people say "concatenative" is just a buzzword. Sometimes I agree with them. I've never really made up my mind on that.
< 1565009654 22238 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: maybe I'm getting old, the only difference I see is whitespace?
< 1565009670 411358 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine "concatenative" is like "functional", it means different things to different people
< 1565009700 752728 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think either of those work
< 1565009843 936085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I wrote "style" and I'm under the impression that https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch03-02-data-types.html is somewhat authoritative.
< 1565009872 237184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm very white-space sensitive when it comes to programming.
< 1565010219 223141 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565010467 631491 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Nellephant14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65275 5* 03Davipb 5* (+801) 10Possible cat program
< 1565010486 820163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also says something about how long I haven't touched Pascal.
> 1565010821 932518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65276&oldid=65273 5* 03A 5* (+228) 10/* Concern */
< 1565010953 235813 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565011627 586531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, I've learned (after a large amount of hunting around) that, while they are all similar, equational logic is not the same thing as equational propositional logic and is also not the same thing as equivalential calculus.
< 1565011682 435513 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm. is there also {equational,equivalential} {algebra,analysis}?
< 1565011831 749484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalential calculus seems to have almost nothing to do with equational logic... seeing that \equiv is only used between propositions.
< 1565012289 973231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well from a classical perspective neither equational propositional logic not equivalential calculus seem very interesting.
> 1565012322 608842 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65277&oldid=65276 5* 03A 5* (+195) 10/* Concern */
< 1565012467 648422 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equational propositional logic seems to have been invented by Gries to make discrete math easier to teach to undergrads. Which is fine, but WP's article on Equational logic conflates it with equational logic.
< 1565012492 40245 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emxovtxkmtmdoyya JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565012528 20519 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*David Gries
< 1565012532 313335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, equational logic works on terms... which allows a very rich structure, especially if you allow additional equational axioms.
< 1565012579 274948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, the Wikipedia page is quite misleading.
> 1565012605 326929 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65278&oldid=65277 5* 03A 5* (+227) 10/* Concern */
> 1565012624 556789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65279&oldid=65278 5* 03A 5* (+158) 10/* Concern */ Whoops, forgot to sign
< 1565012639 615461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EquationalLogic.html is much better
< 1565012653 797908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular by the inclusion of congruence)
> 1565012685 779391 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65280&oldid=65271 5* 03A 5* (-29) 10/* Built-in Sets */
> 1565012718 689930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65281&oldid=65279 5* 03A 5* (-78) 10/* Concern */ So am I
> 1565012742 693259 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65282&oldid=65281 5* 03A 5* (-307) 10/* Concern */ I also take that much time to write an interpreter.
< 1565012746 674925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: did you see the Wikipedia talk page?
< 1565012810 740668 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: No, haven't yet. But a lot of my own confusion cleared up after I started reading some course notes on a course on universal algebra. And coincidentally stumbling across equivalential calculus.
< 1565012819 739290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad nobody seems to have acted on this.
< 1565012854 852328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW both equivalential calculus and equational propisitional logic were new to me.
< 1565012880 678597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*propositional. Wow, I find this very hard to type :)
> 1565012920 884660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65283&oldid=65282 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+313) 10
< 1565012956 163750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: There is not much on the talk page, except that it points out the same problem of conflating equational logic and equational propositional logic that you've also pointed out.
> 1565012960 862210 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65284&oldid=65280 5* 03A 5* (-104) 10/* Logical instructions */ They are useless for now. Done in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Multi-Set_Manipulator/Subset
< 1565012992 302993 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yeah, if I had read it earlier... oh well
< 1565012993 617727 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: re https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-07-30.html#lxh virtual addresses on current cpus, there's a draft since 2016 for how x86 can extend to more than 48 bits of virtual address space https://software.intel.com/en-us/download/5-level-paging-and-5-level-ept-white-paper . It's not in any current or near future cpus, but it's at least recognized t
< 1565012994 116013 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hat they'll probably eventually need to do this.
> 1565013242 733610 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65285&oldid=65283 5* 03A 5* (+78) 10/* Concern */
> 1565013555 636441 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65286&oldid=65285 5* 03A 5* (+353) 10/* Concern */
> 1565013599 395393 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65287&oldid=65286 5* 03A 5* (-77) 10/* Concern */
< 1565013806 211989 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565013889 79936 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65288&oldid=65287 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10/* Concern */
> 1565013954 612427 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65289&oldid=65284 5* 03A 5* (-124) 10/* Miscellaneous instructions */ -2 operators
< 1565013969 428298 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I got into this in the first place because I was looking for a system where it is simple to make deductions. Equating two terms is pretty simple... but it turns out Frege's and Hilbert's systems use only modus ponens, and that's pretty simple too.
< 1565014013 552998 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was used to natural deduction, which trades off simplicity of the deductive process, for easier use.
> 1565014039 589687 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65290&oldid=65288 5* 03A 5* (-1138) 10/* Concern */
< 1565014074 410406 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I might try implementing a Hilbert-style proof checker instead of going down the equational route.
> 1565014097 241344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65291&oldid=65192 5* 03A 5* (-2066) 10
> 1565014121 748376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:25614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65292&oldid=65291 5* 03A 5* (-101) 10
< 1565014180 474292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hilbert just moves all the complexity into axiom schemata :P
< 1565014204 73631 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realize that :) I'm also not sure if these actually take away the complexity of implies-introduction or not.
< 1565014212 588505 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(these MP-based systems)
< 1565014244 409369 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you still have to do "Suppose x. We show that it entails y. Therefore x -> y" to get a new implication, then that complexity is still there
< 1565014269 970401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another trade-off is sequents vs. discharging assumptions...
> 1565014291 172857 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65293&oldid=65290 5* 03A 5* (+211) 10/* Concern */
< 1565014352 953366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is related to what you just wrote... with sequents, you can infer |- x -> y from x |- y. With assumptions, you'll infer x -> y from a proof of y that used x as an assumption.
< 1565014388 275291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or possibly didn't use that assumption at all).
> 1565014458 880624 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65294&oldid=65293 5* 03A 5* (-27) 10/* Concern */
> 1565014560 85669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65295&oldid=65294 5* 03A 5* (+77) 10/* Concern */
< 1565014571 928785 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565014600 109714 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh is *that* what a sequent is? Okay then!
> 1565014639 743992 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65296&oldid=65295 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* Concern */
< 1565014806 104460 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I half-re-invented it without entirely understanding what it was
< 1565014816 839253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In its most general form, a sequent is  P_1,...,P_n |- Q_1,...,Q_m, and (classically) means that P_1 /\ ... /\ P_n ==> Q_1 \/ ... \/ Q_n. But the common special case where there is exactly one Q_i is still called a sequent.
< 1565014909 439773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm using ==> with a lower precedence than /\ and \/)
> 1565014920 537052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65297&oldid=65289 5* 03A 5* (-113) 10N{0}Z+; Q-Q-(Q+)-{0}; R-R-(R+)-{0};
> 1565015076 872012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65298&oldid=65297 5* 03A 5* (-47) 10/* Built-in Sets */ Real numbers are trivial becase there isn't the ... operator anymore in MSM
> 1565015199 440976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65299&oldid=65298 5* 03A 5* (-90) 10/* Built-in Sets */ But you can't present decimals either.
< 1565015402 258359 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sequent calculus is what they always use for type judgments too, isn't it
< 1565015467 708488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They tend to use sequents ("judgements") indeed. (I'd be careful with "sequent calculus" because that carries certain inference rules with it, not just the syntax)
< 1565015509 443005 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sequent
< 1565015511 40318 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequent? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565015512 266590 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sequent calculus
< 1565015513 344169 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequent calculus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565015519 443938 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that what they use for linear logic?
< 1565015529 833304 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of got that |- and -> meant the same thing, but it has always been a bit fuzzy
< 1565015588 200136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's not so easy; the type system judgements often have several kinds of premises (say: types of variables, and values for type variables) and possibly yet another kind on the right-hand side, while (logical) sequents have only propositions.
> 1565015625 246100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65300&oldid=65299 5* 03A 5* (-35) 10~A All items that don't belong to A is useless in actual programming; also, it is impossible to implement.
> 1565015643 396954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65301&oldid=65300 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10
> 1565015700 47671 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65302&oldid=65301 5* 03A 5* (+138) 10/* Built-in Sets */
> 1565016053 448969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65303&oldid=65302 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10/* Set-manipulational instructions */ Overly complex.
> 1565016690 569976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65304&oldid=65303 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Set-manipulational instructions */
< 1565016727 666942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Linear logic seems usually be presented with sequents, but its inventor would seem to promote using "proof nets" instead
< 1565016736 453931 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all very wacky
< 1565016744 218583 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But useful
< 1565016754 279346 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore not kooky
< 1565016756 974501 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something
< 1565016774 508233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I still don't know what a proof net is.
< 1565016857 302771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't want to find out today either.
< 1565016868 684998 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully they're all equivalent syntactic tricks
> 1565016901 622120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65305&oldid=65304 5* 03A 5* (+90) 10
> 1565017384 290466 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65306&oldid=65305 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Built-in Sets */
> 1565017410 830277 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65307&oldid=65306 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10
> 1565017424 199589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65308&oldid=65307 5* 03A 5* (-16) 10/* Built-in Sets */
< 1565017860 272176 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that in en.Wikipedia article titles, only three start with an ascii comma, and all three are redirects?
< 1565017869 825416 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's in the main namespace.)
< 1565017877 884412 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not!
< 1565017891 615514 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly I'm a little surprised that articles are allowed to begin with a comma
< 1565017905 326790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :, is this a bot prefix? :P
< 1565017916 700219 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in #nixos and probably other places
< 1565017924 517498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/, is something obvious :)
< 1565017926 515259 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^prefixes
< 1565017926 583678 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
< 1565017928 362155 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`prefixes
< 1565017930 566371 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
< 1565017950 780864 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should bring back pietbot
< 1565017986 861366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily should bring himself back, and then metasepia.
< 1565018006 538355 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ +/i.10
< 1565018007 291199 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: 45
< 1565018009 938718 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can write J!
< 1565018028 300009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ how bad are the J error messages?
< 1565018028 975298 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |value error: the
< 1565018028 993662 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |   how bad are     the J error messages?
< 1565018091 488610 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which of those prefixes are abandonned enough that someone else could potentially usurp it if they provide an even marginally useful use for one
< 1565018124 27060 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) is definitely reusable; ISTR it's left in the fungot prefixes only because that command is implemented in underload and it'd be hard for it to print unbalanced parenthesis
< 1565018124 444225 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this reminds me of the conversations i ever have trouble sleeping, i'll ride around in buses. tampere might have, can have pccard for even about 30e, recommended.
< 1565018146 147395 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I should have rode around in buses last night when I couldn't sleep
< 1565018146 374624 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cheap
< 1565018155 135921 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I instead read Lord of the Rings for a bit)
< 1565018174 94726 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? metasepia
< 1565018175 988686 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
< 1565018176 853625 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? idris-bot
< 1565018178 53849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :idris-bot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565018179 128206 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? jconn
< 1565018180 140478 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :jconn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565018195 506466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I still remember idris-bot.
< 1565018219 345076 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that means I should remove right paren from the prefixes wisdom, since that one doesn't have a problem with unbalanced parens
< 1565018245 19363 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember thutubot, nor jconn; and boith Egobot and metasepia have not been around in the past 5 years?
< 1565018252 417421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boith -> neither
< 1565018255 747616 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ->
< 1565018262 967278 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and -> nor
< 1565018268 132046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(too many edits. sorry)
< 1565018277 616153 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: jconn was an instance of jevalbot, the same bot that j-bot is also an instance of, evaluates J, and its terrible source code written by me
< 1565018294 664971 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> var"lambdabot listens to greater than too, right?"
< 1565018299 742533 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : lambdabot listens to greater than too, right?
< 1565018303 984515 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@run "yeah"
< 1565018306 770527 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : "yeah"
< 1565018321 20553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@eval "Hi"
< 1565018353 73852 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help eval
< 1565018353 448193 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval. Do nothing (perversely)
< 1565018355 74912 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis eval
< 1565018356 125034 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval(1p) - construct command by concatenating arguments \ eval(8lambdabot) - no description \ eval(8jevalbot) - evaluate J fret, names in main namespace are persistent
< 1565018412 921004 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm particularly curious about the tilde, because it looks like a nice prefix
< 1565018812 117616 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, nobody has complained about the POTM yet.
< 1565018819 320863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is disappointed.
< 1565018933 650077 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`password
< 1565018934 428585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oxptjpydghfgkbp
< 1565018936 257632 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password
< 1565018937 254270 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is surprising.
< 1565018951 13077 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: do people often complain about it?
< 1565018959 811199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: constantly.
< 1565018971 379380 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's surprising
< 1565019000 489685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be exaggerating slightly :P
< 1565019036 625030 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`potm
< 1565019037 152593 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: potm: not found
< 1565019038 447556 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pom
< 1565019039 133045 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Moon is Waxing Crescent (27% of Full)
< 1565021156 257021 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O
< 1565021160 445631 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ddate
< 1565021161 36598 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today is Boomtime, the 71st day of Confusion in the YOLD 3185
< 1565021276 397887 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565021455 371373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wrote a JotaCode program for Discordian calendar, too
< 1565021957 345554 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1565021966 931467 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: have you read Principia Discordia?
< 1565022003 832451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I have read it
< 1565022255 555298 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The code is object #20165 on ifMUD.)
< 1565022434 928171 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1565025116 239121 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565027428 425740 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565028335 246143 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565028657 400986 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emxovtxkmtmdoyya QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565028761 624901 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrkinvitetdmducv JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565032552 822541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s\n" phantom*hoover # what the...
< 1565032553 504254 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :phantom____________________hoover \ phantom__________hoover \ phantom_______hoover \ phantom___hoover \ phantom__hoover \ phantom_hoover
< 1565032653 459851 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-wxwsqbbqbxndbnvp QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565033060 936792 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kxodpquqwkshixjg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565033313 949376 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565033724 216506 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565033944 205016 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1565034825 375069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65309&oldid=65246 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-163) 10
< 1565035355 256524 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565035661 159342 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565035802 259547 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565035826 97162 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565035868 522108 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-139-94-170.range86-139.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565037322 896702 :pecan!~pecan@c-73-14-46-8.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565038560 127219 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565040075 301172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally! I managed to hit alt-s to open the history menu in firefox. I keep hitting alt-h and then have to correct because alt-h opens the help menu
< 1565040087 473811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might be a first
< 1565040137 252434 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION claps
< 1565040141 434091 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mails b_jonas a cake
< 1565040145 651922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks
< 1565040168 90440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: can you mail me a cake twh
< 1565040186 845714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also higan mchiïster
< 1565040197 375281 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1565040202 164545 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of cake do you guys like
< 1565040229 116590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :chocolate with soft sponge layers
< 1565040237 530546 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know about Baumkuchen
< 1565040243 632888 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fancy german cake that's baked on a spit
< 1565040248 281331 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :layering on batter as you go
< 1565040250 392863 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence "tree cake"
< 1565040254 9432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy
< 1565040266 579627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "spit"?
< 1565040279 695300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is both a description of Baumkichen and a description of the kind of cake i like
< 1565040280 666012 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a horizontal rotating bar
< 1565040291 977339 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is often used to cook chickens
< 1565040293 53991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, my birthday happen recently and i got a cake in the mail
< 1565040294 39937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1565040297 537976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :happened
< 1565040297 725401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know "spit" meant that
< 1565040299 784792 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: really! happy birthday
< 1565040302 927471 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what kind was it?
< 1565040329 48834 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :strawberry ice cream cake
< 1565040352 838468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: wow, that was fast! it arrived to shachaf in negative time
< 1565040364 573971 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortuantely i had a fruit fly infestation at the time so leaving the cake out to thaw was a bad idea
< 1565040382 924482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the time i ate it it had flies embedded in it which i tried to remove
< 1565040421 481632 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no
< 1565040424 270322 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :F
< 1565040435 44749 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should get some carnivorous plants
< 1565040453 131569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more civilized than herbivorous plants
< 1565040465 317871 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parasitic epiphytes?
< 1565041715 792901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: did you know this fact:
< 1565041719 954805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :many things are good
< 1565042477 734965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cave of Anti-magic {-} Land ;; Shroud ;; {1UU}, {T}, Discard a card: Counter target spell. ;; {1WW}, {T}, Discard a card: Destroy target enchantment.
< 1565042820 623057 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565042835 885830 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: plausible
< 1565043053 382486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no no. there's a good reason why that sort of repeatable counterspelling without restrictions doesn't appear on M:tG cards, even with the discard cost.
< 1565043075 504061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't _look_ broken, but I think it would be if they printed it
< 1565043076 312530 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1565043096 39887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :counterspells? i just met 'er!
< 1565043124 296579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like it didn't occur to Wizards, because they have a lot of spellshapers with a similar discard+{T}+mana cost
< 1565043127 228312 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it can be improved
< 1565043149 711976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dawnstrider is already bad enough
< 1565043262 278311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the enchantment destruction part is probably fine though, see Devout Witness
< 1565043290 422534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to get away with the counterspelling, you'll have to ask some restriction on what spell it can target. there's some versions like that.
< 1565043297 65775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Diplomatic Es
< 1565043305 628723 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diplomatic Escort \ 1U \ Creature -- Human Spellshaper \ 1/1 \ {U}, {T}, Discard a card: Counter target spell or ability that targets a creature. \ MM-U
< 1565043331 130210 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Hisoka, Minamo Sensei
< 1565043331 873502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hisoka, Minamo Sensei \ 2UU \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 1/3 \ {2}{U}, Discard a card: Counter target spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the discarded card. \ CHK-R
< 1565043340 327438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... if they can print this:
< 1565043347 527474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Ghost-Lit Warder
< 1565043348 133333 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ghost-Lit Warder \ 1U \ Creature -- Spirit \ 1/1 \ {3}{U}, {T}: Counter target spell unless its controller pays {2}. \ Channel -- {3}{U}, Discard Ghost-Lit Warder: Counter target spell unless its controller pays {4}. \ SOK-U
< 1565043357 401537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe you can do an unlimited counterspell too somehow
< 1565043380 232965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect not the way you just tried though
< 1565043464 684275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Stronghold Biol
< 1565043465 401154 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stronghold Biologist \ 2U \ Creature -- Human Spellshaper \ 1/1 \ {U}{U}, {T}, Discard a card: Counter target creature spell. \ NE-U
< 1565043472 91494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Stronghold Machi
< 1565043472 764904 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stronghold Machinist \ 2U \ Creature -- Human Spellshaper \ 1/1 \ {U}{U}, {T}, Discard a card: Counter target noncreature spell. \ NE-U
< 1565043483 808139 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1565043531 87386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the repeated counter that I use is
< 1565043534 566934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Disruptive
< 1565043535 229594 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disruptive Pitmage \ 2U \ Creature -- Human Wizard \ 1/1 \ {T}: Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. \ Morph {U} (You may cast this card face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.) \ ONS-C \  \ Disruptive Student \ 2U \ Creature -- Human Wizard \ 1/1 \ {T}: Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. \ US-C
< 1565043698 571339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-89.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565044160 835357 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1565047528 216005 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565047755 433135 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the Wikipedia Jot entry does seem wrong, do you have a particular correction in mind? I can't quite figure out what a clear improvement would be. 11100 = (ι(ι(ιι)) (= K) seems to be what is intended, but (ιι)(ιι) would be an empty string? 
< 1565047832 875863 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole single sentence description of Jot seems like it is flawed, and I'm not sure how to relate it back to the source material, without writing something completely different.
< 1565049784 244019 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565049890 553123 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565049894 910066 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude
< 1565052301 261268 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565054482 477769 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote on a paper my ideas about how to make upa better television set.
< 1565057955 548925 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1565058554 796937 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh?
< 1565058577 42676 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565058841 560904 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some stuff I wrote, such as, there is 4:3 display, and on the right is the buttons, IR receiver, status display, OSD switch, speaker, and also a remote control holder.
< 1565058924 569993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the back, there is the sections of inputs: two Digi-RGB sections (each having Digi-RGB, left audio, right audio, and IMIDI), one composite section (composite, left audio, right audio), one component section (Y, Cr, Cb, left audio, right audio; there is also a mode to use the component section as a second composite section), and RF.
< 1565058954 929822 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also on the back is the reset switch, the IMIDI out port, the audio output (if you want to use external speakers), and several dip switches.
< 1565059012 9261 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it is good?
< 1565059044 271846 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems pretty reasonable
< 1565059049 359623 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why 4:3?
< 1565059096 42254 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565059118 97024 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To take up less space, mainly.
< 1565059136 324320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If such a TV set is manufactured, it could come in both 4:3 and 16:9 versions, I suppose.
< 1565059322 603158 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there would be the software features, such as caption scrollback, numeric command prefixes (similar to vi), adjustment of colour conversion matrix, etc.
< 1565059566 575278 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565059804 177393 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565060388 246324 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and there is also a ethernet port. This could be used for streaming video/audio, but Gopher and ViewData could possibly also be implemented.
< 1565060546 896381 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be the only person on earth who wants a TV that can browse Gopher using a vi-like interface
< 1565060554 904711 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not going to say you're wrong
< 1565060558 164262 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :follow your dreams
< 1565061758 244078 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think ViewData was designed for television (according to a photograph I have seen, at least), so it will work well in this way.
> 1565066456 168442 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65310&oldid=65263 5* 03A 5* (+60) 10/* Natural numbers set not using the built-in N */
< 1565067057 249659 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are all of the control codes for Viewdata anyways?
> 1565067305 577703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65311&oldid=65308 5* 03A 5* (+165) 10Extend this subset
> 1565067591 626708 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65312&oldid=65311 5* 03A 5* (-3) 10/* Set-comparison instructions */
> 1565068262 141797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65313&oldid=65312 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10
< 1565068352 43977 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565070012 737777 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TVim: TV improved
< 1565071858 23475 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: It's not just the example that's wrong. The translation of w1 is plain wrong, ever since this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iota_and_Jot&diff=757746945&oldid=757746752 (the translation of w0 is correct, but not a simplification over [w0] = [w]SK).
< 1565072104 789979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: Referring to the esolang page on Jot, the whole point of the translation of w1 is that it operates on arguments to the right, combining two of them, so that [F{K}] = [F11100] = [F1110]SK = [F111]SKSK = [F11](SK)SK = [F1](SKS)K = [F](SKSK) = [F]K holds regardless of F.
< 1565072219 923675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: (That's one of the base cases of proving the identity [F{A}] = [F]A that the esolang wiki page mentions.\)
< 1565072402 359785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it seems I can edit today. Different IP :P
< 1565072750 314613 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: Yes, I suppose, such thing can be "TV improved", maybe. And then, we will also have VCR/DVD improved.
< 1565072782 535267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: higan
< 1565072784 444191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :singing is tg
< 1565072793 857748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my fact of the day
> 1565074635 384856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65314&oldid=65313 5* 03A 5* (-19) 10
< 1565075427 841603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: So I've edited the page, let's see whether the edit survives Wikipedia's general disdain for "IPs".
> 1565075457 239911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/Smaller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65315&oldid=65314 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10
< 1565075602 235179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Meh, these things always take me so long.)
< 1565076807 254391 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565078926 940004 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1565079084 454051 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565079216 180988 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565080974 849023 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. How about a stack-based language that is statically typechecked by translating all operations to operations that push and pop type-values to the stack instead, and running that.
< 1565081218 909544 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to be a bit careful if there's any non-trivial control flow
< 1565082019 400531 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565082075 888551 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. That's one of the things that makes it kind of interesting though.
< 1565082191 642700 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have while loops, say, you can make sure the body is of type (A:Bool) -> B, with the condition B -> (A:Bool), for example
< 1565082194 184062 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: as for that, I wonder, is there some widely supported standard for transmitting raw (uncompressed) digital audio through wires, sort of like DVI but for audio instead of video? and if so, why not? 
< 1565082194 897750 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that everyone uses either analog audio (or even composite) or bluetooth audio.
< 1565082316 965074 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is despite that we've had audio CD equipment for ages
< 1565082384 100603 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my scheme would restrict the language to being a LBA, I think (correspondign to simply typed lambda calculus))
< 1565083650 191942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: rebooting
> 1565084708 604776 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TheOnlyMrcat 5*  10New user account
< 1565084820 549528 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565084823 456872 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
> 1565085028 582455 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65316&oldid=65247 5* 03TheOnlyMrcat 5* (+238) 10/* Introductions */
< 1565085087 46100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome andrewtheircer
< 1565085088 211035 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1565085109 746036 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565085120 917456 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say that again!
< 1565085154 727925 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough*
< 1565085159 579396 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :GREETINGS FELLOW HUMANS
< 1565085181 651978 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi to you and hi to you, hackeso and shachaf
< 1565085229 61583 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it allowed to sing the creeper aw man song here
< 1565085287 645879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it's permitted to sing into your microphone while in this channel.
< 1565085294 798030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've certainly done so.
< 1565085298 125334 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1565085298 979213 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1565085312 172416 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone says "creeper" then another person says "aw man"
< 1565085317 362222 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the rest of the lyrics
< 1565085346 917134 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Do you know things about QBF solvers, remind me?
< 1565085366 681161 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think reciting the lyrics into your microphone is also permitted.
< 1565085372 640690 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then i'll stop referencing a 7 year old song
< 1565085398 253622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_hierarchy has Sigma, Pi, and Delta, but no Sigma -| Delta -| Pi adjunction.
< 1565085426 526 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so confusing. The letter Δ should be banned for this use.
< 1565085453 229457 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bit.do/brainfuckextensionplans check this out
< 1565085538 724553 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Video) - YouTube
< 1565085550 987597 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck
< 1565085556 72503 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :my rickroll failed
< 1565085574 469205 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't try to trick people like that. It's quite rude.
< 1565085588 871820 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565085606 436818 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two types of people in this world: those who listen to that on purpose
< 1565085610 501965 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those who don't
< 1565085761 136338 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :this chat has deceased
< 1565086101 233738 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :onions
< 1565086212 949626 :andrewtheircer!5d561e9e@93-86-30-158.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565086257 512201 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrkinvitetdmducv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565086805 863557 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don not know things about QBF solvers
< 1565086850 942717 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I barely know anything about anything, quite frankly.
< 1565086859 313754 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I find out about QBF solvers?
< 1565086921 892731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't know much about QBF solvers.
< 1565086935 549737 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565086939 505842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One good trick is to come to Berkeley and ask edwardk about them.
< 1565086943 699857 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would start at http://www.qbflib.org/qbfeval19.php
< 1565086947 324540 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you famous sha
< 1565086961 636778 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the eso community
< 1565086964 285426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the most famous sha of them all.
< 1565086965 610070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've seen some QBF solver basics.)
< 1565086966 837687 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Berkeley's all the way in Gloucestershire, though
< 1565086970 964066 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's practically on the west coast!
< 1565086971 809605 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They call me SHA-256.
< 1565086990 311625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty far.
< 1565087010 995653 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1565087018 664943 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you made esos before
< 1565087020 860262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually they call me SHA-512/256.
< 1565087042 572423 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, Berkeley was where vaccination was invented
< 1565087065 348585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was in China or something?
< 1565087067 100096 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically the word vaccine comes from antivaxxers of the time as they thought vaccines would turn you into a cow :p
< 1565087088 53820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess the 2018 edition is more fruitful for now. But you should learn some tool names, which will lead to corresponding papers, which will be educational.)
< 1565087108 692234 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? 
< 1565087112 167884 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? vaccine
< 1565087112 960558 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaccine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565087113 764896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1565087114 580544 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :737)  U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
< 1565087136 651135 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is that where the legends about werecows come from?
< 1565087150 494973 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye
< 1565087160 548575 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1565087161 152899 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :796)  typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
< 1565087165 860851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe solvers that just support two quantifiers or something are more interesting in practice.
< 1565087171 999923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlimited quantifiers seems pretty extreme.
< 1565087177 250686 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you program y'all
< 1565087191 440827 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains why a mad scientist would become one
< 1565087247 795522 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: eso based on onions
< 1565087319 45590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the particular class is called 2QBF and has its own track at QBFEVAL..
< 1565087345 763861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense.
< 1565087362 547327 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :2Q2BF
< 1565087369 922170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since the objective is to *decide* formulas there's no real difference between the \forall\exists and \exists\forall prefixes)
< 1565087429 80796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably this is sigma_2 and pi_2 or something.
< 1565087430 174879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :a
< 1565087439 427491 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a mathematician
< 1565087447 810177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They're just dual of each other.
< 1565087516 557947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they left and right adjoint to some functor? twh
< 1565087580 966033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that you need to ask somebody who cares about category theory.
< 1565087603 43331 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only objection is to this delta thing.
< 1565087613 851018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delta should always mean diagonal or difference.
< 1565087655 349479 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect \Delta is for "deterministic"
< 1565087672 272591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly "decision"
< 1565087698 670851 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote q =
< 1565087699 308973 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1288)  (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
< 1565087711 886880 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a bot hackeso
< 1565087724 455008 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you all have very specific ideas on how the use of letters should be restricted
< 1565087733 295122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what if q is a state of an automaton though...
< 1565087740 752692 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :being a not-mathematician, i don't
< 1565087851 78799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems fine for a two-state automaton.
< 1565087878 80117 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :shallots
< 1565087881 559503 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I guess using delta for diagonal is only a category thing?
< 1565087893 958578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do normal people call f : a -> (a,a)?
< 1565087921 468493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: `dup` is the suggestion recently/currently discussed on the haskell libaries mailing list
< 1565087925 242893 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \a -> (a,a)
< 1565087925 504142 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :join (,)
< 1565087944 135028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*libraries
< 1565087975 885936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`diag` is a plausible name, of course.
< 1565087976 455875 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: diag`: not found
< 1565088011 321776 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I would probably use a lower case delta in formal writing, if I needed a name.
< 1565088026 512199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, people use lowercase delta for it rather than capital.
< 1565088167 344876 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayyy
< 1565088181 992740 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: whitespace (the eso) but with added blank characters
< 1565089173 208805 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565089355 666413 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi chris
< 1565089516 916040 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :canned coochie
< 1565090142 368662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565090262 354949 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ping
< 1565092795 917524 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that looks a lot better (Jot wikipedia edit) thank you! The article is trying to refer everything back to the Barker's iota combinator, and your last sentence does that. I was wondering if there was a simpler example to show w1, but I guess it's not that simple an operation. [w]S & [w]K are useful examples, and the intermediate steps are fol
< 1565092796 416849 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lowable using the info on the page. Good stuff :)
< 1565092808 824987 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi sal
> 1565092825 656589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ACL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65317&oldid=65309 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-25) 10/* History and Turing Completeness */
< 1565092928 635304 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565093097 92834 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for opinions on what delta means in maths, how about 4? Some pretty decent mathematicians used that convention quite early on.
< 1565093133 595881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: thanks for the feedback!
< 1565093311 622471 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll keep an eye on the page and defend your IP edit if needed :)
< 1565093413 21823 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565093788 233510 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565094067 199779 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565098915 478864 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kxodpquqwkshixjg QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565099440 346573 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh also
< 1565099447 494744 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something I should say
< 1565099479 95753 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent a weekend in London as a short family vacation. there was something that I found very confusing:
< 1565099639 178820 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most bus stations had a street level map of its surroundings, which is great, but the problem is, they were all roated such that down on the map was the direction that the sign faced, rather than consistently south.
< 1565099659 645867 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It drove me crazy because I saw the map oriented randomly in different directions every time. 
< 1565099687 509696 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to follow maps that way.
< 1565099694 590530 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Means you don't need a compass to navigate
< 1565099742 691336 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's OK when you get used to it
< 1565099771 596838 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get used to it, you no longer need the map signs in the bus stops
< 1565099832 102273 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fix is probably to buy a paper city map and ignore the maps on the signs (but still look at the other info on the signs, such as the name of the station and which bus lines stop there and towards where and how often)
< 1565099852 857006 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have probably done that
< 1565099984 822479 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think being able to read a map oriented that way is a more transferable ability than you're suggesting
< 1565100000 657349 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't want to have to
< 1565100007 488897 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't they just put normal maps up?
< 1565100024 554240 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's my fault, I should have bought a paper map and used it
< 1565100029 327928 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a "normal map"?
< 1565100071 595503 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A normal map is like the good maps we used to have 20 years ago, that are no longer possible to buy because not enough people pay for them to be worth economically to make *sigh*
< 1565100090 566762 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for Budapest they no longer exist
< 1565100108 393697 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using a combination of a fresh map with the last good map that there was
< 1565100206 368296 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one is from 2001
< 1565100239 519569 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or from 2009, I dunno
< 1565100243 498371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to check that at home
< 1565100302 159771 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565100729 484557 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565101670 318510 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1565101787 702759 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565101816 880660 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-nmfbkwpewrpgnrpj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565101869 382397 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
> 1565102528 158382 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65318 5* 03A 5* (+1589) 10Created page with "This is a string-based version of [[Multi-Set Manipulator/Subset]], as there are programming difficulties for using lists.  This attempts to make Multi-Set Manipulator a pure..."
> 1565102842 634419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65319&oldid=65318 5* 03A 5* (+75) 10
> 1565103081 464468 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Gamer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65320 5* 03Andrew3335 5* (+211) 10Created page with "It was really fun making that math paper language with you. Sorry if I'm really really late, but thanks for that endeavor. It was my best language so far (dotlang was a befung..."
< 1565103579 421488 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1565105314 621905 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqshibqlclmfhgxn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565105564 549620 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565105602 776994 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565107201 732593 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4
< 1565109478 712999 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565110799 497078 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565110934 629016 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565111213 384138 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565111791 230618 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565113537 389980 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had idea about something similar to a "do notation" like Haskell but to use with a preprocessor for JavaScript codes. Such as:   const listMonad=(m,f)=>[].concat(...m.map(f)); const x=listMonad*>{ let a=yield [1,2,9]; let b=[3,4,5,7]; return a-b; };
< 1565113682 483293 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1565113696 802301 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo
< 1565113833 219963 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made recurseme right?
< 1565113976 590357 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57376279/ thoughts abuot this?
< 1565113993 923418 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565114014 725368 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565114014 784173 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :texas
< 1565114233 761090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565114266 639398 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais
< 1565114282 427048 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: thoughts
< 1565114295 316586 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh
< 1565114297 811039 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno
< 1565114312 400031 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to be a programmer but now i know nothing
< 1565114541 751176 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :boot
< 1565114871 650013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e'while(<>) { if (/^----- ([0-9]+) /) { 13 == $1 and last; } elsif (/^[^ ]/) { m"^[(]?([\-\x27./A-Za-z]+)[!)+*]*\r?$" or die "syntax $_"; push @w,$1; } } print $w[rand@w]," " for 1..21; print "\n";' /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt
< 1565114872 458798 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :partial palm meter breathe near specific agreement beat striking liver qualify western above entity convince subject ranch viewer gas manager extensive
< 1565114900 443188 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you trying to do
< 1565114909 838191 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565114923 714441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :printing random common words
< 1565114941 550263 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565114945 146665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words 21
< 1565114946 646116 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ficising creed wportie michtfully cribarabe sain convidentwo vale dra tallatek zygeima acheth eilesita ally iii bcnchover woien devell baram donne ryon
< 1565114963 97779 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words 1
< 1565114964 491845 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :biecioul
< 1565114964 612205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and random mythic rare words
< 1565114969 743533 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's word is objection
< 1565114985 301995 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many time travelling esoteric languages've been done
< 1565115697 214217 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.63.191 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565115764 941659 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :GARFIELD
< 1565115917 668492 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :check my link andrewtheircer
< 1565116188 22349 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't
< 1565116240 275835 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why
< 1565116257 115463 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno
< 1565116259 596828 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm actually 14
< 1565116476 31978 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: so? that's not an adult site, StackOverflow can be written from the age of 13, read by anyone
< 1565116491 144438 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't actually program then
< 1565116501 351242 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i friggen don't know the problem
< 1565116520 286597 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565116628 635604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1565116675 893156 :andrewtheircer!4d2ee545@77-46-229-69.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565117606 618547 :diverger!~div@192.145.126.136 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565117649 251560 :diverger!~div@192.145.126.136 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565118137 388251 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565118631 760414 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565119931 606459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In athletics sport, when do you suppose the traditional approach to high jump with a fixed bar will get replaced by a grid of lights and detectors so that the jumper doesn't have to bet on how high he jumps exactly where and in what directions, the detectors just figure out what the highest line is that he's jumped over? (A bar, lower than usual, can still be there as a guideline for approximately where 
< 1565119937 561360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the detectors are.)
< 1565120081 607969 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There can still be multiple attempts of jumps of course.
< 1565120246 241656 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is an interesting idea
< 1565120285 482036 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that major league baseball is going to start using radar to judge whether a ball has gone through the strike zone or not
< 1565120296 941890 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1565120380 710495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could do something with long jump and hammer throw too so that it's automatically measured where exactly someone took the last step before the jump or threw from respectively and subtract it
< 1565120397 527403 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the umpire will still make a call but is expected to agree with the machine in typical cases
< 1565120417 327547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'd still be some intervals of course, because of technical limitations, in all of those cases, but still it could help
< 1565120440 286776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, perhaps even for short distance running people would no longer have to start at exactly the same moment
< 1565120459 143931 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and short distance swimming too
< 1565120732 377096 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course put them in air conditioned buildings so that there's no wind and carefully controlled predictable temperature and air pressure and humidity, and make multiple different categories depending on what accleration the artificial gravitation generator is set to
< 1565121362 540451 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
< 1565121440 215900 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565121493 492598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :swimmers have always tried to swim in water of various temperatures, and of course for high level competitions in short distance swimming, they try to set a temperature close to ideal. the Mythbusters even did some attempt to try water with viscosity much higher than usual. but I think nobody experimented with swimming in lower than usual or higher than usual gravity yet.
< 1565121668 393022 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's kind of a hard thing to test, lots of water is kind of a pain to work with
< 1565121683 932398 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it shouldn't matter a whole lot, at least if you're submerged
< 1565121710 106430 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :since your density is basically the same as water's
< 1565121727 621546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: sure, although sea water can be denser than normal
< 1565121780 720806 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, and a couple of lakes are saltier/denser still
< 1565121903 677115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the Dead Sea most famously, only it's in the Middle East where there are some ... political problems
< 1565122165 476515 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565122349 979584 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's actually not that different from the great salt lake's salinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bodies_of_water_by_salinity
< 1565122369 448753 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565122433 891901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: I, um, might be biased and heard more of the former because it's closer to here
< 1565122938 987995 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565123305 482313 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you play any Washizu mahjong or dark mahjong or any other kind of Fukumoto variants of mahjong?
< 1565123332 580236 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never played any variant of mahjong including the normal one
< 1565123579 854196 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Washizu mahjong requires most (but not all) of the tiles to be transparent (so that your opponent can see it too), but dark mahjong can use the ordinary equipment for mahjong.
< 1565123644 461602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by transparent, do you mean they're marked on the back too?
< 1565123664 245755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you see them even in the wall/deck from where you're drawing the cards?
< 1565123704 882226 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That is one way to implement it (I have seen this as a suggestion), but the set I have uses tiles that you can actually see through.
< 1565123728 956455 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Washizu mahjong the tiles are drawn from a bag (and you will wear a glove on that hand), so you can't see them before they are drawn.
< 1565123783 662073 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4976:6dd0:66d3:b85 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565123819 247287 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565123869 682201 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dark mahjong is you are allowed to discard face-down, but doing so costs 1000 points. Opponent can try to make it face-up by a payment of 2000 points, but if the discarder then bets an additional 4000 points then it remains face-down. However, it is still allowed to call ron on that tile even though you cannot see it! If you do so correctly, then the score for your hand is doubled.
< 1565123871 397522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I see. I'm just used to cards, not mahjong, which is why I find the idea of transparent strange, although admittedly there is one commercial card game with actually transparent plastic cards (called Swish IIRC)
< 1565123885 907269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, drawn from a bag, like in Scrabble. makes sense.
< 1565123917 346840 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some rules for dark mahjong are still unclear though, such as how face-down discarding interacts with furiten.)
< 1565123986 545512 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565124030 338228 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565127924 364731 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.63.191 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1565128433 545774 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565133202 856889 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565134505 521127 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565136274 697392 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565136628 329429 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1565136710 114121 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565136718 803148 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565136728 296563 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565136918 67775 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1565136932 315245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565139343 733399 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Can Sgeolang be ALGOL 68?
< 1565139350 449321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That language was so good.
< 1565139663 345633 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565142749 179586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar koak
< 1565142749 869401 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 070053Z 30013KT 10SM FEW009 BKN180 20/13 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP123 T02000133
> 1565145679 40899 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65321&oldid=65319 5* 03A 5* (+139) 10
< 1565145909 683618 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar KSFO
< 1565145910 360696 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KSFO 070156Z 27015KT 10SM FEW007 SCT180 19/12 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP123 T01890122
< 1565145942 442103 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The US codes are so easy.
< 1565145948 950226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just add K.
< 1565146158 313575 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1565146178 921713 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar KSJC
< 1565146179 258396 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KSJC 070153Z 33014KT 10SM FEW050 SCT100 BKN160 23/16 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP117 T02280161 $
> 1565148216 818245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65322&oldid=65296 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+237) 10
< 1565151331 298220 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565151339 253028 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you spit poison will it last? I would think it might lose its potency after enough time has passed, especially if the floor might absorb it and if it is exposed to the wind.
> 1565151715 128594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65323&oldid=65321 5* 03A 5* (+16) 10
< 1565151974 236237 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would depend on the poison, I suppose
< 1565152216 775599 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, presumably the floor and wind speed
< 1565152527 981958 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, OK, I suppose so.
< 1565152554 595846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else do you think might affect it?
< 1565152808 128412 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vapor pressure, temperature, phase of the moon
> 1565153102 389217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65324&oldid=65323 5* 03A 5* (+120) 10
> 1565153117 492729 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65325&oldid=65324 5* 03A 5* (-36) 10/* Set-manipulational instructions */
< 1565153337 424729 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1565154151 810349 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish ShaderToy would do a little bit of server-side rendering so it would be possible to browse the list without melting my GPU
> 1565154276 766400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65326&oldid=65325 5* 03A 5* (+443) 10
> 1565154464 564622 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65327&oldid=65326 5* 03A 5* (-35) 10
> 1565154975 37871 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65328&oldid=65327 5* 03A 5* (-77) 10/* Output its own golf score */
> 1565155323 316869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65329&oldid=65328 5* 03A 5* (+49) 10
< 1565155764 144779 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565155789 341392 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565156925 888045 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqshibqlclmfhgxn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565159062 785751 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to track down a copy of the original P-double-prime (𝓟″) paper from 1964, pp.187-194 vol. 3 of the ICC Bulletin. It seems like a digital copy is non-existent. Has anyone here ever seen one?
< 1565159079 976742 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm contemplating making a copy (8 pages) from a physical library https://www.worldcat.org/title/icc-bulletin/oclc/2222680 but it'll be a bit of a long-term mission.
< 1565159193 818812 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a 1979 paper which mentions 𝓟′ which is the original language that 𝓟″ is a context-free improvement on. Also a 𝓟‴ lang (P-triple-prime!) by D. Skordev (1976) is briefly described, and a further development, 𝓟⁰ by the author, Solomon Passy.
< 1565159268 592264 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did find copies of Bohm and Jacopini's paper on Flow Diagrams which talks about both 𝓟′ & 𝓟″, and Bohm's 1954 thesis in original French and 2016 English translation, which predates those languages, but relates to digital computing.
< 1565159287 569847 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 1964 paper does not appear to be online ... yet
< 1565159476 857524 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 1979 paper that describes the extended 𝓟 languages is available https://documents.pub/document/structured-programs-for-turing-machines.html
< 1565159938 722623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try asking User:R.e.s.
< 1565160020 672496 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solomon Passy... never heard of him...
< 1565160302 681610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but Böhm is famous of course.
< 1565160387 231987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's the right Böhm that is, hmm.
< 1565160414 921231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems to be the case... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hm_tree
< 1565160439 100610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*not* the garbage collector person)
< 1565160695 78659 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, Corado Böhm is the creator of 𝓟″
< 1565160770 651298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. https://doi.org/10.2307/2270680 ... that's a 3 line review (fully visible in the screenshot) that they offer to let you buy for 30 Euros...
< 1565160838 544938 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, that kept turning up. It took me a while to realise that the 3 line review was actually the full content for that DOI!
< 1565160987 70795 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best info I could find from others who went looking is here https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/14983/how-to-prove-the-structured-program-theorem but it's not clear that they got to see it.
< 1565161025 15270 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wow, that's User:R.e.s that shachaf just mentioned?
< 1565161271 444918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I agree that the paper doesn't appear to be available online.
> 1565161580 94710 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MUSYS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65330&oldid=63184 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+69) 10/* References */  add DOI for the original MUSYS paper
< 1565161691 793817 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have found the original paper for this MUSYS language from 1973 which I had been searching for for some time, so I might try to add some more details to the wiki.
< 1565161692 657597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about the esowiki and Wikipedia user.
< 1565162058 340340 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shacaf: looks like a SE user too, since that username appears on the page I linked to as well
< 1565162359 801051 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Solomon Passy seems to be active and more well known in Bulgarian politics, ... and USB charging?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Passy
< 1565163876 862275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that was a worthy and successful initiative indeed. (But I didn't know who was behind it.)
< 1565163937 683853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Downside: mobile phones no longer come with chargers. Upside: you can buy mobile phone chargers, and nobody will ask you what mobile phone you have.
< 1565164006 528864 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither of those matches my experience?
< 1565164055 885476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well they messed it up because while chargers are USB based you still need to know the kind of plug... :P)
< 1565164129 311340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And tbh this is all theory to me. I don't have a smartphone.
< 1565164129 646378 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least there are USB type-C and Apple Lightning.
< 1565164141 998212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably still MicroUSB.
< 1565164192 787175 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case I do believe that the situation is far less messy than it was 10 years ago.
< 1565164208 463673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one charger that charges both my laptop computer and mobile phone.
< 1565164212 249400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very convenient.
< 1565164257 293651 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565164282 384857 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you want to charge them both at the same time? hmm
< 1565164292 585105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can plug the phone into the laptop for that
< 1565164324 220437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd need a second cable.
< 1565164501 604785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, sure, and the laptop USB charging/electricity distribution (hmm let's say motherboard) has to be up for it as well.
< 1565164525 919743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't really know enough to be more specific than "motherboard" which is bascially all of the computer :P)
> 1565164723 878008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dtuser1337 5*  10New user account
> 1565165193 798803 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65331&oldid=65316 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+326) 10;)
> 1565165433 517369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DDR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65332&oldid=64007 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+60) 10adding new category
> 1565165472 936443 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multi-Set Manipulator/String14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65333&oldid=65329 5* 03A 5* (-222) 10
> 1565165726 120942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65334 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+39) 10moved to my new user. (plz dont banish me because i cannot use this (my old) accounts.)
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> 1565166949 163375 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Stlisp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65335&oldid=42087 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10
< 1565168484 10498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I just heard the phrase "the philosophy of bullshit" and my immediate reaction was that this seems redundant...
< 1565169051 86224 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1565170424 671912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems unfair.
< 1565170810 546853 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :name one good philosohpy
< 1565171143 920983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :x
< 1565171354 551627 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565171420 930976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ommr0Te4A was the context.
< 1565171532 946503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The thing is, it's really hard to tell philosophy and philosophical bullshit apart. I often can't. Also the categorization will differ from person to person.
< 1565172655 218868 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At minimum you would seem to need to hold a philosophy in which a distinction can be made between the two, in order to distinguish between the two.
< 1565172692 312442 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annoyingly, you can't make someone else also hold such a philosophy.
< 1565172731 282047 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Additionally, some people just like to argue.
< 1565172827 235100 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I find that last statement offensive.
< 1565172858 515278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find most philosophers very grating.
< 1565172902 862288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean writings by famous philosophers, not specific humans.
< 1565172956 491942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to like philosophy books by Raymond Smullyan, such as _The Tao is Silent_
< 1565172960 624096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a philosophy book?
< 1565176291 460389 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1565177033 716459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65336&oldid=57643 5* 03B jonas 5* (+14) 10
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< 1565180386 888283 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2836328/ready-set-not/
< 1565180387 648303 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2836328/ready-set-not/: b_jonas
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< 1565185011 318358 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 JOIN :#esoteric
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> 1565187811 201125 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tacit programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65337 5* 03A 5* (+35) 10Redirect for synonyms
> 1565187845 920689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point-free programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65338 5* 03A 5* (+35) 10Redirect for synonyms
> 1565188153 660891 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65339&oldid=65336 5* 03A 5* (+183) 10Mention some tacit languages not mentioned here yet.
> 1565188285 60429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65340&oldid=65339 5* 03A 5* (-8) 10Whoops
> 1565189490 88981 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65341&oldid=40772 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10
> 1565189518 653155 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Advanced Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65342&oldid=54735 5* 03A 5* (+76) 10
> 1565189581 785471 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aeon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65343&oldid=39332 5* 03A 5* (+75) 10
> 1565189646 313166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Al Dente14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65344&oldid=62990 5* 03A 5* (+72) 10
> 1565189723 310640 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Al Dente14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65345&oldid=65344 5* 03A 5* (-31) 10Give up on categorizing
> 1565189758 263536 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Big Man Computer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65346&oldid=39039 5* 03A 5* (+64) 10
> 1565189850 991092 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chafa14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65347&oldid=36608 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10The zalgo creates a mess
> 1565189887 353610 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Got a match?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65348&oldid=63384 5* 03A 5* (+45) 10
> 1565189916 376003 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GreeeeeeeeenText14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65349&oldid=58839 5* 03A 5* (+69) 10
> 1565189967 330948 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Genius from Kiev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65350&oldid=61360 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10
> 1565190013 211108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65351&oldid=58854 5* 03A 5* (+76) 10
> 1565190095 933232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DukkTap14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65352&oldid=58864 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10
> 1565190130 143859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BOREDOM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65353&oldid=60546 5* 03A 5* (+69) 10
> 1565190187 354911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Caeos14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65354&oldid=60195 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10
> 1565190244 449568 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NEGATOR14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65355&oldid=59879 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10
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> 1565190360 706698 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HuffPuff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65358&oldid=59255 5* 03A 5* (+76) 10
> 1565190437 752609 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Quite14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65359&oldid=59209 5* 03A 5* (+79) 10
> 1565190470 506929 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ummm...14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65360&oldid=64878 5* 03A 5* (+79) 10
> 1565190505 875731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EZ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65361&oldid=65356 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10
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< 1565191240 103558 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi
< 1565191307 981424 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Vorpal 
< 1565191310 898264 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565191699 323619 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: re Lambda: The Gathering, in the concatenative thing I'm working on, I don't "apply from the left" or "apply from the right", but I do "compose before" and "compose after", so that's something I suppose
< 1565191771 408050 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, but like I said, the way LTG cheats is that you get mutable variable slots into which you can store or load functions
< 1565192885 314763 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"wool" vs "fleece". English is confusing.
< 1565193488 933662 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those... are fairly different things, right?
< 1565193543 889683 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they both mean the material used to make textile that originates from sheep or other ungulates.
< 1565193562 673241 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In different forms
< 1565193578 223879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can also have wool originating from certain breeds of rabbits)
< 1565193579 140213 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you be more specific? What different forms?
< 1565193621 852667 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1565193631 863779 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, maybe from any mammal. As opposed to most textiles, that come from cotton, linen, hemp, various parts of other plants, plastics, or a mixture of plastic with cotton.
< 1565193662 703990 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wool as a material is assembled from cords of wool, whereas fleece isn't visibly
< 1565193843 359461 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do you mean to say that wool is what you get not from spinning the mammal hairs into thick strands called a yarn or thread and then knitting them into a textile, whereas fleece is the same as felt, which is what you get from just pressing all the hairs together as a flat pane without order until they stick?
< 1565193861 563197 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something along those lines
< 1565193879 741144 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think fleece is the same thing as felt, but it's a lot closer to felt than to wool (the material)
< 1565193885 982093 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1565193905 345466 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm specifying wool the material because wool is also what I call the hair of sheep and certain other animals
< 1565194563 602474 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1565198059 198280 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@196.64.55.185 QUIT :Quit: yes it does
> 1565199503 68775 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Braincells14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65362 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+82) 10Created page with "'''Braincells''' is just another [[Brainfuck]] derivative by [[User:HereToAnnoy]]."
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< 1565200056 648883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523
< 1565200085 375549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas
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> 1565200464 869733 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Braincells14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65363&oldid=65362 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+1154) 10unfinished, brb
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> 1565204829 162502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65364&oldid=65341 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-63) 10Undo revision 65341 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) This is not a language.
> 1565205806 823448 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aeon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65365&oldid=65343 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-23) 10Fix typo in category and some formatting
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> 1565206336 509742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BOREDOM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65366&oldid=65353 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-23) 10One language category is probably enough here
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> 1565206506 742793 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GreeeeeeeeenText14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65367&oldid=65349 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-23) 101
< 1565208579 426563 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1565208774 699594 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565208909 947651 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, how would you build a computer out of the "Star Wars" cellular automaton?
< 1565208923 290123 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems perfect for computing. It has stationary elements and it also has spaceships that move at the speed of light.
< 1565208942 940251 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very easy to construct guns in Star Wars.
< 1565208945 130411 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't somebody built gates for it already?
< 1565208955 595429 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I would hope so?
< 1565209013 249911 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I haven't been able to find any information about that.
< 1565209047 495809 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I decided to try to start from scratch.
< 1565209113 324187 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=283
< 1565209125 52541 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=507
< 1565209159 249851 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But so far it ain't going too hot.
< 1565209176 30682 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've seen discussion about it elsewhere but that may have been a similar generations rule
< 1565209254 828386 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested in how to go from the gates to the computer
< 1565209268 816609 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simplest and most common spaceship in Star Wars is the "bullet." It's just a pair of young cells with a trail of old cells.
< 1565209269 555764 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh shoot, lemme check that out. Thanks!
< 1565209431 603287 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already know that. :D
< 1565209566 221044 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be cool to go from verilog to logic in CGOL/star wars... it'd be cool if yosys could be hacked to do it
< 1565209581 838361 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let's see. I already know that one bullet can destroy another bullet. If they hit each other at a right angle with the right timing, they'll both be destroyed.
< 1565209583 944810 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :That SR latch pattern also has a signal turner, as well as a duplicating signal turner.
< 1565209585 345011 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has guns, of course.
< 1565209625 951601 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still reading the 507 topic
< 1565209638 686931 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're also likely to need a way to delay a signal by an odd number of time steps.
< 1565209644 314057 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... that's it, that's all you need to build a computer.
< 1565209645 330117 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone made an AND gate
< 1565209681 485000 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Signal duplication, a destructive collision gate, and arbitrary routing gets you a computer.
< 1565209693 387803 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need to delay by an odd number of steps? why not just work with even periods?
< 1565209820 309637 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you need that or not.
< 1565209859 657713 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you might have a situation where, say, bullets can only interact usefully if they're of opposite phases.
< 1565209900 338586 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you need to be able to work entirely with even-phase bullets, or you need some way to transfer information between even-phase bullets and odd-phase bullets.
< 1565210096 535519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"say, bullets can only interact usefully if they're of opposite phases" => then you let a gun bullet interact with your signal, and either you get an opposite parity bullet, or you get one after you commute which way the two react
< 1565210192 951098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that could still fail if you can only swap the parity together with negating the signal
< 1565210213 89613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you can actually do easily in this cellular thingy
< 1565210286 658380 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know how those cellular automata work of which I wrote on the wiki
< 1565210310 348614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know the game of life rule because I wrote a fun golf program to compute it
< 1565210328 880030 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you find star wars? the rule table repository?
< 1565210357 189580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, that's reverse causation, I knew about game of life way before I started writing such esoteric programs
< 1565210361 325018 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a HighLife program that runs on this LED display I found at a hackerspace at MIT and reverse-engineered
< 1565210374 29876 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been running for 9 years now!
< 1565210398 815222 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sign contains an embedded DOS PC and a huge custom ISA card
< 1565210437 235980 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to keep things interesting, it will occasionally spawn a glider at a random location and orientation
< 1565210447 83241 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to create a good mix of high- and low-activity times
< 1565210463 181439 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the edges wrap around but reversed
< 1565210488 384595 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g (0,5) is adjacent to (w-1, h-6)
< 1565210501 4754 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this creates (approximately) the geometry of a projective plane
< 1565210525 387364 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the system doesn't lose entropy as fast as it would with empty-cell boundary conditions
< 1565210558 629031 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it only one edge that's flipped, or is it both?
< 1565210736 965369 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :both
< 1565210747 273381 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1565210787 566440 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, both. if it was one edge flipped and one wrapping w/o flip then it would be a Klein bottle
< 1565210790 747373 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would probably also work
< 1565210792 379627 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as would a torus
< 1565210796 402878 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to be fancy
< 1565210807 797945 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I'd been playing with projective plane in fractal video feedback loops around the same time
< 1565211238 548757 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565211724 796012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/3434/ specifically says torus, so I didn't have a choice in that, but it doesn't say that the direction of the torus has to be parallel to the cell grid, so I abuse that to make the program shorter
< 1565211791 975593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm proud of that code
< 1565211806 800363 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1565211811 843111 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the direction of the torus?
< 1565211922 787216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: my answer tells that explicitly
< 1565211949 236946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The game board is hard-coded to size 79x23. It is wrapped in a torus: if you leave the board on the bottom, you end up at the top; if you leave on the right side, you end up at the left side but shifted one row down."
< 1565211956 544909 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1565211973 477436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the easiest to implement
< 1565212015 177579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original version is a cylinder, wrapping around almost horizontally but zeroing above the top and below the bottom, variable size field
< 1565212021 822000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the golf version got fixed size because it's golf
< 1565212178 944485 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how TI-BASIC is competitive in code golf competitions like this
< 1565212224 139346 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it
< 1565212271 519546 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: How did *I* find Star Wars? I downloaded Mirek's Cellebration way back when.
< 1565212272 908181 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because all the primitives are tokens and there's a lot of built-in math operators
< 1565212296 352705 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are almost all two bytes each
< 1565212423 269340 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're allowed to treat it as the binary representation
< 1565212424 400452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see
< 1565216368 576813 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to measure entropy , or 'potential energy' in CA configurations? I just watched on of those Star Wars configurations (the one in the large bounding box) waiting for it to settle down. It did at around T=55000
< 1565216403 826093 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a perfect measure of entropy would be kolmogorov complexity, which is uncomputable
< 1565216410 86519 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure there are many heuristic measures that are useful
< 1565216422 634330 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it felt like you should be able to make some probabilistic statements based on cell density and the kinds of patterns, obviously depending on the particular ruleset
< 1565216454 757416 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example you could look for repeats in the history of each cell
< 1565216463 47484 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :count the number of cells that haven't repeated in the past n generations
< 1565216469 617625 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if you're doing hashlife, count whole regions
< 1565216606 862684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hashlife is tg
< 1565216638 50637 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some patterns seemed to be more likely 'absorb' energy, and other to 'release' complex patterns... if regions could be classified as one or the other, and the density of the whole thing would influence the likeyhood of one region affecting the other
< 1565216840 849314 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not aware of any off the top of my head, and I've trolled around conwaylife for a while
< 1565216846 230103 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :err s/trolled/lurked/
< 1565216875 167716 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm thinking about studying CA like gasses, making statements about aggregate behaviour using statistics 
< 1565217033 42559 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has been some study of simulating gases with CA (search for HPP latice gasses, I think golly has one in its included patterns)
< 1565217043 937503 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a lot of CA don't really act like gases at all
< 1565217097 897994 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah most gases don't spontaneously generate wild critters
< 1565217101 623555 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess hydrogen does
< 1565217108 504949 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have enough mass and time and non-homogeneity
< 1565217124 155786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1565217136 414250 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1565217148 864400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :livin' the hash life
< 1565217160 491823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't choose the hash life
< 1565217217 365270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA-420
< 1565217260 272746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 20-round version of SHA-4 should be called SHA-4/20
< 1565217262 884230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it happen
< 1565217295 914121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and int-e says he didn't choose to be not swedish, and zzo38 says the letters in their name don't mean anything, but all that negativity and denial sounds supicious to me
< 1565217314 149709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to convince people that your nick doesn't mean something, I think the best way is to come up with an explanation of what it does mean
< 1565217324 933478 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but putting a match to hydrogen vs. putting a match to argon ... like you can tell some CA rules will be very inert..
< 1565217345 11992 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually surprisingly difficult to tell just by the rule string
< 1565217356 620562 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 0
< 1565217373 988908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Hmm? I never claimed my nick doesn't mean anything.
< 1565217381 366514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obviously the rot13 of "fun puns".
< 1565217391 24188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, it's zzo who claimed their nick doesn't mean anything
< 1565217404 539080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, zzo38 is also the rot13 of "fun puns".
< 1565217404 809351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just claim you didn't choose it to mean a hash thingy 
< 1565217429 343448 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I was only joking about the algorithm called "hashlife".
< 1565217464 914509 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said anything about my nick.
< 1565217473 75134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what... you and zzo38 are _both_ the rot13 of funpuns?
< 1565217512 996904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, some of the hackeso commands are a bit rigged, so I could imagine if the rot13 command claimed that zzo38 was the rot13 of funpuns
< 1565217515 999617 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but _both_?
< 1565217523 148686 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo shachaf | tr a-z n-za-m
< 1565217524 316658 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :funpuns
< 1565217533 892256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` rot13 <<<'fun puns'
< 1565217534 726392 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sha chaf
< 1565217535 678306 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo zzo38 | tr a-z n-za-m
< 1565217536 453552 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmb38
< 1565217548 345815 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :``cat $(which ```)
< 1565217548 954792 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
< 1565217555 163192 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat $(which ```)
< 1565217555 829033 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
< 1565217559 16051 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat $(which '```')
< 1565217567 729453 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gr
< 1565217577 388501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/```
< 1565217578 17788 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: 'bin/```': No such file or directory
< 1565217580 802090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/``
< 1565217581 420677 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
< 1565217589 562482 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1565217648 456659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first how many primes did you say? 27?
< 1565217663 281757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :first 27 primes, ok
< 1565217663 913807 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 42069
< 1565217680 318961 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :42069: 3 37 379
< 1565217683 404983 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 42069247365
< 1565217684 56933 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :42069247365: 3 5 2804616491
< 1565217699 162631 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: I haven't checked, but I imagine at the extremes there will be 'bad' CA rules that cannot exhibit interesting behaviour, like the trivial "all cells go to 0", and it's in some kind of balanced range where interesting interactions can take over.
< 1565217753 694033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is prop 13 a 'bad' CA rule
< 1565217790 833250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "all cells go to 0" would be an even worse rule.
< 1565217800 377975 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Studying trivially rubbish CA's is less interesting than what got me thinking about entropy in Star Wars :)
< 1565217810 43102 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, there's been classifications of rules into categories like "dying", "exploding", "expanding" etc, and there's ways to guess what certain rule strings can do
< 1565217839 458080 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a range where it's pretty unpredictable what adding one death/birth rule will do
< 1565217956 800989 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://mathematrec.wordpress.com/2016/09/08/changing-the-rules-part-3/
< 1565219378 229462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ p:11111128263413556049728126571976941130032759962428
< 1565219378 924828 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |limit error
< 1565219378 973415 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |       p:1.11111e49
< 1565219381 197745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ p:11111128263413556049728126571976941130032759962428x
< 1565219381 891575 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |limit error
< 1565219381 935895 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |       p:11111128263413556049728126571976941130032759962428
< 1565219386 997374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111128263413556049728126571976941130032759962428x
< 1565219387 692460 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 17 17 17 17 23 23 23 23 23
< 1565219409 113406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ this is a simple first guess, I'm running a longer search
< 1565219488 870224 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of numbers
< 1565219535 762453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111112020943532694674878126746501120000000000000
< 1565219536 482476 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 171193786852609
< 1565219542 818007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1565219543 746181 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111112020943532694674878126746501120000000000000x
< 1565219544 449168 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11
< 1565219547 626012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :better
< 1565219803 347719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111900997990188240163285841258014887116800000x
< 1565219804 56564 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 19 19 23
< 1565220143 633158 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565220487 715960 :doesthiswork!~doesthisw@98.125.180.92 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565220796 346050 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565220963 359591 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565221946 53732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, this is silly, there's a way to make this search much more efficient
< 1565221964 518621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111239428571047989046031440000000000000000000x NB. it printed this in the meantime
< 1565221965 215037 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 11 11 11 11 13 13 19
< 1565222275 349077 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565222866 821680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ `:11111111112779092073579732177590915891200000000000x
< 1565222867 701542 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: `:11111111112779092073579732177590915891200000000000x
< 1565222872 820904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111112779092073579732177590915891200000000000x NB. int-e
< 1565222873 510791 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 17 17 19 23 23 23
< 1565223015 994183 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565223121 611175 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565223204 968278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ that's the best if you use primes no greater than 23
< 1565223214 159808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm running a longer search now
< 1565223240 273570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as soon as I fix the bugs in my program
< 1565223297 276061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x
< 1565223297 970438 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 29
< 1565223404 56706 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: may I ask how good a number you've got, that is, (the the best number you have minus (2**50-1)/9) rounded to two significant digits?
< 1565223455 813210 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what's the competition?
< 1565223503 746248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lY
< 1565223639 141994 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit I missed a discussion of TI-8x grayscale
< 1565223680 156253 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, sorry
< 1565223752 464531 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the display (or at least the controller) doesn't suport any more than black and white, you have to flicker the pixels fast enough that you trick the eye into seeing gray
< 1565223820 361995 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I too wrote a mandelbrot renderer in BASIC and it took a similarly long amount of time to render
< 1565223838 742308 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could flash like 8 pictures in BASIC to get flickerless grayscale...
< 1565223861 908720 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, relatively speaking)
< 1565223933 25784 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sdcc for the z80 isn't super good
< 1565223968 295038 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only compiled language which is half-decent forTI-z80  is AXE
< 1565224169 881803 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on, stupid program, find a better solution
< 1565224270 737985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000 - (9<.@%~_1+10x^50)
< 1565224271 391629 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.58473e38
< 1565224274 918 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: it wasn't flickerless
< 1565224363 209009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j_2": 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x - (9<.@%~_1+10x^50)
< 1565224363 908364 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.58e38
< 1565224403 571086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I think I'll leave this running for a while
< 1565224559 430395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111111161923559652900718659162521362304687500x
< 1565224560 126914 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 13 13 13 17 17 17 17 17 17 23 31 59
< 1565224581 378922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j_2": 11111111111161923559652900718659162521362304687500x - (9<.@%~_1+10x^50)
< 1565224582 67174 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 5.08e37
< 1565224908 448686 :douglas_!~douglas@190.221.91.55 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565224973 662747 :douglas_!~douglas@190.221.91.55 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565228266 606162 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565229266 922432 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fppadfuhcidlzwug QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565229451 329654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q:11111111111111167179461296463398102111816406250000x
< 1565229452 84622 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 17 19 19 23 23 23 23 23 23 23 23 53 61 73
< 1565229455 947641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565229475 577774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j2": 11111111111111167179461296463398102111816406250000x - (9<.@%~_1+10x^50) NB. int-e
< 1565229476 273819 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 56068350185352286991000705295138889.00
< 1565229486 840639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j_2": 11111111111111167179461296463398102111816406250000x - (9<.@%~_1+10x^50) 
< 1565229487 543560 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 5.61e34
< 1565231831 682000 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565232402 526438 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565232582 370827 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565233050 616033 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565233108 207077 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565234189 250613 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of optimization algorithm are you using b_jonas?
> 1565234508 596111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65368&oldid=65364 5* 03A 5* (+18) 10At least this is created in 2006.
> 1565239079 71256 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65369&oldid=65368 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-18) 10Undo revision 65368 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) Yes, but [[Category:Years]] "All languages should belong to exactly one of these categories, and other articles should not."
< 1565244843 92691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's pretty good
< 1565244859 944360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 11111111111111111400018389711831195436675393750000 is the best I've got
< 1565244898 370421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are these numbers?
< 1565244920 122204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :103-smooth overapproximations of 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
< 1565245033 485615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that?
< 1565245047 76929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A four-letter word.
< 1565245049 267253 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for clues in the text and not seeing them.
< 1565245069 887560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google "B-smooth"
< 1565245070 823984 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_number
< 1565245080 492092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1565245099 881648 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you use the word "smooth" to talk about natural numbers? Come on.
< 1565245110 338725 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a smooth operator
< 1565245133 948136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because we also use the word "round" for natural numbers
< 1565245163 449360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i kmc^op
< 1565245165 27159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and round numbers tend to be smooth
< 1565245171 676688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you gotta tell me if you're a c^op
< 1565245191 866223 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it opposite day
< 1565245197 777668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^5*3^2*5^3*7
< 1565245199 948892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no hth
< 1565245200 744956 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 252000
< 1565245242 592049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^15*3^10*7^7 -- smooth, not round
< 1565245247 515836 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1593487871410176
< 1565245331 237761 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not round in base 10 because it doesn't have any 5s
< 1565245333 796753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, actually 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875 is the best I have.
< 1565245372 860928 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :smooth buddy
< 1565246612 999407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether an ILP solver would be good at this kind of thing.
< 1565246646 54942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess probably not very?
< 1565247045 58293 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked into approximate subset sum solvers but they mostly suck
< 1565247052 754522 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all suck
< 1565248139 537203 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Girl Genius theory: the entire thing's going to be a shaggy dog story, with Agatha, Gil, and Tarvek being unable to claim their titles due to having died in Castle Heterodyne during the Si Vales Valeo procedure
< 1565248179 498026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch and bound is tg
< 1565248187 909691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :can sat solvers use a trick like that somehow
< 1565248548 970766 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-139-94-170.range86-139.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565248950 971258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Uh, they are?
< 1565248980 448309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only have two values. You cut off branches that are definitely false.
< 1565249005 151357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unit propagation is a combined branch & bound.
< 1565249019 552093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all so degenerated though that the concept hardly fits.
< 1565249207 240159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess...
< 1565249219 299915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do SMT solvers use it more directly?
< 1565249228 620537 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe when used for optimization rather than satisfiability.
< 1565249241 679973 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's pretty far from SAT territory.
< 1565249396 291924 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether the LIA solvers prefer gomory cuts or branch&bound.
< 1565249420 623679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LIA = linear integer arithmetic)
< 1565249482 159516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe lookahead SAT solvers are a bit closer to the kind of thing I was thinking of.
< 1565249500 525873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really a bound, though.
< 1565249650 692795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j_2": (9<.@%~_1+10x^50) -~ 11111111111111111400018389711831195436675393750000
< 1565249651 385790 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.30e33
< 1565249653 194270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiui lookahead is just another heuristic for selecting promising decisions.
< 1565249662 555633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1565249674 477263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0j_2": (9<.@%~_1+10x^50) -~ 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875x
< 1565249675 175723 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.05e32
< 1565249677 571907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better
< 1565249683 76927 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ q: 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875x
< 1565249683 772332 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 17 19 31 37 37 37 37 43 47 47 47 67 67 97 97 103
< 1565249698 766142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's a different thing.
< 1565249719 614234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to run this search with different parameters on a faster machine
< 1565249867 455169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lY
< 1565249935 357226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1565250057 754641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: http://paste.debian.net/1094920/ has some more results and runtime on a i7-6850K (3.6GHz, single-threaded, written in Haskell, exact arbitrary precision integer arithmetic)
< 1565250126 100040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't want to look at spoilers yet
< 1565250135 927581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's only numbers and runtimes
< 1565250195 572013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And spoils the fact that I have tried two different approaches... I don't really think that's a spoiler :) )
< 1565250668 344260 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-59.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565251962 474010 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565252047 275940 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565252064 516408 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565252795 16552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "rep ret" necessary only when the ret is on an even address?
< 1565252803 132597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also is it necessary at all nowadays or only for old AMD CPUs?
< 1565252812 944502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I mean odd. Whichever one I mean.
< 1565252951 849842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Continuing in the following generation of AMD CPUs, Bulldozer, we see that any advice regarding ret has disappeared from the optimization guide."
< 1565252963 770498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to http://repzret.org/p/repzret/
< 1565252990 465038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not.
< 1565252995 729824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously the AMD manuals are the authorative source.
< 1565253075 881964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I generally only look at the Intel manuals. I guess I should read the AMD ones too.
< 1565253083 87153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I look at the optimization guide hardly ever.)
< 1565253105 542720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :when are people going to scrap x86 twh hand
< 1565253120 202875 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565253140 182006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe when Intel goes out of business.
< 1565253219 966185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine Intel could do pretty well at other architectures if it came to it?
< 1565253259 456124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would they switch away from x86
< 1565253300 725796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "the world switching away from x86" is more likely than "Intel going out of business"
< 1565253313 324380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though maybe not. Companies can be ephemeral.
< 1565253323 314853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll believe it when it happens.
< 1565253344 404861 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world's most popular operating system is already almost exclusively ARM.
< 1565253485 516213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\any architecture with LLVM support is viable these days.
< 1565253507 699065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the popularity of ARM is still no reason for Intel to switch away from x86.
< 1565253511 746268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh.
< 1565253519 174538 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write a compiler should I target LLVM?
< 1565253532 840754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably
< 1565253591 20100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there were a few things where I wasn't sure LLVM could really do the things I want.
< 1565253594 580781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe it's feasible.
< 1565253610 63153 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 is still huge for gaming
< 1565253714 194531 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any standards like calling conventions or whatever for software that wants to be sure to avoid stack overflow?
< 1565253724 669060 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, a pointer to the end of the stack that it can check.
< 1565253811 674122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :guard pages?
< 1565253881 124275 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably programs would like to fail better than a SEGV.
< 1565253910 934855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh you're so hard to please.
< 1565253936 446105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example to guarantee success before starting a computation rather than crashing in the middle.
< 1565253942 202152 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems pretty basic.
< 1565253958 217709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursion is the only case where you might need a dynamic check.
< 1565254139 778952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, are there any clues for why the REX bits are called W R X B?
< 1565254139 995029 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You want to be able to call code from external libraries and you want to be sure to avoid stack overflow?
< 1565254148 360268 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565254153 601917 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ping
< 1565254154 491073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong
< 1565254168 861555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ideally I'd like this to work across library boundaries, yes.
< 1565254287 789493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You do seem to be asking a lot
< 1565254411 491996 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know about the ret instructions specifically, but you should look them up in the optimization manuals for your target cpu at "https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sdm" and AMD, and in Agner's optimization manuals at "http://www.agner.org/optimize/" if you care
< 1565254457 332371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess my wisdom entry is correct tonight.
< 1565254460 881441 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, so I have this computation, and in the middle it loads a shared object and calls the symbol `foo` in it.  You want to guarantee this will not overflow the stack.  You want this guarantee *before starting it*.
< 1565254481 172515 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all I mean by asking a lot
< 1565254489 594628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see.
< 1565254507 163791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If all your functions are non-recursive and non-indirect, this can just be in the type of foo.
< 1565254527 217325 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's a problem with shared libraries but shared libraries aren't so great in the first place.
< 1565254539 243709 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have control over foo and access to information about it in the compiler, just track the stack size in the compiler, you don't need dynamic checks
< 1565254552 507315 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have control over foo, all bets are off
< 1565254561 332201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need something like dynamic checks if you want to support recursion.
< 1565254598 66558 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK so you have a general recursive function and you want a guarantee *before calling it* that it will terminate
< 1565254598 886695 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, you at least need a dynamic check at program startup or something.
< 1565254609 138881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I want it to be able to fail gracefully.
< 1565254624 185722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example maybe I only want to support bounded recursion where it can decide on the bound up-front.
< 1565254679 981112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that I hadn't thought carefully about dynamic libraries, they're kind of tricky because they're all indirect jumps.
< 1565254712 395889 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then your "calling convention" is to keep track of the recursion count and "fail gracefully" (however you define that) if the call would mean the count is exceeded
< 1565254713 289816 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have a standard calling convention where dynamic calls are guaranteed 8kB or whatever of stack space, and if they want more than that they can do a dynamic check.
< 1565254732 649470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. There are a lot of things that are more graceful than SEGV.
< 1565254763 120671 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that would make it tricky to have dynamic calls which make dynamic calls
< 1565254764 529110 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why the REX bits are called W R X B" => R for "register" because it extends the field that usually specifies a register operand (though sometimes chooses between instrs), X for "index" because it extends the field that gives the (scaled) index register for memory operands, B for "base" because it may extends the field that gives the base register 
< 1565254765 28543 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though may also extend the other register operand for reg-reg instructions), and W for "word" because it can determine word size between 32 and 64 bits
< 1565254785 671925 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565254800 25888 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course sometimes some of those mnemonics are meaningless, because in some instructions some of the bits are ignored or must be zero
< 1565254803 879677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Hmm, maybe. How frequent is that?
< 1565254813 872648 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know
< 1565254815 87008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Aha. Thanks.
< 1565254828 406704 :relrod!~relrod@origin.elrod.me JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565254830 402669 :relrod!~relrod@origin.elrod.me QUIT :Changing host
< 1565254830 428155 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565254834 455129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: helrod
< 1565254888 2854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think dynamic linking is mostly a bad idea for many reasons, but this one can go on the list.
< 1565254907 651008 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think dynamic linking is mostly a good idea
< 1565254964 215565 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine having to reinstall every fricking executable on my debian whenever some bug is fixed in one of the frequently used libraries that is currently a shared library
< 1565254992 118025 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may still want to link some things statically of course
< 1565255013 334573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if the bug fix requires an API change?
< 1565255082 663226 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite rare, in my experience
< 1565255181 107594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like you're describing an infrequent case with a relatively small benefit, though I don't know.
< 1565255188 940613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You really have to convince people... C/C++ users foremost... that failing more gracefully than producing a segmentation fault is actually desirable and useful. For that, you have to figure out what that more graceful way would be, especially in the context of C (C++ has exceptions, arguably that makes it easier to do something useful.)
< 1565255192 649352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This only really matters for security bugs probably.
< 1565255215 96704 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Returning an error?
< 1565255228 45365 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :returning an error from where?
< 1565255238 553369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The call that ran out of stack space.
< 1565255245 989892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm invoking a  void foo()
< 1565255255 282174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If foo can fail its return type shouldn't be void.
< 1565255279 571369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you'll convince anybody that way.
< 1565255280 835138 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you "fail gracefully" remember to clean up all the resources you allocated... and hope the cleanup code doesn't also need to "fail gracefully"
< 1565255296 907843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sort of thing seems like a basic requirement for reliable software?
< 1565255308 229490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody's going to go over millions of lines of code base with void functions and change them.
< 1565255316 999141 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I only mean for new programs.
< 1565255321 431508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(should write billions)
< 1565255332 992450 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it really depends on what software it is
< 1565255336 918826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Existing software can keep using guard pages if you want, I just want my programs to be reliable.
< 1565255352 481056 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most cases, in programs I write, most errors don't have to be handled gracefully, I don't have to clean up anything, just print an error message and exit
< 1565255370 286948 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I find the very few actual errors that will happen often, and handle those
< 1565255370 833566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well for your own programming language you can define your own ABI.
< 1565255383 802716 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is because I mostly write programs for research, not for production
< 1565255385 445686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean, sure, these are problems, but they're problems you already have to solve to write reliable and resilient software.
< 1565255395 917715 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I will! I'm just wondering whether this exists anywhere.
< 1565255400 519094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Did you know that LLVM knows about GHC's calling convention?)
< 1565255400 844069 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so only I run them, and I will edit and rerun them when they hit a case that I don't handle
< 1565255413 880332 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would take four times as long if I tried to handle every possible error gracefully
< 1565255423 661626 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Erlang promotes writing reliable and resilient software by *expecting* that processes will sometimes crash
< 1565255438 802884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Here's an example of a bug that came from not having clearly defined stack bounds: https://marcan.st/2017/12/debugging-an-evil-go-runtime-bug/
< 1565255447 501341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't up to a short while ago. I have not checked the details.)
< 1565255451 810851 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of those errors are either detecting internal logic bugs in my program, or warning me that the input has something that I thought it didn't have and so I don't have code to read it properly
< 1565255459 678902 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems far simpler that trying to guess all the ways they might crash and all the cases you need to would need to handle to make them "fail gracefully"
< 1565255460 713998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But it doesn't expect individual function calls to crash.
< 1565255480 386290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly the thing you're talking about is important for building a large resilient system.
< 1565255494 537515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not going to be a fractal system where you expect every instruction to potentially fail.
< 1565255494 665004 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: exactly, which is why I don't have to do cleanup for the errors in particularly, because I expect they can fail in ways that I don't expect so whatever that causes I have to be able to clean up too
< 1565255497 983279 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Individual function calls can raise an exception, which, if unhandled, causes the process to crash
< 1565255512 532819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions are almost certainly a bad idea for reliable software.
< 1565255524 402470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And probably for other software?)
< 1565255536 230458 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I store the data on the file system in such a way that I can recover from the state I can get from a crashed process or power failure
< 1565255558 662845 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: only _handling_ an exception is usually a bad idea
< 1565255558 807667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: exceptions solve the API problem presented by functions that cannot return an error condition.
< 1565255563 100307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I did know that they had something though not the exact details. I was under the impression it was some small subset of the GHC calling convention.
< 1565255570 63413 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :raising an "exception" that's actually a fatal error that you can't catch is not a bad idea
< 1565255574 165486 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just strange terminology
< 1565255598 703110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: They don't, because if you want your software to be reliable you need to be able to reason about all the ways control flow could go.
< 1565255617 332792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "void foo();" only makes the control flow harder to see.
< 1565255626 380808 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I really don't know details. I was surprised to find that LLVM knows anything about GHC at all.
< 1565255638 528823 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I can always walk into the server room and turn the computer off. How do you reason about that "flow control"?
< 1565255646 589729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does make sense. But I didn't expect it.)
< 1565255655 435184 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe more to the point, you need a definition of "reliable".
< 1565255690 436454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Arguably the proper way to handle stack overflows is to enlarge the stack.
< 1565255727 877937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Not forever!
< 1565255741 403334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the proper way to handle OOM is to pause the program until an engineer adds more memory to the computer.
< 1565255742 742259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you could say it's true forever, but now you need to handle out-of-memory errors on every function call.
< 1565255755 280155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if your computer is in space or something?
< 1565255811 850856 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've heard of aerospace engineering teams being forbidden to use recursive code.
< 1565255814 754739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose for embedded systems you basically disallow recursion.
< 1565255835 714965 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you can't recurse, you don't even need a stack, really
< 1565255862 441338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least, you can statically determine how much of it you'll need.
< 1565255886 573766 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hey :P   /late
< 1565255893 423925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how do you fail gracefully in that context?
< 1565255901 830228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which context?
< 1565255906 570592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: space crafts
< 1565255914 889246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you probably disallow recursion.
< 1565255961 988841 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you have non-mission-critical stuff which you can afford to process on a best effort basis.
< 1565256057 58229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to me like it's easy to turn a system that's reliable and predictable into one that isn't (e.g. by adding useful features), but it's impossible to go the other way.
< 1565256110 823957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly think it's reasonable for a program to want to allocate all its memory up front so it can avoid malloc errors.
< 1565256122 105377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that that's realistic on Linux.)
< 1565256174 203855 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was serious when I said you should define "reliable".
< 1565256197 56969 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much easier to hit an explicitly identified target.
< 1565256237 656826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true.
< 1565256253 480842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a comprehensive definition or anything. I guess there are things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C
< 1565256288 658407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems easy enough to point out a particular way that software could fail and say that eliminating it would make it more reliable.
< 1565256314 162686 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Are you making up a new language for this, or an existing one, or slightly modifying an existing one?
< 1565256359 989980 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say making up a new language.
< 1565256365 669893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also wondering about existing systems?
< 1565256749 873430 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're making up a new language then you have a lot more freedom to design it to try to solve some of the problems at the language level.
< 1565256774 910523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. Like what?
< 1565256820 522546 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking: End of stack pointer is stored somewhere and available for checking for dynamic cases.
< 1565256832 651560 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To go back to what you said about bounded recursion, you could make the language only allow bounded recursion, instead of checking if a function exceeds some recursion bound at runtime
< 1565256846 880080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Function types are annotated with maximum stack usage, so if the call graph is acyclic everything can be solved statically.
< 1565256875 563056 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only allowing bounded recursion seems like a pretty strong constraint.
< 1565256912 911435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, especially if it has to be statically bounded (rather than e.g. bounded by an argument).
< 1565256922 555922 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you want to allow unbounded recursion but you also want it to be reliable
< 1565256953 501708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :He wants a Turing Machine... well okay... a RAM machine.
< 1565256999 615121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah pronouns.
< 1565257002 724812 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shachaf
< 1565257003 868282 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
< 1565257015 991097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen/He. Okay, mystery solved.
< 1565257053 590361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to allow programmers to do what they want, and make it easy to do the reasonable thing.
< 1565257107 932553 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think dynamic checks are pretty reasonable. Say you have a recursive function to search a tree or something, and you run out of stack space. You return an error. That seems fine to me?
< 1565257132 380744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dowg | grep Queen
< 1565257135 52835 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11837:2019-06-17  `` perl -pi -e\'s/Bond\\K/, Queen Elizabeth the first/\' wisdom/p*aneb* \ 9872:2016-12-05  slwd shachaf//s/^/Queen / \ 7390:2016-04-14  le/rn victoria/Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
< 1565257183 239113 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?
< 1565257189 352583 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that really me?
< 1565257201 793911 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I do remember that
< 1565257219 597171 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just strange that I used \K
< 1565257234 502229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the things I'm saying are kind of exploratory, but this is my general attitude. I don't want to make it impossible to avoid these things, I just want the mechanism to be available.
< 1565257271 252865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl -pi -e presumably makes perl generate a position-independent executable
< 1565257311 584181 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: presumably, since this is x86_64 so executablesa re position-independent by default
< 1565257447 649446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perl doesn't normally generate an executable in the first place.
< 1565257475 849056 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then it's doubly redundant
< 1565257507 760510 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why I'm a queen but I guess I'll take it.
< 1565257540 780797 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask boil̈y
< 1565257572 614051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo wisdom/p*aneb*
< 1565257574 57039 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/people who taneb is not
< 1565257588 56456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: seems you have fungot to thank for that one
< 1565257589 908057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? people who taneb is not
< 1565257590 951325 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
< 1565257614 540343 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://esolangs.org/logs/2016-12-05.html#lRl
< 1565257616 554594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Which rabbi are you not?
< 1565257655 304512 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the one from Fiddler on the Roof
< 1565257670 385945 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't you be in bed right now
< 1565257688 878075 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never saw that.
< 1565257701 962927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a few days ago I sang some of the songs from it, in Bodega Bay.
< 1565257702 917139 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither have I, but I was once in a production of it
< 1565257706 595748 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote elizabeth
< 1565257707 220415 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :992)  I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
< 1565257710 21605 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played the rabbi
< 1565257735 3393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` wc -l quotes
< 1565257735 722637 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1333 quotes
< 1565257737 678119 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I can picture exactly where I was when I pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first
< 1565257741 580987 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 1333
< 1565257742 519943 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1333)  `unidecode ⧸🙼   ​[U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS]   it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
< 1565257778 156873 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does `quote special case numbers? or does it just find all the quotes that mention the number
< 1565257783 258841 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno
< 1565257788 587043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 1
< 1565257789 222934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1)  EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
< 1565257802 982591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like the former.
< 1565257815 941790 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :``which quote
< 1565257819 968302 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `which: not found
< 1565257824 557105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cbt quote
< 1565257826 5445 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \     if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \         sed "$1q;d" \     else \         grep -P -i -- "$1" \     fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi
< 1565257870 66304 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's shuf's normal random-source?
< 1565257872 913038 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that looks like it's special casing numbers
< 1565257899 13817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` allquotes | strace -fo tmp/OUT shuf -n 1
< 1565257899 935524 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :326)  Hmm. I guess it's nearby GRBs that would be problematic?   Sgeo, if by 'problematic' you mean 'what's that in the AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH'.
< 1565257901 787217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/OUT
< 1565257902 555088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/OUT
< 1565257918 105378 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like urandom.
< 1565257934 534130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 dobg quote
< 1565257938 67119 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:9771:2016-11-24  sled bin/quote//s,shuf,shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom, \ 978:2012-12-09  revert \ 977:2012-12-09  cp bin/quote bin/realquote; echo -n $'#!/bin/sh\nsleep 1\nrealquote "$@"\n' > bin/quote \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
< 1565257951 396285 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oer
< 1565257965 485325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah. perhaps there was an older version of `shuf` that used /dev/random instead?
< 1565257992 631775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I heard there are questions that cross your eyes when posed. Is that true?
< 1565258071 277022 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 2011
< 1565258071 915936 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1565258084 640276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at the logs from that time, oerjan was spreading false rumors about /dev/urandom.
< 1565258092 270024 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe so. "Can you cross your eyes?" might make me cross my eyes when posed
< 1565258107 657222 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 124
< 1565258108 359144 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :124)  I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
< 1565258116 670235 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it special-cases numbers
< 1565258118 930409 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 124 
< 1565258119 539505 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :64) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
< 1565258167 627793 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`q 124
< 1565258169 827264 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :124)  I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
< 1565258170 289467 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`' 124
< 1565258172 400215 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :124)  I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
< 1565258173 157879 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`" 124
< 1565258174 501633 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :141)  comex: what?   *vorpal   comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why \ 237)  okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
< 1565258194 83307 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quotes 124
< 1565258194 791919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :124)  I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
< 1565258265 419517 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565258321 411980 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess dynamic libraries calling other dynamic libraries is actually reasonably common.
< 1565258355 291745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the whole system was built with this thing in mind, you could maybe do something fancy during relocation.
< 1565258360 879785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's almost certainly a bad idea.
< 1565258375 462024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead you should just ban dynamic libraries.
< 1565258434 184263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://slbkbs.org/tmp/out.a tmp/out.a
< 1565258439 66888 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http:/slbkbs.org/tmp/out.a: No such file or directory
< 1565258445 693485 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch tmp/out.a http://slbkbs.org/tmp/out.a
< 1565258447 792843 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-08 10:00:46 URL:http://slbkbs.org/tmp/out.a [923/923] -> "tmp/out.a" [1]
< 1565258454 253203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tmp/out.a
< 1565258455 140891 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/tmp/out.a: Permission denied \ /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/tmp/out.a: cannot execute: Permission denied
< 1565258460 441664 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` chmod +x tmp/out.a
< 1565258462 536615 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1565258464 546186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tmp/out.a
< 1565258465 95080 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally
< 1565258468 144024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally
< 1565258487 811266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that program is so good
< 1565258492 318353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file tmp/out.a
< 1565258493 86601 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmp/out.a: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, not stripped
< 1565258547 659354 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the system does do a lot of fancy things during relocation already. resolves strong symbols overriding weak symbols, has indirect function symbols that are resolved everywhere the first time they're called, etc
< 1565258587 994246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to generate a program that uses dynamic libraries, because that's the only way you can make software nowadays apparently.
< 1565258597 57685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I just want it to do the minimum possible.
< 1565258614 646694 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you know you can mix and match stuff, link some libraries statically and some dynamically
< 1565258628 354736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But some things you have to link dynamically.
< 1565258634 9911 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1565258676 912332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Linux I think it's pretty much only OpenGL and Xlib, and their dependencies such as libc.
< 1565258720 555329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Windows system calls are only available via dynamic linking.
< 1565259292 635392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, one reason I care about this stack usage thing is that it's relevant for implementing efficient coroutines.
< 1565259521 695986 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you probably already know this, but ais523 is the person to ask about this
< 1565259543 918034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense.
< 1565259567 650828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the part where ais523 isn't here right now.
< 1565259876 8764 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a desktop context, if a program starts using excessive amounts of stack space, what I'd like to see is the OS staying responsive, so that I can find the process and kill it.
< 1565259913 234654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's a good OS feature.
< 1565259922 532491 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty ridiculous how broken things are.
< 1565259923 409751 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program shouldn't be responsible for deciding what "excessive amounts" are, so it's an OS-domain thing.
< 1565260047 636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can set a soft ulimit, in which case the program gets a signal
< 1565260069 894759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a point about memory consumption in general (of which "the stack" should only be a tiny fraction).
< 1565260085 846192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course stacks are just regular memory.
< 1565260094 831425 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there's a specific setrlimit for stack space
< 1565260157 82022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but you can put your stack pointer wherever you want.
< 1565260207 87262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The limit only applies to the "process stack" and not thread stacks anyway, I think.
< 1565260714 525930 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565260805 652787 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-139-94-170.range86-139.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: http://corewar.co.uk
< 1565260947 571677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iota_and_Jot&diff=909854762&oldid=909568636 -- I didn't know that "comprised of" was so difficult :-/
< 1565261200 435629 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it means to compose sequences, so that seems less clear to me.
< 1565261363 500243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Giraffedata/comprised_of <-- that user is on a vendetta against this usage.
< 1565261406 725832 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using that word correctly always sounds wrong to me, so I just avoid it entirely
< 1565261428 831816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the new phrasing isn't accurate either.
< 1565261432 109455 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"consists" seems better.
< 1565261472 447842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that "comprise" is more often used in the reverse sense.
< 1565261557 15690 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rephrases to "consisting of"
< 1565261565 371249 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: frankly I don't know how it works, but my guess is that it applies to the total of all stacks
< 1565261576 560218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems not.
< 1565261581 115277 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel knows which mappings are stacks because they're set to auto-grow downwards
< 1565261587 705849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would certainly be unexpected to me.
< 1565261601 441388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean for stacks to auto-grow downward?
< 1565261615 920872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to memory which is mapped and gets faulted in on demand.
< 1565261621 715481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean stack memory gets mapped on demand?
< 1565261634 562068 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that if you write in a part near the bottom of the stack, its size is extended
< 1565261638 828873 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I might be completely wrong here
< 1565261655 954268 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that applies only to x86_32, where the address space is sparse
< 1565261663 389344 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sparse/tight/
< 1565261670 722982 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see
< 1565261688 607149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's tight that might mean people map memory near the stack, in which case you're saying the auto-growing stops?
< 1565261700 842053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My impression was that a fixed amount like 8MB was mapped at startup and that's that.
< 1565261751 862881 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but the mappings are placed in the address space a semi-smart way so that won't happen often
< 1565261830 647706 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there's a MMAP_GROWSDOWN flag of mmap for autoextending, but it's possible that it's not actually used for stacks
< 1565261839 585197 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/mmap.2.html
< 1565261871 80509 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Touching an address in the "guard" page below the mapping will cause the mapping to grow by a page.  This growth can be repeated until the mapping grows to within a page of the high end of the next lower mapping, at which point touching the "guard" page will result in a SIGSEGV signal."
< 1565261873 86795 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says
< 1565261888 436189 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's hard to imagine what that would be used for *besides* stacks
< 1565261902 370430 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the manpage explicitly says that it's for stacks
< 1565261916 193933 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's possible that it's not used at all these days, 
< 1565261925 146333 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or only on certain old architectures
< 1565261932 548821 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or old types of executables or somethin
< 1565261950 656423 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but here's the problem:
< 1565261963 803213 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep stack /proc/$$/maps
< 1565261964 476680 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :7fbfb9a000-7fbfbbb000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0                              [stack]
< 1565261976 265354 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flags field is 0, so it doesn't actually grow down
< 1565262013 777318 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have a typical libc-based x86_32 executable somewhere on hackeso so we can test how that behaves?
< 1565262100 119750 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm probably wrong about this
< 1565262206 434508 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"After some tests on an x84_64 Debian machine, I've found that the stack grows without any system call (according to strace)."
< 1565262218 409681 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/145557/how-does-stack-allocation-work-in-linux
< 1565262270 493568 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but does it grow the mapping, or does it just fault in MAP_NORESERVE pages?
< 1565262309 24982 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e print(0x7fbfb9a000-0x7fbfbbb000)
< 1565262309 643307 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `perl -e print(0x7fbfb9a000-0x7fbfbbb000)'
< 1565262316 488161 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'print(0x7fbfb9a000-0x7fbfbbb000)'
< 1565262317 326741 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-135168
< 1565262328 367484 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely not 8 megabytes 
< 1565262444 622639 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Thinking about it, it's hard to imagine the kernel implementing MAP_GROWSDOWN in a way that doesn't involve a fault. Well, maybe on some hardware, but...?
< 1565262472 244541 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's there to give the kernel the freedom to implement it one way or another, depending on hardware?
< 1565262511 142781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like another bizarre way to make things unpredictable.
< 1565262513 22353 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, the flag should still be shown in /proc/'s view of it?
< 1565262518 285239 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idk
< 1565262521 223207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if someone accidentally maps pages near the current end of the stack?
< 1565262531 62718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: of course it involves a page fault. everything involves a page fault, including allocating mapped pages that weren't used before, or bringing pages in from swap, or just the kernel doing whatever at whim. but the page fault is handled in the kernel, it never raises a signal visible to the process.
< 1565262561 919761 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the process can technically tell whether a page is mapped, but it should not do that except for performance optimizations or debugging
< 1565262572 715492 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :faulting pages in is mostly invisible in small amounts
< 1565262599 424758 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's visible when firefox fills up all my ram and my hard disk starts whirring and the whole system freezes to a halt
< 1565262604 920727 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but extending the swap a little won't involve that
< 1565262609 573685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm that is fairly round, 128k plus 4k
< 1565262671 554828 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf => they won't, because the kernel and libc has heuristics and knobs in sysctl for what address range to map things at, so a single-threaded stack is mapped in places where you can't *accidentally* map something below (you can map something deliberately, but that's your problem),
< 1565262701 907783 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Well, trying to answer shachaf's question, "What does it mean for stacks to auto-grow downward? Compared to memory which is mapped and gets faulted in on demand." -- it does get faulted in on demand, by the kernel, transparent to the userland process
< 1565262706 273144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: OK, I tested it and it does indeed grow.
< 1565262707 799961 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for multi-threaded it's the problem of the thread library and you may have to specify a hint for the stack space you need if you are starting LOTS of threads, but then you shouldn't start lots of threads
< 1565262715 967140 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: on what architecture?
< 1565262719 218210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :amd64
< 1565262728 343718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1565262751 552181 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on x86_32 this made sense because the address space was small, and some processes used lots of stack while others used lots of heap
< 1565262763 364281 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could imagine a userspace implementation of growing the stack, that the compiler handles via signals or something, but... why?
< 1565262796 736015 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86_64 right now it's less important, because we have significantly less RAM than address space, but this may change in our lifetime
< 1565262826 974554 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, you can do such a stupid thing. there is an interface for handling SIGSEGV gracefully, but it's hard to get right and good only for silly tricks
< 1565262835 113904 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric tricks really
< 1565262873 42296 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel gives the process all the info about the segfault that it knows in the sa_siginfo or whatever that's called, so the process can know where the fault is
< 1565262898 993242 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement user-space swapping that way, or unusual garbage collectors
< 1565262925 226467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tbh, I hate memory mapping and signals. As abstractions. They're ugly. They're performant, so I see why they're used, but that doesn't mean I have to think they're pleasant.
< 1565262943 257802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a magnitude more dangerous than just the usual cases when you try to do something nontrivial in a signal handler
< 1565262966 451836 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, which is why we usually don't do esoteric tricks like this unless they're really needed
< 1565263018 469910 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: whoa, I thought that edit was a minor phrasing maybe-improvement, but it comes with an essay and it's own project? I'm going to have to read the essay and see if I agree with their point, I have no strong opinion. Correct logic relating to the subject is more important. 
< 1565263024 647497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $'#include \n#include \n#include \nchar buf[1024]; void print_stack() { FILE *f = fopen("/proc/self/maps", "r"); while (fgets(buf, sizeof buf, f) != 0) { if (strstr(buf, "[stack]") != 0) { printf("%s", buf); break; } } fclose(f); } int main(int argc, char **argv) { while (1) { print_stack(); alloca(1024); } return 0; }' >/tmp/f.c;gcc -o /tmp/f /tmp/f.c;/tmp/f>tmp/OUT
< 1565263025 332145 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just let the kernel guys handle swapping, whether it's swapping to disk, to compressed RAM, or (sigh) to network
< 1565263027 855709 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5:    63 Segmentation fault      /tmp/f > tmp/OUT
< 1565263031 121933 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/OUT
< 1565263031 909920 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/OUT
< 1565263058 954259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -e 'print(0x7fbf0d2000-0x7fbf8cf000)'
< 1565263059 688502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-8376320
< 1565263078 456849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :8675309 bytes is the maximum. Figures.
< 1565263087 471157 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stick to writing interpreters in Haskell where I can pretend everything is just math. Beautiful, beautiful math. Which I am bad at.
< 1565263095 768838 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think that may depend on sysctl stuff and perhaps setrlimit
< 1565263123 63258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's always that number.
< 1565263139 123312 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, that aligns with the general good advise to not optimize prematurely
< 1565263152 556839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't?
< 1565263162 702566 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, depends on what you're doing.
< 1565263166 168843 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but this is #esoteric so we sometimes talk about silly optimizations
< 1565263229 575186 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: dude, just last evening I made a program to search solutions to int-e's problem in python, even though that means that the integers take like 128 bytes of memory rather than just the 24 or 32 bytes that I would need in C++
< 1565263234 531027 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing is sluggish
< 1565263239 176491 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should rewrite it in C++
< 1565263254 873038 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did at least get preliminary results, and know what my inner loop is and what I would have to rewrite if I wanted to do it better
< 1565263270 251976 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I presume that int-e's problem is something other than "someone edited my Wikipedia edit to not use 'comprised of'"
< 1565263291 996937 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lY
< 1565263324 392135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: The arguments you made about 32-bit stack usage don't work together.
< 1565263349 741816 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why?
< 1565263364 617027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's designed the way it is to save on address space, you might accidentally map something into that area (by using the rest of your address space).
< 1565263380 707929 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no you can't. 
< 1565263385 197577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it could certainly be an accident, in exactly the cases that it's supposed to be helping.
< 1565263401 78107 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If accidental mappings into that area can't happen, why not just pre-map the whole region?
< 1565263408 747819 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: as a simple model, assume that the stack is mapped near the top of the user address space, and everything else is growing from the bottom of it
< 1565263438 766262 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we don't premap because we don't know if you'll have 256 M of stack and 256 M of heap or 2M of stack and 500 M of heap in an 1G address space
< 1565263456 789876 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: does it have to have all those numbers as prime factors, or just some subset of them?
< 1565263480 768400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a subset according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_number
< 1565263493 836873 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but it's possible that it wasn't because of address space, but because when this was invented, they didn't have MAP_NORESERVE yet
< 1565263509 104951 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: just a subset, at least the way I interpreted it
< 1565263525 435084 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was all those numbers, you'd just have to divide the problem by one of each first and get a smaller problem
< 1565263586 264071 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-08.html#lL is the best I got so far. I'll do a better search, but I'm busy with other things
< 1565263607 951640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I should indeed be in bed right now.
< 1565263700 923917 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they didn't have a way to not allocate the supporting structures that take up like 1/1000 or 1/500 of the memory mapped, which could be a lot on old systems if you have 100 processes with 8M stack mapping each
< 1565263830 43225 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's for some other historical reason that isn't worth to change now 
< 1565264087 983160 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? oots
< 1565264089 67031 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oots? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565264090 850666 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? o
< 1565264091 989888 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o is a popular comedy fantasy webcomic. It's about a group called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence, and eventually stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order.
< 1565264615 508876 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tfw an argument breaks out about whether the filename-selecting regex in the config file should be written as /^.*\.(ts|tsx)$/ or as /^.*\.tsx?$/
< 1565264805 923716 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer to that is obvious
< 1565264849 503626 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print(rand(2)<1 ? "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.(ts|tsx)$/" : "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.tsx?$/"
< 1565264850 119884 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
< 1565264853 339535 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print(rand(2)<1 ? "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.(ts|tsx)$/" : "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.tsx?$/")
< 1565264853 961500 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should definitely be written as /^.*.tsx?
< 1565264862 998807 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh
< 1565264868 44206 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print(rand(2)<1 ? "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.(ts|tsx)\$/" : "it should definitely be written as /^.*\.tsx?\$/")
< 1565264868 689439 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should definitely be written as /^.*.(ts|tsx)$/
< 1565264884 538040 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way is unclear and hard to read and should never be committed to production code
< 1565265008 21439 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: rebooting
< 1565265592 247388 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565266208 450633 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (q: , 0j_2": (9<.@%~_1+10x^50)&-) 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x
< 1565266209 186135 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: |domain error
< 1565266209 205173 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: |       (q:,0j_2":(9<.@%~_1+10^50)&-)11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000
< 1565266219 165000 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (0j_2": (9<.@%~_1+10x^50)&-) 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x
< 1565266219 867152 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: _1.58e38
< 1565266230 179629 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (q:) 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x
< 1565266230 879301 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 29
< 1565266542 74111 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ int-e: that's the best you can get with prime factors up to 29 by the way
< 1565266569 654823 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: The "regular language Jot" is a subset of "all sequences of 0 and 1" according to the definition of a formal language, if we understand 'all sequences' to also include the empty string. In this case 'all sequences of 0 and 1' is the whole, and contains Jot (a subset). So 'all.seq.0.1 contains Jot' => 'all.seq.0.1 comprises Jot'. Flip it to t
< 1565266570 153764 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he passive => "Jot is comprised of all all.seq.0.1"
< 1565266585 749752 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what you wrote originally with "Jot is the regular language comprised of all sequences of 0 and 1"
< 1565266601 725077 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: I think it's exactly the set of all sequences of 0 and 1
< 1565266643 594833 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jot is a programming language, not a formal language
< 1565266648 298489 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I understood it
< 1565266673 280693 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb: yes, that's the technicality that makes both versions equally awkward, but allows my somewhat contrived and cheeky justification to hold ;)
< 1565266684 550611 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)) 11111111111194529560647830327114462838933000000000x
< 1565266685 275598 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 17 17 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 23 23 23 23 23 29 71 | 8.34e37
< 1565266686 54026 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless all Jot does is accept or reject a program. In which case it's a set of strings, i.e. a formal language
< 1565266703 636721 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, it's a programming language
< 1565266706 801252 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in that case it's almost certainly not "any sequence of 0 or 1s" because that's not a very interesting language
< 1565266742 839176 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)) 11111111111185248065004566815208736562760436940800x NB. so far this is worse than the lucky one that I got yesterday
< 1565266743 547010 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 11 11 11 11 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 19 19 19 19 23 29 29 29 29 31 47 | 7.41e37
< 1565266763 676419 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the set of syntactically valid jot programs is equal to the set of all sequences of 0 and 1
< 1565266764 677737 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)) 11111111111161923559652900718659162521362304687500x
< 1565266765 373564 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 13 13 13 17 17 17 17 17 17 23 31 59 | 5.08e37
< 1565266770 591065 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e originally wrote "Jot is the regular language", so I was using that as a starting point 
< 1565266787 73953 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb: that is correct
< 1565266792 961445 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot "Every combination of 0's and 1's is a syntactically valid Jot program, including the null program."
< 1565266800 474252 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the empty string
< 1565266980 230647 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb: your point re. them being equal is key, I was using 'subset' to deliberately (and misleadingly) imply 'proper subset', but rely on the technical meaning of S ⊆ S 
< 1565267027 907939 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make this program output the factoring so that I don't have to enter this command here
< 1565267036 379032 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, this command "proves" that I'm not cheating
< 1565267039 787698 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tone of the anti-"consists of justification 
< 1565267064 916698 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :made me want to construct some kind of argument to justify it on a technicallity
< 1565267108 861319 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can extend any programming language to have a syntax where any string of symbols is syntactically correct but results in some uninteresting semantics such as terminating immediately and producing no output
< 1565267121 190515 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in Jot it's actually interesting
< 1565267158 851516 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an xkcd for this, effect an effect #326
< 1565267235 759948 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)) 11111111111140890057058176051913882460557854562500x
< 1565267236 461751 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 17 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 23 23 23 23 29 29 59 59 | 2.98e37
< 1565267243 53140 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still too big
< 1565267317 141717 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying "There's an xkcd for this" is the modern version of quoting Bible verses.
< 1565267505 791161 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: my point was trying to be something about how some languages have this thing called "syntax" and others don't and you can always take "syntax" away if you like.
< 1565267559 723552 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a front-line triage to eliminate a class of programs we think you won't be interested in running because we haven't defined any particularly interesting meanings for them
< 1565267677 885212 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think you're right, Jot isn't a formal or regular language, so that's a problem with the sentence. How would you phrase it to indicate that that some regular language all.seq.0.1 describes the syntax of Jot, which I think is the intended meaning
< 1565267807 947016 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The syntax of Jot is comprised of the regular language comprised of..."?
< 1565267895 429098 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Any sequence of 0's and 1's is a syntactically valid Jot program" ?
< 1565267931 460367 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a news article about this wiki editior: https://medium.com/backchannel/meet-the-ultimate-wikignome-10508842caad I think I shouldn't be trying so hard to counter their pet peeve
< 1565267956 317877 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm deliberately trying to phrase it in a conversational, almost high-school level way
< 1565268002 809264 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the smallest change to the page as I see it now might just be "The syntax of Jot is the regular language..."
< 1565268005 632849 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's constructive. I should go with that :)
< 1565268085 758572 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a syntax 'equal to' a formal language?
< 1565268132 167875 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: Yes, I think that's fair to say.
< 1565268213 878298 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I wasn't sure. We are in pedantic territory here, I wanted to be sure.
< 1565268603 662017 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try =: ":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)
< 1565268604 330904 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: |ok
< 1565268608 426055 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111122460609418029716397205124244969250000x
< 1565268609 126489 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 11 11 11 13 13 13 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 19 19 19 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 83 97 | 1.13e37
< 1565268928 710909 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All sequences of 0 and 1 comprise the regular language that is the syntax of Jot."  {0,1}* ⊇ Jot syntax "The syntax of Jot is the regular language comprised of all sequences of 0 and 1" Jot syntax ⊆ {0,1}*
< 1565269312 207956 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stop now, and sleep on it before making any wiki edits. I was enjoying the counter-pedantry, not sure these really are good edits. Making the first edit and prompting the wiki user to convert it to the passive 'comprised of' version since Jot is the focus of the article would be funny.
< 1565269332 195838 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All languages are a bit silly.
< 1565269420 599884 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strict natural language grammar only seems valid when the last natural speaker is dead.
< 1565270007 620511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let x = 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875; y = 10^50 `div` 9 in (fromIntegral (x - y) :: Double, fromIntegral x - fromIntegral y :: Double)
< 1565270012 166017 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : (1.045623550113721e32,0.0)
< 1565270097 264419 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565270615 131001 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000x
< 1565270615 834424 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 29 | 1.58e38
< 1565270644 380098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've seen that one already
< 1565270709 932425 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this wasn't a new result; it was just an experiment how bad the cancellation with double precision would be :)
< 1565270781 740025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :11111111111269581656547160489766631945078430800000 is the optimum for the first 11 and 12 primes.
< 1565270799 554350 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, the one I entered isn't really new either, I just started a search with different parameters while the first one is still running (for an expected three more hours), and it found this while it's still searching the part of the search space that I've already searched fully
< 1565270819 330150 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will get in a disjoint part of the search space eventually though
< 1565270833 609572 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1565270874 980039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I couldn't make my approach for finding the optimum work beyond 15 primes. (I actually ran out of memory (32GB here).)
< 1565270893 270751 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I'm not looking for the optimum with a given number of primes now
< 1565270925 162339 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three hour long search that I'm running could find solutions with 103 in them in theory
< 1565270928 405843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(restricting to the first n+m primes was the "first approach" in my paste)
< 1565271163 644393 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first search should eventually reproduce the best solution that I found during the night
< 1565271429 634660 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111112819215968651733403643249992663040000x
< 1565271430 320446 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 17 17 19 19 23 23 23 23 23 23 29 29 29 47 53 83 | 1.71e36
< 1565271440 950198 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still afraid that that one was a lucky fluke by the way
< 1565271482 538948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to suggest a different target to check that theory :)
< 1565271507 818026 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need, I can just modify my search if I want
< 1565271512 621384 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still takes lots of time
< 1565271527 431187 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my search is still an inefficient single-threaded python3 program
< 1565271574 554175 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would probably become much faster if I rewrote it to an efficient C++ program
< 1565271585 476675 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I probably won't do that now
< 1565271588 888213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you using for arithmetic?
< 1565271596 217590 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :python's built-in integers
< 1565271606 188786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... gmp
< 1565271609 760457 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably
< 1565271623 527366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure that's what they use by default.
< 1565271624 64959 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but note that most of the numbers are 1 or 2 or 3 words long, none longer than 3 words
< 1565271634 297345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure.
< 1565271640 394436 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm multiplying numbers so that the product doesn't exceed 3 words
< 1565271691 368603 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the arithmetic isn't the slow part
< 1565271698 614154 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're right; this means that gmp is probably not the bottleneck here; the interpreter overhead should be significant.
< 1565271722 227563 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the numbers are larger than fits in a small int and so allocated randomly spreaded in the python heap 
< 1565271749 239718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a lot of overhead on memory throughput
< 1565271761 745369 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or L3 cache throughput 
< 1565271796 210777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a proper prorgam would allocate these in a dense array, 32 or 24 or 16 bytes per number
< 1565271832 453098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(16 bytes means that I use approximate numbers, which means I need extra code to track the exact values for when I find a hit, but it'd be the most efficient)
< 1565271890 177180 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111111167179461296463398102111816406250000x
< 1565271890 912067 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 11 11 11 11 13 13 13 13 13 17 19 19 23 23 23 23 23 23 23 23 53 61 73 | 5.61e34
< 1565271894 800770 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the one I found yesterday, right?
< 1565271925 218053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1565271928 91955 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1565271932 124075 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so the search reproduced it
< 1565271960 829 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have added code to print anything better than say 1e40, to know if this is a fluke
< 1565271978 322516 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, anything better than 1e38 rather
< 1565271998 210022 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code only prints the best found so far, so I won't know if it finds ten other 1e35 sized solutions
< 1565272038 992777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although technically I could modify the main part of the code and continue from where I stopped it, but I don't want to do that now
< 1565272401 38843 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565272948 144593 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111111158344848599503479968356777700860000x
< 1565272948 806844 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 5 5 5 5 13 13 13 13 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 19 31 89 103 | 4.72e34
< 1565272969 986749 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that one is new, and the best I've found so far
< 1565272977 419212 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, what do you know, 103 is a factor in it
< 1565272997 298298 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^
> 1565273067 209377 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65370&oldid=65322 5* 03A 5* (+2810) 10/* Blocked */
< 1565273225 697779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress.
> 1565273249 620749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65371&oldid=65370 5* 03A 5* (-606) 10/* Minimal J for Beginners */
< 1565273313 227545 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should try to make the memory access more predictable by really-deep-copying the large array, in the sense that I copy even the biginteger objects too (an unnatural operation on python) to have them reside mostly sequentially in memory
< 1565273486 822202 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm...
< 1565273504 908878 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps even 64-bit integers could be enough for the inner loop, and then recheck whenever I get an approximate match
< 1565273517 682375 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could I implement that in python?
< 1565273520 746283 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 64-bit floats?
< 1565273535 613876 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 64-bit floats could work
< 1565273636 786856 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would solve the problem of the inefficient allocation
< 1565273650 765782 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I'd still need to keep the array of exact numbers, but those would be rarely used
< 1565273830 625784 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I almost hate to mention it but... I wonder how suited Julia would be for this
< 1565273848 682232 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, it would work too
< 1565273859 988734 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how well the problem vectorizes, and it's not like vectorization is automatic
< 1565273863 973444 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C++ would work well too
< 1565273981 189365 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know, you can take a stab at trying to solve this if you want
< 1565274045 207570 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I didn't quite catch what the precise problem is, do you have a link?
< 1565274061 567958 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gather it has something to do with prime factorization :)
< 1565274077 450227 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-02.html#lY
< 1565274177 933140 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might try to write a more efficient inner loop
< 1565274185 747548 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't promise anything
< 1565274215 859227 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor: ‘11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111’ is too large
< 1565274217 802999 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :drat!
< 1565274272 760425 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: 78875943472201*182521213001*25601*9091*5051*271*251*41*11
< 1565274304 33921 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I tested that it didn't have all small prime factors, but didn't get a full factorization
< 1565274335 518602 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION used pari/gp
< 1565274344 840610 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt I will have much time to play with it
< 1565274366 377690 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your "(10**50-1)/9" was a convincing enough nothing-up-my-sleeve number that I didn't think you'd cheat by choosing a number such that if you add a very small integer it happens to factor up totally
< 1565274382 849209 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you already said what the best solution you had was
< 1565274397 909481 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I didn't intend to cheat... I wanted something where it was easy to see progress :)
< 1565274403 288195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(look for the first non-1 digit)
< 1565274409 539139 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactlyi
< 1565274437 571378 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find it easy to see progress because I can't count 15 ones by hand
< 1565274459 351123 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I have the computer print the difference in %e format
< 1565274461 836735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well, I put the numbers in a file, one line each
< 1565275027 787546 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :13328592851757862349726964424185557245693157222400
< 1565275045 760355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,11,13,2,3,2,5,11,23,2]
< 1565275053 731100 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 13328592851757862349726964424185557245693157222400x
< 1565275054 437735 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 5 5 7 11 11 11 13 13 17 19 23 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 | 2.22e48
< 1565275071 498689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to use all of the primes
< 1565275094 348593 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I know, but I thought it would be a good place to start
< 1565275116 101239 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I at least fulfilled the letter of the challenge, given my limited time to work on it :)
< 1565275140 678250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111112137520138469338239234808374004904964760870
< 1565275141 396254 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |value error: try
< 1565275141 414852 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |       try 1.11111e49
< 1565275152 166718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111112137520138469338239234808374004904964760870
< 1565275152 871559 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |value error: try
< 1565275152 925865 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |       try 1.11111e49
< 1565275153 308063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111112137520138469338239234808374004904964760870x
< 1565275154 19570 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |value error: try
< 1565275154 38930 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: |       try 11111112137520138469338239234808374004904964760870
< 1565275161 35448 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you need to load my environment first, by like
< 1565275165 522928 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, cd:
< 1565275165 842107 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, changed to wob_jonas,#esoteric
< 1565275174 787507 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: try j-bot, load: wob_jonas
< 1565275188 410531 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, safe: ,
< 1565275196 99389 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, save: ,
< 1565275196 417016 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, copied ,#esoteric from wob_jonas,#esoteric
< 1565275209 745275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, per user state
< 1565275214 154815 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: or you can j-bot, cd: ,
< 1565275220 413109 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, load: wob_jonas
< 1565275220 735257 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, copied int-e,#esoteric from int-e,wob_jonas
< 1565275222 955634 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, it was a strange decision
< 1565275230 547649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1565275233 983346 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can also have multiple sessions in theory
< 1565275271 280487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, 11111112137520138469338239234808374004904964760870 is the best possible if all primes <= 103 need to be used.
< 1565275273 656720 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sorry, apparently wrong syntax
< 1565275287 194653 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, load: int-e,
< 1565275287 518169 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, copied wob_jonas,#esoteric from int-e,#esoteric
< 1565275303 627301 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, clean:
< 1565275303 965026 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, changed to wob_jonas,#esoteric and cleared it
< 1565275312 603444 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, clean: ,
< 1565275312 926324 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, changed to ,#esoteric and cleared it
< 1565275319 298119 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try =: ":@q: ,' | ', 0j_2":-&(9<.@%~_1+10x^50)
< 1565275319 909516 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: |ok
< 1565275329 442174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the target is 111...111/p_1*...*p_27 = 463255947, which is very feasible for brute force)
< 1565275364 561509 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, pwd:
< 1565275364 880834 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, working session is ,#esoteric
< 1565275495 367480 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the three-hour long program is getting close to done
< 1565275526 798979 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't run a longer version of that, instead I'll have to improve the program
< 1565275731 675263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111115397052046616165917913561809835753472x
< 1565275732 392474 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 11 11 11 11 17 17 17 17 17 17 19 19 19 19 19 29 41 43 43 47 47 | 4.29e36
< 1565275761 915920 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not particularly good, but at least it's new
> 1565276012 368150 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65372&oldid=65371 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+199) 10repo is almost complete
> 1565276036 651742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65373&oldid=65372 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-2) 10
< 1565276091 17817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, that was stupid
< 1565276113 338334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I tried (10^49-1)/9...
< 1565276133 63736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I got 1111111111111111140001838971183119543667539375000 which looked eerily similar to 11111111111111111400018389711831195436675393750000
< 1565276180 26877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is nice in that it indicates a certain robustness of the approach. But other than that this should be utterly unsurprising :)
< 1565276211 657271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lesson: 10 is smooth)
< 1565276273 822746 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, that's what you get if your search prefers small prime factors, like I do too
< 1565276305 187462 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the solution above happens to be not divisible by 5
< 1565276306 349585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, mine doesn't do that, exactly. but many of the solutions still feature small prime factors :)
< 1565276332 198172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so happy that 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875 is not divisible by 2 :)
< 1565276346 563991 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1565276388 388457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also wouldn't be surprised if it was actually optimal... but I see no way of proving such a thing.)
< 1565276775 699403 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three-hour search finished and didn't find anything better
< 1565277628 609300 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565277771 257864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565278400 84575 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I thought of some infinite initial conditions in Conway's Game of Life. For example, you could have an infinite barber pole. It doesn't need caps on the ends, it just goes on forever.
< 1565278431 616813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that sort of thing in most cellular automata, I think
< 1565278563 929467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's anything particularly philosophically problematic about them, it's just that I don't know if anyone studies them much
< 1565278671 8831 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts getting problematic when you start considering the infinite configuration which enumerates (and thus contains) all possible finite configurations
< 1565278706 617142 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not problematic, then at least kind of weird
< 1565278857 834636 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could probably make a philosophical objection that, for a sufficiently complex infinite form, a single tick is doing an infinite amount of computational work
< 1565278885 499483 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The barber pole is simple and repeatable and you can efficiently predict how any part of it will be at any tick
< 1565278926 499144 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, just thoughts I had recently
< 1565278961 396869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of a design in the Game of Life I made a while back, which contains a rake that moves at the maximum possible speed for a moving object
< 1565278997 166076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it creates a constant stream of spaceships that, no matter what they do or what mess they create, will never be able to create anything that shoots down the rake producing them
< 1565279042 582480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering if it would be possible to create some sort of infinitely active pattern like that, but what typically happens is that eventually an eater evolves out of the mess and neatly terminates the infinite stream of spaceships
> 1565279628 156823 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Gulp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65374 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+563) 10Created page with "'''Gulp''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by ][[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It was made for golfing, and it is [[deque]]-based  == Specifics..."
> 1565279646 673949 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Gulp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65375&oldid=65374 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-1) 10
< 1565279667 648618 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way since it's CA time in here
> 1565279671 452318 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Gulp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65376&oldid=65375 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-2) 10
< 1565279680 187481 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much have people studied CAs on arbitrary / random graphs?
> 1565279731 46637 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65377&oldid=65207 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+11) 10/* G */
> 1565279754 741865 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65378&oldid=65181 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+11) 10/* Full List of languages I Made */
< 1565279830 204707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565279903 767722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565279956 55622 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4
< 1565280812 795176 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "I was wondering if it would be possible to create some sort of infinitely active pattern" - Golly comes with a couple of patterns that are more or less like that.
< 1565280850 932925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it's hard to prove that they're like that and don't end up eventually chasing down and destroying themselves
< 1565280856 331000 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :True.
< 1565280887 867241 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I've been thinking about replicators in CAs.
< 1565280926 476698 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's von Neumann's CA with, what, 27 states?
< 1565280948 355271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot, yes
< 1565280962 941042 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :29 states.
< 1565280967 851970 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, that's quite a lot. :D
< 1565280968 685467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Game of Life has replicators but in general it seems like a really fragile system
< 1565280986 330479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a random block or glider somewhere can completely break a complex pattern and there's nothing you can really do about it
< 1565281003 650467 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1565281042 240853 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen... three general categories of replicators, I think?
< 1565281076 607277 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, rather, three categories of CAs with replicators.
< 1565281097 688711 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are "naturalistic" CAs like Conway's Life, and Star Wars or whatever.
< 1565281116 595622 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple rules, huge and complicated replicators.
< 1565281162 882433 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are von Neumann-style CAs. Complicated rules, large and complex replicators, but not quite as bad as the Conway's Life ones.
< 1565281186 696493 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there are Langton's Loops-style CAs. Medium-complexity rules, very simple replicators.
< 1565281332 872401 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The upside of the naturalistic and VN-style CAs is that you can build universal constructors in both of them.
< 1565281347 2052 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Langton's Loops supports universal construction. I don't know if it can even do computation.
< 1565281438 994531 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, I'm trying to remember why LL requires a "sheath". You know what I'm talking about?
< 1565281460 945255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of, my memory of this is pretty vague
< 1565281490 238259 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to WireWorld, LL has "wires" that signals can go along. But unlike in WireWorld, the wires have to be surrounded on each side by a special state.
> 1565281556 152908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Braincells14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65379&oldid=65363 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+3169) 10Hopefully the spec is finished, just need execution examples and clarification. WIP
< 1565281566 609736 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmm, here's one reason. In WireWorld, there's a particular state which indicates the tail of a pulse. In LL, on the other hand, the state for the tail of a pulse is identical to the background state.
< 1565281600 316974 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the "sheath" state is necessary to regenerate the wire in the wake of a pulse.
< 1565281604 521625 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it was designed that way.
< 1565281675 94070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it increases the chance of the wires acting sensibly when they collide?
< 1565281735 730230 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let me look up how construction works in LL.
< 1565281999 521554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1565282077 574984 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading Langton's paper in which (I think) he describes LL. http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~gt512/BIC/langton84.pdf
< 1565282171 591039 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :He writes that in order for a CA pattern to be considered properly self-replicating (as opposed to being a pattern which merely "gets replicated" by the rule), it ought to contain some "code" which is both used to direct the replication process, and copied into the daughter pattern.
< 1565282192 604993 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is awfully similar to the way that a traditional quine works.
< 1565282198 553555 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a tricky definition to make precise
< 1565282207 301375 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of like the question of whether viruses are alive
< 1565282211 697751 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they need a certain environment to reproduce
< 1565282215 627059 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so does every lifeform
> 1565282261 925909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65380&oldid=63533 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+101) 10Added [[Braincells]] to language list
< 1565282329 480337 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1565282365 930478 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also reminded of a definition that someone on the Code Golf Stack Exchange site suggested for a "proper quine".
< 1565282415 99906 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is that the program should contain at least one element which codes some *other* element of the program.
< 1565282469 863748 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Replicating cellular automata", like 1357/1357 or whatever it is, obviously don't allow you to create a replicator which satisfies that criterion, since each element of the mother pattern codes itself and only itself.
< 1565282542 551013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565282571 513593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably write the inner loop in C or C++, with 64-bit floats
< 1565282580 414222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't promise that I'll do it
< 1565282608 453143 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it in now
< 1565282637 682115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: infinite initial condition for game of life can be useful because it lets you send signals at light speed, while otherwise you can only send signals (repeatedly) at half life speed
< 1565282647 769061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/half life/half light/
< 1565282663 611741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, people do study that
< 1565282713 397971 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565282756 596581 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: Neumann's CA => http://esolangs.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_29-state_cellular_automaton -- not that there's much info there
< 1565282978 353914 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to determine what time zone is used to display the recent changes in a MediaWiki service if not registering an account?
< 1565282993 262205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: python, and I only have the bigint version, not one that does the inner loop with doubles and then checks near matches with bigints
< 1565283230 941036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what page are you viewing on the wiki? 
< 1565283281 483186 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: cython is a really easy way to rewrite an inner loop as native code
< 1565283421 388569 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody made a hexagonal-neighborhood loop replicator CA, which is an awfully good idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kTMO7oEN8U
< 1565283723 365531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: nah, I want to write it in C++, which I already know, and know enough to be able to figure out how to optimize it properly
< 1565283731 890502 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565283736 149859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't try to learn some new tool for this
< 1565283742 235769 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ctypes is also easy
< 1565283747 791571 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I recommend learning cython at some point
< 1565283754 335270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get the basics in no time
< 1565283762 469821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again, feel free to take a stab at the original problem too
< 1565283795 550606 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you pretty much just put c type declarations on your python variables
< 1565283816 105419 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme see. So, in LL, a 7 signal is the signal which indicates that the arm should be extended by one cell. The sheath is the part that actually responds to the signal. You couldn't have the background state respond to the signal directly, because if you're a background cell and there's a 7 next to you, you don't know whether you're supposed to respond to it or not.
< 1565283816 558795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no need for anything like that here
< 1565284498 493187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The recent changes (but not the esolang wiki; it is a different one)
< 1565284588 98917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so the Special:RecentChanges page in the default html view?
< 1565284605 254983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes.
> 1565284648 639957 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Semordnilap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65381&oldid=60021 5* 03Orby 5* (-8) 10/* See also */
< 1565285150 637806 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm trying to figure out why, in Langton's Loops, two consecutive "4" signals are required in order to effect a turn, instead of just one.
< 1565285409 942212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: good question
> 1565285497 448047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65382&oldid=65377 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+17) 10/* B */ Added Braincells to the language list.
< 1565285557 910449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know a good answer. if api.php is enabled (it is not on Wikia), even for read only, then you can use that to query the recent changes in a different format, but that's not trivial
< 1565285598 117775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use api.php to query the default timezone of the wiki, but I'm not sure if that's always the one used on recentchanges for unregistered users or something may override it
< 1565285644 616278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you can try asking this question in a mediawiki-related channel on freenode, such as #mediawiki
< 1565285808 179319 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565285829 796690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps one of the SpecialPages also tells the default timezone? I dunno
< 1565285963 233825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Timezone says how to set the default timezone and that that's used in Special:RecentChanges, but doesn't say how to query
< 1565286000 146953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, got it
< 1565286045 116610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: view the page Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-rendering and see what timezone it says there
< 1565286061 77094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :under "Time zone:"
< 1565286094 885960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, that doesn't seem to wokr
< 1565286113 126237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not reliably at least
< 1565286125 265055 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says it is an invalid special page
< 1565286317 869762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is the api.php enabled? if so, you can try loading /w/api.php?action=query&prop=info&meta=siteinfo&format=xmlfm&siprop=general|namespaces|namespacealiases|interwikimap|specialpagealiases|magicwords and see what it says in the timezone attribute of //general , but I'm not convinced that that's always right because I think there's multiple timezone settings
< 1565286380 544518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the api.php is enabled, then it's possible to query the recent changes with it
< 1565286391 672827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can compare the date there with the date in the html view
< 1565286656 101545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: look at /w/api.php?action=query&generator=recentchanges&list=recentchanges and compare its timestamps with the one in /wiki/Special:RecentChanges
< 1565286692 1193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, this won't work on wikia, or some other wikis where api.php is not enabled
< 1565286794 65699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that works though on what I am trying to access.
< 1565286874 25018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good
< 1565286912 114618 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page has the docs for api.php in case you want to go more completely with that, eg. get the Recent Changes from only there rather than just eyeball the timezone
< 1565287299 495187 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1565287566 777784 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65383&oldid=62321 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+743) 10Reduces from Boolfuck --> turing complete
> 1565288000 384530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65384&oldid=65383 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+1) 10Fixed typo : "(-v)+" ---> "(--v)+"
> 1565289371 9590 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65385&oldid=59728 5* 03Orby 5* (-5) 10/* See Also */
< 1565290115 857625 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo
< 1565290441 70920 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :o/
< 1565290490 214884 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I could come up with a cellular automaton that's kind of "in between" Codd's CA and Langton's Loops.
< 1565290548 517172 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :LL only has two commands: extend forwards and extend left. That's great as long as little square loopy replicators are the only thing you ever want to make.
< 1565290624 988520 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Codd's CA has lots of commands that do lots of things, but a replicator in that CA is very complicated.
< 1565290786 182820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this "Codd's CA"?
< 1565291046 11956 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_cellular_automaton
< 1565291102 349624 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to think how how LL might be extended to permit, say, a loop with a kink in it.
< 1565291162 661117 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :In LL, replication essentially consists of just executing the program four times. It does exactly the same thing the first three times (extend for a while and then turn left), and something different the last time (extend for a while, then collide, causing various interesting stuff to happen).
< 1565291171 260143 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: wait, isn't that the same as Langton's loops?
< 1565291188 880728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they both have eight states on a square grid and make squares
< 1565291203 325449 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Codd's CA came first. Note that the pictured loop doesn't replicate; it merely extends an arm forever.
< 1565291228 592283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1565291245 378165 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you tried to make "a Langton's loop" in Codd's CA, you'd find that the program to generate one side of the loop is too long to fit inside of the loop.
< 1565291276 255376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565291279 722092 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Langton takes advantage of the fact that producing one cell of the loop requires a 3-cell instruction, but the program is executed 4 times, and 4 > 3.
< 1565291280 554594 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of loop rules in golly's sample directory
< 1565291372 739392 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a couple of similar-to-codd rules like devore
< 1565291407 523345 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the Devore rule is pretty much a strict improvement of Codd's rule. It's better in every way and lets you build a much, much smaller replicator.
< 1565291500 985875 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pondering this "loop with a kink in it" idea. You could do that with something very similar to a Langton's loop, if only you could somehow make it so that certain parts of the program are only executed some of the time.
< 1565291688 874747 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now I'm just thinking about how to accomplish that.
< 1565291963 535940 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd want some way to store a finite state, and suppress some of the program some of the time depending on the state.
< 1565292050 581472 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmm. I like the way my thoughts are going. :D
< 1565292276 604990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :daisy daisy... ah no, that was HAL's mind going.
< 1565292407 646445 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mother loop can be totally passive, and merely send the program out over and over again. The construction arm can have a part on it that's a state machine and filter.
> 1565292697 558233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Post Dominos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65386&oldid=60349 5* 03Orby 5* (-5) 10/* See also */
< 1565293129 638209 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are all merely codons within the mother loop
< 1565293788 404974 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565295045 711318 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565295247 306807 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565295248 38148 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565295354 883047 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've figured it out. I can do almost everything with 12 states.
> 1565295678 746985 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Minaac14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65387&oldid=59930 5* 03TheJebForge 5* (-120) 10/* Minaac */
< 1565295802 693434 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565296052 501937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: implement it in GPU :-)
< 1565296069 232597 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gonna implement it in Golly. :D
< 1565297039 591044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565297387 513095 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how fractran works
< 1565298462 777967 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :a positive natural is a multiset of primes hth
< 1565299525 841775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean like 11111111111115397052046616165917913561809835753472 ? is that a multiset too?
< 1565300060 961874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 11111111111115397052046616165917913561809835753472
< 1565300061 621354 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor: ‘11111111111115397052046616165917913561809835753472’ is too large
< 1565300067 546709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's too large to be a multiset.
< 1565300197 819734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1565300261 740891 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn BLJ is a move that lets you solve NP-complete problems with no stars and just one key.
< 1565301349 500734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-239.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565303740 128582 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retroforth's case statement causes the function that's using it to exit if the condition is met
< 1565303957 753914 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, know anything interesting about cellular automata on random graphs?
< 1565303970 234044 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like you could model some social behaviors that way
< 1565304046 913373 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-alclzwgawtunnogg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565304727 42588 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565305323 374972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the brain.
< 1565305340 148868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Golly. I've never even thought about cellular automata on non-planar graphs.
< 1565305561 663872 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565306395 104270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess you're about ready then!
< 1565306574 256842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm ready for fluffy cat whiskers
< 1565306577 72528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that on the menu
< 1565307084 92275 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe
< 1565307740 419492 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I successfully made a loop that extends itself. Woo.
< 1565307815 434326 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i = 0; while(1) { this_block.append("print(%d);", i); i++; }
< 1565307844 395079 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point I should make a new implementation of Braintrust. Except the best language for that is probably either Common Lisp or maybe some ... assembly like thing? And I have no interest in Common Lisp these days
< 1565307865 879775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not do it in ALGOL 68?
< 1565307874 896770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ALGOL 68 is quite an interesting language.
< 1565307892 254776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has features not present in many or any modern languages.
< 1565307909 986287 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And certainly in languages that existed in 1968.
< 1565307913 401368 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does ALGOL 68 have functionality to preserve the current state as an executable that will run another function when started?
< 1565307942 946711 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine think you could dump memory to a file and load it back up later.
< 1565307966 864452 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.9.html
< 1565308008 58920 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I could just... directly copy+modify the current executable, if there's specific data in the executable in a predictable location
< 1565308025 320126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a reasonable approach.
< 1565308032 718722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tmp/out.a
< 1565308033 239538 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally
< 1565308046 77320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` xxd tmp/out.a > tmp/out.a.xxd
< 1565308046 703725 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: xxd: command not found
< 1565308078 45972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` hd tmp/out.a > tmp/out.a.hd
< 1565308078 755814 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1565308081 28293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/out.a.hd
< 1565308084 328611 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/out.a.hd
< 1565308084 644229 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if that's sort of like cheating, to compile into an interpreter and call it a "compiler"
> 1565308164 36893 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65388&oldid=65373 5* 03A 5* (+287) 10/* Concern */
< 1565308623 440125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: that's one of the futamura projections. a compiler is a curried interpreter
< 1565308630 569485 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provide the program and at some point later you provide the program's input
< 1565308641 195640 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the question is just how much optimization takes place at the earlier point
< 1565308981 557717 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I have left turning and right turning. I've implemented...
< 1565308985 762511 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Universal Turning Machine.
< 1565309008 915740 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's capable of facing any direction that any turning machine can face.
< 1565309294 567290 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1565310535 919773 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, shoot, I might be nearly done implementing my rule. I think I have enough stuff to make an almost-replicator now.
< 1565311934 297959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What features is that that ALGOL 68 has and is not present in many or any modern languages?
> 1565315757 366365 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65389&oldid=65388 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+313) 10Ask User: A for info on String Compression
< 1565315855 749402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ALGOL_68_and_C%2B%2B talks about some features
< 1565315878 39949 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think distinguishing values from memory locations is pretty unusual.
< 1565316057 204373 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565316331 245421 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565316991 665834 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the features seem like good. Some seem like should be implemented by macros instead, perhaps.
< 1565318277 991904 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-alclzwgawtunnogg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565318514 775503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a implementation of Haskell in JavaScript that can interface Haskell codes with JavaScript codes?
< 1565318975 427736 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dang, I successfully built an almost-replicator.
< 1565319013 356111 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I can upload some pictures.
< 1565319018 257742 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before replication:
< 1565319035 803334 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uploaded an image: image.png (82KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/jCTRLEizSoOEpqnHMyfvfNFQ >
< 1565319073 143872 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :After replication:
< 1565319076 670405 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uploaded an image: image.png (137KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/pNIJWOGhAgTGjPJQkIAUumtf >
< 1565319184 818345 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this is essentially a Langton's loop... more or less.
< 1565319217 71586 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The genome consists of five segments, separated by orange signals.
< 1565319364 426079 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segment 1 extends the construction arm and puts filter data along it using teal and cyan signals. Segment 2 simply extends forward a bunch of times using cyan segments. Segment 3 makes a single left turn, then moves forward 5 times. Segment 4 turns left, moves forward 4 times, and turns left again. Segment 5 turns right, moves forward 5 times, and turns right again.
< 1565319485 109573 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ummmm, a video would make this a lot clearer. Maybe.
< 1565320012 928127 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565320048 991362 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ede9:f667:a65d:8a2c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565321055 973601 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, have a very smol animated GIF which shows how it works.
< 1565321066 477796 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uploaded an image: radiator2.mc-2.gif (383KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ubOayEqlZPdhljpZLpbVdZCe >
< 1565321149 182191 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first segment writes a data tape along the construction arm. That data tape is then read in order to determine which segments of the program to pass through to the daughter, and which segments to suppress.
< 1565321191 909505 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the mother creates a near-copy of itself, and then sends its complete genome into the daughter, neither the mother nor the daughter is capable of reproducing afterwards.
< 1565324219 525111 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am getting the impression that there are multiple versions of Retroforth, mostly unrelated except in name and creator
< 1565325146 786540 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know about compiling LLVM into new targets?
< 1565325403 703126 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awezoome did a Pachelbel Canon in D
< 1565325407 749222 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Awezoom
< 1565325446 78583 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://modarchive.org/module.php?34369
< 1565325527 662635 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canon of the Three Stars?
< 1565325730 855708 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m], huh, Mirek's cellebration came with Langton's
< 1565325751 196290 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes with a lot of things
< 1565325792 681695 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or something similar. The website doesn't say Langton's, hmm)
< 1565325924 201175 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Langton's
< 1565325944 341183 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mirekw.com/ca/rullex_udll.html#DNA
< 1565326102 646888 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/ead48728917153cb8fe2c2c2221f2e75
< 1565326135 766159 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565327425 873342 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it should be "pretty easy" for me to implement full self-replication in my CA.
< 1565327459 513927 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just imitate exactly what Langton's Loops does.
< 1565327543 601349 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd also like to try to think of a better way.
> 1565329953 994418 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65390&oldid=65389 5* 03A 5* (+290) 10/* Concern */
< 1565330032 251693 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1565333215 785389 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565333462 237184 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I am happy to say that I was wrong a few days ago. It does in fact appear possible to build arbitrary control structures directly in a second-order concatenative language.
< 1565334357 336910 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have an esolang around this soon. Maybe not today though.
< 1565334705 937798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you have a viable definition of the concept? I imagine "concatenative" translates to composition of functions, and second-order means that those functions have shape (p -> q) -> (p -> q) for some (non-functional, but perhaps algebraic) types p and q?
< 1565334798 636069 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Basically exactly that, yes.
< 1565334810 978705 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and p == q.
< 1565334818 768391 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Program states to program states"
< 1565334839 251985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They happen to be stacks on unbounded integers in the esolang.
< 1565334841 850114 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of
< 1565334997 333183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can always replace (p -> q) by ((p,q) -> (p,q)) :)
< 1565335372 670861 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565335440 441406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, but I guess you have an informal naturality condition in there as well... something that prevents the translation of, say } (end of block) to embed a full interpreter of your language...
< 1565335555 423351 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565335607 942302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Otherwise we can just enter a "recording" program state on encountering the first '{', collect the program source including nested '{','}' pairs, and execute it upong the final '}', possibly in a loop.)
< 1565335806 579031 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes. Or if the function being composed can be examined, } could examine it and look for the { and copy the contents -- basically equivalent to what you just said.
< 1565335845 844965 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my use of "directly" is trying to suggest that the program doesn't have to examine itself like this.
< 1565335914 642672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Functions aren't ordinarily considered something you can examine the structure of, but... you could just say you're concatenating a monoid and later on you'll interpret it so for now you could examine it. Or something.)
< 1565338105 785171 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr.  I think I have to downgrade "arbitrary" to "More arbitrary than I thought, but not totally arbitrary"
< 1565338442 735995 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565338534 908773 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565338998 858065 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565344298 631712 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with shachaf that exceptions can be kind of awful. But handling possible error returns in every single place a function is called (and every place *that* function is called etc) is also awful.
< 1565344315 692422 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think of them as "non-local exits" they don't seem as bad.
< 1565344333 282016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions are an unusual kind of non-local exit because they don't specify where the exit goes to.
< 1565344345 345646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to setjmp or continuations or whatever.
< 1565344539 298187 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to think about where they're catched. The type of exception usually suggests some kind of interface, or at least convention, for where it should be catched. But it's very difficult to formalize it, and raising exceptions at every opportunity makes it that much harder.
< 1565344567 449560 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, seriously, `car` in Scheme can throw.  `[]` in Python can throw.
< 1565344572 439807 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is 'try' like capturing a continuation and then assigning it to a dynamically-scoped variable?
< 1565344931 750651 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often (sorry, just ranting here) I catch an exception only to throw a different exception. I've done this enough that in my head I call this the "exception translation antipattern".
< 1565344990 342721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, I think it's a bit like a dynamic vs. lexical scope thing.
< 1565345021 733147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I started writing a bit about error handling at http://slbkbs.org/tmp/5.error.handling.txt though I never finished it.
< 1565345127 963869 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's attempt to build an effect system around exceptions feels like an attempt to make it more like lexical scope. Thing is, Java programmers tell me they hate it and they just end up using unchecked exceptions instead.
< 1565345153 402396 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Will give it a look, thx
< 1565345167 866946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Later I found out that Zig has almost the same system I came up with.
< 1565345207 176310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checked exceptions doesn't seem like the same sort of thing.
< 1565345288 669003 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I raise X I want to know that I've been called by someone that is prepared to catch X" sounds, okay maybe not "lexical", but a lot less "dynamic" in scope
< 1565345315 900276 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"someone", there I go personifying things again. Dijkstra would not approve
< 1565345358 608287 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with personifying things?
< 1565345412 920897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exceptions try to do a lot of things and they don't seem to do any of them that well.
< 1565345437 742105 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to find the note where he blames a lot of problems in software on people's tendency to anthropomoriphize it
< 1565345441 862384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should never anthropomize computers. They hate it when you do that.
< 1565345462 393667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write "foo() raises XError { bar(); vaz(); }" and I expect vaz to fail with XError, it becomes invisible to me that bar might also do that.
< 1565345482 594276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*antropomorphize
< 1565345502 241233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1565345514 285092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[second correction elided]
< 1565345537 739064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not antwerpomorphize the dutch hth
< 1565345778 962792 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html
< 1565345800 294657 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My next linguistical suggestion is more rigorous. It is to fight the "if-this-guy-wants-to-talk-to-that-guy" syndrome: *never* refer to parts of programs or pieces of equipment in an anthropomorphic terminology, nor allow your students to do so."
< 1565345828 334997 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not
< 1565345874 956960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about "if you give me an epsilon I give you a delta"
< 1565345878 816343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/W/w/
< 1565345891 435942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I acknowledge that Dijkstra held opinions, I don't necessarily agree with them, nor always understand the reasons for them
< 1565345899 565685 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what if I don't give you an epsilon
< 1565345920 144391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you have to, sorry
< 1565345923 691914 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1565345929 821146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be really small
< 1565345932 864198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :as small as you like
< 1565345972 390310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me, I have an ill-formed question about models of computation that I don't remember whether I asked in here before.
< 1565345989 397458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: meh I think of programs as actors that modify some virtual world... personification is just a tiny step further.
> 1565346032 969978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Foo machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65391 5* 03A 5* (+1670) 10Created page with "[[Foo machine]] is a hypothetical machine created by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/189572/does-this-foo-machine-halt Leo Tenenbaum] in order to demonstrate tha..."
< 1565346041 450426 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also allow "worlds" to be terribly abstract)
< 1565346054 700688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some facts, like "seemingly impossible functional programs" (equality of total predicates over infinite streams of bits is decidable, etc.) and the fact that integration is computable, that seem pretty mysterious at first when you look at them from the standard perspective.
> 1565346058 366221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Foo machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65392&oldid=65391 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10
< 1565346069 341996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even if they don't seem mysterious, the implementation details tend to be fairly convoluted.
< 1565346121 597899 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact the actual idea of the implementation is very simple so it's annoying that it has to be expressed the way it does.
< 1565346176 870169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd much rather see e.g. the integration thing described as an explicit non-nested dialog between two parties.
< 1565346198 43289 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565346208 618403 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565346220 151735 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1565346230 129820 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: can you give an example of that?
< 1565346239 380672 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe for impossible functional programs
< 1565346244 274106 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that expressed as a dialog?
< 1565346245 565035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like, we have a single communication channel, and you can send me questions about the function, and I can ask you questions about the arguments, and so on.
< 1565346268 572387 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :these sorts of things are also v. important in complexity theory and cryptography, of course
< 1565346272 487509 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arthur-merlin classes, etc
< 1565346285 349310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Let's see, what are the existing ways of expressing it?
< 1565346286 286337 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/
< 1565346296 97041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1565346302 233646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know two ways which are kind of different.
< 1565346306 703316 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I've seen the article; I was wondering specifically how to express it as a dialog
< 1565346312 870482 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also I don't recall how any of it works at all
< 1565346341 553405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll give a simpler version of it than the one in that post so we can talk about how it works.
< 1565346365 4029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Conat = Z | S Conat is either a natural number or infinity (disallowing bottoms).
< 1565346426 171660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :find :: (Conat -> Bool) -> Conat is a function that either returns the smallest conat that matches the predicate, if one exists, or returns infinity.
< 1565346464 473615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :find pred = if pred Z then Z else S (find (pred . S))
< 1565346497 634311 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This function works by asking pred Z, pred (S Z), pred (S (S Z)), etc., and outputting a single S each time it gets a no answer.
< 1565346509 744452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1565346532 972442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can use "exists pred = pred (find pred)" to see if any conat matches the predicate.
< 1565346566 87709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since pred is total, this is guaranteed to give an answer, and pred will only ask for some finite prefix of your conat.
< 1565346592 350121 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pred is total by assumption?
< 1565346605 208317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, this whole thing only works for total predicates.
< 1565346619 93441 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Is this all lead-up to your ill-formed question?
< 1565346627 756349 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Totality is a very strong condition here.)
< 1565346628 574698 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c I'm a bit lost
< 1565346653 142535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, now I'm just explaining this thing because it's neat, to discuss other ways of framing it.
< 1565346702 881897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say, you're my counterparty, and you give me a predicate, call it p. I can ask p questions by passing you a handle to a conat, call it n.
< 1565346711 404015 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can send me questions about n, and so on.
< 1565346783 783129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the end the dialog between us will look like "<- here's p, -> here's n, <- is n > 0?, -> yes, <- is n > 1?, -> no", etc.
< 1565346828 537126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a flat thing rather than a sneaky recursive structured thing. "totality" means that you'll only ask me a finite number of questions about n, and I can just look at the questions and see what the largest number you asked about is.
< 1565346896 635608 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorely tempted to claim all flat things are recursively structured (you just can't usually see the recursion because it's VERY sneaky)
< 1565346945 489374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, you can specify things with recursive structure.
< 1565346955 159005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think almost everyone who sees "seemingly impossible functional programs" is confused at first.
< 1565346982 974811 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a wonderful impure way to do the ((Nat -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Nat -> Bool thing... you're given an interrogator (Nat -> Bool) -> Bool that interrogates a subject Nat -> Bool and comes up with a boolean answer in finite time. So you send in subjects that remember the questions they were asked... the first question will always be the same, the second depends on the first, and so on; so you...
< 1565346988 963708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...can reconstruct the whole tree of question this way. The mind-boggling thing is that you can do basically the same thing in a pure function.
< 1565346999 67170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I can tell them is, "imagine you pass me a Turing machine that specifies the predicate. Then I pass that machine a Turing machine that specifies a conatural, and I can simulate it to see what it does, and so on"
< 1565347021 293970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think we were just typing a similar kind of thing there.
< 1565347046 799204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is yet another model of computation.
< 1565347101 370135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd like to see something that makes the dialog explicit. There are only two parties, the exists player and the forall player or whatever you call them.
< 1565347114 3899 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: on random graphs => I was thinking you should use something like the delaunay triangulation of the poisson process ("http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html") to get a planar grid of cells that is isotropic
< 1565347114 305840 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only you'd probably have to modify it somewhat to make the degree bounded, perhaps by turning it to 3-regular by replacing each node by a loop
< 1565347131 34266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write "((a -> b) -> c) -> d" it doesn't change the fact that b/d are one player's and a/c are the other's.
< 1565347193 167172 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "I've never even thought about cellular automata on non-planar graphs." => wait really? because Game of Life uses king neighbourhood, and that's not planar
< 1565347211 663392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe I meant something stronger than non-planar.
< 1565347214 769850 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, so it's not
< 1565347233 895796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about non-euclidean geometry
< 1565347300 78299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part of the point is, if you say "forall epsilon, exists delta, forall x, ...", the person making the epsilon and x decisions is the same person.
< 1565347337 431081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To require them to phrase it in terms of "manufacturing a special sub-person who can make x-choices and passing that sub-person to you" is a complex and bizarre restriction.
< 1565347437 794332 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something but tbh I've never understood what corecursion is so I'll not say anything
< 1565347455 51534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehrenfeucht–Fraïssé games for programming, hmm.
< 1565347482 511523 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: looks interesting
< 1565347515 328917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a separate programming thing where APIs that are defined in terms of callbacks are sometimes much more awkward than APIs that aren't, because they restrict your flow control to happening in particular ways.
< 1565347526 657364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Rather than just passing events or something.)
< 1565347541 10776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control flow. That one.
< 1565347608 425535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think there are probably versions of this that aren't as explicitly about corecursive structures, though maybe it's always implicit in some way.
< 1565347626 54939 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, in the sense that functions are codata rather than data, or something.)
< 1565347791 858132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one of the things that's usually confusing about seemingly-impossible-functional-programs:
< 1565347834 208017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People say "I don't see how it's possible, because I can ask pred infinity, and I can ask pred 0,1,2,3,...,n, but that doesn't tell me anything about pred n+1"
< 1565347874 200711 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is that you have to pass pred a conatural that's itself expressed in terms of pred. That's the sneaky recursive thing I was referring to.
< 1565347901 554843 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... am confuse
< 1565347963 850872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which part?
< 1565347965 217034 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "I catch an exception only to throw a different exception. I've done this enough that in my head I call this the "exception translation antipattern"." => you mean, you make your program print sensible error messages that tell what the user did wrong, rather than some nonsense about where the error was detected like "NullPtrException in me
< 1565347965 569183 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssage.java:418", and it's an antipattern because it hurts your job security if other people can use your program?
< 1565348018 726227 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf "What's wrong with personifying things?" => the computers don't like when you do that
< 1565348021 972633 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's an antipattern only in the sense that different modules define sets of exceptions that are only meaningful to them, and any time an exception crosses those boundaries, you have to "translate" it to make it meaningul
< 1565348032 533638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: You know perfectly well that's not what cpressey mean and you're not being helpful or nice when you phrase it like that.
< 1565348037 801098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, int-e already asid that
< 1565348074 307867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...That was probably an overstatement to something that was a harmless joke.
< 1565348075 914921 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: By the part where people find this thing about Cantor space any more impossible than, say, the claim that there is no greatest even integer
< 1565348118 830159 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1565348119 924769 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I just universally quantified over an infinite set there in claiming that, pretty spooky huh
< 1565348141 554099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean you don't see why people are confused?
< 1565348165 119102 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, people are confused about a lot of things.
< 1565348190 201710 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a computational question so I don't the connection to there being no greatest even integer.
< 1565348232 334770 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A big problem here is that I don't know what a conatural is
< 1565348255 111422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's an element of the one-point compactification of the naturals, if that helps.
< 1565348263 249499 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't.
< 1565348269 426847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not: It's a monotonic function : N -> 2
< 1565348272 971171 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you know how inductive codata works?
< 1565348294 583339 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there sure are a lot of ways to define the same thing, eh?
< 1565348300 357917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: It's a Turing machine that either prints some number of 1s and then halts, or keeps printing 1s forever.
< 1565348310 697717 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are only two parties, the exists player and the forall player or whatever you call them." => I heard they were called Adam and Eve, Adam for the forall quantifiers and Eve for the exists quantifiers
< 1565348328 281474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀dam and ∃ve
< 1565348328 323662 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but it will always print the next 1 within finite time, right?
< 1565348344 530525 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: No, I don't.
< 1565348346 846894 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes
< 1565348359 394720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes.
< 1565348377 218229 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well do you know what people mean when they say haskell has 'infinite data structures'?
< 1565348387 517498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i I guess cpressey only learned the counterexamples and not the topology
< 1565348423 58747 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, I know what they *mean*, but I try not to use that term myself, if that makes sense
< 1565348436 85305 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you want a better term you could call them codata ;)
< 1565348448 853408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell people are often very confusil about which things are data and which things are codata.
< 1565348470 935406 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell all 'data' structures are codata
< 1565348488 723289 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write  data Nat = Z | S Nat
< 1565348497 16196 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you actually defined conats
< 1565348514 884681 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can construct the value S (S (S (S ... to infinity
< 1565348529 926635 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why people are surprised that you can apply one lazy thing to another lazy thing and conclude it will be true for all instances of the thing
< 1565348553 531833 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every integer is either odd or even"
< 1565348553 801929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Wait, which lazy thing?
< 1565348558 682953 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: co-thing
< 1565348566 988414 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you prefer that terminology
< 1565348582 429599 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are confused because they can't think of an actual algorithm to compute it.
< 1565348606 331292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the algorithm is obvious.
< 1565348632 389927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or even the fact that it could exist.)
< 1565348652 10471 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking whether a total predicate holds for all elements of a set doesn't even sound like an algorithm to me, it sounds like a proof
< 1565348660 420629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proofs are programs, thanks Curry, thanks Howard
< 1565348683 450590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm not even sure whether we're talking about the same thing.
< 1565348708 492902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :forAll :: (Conat -> Bool) -> Bool is certainly not a proof that Bool is inhabited.
< 1565348713 46755 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc Ints
< 1565348713 401278 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard!  Proving things in the type system.  We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
< 1565348738 78390 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well, I'm probably talking nonsense
< 1565348750 16724 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it doesn't surprise *me*, and I'd like to know why that is
< 1565348772 125352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too!
< 1565348810 553347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The claim is: I can write a program that takes a predicate (over the conaturals, or the Cantor set), and decides whether the predicate holds for every input.
< 1565348834 951416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set is infinite, so you can't just try every input.
< 1565348864 53563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying it's not surprising which probably means you have some model for what inputs can be exhaustively searched by an algorithm, and you think these things match that model?
< 1565348946 995030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, obviously it's not surprising to me now because I know how it works, but it was surprising to me until I thought about it carefully.)
< 1565348970 206581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I used to be a snarky little shit, eh?
< 1565348970 545638 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can write a proof that takes a predicate, shows that it holds for a base case, and shows that it holds for succ(x) if it holds for x, and conclude from that that it holds for all x. Does that surprise you?
< 1565348974 866490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I still do, but I used to, too.
> 1565348991 359883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Binerdy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65393&oldid=49903 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+84) 10+CATs
< 1565349000 41561 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the difference?
< 1565349003 915707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, the claim I'm making holds for the conaturals (with infinity), but it certainly doesn't hold for the naturals.
> 1565349021 58290 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07English Binerdy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65394&oldid=55887 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+72) 10
< 1565349040 384479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if the thing you're saying works for the naturals then it's probably not the thing I'm talking about.
< 1565349050 411230 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not thinking about a thing!
< 1565349075 510627 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, maybe I was extrapolating too far. Induction doesn't surprise me.
< 1565349086 173458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Induction on the naturals, I mean.)
> 1565349137 6679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Darmok14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65395&oldid=43237 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+37) 10+WIP +CATs
> 1565349160 13727 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Forth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65396&oldid=63187 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10+CAT languages
> 1565349187 244530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mishmash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65397&oldid=54590 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10+WIP
< 1565349196 598481 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cantor space may be infinite, but it has a finite description. How do you traverse an infinite thing, whether in a proof or in a program? By traversing all cases of its finite description.
< 1565349231 616512 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it doesn't surprise me.
< 1565349245 353025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But N also has a finite description.
> 1565349249 749014 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07IBNIZ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65398&oldid=40608 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+10) 10
< 1565349253 375198 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the letter N?
< 1565349257 168519 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naturals.
< 1565349268 658376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℕ
< 1565349276 703651 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's why I can say things like "Every integer is either odd or even" without testing every integer
< 1565349321 192486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but you can't write a program that takes an arbitrary predicate, such as "is either odd or even", and tells you whether every natural satisfies it.
< 1565349329 657875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can prove it for that specific predicate.
< 1565349357 399906 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I can certainly write a program that tries to prove it or refute it...
< 1565349368 768289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and the program might not halt.
< 1565349379 830157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas for the Cantor set you can write the program, and it'll always halt and give you the correct answer.
< 1565349402 545731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming the predicate itself is total.)
< 1565349431 497556 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program will halt if certain conditions are met.  The predicate must be total.  The infinite set must have some properties that (presumably) being Cantor space gives it.  Not surprising.
> 1565349445 93116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B-tapemark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65399&oldid=38916 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+68) 10
< 1565349482 429603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's something surprising, it's that being Cantor space, gives it that property.
> 1565349490 502948 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pieces14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65400&oldid=13796 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+12) 10
< 1565349495 896032 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it doesn't hold for some other spaces.
< 1565349499 466864 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the surprising thing.
< 1565349514 80595 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to me that's something surprising about Cantor space, not the program!
> 1565349524 844663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hyperfunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65401&oldid=46445 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10
< 1565349528 939482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "exhaustive search of the Cantor set is possible" is the surprising statement here.
< 1565349547 117981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program shows that it's possible.
< 1565349580 658545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what it's worth I still don't know exactly what the properties that make it possible are.
< 1565349613 306796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has to do with compactness, but I'm not sure exactly what the computational content of compactness is, and how it's being used here. I only know how to write it for specific compact spaces.
< 1565349643 493577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like "whether this fact is surprising or not" is quite a detour from the original question anyway.
< 1565349663 523639 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't know much topology, so I guess I don't officially know if it should surprise me or not?
< 1565349701 360975 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite resigned to the fact that there are a lot of topologies with weird properties, so when someone says "Hey! Did you know that you can show X for all of Cantor space" it's not like I'm "REALLY?"
< 1565349722 36605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What was the original question
< 1565349727 248470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ill-formed one.
< 1565349753 741116 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The one where you wanted to tail-call optimize Arthur and Merlin?
< 1565349816 699754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I?
< 1565349837 53074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Arthur-Merlin thing seems to be about computationally bounded agents whereas I was just talking about computability for now.
< 1565349857 586114 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about one computationally bound agent, Arthur, and one unbound, Merlin
< 1565349860 615117 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Something like that? You wanted to flatten the conversation between two parties in... one of those things.
< 1565349876 699865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm curious about flattened conversations, sure.
< 1565349894 666614 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are twisted versions with more than one Merlins
< 1565349901 306776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you find it surprising that integration of computable functions on computable reals is computable?
< 1565350036 769508 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ehm. Not sure. The thing that surprises me there is, you have a function and its range is computable reals and you can integrate it at all?
< 1565350043 551360 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*only the computable reals
< 1565350067 737154 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that, like, discontinuous?
< 1565350106 107372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit like saying you have a function on the rationals and you can integrate it. I suck at analysis, but I didn't think that was even valid?
< 1565350112 821893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you can say it's a function that works on every real.
< 1565350126 908988 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't distinguish the computable ones from the uncomputable ones, of course.
< 1565350189 384777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I already don't understand why algebraic complex numbers form a field, despite that I was supposedly taught enough Galois theory in the university courses to have to know the proof. 
< 1565350201 239414 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computable numbers are way worse than that, they have very surprising properties that are impossible to guess.
< 1565350236 471463 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And like lots of different definitions that sound similar but are actually different, so you have to be careful what you use in which statement.
< 1565350276 324194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mumbles something about the effective topos.
< 1565350305 50597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like nothing is materially different if you just say "reals" instead. If you have an oracle for an uncomputable real, your computable function will work fine with it.
< 1565350320 908624 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Wait, what's hard about those things? Where do you get stuck?
< 1565350356 92110 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are you just saying that you haven't thought about it recently enough to know for sure
< 1565350377 312002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Hale
< 1565350382 253662 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, I'll rephrase. I'm surprised that integration of *any* functions is possible *at all*.
< 1565350387 471079 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: for the computable reals, I definitely haven't tought much about it ever, because it seems so theoretical and I never really needed it
< 1565350388 211991 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like magic
< 1565350388 366377 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hellochaf
< 1565350394 678623 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :End of story
< 1565350441 38309 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do care a little about the practical side, as in specific algorithms that are either useful in real life or close to useful, but not the abstract stuff 
< 1565350443 763462 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: To say that computable reals are a field is basically saying that the field operations are computable.
< 1565350449 406573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's reasonable enough.
< 1565350490 163142 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: yeah, that in particular isn't too hard, but there are other questions you can ask
< 1565350722 772099 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Gabriel's Horn surprises me.
< 1565350752 803664 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't doubt that integration is a valid concept and all, but, damn.
< 1565350925 932025 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the algebraic numbers, I think I understood enough about that at one point (even if I didn't understand all of Galois theory), but has forgotten how it works since.
< 1565350988 572803 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These days, all that stuff I hear from algebraic geometers on the internet just scares me away.
< 1565352867 491592 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565354611 658 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iznunuulqtyxgjil JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565357007 593024 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could start talking about codata, but if I start it could just go on forever
< 1565357070 300720 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I daresay I have distinct finitist and formalist leanings
> 1565358149 99428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Logical/Interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65402&oldid=53265 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10
> 1565358228 636324 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07QuineLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65403&oldid=59404 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10
> 1565360181 890579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65404&oldid=64910 5* 03A 5* (+60) 10/* Grin */
> 1565360216 189820 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65405&oldid=65404 5* 03A 5* (+28) 10/* Gulp */
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> 1565364193 568537 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ZSwifty 5*  10New user account
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< 1565366181 942290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Java's attempt to build an effect system around exceptions feels like an attempt to make it more like lexical scope. Thing is, Java programmers tell me they hate it and they just end up using unchecked exceptions instead. ← this problem arises in Java almost entirely as a result of checked exceptions that you know statically can never occur, but still exist in the signature
< 1565366386 141959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple example is «string.getBytes("UTF-8")» which according to the type system can throw a checked exception (because the type system can't see that "UTF-8" is a literal string and thus always names a valid character set), the checked exception would be necessary if the "UTF-8" were a string specified by the user
< 1565366474 481279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, «string.getBytes(Charset.forName("UTF-8"))» doesn't throw checked exceptions (because for some reason, Charset#forName uses an unchecked exception if the charset name is unrecognised)
< 1565366526 790033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and «string.getBytes(StandardCharsets.UTF_8)» is a workaround for the whole mess that only became available fairly recently
< 1565366548 453020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any of this is an argument against checked exceptions, but I do think it's an argument for doing constant-folding before type-checking
< 1565366604 173150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, this issue isn't specific to checked exceptions, it happens with other forms of error handling too
< 1565366627 538349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in Rust you need to explicitly convert errors to panics with «unwrap» in cases where you know they can't possibly happen, and yet that removes some of the static safety guarantees of the language
< 1565366674 618245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after programming in Java seriously for months, I ended up in favour of checked exceptions (or at least, explicitly enumerated error cases) and against the way Java treates checked exceptions
< 1565366750 211640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I see very little difference between Java and Rust error handling, the only difference is a minor syntactic one (Java propagates exceptions by default and requires try…catch to convert them to return values, Rust treats errors as return values by default and requires ? to propagate them, but in either case the only difference is the syntax at the call site)
< 1565366751 224713 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1565367153 615910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp squirrel
< 1565367155 205066 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic squirrel feeder:Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. \ bureaucracy:Bureaucracy (from French bureau, "burrow") is a political system in which squirrels rule the nation, and burrow their nuts. \ nutella:Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders. \ squirrel:A squirrel is a small nut-harvesting unit frequently deployed all over the worl
< 1565367186 210254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? squirrel
< 1565367187 189184 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A squirrel is a small nut-harvesting unit frequently deployed all over the world. They are popular due to their usefulness in distracting dogs.
< 1565367204 271400 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? automatic squirrel
< 1565367205 292638 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic squirrel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1565367314 367166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I didn't expect to get *two* T-ventions.
< 1565367557 149941 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: automatic squirrel feeders were the first I believe
< 1565367561 184371 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't seen nutella before
< 1565367761 694809 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've seen the spread, just not the wisdom entry
< 1565367770 676458 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a huge fan
< 1565367780 81062 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of the spread, the wisdom entry's OK)
< 1565367811 435702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1565368186 225494 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AutoColdKey14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65406 5* 03A 5* (+210) 10Midnight creation
> 1565368393 855332 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AutoColdKey14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65407&oldid=65406 5* 03A 5* (+123) 10Now it is a stub.
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< 1565368576 188238 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :do
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< 1565368996 297587 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iznunuulqtyxgjil QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565369046 779186 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
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< 1565369147 82283 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cmxykylbzvixyrym QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565369149 802480 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jsgngwyifopekixx QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565369273 360195 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
< 1565369635 651950 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ivusnbormtkzsizv JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565370423 932060 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EPARM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65408&oldid=16949 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10/* More ideas */ +CAT
< 1565370680 675188 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmfyclzdfvohorkx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565370744 773086 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565370770 948061 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565370973 709935 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ycazwzptahgqxucs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565370973 997585 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565370982 631138 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cffvqwftheblxqww JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565371243 196798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: Look if you want to strike up a conversation here, you need to try a little harder. Drop an interesting idea (programming language or computation related preferrably), be articulate, and be prepared to wait minutes to hours for a reply (if any). What you're doing is making you come across stupid and obnoxious.
< 1565371479 94942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565371598 83019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1174
< 1565371598 827970 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1174: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1565371610 762388 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565371702 293261 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard this idea from another person: an eso where you can change the speed delta but not overwrite it
< 1565371712 281567 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't turn a right angle straight away
< 1565371720 406863 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to tuuuurn slowly until you get to face right
< 1565371743 854977 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main storage of this eso *is* the speed delta (velocity)
< 1565371754 32151 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a sort of tape
< 1565371826 165091 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the initial tape is set to (0,0)(1,0)(0,0) where the first set of 0,0 is position and all the ones after (1,0) are speed delta deltas
< 1565371896 601123 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an integer called the "meta-level" of the delta you are manipulating
< 1565371904 412489 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the greek letter delta increases it, _ decreases it
< 1565371944 730882 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :to say again: this idea is not mine, it originated from reconcyl#4042 on the esolangs discord
< 1565372003 867778 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a p cool idea
< 1565372299 192662 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565372551 682388 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565372699 987272 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565372950 507613 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1565375069 388338 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565375295 817975 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565375295 906066 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1565375595 849901 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1565376051 560363 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565376227 168336 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565378786 103716 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? morphology
< 1565378787 230132 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it.
< 1565378797 264415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? second wisdom
< 1565378798 332849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second wisdom is that wisdom can never be complete or consistent.
< 1565379111 996680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`q corollary
< 1565379112 617201 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :57)  ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
< 1565380339 276427 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565380890 366350 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565381563 511116 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565381721 931766 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1565381736 220800 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565381812 823308 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glulx has a frame pointer, but it points to an address space that you cannot read from or write into.
< 1565383995 983985 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmfyclzdfvohorkx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565384302 385201 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565384437 231120 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565384473 732653 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565384478 451491 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude
< 1565386210 418911 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cffvqwftheblxqww QUIT :Quit: Idle kick: User has been idle for 23+ days.
< 1565388354 791396 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565388382 862469 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565389720 911976 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dooifelwmftwodau JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565390541 286660 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565390760 855726 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1565391213 868945 :Xunie!~Xunie@unaffiliated/xunie JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565393806 763650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65409&oldid=65033 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+45) 10/* External Resources / Reference Implementation */
< 1565394539 836197 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565396181 328480 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1565396960 65607 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1565397011 366953 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565399214 524319 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565399297 80655 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dooifelwmftwodau QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565400091 358329 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.166.226 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1565404960 721553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: a bunch of speech-related programs use a timescale where the unit is 0.1 µs (or 100 ns, if you prefer), and I think that might be because it's the largest power of 10 in which both (1s / 8000) and (1s / 16000) are integers (1250 and 625, respectively), meaning at the common speech sampling rates of 8 kHz and 16 kHz sample offsets are integers as well.
< 1565406152 983829 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565409601 843034 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1565409710 582432 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565410040 504612 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565410228 286093 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1565411644 934351 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Calamari2 5*  10New user account
> 1565412095 945582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65410&oldid=65331 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+220) 10Add greeting
> 1565412156 958001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Barely14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65411&oldid=39230 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+12) 10Fix external links
> 1565412189 676887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Barely14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65412&oldid=65411 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+0) 10Typo
> 1565412230 979620 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MinISCule14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65413&oldid=8428 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+12) 10Fix external links
> 1565412309 943134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Numberix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65414&oldid=43409 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+4) 10Fix external link
> 1565412401 428276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hanoi Love14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65415&oldid=43697 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+8) 10Fix external links
> 1565412447 122524 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spaghetti14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65416&oldid=30465 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+4) 10Fix external link
> 1565412479 547180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Linguine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65417&oldid=43471 5* 03Calamari2 5* (+12) 10Fix external links
> 1565413257 180804 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65418&oldid=65410 5* 03Calamari 5* (+188) 10
> 1565413312 357224 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EsoAPI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65419&oldid=43465 5* 03Calamari 5* (+4) 10Fix external link
> 1565413342 858908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bubble14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65420&oldid=30445 5* 03Calamari 5* (+4) 10Fix external link
> 1565414071 554310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Calamari14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65421&oldid=64593 5* 03Calamari 5* (+158) 10
> 1565415428 331400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jeffry Johnston14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65422&oldid=30463 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10/* See also */
> 1565415440 536934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jeffry Johnston14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65423&oldid=65422 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* See also */
< 1565416682 723079 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
> 1565419582 953029 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65424&oldid=64480 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+1497) 10/* String Compression  */ new section
> 1565419619 289659 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65425&oldid=65424 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (-2) 10/* String Compression */
< 1565421501 225172 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565421699 500110 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565422220 222961 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565422402 204590 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565422648 471838 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1565424354 209554 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565424523 199528 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1565424569 685756 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65426&oldid=65117 5* 03A 5* (+2526) 10/* Computational class */
< 1565424899 629575 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565425096 260935 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565427506 454982 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565427677 48959 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565427699 216143 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565428930 548306 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565428946 964924 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
> 1565429927 340598 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Gamer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65427&oldid=65320 5* 03Gamer 5* (+29) 10
> 1565430103 923728 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65428&oldid=65409 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10/* Truth-machine */ Originally from EdgyNerd, then I golfed it.
> 1565430479 422017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Gamer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65429&oldid=65427 5* 03Andrew3335 5* (+511) 10
> 1565430510 971314 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Gamer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65430&oldid=65429 5* 03Andrew3335 5* (+6) 10
> 1565433904 183019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65431&oldid=59885 5* 03Gamer 5* (-96) 10/* Commands */
> 1565434472 605238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65432&oldid=65431 5* 03Andrew3335 5* (+582) 10
> 1565434761 407612 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65433&oldid=65432 5* 03Andrew3335 5* (-6) 10
< 1565436043 404432 :andrewtheircer!6d5d711e@109-93-113-30.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565437402 196749 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565437621 497520 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1565439251 423308 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65434&oldid=65425 5* 03A 5* (+389) 10/* String Compression */
< 1565439958 222688 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565440615 51164 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565440827 867731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bucket14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65435&oldid=61797 5* 03A 5* (-120) 10Make it look much less scary
< 1565441303 657915 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565441477 51200 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565442198 415324 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565442198 563812 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1565443039 953359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65436&oldid=65434 5* 03A 5* (+261) 10
> 1565443901 841117 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bucket14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65437&oldid=65435 5* 03A 5* (+111) 10/* Implementation in C (provided output instructions just for debugging) */
> 1565443916 142111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bucket14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65438&oldid=65437 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Implementation in C (provided output instructions just for debugging) */
< 1565446005 70394 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565448820 497367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65439&oldid=64213 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+229) 10
< 1565449456 548079 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565449474 965864 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: eso supporting infinite computational power, code and input and output
< 1565449599 276971 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1565452537 220438 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565454474 10182 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565455161 750222 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: september 13th, 2108 is the earliest date for any smartphone to reach one million hours
< 1565455314 238485 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565455316 632784 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565455838 788392 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 🤷‍♂️
< 1565455839 910678 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1F937 SHRUG \ UTF-8: f0 9f a4 b7  UTF-16BE: d83edd37  Decimal: 🤷 \ 🤷 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \  \ U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER \ UTF-8: e2 80 8d  UTF-16BE: 200d  Decimal: ‍ \ ‍ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \  \ U+2642 MALE SIGN \ UTF-8: e2 99 82  UTF-16BE: 2642  Decimal: ♂ \ ♂ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \  \ U+FE0F VARIATION SELECTOR-
< 1565456572 372768 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a NNTP server that allows downloading copies of very old Usenet articles if I know the message ID of the article I wish to download (even if no article number is stored for such messages)? I received a follow-up to a (allegedly) eighteen year old article. (There are actually at least six articles leading up to it, which I have the message IDs of.)
< 1565456781 915445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about a NNTP server, but Google Groups (or rather, its Usenet integration) used to have a way of doing that.
< 1565456793 55923 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I can't seem to figure out how to do it any more.
< 1565456882 993606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, if you know the group the message was in, you can search for that group first, and then when you have a group open the little down arrow from the search box opens an advanced search form with "Message ID" as one of the fields.
< 1565457269 995155 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwqbwdedbbjxuuwu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565458057 240185 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google Groups is not work on my computer (although I have once found one link that does work, except that it seem to try to hide email addresses), and I do not have or want a account there. Also, the newsgroup it belongs to is probably rec.arts.int-fiction (it is possible, although unlikely, that a follow-up message is posted to a different newsgroup than the original was).
< 1565458088 819996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also I want to download the message into my local bystand database)
< 1565459783 160134 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I have seen URLs linking to stuff on Google Groups, and I think a problem with it is that the URL does not include the message ID. I have seen other web sites also with messages from Usenet, and they don't have the message ID in the URL either, unfortunately.)
< 1565462315 778389 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Google Groups URLs don't include message IDs, one likely reason being that it's organized in terms of "topics" (threads) first. But each message has a "show original" option, which shows almost the raw message, including the Message-ID header. The one difference is that email addresses have been redacted.
< 1565462328 469141 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565462347 977344 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an unfortunately modern-style website, though, so it's no surprise it doesn't work well.
< 1565462473 724933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some messages from rec.args.int-fiction from 2001 in Google Groups, so it might have the message(s) you're interested in. I don't think there's necessarily a way to get the message data with email addresses intact.
< 1565463690 973814 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a header that can be added to tell Google (and other archiving services) not to mangle email addresses, in case the author of the message wants it to remain intact?
< 1565464223 741702 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One problem is that sometimes there is the possibility that many programs will believe something to be a email address even though actually it isn't.)
< 1565464451 730901 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is there a way to access the raw message directly by a URL containing the message ID (and anything else it contains remains constant)?
< 1565464645 548486 :ranzinida!b0d6067f@176.214.6.127 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565464953 294595 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think unfortunately the answer is no to both.
< 1565466397 308201 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565466576 913094 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565466867 866334 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I figured out. First, you prefix the message ID without < and > by "http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=", and then it redirects to a URL starting with "https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/". Replace that prefix with "https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=" and then the message can be accessed.
< 1565467214 687951 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I found that it is actually a double redirect.
< 1565467603 534026 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565468012 280763 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565468155 925643 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1565468185 553146 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565468223 512668 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565468223 547439 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host
< 1565468223 547493 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565468788 216173 :ranzinida!b0d6067f@176.214.6.127 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565469780 762522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One possible work-around to the mangling the email addresses is to add a new header, which contains the information needed to demangle the message.
< 1565469972 745912 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565470170 766349 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps, to add "Demangle-Head" and "Demangle-Body". For Demangle-Body, it consists of a sequence of tokens separated by white-space. For each at sign in the body of the message, take everything between it and the nearest white-space before it, and add that as a token into the header value.
< 1565470332 772265 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Demangle-Head, it is similar, but each token is preceded by a header name and then a colon; if there is a colon with no header name specified, then it is the same as the previously specified header name.
< 1565470347 705262 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-xgyzoixhrimwhcqr QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565470427 367770 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this way, if a message is downloaded from Google Groups or any service that performs similar mangling, the original text can be recovered.
< 1565471653 294562 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565471957 519712 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.154.65.142 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565472524 362640 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1565472708 264446 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bucket14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65440&oldid=65438 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1) 10'Derivative' was confusing/incorrect. ('Variant' meaning clarified by the code golf contest)
< 1565473038 674735 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.154.65.142 QUIT :Quit: I LOVE CATS!!!
< 1565474176 419784 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps, a new THREAD command should be added into NNTP, which searches for follow-ups to the specified message ID, and outputs the list of message IDs.
< 1565476199 571639 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long ago is the Earth spinning at (close enough to) the current rate and the other related stuff that the calendar would be usable from? That is what I would have defined the year zero as.
< 1565477916 877393 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.154.65.142 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565478808 391921 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.154.65.142 QUIT :Quit: mildshjgdoshgomdshqgqdsfghp
< 1565480651 667518 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwqbwdedbbjxuuwu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565480943 733529 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1565481484 106857 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65441&oldid=65428 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+111) 10/* See also */
< 1565482632 816450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565483092 448424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Girl Genius theory: the entire thing's going to be a shaggy dog story, with Agatha, Gil, and Tarvek being unable to claim their titles due to having died in Castle Heterodyne during the Si Vales Valeo procedure <-- only tarvek really needs to worry.  gil never actually died, and agatha's title is decided by the castle, which already knows and doesn't care.
< 1565483155 191685 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION @tells in private, just in case
< 1565483161 222519 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dontaskdonttelllist
< 1565483163 236804 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​
< 1565483167 4320 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Taneb there
< 1565483250 480402 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's the future detective story where agatha definitely rules mechanicsburg.
< 1565486126 397173 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565486851 38175 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like OpenID but that does not require a web browser?
< 1565487249 248411 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I am writing a document of a idea of it
< 1565488112 158431 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net NICK :Sgeo
< 1565491010 943556 :mniip_!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565491267 670163 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 620 seconds
> 1565491315 221360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Calamari14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65442&oldid=65421 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+362) 10Asking Calamari for MS DOS clarification
< 1565491448 971514 :mniip_!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip NICK :mniip
< 1565493211 445801 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ycazwzptahgqxucs QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1565493214 170730 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1565493215 768034 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kackpwqdkqqshueb QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1565493224 821795 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565493226 366043 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txqzeqoelgczgxvi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565493287 156173 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hjrrsfkvrqlhfzdn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565493313 652943 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1565494428 339522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/openid_no_html
> 1565495079 728231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Calamari14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65443&oldid=65442 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+42) 10/* Issues With Page */
< 1565495927 280187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops! The rec.arts.int-fiction.mbox.zip file I found on archive.org does not quote lines beginning with "From " as it should.
< 1565496426 719998 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it does not contain mangled email addresses, even though the data seems to come from Google.
< 1565497323 887414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1565497899 393092 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible for a file in Linux to be both a dynamic library and also a stand-alone executable file, that it can fork/exec itself?
< 1565499081 893609 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1565501122 570659 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565501353 640884 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565504906 624800 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ojqbwsjsgttrqqhz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565505957 537316 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-qldzpapgtnypluuy JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565506234 275418 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-qldzpapgtnypluuy QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1565506336 885002 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Gamer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65444&oldid=63564 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Madbrain (Python 3) */
> 1565506375 24230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Gamer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65445&oldid=65444 5* 03Gamer 5* (+1) 10/* Madbrain (Python 3) */
> 1565506400 603523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Gamer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65446&oldid=65445 5* 03Gamer 5* (-8) 10/* Madbrain (Python 3) */
> 1565506450 681783 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Gamer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65447&oldid=65446 5* 03Gamer 5* (+6) 10/* Madbrain (Python 3) */
> 1565506474 643548 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Gamer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65448&oldid=65447 5* 03Gamer 5* (-1) 10/* Madbrain (Python 3) */
< 1565506586 309843 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote a program that provides a NNTP interface for downloading a single message from Google Groups if you know its message ID (the only supported command is ARTICLE with a message ID; you can't select newsgroups or do anything else), which can be used as a protocol extension for bystand. (Bystand has the ability to do NNTP communication with local programs.)
< 1565506909 592540 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, write a program to convince Google to uncensor alt.hypertext so I can see Tim Berner-Lee's announcement
< 1565506944 338232 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.hypertext/eCTkkOoWTAY/urNMgHnS2gYJ
< 1565506949 213952 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unreachable :(
< 1565506993 977717 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/1991/08/art-6484.txt
< 1565507280 836336 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently literally anyone can edit MDN https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Basics_of_HTTP/Evolution_of_HTTP$compare?locale=en-US&to=1569093&from=1551070
< 1565507524 783551 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to convince Google to uncensor alt.hypertext, although if the message is readable anyways by the second URL, then you can read it anyways I think, isn't it?
< 1565507635 459515 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only found that second URL now, after I complained about Google's censorship
< 1565507669 40826 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or well, their destruction of valuable history
< 1565507781 745436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :See if the Usenet archives on archive.org include the messages you want, maybe
< 1565507822 112396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But know that some lines are not quoted properly in the mbox file.)
< 1565507998 54466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want, set up your own NNTP server with a copy of all messages you want to save.
< 1565508064 374949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :NeXT - how cute
< 1565508186 62111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did it go, "The price makes it a personal computer, the performance makes it a workstation, and the unit sales make it a mainframe."
< 1565508346 911384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know what went wrong though. Not enough software?
< 1565509265 199828 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565509348 110776 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, what is that about, a specific computer?
< 1565509355 935263 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I didn't see your first line
< 1565509598 220533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That happens to me all the time. (missing context)
< 1565509630 274192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, go really hates unused things.
< 1565509710 575300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the point but this is really annoying in explorative code.
< 1565509907 47510 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ippuamdafcgifmce JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565511400 662816 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565511447 639655 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565512337 551300 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565512341 690518 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1565512495 239174 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565512523 455927 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565513396 788372 :andrewtheircer!4d2ec205@77-46-194-5.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565513485 157652 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565513510 659217 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565514341 29344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you think http://paste.debian.net/1095332/ is a sane thing to do?
< 1565514386 121310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw I'm not sure why they had to abandon the "while" keyword)
< 1565514752 769465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what end?
< 1565514776 743306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :merging generators of course.
< 1565514959 57523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're asking whether the implementation is reasonable given the task (spawn a thread that reads from two channels and merges the values into an output channel).
< 1565515042 83902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Partly. Partly I'm wondering whether using channels as lazy lists is sane.
< 1565515087 614068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually believe it may be sane in terms of incurred overhead, if I also use the buffering feature.)
< 1565515113 923890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that depends on your use of lazy lists.
< 1565515146 231728 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turning [1..n] into a channel to do an iterator thing is surely not reasonable.
< 1565515198 843996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably some uses could be OK? But they're not really the same thing.
< 1565515565 908260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm toying with smooth numbers again... so a) they're not all that predictable and b) laziness comes up because I don't really know how far I will need them.
< 1565515621 896902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in a way I'm pondering a trade-off between boilerplate for explicit chunking and convenience.
< 1565515680 286295 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like introducing preemptive threads to emulate laziness is not a net gain.
< 1565515707 692990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But possibly it works for your case.
< 1565515714 90198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when are you using Go?
< 1565515752 467855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since today? I'm not sure "using" is the right word.
< 1565516024 526000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interface{} ... hey, does that mean that they're fully embracing duck-typing?
< 1565516069 381973 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Duck interface{ quack() }
< 1565516185 565197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know Go does type-checking at runtime to generate vtables?
< 1565516194 401100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does string comparison of interface method names and so on.
< 1565516376 334458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, wonderful.
< 1565516822 758815 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ojqbwsjsgttrqqhz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565517467 441448 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'm barely keeping my eyes open so I'll go to sleep.
< 1565519602 585421 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565519816 801953 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565522871 596441 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565523085 495116 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1565525364 295218 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1565528793 606701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh... let's define an interface... hmmm, interfaces need names... I know! Let's call the interface "Interface"! https://golang.org/pkg/sort/#Interface
< 1565531479 539493 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565531653 287210 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565533413 235569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 hours later it dawns upon me that Go doesn't have generics... which is... fascinating.
< 1565533511 374682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The solution seems to be a) interfaces; b) a perversion of the DRY principle (to wit: "DO repeat yourself") and c) reflection. The `sort` package features all of these.
< 1565533683 89864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sort.Float64s, sort.Ints, sort.Strings are repetitions of boilerplate code; Slice() takes an argument of type  interface{}  which is akin to `void *`, and does some reflection under the hood. And there's the aforementioned "Interface" interface that is used to drive the internal sort methods.)
< 1565534320 999296 :diverger!~div@89.238.130.200 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565535550 376032 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1565536127 661875 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565536211 996520 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, for anything outside the sort package the name of the "Interface" interface is "sort.Interface", which isn't *that* silly.
< 1565536219 929110 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lack of generics is probably the most talked-about thing of the language.
< 1565536271 353752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a draft design for Go 2.0 generics, which is not yet a proposal, but a "starting point for discussion".
< 1565536271 463402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have four code snippets that sort a slice of ints and I like none of them: sort.Ints(ps), sort.IntSlice(ps).Sort(), sort.Sort(sort.IntSlice(ps)), sort.Slice(ps, func (i, j int) bool { return ps[i] < ps[j] })
< 1565536303 66016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Summary of Go Generics Discussions" document is 22 pages.
< 1565536304 601634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly because I don't see *why* I have to tell anybody that it's a slice of ints at that point.
< 1565536339 565197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the sort.Slice() variant is a bit too verbose.
< 1565536461 987153 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://go.googlesource.com/proposal/+/master/design/go2draft-generics-overview.md  https://go.googlesource.com/proposal/+/master/design/go2draft-contracts.md
< 1565536463 546235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the sort.Slice() variant is also not overly type-safe, I can pass anything for 'ps' and get a runtime error if it's not a slice. This is alleviated by the fact that ps is repeated in the comparison function. On the downside, ps is repeated in the comparison function.)
< 1565536617 36157 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like any of those either, but I think I've used sort.Sort(sort.IntSlice(ps)) generally.
< 1565536651 642733 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565536782 206705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy that  func SortSlice(data []T, less func(x, y T) bool)  is one of the motivating examples in the first document :)
< 1565536844 181857 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I picked sort.Sort(sort.IntSlice(ps)) so that it'd look consistent with a sort.Sort(foo.OtherKindOfSlice(qs)) call nearby.
< 1565536868 688758 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess I could've added a Sort() convenience method in OtherKindOfSlice too.)
< 1565536905 591062 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565536965 751048 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1565536982 87956 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565537055 894095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it that C provides sort() and bsearch() but no merging function.
< 1565537115 693789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which I guess is why Go does the same.)
< 1565540231 193895 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.71 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565540848 506555 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.71 QUIT :Quit: flushed
< 1565541041 910706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OUCH. primes := []int{2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2147483647}
< 1565541204 254168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from the go language specification)
> 1565541225 992344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PAX16 CPU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65449 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+888) 10Created page with "The '''PAX16''' computer, is a computer that runs using the PAX processor, made by  [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. The PAX processor uses an esolang called..."
> 1565541238 654020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PAX16 CPU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65450&oldid=65449 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-2) 10/* Specifics */
< 1565543205 595362 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vojevdycnqawhqri JOIN :#esoteric
> 1565543398 561429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65451&oldid=64612 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+381) 10
> 1565543560 202967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65452&oldid=65451 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Html/Javascript Simplified */
< 1565543881 686870 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`factor 2147483647
< 1565543884 513634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483647: 2147483647
< 1565543886 494657 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checks out.
< 1565543900 910242 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I completely skipped over the 9.
< 1565543957 341598 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know Karsten Koch's Blue Valley was a module
< 1565544232 102415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah I do recognize that particular Mersenne prime :)
< 1565547031 233995 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565547394 634977 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.71 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565547716 852384 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my idea of monads in JavaScript? I have just made one mistake, which is, that if you write "return" without writing "return yield" then it is necessary to define the value of the return, such as by writing:  listMonad.return=x=>[x];  If you write "return yield" then it does not need that. (If you want it to use the .return function anyways, then you can add parentheses.)
< 1565547989 123435 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like it
< 1565548007 254236 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of monads how about delimited continuations
< 1565548040 119470 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we don't need to write in do notation
< 1565548996 750573 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you could use delimited continuations
< 1565549410 665019 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, one of the points of the idea I wrote is that you can capture a state that you can then rewind later.
< 1565549473 519821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is not shown in the example I provided)
< 1565551975 181473 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: inside we both know what's been going on, we know the game and we're gonna play it
< 1565552400 67494 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565553001 248354 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1565553459 71481 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, do you know if there is a MIME type for bbcode?
< 1565553572 817712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It would be helpful if you want to integrate NNTP with some web forum software. I have also seen suggested to use Markdown; this has some advantages, such as easier to read as plain text if you do not have a Markdown renderer, and also there is a MIME type for Markdown defined; however, a lot of web forum software is not using Markdown.)
< 1565554346 129323 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.71 QUIT :Quit: took a pill
< 1565554451 257660 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565554659 668578 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565554662 371723 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1565554803 775917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-42.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565556129 605307 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vojevdycnqawhqri QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565556675 573580 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, more small things... go has no min() and max() functions for integers either.
< 1565557178 761526 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Maybe another odd omission somehow copied over from C? 
< 1565557442 552512 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565558275 560374 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565559108 622296 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwwrgvyzvopfiiry JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565559677 742025 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1565560330 509596 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1565564411 765388 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565565735 495572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-42.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1565569145 419288 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1565574235 857027 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwwrgvyzvopfiiry QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1565577302 832680 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565577391 959037 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ede9:f667:a65d:8a2c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1565578800 929071 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1565578898 658290 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565583254 556481 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion is that unusenet: URIs should be used to reference a article on Usenet and Unusenet. But, as far as I know, no software implements it.
< 1565585158 707513 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that Funge-98 should include the specification for in case you do not have a unique identification for your implementation, to define a handprint value specific for that use (perhaps zero).
< 1565585194 726574 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never heard of Unusenet before
< 1565585363 971149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It is not well known, but, I invented Unusenet. It is a format for newsgroup hierarchy names which are not part of Usenet, and the specification also mentions a few other things (although the stuff other than the newsgroup hierarchy names is a optional specification).
< 1565585393 4274 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any newsgroup name that begins with the two letters "un" followed by one or more digits and then a dot, is Unusenet.
< 1565586593 444663 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also starting to write a document for using Glk with Befunge 98.
< 1565592981 784741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( I can't type "buf". It almost always comes out as "bug" at first. )
> 1565593205 196122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07FAKE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65453 5* 03Argv0 5* (+3048) 10Creation of the page
> 1565593382 924563 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65454&oldid=65382 5* 03Argv0 5* (+11) 10Added FAKE
> 1565593992 588266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65455&oldid=65441 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+748) 10/* Command Glossary */
< 1565595253 520775 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you wish to add a NNTP which isn't Usenet, please use Unusenet to assign the newsgroup name rather than assigning it arbitrarily, if possible.)
< 1565595410 679032 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565595452 476363 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: If only all my bugs were so kind as to identify themselves like that.
< 1565595494 541806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What if it's a number of digits larger than the number of atoms in the universe?
< 1565595666 6952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Btw, I like some aspects of Go. The slices are pretty neat. And I may also somewhat like the receiver style OO.
< 1565595819 729190 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I miss generics and overloaded operators (bignum code looks so ugly...)
< 1565596250 630596 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565596427 55989 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565596998 402561 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are lots of nice things about Go.
< 1565597036 271311 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether to prefer "x.f(y)" over "f(x, y)"
< 1565597057 445248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main benefit is that f goes in a special namespace rather than the global one.
< 1565597074 707347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you have function overloading those are pretty different.
< 1565597809 654383 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1565598004 448701 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565598978 526180 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565598996 632761 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1565598996 844526 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest
< 1565599359 670119 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1565599567 591145 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565599587 592592 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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< 1565600177 44211 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565600255 44160 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565600502 44049 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565600751 951319 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565601399 660129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. My smooth number approximator in Go works.
< 1565602449 862262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in the end I did not use the goroutines-as-generators idea, the overhead was way too big for what I intended to do
< 1565602449 948321 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1565602558 503759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you said something about not caring about overhead.
< 1565602587 882803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well millions of goroutines with 2k stack space each...
< 1565602594 351281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I ran out of memory
< 1565602612 290741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I tend to care about that.
< 1565602738 329348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://paste.debian.net/1095429/ if you're curious (no particular reason why you should be)
< 1565602970 588005 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565603089 903166 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565603145 361669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about as fast as my Haskell code but it uses far less memory (the comparison is unfair though; the Haskell code does a lot of implicit bookkeeping for producing a lazy list of smooth numbers in increasing order, whereas the Go code embraces mutability instead for a similar effect.)
< 1565603245 365780 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, I know, I still have to do a better search
< 1565603248 137310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: For fun, 11111111111111111051649690525458095629710973775872 is a decent 103-smooth lower approximation of 10^50/9.
< 1565603266 313827 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ try 11111111111111111051649690525458095629710973775872x
< 1565603275 577127 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a _lower_ approximation
< 1565603276 858533 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1565603299 417657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also, I'll probably spread this task in forums other than #esoteric, because it's a nice one
< 1565603305 301874 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/task/challenge
< 1565603412 136064 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The scientist from https://www.xkcd.com/585/ return, in https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4066 of all places
< 1565603416 948170 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ist/ists/
< 1565603438 368511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this made a surprisingly nice target for learning some Go basics.
< 1565603628 683585 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: are you writing the search program such that it is parallel over multiple cpu cores, or will be in a future version?
< 1565603701 751716 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah
< 1565603739 897969 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
< 1565603740 993407 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need to be multi-threaded for that, you can split the search space and run multiple processes, possibly mmapping a common read-only table
< 1565603750 243768 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565603777 504568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There already is a top-level loop that re-runs the same kind of search with slightly different parameters.
< 1565603838 541538 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right, but in parallel or only in sequence?
< 1565603846 488783 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's in parallel, then I assume it uses multiple cpu cores
< 1565603855 840213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In sequence, and I'm not inclined to change that.
< 1565603861 969414 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you're like running it on a GPU or multiple hosts or something)
< 1565603867 286903 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565603887 8690 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably run multiple in parallel, because the algorithm I'm using is eash to modify to do that
< 1565603891 99972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it would be ridiculously easy, at least locally (just spawn a "goroutine" for each task).
< 1565603960 782034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program is chugging away at 140% CPU usage actually. (Parallel GC, I guess.)
< 1565604003 218279 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1565604017 780671 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you're garbage-collecting? ok
< 1565604022 814941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go is. But honestly I don't expect to see any improvement.
< 1565604035 674485 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it doesn't know that it doesn't need to gc
< 1565604042 665402 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something
< 1565604088 877397 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the 80 minutes that this program is running, it has found 11111111111111111051649690525458095629710973775872 36 times and 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875 4 times. The Haskell version has found 11111111111111111215673466122483207680856045806875 about 80 times.)
< 1565604113 436134 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Using way more CPU time, I think I was up to 19 hours.)
< 1565604146 477882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It does need GC actually... plenty of fresh big nums are produced and most of them are discarded
< 1565604236 287322 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1565604317 587830 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565604354 220484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(finding the same result over and over indicates that the approach is hitting its limit. So /probably/ we either have an optimum or the optimum is hard to find (there are such hard-to-find smooth numbers, but explaining what they are would give away my approach))
< 1565604509 388513 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: my current approach searches such solutions that don't have many large prime factors, and it can actually exhaust those and finds every solution exactly once. but what "not too many large prime factors" means depends on how fast I'll make the program, so I can cover a larger space if I make the program faster
< 1565604707 586966 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1565604711 270607 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been considering other ways to search, but I haven't considered any that finds the same solution multiple times, except from where I restart the program with different parameters
< 1565604743 546277 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565604827 806649 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did consider searches that miss some unlucky solutions though
< 1565604843 864657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlucky in ways other than having more than a few large prime factors
< 1565605554 165110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm let's give 10^200/9 a try. How bad could it be?
< 1565605650 952239 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :u
< 1565605706 918347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just want to see whether this also finds the same solutions over and over again.)
< 1565608604 524289 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1565609858 513513 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565610172 481030 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1565610860 759452 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1565611132 629079 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1565611305 364841 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Letters++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65456 5* 03Saka 5* (+2675) 10Created page with "'''NOTE: WORK IN PROGRESS PAGE. WILL IMPROVE AS TIME GOES ON... hopefully...'''
'''Letters++''' is an esolang created by [[User:Saka]], that is made of, as the name sugges..." < 1565611789 366132 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1565611847 16419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Letters++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65457&oldid=65456 5* 03Saka 5* (+69) 10 < 1565612021 872146 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbxzcosfgyghpotk QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565612042 419781 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmosjqvtvuafuwpb JOIN :#esoteric < 1565612058 365787 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565612069 901519 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565612427 944159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: http://paste.debian.net/1095448/ is where the program is after 2 hours, and it has not repeated itself (much) yet. < 1565612468 580159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for 10^200/9) < 1565612859 912506 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565612889 413754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably stop bragging about this. < 1565612925 213131 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: why does that paste have a row of ones? < 1565612963 901163 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565612965 35060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: because that's how I compare to the target number < 1565612970 304511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :put it in the middle :) < 1565612976 33027 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1565613002 585391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I instead print their difference in exponential format < 1565613090 33919 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "bestprod=11111111111111158344848599503479968356777700860000, diff=4.723E+34," and there's more after that line that tell about where it is in the search space > 1565613580 310790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser133714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65458 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+11) 10oof < 1565615631 901098 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565616375 720059 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make the next version print the full factorization < 1565617629 600835 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565617989 603367 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1565618139 55857 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1565618535 595279 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565619139 601973 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565619279 901138 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565619771 902796 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565619985 912033 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bshomlceuyowlofe JOIN :#esoteric < 1565620068 458794 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565620114 93078 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forced Fruition is from the Lorwyn set? that makes so much sense actually. I thought it was an older card than that, but it really suits Lorwyn's mood < 1565620335 491582 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565620369 519424 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565620954 539380 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1565620980 437371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Powder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65459&oldid=60758 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+97) 10/* Documentation */ < 1565620995 983035 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1565621042 226326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Powder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65460&oldid=65459 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+21) 10Typo > 1565621095 784369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Powder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65461&oldid=65460 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-34) 10/* Documentation */ < 1565621259 946442 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565621357 900897 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1565621684 387024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65462&oldid=65390 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+701) 10Re: A language defined by its implementation > 1565621726 203582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65463&oldid=65462 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+22) 10/* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */ < 1565621919 563716 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565621967 904088 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565621971 604252 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Objective-C really worthwhile to learn? I've noticed that it's just C, with some salt < 1565622015 885851 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im not trying to go into IOS development, I just wanted to learn a new language < 1565622050 948033 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565622175 268748 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565622221 547820 :ARCUN!b96c8154@185.108.129.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565622690 145041 :ARCUN!b96c8154@185.108.129.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've realized that almost all programs in c, if the headingovernment is replaced with "#import ", it will most likely result in the same function. < 1565622724 882828 :ARCUN!b96c8154@185.108.129.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactly was Apple thinking when they made a C copy? < 1565622760 914061 :ARCUN!b96c8154@185.108.129.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heading* < 1565622809 926674 :ARCUN!b96c8154@185.108.129.84 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565623437 947922 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565623633 617338 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565623860 350536 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565623871 758496 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1565623872 135364 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest < 1565624127 47096 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565624213 215235 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565624288 600494 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565624364 829659 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were probably thinking "I don't really want to write Java or C++" < 1565624545 269318 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn rust < 1565624564 802621 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust is a bad language < 1565624566 230481 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont use it < 1565624572 754218 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so < 1565624684 408131 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot. i like that in a language. < 1565624761 745847 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it is an awesome low-level language to write in. we wrote a small OS in university and had a way more comfortable environment than the C people < 1565624950 307732 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you just redefine panic! and get runtime errors shown with filename and line number. that would be impossible to do in C if you use any third party library < 1565624961 756105 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :including stdlib < 1565625069 334117 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, writing ones own free is so nice since you don't need anybookkeeping for how many memory you need to free at a given location < 1565625539 652705 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565625563 199991 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565626195 922293 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565626214 314530 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The number of digits after "un" in Unusenet won't be larger than the number of atoms in the universe, because, the number indicated after the letters "un" is either zero or the number of components in a domain name. < 1565626396 221508 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565626397 151316 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565626952 170473 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565627058 366451 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565627558 367510 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565628048 48087 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565628683 586355 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1565630353 716099 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65464&oldid=63754 5* 03Gamer 5* (-39) 10 < 1565630459 404597 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565630673 831680 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1565631079 77664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Compressed Malbolge14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65465 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+600) 10Created page with "Compressed Malbolge, made by [[User:Palaiologos]] in 2019, is a compressed variant for [[malbolge unshackled]], designed to fit my large blobs inside [https://codegolf.stackex..." > 1565631107 345825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Compressed Malbolge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65466&oldid=65465 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+0) 10 > 1565631661 965726 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65467&oldid=65454 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+26) 10Add Compressed Malbolge < 1565631870 559301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( 648000 parsec = 0 km? ) < 1565632237 609804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did they mean by "Apple made a C copy"? Swift? Because if this is about Objective C, Apple didn't create the language... they endorsed it (probably the NeXT folks had some influence). < 1565632370 385357 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565632586 236386 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a lot of objc’s weirdness is because it was designed as a *strict* superset of C < 1565636107 629826 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565636906 777982 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565636932 560651 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565637520 752194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? moo < 1565637521 756440 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moo is the sound made by a cow as it freezes. > 1565638782 291772 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65468&oldid=65463 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */ > 1565639117 450097 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65469&oldid=65439 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+198) 10 < 1565640031 193501 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565640719 548312 :andrewtheircer!5d560674@93-86-6-116.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1565640723 705327 :andrewtheircer!5d560674@93-86-6-116.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1565640761 601911 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1565640794 963247 :andrewtheircer!5d560674@93-86-6-116.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi to you < 1565640923 490736 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565641105 466793 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565641119 752755 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1565641140 263918 :andrewtheircer!5d560674@93-86-6-116.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello lord < 1565641778 534984 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1565642743 86535 :andrewtheircer!5d560674@93-86-6-116.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565642872 901992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zzo38mtg < 1565642873 910147 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt < 1565642879 171501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zzo38card < 1565642880 256545 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38cards are at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt < 1565642884 531187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those seem redundant < 1565642892 714992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forget zzo38mtg < 1565642895 269798 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget what? < 1565642950 744812 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565643119 206583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forget horn < 1565643120 748086 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget what? < 1565645156 461854 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565645388 554822 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1565645592 325139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65470&oldid=65469 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+212) 10 < 1565648485 762373 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565648669 383751 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565649792 648240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-186.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1565650133 254081 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565652970 134494 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bshomlceuyowlofe QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565653028 34414 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnkoguuypbpkfmnl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565659702 214247 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565662688 631982 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565665570 224310 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnkoguuypbpkfmnl QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565669361 238100 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565669592 677342 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565671435 73072 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565671609 202449 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565671828 221976 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1565672611 820700 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65471&oldid=65455 5* 03A 5* (+36) 10/* Extended command glossary */ Invented shorter name < 1565674557 854105 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565675185 823862 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1565676363 763265 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565684328 675646 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565684416 204930 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565685145 295720 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-173-73-232.range86-173.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1565689436 193708 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565696284 193239 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565702976 208262 :atriq!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1565703034 686641 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565703304 836730 :atriq!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org NICK :Taneb < 1565703598 865344 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1565703885 662561 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello++++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65472&oldid=56982 5* 03Gamer 5* (+32) 10 > 1565703904 465481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello++++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65473&oldid=65472 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Interpreters */ < 1565705936 938640 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565705964 236566 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565706830 913852 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xacjqvmqbssnrdij JOIN :#esoteric < 1565708062 118657 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565708093 932891 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565708136 577157 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good afternoon. < 1565708151 197092 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've made another esolang. < 1565708152 841420 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, cpressey < 1565708157 901700 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your new esolang. < 1565708161 431535 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1565708162 53714 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/cpressey/2e0cc1b07b716a7793ba2d674fa8bee9 < 1565708172 949548 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a second-order concatenative language. < 1565708200 213261 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably not Turing-complete. < 1565708254 201773 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565708594 938189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so the type is ([Int] -> [Int]) -> ([Int] -> [Int])? < 1565708609 786860 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is trying to get the gist without reading the whole thing < 1565708671 412717 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: That's correct (unbounded Int to be clear) < 1565708725 382354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let i = (.) (1:); s = (.) (\(a:b:ss) -> (a-b):ss) in (s . s . i) id [] < 1565708727 874524 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: :3:28-48: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda < 1565708730 942497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let i = (.) (1:); s = (.) (\(a:b:ss) -> (a-b):ss) in (s . i . i) id [] < 1565708733 663844 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0] < 1565708750 97156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that'd be "iis") < 1565709252 637988 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565709331 383472 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (maxBound :: Int) < 1565709333 730997 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9223372036854775807 < 1565709377 637108 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is this a release or merely an escape? < 1565709387 868383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so... http://paste.debian.net/1095634/ ? < 1565709513 32851 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't understand. why wouldn't second order functions be enough for turing-completeness? you can just have second order functions that implement a while loop. < 1565709587 398117 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you want the second order to be a concatenative language too < 1565709664 794960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: same code, a few more type signatures: http://paste.debian.net/1095635/ < 1565709686 473384 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: could you perhaps translate Blindfolded Arithmetic into such a thing? each ordinary instruction of Blindfolded arithmetic is a plain function that treats a fixed-size top part of the stack as the register file, and you need a single second order function to turn the whole thing into a loop < 1565709696 308996 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to change the exit condition, but that isn't much of a problem < 1565709757 970084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I missed the pop operation. < 1565709815 925087 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Your code looks not dissimilar to mine < 1565709838 226104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I got the while wrong. Hmm. < 1565709876 631931 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: The last few paragraphs try to talk about why even that is difficult (how do you select the instruction, if all you have are strictly-singly-nested loops?) < 1565709881 369652 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and note that you don't even need the hard part of Blindfolded arithmetic, because you can just have built-in conditinoal functions < 1565709904 747538 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so here's another version: http://paste.debian.net/1095636/ < 1565709910 252576 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's the part that doesn't matter here, because you can have value conditional (not code conditional) instructions built into your language as primitives < 1565709982 252657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you translate an ordinary program to an explicit instruction pointer and a big loop that blindly loops around all instructions of the original program, but only stores the results of those instructions if the program counter points to that particular instruction < 1565709986 271195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: funny how much clearer that makes the language to my brain :P < 1565710010 181033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (of course the point isn't so much the code itself as the exercise of writing it) < 1565710016 211896 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the program counter points to somewhere else, you compute the result and ignore it. it's inefficient, but works. < 1565710123 529373 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Built-in conditionals might work, but seem a bit like cheating. < 1565710132 980148 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, I must be off. A la prochaine. < 1565710134 187504 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1565710172 579015 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you don't want built-in conditionals, then you have to look at how you can program Blindfolded arithmetic. < 1565710380 972697 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565713337 531885 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-173-73-232.range86-173.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: john_metcalf < 1565714346 204926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565715795 658326 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1565718521 658407 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Redwolf10105 5* 10New user account > 1565718644 19383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65474&oldid=65418 5* 03Redwolf10105 5* (+161) 10/* Introductions */ > 1565721394 685002 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bootstrapping14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65475 5* 03Lucas 5* (+23) 10Redirecting to [[Bootstrap]] > 1565721636 639090 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bootstrap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65476&oldid=61778 5* 03Lucas 5* (+66) 10Link to [[Wikipedia:C (programming language)|C at Wikipedia]] < 1565721969 583907 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565722003 783192 :user24!~user24@p4FCA30BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1565722190 933645 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65477&oldid=57100 5* 03Lucas 5* (+4) 10Link to [[bootstrap]] > 1565722212 875967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MUMON14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65478&oldid=12083 5* 03Lucas 5* (+4) 10Link to [[bootstrap]] > 1565722322 995567 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pipe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65479 5* 03Redwolf10105 5* (+5141) 10Created page with "Pipe is a language designed by Programming Puzzles and Code-Golf user RedwolfPrograms. Nonnegative integers can be stored either in a stack or in a value known as the pipe. Pu..." < 1565723000 891517 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xacjqvmqbssnrdij QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565724005 409848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cpressey http://paste.debian.net/1095661/ has an example of a tag system in Wagon. (This generalizes to arbitrary tag systems.) It uses two nested loops. It may be possible to get away with a single loop, actually. < 1565724005 545963 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. > 1565724941 509133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CrispyPin 5* 10New user account < 1565725128 519398 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565725344 243690 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric > 1565725402 200563 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65480&oldid=65474 5* 03CrispyPin 5* (+293) 10 < 1565726887 976962 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`smlist < 1565726890 723121 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale < 1565727497 993639 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1565727527 187004 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565727735 646734 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njksjacxabdrgdna JOIN :#esoteric < 1565727814 843866 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565729579 840585 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565729672 526065 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1565734126 193223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565734205 655275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565736162 755371 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cpressey One more update for Wagon, now with an actual translation from tag systems and more comments: http://paste.debian.net/1095671/ < 1565736162 918938 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1565737478 597952 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1565741631 347605 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1565742352 52950 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1565742583 122369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65481&oldid=65468 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+414) 10 > 1565742706 758327 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65482&oldid=65481 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+320) 10/* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */ < 1565743173 828272 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565743815 549415 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565743843 894794 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know how I can aquire an original Commodore 64? < 1565743901 488048 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you're looking for it on the cheap? < 1565743915 461165 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1565743935 686763 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really sure... ebay is probably not your best bet for that... not sure what is < 1565743954 648804 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like it's an extremely rare machine, though < 1565744000 753615 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might ask cpressey. I bet he would know, as he already has one < 1565744161 893597 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1565746350 192214 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65483&oldid=63966 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-3) 10fixing the code in hello world < 1565746639 882076 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565747516 189268 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njksjacxabdrgdna QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1565750420 910090 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65484&oldid=63614 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+15) 10 > 1565750438 771268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65485&oldid=65484 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-15) 10Undo revision 65484 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]]) > 1565750464 524953 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65486&oldid=65485 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+23) 10 > 1565750475 107966 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65487&oldid=65486 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10 > 1565750600 631242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65488&oldid=65483 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+6) 10much better, i guess? > 1565750702 404162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65489&oldid=65488 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+13) 10/* Discussions */ < 1565750958 239665 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1565751297 916538 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65490&oldid=65452 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10/* Lua */ < 1565752110 534745 :laerling!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in < 1565752127 711985 :laerling!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric > 1565752265 95269 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65491&oldid=65487 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+43) 10 > 1565752343 965797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65492&oldid=65489 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+43) 10 < 1565758206 149154 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565758234 193099 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565766709 499131 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565766730 978593 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:55c0:c488:2e00:75f6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565768462 281728 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565768652 56477 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565768887 885850 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565769103 347766 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565769382 669693 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565769502 722302 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? concurrency < 1565769504 156990 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :concurrency? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565769738 716764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :controversial currency? < 1565769747 112639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1565769748 158713 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is surprising. < 1565769762 575031 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have guess that it's the categorical dual of ncurrency. < 1565769791 305460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's too categorical for me this early in the morning < 1565769840 556601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp daul < 1565769844 127134 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565769845 5620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp dual < 1565769849 719018 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :block device:Block devices are a concession made in Unix to make raw hard disks and magnetic tape have a similar interface to regular files and terminals. Since magnetic tapes can't write individual bytes, only entire blocks, the interface isn't exactly the same, thus the dreaded dd obs= option was born. \ comonad:Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into. \ elrond:Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Ma < 1565769886 557649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah I didn't expect "individual". < 1565770060 667097 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the password of the month reminds me of a situation i had during apprenticeship. i needed to decide for a password and somebody said "i am going to type anything" and i said "brilliant. out new password will be 'anything'" < 1565770061 519457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 grwp dual < 1565770062 764322 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3:he Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves. \ nundrum:A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless. \ palindrome:A palindrome is a word that remains the same if you take it to the mirror dimension, and then take each individual letter back to the normal dimension separately. \ sober space:Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them. < 1565770077 264781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1565770077 912852 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3/3: \ splay:Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume. < 1565770272 302013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Do you not even like adjunctions? < 1565770344 758942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? adjunction < 1565770345 919280 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjunction? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565770387 828821 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? adjoint < 1565770388 855154 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjoint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565770409 491559 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp adjunction < 1565770410 484199 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565770412 766384 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp adjoint < 1565770413 821114 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565770436 812194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 grWp universal < 1565770438 15780 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:pikachu:Pikachu is a universal quantifier for Chu spaces. \ universal property:Universal properties are the best. < 1565770445 678698 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki has a link to the IRC channel, which contains its own wiki < 1565770562 783551 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would the existential quantifier for Chu spaces be? < 1565770671 463576 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gesundheit. Because it's a witness to a Chu. < 1565770681 565493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll show myself out < 1565770733 400187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those is a b_jonaswisdom too < 1565770739 517577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dome is full of them < 1565770750 733781 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565770828 354804 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it's //block device// < 1565770834 943276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits block device < 1565770836 744854 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonäs < 1565770888 453480 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565771846 766881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1565772245 344420 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I read your writeup about error handling. The thing it reminded me the most of, I guess, is Haskell's Data.Either, especially how can be used as a monad, to make it "flat". < 1565772361 801769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: did you nudge cpressey about my Wagon efforts? ;-) < 1565772511 748299 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Ah yes it did. My fault for not knowing how my IRC client works. < 1565772624 404925 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Very cool. I'll have to test it out when I get a moment. < 1565772750 735191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, though I feel like monads don't quite deliver on their promise for this sort of thing. < 1565772760 418912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example monad transformers are a mess. < 1565772824 176019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell functions also don't have an implicit place for "return" to be lexically bound to like e.g. C functions. < 1565772838 41105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead it behaves dynamically bound like exceptions. < 1565773091 132978 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brow furrows* I think you want "return" to be dynamically bound, otherwise, you can only call the function from one place? I must be misunderstanding you. < 1565773145 966874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess the thing I'm talking about is something in between. < 1565773146 692279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're in a bind and I don't know what it is < 1565773159 711764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has to do with a thing I haven't figured out yet. < 1565773182 311262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know what you mean by "dynamically bound" here) < 1565773187 860652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is: When you see the keyword "return", you can look at the program statically and figure out where it'll jump to. < 1565773191 690905 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Quit: This page is intentionally left blank. < 1565773213 239668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the compiler can do it. < 1565773216 642853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can? < 1565773240 374072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you? < 1565773249 465894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'return' is as dynamic as you get in C... the function could be called from anywhere. < 1565773261 13623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I just mean you can see which block it returns from. < 1565773267 663226 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1565773279 177032 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int foo() { if (...) return 0; ... } -- you can tell that that return returns from foo. < 1565773288 228446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas "Left 0" could be going anywhere. < 1565773297 216542 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565773312 661724 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this isn't really fair to say, though. < 1565773391 447307 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left 0 >> ... will end up inside ... "next", for some value of "next". < 1565773409 513091 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You can find the set of callpoints it can potentially return to, and you could, for instance, insist that some condition pertains at all those points... this is sometimes called having an effect system. < 1565773434 454056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really entirely different from 'return' in C. < 1565773454 396515 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which block it returns *from* should be... lexical? < 1565773468 945467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to imagine a language in which it is not < 1565773477 796728 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it's pretty different, but they were presented as similar? < 1565773483 20669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: INTERCAL, I suppose < 1565773511 486426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the similarity where you can write: "foo = either id id $ do { ...; when p (Left x); ... }" to implement early exit. < 1565773514 825528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and maybe aspect-oriented programming as a paradigm? I don't know enough about that. < 1565773575 724798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think the more direct analogy is maybe delimited continuations. < 1565773581 329624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but arguably even if you don't know where you're coming from and where you'll go next, all imperative programming languages have a notion of "here, right now") < 1565773633 142576 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dear god, an aspect that can splice in a return statement... < 1565773784 654916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. I should figure out all my half-coherent language ideas. < 1565773804 308485 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565773831 350328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: better you than us ;-) < 1565773862 561991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just type them all into the channel and have you figure them out for me. < 1565773942 265487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was what you were doing already. < 1565773979 510371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only occasionally. < 1565773986 838067 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1565775397 66543 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565775753 205449 :WhoaNelly!~WhoaNelli@ip68-96-186-72.lv.lv.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565775758 593558 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, in current languages you can do that only by explicit call-ec objects or similar. but I can imagine a language where some of those keywords (return, next/last/redo/retry) use an implicit lexical variable and can refer to the outer named function where the block/lambda was created < 1565775799 423391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since I mostly program in a goto-less style, this doesn't come up often < 1565775901 192071 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd also need loop labels and goto labels to generate exit variables that can be bound by closures even if they go to an outer function, but at that point they become full call/cc continuations, because you can jump to them even after the block that contains them has exited < 1565775915 427733 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that may be the main reason why that's not usually implemented\ < 1565776074 860528 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine this would most likely happen in a golf language, since they don't care too much about an efficient runtime, they might mix all sorts of paradigms and primitives that you rarely use but always add a lot of overhead to the interpreter, so eg. many slot assignments are always backtrackable just in case you use prolog-style backtracking, eve < 1565776075 359746 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rything can be pointed to by weak references, every number could contain a symbolic formula, you have full call/cc everywhere, etc < 1565776102 644614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: This is related to the things we talked about a while ago. < 1565776134 546072 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Have you ever worked out how to code a conventional try/except-type exception handler in continuation-passing style, as an exercise? < 1565776177 384751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a good idea of how it'd go? < 1565776193 13230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not done it. < 1565776582 842207 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, you have a regular continuation and an exception continuation. Every time you try, you extend the exception continuation. Every time you throw, you continue on the exception continuation instead of the regular one. < 1565776721 934479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sure, that thing. < 1565776734 795944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how JavaScript people write their programs by hand anyway. < 1565776775 524518 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably this is equivalent to the Either thing? < 1565776800 434244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... -> (success -> r) -> (failure -> r) -> r" < 1565776820 63664 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... -> (Either success failure -> r) -> r" < 1565776855 86143 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which you can further turn into "... -> Either success failure" if you're using r parametrically. < 1565776988 336198 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can compare it to a lot of things, I was thinking of it as more of a good place to start thinking about: how would you make this better? (You seem to want something better.) < 1565777049 409221 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think exceptions are probably a bad idea in the first place, so I'm not sure why you'd start there. < 1565777068 342567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess writing it by hand is more explicit than exceptions, at least. < 1565777088 696863 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're still writing the moral equivalent of "try" and "throw", aren't you? < 1565777128 773392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the moral value of "try" and "throw" is. < 1565777141 284747 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main goal should be something where it's as easy as possible to read the code and see how control flow can happen. < 1565777167 227419 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have code that can signal an error. You have code that can handle an error. Those are the moral values of "throw" and "try" respectively. < 1565777181 125942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have those, well. < 1565777183 145264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you tell whether code can signal an error? < 1565777205 191078 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: be more specific, what things that who talked about a while ago? < 1565777211 249146 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't tell if code has encountered an error or not, you've got worse problems than this! < 1565777216 784960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Geo and that sort of thing. < 1565777246 54317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the exception answer is "based on types" (checked exceptions) or "anything can signal an error at any time" (unchecked exceptions). < 1565777254 618441 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, not an either. you want to non-local exit through all the stack frames that don't catch exceptions < 1565777269 302765 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd have a global variable that stores the continuation where you have to jump when you throw < 1565777286 515178 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: as I said, I think you can compare it to a lot of things :) < 1565777287 610044 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a try statement sets that global variable but saves its old value < 1565777301 213256 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it was very similar though :) < 1565777412 537240 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forcing it all into Either is like forcing all your non-local exits into local-exits-and-always-checking-the-exit-code < 1565777631 989374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like if your error handling system is made of indirect jumps it's already too complicated, or something. < 1565777637 359927 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using Either is a lot more like shell programming where you say (echo 'hi' && touch foo && cat foo) || echo 'badness' < 1565777668 683155 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that this only works well if you have a dynamic-unwind that you can use to run destructors as the stack is rolled off, otherwise you have to rewrite all destructors (and all python-with statement) into a try < 1565777673 390785 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a try-finally < 1565777694 852956 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wait, how is geo relevant for that? < 1565777710 890999 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yeah, you have to weave destructors into your exception continuation too < 1565777725 336853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, geo doesn't allow jumping out from inside a lambda block < 1565777736 957590 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooc, what's Geo? < 1565777746 356931 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't even if it implemented lambdas < 1565777763 234654 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :geo only allows you to break to the innermost block, and a function would count as such an innermost block < 1565777782 752088 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did we talk about a hypothetical extension that would allow jumping out farther with block labels? hmm < 1565777789 628868 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may have happened, I'll have to look at the logs < 1565777813 102657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: one of the old toy languages that I once birthed into existence but now I'm ashemed of the details and my excuse is that I was young < 1565777816 153907 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the wiki < 1565777817 911865 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo < 1565777823 876630 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one is scan < 1565777829 150543 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: thx < 1565777833 416141 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a third one that's lost < 1565777846 386674 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a fourth one which is called psz < 1565777853 594304 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean Geo, just the things I was talking about when we were talking about Geo. < 1565777856 933878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1565777863 748034 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, it's possible < 1565777874 820134 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ruby would be particularly well suited for this < 1565777882 763241 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least old ruby, before 1.9 came along < 1565777883 374446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Ruby solution is terrible. < 1565777895 969500 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole proc vs. lambda thing is such a mess. < 1565777911 766838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, does Ruby implement function return with exceptions? < 1565777913 658692 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I agree, ruby is terrible < 1565778300 673436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should go to sleep. < 1565778314 81920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the future I should ask about one of the big things I'm trying to figure out. < 1565778364 999706 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gl with that < 1565778384 638663 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to go to sleep right now but sadly it is not going to sleep time here < 1565778395 398135 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even being asleep time < 1565778592 849820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time Taneb < 1565778600 912521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1565778604 36349 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Wed Aug 14 03:30:01 2019 < 1565778608 578318 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:30 < 1565778618 86733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh. It's way past going to sleep time. < 1565778624 170569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can't go to sleep now. < 1565778633 339746 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should retroactively be asleep < 1565778679 688143 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. > 1565779106 856914 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drive-In Window14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65493&oldid=61623 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+0) 10/* Pre-program delcarations */ < 1565779164 348738 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datei < 1565779164 936924 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-14 10:39:24.695076581 +0000 UTC August 14 Wednesday 2019-W33-3 < 1565779177 336427 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not sleep time, it's work time < 1565779433 332419 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a function, I would like to get a list of all exceptions that could possibly be raised by that function, and from where, and (ideally) for what reasons. You could devise a static analysis that does this. It'd be more of an analysis tool than a language feature though. < 1565779556 743402 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's very often all exceptions, if the function takes a callback < 1565779590 820938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :potentially minus a few < 1565779603 699721 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it calls a virtual method or otherwise does some dynamic call where you can't determine the target of the call statically > 1565779658 489182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65494&oldid=65477 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (-4) 10Undo revision 65477 by [[Special:Contributions/Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]): the word's being used here in a slightly different sense to in the linked article, so linking it is here probably more confusing than useful at the moment > 1565779796 716576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bootstrap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65495&oldid=65476 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+10) 10people generally dislike unmarked external/cross-namespace links here; technically the link is marked by being a slightly different shade of blue, but it's a clue that most people miss < 1565779910 241227 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I wouldn't expect to get very useful results when running it on foldl... < 1565779978 554482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could still do something like: exceptions thrown by arguments + exceptions found by static analysis - exceptions handled < 1565780018 585193 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not just arguments < 1565780019 515721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the first term is treated as symbolic. < 1565780102 322211 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565780303 306962 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565781078 275258 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565781157 397533 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, not just arguments, anything that you determine you can't statically analyze (but you can report those callsites too). Vaguely interested now, looking at if there are any static analysis frameworks for Python. < 1565781179 370087 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's the ast module < 1565781408 996391 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, decorators < 1565781467 999797 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe someday < 1565781600 187467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://python-ast-explorer.com/ if anyone is interested in what its AST looks like presently. < 1565781764 808839 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rotating logo is oddly satisfying < 1565781813 24423 :mniip_!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1565781884 974062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... why does webGL not work ... oh, graphics driver update. hrm :) < 1565781902 212404 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 600 seconds < 1565781919 747047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to check whether http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius8.html still works :P < 1565782360 603846 :mniip_!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip NICK :mniip > 1565786066 64455 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Disan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65496&oldid=56724 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10Why, A, why did you make such this page.... > 1565786097 575713 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Is14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65497&oldid=56401 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10+CAT languages > 1565786125 372011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ParrBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65498&oldid=13826 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10Don't forget +CAT languages > 1565786572 989667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jumpback14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65499&oldid=43383 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10+CAT languages < 1565787904 84771 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-173-73-232.range86-173.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1565788282 190505 :WhoaNelly!~WhoaNelli@ip68-96-186-72.lv.lv.cox.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565789615 296806 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565789803 309178 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565791244 982083 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://catseye.tc/installation/PL-%7BGOTO%7D running in a web page at last, by the magic of the Haste compile < 1565791263 460594 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r < 1565793048 370106 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.182 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565793278 492293 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565793902 264411 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.182 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 > 1565794319 751202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Shakil t 5* 10New user account < 1565797251 442675 :Xunie!~Xunie@unaffiliated/xunie QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565797743 56035 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, ICFP contest results will be available during the long weekend < 1565797775 960005 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the long weekend" sounds like an event in the backstory of a post-apocalypting story < 1565797788 593781 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ever since the Long Weekend, we have never known peace" < 1565797866 464962 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565798053 299318 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565798096 994311 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1565798267 481421 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, I just call any weekend that is longer than 48 hours as long weekend. they last 49 hours, 72 hours, 73 hours, 96 hours, 97 hours, 120 hours, or even 144 hours. < 1565798331 887718 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1565798343 32552 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Saturday ends the week and Sunday begins a new week, I object to calling the unit as a whole a "weekend". < 1565798362 204334 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I object to weeks that begin on Sunday < 1565798380 537697 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :49 or 73 hours is only possible near --10-28, and 120 or 144 hours is only possible near --12-25 < 1565798413 14081 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: we use Monday as the start of the week, which makes more sense exactly because of this < 1565798470 409713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's okay then. < 1565798475 258648 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what's the significance of --10-28? < 1565798480 51621 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1565798489 676008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: dst switch < 1565798497 452767 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes < 1565798500 976576 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaeh, timezone offset switch < 1565798509 76834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: don't you miss some 24k - 1 variants? < 1565798519 692785 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Day of the Establishment of an Independent Czecho-Slovak State < 1565798533 252396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean things 71) < 1565798628 417082 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, those are possible too < 1565798682 667470 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :71 hours, and now 95 hours is possible too < 1565800024 822275 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint 8*0.0245 < 1565800025 460819 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.196 < 1565800048 3806 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dumb idea: IRC client that lets you write comments in the logs < 1565800065 809693 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That are displayed but not actually sent < 1565800084 233936 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: irssi already does that, with the /echo command < 1565800097 900300 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: aha < 1565800102 412873 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful in macros where you may want to print something other than what you send or receive < 1565800328 85023 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't end up in the log, though < 1565800365 191438 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on how you set up the log I think < 1565800368 657507 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some filtering options < 1565800385 372555 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also send invalid commands to the server if you want < 1565800408 535195 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1565800416 235900 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or messages to a channel that is invite-only and only you are joined < 1565800742 77536 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565800941 375161 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565801145 342007 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just want to write to a log you can PM yourself < 1565801334 6768 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565802498 598538 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565802805 912348 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmuaybuqerwffjpf JOIN :#esoteric < 1565803264 105325 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565803452 190728 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565803563 719511 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565803752 50557 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565805126 237961 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565805154 922899 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565805302 758702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565806735 319791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1175 < 1565806736 12542 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1175: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1565806926 187432 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565806954 158374 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1565807112 711697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65500&oldid=65482 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+345) 10 < 1565807553 570292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :o! < 1565808330 942121 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565810073 763944 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565810252 50205 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565810644 326579 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565810895 644682 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565813897 888530 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565814054 494924 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565814071 209979 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1565817889 834821 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565817967 264693 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565818124 198469 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565818247 962280 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565818600 704437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sometimes interesting to experience history backwards. NES Metroid is quite a good port of Super Metroid to a simpler hardware. Super Metroid is huge, so obviously Metroid can't have everything from it, but it does a really good job of showing as much of what we love as possible. Many things in it a really recognizable. < 1565818727 990421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pity they had to cut the MB phase 2 and 3 < 1565818924 165028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But apart from that, Tourian is a particularly faithful representation (even if, according to the story, it's a different Tourian than in Super Metroid) < 1565820048 193098 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmuaybuqerwffjpf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565822119 763800 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565823409 15175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-133.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1565824609 265401 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:55c0:c488:2e00:75f6 QUIT : < 1565825679 960512 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565825727 515772 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565825913 650998 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565826316 709961 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565827678 115736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/10/buffons-needle-easy-way.html is TG < 1565827785 208557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565828645 909761 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565828857 741459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1565828858 33523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1565828864 425738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1565828910 846559 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is TG < 1565828931 903406 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1565830282 977390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Disan14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65501&oldid=65496 5* 03A 5* (-18) 10 < 1565830436 7855 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1565830842 968275 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565831095 955257 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565833791 211923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565833829 784241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: is 48 hours + 1 second a long weekend? (possible due to leap seconds, or do you count the extra second as part of one of the 48 hours?) < 1565834075 744817 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565834361 611386 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1565835967 10046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1565840556 911130 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565840847 903180 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565843928 489974 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1565844138 540045 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565847052 910537 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565847363 905870 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ed87:357a:dba2:2ed5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565848642 536175 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1565850085 296704 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Must have knowledge of object oriented programming using HTML/CSS, JQuery" < 1565850085 402167 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://jpl.jobs/jobs/2019-10773-Engineering-Technical-Facilities-Part-Time-Internship < 1565852249 959655 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565852523 988286 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565852632 927985 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565853981 244548 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565854449 224027 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565854760 945967 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still on (my personal spin on) shachaf's error handling thing, I think one problem is languages that raise exceptions at the drop of a hat. "Key not found in map" and "divisor is zero" are not exceptional conditions in the same sense "file not found" or "connection was reset" are. < 1565854818 361710 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can statically insist that the key exists, that the divisor is zero, that the list is not empty, that the pointer is non-null. < 1565854894 716080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I could get behind that, yeah. As the name suggests, exceptions /should/ be used for exceptional conditions that a caller cannot be reasonably expected to handle. < 1565855095 507524 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly agree that exceptions for those things are scow. < 1565855109 837495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, even C raises an exception on division by 0. < 1565855217 896486 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good way to express these static checks is to write tiny proofs that they can't happen. Dependent types lets you do that, but IMO they're difficult to use and they'll never get widespread adoption. Refinement types seem to do much the same thing (in fact might be a kind of dependant typing) but are much more intuitive. < 1565855267 546031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those seem like good ideas that have never been made that usable as far as I know. < 1565855295 879519 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again once you have a good exception mechanism I suppose it's unavoidable that they will be used for things like keys not present in a map, and as a general non-local return mechanism as well. < 1565855338 571032 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the next version of Ada will have dependent types. If so, it will make it the only non-experimental *imperative* language to have them, as far as I know. < 1565855357 995584 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a JOIN :#esoteric < 1565855378 406251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's Error/Exception distinction is actually an attempt to distinguish between exceptions-as-exceptional-situations and exceptions-as-part-of-the-interface < 1565855393 49081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, "no one" uses Haskell, "no one" uses SMT solvers < 1565855413 501997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh? < 1565855419 334033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: news to me on both accounts < 1565855433 992008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Most Isabelle users use SMT solvers all the time!) < 1565855434 635474 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a good idea that has never been made usable < 1565855440 993058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course nobody uses Isabelle) < 1565855441 881922 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm being facetious) < 1565855467 776825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This one is actually much closer to the truth. I suspect there are about 100 serious Isabelle users? Maybe I'm wrong.) < 1565855468 450606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For refinement types, my point of reference is Liquid Haskell < 1565855523 603683 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: To be fair, there are a lot of systems *like* Isabelle, if you added up all those users, it might make a dent in the statistics. < 1565855529 191141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really hard to estimate these things! (Coq is inexplicably far more popular. It's so much harder to use!) < 1565855551 448217 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the impression Lean is the New Hawtness in this area < 1565855598 203606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's Z3 < 1565855611 819705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z3 is an SMT solver, like CVC4 and Yices? < 1565855618 764494 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a name which will forever make my think of Infocom when I read it < 1565855619 737825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in the same boat, I thought. < 1565855651 452656 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Z3 is more SAT than SMT < 1565855665 657749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure, tbh < 1565855669 415309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, Z3 is an SMT-solver. < 1565855698 725704 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. http://theory.stanford.edu/~nikolaj/programmingz3.html < 1565855703 910585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMT = Satisfiability modulo theories = DPLL + theory oracle; all the SMT solvers have a SAT solver core. < 1565855749 921487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in contrast to first-order theorem provers like Vampire, iProver, E, the old Prover9 and Mace4 ... and a bunch of others I forgot. < 1565855830 332220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What seems to be true is that SMT solvers are slowly acquiring limited first-order logic support (*some* universal quantifiers). But I don't know whether this is practical. < 1565855847 913390 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... so the reason Z3 has bindings to a bunch of regular programming languages is because you're supposed to write the "tactics" in the regular programming language? < 1565855877 375647 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, among other reasons I suppose < 1565855884 225508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Compilers can use SMT solvers for loop optimizations (in particular elision of bounds checks) < 1565855908 473020 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using the linear integer arithmetic fragment) < 1565855930 738134 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and Liquid Haskell uses a SMT solver (Z3 or some others) to let you write tiny proofs of the properties of the functions you've written < 1565855993 925535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for such things it's nice to have an API instead of having to write out thousands of SMT-lib files, to be parsed by the solver, and then reading back the solver's output... < 1565856041 356707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's incremental solving... (basically: you set up common constraints, then add and remove some additional constraints repeatedly) < 1565856120 5910 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit like superoptimization, except for theorems? < 1565856120 80639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, lots of stuff going on in that area. < 1565856205 931749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think of it as an advanced backtracking technique. Meta-backtracking, if you will. < 1565856334 81499 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm... I thought this program was going to run for about 8 hours... it's at 1136 minuts already. < 1565856336 49008 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without such a general solution, you can fairly easily build a static analysis phase that complains if you say x/y in a context where you don't know y is 0, and so forth. < 1565856346 238337 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not 0 < 1565856377 947269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah of course static analysis tools are also an important target for SMT solver APIs :) < 1565856394 371859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though I guess the compiler example is a special case of that.) < 1565856421 963050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes looks up supercompilation. (I have a vague idea, but no definition.) < 1565856480 908875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacompilation is impressively short :P < 1565856623 274877 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it as "here is a constraint, go try every (short!) permutation of machine instructions to find one that satisfies it" < 1565856636 716138 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often takes longer than 8 hours < 1565856662 652082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization < 1565856683 356279 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "supercompilation" is a different thing < 1565856716 491961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah!!! I conflated two different terms there. Thanks! < 1565856748 978076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Totally different concepts.) < 1565856816 800699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "often takes longer than 8 hours" <-- I hope that in practice you determine in advance how much time you want to spend on this kind of foolishness and then you take the best result you got in that timeframe? < 1565856837 799658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess you can also optimize as a continuous process and deploy everyt improvement you find) < 1565856993 507693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can actually see a company like Google doing such things. "We spend 0.001% of our computational power on trying to superoptimize our inner loops. If we manage to improve one of them by 1% that will pay off." (numbers are adjustable.) < 1565857069 266374 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think, other than for research and entertainment, it is mainly done by compiler developers < 1565857136 914047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose nVidia & co. are also doing such things? < 1565857178 626128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, lots of conversation < 1565857181 640271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Whenever there's a new game release, a few weeks later there's a graphics driver update, presumably with specially crafted binaries for the most important shaders.) < 1565857181 661909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMT solvers are TG. < 1565857213 563506 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. I can see how hardware manufacturers might care about it too, but I really don't know < 1565857229 999740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm speculating, of course. < 1565857250 410564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But consumer graphics cards sell by framerates in popular games. < 1565857277 160146 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565857333 523553 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565857437 417176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a shady industry < 1565857471 245576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not speculating about the new driver releases... those can be observed in practice. " releases new drivers after release of , solving some minor glitches and improving framerates by 10%" is a fairly common news item in tech news.) < 1565857514 573066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know for sure whether they include precompiled shaders, but this would go a long way towards explaining their ridiculous sizes. < 1565857575 852395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would sure be better if they just gave you an interface that let you optimize your shaders yourself. < 1565857808 870184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Supported operating systems: Microsoft Windows 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, XP, 2003, Media Center, Vista and Windows 7" ... hmm I think I approve of this list ;-) < 1565857968 972472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, I had not seen that yet... nVidia has "Game Ready Drivers" (focusing on "support for the latest games") and "Studio Drivers" ("prioritizes stability and quality for creative workflows") < 1565858015 879031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 496MB download. Explain that :) < 1565858213 587536 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they forgot to run `strip` < 1565858418 768261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are programs over 1024 bytes even necessary? < 1565858439 924090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just imagine the best program out of all 1024-byte programs. < 1565858448 853417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be so good. < 1565858455 534274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had a halting oracle. < 1565858462 2887 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565858485 77193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes it will halt (you won't prove me wrong) ;-) < 1565858523 681854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my program was "while (1);" < 1565858541 305488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what? < 1565858552 988380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your uptime? < 1565858661 300754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a second part to this... a halting oracle is not what you really want. < 1565858691 922115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What good is a program that halts after 10^10^10^10 operations? And that's a small number in the context of computability... < 1565858697 75096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'd at least like it to halt with what it's doing to Sun < 1565858724 786635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the program will affect the Sun much at all. :) < 1565858727 621039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway there are plenty of uses to a halting Oracle. < 1565858765 180268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have one you can certainly answer the more limited kinds of question you're talking about too. < 1565858768 744246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you could... determine the truth... of certain mathematical conjectures. < 1565858787 13634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's not a proof if it involves an oracle) < 1565858835 29949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I imagine a halting oracle wouldn't be cheap. < 1565858846 272182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably extract bits of the shortest proof, one at a time? < 1565858865 658272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it would work like a drug dealer though... you get one question for free. :P < 1565858889 684124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've asked before what you would do with a single-use halting oracle. < 1565858891 363740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("you" being the whole of humanity :P) < 1565858919 52638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just imagine the fight we would have over which question to ask!) < 1565859038 780004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And imagine the disappointment when we cleverly bundle everything we can think of together in a big conjunction (program that looks for counterexamples to Collatz, Goldbach, Riemann...) and the answer is that the program halts. < 1565859090 686378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't remember you asking that before. Maybe I missed it, maybe it didn't spark my interest at the time. *shrugs* < 1565859096 152120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minds are weird! < 1565859157 945338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I only asked in other places. < 1565859202 266519 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want a halting oracle, I want a greater recognition that there are (ideally) two classes of "programs": batch jobs that always halt, and reactive programs that never halt (until the administrator explicitly stops them.) < 1565859249 337495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many of the programs we use are the reactive kind, but so many of the languages we use assume you're going to write the batch kind < 1565859255 692948 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems irrelevant to questions about halting oracles. < 1565859270 770978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are programs that don't halt productively. < 1565859279 18805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the way in which they don't halt is productive. < 1565859327 882716 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in more of an engineering mood than a CS mood this morning I suppose < 1565859373 550042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, then sure. < 1565859384 856454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do languages assume one or the other? < 1565859425 788723 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not a huge practical problem, but, teaching kids to write games in Python or whatever and you have to explain why there is "main" and an "event loop" and this is just distraction < 1565859471 943094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A distraction from what? < 1565859498 982085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"while (true) { get_input(); compute(); show_game(); }" seems like a pretty reasonable description of what you want the computer to do. < 1565859575 394792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, what about initialization? Do you want to do that in awk style, defining a special event for it? BEGIN { ... } < 1565859588 847163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(awk and sed are kind of event based ;-) ) < 1565859599 137440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in a very awk-ward way, of course.) < 1565859625 946779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google "sedistic" < 1565859627 55521 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/hyjal/sedistic < 1565859632 573136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1565859687 592964 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: A distraction from how you design and code the reactive application that is the game. < 1565859728 867391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people write games in erlang? < 1565859749 278552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying something other than that there should be higher-level libraries and things for writing games? < 1565859755 369515 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I would totally believe that there are some MMP servers written in Erlang < 1565859757 655601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(am I missing another prominent actor-based programming language?) < 1565859820 43600 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, I'm talking about programming paradigms. One such is put front-and-center in most languages, but it is secondary or basically ignorable in a lot of applications. < 1565859931 969174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :while we're throwing out paradigms... am I the only one who thinks FRP is a mismatch with game programming because it's so hard to make the set of actors dynamic? < 1565859967 524830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more precisely, exprssing event flow by arrows < 1565860040 345300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that I formed this idea when I saw the first articles on arrow-based FRP and it stopped me from ever trying FRP myself... so it's quite possible that it's a misconception. < 1565860168 623293 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, all the other actor-based languages I can think of, I can't call prominent. And almost all the uses of "FRP" I hear, have only a tangential relation to the FRP you're talking about :) < 1565860170 473908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a second aspect that's holding me back there... lazy evaluation and real-time are at odds as well.) < 1565860213 392331 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: a lot of proponents of FRP hold that arrow-based FRP doesn't count, for what it's worth < 1565860252 564844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I have not encountered FRP outside of Haskell, which is probably entirely my own fault.) < 1565860265 635603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's functional because it's got functions in it, it's reactive because it reacts to events, it's programming because it's a program < 1565860271 900575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sounds fair < 1565860278 478088 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I conclude that Visual Basic is FRP < 1565860286 74239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Excel! < 1565860336 614071 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is just a refinement of the view that Excel is a functional programming model... it's reactive because cell updates trigger further cell updates) < 1565860445 373090 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Excel is honestly a lot closer to FRP than many JS libraries < 1565860465 742299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think the weakest link here is "P". < 1565860481 61366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of the three letters FRP) < 1565860833 396707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Have you ever played with Squeak? < 1565860938 710397 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-173-73-232.range86-173.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565860990 512174 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Not really. Smalltalk never really excited me. Though I can see how it's probably a bit closer to what I'm talking about here. < 1565860991 950113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I tried it once... and couldn't get over the fact that you have to work within the Smalltalk VM for everything. I want my external editor...) < 1565861021 972406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I want actual source code as well. Not "click on this window representing a class to add a method to it") < 1565861060 532881 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, not really a fan of languages that want to stay inside their own "hermetic" environment < 1565861068 950383 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I tried it once but gave up because something wanted me to middle-click) < 1565861085 90833 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at the time I was on a laptop with no middle click) < 1565861136 861747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Which is sad because Smalltalk per se looks kind of cool. < 1565861195 29503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should look at Swift. (I saw it's "Objective C minus C", so that should give us Smalltalk again :P) < 1565861236 598001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct Player { <-- uhm... yeah... nope. < 1565861304 469645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1565861319 391255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just peeking... and it looks a lot closer to Go than I expected from that description (tbf, the description came from Wikipedia).) < 1565861338 599025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "nope" as in "not Smalltalk" and also "not minus C". < 1565861355 846436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "struct" is a big part of C to me ;) < 1565861409 949340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Swift is very Smaltalky. < 1565861443 27286 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Objective C is probably cursed. I will not go into details, unless perhaps you ply me with rum. Ahhrrr. < 1565861456 251062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And you're right. < 1565861508 639439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 'At WWDC 2014, Apple introduced a new language, Swift, which was characterized as "Objective-C without the C".' is the description I was referring to, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C#Apple_development_and_Swift < 1565861522 718411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once looked into Objective C. I reimplemented NSObject and things to figure out what was going on. < 1565861528 28328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And now that I took a closer look I totally disagree with that description. < 1565861528 407908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In... 2012? Man. < 1565861533 585616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway it's a bizarro language. < 1565861548 195847 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye, Swift would of course inherit the curse. < 1565861616 810182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I guess they still have keyword arguments, and methods, and they dropped all the unmanaged, unsafe memory stuff. < 1565861649 476940 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'let 🐶🐮 = "dogcow"' < 1565861661 829873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just what I always wanted... smileys as identifiers. yuck. < 1565861899 888956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, perhaps shachaf would like this: if let constantName = someOptional { ... } else { ... }, corresponding to case someOptional of Just constantName -> ... | Nothing -> ... < 1565861961 773271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's related to the thing I want but it seems kind of worse. < 1565861996 89666 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no, I'm thinking of a different Swift feature with a similar syntax. < 1565862063 943076 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like a reasonable syntax for a special case of pattern matching? Not particularly better or worse than case. < 1565862095 439983 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like a way to overload the term "else" < 1565862158 476665 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not go all the way and overload "or" < 1565862161 15053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"guard let" is the one I was thinking of that was kind of annoying. < 1565862225 64356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :guard let x = y { ...; return ...; } < 1565862232 495000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, guard let x = y else { ...; return ...; } < 1565862248 178739 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The else block has to have an exit statement. < 1565862302 345024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be better if: Instead of requiring an exit, it could provide a substitute value; instead of being part of the "let" syntax, it was just an expression, as in "let x = guard y else { ... }" < 1565862467 773511 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like && and || in Bourne shell for this. < 1565862508 594386 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The exit code is only nominally an integer; it's actually some kind of error-type value. < 1565862661 920594 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :; should really do what && does (I think there's some flag in modern shells that makes it so.) < 1565862799 156216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh they do the Java thing where an enum is really more of a tagged union... < 1565862837 166450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a Java thing? < 1565862839 733952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the matching syntax for that is ugly: case .upc(let numberSystem, let manufacturer, let product, let check): < 1565862845 23231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I first saw it in Java < 1565862873 229222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java does that? < 1565862909 213983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Java made you use class inheritance to emulate tagged unions. < 1565862935 64999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java goes a bit beyond that. An Enum is syntax for a base class (the enum type) and subclasses for each enum element... which can carry their own data and methods. < 1565862959 671139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, modern Java does that for you. < 1565863003 652583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have an example? < 1565863015 665698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1565863045 662149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked it up and it didn't seem to be that way but I might've looked at the wrong thing. < 1565863047 580612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google java enums < 1565863048 450416 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.w3schools.com/java/java_enums.asp < 1565863088 960708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tdnh < 1565863107 79484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it didn't because it has too little detail < 1565863116 585200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can find something though :P < 1565863220 390104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at a bunch of things before asking. But maybe now I've found an example of the thing you're talking about. < 1565863245 170975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, I don't care about Java. < 1565863753 50918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hmm I seem to be misremembering the details. https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se12/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.9.1 <-- each enum element has a class body, but I'm not sure whether that's enough to associate arbitrary additional fields to each case. I don't want to try either. The examples I've seen just associate fixed values with each case (planets with weight and size seem to be... < 1565863759 598577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...popular) < 1565863834 482658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's amazingly hard to find the *documentation* of this feature... I had to start with "java syntax reference" because with anything more specific the search results would be swamped with useless secondary sources (tutorials, guides... well-intentioned but they barely scratch the surface) < 1565863853 194103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... back to Swift. < 1565863891 798641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you looking at all these languages lately? < 1565863904 970677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you also come to the conclusion that all languages are terrible? < 1565864004 960772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've realized that I've never looked at what those languages really are. < 1565864039 862373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "C-like managed language" is not detailed enough to criticize or embrace a language :P. < 1565864052 797992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you hear about this exciting update? https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2019/08/the-not-so-hidden-cost-of-sharing-code-between-ios-and-android/ < 1565864064 819190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:30 So Dropbox's new "mobile strategy" is to write everything twice, once for each platform. < 1565864067 823417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:31 How did we get to the point where each platform has its own programming language that you have to use? Wasn't this the point of high-level languages in the first place? < 1565864101 94586 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'll thank you to stay out of my walled garden < 1565864123 570977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how you computers now. < 1565864137 304383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We allowed vendor-lockin for software (in the name of security) is how we got to this point. < 1565864196 486444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's really no mystery to it. Apple in particular wants this to be expensive. But I don't think Google is far behind, Microsoft has been doing the same thing on an API rather than a language level, for ages. < 1565864992 836495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: While you can have custom fields and methods on an enum constant, you can't readily *access* them, because the enum constant is of the enum type. It's a little like doing `SomeConcreteClass foo = new SomeConcreteClass() { String notSoUseful = "foo"; };`. < 1565865002 340216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: What you *can* do with them is define some abstract methods in the enum type, and then implement them in the constant: https://ideone.com/TlCjqB < 1565865041 68020 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard example is 8.9.3-3 in https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se12/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.9.3 < 1565865141 544206 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Remember Microsoft J++? < 1565865366 835018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nope < 1565865432 606419 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not important, the main point is, yes, this sort of thing has been going on for ages < 1565865457 138453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But I do remember C# of course. < 1565865482 514928 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565865543 706343 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember Java < 1565865586 736140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you remember ALGOL 68? < 1565865620 5271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: As I recall it, Java was meant to be platform-independent, so it's in a different category :P < 1565865637 533715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course now it's meant to be a money-maker for Oracle. < 1565865803 708271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Buffon's needle? < 1565865809 410931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, done with Swift for now. Things that stood out are enums, properties, and extensions. < 1565865820 280934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: only once it's bent into a circle < 1565865834 273306 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only like it when it's bent into the word "this". < 1565865858 122488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this < 1565865859 236380 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1565865894 186452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learnappend this// Nobody likes this. < 1565865894 764817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learnappend: not found < 1565865903 266962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓈? < 1565865910 330403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn-append this// Nobody likes this. < 1565865910 996242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn-append: not found < 1565865914 257137 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. < 1565865936 892361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url bin < 1565865937 690554 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin < 1565865981 849558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append this Nobody likes this. < 1565865984 96957 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't open wisdom/thi: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'thi': Nobody likes this. < 1565865990 766319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1565865997 143809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1565865998 112072 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1565866005 490650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty bad. < 1565866010 624844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recommend le/rn_append hth < 1565866063 806216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn_append this//Nobody likes this. < 1565866065 910725 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'this': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this. < 1565866077 900554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nobody < 1565866079 21621 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody killed the cyclops Polyphemos after he tried to eat a shipful of sailors, and this perceived injustice made Poseidon so mad he swore vengeance at him and the gods couldn't calm him down for ten years. < 1565866094 824170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a b_jonas entry < 1565866099 267894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the cross-platform mobile thing, heard a lot about Flutter again while visiting MTV. I think I'd give it a go if someone forced me (or a tiny team) to build something on "both platforms" (...) with identical features. < 1565866100 629032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits nobody < 1565866102 212308 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like something I'd have written 6 years ago < 1565866102 352412 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän b_jonäs < 1565866121 308673 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hwrl nobody < 1565866122 64510 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/nobody < 1565866187 274366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Both platforms: iOS *and* Mac OS. < 1565866224 270001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think the solution will be to write my own UI library. < 1565866259 317522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx learn_append//echo "Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append." < 1565866260 880459 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn_append < 1565866268 770970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append < 1565866269 709204 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't do inplace edit: wisdom/ is not a regular file. \ /hackenv/bin/learn_append: line 5: wisdom/: Is a directory \ Learned '': cat: wisdom/: Is a directory < 1565866278 539211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1565866285 169945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``mv learn_append bin < 1565866285 697202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found < 1565866291 176324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` mv learn_append bin < 1565866292 900218 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565866298 234001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn_append < 1565866298 756317 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append. < 1565866315 394018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately this wouldn't have helped with your first two attempts. < 1565866323 744577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very good at this. < 1565866350 923768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -l le < 1565866351 721669 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 4 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 13 Jul 8 2017 rm -> ../bin/forget \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 17 Jul 8 2017 rn -> ../bin/slashlearn \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 225 Apr 7 2018 rn_append < 1565866362 82945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah but those didn't end up in the repository history so I regard them as harmless. < 1565866417 973604 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? le/rm ? < 1565866425 562320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag le/rm < 1565866427 121152 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9046:2016-09-16 ` ln -sf ../bin/forget le/rm \ 9044:2016-09-16 mkx le/rm//rm "wisdom/$1" < 1565866430 783934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figures. < 1565866494 502225 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? what < 1565866495 488600 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565866512 671277 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sorry < 1565866513 821368 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1565866517 341982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hug < 1565866518 368793 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ < 1565866597 738387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1565866598 742032 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? < 1565866650 889277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm going to sleep. < 1565866762 194006 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1565867380 936250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CrispyPin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65502 5* 03CrispyPin 5* (+123) 10Created page with "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." < 1565867513 200961 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565868359 550963 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1565868593 706929 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Rail14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65503&oldid=39735 5* 03CrispyPin 5* (+338) 10 < 1565868788 756606 :limbo_!ar@45.63.9.236 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1565869750 238963 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870138 988104 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:6804:a0ad:732:165a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565870311 294221 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870328 967236 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:84ec:ede9:5420:4aeb JOIN :#esoteric < 1565870484 52905 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I guess if you measure it accurately enough, then 2017-01-01 was a long weekend too because of the leap second < 1565870801 672775 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, raising an exception for floating point division by zero by default is a stupid decision that some languages including python and perl do for legacy reasons < 1565870817 823939 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the workarounds to do a floating point division without raising an exception aren't even simple there < 1565870872 313388 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -cx=0.0;print(3.0/x) < 1565870872 964735 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `3.0/x' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python3 -cx=0.0;print(3.0/x)' < 1565870881 983630 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'x=0.0;print(3.0/x)' < 1565870887 358903 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ ZeroDivisionError: float division by zero < 1565870903 800243 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'import numpy; x=numpy.float64(0.0); print(3.0/x)' < 1565870905 398815 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-c:1: RuntimeWarning: divide by zero encountered in double_scalars \ inf < 1565870985 721142 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like two more lines of code to ingore that warning < 1565871020 519770 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and < 1565871084 8617 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); x = a["foo"]' # raising an exception when looking up a key in a dictionary and it's not found, that I can understand < 1565871084 813528 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ KeyError: 'foo' < 1565871121 922487 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); del a["foo"]' # but python's dict is the only dictionary that's pedantic enough to raise an exception when a key is not found when you're trying to remove it < 1565871125 217613 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ KeyError: 'foo' < 1565871147 515212 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'a = dict(); a["foo"] = "bar"; x = a["foo"]; del a["foo"]' < 1565871148 284831 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1565871347 849244 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" it's a shady industry" => groan > 1565871949 319128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65504 5* 03A 5* (+1695) 10Created page with "[[Osis]] is a stack-based language specialized in sequences. Not only as in the commands, but also as in how it calculates the sequences. With smart memory usage and memoriz..." > 1565871986 352111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65505&oldid=65504 5* 03A 5* (+94) 10 > 1565871999 660370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65506&oldid=65505 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10 > 1565872216 143275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trance14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65507 5* 03A 5* (+416) 10Created page with "[[Trance]] is a useless language that only has replacement commands. ==Syntax==
 1: Replace all inputted 0's to 1's. 0: Replace all inputted 1's to 0's. 
==Computat..." < 1565872439 855886 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ; should really do what && does (I think there's some flag in modern shells that makes it so.)" => set -e; I use it in HackEso one-liners all the time, and it's not particularly modern < 1565872459 512225 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; echo one; true; echo two; false; echo three; echo four < 1565872460 201100 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :one \ two < 1565872507 633690 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatically exit when a command fails, unless it's syntactically in such a position that cares about whether it succeeds (it's not really the semicolon that's special < 1565872509 9361 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1565872661 989746 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh, TIL about set -e < 1565872665 130369 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good to know < 1565872788 208507 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" int-e: While you can have custom fields and methods on an enum constant, you can't readily *access* them," => yeah, java has learnt the good practices of data hiding from HQ9+ < 1565872800 106532 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and encapsulation < 1565872824 729377 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/9[+]/9++/ < 1565874163 950451 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aidpyummdjtiazth JOIN :#esoteric < 1565874406 129397 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Uh oh. I got around to testing your Wagon implementation on the test cases in my document and there are... discrepancies. < 1565874494 27120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1565874512 743961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tested a few, but I didn't test them all. < 1565874521 728999 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://gist.github.com/cpressey/9969c27e7a877af15bf81665c96c815f < 1565874772 853688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh did I get the order of the subtraction arguments wrong... < 1565874865 973378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I did < 1565875030 113906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's annoying; it makes negating the top of the stack quite a bit harder. > 1565875056 702810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65508&oldid=65506 5* 03A 5* (-86) 10 < 1565875058 670161 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there some way to just rearrange elements near the top? < 1565875079 139226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is but it involves using 'r' a lot. > 1565875085 486534 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65509&oldid=65508 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Command reference */ > 1565875175 470586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65510&oldid=65509 5* 03A 5* (+63) 10/* Command reference */ > 1565875189 494180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65511&oldid=65510 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Powers of 2 */ < 1565875254 957915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so if you change opS to opS (a : b : ss) = b-a : ss does that fix it? > 1565875326 203942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65512&oldid=65511 5* 03A 5* (-12) 10 < 1565875494 680716 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, it does. > 1565875535 484692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65513&oldid=65512 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Command reference */ < 1565875558 521589 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure to what extent this affects the fromTag compiler < 1565875573 489204 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the helper functions look easy to fix < 1565875637 130252 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is just one s in the main body of it, from what I can see < 1565875673 532685 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering at some point whether I should add x/X for swap ("eXchange") > 1565875769 377570 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65514&oldid=65513 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* Powers of 2 */ < 1565875853 216655 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565875889 547108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I'm fixing this... it'll just generate quite a bit more code < 1565875904 877737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"iriisririiisissr" swaps the top two elements of the stack < 1565875926 326109 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh good > 1565875949 294428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65515&oldid=65514 5* 03A 5* (-26) 10 < 1565875949 641863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, readable: 1r 0r 1r 2r < 1565875966 942560 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah ha right, there's another small thing < 1565875968 62868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where the numbers correspond to pushing that number on the stack) < 1565875976 662493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The doc says the argument to r must be 0 or 1 < 1565875989 542798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1565876000 440272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did this because I was too lazy to specify what order the retained elements are pushed back onto the stack < 1565876029 158818 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2r is technically undefined behaviour < 1565876045 649913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *will* be annoying. < 1565876065 75207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me fix the subtraction thing first. < 1565876110 685044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't think about that... to me it seemed obvious that the retained elements should just stay where they are) > 1565876201 793133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65516&oldid=65515 5* 03A 5* (+35) 10 < 1565876212 862068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the subtraction issue is resolved. Now let me think about whether I can reasonably deal with the 'r' thing... > 1565876298 654438 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65517&oldid=65516 5* 03A 5* (+34) 10/* Period [1,2] */ > 1565876312 729213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Osis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65518&oldid=65517 5* 03A 5* (+11) 10/* Command reference */ < 1565876423 853673 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should put a page on the wiki about this Wagon thing, pointing to where it's defined and the implementation and other info < 1565876910 109778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Nah, the 'r' thing messes up everything for me. With only 0 and one, you cannot change the adjacency relations of elements on the stack (viewed as a ring with the last element linked to the first). < 1565876978 358157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all data movement has to happen through arithmetic... which may be possible, but it's bound to be much harder than what I've been doing. < 1565877048 734554 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565877132 74549 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have been clearer and/or done a more proper release. I'm sorry. < 1565877232 762340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you can do the in-place swap a = a-b; b = b+a; a = -a-b; < 1565877282 870049 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nah, no release is completely normal. these things tend to just escape without a release. > 1565877499 840462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65519 5* 03B jonas 5* (+433) 10Created page with "Wagon is a stack-based language created by cpressey in 2019. It's advertised as a "second-order concatenative language". It uses a stack of unbounded size integers and a sma..." < 1565878067 686810 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in a wagon program, all the while loops are nested, like as an ordinary program they would look like *[*[*[...*[*[*]*]*...]*]*]* where the brackets are while loops and each star can be any sequence of ordinary non-looping instructions that act on the stack? < 1565878091 684846 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't have two loops that aren't nested but are next to each other, like *[*]*[*]* > 1565878121 983589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65520&oldid=65467 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12) 10 < 1565878220 509896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh well, I think I can make this work, but wow is it tedious ;) > 1565879011 851090 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65521&oldid=65519 5* 03B jonas 5* (+64) 10 < 1565879156 462694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: for example, diriisririisrirsirdiisriririisrirsirdiriisriisiriisrirsirsiisrir swaps the top two elements of the stack < 1565879202 853131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without using 2r) < 1565879252 351427 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary < 1565879266 248562 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is this why you were talking about super-optimizers? < 1565879273 72153 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find shorter wagon instruction sequences? < 1565879362 551798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, definitely not < 1565879369 158305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just a general SMT discussion < 1565879725 41741 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: your statements about *[*[...]*]* and *[*]*[*]* are correct < 1565879790 955135 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ok, I think that qualifies this as an esolang < 1565880106 444254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so instead of 1586 characters, I now have 22826 characters... < 1565880127 801394 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1565880161 353852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but it works again, and never uses r with arguments other than 0 and 1: http://paste.debian.net/1095871/ < 1565880254 678892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I even got the basic logic to work again, which I was a bit skeptical about at first) < 1565880427 838201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with a builtin swap it would be 4430 characters; there are 292 swaps in that code now.) < 1565880441 19704 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Olé, Olé, Olé! < 1565880472 632767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who cares... I'm sure this can be optimized quite a bit. < 1565880970 925080 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to put out a more proper release tomorrow. < 1565880977 131585 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1565881015 216849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1095873/ is a bit better, 15378 characters < 1565881219 763514 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565881449 524096 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric > 1565881461 646902 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Wagon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65522 5* 03Int-e 5* (+257) 10Put link here for future reference. < 1565881939 87918 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565882301 231709 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565882499 774551 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565882947 821969 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565883531 709759 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565884637 596447 :onon!~onon@unaffiliated/onon JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887008 112496 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565887044 533376 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887098 526371 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1565887153 212004 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565888617 203254 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565888914 778251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565889122 744904 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aidpyummdjtiazth QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565890657 258345 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565890803 407726 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1565890813 112503 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891047 637006 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565891049 749989 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891073 781847 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest < 1565891227 195361 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891248 748974 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565891450 308183 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Client Quit < 1565892141 379968 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565892708 553877 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565892849 989517 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:84ec:ede9:5420:4aeb QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565893770 989220 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565894604 846147 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: thank you all < 1565895779 762056 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565895973 193480 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565896035 741894 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565896191 565392 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565896332 216256 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565896703 229786 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565896910 155180 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1565897391 67878 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565897402 303350 :diverger!~div@89.238.130.200 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565897930 626948 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1565898963 517020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65523&oldid=65490 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1) 10Undo revision 65490 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]]) Deadfish resets to 0 only at exactly 256, it's a required 'bug' < 1565899042 172245 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565899069 516773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565899103 763219 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ysaclist < 1565899104 491849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ysaclist: boily shachaf < 1565899112 982696 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Mc0ChHhlk < 1565899146 747224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: You YSAC? < 1565899151 812752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not on the list! < 1565899165 772606 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get notified by YouTube about it < 1565899208 675976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You gotta like, subscribe, click the little bell, and let us know what you think in 04t08h09e 11c12o13m04m08e09n11t12s 13b04e08l09o11w. < 1565899320 834897 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of obnoxious how every channel has to ask people to click the bell because the assumption is that they don't know how to use YouTube's UI < 1565899397 805124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's the assumption. < 1565899408 17806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assumption is only that if you tell people to do it, they'll do it more than if you don't. < 1565899492 932050 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, but the problem that caused this is that YouTube's "Home" page doesn't show every video from your subscriptions, and instead shows a bunch of random crap instead. You have to go to "Subscriptions" if you want to see all the videos from the channels you're subscribed to. < 1565899523 221321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that YouTube hates you and wants you to suffer. < 1565899526 592913 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least if you have the notification bell clicked, you'll get a notification, and I'm not sure but maybe it helps those videos appear on "Home" as well. < 1565899542 437965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather they don't care about you and want to extract the maximum possible 04e08n09g11a12g13e04m08e09n11t out of you. < 1565899730 967738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: click on the thumbs up too. if we get four thousand thumbs up on this video, we'll do a special one next week. < 1565899764 390575 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :👍 < 1565900345 620925 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565900528 610159 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565900529 861269 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1565900596 63351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 👍 < 1565900597 309160 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F44D THUMBS UP SIGN] < 1565900601 762428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1565900619 223667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Are you awake at all times? < 1565900641 503501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been awake at all times modulo 24, I think. < 1565900655 738704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(24h that is) < 1565901157 37244 :divergence!~div@92.119.176.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903466 800482 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903771 43931 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgzeuntkzzdsoccd JOIN :#esoteric < 1565903927 78989 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565904456 63921 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565904858 70065 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565904861 295592 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565905125 577454 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1565906032 960371 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d JOIN :#esoteric < 1565906291 975179 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565906415 373112 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1565906676 585702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-50.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1565907169 675949 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Black14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65524&oldid=55554 5* 03ZM 5* (+4) 10/* Golly */ Wright's GitHub profile changed < 1565907495 216367 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565908063 563724 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1565908321 996043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565908955 284367 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565910434 516240 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565910603 214068 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565911000 492824 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PART :#esoteric < 1565911052 206974 :catern!~catern@catern.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911118 483770 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1565911169 19716 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1565911706 850649 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism. < 1565911772 640449 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911905 760512 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1565911989 195825 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.49.48 QUIT :Client Quit < 1565912376 786928 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565912643 755936 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565914552 941907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1565915623 949441 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1565915649 958511 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d JOIN :#esoteric < 1565915905 957648 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:44e1:d8be:e82:a09d QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565916020 99507 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565916277 46680 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565919528 400820 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565919703 200387 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565920534 225444 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony < 1565922306 588956 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://rabbitboots.com/kfx/index.php/ZZT_On_ZZT#Undocumented_features Now I noticed they mentioned you can push | to access the cheat prompt on the title screen in ZZT. I did not know that, but now I know. < 1565923050 44086 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565923419 53169 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565925122 862200 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgzeuntkzzdsoccd QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565932931 603777 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1565936756 203879 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565936918 966342 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:508:3140:aa4d:83d6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565936975 406183 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565938452 93320 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565938998 873529 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:508:3140:aa4d:83d6 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565939411 972255 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:fce9:72fe:a621:4882 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565939496 964917 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1da3:c66a:f0a2:1010 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565939665 960327 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:fce9:72fe:a621:4882 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565939753 957693 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1da3:c66a:f0a2:1010 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1565940107 570631 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1565940451 623504 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Messersm 5* 10New user account > 1565940895 516925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65525&oldid=65480 5* 03Messersm 5* (+218) 10/* Introductions */ < 1565942655 929374 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565943653 645756 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565943834 634753 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565946085 801601 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565950673 944449 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, it's unknown whether the Post Correspondence problem is decidable with 3 or 4 tiles. < 1565951163 187990 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565951560 603967 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOCCC winners are denounced; IOCCC switches are debounced < 1565951713 893045 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have this vanilla term-rewriting language, and a program that can, given a set of rules, check if a given sequence of rewrites is valid or not. < 1565951758 54273 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to find the shortest distance between this program, and a program that can check if a proof written in propositional logic is valid or not. < 1565951840 41493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need much to turn the one into the other, but you do need a few things, and I want a clear idea of what they are. < 1565951864 57613 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :First-order logic would be the next step beyond that. < 1565951999 495231 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is definitely worth checking out: http://incredible.pm/ < 1565952020 567912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so I made a faster Wagon interpreter: https://gist.github.com/int-e/e4ae1f40f8173d67860d8f8e45c433c0#file-ring-hs > 1565952126 870320 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Wagon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65526&oldid=65522 5* 03Int-e 5* (+42) 10/* Computational Class */ --> link < 1565952159 481939 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's pretty neat < 1565952642 193308 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565953759 262053 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: your implementations make mine look like chicken-scratches. I'll try to make and release a Wagon distribution today. But I have to rewrite the part about computational class first. < 1565954643 903928 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565954848 572251 :divergence!~div@92.119.176.20 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565954899 193035 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565954920 680599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, should I have a look at the cargo cult? < 1565954956 953159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean Rust: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch02-00-guessing-game-tutorial.html) < 1565954963 837911 :diverger!~div@92.119.176.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565955851 560146 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/catseye/Wagon < 1565955923 281691 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some thoughts about how you might simulate a TM more directly in a Wagon-like language. Basically you could say something like: < 1565956030 361683 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while(!halt) { write(0,0,0); if(s>1) { if(s>2) { if(s>3) { xor(1,0,1) } xor(0,1,1) } xor(1,1,1) } use() } < 1565956056 453687 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where use() takes what's been written by write() and modified by xor() and applies it to the tape < 1565956107 911185 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, we can do something like that. < 1565956132 953048 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use() still represents "a little control" perhaps < 1565956356 563533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 runhugs < 1565956446 984678 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If you look closely at Tag.hs, I have enough building blocks for boolean circuits plus an extensible circular tape. < 1565956543 417850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess the real challenge with your suggestion is to deal with the variable movement of the TM's head. > 1565956600 892460 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65527&oldid=65521 5* 03B jonas 5* (+62) 10link to the new int-erpreter < 1565956655 660798 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, I was thinking, if you had a slightly different memory model, and an instruction "pop N and add N to position of tape head" - otherwise you need a loop < 1565956672 830128 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an if < 1565956691 961650 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c you only *need* to handle -1 and 1 < 1565956739 895130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I believe you /can/ have a variadic shift by invoking "r" with a flag that indicates whether to move or not, often enough. < 1565956757 984487 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good grief. yes, possibly you can < 1565956784 501271 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r is disappointingly powerful, even with only 0 or 1 < 1565956801 789705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's tricky to get right. (I was happy when I had my new 'landn' operation and that only has two "variable" r operations, the second one undoing the effect of the first.) < 1565956827 271194 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565956923 164401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so it may be powerful, but it's really awkward to use. < 1565957279 913586 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And as mentioned yesterday, the restriction to 0 and 1 gutted it to the point where it cannot be used to permute elements on the stack anymore. < 1565957309 336313 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's good! For some value of "good". < 1565957442 980852 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re hugs, cpressey == luddite, I have not actually tested it on hugs, but it's in the "standard Haskell-running script" that I've sort of arrived at < 1565957464 243537 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/catseye/Wagon/blob/master/bin/wagon < 1565957468 935744 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah that's what I thought :) < 1565957487 548283 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me happy that I can build Hugs on NetBSD, etc < 1565957488 733669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I honestly can't remember when I last used hugs. < 1565957529 497191 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suspect it has been over a decade. < 1565957624 407231 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, running Wagon's test suite on Hugs is actually faster than running it with ghci. < 1565957671 542741 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.8 seconds versus 6.2 seconds < 1565957708 255424 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.18 seconds if you compile it with ghc first < 1565957797 208720 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can forgive the ghc team for not making reducing ghci startup time their #1 priority, though. < 1565957826 513550 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't ;) < 1565957866 744498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is /the/ bottleneck for lambdabot's Haskell evaluation. Which is obviously the most important use case in the world.) < 1565957918 821268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not ghci exactly; it's mueval, which uses hint, which uses the ghc API in a way similar to, but not quite the same as, ghci does. < 1565957978 160381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a terrible idea, but could you not run a sort of "language server daemon" in the backrgound that... yeah < 1565958016 7395 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Split lambdabot into a set of microservices < 1565958063 172926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm worried about trading timeouts for a memory leak. < 1565958114 588651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ghci is bad at releasing memory... so a I imagine a long-running haskell evaluation server would inherit that property) < 1565958184 521420 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565958308 969362 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So I have a crazy idea that would involve starting a ghc API session, loading the most important packages, then suspend the RTS, and then fork the process, and proceed with the actual evaluation. But I'm scared of investigating it in detail (the RTS is multi-threaded, and uses pipes internally, and who knows what else) < 1565958420 74524 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be two-graded, using hugs by default, but if evaluation takes long, switch to compiling with ghc < 1565958431 568950 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would lead to funny unexplainable inconsistencies in behavior < 1565958646 538635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/funny/interesting/ is about as far as I'm willing to go < 1565958664 667814 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the "interesting times" sense of course) < 1565959622 572973 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ghc points out that there's a forkProcess operation that does a lot of this work; it may just be enough. > 1565960918 960136 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65528&oldid=65527 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+383) 10Make the article a little less stub-like. > 1565961176 947971 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wagon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65529&oldid=65528 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+0) 10Category name does not contain a hyphen < 1565962225 918179 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exidludqvopmipmf JOIN :#esoteric < 1565963153 222650 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1565963446 103257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( stubby ) < 1565963923 772162 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565964222 839725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( gRPC ) < 1565966345 822022 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1565966371 842098 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565966622 407501 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1565966753 213233 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565967485 467580 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565967752 394995 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565968552 663252 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ippuamdafcgifmce QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1565968561 655239 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jvxeeezicoyjcijj JOIN :#esoteric < 1565969896 239362 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565970433 452855 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I wrote a document for using Glk with Funge-98. < 1565970488 833866 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The registry doesn't work (as it says, it is obsolete), so, I will ask here instead. < 1565970556 91737 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think that there should be a handprint value defined for unregistered interpreters. < 1565970813 533727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What do you think? Presumably you have many opinions regarding Funge-98. < 1565970813 773708 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: on the other hand; i'm probably goign to use it is me, by the way, < 1565970839 838203 :fungot`!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 NICK :fungot > 1565971152 494349 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65530&oldid=64583 5* 03Erwijet 5* (+261) 10Added erwijet's flexable brainf.net library < 1565971195 193388 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1565971236 791496 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565971940 452348 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565972099 795634 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1565973828 467830 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1565975794 933362 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exidludqvopmipmf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565976986 218472 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565977386 103218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-112.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1565978229 681990 :zombocoder!~root@user-5-173-84-51.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1565978230 537356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565978287 523891 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1565978425 60425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-112.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what genre of music does my hon. and learned friend fungot listen to? < 1565978425 275219 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i just want to use local packages, specify file urls. if you want < 1565978448 670149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-112.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ok, show me < 1565978448 873596 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: looking at it. relative to s48 that's exactly what i said doesn't make any sense > 1565978486 872330 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Loose Circular Brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65531 5* 03Ais523 5* (+45) 10redir > 1565978646 148849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Wagon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65532&oldid=65526 5* 03Ais523 5* (+522) 10alterrnative Turing-completeness proof: you can implement two-bracket brainfuck < 1565980009 42279 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565980081 54012 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1565980798 854288 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565980830 901082 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1565980919 636358 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pxtzetbewhfwyjjp JOIN :#esoteric < 1565982739 505799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1565983047 959172 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1565983335 917364 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565984044 602919 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1565984553 478824 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1565984862 211973 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565985922 963187 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1565987008 677477 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1565987040 373234 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1565987547 901249 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1565988335 579176 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1565990744 826130 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to make Ghostscript to not wait until the window is exposed before it will work? < 1565991771 203654 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pxtzetbewhfwyjjp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1565992123 550886 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1565992324 206948 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1565992383 633465 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1565996917 313993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-112.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1565998327 98282 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566001975 466277 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out how. If it is written: gs -dNODISPLAY Then it won't print any pages at all, but other stuff still works. < 1566002274 225609 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566002351 929037 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566002394 909774 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, ALGOL 68 or Zig? < 1566002458 611603 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1566002548 200952 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566003990 556850 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566004258 445021 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566006626 286156 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 6 < 1566006628 828974 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6 < 1566006756 68178 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :So did I mention that I've implemented a programming language? So far, the only thing you can do in it is define uninhabited types. < 1566007663 218407 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What programming language is that? < 1566007720 570077 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the idea of a "block of code" as a semi-first-class thing that exists at compile-time makes sense? < 1566007727 437329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even a parameterized block. < 1566007830 371039 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's one I'm inventing. < 1566007885 188996 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm calling it Hylisk. < 1566008083 607890 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1566008105 286009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think it can. < 1566008185 267422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what it'd be like? < 1566008258 837051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might depend the programming language, I think. < 1566008281 333128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. If I invent a programming language, what would it be like? < 1566008456 390262 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1566008488 658204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is like a kind of hygienic macro, maybe. < 1566008503 238099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should read about hygienic macro systems. < 1566008528 726724 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I also thought so, it is like that (although used in a specific kind of context, if the programming language has more than one kind of context). < 1566008570 598795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want things like block labels (used for early exit) to be semi-first-class, passable at compiletime. < 1566008578 759855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know of a language that does things like that? < 1566008600 870291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't know. < 1566008627 752359 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1566008645 148302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1566008940 521385 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The document for PostScript says the limit for strings is 65535, but Ghostscript documentation says 16777216, but, I tried it and it doesn't seems to accept strings longer than 65535. < 1566009000 114480 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they change it some version that I don't have? < 1566009397 935026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. > 1566013891 494207 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65533&oldid=65500 5* 03A 5* (+1351) 10/* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */ < 1566014550 963258 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566014602 254245 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering: does SETI@home uses Fast Fourier Transform to find repeating signals, as simple as this? < 1566016254 518897 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566020215 908918 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1566020417 668202 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566020487 902661 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566020592 865107 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566021189 709270 :galenasphaug!~galenasph@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566021351 564743 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote the program in Farbfeld Utilities to read a PostScript file. (It just uses the Ghostscript Interpreter API, and then converts the data to farbfeld.) < 1566021397 841737 :galenasphaug!~galenasph@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: galenasphaug < 1566021482 721014 :clownfishman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566021607 530886 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-43-249-240.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566021694 283139 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-43-249-240.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PART :#esoteric < 1566021798 433471 :clownfishman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: clownfishman < 1566021887 720839 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566021901 727670 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566021988 712153 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566022403 117414 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566022633 751642 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566022645 869771 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566022771 724301 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566022823 918297 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566023057 678687 :clownfishhuman!~clownfish@174-18-102-197.tcso.qwest.net PART #esoteric :"Good Bye" < 1566023356 52674 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566026664 110541 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1566026699 958686 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1566026961 955110 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566028685 638399 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1566030217 557559 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566030342 24107 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566031346 158310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07C-INTERCAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65534&oldid=59264 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+36) 10 < 1566031506 633943 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566031869 212418 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1566035328 278499 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566035429 813506 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1566035634 385515 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566036712 641481 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e JOIN :#esoteric < 1566036720 999681 :zombocoder!~root@82.static.enf.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1566037061 315284 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566037261 634279 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566037809 483807 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fnsmdxsfkpisygab JOIN :#esoteric < 1566037810 578373 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jvxeeezicoyjcijj QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1566037831 892227 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fnsmdxsfkpisygab NICK :heroux < 1566039756 861216 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566042828 908096 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566042967 769568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: is that because it's a language where you have to do everything during compile time? < 1566044648 533221 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ac95:8c0c:9f31:c40e QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566044903 940729 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566045179 964033 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:553d:686a:de85:c785 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566045180 324609 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566047402 433773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how are your smooth numbers coming along? < 1566047466 874058 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm not sure what you mean. < 1566047772 619191 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566048662 934512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: if you compute everything at runtime in the type system, then you don't actually need instances of the types < 1566048676 193499 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: haven't worked on it yet, sorry < 1566048685 272365 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1566048695 824113 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zyqytzunflsbjgjs PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's because I just haven't implemented values yet. < 1566049143 633492 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1566049785 547283 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@178-221-21-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1566049785 724523 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@178-221-21-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :es < 1566050057 88824 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@178-221-21-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hih < 1566055409 22058 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@178-221-21-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566056460 249357 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566056518 967536 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566056518 985883 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1566056628 302212 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566058346 222103 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1566059827 143907 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commercial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65535&oldid=52103 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+52) 10added mirror link since the original has been deleted < 1566060760 847751 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566060789 337718 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566061027 877767 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566061087 3587 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566061310 219455 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1566061343 469584 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566065602 143484 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1566066619 38107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drive-In Window14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65536&oldid=65493 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+72) 10Now with online interpreter :) < 1566067224 877671 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566067312 207440 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566067834 919364 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566068369 451612 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566068791 130077 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566068812 414784 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566068821 505160 :MDead!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1566072926 522301 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566072982 921961 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566073058 108802 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up some Magic: the Gathering card of story of GURPS game I play. Some I put on here, but, I wrote some more on a paper. Now, I can write on the computer, too. < 1566073120 736042 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evil Barber {2UB} Creature - Human Shapeshifter (1/1) ;; {1X}: ~ becomes a copy of target creature with converted mana cost X or target creature card in any graveyard with converted mana cost X, except it is a Shapeshifter in addition to its other types. This effect can be ended as a special action. < 1566073330 429759 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566073492 945472 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566073503 117752 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1566075314 361181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MinISCule14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65537&oldid=65413 5* 03Calamari 5* (+386) 10Added additional external references > 1566075471 847795 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Calamari14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65538&oldid=65443 5* 03Calamari 5* (+206) 10/* Issues With Page */ < 1566077539 603377 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566078004 919 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566078797 840899 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566078851 775291 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1566080723 525090 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566080787 722721 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566082070 302406 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axe of Reuse {2} Artifact - Equipment ;; Equipped creature gets +2/+1 and has vigilance. ;; Equip {4} < 1566082082 704965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this Magic: the Gathering cards? Do you like to make up the cards too? < 1566082712 950507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, looks ok but I find I have no use for such expensive equipment cards. it's a bit of a pity because Wizards found that Bonesplitter is too powerful, they can't print one like that again, and all they can do with the next equipment is try to race for the remaining slots for decks that need more than 4 equipment. < 1566082771 627113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that Vulshok Gauntlets, with its 2 mana cost and 3 equip cost is as expensive as I dare to < 1566082930 34416 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. What comment of the other one? < 1566082970 223455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I seem to recall there was some top tier creature that let you use expensive equipment for free in a way that's more efficient than the original Mirrodin block ones < 1566082984 840454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shapeshifter? I really can't judge how those work < 1566083024 855831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only ever see them as causing trouble with the rules, not as cards in real games < 1566083050 130399 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works fine as far as I can tell from reading the rules. < 1566083095 331946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, there's no specific rules problem with this card < 1566083109 330831 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566083857 988716 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566084224 273525 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1566085478 124917 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1566085486 197992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: higan < 1566085495 8722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy to report that the kittens are extremely good < 1566085507 456953 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1566085509 421606 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got kittens? < 1566085515 993111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kmettens < 1566085520 965878 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1566085537 5382 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello kmettens < 1566085542 493783 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like smileys < 1566085561 775194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kitten smilies like |\__/| ? < 1566085600 829345 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566085607 461271 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have kmetten smileys < 1566086363 633991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint(240/4) < 1566086364 358583 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 < 1566086727 292305 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1566088376 72465 :andrewtheircer!b2dd15f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.221.21.244 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566088696 552153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566088722 226295 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566090663 596649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-72.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566091251 866192 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566091534 500606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566091549 114189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I'm dealing with a really annoying missed optimisation atm < 1566091552 684976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptrdiff_t notneg(unsigned char b) { if (b <= 0xC0) __builtin_unreachable(); return -(ptrdiff_t)(unsigned char)~b; } < 1566091740 473652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the correct optimisation is «return 1 + (ptrdiff_t)(signed char)b;» but neither gcc nor LLVM finds it (you could also do the increment first) < 1566091957 212544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, they don't find it even with a cast to signed char in there, although clang finds it if you put a cast to signed /int/ in there (of course, none of these casts make a difference because ~b has to be a positive number in the 0..30 range) < 1566091996 841070 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM allows you to specify the range, but I think only for loading from memory. < 1566092105 474244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just get annoyed when compilers produce asm that's worse than the asm I'm expecting < 1566092130 652504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I'm the sort of person who actually checks that when I write code like -(ptrdiff_t)(unsigned char)~b…) < 1566092177 566308 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any command to have a inline LLVM code in a C code? < 1566092223 178968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in Ghostscript, the "forall" command doesn't seems to work properly for strings longer than 800 bytes. (Other commands work (including the "length" command), and it works fine for arrays, but not for strings.) Why does it do that? < 1566092309 51714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no standard C method to use inline LLVM; clang could theoretically support it as an extension to __asm__ but I don't think it does < 1566092419 637995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so my next problem is, should I write it as 1 + (ptrdiff_t)(signed char)b in the original source, even though that's a lot less clear (the operation I'm using is conceptually a combination of a bitwise-complement and a unary minus, the fact that that does the same thing as an increment is just an intentionally engineered coincidence) < 1566092565 206381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oddly enough if you write out a lookup table gcc finds a good implementation. < 1566092699 64536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, if you special-case all 31 possible inputs? :-D < 1566092728 935559 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you write a switch over the entire range. < 1566092781 420364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean "range of inputs" and not "codomain" or "image", which people refer to as "range" for some reason.) < 1566092825 428959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One possibility is to write a comment. < 1566092875 830426 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, which implementation is better might depend on the target computer, maybe?) < 1566092913 919364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the context of this function? < 1566092925 868872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :decoder for a file format < 1566092953 917496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stores references to earlier locations in the file as 1, 2, 4, or 8 bytes, I'm writing a separate function for each < 1566092961 792548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the speed of this operation is relevant? < 1566092965 37736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the references are bitwise-complemented < 1566092991 213581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the format's designed to be extremely fast, faster to use a memory image of the format than actually parsing it < 1566093012 696781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, which format is it? < 1566093015 414224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this operation needs to be able to compete with pointer dereferences to do that < 1566093021 647001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a format I'm inventing atm < 1566093034 878615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1566093062 790665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the idea is that the +1 ends up getting inlined into the dereference of the resulting pointer) < 1566093113 907414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd store the offsets as with the +1 added if I could, but I can't because 0 is a valid offset and there is a fairly esoteric constraint that the offsets cannot be valid UTF-8 < 1566093135 848492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is definitely the right channel for this :-D < 1566093151 866792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's the reason for the 0xc0. I was vaguely wondering before whether it was related to UTF-8. < 1566093168 7604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this for? < 1566093179 240299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you're being deliberately vague. < 1566093208 539014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because it's secret, mostly because it's hard to explain < 1566093230 213971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the format's designed for the output of a parser, i.e. the in-memory representation of a parse tree < 1566093250 60073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to be generic enough to be usable in much the same situations as XML is < 1566093290 131704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the idea is that the parser output is just an image in memory, it's not something that you parse into a linked tree of structures like you normally do < 1566093326 648458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked lists are bad performance-wise, and linked trees are very common but probably also beatable in performance for the same reasons, so I wanted to try < 1566093377 200631 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :XML is often used in cases where it shouldn't be, anyways, I think < 1566093379 662638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense. < 1566093404 32006 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect the gains from a more efficient memory encoding are way bigger than the gains from a couple of extra instructions to dereference a pointer. < 1566093407 321704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes < 1566093420 420619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's what I'm hoping, at leasts < 1566093452 9176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not just more efficient, but more compact too, meaning it makes better use of the cache; also less malloc overhead) < 1566093519 124309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's plausible that even with a regular parser, you should have only one or a few calls to malloc for the entire tree, which you free all at once. < 1566093544 50665 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There isn't much benefit to mallocing individual nodes. < 1566093633 829428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the parsers I've seen so far malloc individual nodes for the output tree, although I agree there isn't much benefit to it < 1566093646 840984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the idea is to let you free parts of the tree individually < 1566093677 847376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect there's no real idea, it's just that people learn that that's how you get memory. < 1566093681 930455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the normal operation on a tree is to traverse it, and that lets you build a new tree as you go < 1566093734 48911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some programs you would free one branch of the tree separately from the rest < 1566093736 293089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this program is actually being written in Rust (I translated it into C to test it on gcc), and rust has a #[no_std] annotation that means your program has no support at all from the operating system, it's used for purely algorithmic libraries < 1566093791 149224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means you don't get memory allocation unless the caller gives you a memory allocation callback, and so I try to avoid allocations out of habit, thinking carefully about if I need them < 1566093799 328904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :often, I don't need much more than one or two for the program < 1566093818 441798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know more about possible allocation strategies. < 1566093852 161045 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've talked about that in here before. < 1566093869 902381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the one I'm working on for this program (for the parsers, tree operations, etc.) is a purely linear allocation strategy where everything is written in memory left to right in order, meaning that your algorithms have to be able to manage that < 1566093911 204153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this memory go left to right in order of increasing addresses? < 1566093913 908071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many algorithms can't, but for a parser it's fairly hopeful because parsing algorithms and tree-traversal algorithms both naturally work like that < 1566093948 120046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, increasing addresses (decreasing is possible I guess but it's sufficiently alien that you normally get less support from the standard library, OS, processor, etc.) < 1566093975 215425 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's the call stack. < 1566093988 933586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing left to right unfortunately means that reading right to left is sometimes required, but reads on a parse tree are generally more random-access than writes as it is (you're often trying to match both branches of the tree to something) < 1566093996 730420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idiom of having a global (or thread-local) arena that can be used effectively as a stack but with the frames manually managed. < 1566094003 244867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call stack in x86 is the wrong way up and I am very upset at this < 1566094047 745517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So functions that produce variable-size output that's only needed briefly can just write into there. < 1566094052 201305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. sprintf. < 1566094053 528129 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote one program which needs the caller to specify a memory allocation function, although you can just put realloc and it will work, which is normally what would be done, I think. < 1566094059 83529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one /really big/ technical advantage to having the call stack the other way round, which is that in x86, overflows beyond the end of a stack-allocated array overwrite the function's return address by default, which is just about the worst possible thing to overwrite < 1566094085 932745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've heard that brought up as a security benefit and I don't really buy it. < 1566094098 84155 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some instruction sets the call stack is not addressable < 1566094102 262876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the call stack goes the other way, the situations in which that happen are much less common, requiring you to be writing to an array of a function which called the current one < 1566094116 412752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, having a separate call stack and data stack is a much better idea for multiple reasons < 1566094120 120461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :char buf[n]; sprintf(buf, "%s", ...); seems pretty common to me. < 1566094129 853301 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I agree that that makes more sense. < 1566094191 633384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, that example is broken regardless of which way up the stack goes (although with a stack that goes upwards, sprintf would at least be able to detect that something was wrong; it knows where its own return address is in memory, but not where its caller's is) < 1566094214 670074 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea.. that seems like a security /issue/ < 1566094217 132721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if anyone would write sprintf like that, but maybe they would < 1566094218 857502 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bad < 1566094229 471027 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that's exactly how ROP works < 1566094241 507835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Or, I mean, char buf[n]; gets(buf); or whatever. < 1566094267 549026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many of the classic buffer overflow problems involve calling another function so changing the stack direction doesn't help much. < 1566094268 392675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: well, ROP is one of the most effective ways to exploit this, but the exploit isn't ROP, it's just that the exploit lets you use ROP < 1566094290 204812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets should be simple enough to be inlined < 1566094306 40817 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :also thumbs-up for using rust. If you're trying to allow custom allocators, use what is already provided < 1566094308 448067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be pretty surprised if gets was inlined. < 1566094321 404682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust seems to be pretty bad at custom allocators or unusual allocation strategies. < 1566094325 86612 :botnick!~botuser@bl14-199-237.dsl.telepac.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1566094340 164714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so would I, mostly because that function is such a bad idea that I doubt much effort has been put into optimising it < 1566094354 881421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if Rust's #[global_allocator] is stable yet, but that makes custom allocators very easy < 1566094369 64681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusual allocation strategies are IME either very easy or very hard < 1566094377 269440 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm.. < 1566094386 101899 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main reason I think that is that Rust is all about destructors, which muddle deallocation with other code. < 1566094390 37149 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought rust's allocation choice could be done per function < 1566094391 395459 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess not < 1566094395 459378 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1566094397 399365 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see why < 1566094426 493457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the issue there is not so much allocation but deallocation < 1566094439 364385 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there is the Drop trait, which can be useful. Could possibly implement a trait that keeps tabs on what allocator was used to make a object < 1566094439 988495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately those issues are connected. < 1566094446 613175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it wouldn't be too hard to give the various allocators their own portions of address space and use the pointer value to tell them apart < 1566094472 716023 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like you just want to do the right thing statically. < 1566094479 141823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, separately from this project, I had an idea about a very eso allocation strategy < 1566094485 215420 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooo < 1566094491 335037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're adding a bunch of dynamic behavior like that there should be a good reason for it. < 1566094497 129480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea was that all the pointers in the entire program would be doubly-linked < 1566094513 73344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, to point from one object to another, you need to point to a pointer field that points back at you < 1566094520 417583 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the cache would commit suicide < 1566094540 669694 :botnick!~botuser@bl14-199-237.dsl.telepac.pt QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566094543 574195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the great thing about this strategy is that you can move objects around in memory at will < 1566094549 783730 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1566094552 417864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you already know where all the inbound pointers are and can just update them < 1566094555 704309 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the strategy a lot of VMs use < 1566094557 439612 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the JVM < 1566094577 860960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I was inspired by compacting garbage collectors, the idea was to do the same thing without a GC < 1566094590 945014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if this is useful, and it probably isn't, which is why I described it as very eso < 1566094611 291760 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :reducing memory fragmentation could be useful if you keep memory organized at the same time < 1566094621 897699 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do a bit of the memory usage predictor's work for it < 1566094626 63976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see that malloc that merges pages which don't have overlapping allocations? < 1566094627 746615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is one of those cases where the advantages are clear but the disadvantages are terrifying < 1566094631 747201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1566094654 152772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first I thought "surely that isn't necessary", but then came up with some pathological programs where it is < 1566094677 785088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my current attitude is that if your program is doing zillions of little mallocs and frees everywhere it's probably doing things badly anyway. < 1566094685 872747 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1566094694 873715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. imagine a program that allocates 100 million 8-byte objects, deallocates 99 out of every 100, then allocates 1 million 800-byte objects < 1566094700 987788 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it comes to that, use a slab allocator for some of those objects < 1566094722 913210 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming they're all uniform < 1566094736 390223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my thoughts on the matter is that the only difficult case is what happens if a program deallocates a lot of small objects, then needs to allocate large objects that are too large for the remaining spaces < 1566094761 594487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the other cases are trivial by comparison < 1566094796 150898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this is a remotely common pattern for long-running interactive applications, but I can see a batch process doing something like that when moving on from one phase of computation to another < 1566094813 523836 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Dwarf Fortress has an issue with that < 1566094818 81897 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :albet with larger objects < 1566094820 55568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, if you have a random malloc pattern, there should be some sort of compaction phase whenever your program shifts modes < 1566094861 869383 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :in The Powder Toy everything is preallocated because malloc pauses are unacceptable < 1566094869 738872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this is what inspired the "everything is doubly-linked" idea because it's one of the only ways, short of a GC, to solve the problem < 1566094890 741000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that said, preventing the problem happening in the first place by using a more predictable malloc/free scheme is probably better!) < 1566094917 507975 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you know the max number of objects, then just allocate that, the linux kernel won't mind < 1566094930 990417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: are they preallocated /and/ prefaulted? < 1566094958 827484 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :not prefaulted, but they generally get faulted very early in the app's lifespan so it's not an issue < 1566094961 234003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :animalloc doesn't have any pauses other than page faults, and those will happen even with a preallocation strategy unless you prefault all your pages too < 1566094976 569266 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :could add prefaulting for fun < 1566094991 204319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that merely reading from an mmapped page in Linux will only fault it in as a CoW zero page rather than giving you your own memory? < 1566094996 9996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: it's one line of code < 1566095001 989555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1566095015 634560 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and that is? < 1566095058 855108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I'm wrong, I thought madvise could do it on arbitrary memory, but the most aggressive prefault it supports is a request to preload into /cache/ faster < 1566095082 238247 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok nvm it is prefaulted, we run the simulation clear no matter what < 1566095093 233716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap can do it with MAP_POPULATE but that requires you to actually be getting the memory from mmap < 1566095094 315417 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the action of wiping the sim should cause prefaulting < 1566095121 651036 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we technically "use" the memory < 1566095143 372748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…why are mmap and madvise not synchronized in what requests they support < 1566095188 644536 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :..prolly should work on reducing allocations in the game's graphics < 1566095212 404710 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sim is effectively malloc free < 1566095219 19140 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but graphics are pretty CPU hungry too < 1566095279 517020 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :..gah < 1566095287 571821 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :we still haven't squashed the malloc in INST code < 1566095307 937549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I've now implemented the 1, 2, 4, and 8 byte versions of this function < 1566095336 379054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -~ gets optimized to +1 only in the 8-byte case (presumably because LLVM can't optimize the - movzx ~ sequence when the number is known to be negative) < 1566095456 314065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one interesting thing is that the optimizer implements the comparison with 0xC100000000000000 using a 56-bit shift and a comparison with 0x000000C1; I can believe that all those leading zeroes are actually fastest, but think there miight be a better way < 1566095494 730939 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like it would be faster on Nephelem era CPUs, but not sure about newer things < 1566095504 168186 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Nephelem has some.. weird constraints) < 1566095578 682324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I can see why a comparison of the bottom 8 bits with 0xC1 (which would be mathematically correct) might be slower on some processors < 1566095593 672515 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could also see it being smaller code < 1566095600 878550 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ check if it's smaller < 1566095616 374992 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :fitting as many instructions in 16 bytes as possible is usually a goal < 1566095618 559643 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-right is probably 1 instruction, and compare 8 bit is another < 1566095643 477414 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fitting 0xc100000... as an immediate is going to be longer < 1566095678 413834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd simply have to replace "cmp $0xc0,%rsi" (7 bytes) with "cmp $0xc0,%sil" (4 bytes) < 1566095694 92951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as Hooloovo0 says, the only difference is the leading zeroes on the immedite < 1566095696 240918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*immediate < 1566095705 166035 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a subtle difference here < 1566095726 367135 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 32-bit registers and 64-bit ones are different, if i recall right < 1566095727 660479 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's a 32-bit compare? weird < 1566095749 40619 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. < 1566095750 949023 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1566095753 703181 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i see ASM < 1566095753 742981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: it's a 64-bit compare using a 32-bit immediate, x86_64 doesn't use 64-bit immediates apart from one instruction < 1566095761 105067 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1566095777 446366 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can you make a quick listing of the ASM here? < 1566095783 850095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov %rdx,%rsi \ shr $0x38,%rsi \ cmp \ $0xc0,%rsi < 1566095789 841201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I added an extra slash < 1566095799 573053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov %rdx,%rsi \ shr $0x38,%rsi \ cmp $0xc0,%rsi \ ja 2e < 1566095807 940438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then the value in %rsi is no longer used, nor are the flags) < 1566095812 942461 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't downgrade to a 32-bit register. < 1566095822 885305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: %esi is just the bottom half of %rsi < 1566095838 190982 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're treated different if i remember right < 1566095856 623598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complication you're thinking of is that if you ever assign to %esi directly, it gets automatically zero-extended into %rsi < 1566095865 310862 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahg < 1566095867 449100 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566095874 270063 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, i'm being a derp < 1566095881 942973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the /top half/ of %rsi is like a register of its own with its own weird rules < 1566095908 545684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meanwhile, assigining to %si or %sil does not clear any other part of %rsi, the rule's only for the $e* variant of registers specifically) < 1566095945 134254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a post recently about which amd64 registers aren't special-cased in some way. It's only a few of them. < 1566095945 248862 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last bit i did /not/ know < 1566095946 608619 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1566095952 509596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…which is why xchg %ax, %ax is a no-op, because that's a 16-bit write < 1566095963 450690 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose idea was this < 1566095965 72550 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: yes, welcome to x86 < 1566095975 254661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: six of r8..r15 are not special-cased, I think < 1566095976 433232 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all in the name of (misguided) backwards compatibility < 1566095984 429439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, r9..r16 < 1566096004 349205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember which two it is that are, it's either 10 and 11, 11 and 12, or 12 and 13 < 1566096012 171195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, https://twitter.com/rygorous/status/1162078329706405888 < 1566096018 665510 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, fuck computers < 1566096030 796443 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wait, writing to ax doesn't zero the top half of rax? < 1566096035 225753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right < 1566096043 925678 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor eax < 1566096046 709766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what I was missing when we had our nop discussion a while back < 1566096084 56672 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: i await the day RISC-V takes over the world with sane design < 1566096086 37150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 90 is a nop because it's special-cased, even though that instruction would normally decode to xchg eax, eax (this forces you to use a different encoding if you actually want the swap) < 1566096105 576833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 66 90 is a nop semantically, it swaps ax with itself and that doesn't have side effects < 1566096122 748980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although it's almost certainly special-cased anyway, that's just for performance reasons) < 1566096123 370543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. < 1566096133 153959 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I came across this fact once before but I completely forgot about it. < 1566096136 158224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a mess. < 1566096144 388986 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want RISC-V to take over the world < 1566096164 456969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why disassemblers can disassemble 66 90 to xchgw ax, ax without being incorrect < 1566096188 415331 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, risc-v is nice < 1566096197 382375 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has designed a risc-v cpu < 1566096251 401160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until now I thought that anything that only wrote to the lower 32 bits automatically zeroed the upper 32 bits. < 1566096253 224483 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a decently priced linux capable RISC-V board < 1566096255 886159 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i will be happy < 1566096312 213386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, the special-casing on r12 is almost forgivable, the issue is that some notation is needed to be able to specify not using a register; x86 sacrificed the ability to write an address that requires multiplying the stack pointer by a constant (somewhat understandably) to give the encodings it needed < 1566096338 195146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and r12 is encoded by specifying "stack pointer, except second set of registers" and that would therefore need a special-case decode to allow you to multiply it by a constant < 1566096371 4465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, both r12 and r13 are inheriting restrictions from rsp and rbp. < 1566096475 397265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came up with a new optimisation idea a while back: the idea is that when you're implementing an array of structures as parallel arrays (e.g. for alignment reasons), you take a pointer into the array with smallest elements < 1566096496 16843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and index into the others by multiplying the /pointer/ by a constant and adding another constant with an appropriately calculated value < 1566096515 840414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or if the arrays don't have fixed addresses, e.g. in a re-entrant function, another register) < 1566096535 257053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the non-fixed-address scenario this saves one register over the obvious way of writing things and isn't any longer or slower < 1566096556 5623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's really highly illegal in C, you can do it in x86 asm just fine < 1566096559 322044 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: if you think the base x86-64 stuff is insane < 1566096562 784739 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mess with SSE < 1566096582 228199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVX seems to have hit a sweet spot of performance and sanity, IMO < 1566096590 145674 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea, AVX is ok < 1566096590 206446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it started going back downhill from AVX2 onwards < 1566096599 840388 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVX-512 ;-; < 1566096607 122374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was wrong with AVX2? < 1566096613 334390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've come to the decision to target AVX1 as my baseline instruction set < 1566096623 500549 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gave a lot of integer instructions that were missing in AVX1. < 1566096625 514244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nothing massively wrong, it just has some jarring inconsistencies and missing features < 1566096648 297701 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the useless instructions < 1566096652 215937 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that only have one use < 1566096656 450466 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are junk for anything else < 1566096660 540417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A while ago I wanted to write vectorized code and I couldn't use AVX. < 1566096667 24710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. there are no instructions to operate on 256-bit values as a whole, only pairs of 128-bit values < 1566096677 48504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't shift the top half of a ymm value into the bottom half < 1566096701 700697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird, because you can shift the top half and bottom half of a ymm value separately into the top and bottom halves respectively of a second ymm value < 1566096702 454869 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :RISC-V's vector extension is looking really good < 1566096707 477561 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seen it, ais523? < 1566096713 371981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1566096733 183168 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/riscv/riscv-v-spec < 1566096779 871622 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great < 1566096787 818732 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely vector register width agnostixc < 1566096790 152389 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :*agnostic < 1566096799 952889 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that old code can utilize larger register sizes easily < 1566096902 41803 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :should x86 be considered an esolang? < 1566096917 425344 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly < 1566096923 821674 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :a esolang that everyone uses < 1566096980 506148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much less than C++, I think. < 1566097569 932576 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I would want to have is the bitwise operations that MMIX has. There is a bit operation extension for RISC-V, but I think the bit operations of MMIX is better. < 1566097587 277073 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least, for a 64-bit system, it is better. Perhaps for a 32-bit system maybe it isn't better.) < 1566097594 14506 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are MAK and EXT (MAKe and EXTract) in that list? < 1566097603 224127 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're both bitfield opts < 1566097605 385203 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ops < 1566097618 199471 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :really powerful, enough that they can replace shiftleft/shiftright instructions < 1566097656 280247 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are MAK and EXT doing? < 1566097687 669263 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also like the Muxcomp operation, described in esolang wiki) < 1566097689 629657 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pulls up MC88100 desc of them < 1566097810 303736 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/motorola/88000/MC88100_RISC_Microprocessor_Users_Manual_2ed_1990.pdf pages 3-44, 3-45, 3-46, 3-47, 3-70, and 3-71, < 1566097826 550050 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has diagrams describing operation, alongside text < 1566097887 134156 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have the order number of the page? < 1566097915 936956 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :one sec < 1566097954 12915 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAK is on 125.. < 1566097985 882006 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXT on 99. < 1566098034 908189 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that good, zzo38? < 1566098065 198915 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I own the physical manual, forgot that the PDF is annoying to navigate < 1566098110 193988 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is good < 1566098124 746229 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't read all of it yet though) < 1566098459 596805 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That MAK and EXT is good. (MMIX doesn't have it, but does have MOR and MXOR and SADD (MOR is very useful), and Muxcomp is even more general to do) < 1566098505 624407 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A problem with Muxcomp though, is that it requires a lot of operands.) < 1566098618 77180 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muxcomp is: Form a 5-bit number from the low bits of each of the first five operands to select which bit of the last operand to copy to the low bit of the result, and then the same for the next bit position, and so on. < 1566098689 930194 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or six bits for 64-bit registers) < 1566098765 433472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: doesn't that effectively implement an arbitrary five-input bitwise operator? < 1566098771 558598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the last operand specifying the truth table? < 1566098780 633756 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you use MOR for? if it's useful... < 1566098837 839284 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I suppose so, yes. (You can also perform a shift or rotate of the last operand by setting the other operands properly) < 1566098840 284072 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAK and EXT have the advantage of practicality < 1566098863 275421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: One use is endian switch (including PDP-endian). < 1566098872 988681 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are some other uses, too. < 1566098881 166555 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: aha < 1566098921 282419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while back in here we were discussing how Intel had added INTERCAL's select operator ~ to the x86 instruction set < 1566098974 33507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paper discussing it mentioned an instruction that's effectively a bitwise keysort; you stable-sort the bits of one operand using the bits of the other operand as keys < 1566099004 653334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hasn't been implemented but it seems like it could be useful < 1566099012 229564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a select is basically a bitwise-keysort followed by an AND) < 1566099019 105922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, preceded by an AND < 1566099276 568827 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566099355 322467 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do you know where I could get an actual Commodore 64? I need one for a project. < 1566099363 837094 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566099445 108611 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1566099446 585115 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1566099561 806395 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, I think it can be useful > 1566099746 404883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commercial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65539&oldid=65535 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+8) 10Formatting codebase. < 1566099824 74776 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMIX doesn't have a "count trailing zero" instruction, but it can easily be done with two instructions (the SADD instruction is popcount(x AND NOT y)) > 1566099826 294520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commercial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65540&oldid=65539 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-6) 10continue formatting codebase and move category to bottom > 1566099947 644094 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commercial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65541&oldid=65540 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-52) 10/* Implementations */ < 1566099980 92554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is that (x-1) sadd x? > 1566100005 507346 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ORK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65542&oldid=53698 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+13) 10/* External resources */ < 1566100055 710065 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. > 1566104060 93969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Camouflage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65543&oldid=30836 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10 > 1566104089 564523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ZOMBIE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65544&oldid=53713 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+20) 10 < 1566104916 567915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566110106 906161 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566112741 253346 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566116652 167257 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566116848 445467 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566117127 600690 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566118371 909986 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566118508 751445 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566118921 204014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566119141 586380 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "~b has to be a positive number in the 0..30 range" => I think you mean in the 0..0x3E inclusive range < 1566119263 74488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"should I write it as 1 + (ptrdiff_t)(signed char)b in the original source" => use an ifdef, with the original version inactive and the optimized version active, write a comment that it's an optimization, and then check that the optimized version is compiled the way you want < 1566119283 955030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, isn't it possible that this is a case where the optimization doesn't matter? > 1566119458 40842 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Edition14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65545 5* 03A 5* (+874) 10Created page with "Edition language Double speak example I"$R. C"F"0@i1@i Explanation I Take input "$ Copy the input's length to clipboard R. Read the current file's content into the..." < 1566119472 3023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the in-memory representation of a parse tree" => that wasn't my guess < 1566119538 330870 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566119621 597365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"having a separate call stack and data stack is a much better idea" => is it still, now that CPUs cache the top of the call stack as an optimization? < 1566119801 708882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: moving objects around but without a gc, "at first I thought "surely that isn't necessary", but then came up with some pathological programs where it is" => in the kernel, trying to free up pages when it has lots of individually allocated small structures fragmented around memory < 1566119846 696178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kernel people are actually working on that, and yes, the disadvantages are terrifying, although I think they're doing it more memory conservingly than doubly linking every individual pointer < 1566119988 975471 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi. Nice it’s calm and wise here as usual :) < 1566120050 458466 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was without IRC for two weeks and in some reason I’m still unpacking) < 1566120160 464451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"comparison with 0xC100000000000000" => that's because you can't have immediates larger than 32 bits, so it has to be two instructions anyway. that it's a shift of the input is still a bit surprising to me, but apparently that's how you can get it in just two instructions, rather than just three as in loading the constant in two instructions. < 1566120217 793073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :may also depend on the context < 1566120263 322178 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I played a game called Weave where you place tiles on a hexagonal grid, each tile having two points marked on each side and connecting these points by curved segments in some fashion as to make various intertwined paths when many tiles are placed together. Now I suddenly wonder if something can be esonalged from there < 1566120326 164197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you'd simply have to replace "cmp $0xc0,%rsi" (7 bytes) with "cmp $0xc0,%sil" (4 bytes)" => why? isn't there an encoding of "cmp $0xc0,%rsi" that has a 1-byte immediate? < 1566120357 249119 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns and “knottiness” of paths could be used for semantics, and there are only so many tiles available to make the composition not so trivial < 1566120420 32598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think I have already seen those tiles somewhere even before that game, but don’t remember where < 1566120486 248664 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it could be downplayed to square tiles if necessary. If anybody would be interested, I’ll link to that game in G.Play and/or draw examples of tiles < 1566120494 410464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would gcc even get the assembler to emit the encoding with the 4-byte immediate? < 1566120694 297947 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 0xc0 is too big for a one-byte immediate < 1566120712 370678 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because they are sign-extended) < 1566120749 778199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought picking immediate sizes was the assembler's job, not gcc's. < 1566120796 201664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but choosing operand sizes isn't... that's the point. < 1566120832 861633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah ok < 1566120840 419186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And intel only offers the choice between one byte immediates and full byte immediates. < 1566120855 826655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant s/full byte/full size/ < 1566120863 503367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: gcc would know what size the instruction has, in fact the whole part where it outputs assembly rather than the object code directly is mostly for human-debuggability I think < 1566120908 848217 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure that is the case. gcc probably has a good idea how big instructions will be, of course. < 1566120924 491468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I would hope it doesn't rely on always being correct. < 1566121560 361264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it certainly dones't have to know for rare slow instructions, because it can handle unknown instructions in asm statements, but for when it generates fast code, it probably knows the instruction size for optimization < 1566121574 119397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for x86_64) < 1566121600 834573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Sorry, I'll take that as speculation unless you have proof. < 1566121614 288946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unrelated, but http://www.wyrdplay.org/AlanBeale/CAAPR-ref.html is a small English pronunciation dictionary by the author of 12dicts that seems to be well compiled < 1566121656 755793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example, a key purpose of things like .align is that the compiler can align code without knowing exactly how big the individual instructions are.) < 1566121856 593336 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: again, gcc generally doesn't know how long the emitted instructions from an asm statement are, which is documented in the gcc docs because it also says that gcc assumes an upper bound and what sneaky things you shouldn't do in the asm statement to violate that < 1566121876 313818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and gcc probably can't tell the length of some jump instructions in the first pass < 1566121900 442860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, some of the assembly syntax is probably for humans, not for compilers < 1566121916 34266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, do you think the compiler needs both decimal and hex integer syntax? < 1566121952 986075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the .align too can be useful to make the assembly output more readable, even in the case when the compiler does happen to know how many bytes it emits < 1566121973 568926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus .align 16 is shorter than the assembly mnemonic of a 9-byte nop instruction < 1566122131 49268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or looks nicer, rather < 1566122133 378103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter doesn't matter < 1566122174 384559 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566123054 737806 :botnick!~botuser@bl14-199-237.dsl.telepac.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1566123084 673527 :botnick!~botuser@bl14-199-237.dsl.telepac.pt QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566126717 445813 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566126757 520011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Hecatomb < 1566126758 557255 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hecatomb \ 1BB \ Enchantment \ When Hecatomb enters the battlefield, sacrifice Hecatomb unless you sacrifice four creatures. \ Tap an untapped Swamp you control: Hecatomb deals 1 damage to any target. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, MED-R < 1566126778 385088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ It seems a bit underwhelming that they use the word "hecatomb" for the sacrifice of a mere four creatures < 1566126819 313794 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Epic Struggle < 1566126819 976972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epic Struggle \ 2GG \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control twenty or more creatures, you win the game. \ JUD-R < 1566127063 189551 :livesex_0699!~livesex_0@91.203.193.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566127066 722948 :livesex_0699!~livesex_0@91.203.193.59 PART :#esoteric < 1566127599 159962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The helix pineaple requires you to pay mana only, not sacrifice creatures.) < 1566130671 222236 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566130675 661677 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1566130727 51695 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: programming language only usable from last thursday to next thursday < 1566131253 85306 :dog_star_!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqansztzearqalna NICK :dog_star < 1566131352 198215 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqansztzearqalna QUIT : < 1566131373 184927 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qqwpcmuzaaorupje JOIN :#esoteric < 1566131407 535360 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi doh < 1566133436 627241 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cncoqohytlhpkouy JOIN :#esoteric < 1566133841 66179 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:553d:686a:de85:c785 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1566135384 84977 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07~English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65546&oldid=37171 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10this is a high level language due to how it looked like. > 1566135417 119205 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commercial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65547&oldid=65541 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10 > 1566135450 510962 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drive-In Window14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65548&oldid=65536 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+23) 10 < 1566135779 220420 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566135779 357333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566136083 256950 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566136186 83716 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1566136254 912092 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566136457 244211 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1566136551 902981 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566137061 969465 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566142450 573096 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566142627 912325 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566144616 142274 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cncoqohytlhpkouy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566147072 303844 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566147184 586899 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is thre a metric-only font format in PostScript? < 1566147717 916652 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566148226 996942 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuslimwkhyenvlrr JOIN :#esoteric < 1566148437 91414 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo < 1566148465 686231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1566148554 289515 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your favorite eso you've made < 1566148560 268814 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your crowning achievement in a sense < 1566148880 861055 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1566148898 842983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that I do not make a "crowning achievement") < 1566148907 583660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you mean like for overlaying text on a scanned image of a text? I think you could use a vector font where all the glyphs are blank < 1566148942 20347 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then zzo < 1566148942 375728 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566148999 193422 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you david madore , b < 1566149004 436506 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Actually I mean for use with an output driver that will provide its own glyphs or convert to some other format that will then be processed by something which provides its own glyphs, although it would also work to overlay text on a scanned image of text too < 1566149012 762875 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: No, I am Aaron Black. < 1566149023 294395 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1566149040 532190 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566149042 211986 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does everyone know you are aaron black < 1566149078 23634 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not < 1566149080 734112 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is big revel < 1566149107 763219 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but I think it doesn't really matter so much. I am just known as "zzo38", and will not confuse with other people also named Aaron Black, I think. < 1566149121 754026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok. I'd think a font with blank or dummy vector images would work for that too < 1566149139 870928 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice stuff aaron < 1566149154 456742 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also:i was asking b_jonas if they were david madore < 1566149200 635969 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer: of course not < 1566149204 117384 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, that would work, I suppose < 1566149208 611345 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oof < 1566149295 281519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but maybe otf already has a way to indicate that a font has metrics only. few people know how font formats actually work. maybe oren knows. < 1566149678 658148 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a low voodoo about font formats < 1566149765 955009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not surprising that nobody understand them: there's a lot of historical baggage of evolving technology, and a lot of useful optimization < 1566150246 744226 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566150385 202306 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566151135 614198 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566151749 182874 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566152232 210905 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also not David Madore < 1566152236 47665 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1566153580 460439 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566153845 412784 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1566154445 10218 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PureStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65549&oldid=41588 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+27) 10 > 1566154511 363890 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Super Stack!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65550&oldid=37526 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10 > 1566154544 539946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Super Stack!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65551&oldid=65550 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-24) 10 > 1566154668 320760 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Super Stack!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65552&oldid=65551 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+23) 10 < 1566154756 66010 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566154888 48203 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the font formats with METAFONT is good. > 1566155644 45466 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Emoji14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65553&oldid=46750 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+104) 10Adding some categories. < 1566155953 377917 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1566156070 530543 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Emoji14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65554&oldid=65553 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10Added output only category due to potential no input. < 1566156162 567421 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566156399 990810 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566156474 536053 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65555&oldid=65405 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+39) 10 > 1566156751 126828 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65556&oldid=65555 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+746) 10/* Emoji */ > 1566157081 543743 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65557&oldid=65556 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+91) 10/* suicide */ < 1566157165 207075 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1566157231 163785 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65558&oldid=65557 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+152) 10/* MATL */ < 1566157236 853089 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566157269 551088 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566158059 547498 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566158135 896238 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 the style has changed < 1566158165 537714 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :style? < 1566158194 618290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the webchat I guess. IRC is a pure text-based protocol, it has no style. < 1566158208 910305 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566158210 49136 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep the frontend < 1566158258 471550 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566158321 98241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sombrero: you're the only user of the webchat here, it seems. < 1566158356 73888 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1566158452 128256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But I'm not sure, some people are cloaked which hides this information.) In any case, there are many IRC clients. The Freenode webchat frontend is just one of them. < 1566158464 535420 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566158488 341776 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_clients <-- many < 1566158511 223522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I use one I wrote by myself. Others may also use programs not mentioned on Wikipedia, too < 1566158817 179002 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566158927 804846 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::v anyway, i would be very happy if take a look to a compilation of drawing http://vixra.org/abs/1907.0332 and give your criticss, It would be pretty nice if this inspires some good ideas to make new stuff ;) < 1566159026 384672 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(esoteric answers and comment are well accepted ;P) < 1566159443 770849 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: on freenode, the webchat cloak overrides the other cloaks, so you can't hide it that way < 1566159498 524528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566159522 431770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, apparently that doesn't apply to kiwi (oh I hate that client by the way), only some other webchats < 1566159533 454798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because sombrero's hostname isn't a cloak < 1566159742 617250 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566159804 244013 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566159952 469421 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566159953 50841 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566160421 679941 :sombrero!b5cb09ce@181.203.9.206 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566160834 899133 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566163315 529421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priests of Sun {1W} Creature - Human Cleric (1/1) ;; {1W}: Target creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn. ;; {T}: Tap target blocking creature. That creature gets +1/+2 until end of turn. < 1566163342 190388 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priests of Worm {1B} Creature - Human Cleric (1/1) ;; {(B/P)}: ~ gains first strike and haste until end of turn. ;; {T}, Sacrifice a non-artifact creature: Add {BB}. < 1566164353 601329 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566164365 272583 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566165727 937443 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566165977 278760 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566165988 631942 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1566167321 343006 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566167392 383855 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566167767 304349 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566167953 303674 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98c99.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566168431 816581 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this cards? < 1566168445 525839 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is cards < 1566168506 510288 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic: the Gathering cards < 1566168527 477583 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :og < 1566168530 680962 :andrewtheircer!4d2ecf02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.46.207.2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566168604 249327 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuslimwkhyenvlrr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566170283 906396 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566170314 557497 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566171544 533692 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566171659 619145 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1172:5930:431e:a597 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566171871 954221 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell sombrero what are polysigns mentioned in the abstract of the thing you linked? < 1566171872 319723 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1566171915 528192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566171923 637011 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566172008 631031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the kernel uses intrusive lists a lot so it may be that a large proportion of the pointers are already doubly linked, that makes doubly-linking all of them a little less insane < 1566172072 721747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "you'd simply have to replace "cmp $0xc0,%rsi" (7 bytes) with "cmp $0xc0,%sil" (4 bytes)" => why? isn't there an encoding of "cmp $0xc0,%rsi" that has a 1-byte immediate? ← no, there isn't, 1-byte immediates only exist as offsets of memory addresses (which is why lea is useful) and on byte instructions < 1566172089 822112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, on instructions like cmp that use a fairly normal encoding < 1566172153 270561 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566172162 660010 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they do exist on ordinary word instructions like cmp, but int-e says that they're signed so it won't work here -- I haven't checked that, it's really hard to figure out from intel manuals which things are sign extended and which ones are zero extended < 1566172203 768801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, it crosses my mind that you could go down to three bytes by using bl/cl/dl rather than sil, or even two bytes if al were available < 1566172218 768208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah, OK < 1566172221 860857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's often the case that instead of pointers you want to use some alternative like indices, if you have a lot of them. That already allows for some kinds of relocation. < 1566172228 83709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a simple rule for this, one-byte immediates in x86 are /always/ signed < 1566172260 496791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also exist for the shortcut %eax arithmetic instructions, but annoyingly not for mov, despite that a word mov with one-byte immediate would be often very convenient < 1566172262 501386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only time they're treated as unsigned is if the instruction treats its operand as unsigned /and/ it only has a 1-byte operand, in which case it gets sign-extended to its own length and then treated as unsigned < 1566172300 729429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: including one-byte offsets for memory operands? < 1566172307 994989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes < 1566172312 57332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1566172320 499333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why the x86_64 ABI has a redzone, it's to make use of the positive offsets on SP < 1566172337 940277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1566172374 956377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, a signed immediate /would/ work here, you'd simply need to do a signed shift rather than an unsigned shift < 1566172400 548152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566172419 427380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, maybe not < 1566172435 735504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because with the signed interpretation, you're checking for values between 0 and a negative constant < 1566172439 495004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't all at one end of the range < 1566172450 707135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1566172692 304381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that it's funny how you first say that x86 doesn't have one-byte immediates for word instructions, then said that they're all signed < 1566172733 459311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the way that memory works, I think < 1566172750 780194 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insert complaint about x86's insanity here. < 1566172775 675383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't lawyers have a phrase "in the alternative" for describing situations like this? < 1566172781 457207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it is signed < 1566172808 987532 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTC rollover. < 1566172836 810753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could say that you forgot that the 8-byte immediates are available for the general encoding of the arithmetic, as opposed to the shortcut accumulator destination encoding < 1566172900 491920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I think modern processors in general are insane because of register renaming < 1566172924 167784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilers go to all this effort to pack their nicely SSAed programs into a set of registers, which is an NP-complete problem < 1566172937 735931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the processor goes to a lot more effort to unpack all thhe register names back into SSA and disregard the actual registers < 1566172985 578879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mill people describe their belt system as "hardware SSA". < 1566173021 250147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's pretty similar, but also somewhat limiting I think < 1566173037 834404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer doing things the other way round, where each instruction says where the data should be routed to, rather than where the data came from < 1566173062 250619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that allows you to pipeline high-latency instructions, which is half the reason for the register renaming in the first place < 1566173133 742019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had a better x86 REPL thing. < 1566173146 732911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably write something reasonably easily. < 1566173160 402664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm repl, that's an interesting idea < 1566173191 131026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember debug.com, arguably that counts, but it was a bit weird in how it worrked < 1566173283 538877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any good debuggers for Linux? < 1566173292 873302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "good"? < 1566173313 813880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb is easily good enough for what I want, but may well not count as "good" < 1566173319 342268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm not sure. It's probably mostly a UI thing? < 1566173331 832559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ddd is a GUI version of gdb, but is incredibly dated < 1566173333 397120 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can figure out the things I want with gdb but it often takes a lot of overhead. < 1566173350 894005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also a lot of IDEs that run on Linux, of course; probably most of them do < 1566173357 988641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People say Microsoft's debugger is good, but I haven't used it. < 1566173389 613833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's integrated with Visual Studio, which IMO automatically makes anything insane < 1566173417 1478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've barely used Visual Studio. I don't know much about it. < 1566173444 289418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and that's made even more insane by how the intel x86 optimization manual says that the longer nop instructions use execution units and a gp register from the register file, so the compiler sometimes has to figure out which register a nop instruction should reference < 1566173447 614236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the last-but-one time I attempted to install Visual Studio, I ended up needing to entirely reinstall Windows < 1566173459 371188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The debugging APIs in Windows are certainly better than ptrace. < 1566173473 733645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, I like ptrace < 1566173485 788481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a bit slow in terms of how many system calls are needed < 1566173486 218500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange, you'd think they solve that in the decoder, but no < 1566173498 606736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptrace does approximately the minimum possible. < 1566173510 375968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: fwiw, I think there should be two different .align pseudoinstructions < 1566173519 971490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember all the things Windows does but they generally seem useful. < 1566173520 842141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one which uses NOP padding, and the other of which uses ud2 < 1566173527 579126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, Win32 VirtualAllocEx lets you allocate memory in another process's address space. < 1566173546 15751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ugh, that seems outright dangerous < 1566173555 675690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the other process is using a different allocator to the expected allocator? < 1566173559 548362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you're debugging a process? < 1566173568 39458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :VirtualAllocEx is the equivalent of mmap. < 1566173568 962865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ptrace equivalent is to force the other process to call malloc, which seems safer < 1566173587 825640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general I think many Windows system calls let you specify a process handle. < 1566173607 224634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even do a system call, when you attach to some unknown process? < 1566173641 633450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You at least need to find a syscall instruction, which could mean waiting for the process to do a system call, searching its address space for a syscall instruction, or writing one into its address space. < 1566173675 23088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's documented what you do if the ptrace is stopping at a syscall instruction, you just rewind the IP two bytes < 1566173686 974845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the process isn't stopped at a system call, though, you have to change the IP to point at one < 1566173689 393770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you need it to be in an executable page, which is often read-only. ptrace lets you write to read-only mappings, but if a file is mapped into memory, it'll secretly convert it to a private mapping from a shared mapping. < 1566173698 503860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is a system call instruction in the vDSO, that's the one I use for Web of Lies) < 1566173717 922602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true, maybe finding the vdso page is your best bet. < 1566173726 598350 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless the debugee unmapped it?) < 1566173736 667796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you just use /proc/*/maps to find where it is < 1566173751 999041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess writing a debugger for hostile programs that don't want to be debugged is quite different from writing one for your own programs. < 1566173757 551086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unmapping the vDSO is interesting, I didn't think of that < 1566173784 168821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ptrace doesn't work recursively, which means that you can make yourself almost debugger-immune simply by ptracing yourself or a bunch of child processes < 1566173792 455311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a debugger to hide from that, it needs to /simulate/ all the ptrace calls itself) < 1566173837 782071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think padding with repeated UD2 is a good idea. it encodes to db 0x0F,0x0B| and if you happen to jump to that with the odd alignment, it reads the bytes 0x0B,0x0F which is a perfectly valid two-byte instruction < 1566173853 107239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1566173869 203181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does x86 have an instruction sequence that's invalid from any offset? < 1566173889 935654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than the last byte, possibly, as there are no guaranteed one-byte illegal instructions < 1566173923 147797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you want an illegal isntruction? < 1566173979 490847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are like sixteen one-byte instructions that are currently illegal in x86_64, but they're all just reserved, not guaranteed to be illegal forever < 1566173980 567590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the padding isn't meant to be executed < 1566173993 156140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not 0xCC? < 1566174035 868813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, padding with 0xCC is probably the best < 1566174039 681051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 0xF4 if you're not in ring 0. < 1566174080 360376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should start using octal instead of hexadecimal. < 1566174089 207679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOCK LOCK LOCK … LOCK NOP is illegal at any offset other than the last < 1566174117 420636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So int3 is 0314 and hlt is 0364. < 1566174129 935746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(once you have more than 15 lock prefixes it becomes illegal for a different reason, but that's OK) < 1566174161 252148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more than 14?) < 1566174169 563413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :max length of an instruction is 16 I think < 1566174185 831322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, really? I thought it was 15. < 1566174191 271809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…wait, why is LOCK NOP even illegal? NOP is a sort of XCHG instruction, which is one of the few that /can/ be locked < 1566174218 887491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, because there are two registers, LOCK requires memory to be mentioned < 1566174221 845682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense for reg-reg xchg to be illegal. < 1566174223 219539 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1566174280 576583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while messing around with atomics I discovered that x86 has an XADD instruction < 1566174296 352599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is (r, m) = (m, r+m) < 1566174317 752272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :notable mostly because it's lockable and has pretty useful semantics for a lockable instruction < 1566174342 800818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I didn't know that. < 1566174388 572178 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it can be useful sometimes, yes. < 1566174389 82975 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :XADD can also be used to perform the fibbonaci sequence in very little space < 1566174392 506293 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a thing < 1566174403 794728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just two registers, I assume < 1566174416 555687 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I thought that too < 1566174455 128343 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, 2 registers fib. < 1566174475 87794 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically 3 < 1566174480 688282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the fun part is: can you do it with /one/ register? < 1566174481 652051 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 3rd is for loop if you want it to actually halt < 1566174482 352210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not as efficient as repeated squaring, I suppose. < 1566174523 633951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one loop iteration, that is < 1566174524 780370 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: quickly thought over the various ways to do addition on x86. My guess is no < 1566174538 762733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: it'd have to be a vector register I think < 1566174543 430520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two unbounded registers are enough for any computation. < 1566174556 401136 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of vectors too < 1566174560 804835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I wish I had a computer with even one unbounded register. < 1566174578 262781 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you need it modulo 2**32, or just the first fifty or so terms? < 1566174578 723102 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do. it's called RAM. (/s) < 1566174587 284790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod r/s < 1566174599 391709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the latter, then you can do a compare conditional jump thing to do it in one register < 1566174618 448485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly even some smart hash lookup table thing < 1566174628 96218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you need it forever, then it gets harder < 1566174650 137088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could use one 64-bit register to compute it mod 2**32: < 1566174654 1508 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no < 1566174662 425778 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib with a 1 byte value should be doable in 1 reg < 1566174668 649612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you can have a constant in memory < 1566174681 490215 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :because upper lower halves < 1566174685 677909 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the PostScript binary format does not include dictionaries? < 1566174690 861766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was thinking 32-bit integers, or even floats < 1566174700 821813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply it by a constant 0x00000001_00000000, then swap the upper and lower parts using rotate < 1566174747 285386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean < 1566174756 156720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply it by 0x00000001_00000001 < 1566174757 717393 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1566174797 352017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could do that even without a constant memory operand, because 0x00000001_00000001 is composite < 1566174833 550217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply by 641 then multiply by 6700417 then rotate right by 32 < 1566174837 543848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :start from 1 < 1566174855 367777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :low 32 bytes gives the fibonacci number < 1566174911 45209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering about a language feature which is sort of the opposite of the ones I've been talking about wanting recently. < 1566174920 882850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=715414 is slightly releavnt < 1566174939 425123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a type which can have values that are either known at runtime or at compiletime, and can mostly be treated uniformly. < 1566174956 722659 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example an array's length might either be known statically or be a field on a struct. < 1566174960 51480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, that also works < 1566174991 570204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might like to be able to write code that works uniformly in both cases. < 1566174995 455211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually AVX is almost certainly enough, you can treat %xmm1 or whatever as four floats, then vhaddps gives you the ability to add and vpermilps lets you move them around inside the register < 1566175000 413176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in each step, multiply by phi*2**32, add 2**31, then shift right by 32 < 1566175019 237018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'd have a "field" on the struct which just refers to a constant compiletime value, or something. < 1566175019 960248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also works with floats: multiply by phi, round to integer < 1566175026 183418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't work with ints because vpermd can't take input from an immediate for some reason < 1566175028 941755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :round to nearest < 1566175030 476619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there languages that do that? < 1566175048 678550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can only give the series starting from the second 1 though < 1566175059 82512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Rust does several things which are incredibly similar to that < 1566175075 234569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but might not quite have the syntax you want < 1566175078 201036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, do you have an example? < 1566175118 83211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can say print!("{}", obj.field()); and depending on the type of obj, that can either get a value of a field or else compile down to a constant < 1566175154 574632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case the function containing that would have a type parameter describing the type of obj so that the compilier knew which implementation to use < 1566175183 509781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another version of this might be a function that can either take an argument at compiletime or at runtime. (In the former case it could be specialized for that argument.) < 1566175227 784612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several of the more modern C-replacements (although not Rust, I think) have syntax in which you just write a function and can use it at compile-time if everything it does is safe then < 1566175247 279157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you have a length() "method" in your language, and you monomorphize polymorphic functions, that more or less accomplishes the same thing, with enough optimizations. < 1566175254 710931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, even gcc compiling C will generate specialised functions if the code implies that they might be useful, at a sufficiently high optimisation level < 1566175289 754028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right; one weird thing in Rust is that it's idiomatic to rely on this actually happening < 1566175306 671682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but that's another of those optimizations that are hard to get right in the compiler < 1566175307 908081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like something straight out of C++. < 1566175308 186293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. arrays have a compile-time known length but you'd normally write .len() to get at their length anyway < 1566175329 185649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Rust monomorphises whenever you don't explicitly tell it not to < 1566175344 474398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ people are all about generating ridiculously inefficient code with recursive nested structs that the compiler can optimize to something efficient. < 1566175349 89335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler would have to try to inline every call, recursively, to figure out which sets of inlinings result in a simplificatoins < 1566175355 225878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, that's very Rust as well < 1566175361 146462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1566175368 424632 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's not that great an approach. < 1566175372 847484 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just inlining single calls isn't enough, because sometimes everything is hidden behind several layers of functions < 1566175374 630274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the exception that Rust relies a bit less on the optimiser for it < 1566175384 734863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language semantics are such that the optimisation is more or less forced < 1566175492 643445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine you could say struct Arr { T* data; if length < 0 { int len; } else { compiletime int len = length; } };, or something. < 1566175500 832260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, I mean "T *data;". < 1566175538 78742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course there are more things about an array that you might want to be either compiletime or runtime. < 1566175549 156581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you could track strides for a multidimensional array. < 1566175570 926148 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566175608 674255 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, Eigen does that with array lengths, and I think some other libraries do too < 1566175632 135128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general I feel like there are so many different arrayish types you might want, which is kind of annoying. < 1566175641 807333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the Rust way to do that would be to write [T; 10] for a fixed ten-element array and [T] (which is a different type) for an array of unknown length, but it's trivial to write a function that's generic over both of those < 1566175668 169702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. by specifying the type of your argument as Into<&[T]>) < 1566175699 340355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: Array with static length; array with dynamic length; array with dynamic length and (static or dynamic?) capacity, which can't grow past that capacity; array with dynamic length and dynamic capacity that can be grown with an allocator (do you store the allocator too?) < 1566175718 878786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have come to the conclusion that it's generally incorrect for a method to require a specific type from its arguments, rather than a description of what the type needs to support < 1566175741 150265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that description doesn't have to be duck typing, something like Rust's traits or Haskell's typeclasses probably works better < 1566175791 905995 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:395e:78ef:ab2:ff1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566175809 958616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has three arrayish things, [T; len] (compiletime fixed length); [T] (runtime fixed length); Vec (growable) < 1566175822 882277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more than three but yeah) < 1566175825 817171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think doing too much monomorphizing everywhere isn't that great either. < 1566175827 279392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I think the "growable up to a fixed capacity" would be useful, but I don't think it's in the standard library < 1566175834 615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: three really well-known ones < 1566175841 617461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you get a lot generated code, which isn't great. < 1566175842 713270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of minor arrayish things does it have? < 1566175843 925465 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566175869 171380 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, those are mentioned on the front page of the standard library documentation < 1566175872 90543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Vec is only growable with a call to a global allocator, right? < 1566175882 643578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right < 1566175887 753457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general I'd like my libraries not to depend on things like a global allocator. < 1566175911 565079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/index.html#containers-and-collections that is < 1566175932 350678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, but if you want a growable type, what should it grow into? < 1566175953 644485 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's one reason I want "growable up to a fixed capacity". < 1566175954 590289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want one that uses a buffer you give it? < 1566175960 742407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, or that < 1566175972 454581 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yes, I don't know if the library has such a type < 1566175974 8019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could tell your caller that you need more space. < 1566175978 863572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could define one though < 1566175989 363369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I've been trying to remove doc.rust-lang.org from my browser history < 1566176004 199448 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm? why? < 1566176005 403614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't have clicked that link < 1566176010 403282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: well, I often develop Rust offline < 1566176013 128286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: use the forget feature < 1566176014 216275 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566176019 275437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a local copy of the Rust documentation < 1566176021 390683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do all my browsing in incognito mode by default so nothing goes in my history. < 1566176022 535201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I did, it's just a pain < 1566176055 177191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the really annoying thing is that I can't use file:/// URLs for Rust documentation any more, because the page crashes if you don't have cookies/localstorage enabled < 1566176067 140920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There's also the separate distinction of whether a type "owns" the memory it's referring to or not. < 1566176068 383311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think file:/// supports that < 1566176075 115567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm now running a local webserver just for the Rust documentation < 1566176077 513187 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: `rustup doc` < 1566176082 807872 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that not work < 1566176091 746976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: in what way? < 1566176093 43352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ouch < 1566176114 515422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's not that ouch, I've had a local webserver running on here for years because I couldn't figure out how to get rid of it < 1566176114 557809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Rust is full of ways to handle that. < 1566176117 175018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it at least has some purpose < 1566176123 855482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's only accessible on localhost, at least) < 1566176128 75409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but < 1566176128 670430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think e.g. Box<> assumes you're using the global allocator? < 1566176153 337270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: pretty much the entirety of Rust is about whether types own their memory or not < 1566176169 773103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, or at least its destructor does < 1566176172 94076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many methods have to be written three times for the three possible ownership relationships < 1566176186 407506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Box<> is basically the main API for accessing the global allocator < 1566176188 107020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that and Vec<> < 1566176199 627200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so them being tied to the global allocator really isn't surprising < 1566176200 638513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's not much point using it without < 1566176202 551404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet they don't seem to have great support for a lot of allocation strategies. < 1566176209 807172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a MyLocalBox or whatever for a different allocator < 1566176217 334819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1566176233 56007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically nothing in Rust's standard library assumes you're using a Box, it's always done with traits < 1566176259 575531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are standard trait combinations to use to say "this is a custom pointer-like thing" and then it can be used in all the same contexts that Box can < 1566176273 395292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I tried Rust much Box was called ~, I think (or maybe @?). < 1566176284 487034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was called ~ < 1566176285 208688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think @ was for garbage-collected or maybe reference-counted cells. < 1566176316 336904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays ~ is called Box and @ was split into Rc and Arc (a Gc was planned but they never got around to it) < 1566176327 487453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Rc/Arc difference is that Arc is thread-safe but slower < 1566176397 646084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Rc can be used in multithreaded programs but Rust won't let you send one between threads, it's confined to a single thread) < 1566176438 87463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's what cpressey said too ("https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-07-23.html#l2c") < 1566176441 248075 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pervasive reference-counting doesn't seem like a great allocation strategy to me. < 1566176472 89604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, I'm not annoyed by the language changing as long as I'm not using it. < 1566176488 799640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather they make it better rather than try to ensure backwards compatibility. < 1566176538 734198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: pervasive reference-counting is one of the reasons that Perl is probably unrecoverable from a performance point of view < 1566176567 756019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out fairly recently (in the last few days) that Python uses pervasive reference-counting + a cycle-breaker, which seems even worse somehow (especially in a language which could easily use its own VM) < 1566176587 675655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what does "use its own VM" even mean? < 1566176596 286839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: like Java has the JVM < 1566176607 667020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCaml's allocation strategy is really interesting and apparently not widely used < 1566176645 110372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in Java's case that means that the programs are compiled down to an executable that the VM can run, and you don't need the compiler, only the VM, to run the program < 1566176646 687575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is 32-bit aligned, every 32-bit chunk has a tag bit saying whether or not it's a pointer < 1566176657 781685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how is that relevant for what you've said above? < 1566176672 124027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think this was changed at one point, but for a long time Python objects that had a reference cycle and destructors were just not collected. < 1566176674 651912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that exact garbage collection is possible (not just conservative) and doesn't need to know anything about the structure of memory apart from the tag bits < 1566176708 736365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, the JVM is an example of something that can implement exact reference counting, and even things like compaction, because it has full control over the structure of all the memory stored there < 1566176725 185821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Java you can swap out GC algorithms without changing the performance of the program < 1566176727 768946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesn't it also mean that you can't easily have an array of numbers in a dynamically allocated thingy though? < 1566176737 775264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think reference-counting + cycle-breaker can possibly be superior to a GC < 1566176754 15172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: OCaml numbers are only 31 bits wide so that there's room for the tag bits < 1566176769 375084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ints, at least < 1566176774 562747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, so you can't have an array of proper numbers, only of OCaml numbers < 1566176781 187414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCaml has to do fairly insane things to make floats work with this, which is a major downside < 1566176801 872837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a cycle-breaker? < 1566176823 827661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: something that detects a situation in which a nonzero reference count exists only because of objects recursively referencing each other < 1566176830 367363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not because the objects are actually referenced < 1566176835 295107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and frees all the objects in the cycle < 1566176858 289863 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix the Rust documentation so that it does not use cookies/localstorage. A documentation page shouldn't require that anyways. < 1566176859 761395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: a would-be-thief that decides that if he can't have your bicycle, then you can't either < 1566176893 27902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how does it work other than effectively doing general GC? < 1566176914 675500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's why I think it's ridiculous; it's basically most of the way to a general GC with all the disadvantages of an Rc < 1566177021 476815 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, python can work with a pure Gc, and I think the python implementations that run in the jvm do that; and if you know that no dependency of your code needs the gc, then you can run cpython with just the refcounting, disabling the gc < 1566177101 132988 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use destructors and/or weak references to make the pure refcounting work < 1566177140 908264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://docs.python.org/3/library/gc.html#gc.disable < 1566177155 918981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't click on that if you want to use a local copy of the docs) < 1566177171 947178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have a local copy of the Python docs < 1566177181 859804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should, but I hardly program in Python < 1566177206 890424 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you program in a language all the time, you probably don't need the documentation. < 1566177230 645106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I had an idea wrt the OCaml way of doing things: for each type, identify the ratio of pointers to non-pointers in it (in terms of bytes), and allocate each type with a given ratio in its own arena < 1566177262 741006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/but/, you allocate the pointer and non-pointer parts in separate arenas too (the addresses of the two parts are mathematically related because of the constant ratio) < 1566177296 908669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, you have all the pointers in memory blocks of their own, so that you can GC them really easily, and don't need to waste any bits on tagging things < 1566177388 200565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another benefit of this is that it statically guarantees that all pointers are correctly aligned, without needing to waste any bytes on padding < 1566177418 940575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the cache effect would be, there are reasons to think it would help but also reasons to think it would hinder < 1566177501 459116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? flower < 1566177502 518906 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :flower. what IS a flower? < 1566177531 402703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, this is almost strictly better than the OCaml approach (which is already pretty good), the only downside is related to unions and other sum types < 1566177542 991600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are, of course, heavily used in OCaml, so that might be a problem < 1566177575 419908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, hmm, perhaps sum types could be references and the tag is stored in your choice of arena to point the pointer into < 1566177672 811812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCaml is the sort of language that really wants a GC, because it heavily relies on immutable value types that it wants to avoid copying, /but/ also contains mutable data < 1566177729 800897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that languages which mutate a lot normally benefit from manual memory management, and with languages which don't mutate at all, reference counting is a more attractive possibility than it would be otherwise) < 1566177840 911772 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think languages should mutate a lot when they can, but they always seem to focus on backwards compatibility. < 1566177856 186311 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why you should never release your software. < 1566177878 306156 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566177907 733009 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm increasingly of the conclusion the transistor was a mistake. < 1566177919 838832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hikhq < 1566177925 314050 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf < 1566177988 863250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want to design my language for me twh < 1566177991 558552 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566178017 489616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also do you want to see pictures of cute kittens < 1566178019 47594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Rust is instructive in that but I'm not sure in what direction < 1566178025 521167 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Between work and general life demands I'm doing well to keep up on developments in programming languages, really < 1566178032 855843 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, of course I do. Cute kittens are great. < 1566178042 784535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of people got upset that it changed so much before being stabilised, but OTOH it ended up really benefitting from the time < 1566178074 152139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think it's beneficial to really work on a project's specification before the first release, though, making sure it's perfect < 1566178132 873680 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still some things in the Rust stdlib that I think are kinda questionable... < 1566178198 17082 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What things is that? < 1566178223 684374 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allocation failure is generally an unreported and unhandlable error. < 1566178245 205533 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, yes, I know is more _ergonomic_, but it means you have limited options for handling that error condition. < 1566178253 832450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be a pretty reasonable world for every sufficiently large company and so on to use its own programming language, rather than everyone standardizing on a few. < 1566178312 208247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my experience with allocation failures is that almost every attempt I've seen to handle them is either equivalent to a crash, or more user-hostile than a crash would be < 1566178315 212574 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately there's a lot of nonsense involved in making programming languages which probably shouldn't be necessary. And also cross-language interoperability is often very bad. < 1566178339 749778 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it feels a touch silly in a language that offers decent error handling approaches, and doesn't have semantics necessitating always-crash behavior < 1566178340 387245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably /every/ attempt < 1566178354 986416 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For many programs, that is indeed the correct decision. < 1566178356 939809 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps most. < 1566178392 41893 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Rust it grates because Rust is trying to handle problem spaces where that might _not_ be the best decision. < 1566178401 504009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in programs where you'd want to do something else, you probably need safety against other sorts of crashes too, or even power failure < 1566178456 422156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, my guess is that allocation failure in Rust is a panic, which is just about possible to handle, and I'm guessing that programs that care about allocation failure recovery care about panic recovery too) < 1566178478 107421 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe there is an outstanding RFC for _making_ it a panic. < 1566178497 887447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it isn't atm? presumably that's due to a fear that destructors might allocate memory < 1566178513 679829 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, having allocation failure be a panic is probably a reasonable strategy for a lot of programs. < 1566178516 408013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be obviously incorrect to make it anything less than a panic < 1566178543 910098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as it's almost impossible, on most computers, to reach the point of memory exhaustion < 1566178553 232459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory is a shared resource, so the computer just runs slower and slower and slower as it gets shorter on memory < 1566178572 415284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of true memory exhaustion doesn't actually get reached because the user has started force-quitting things and even doing hard power offs before then < 1566178578 618970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my computer if a program uses too much memory, it just makes the kernel kill some other random program. < 1566178578 775711 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty frequently the hypothetical ideal allocation failure behavior is for a given task to abort, not for the program as a whole to. < 1566178588 437325 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but of course that's harder to achieve) < 1566178590 747047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an actual memory exhaustion only happens when it's a quota that got exhausted rather than physical memory < 1566178611 951279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are destructors a good idea? I can't tell. < 1566178618 439062 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: On Windows on the other hand, the kernel just reports memory exhaustion. < 1566178618 743859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my life got a lot better when I realised that I could just set a per-program RAM usage quota) < 1566178634 641321 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has strict commit charge tracking. < 1566178656 276101 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it's still hard to really get this to come into play, because the swap file scales in size) < 1566178677 484498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of bizarre that Linux still uses swap partitions instead of files. < 1566178704 740357 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be honest, probably the most common case where allocation is going to report failure is exhaustion of address space on 32-bit systems. < 1566178718 911861 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that one's pretty easy to hit. < 1566178747 716646 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easier still to have an attempt to allocate that would exhaust address space, while still having plenty after the allocation failed. < 1566178758 976107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: re destructors: my belief is no, except when it's syntactic sugar for something else (as is often the case with RAII), but for a slightly strange reason: if you have the sort of object that benefits from a destructor, you probably need to be tracking/organising all the references to the object anyway to be able to use it in a semantically correct way, in which case calling the destructor manually would be trivial < 1566178788 202607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: swap: Linux can use swap files just fine, people are just used to setting up partitions < 1566178799 52292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can it suspend-to-disk to a swap file? < 1566178809 75577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my main reason for having a swap partition. < 1566178847 514602 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if using a swap file ends up having a performance penalty over a swap partition, just because the Linux swap code is pretty poo. < 1566178867 41719 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't know why swapoff takes half an hour. < 1566178870 237436 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also maybe the file is fragmented < 1566178875 410363 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that swapping is _ever_ going to be fast, but Linux seems to do it a page at a time, synchronously. < 1566178886 584855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fwiw, I set my current laptop up with no swap, neither partition nor file, and have so far not regretted that decision at all) < 1566178887 695271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the reason is what pikhq just said. < 1566178949 118315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, you still get swapping-like behaviour at times of high memory pressure, but the kernel isn't swapping data out to disk, but rather unloading pages from memory that happen to equal the corresponding page on disk < 1566178981 798734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are two main uses for destructors, which RAII wants to unify: < 1566179008 401599 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One is objects on the stack, where things get auto-cleaned-up at the end of a scope. < 1566179038 361447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is convenient but I think something like Python's "with" or Go's "defer" might address it better. It's mostly a control flow thing, not an object thing. < 1566179064 556727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Java's try-with-resources fall into the same category? < 1566179077 812499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other is objects that contain other objects that contain other objects that have destructors, or something. < 1566179109 910925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the semantics: you write try (expression) {}, and when control leaves the {} for any reason at all, the ".close()" method is called don the expression; this includes exceptions and all control flow structures, in addition to just falling off the end naturally) < 1566179112 27215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the whole tree is automatically traversed for you when you destruct the outermost object. < 1566179141 887230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds plausible? < 1566179173 978430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, things like System.exit() can beat the try-with-resources and prevent .close() from running, but the semantics are that the process can't continue until your destructor has run < 1566179180 264981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's also the special case where you e.g. use a lock-acquiring-object and then tail-call another function and give it that object. < 1566179192 220685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably not handled with a thing like "with". < 1566179228 768060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantically the only issue is that it wouldn't be a tail-call any more < 1566179249 713753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the case where you pass ownership of the lock-object to the other function. < 1566179260 826162 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it can presumably destruct it at any point. < 1566179283 676729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… isn't the lock-object basically just a continuation? < 1566179301 817048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1566179316 176530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's more like a callback < 1566179459 842691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I have one very strong opinion about memory management, which is: for immutable types that never change, programming languages (possibly unless they're /very/ low level) should provide an API which from the programmer's point of view looks like the objects are copied everywhere and never have multiple references, and should optimise it behind the scenes (which may involve garbage collection or reference counting of a single copy or whatever), < 1566179461 198374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but should /never/ allow such objects to mix with any sort of memory allocation scheme that's explicitly controlled by the programmer < 1566179505 887504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1566179568 78063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the two cases are basically entirely different in terms of how you need to optimise them, and trying to treat them the same way makes both of them much more difficult < 1566179605 578163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, the programmer should never need to track immutable things, you can pass them around at will without any semantic issues, forget about them, whatever < 1566179627 410184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that can be mutated are both rarer, and need a lot more care, typically you'll have some very regimented rules for using them already < 1566179653 582025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe your "/very/ low level" boundary is different from mine. < 1566179686 611665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, in NetHack, keeping track of the memory management for every string in the program is a lot of ridiculous effort, especially when you want to be able to pass the same string to multiple functions or to the same function multiple times < 1566179692 550940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a garbage collector for strings would be really nice < 1566179727 246882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, a garbage collector for in-game items, monsters, etc. would just be semantically wrong, because you want those things to stick around until you explicitly destroy them, and the destruction has a lot of /logic/ impacts that need consideration by the programmer < 1566179731 936117 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a driver to use with Ghostscript to write to a DVI file? < 1566179766 112133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if the monster is holding an item, do you want to destroy that too? what if it's a plot-critical item that simply cannot be destroyed? you need to know where the monster "should have been" to place the item in the right location after hte monster is gone < 1566179796 832369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so things like monsters are part of the game logic and managing their memory is trivial because you need to manage their state in just as much detail, and the memory management is easy to tack onto that < 1566179875 278617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've also concluded that there's actually a third category here, things like "the internal state of an algorithm" that are mutable but self-contained and used only temporarily, but those are nearly always either stack-allocated or effectively-stack-allocated) < 1566179956 772610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could make exceptions for, say, treesort, which could in theory be stack-allocated but nearly always isn't < 1566179958 669801 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, is it possible to add drivers to Ghostscript without recompiling?) < 1566180020 372435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would treesort not be stack-allocated? < 1566180031 25495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or allocated in some kind of temporary memory. < 1566180037 631057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tree you're building is a recursive data structure the same size as the original list < 1566180063 587196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to express a stack-allocation of that, especially if the list is coming from a streaming source and you don't know how large it is, is incredibly difficult in most languages < 1566180090 554254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can allocate in some temporary arena or something with effecitvely stack semantics. < 1566180106 759327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a recursive function to do the stack allocation using its own call frames would work, but is inefficient due to the return addresses cluttering up the stack < 1566180127 518785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mergesort also allocates a linear amount of memory. < 1566180130 802631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd either need an alloca-alike or else a temporary arena < 1566180142 383987 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you do something fancy with tail recursion? < 1566180157 835648 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tail recursion is pretty pointless if you have iteration. < 1566180173 952992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just write while (true). < 1566180224 613470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way: I realized that "if" evaluates its argument exactly once, at the time it's executed, so it's a lot like a function parameterized on a block. < 1566180236 186813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "while" re-evaluates its argument so it's not very function-like. < 1566180238 899322 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess? < 1566180261 161088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "while" an exception among control flow keywords? < 1566180323 671053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : could you do something fancy with tail recursion? ← I was actually just thinking that, and did some experiments; my conclusion is yes in theory, but no using the x86_64 calling convention < 1566180343 426006 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, my real question is: If my function has user-definable control flow constructs, should they be functions, which is enough to support "if", and if so how should they handle "while"? < 1566180389 247017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need a calling convention in which the called function cleaned up the section of the stack between stack and base pointer for the caller < 1566180411 926331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this calling convention is trivial to define but I don't see any benefit except in this one massively specific case, so I doubt it'd ever be used < 1566180453 332205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the mathematical solution is call-by-name, and the practical solution most languages use for that is to take a callback parameter, meaning that your language is genereally call-by-value but you call-by-name just this one small part < 1566180473 718347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There might be more benefit in non-recursive tail calls? But probably you should just manage the memory more epxplicitly if you're doing that. < 1566180496 860947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, e.g., in C, the prototype for while would look liike while(bool(*condition)(), void(*body)()) < 1566180513 761150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a function pointer not a value, the function you're calling can run it multiple times if it wants to < 1566180516 908206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that presumably you're thinking of a closure and not a function pointer. < 1566180528 281119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would normally be a closure in practice < 1566180541 226386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't have to be, though, it could just be a function constant < 1566180554 974374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'd want this for an efficient language, where the predicate argument is guaranteed to be inlined at compiletime. < 1566180593 983812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a notion of passing multiple blocks to a function, you could just write "while {p} {body}", which maybe wouldn't be so bad. < 1566180608 609072 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the user defined control structures should be macros and not functions, and operate at compile time. < 1566180609 312515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, well I designed Verity a while back: intended for efficiency, call-by-name, callbacks are guaranteed to be inlined (in fact, absolutely everything is guaranteed to be inlined, which in turn means that the language doesn't support recursion) < 1566180625 424790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, it does actually support recursion but it does so using a recursion combinator < 1566180635 875121 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The macro expansion will then put in all of the correct code to make it work properly at run time) < 1566180656 76876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't support recursion via having a function call itself because that would just inline it < 1566180675 312493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd like them to be something between macros and functions. < 1566180681 980789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm, I think that might be valid syntax in Perl (once you change "while" to something that isn't a keyword) < 1566180686 840242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this just means hygienic macros, but I think it's a bit more than that. < 1566180700 197645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I'd like a block to optionally take parameters. < 1566180709 637735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you might write "for(xs) {\x; ... }" < 1566180728 401421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not just an AST, exactly, it's a compiletime object that can be called. < 1566180751 899025 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that makes sense, it could be hygienic macros that you can add blocks to take parameters. So, you can have anonymous macros perhaps? < 1566180775 596966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could, though it doesn't seem that useful. < 1566180798 118617 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think may would be useful. < 1566180804 456133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible. < 1566180842 357220 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: impossible to reach memory exhaustion => unless you deliberately put a memory limit to catch it early, whether by setrlimit or through the memory allocator function itself < 1566180842 899597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So my old language idea is, you have an operator that captures "the rest of block" and passes it as an argument to an expression. < 1566180863 767654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead of writing "if(p) { body }", you can write "{ if(p)`; body }" < 1566180882 61373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I do agree that it's usually not worth to handle an out of memory condition other than guaranteeing that it will crash properly rather than randomly corrupt memory < 1566180893 140877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, this is why I have a setrlimit on every program I start from the command line by default nowadays < 1566180908 504556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also instead of writing "for(xs) {\x; ... }", you can write "{ x := for(xs)`; ... }" < 1566180916 847169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to catch fast memory leaks in programs I write, which I'd nearly always be running from the command line) < 1566180957 864077 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're using this idea, you could maybe have "while" pass a special block that breaks from the loop when you pass it false. Then you could have "{ while`(p); body }". < 1566180971 529771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like this, though, it seems pretty complicated. < 1566180993 694785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: last time we discussed this, I think we had a debate about if it was a monad or not < 1566181004 362852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current thoughts on this is that it works very well for if-like things but much less well for while-like things < 1566181010 973411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about for-like things? < 1566181035 658914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsure, but currently leaning towards working < 1566181059 820212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it works quite well for "{ loop`; ... }" and "{ x := for(xs)`; ... }" < 1566181076 582759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is nicer than almost any "for" construct in any language. < 1566181106 461198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example I don't think anyone has a nice way to express "{ x := for(ns)` + 1; ... }" < 1566181108 102461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I think "each" is a good name for it in this context < 1566181118 371234 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, "each" is good. < 1566181158 271939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also generalises to "any" loops pretty well, but those aren't in common use (maybe they should be) < 1566181159 912718 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also write "{ x := for(xs)`; y := for(ys)`; if(x < y)`; ... }" and get something like list comprehensions. < 1566181169 499170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are "any" loops? < 1566181176 557483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the loop exits unless there's an exception in the loop body < 1566181187 970435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is an exception it just moves onto the next loop iteration < 1566181193 659473 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you express the exception? < 1566181222 991215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it would be some sort of assertion failure, these loops are normally only used in declarative languages < 1566181232 819987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also write "{ x := for(for(xss)`)`; ... } < 1566181240 663858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've found myself writing them in, e.g., Java < 1566181254 630984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've hardly seen loops like this, or maybe I just haven't recognized them. < 1566181270 663225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where they're an ugly sort of "for (a : …) try { … ; break } catch (Exception ex) {} < 1566181272 214754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1566181282 861255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, no way. < 1566181300 42313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically use them when you have multiple approaches that might potentially work, and just want to find one that works < 1566181311 604849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think just writing a break at the last line of your loop is simple enough. < 1566181315 175346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's not quite right, because if /every/ iteration fails you want to throw an exception < 1566181335 259097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally that's a combination of all the others, but I haven't yet seen a language that does that < 1566181355 855322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably related to Python-style for-else. < 1566181357 708329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"could not communicate by TCP because the socket is closed, nor via carrier pigeon because no pigeons were available" < 1566181370 301391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting how for-else works < 1566181383 94170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to think it was bizarre but now I think it's very natural. < 1566181393 236074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it that the else block only runs if the loop has no iterations? < 1566181395 749859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though possibly it's even more natural to express it directly with my language idea. < 1566181412 545658 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The else block runs if the loop exits via the condition, instead of a break. < 1566181439 865504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, I do like that < 1566181442 935467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the terminology is insane though < 1566181454 683074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the semantics are useful < 1566181473 116287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oddly, I think it's the "break" I disagree with here rather than the "else" < 1566181484 791425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "break" is indicating "found"/"success" which the word "break" doesn't really imply < 1566181494 681751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my language thing, you can label blocks with, say, @, and the label lets you exit them. < 1566181496 375066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(likewise, "continue" is indicating failure) < 1566181505 10923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps "done" is a good name for "break" < 1566181524 295263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I keep forgetting how for-else works" => isn't that because there are at least two unrelated things with a name similar to them? < 1566181544 710385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "{ x := for(xs)`; ... }" actually means somthing like: { break := @`; x := for(xs)`; continue := @`; ... } < 1566181640 292033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd prefer "break" or "last" (especially if you have the full quadruplet "retry/redo/next/last"), because "done" is already used in a conflicting sense in sh < 1566181646 422343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you wrote "for (xs) { body } else { notfound }" explicitly, it would be something like: { done := @`; { x := for(xs)`; continue := @`; ... }; notfound } < 1566181684 895787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares about sh? The only good thing about sh syntax is the way it handles variables. < 1566181823 654945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what does retry do? < 1566181885 152142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: jumps to right before the start of the loop. not the start of the loop body, the start of the whole loop < 1566181986 881407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat, that's a possibility I hadn't thought of < 1566182001 369433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I sort-of want a control flow operator to go back to the previous loop iteration < 1566182027 988731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: jumps to right before the start of the loop. not the start of the loop body, the start of the whole loop < 1566182048 314015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you sent the wrong line? < 1566182053 548730 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sorry < 1566182080 118070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's redo? < 1566182105 425878 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to wrap head around this < 1566182137 826182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: repeats the current loop iteration < 1566182155 843327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's basically a goto to the start of the block, without increasing the loop counter or anything like that < 1566182190 142967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used it a few times but it doesn't seem massively useful < 1566182216 356818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way both break and continue are forward jumps, and only the loop construct itself does a backward jump. < 1566182242 843619 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented Z-machine in C, JavaScript, and Glulx; now I do in PostScript. Later, I could try other stuff, such as PC, and Famicom (which I have started to do some time ago but haven't finished it), and possibly others too. What others will you implement Z-machine on? < 1566182248 410249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's debatable where continue jumps to < 1566182272 316791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it's observable whether it's a forwards or backwards jump (and at the asm level, backwards is normally more efficient unless the loop entry has been unrolled) < 1566182284 56100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C standard defines it as a forward jump. < 1566182297 702418 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think that's a much more sensible definition. < 1566182320 667117 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, forward jump is sense, and then the optimizer could alter it < 1566182361 120461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can label all the points in a loop to support these behaviors. < 1566182383 720563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in BF, is ] a conditional or unconditional jump? < 1566182393 230433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ @break; forever`; @retry; { @thing; forever`; @redo; x := for(xs)`; { @continue; BODY; }; thing; }; break; } < 1566182399 190500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can even make the argument that ] is conditional but [ is unconditional) < 1566182445 217680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does thing do? I'm still getting used to this notation < 1566182477 552506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It exits the loop when you haven't used redo. < 1566182503 619115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably a better way to express this. < 1566182600 140390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see what that operation doesn't have a standard name :-D < 1566182636 544814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a more normal notation, the labels go here: retry: while(condition) { redo: BODY; continue:; } break:; < 1566182693 824213 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like break-from-named-block much more than goto for control flow. < 1566182715 634582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably doesn't clarify things here, though. < 1566182735 117557 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think this is a good argument for retry/redo being confusing.) < 1566182786 530786 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer goto rather than named continue/break. < 1566182814 612194 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer named continue/break < 1566182818 965559 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :goto has too many ways to be evil < 1566182863 930560 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even wonder whether you should just not have continue/break and be explicit about writing the labels when you want them. < 1566182908 695699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Well, so does any other feature, I think. < 1566182910 909630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the only situation in which I find myself tempted to use goto, and it clearly isn't a standin for a missing control structure, is when you have lots of if statements with the same body but they're scattered around the function so you can't combine the conditions, and they're too tightly tied to local variables to extract into a function < 1566182918 569647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use temporary booleans for that instead but I think the goto is clearer < 1566182938 76592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I think there are also other situations where goto is clearer. < 1566182939 553964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This sounds like a use case for the "blocks" I was describing earlier. < 1566182944 396716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think the issue is that the loops are too generically named < 1566182983 794968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have once written how to convert a program with goto so that it only uses labeled continue/break, which, for example can be used with JavaScript. < 1566182990 943256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like Python's for-else has a clearly defined intended use, Haskell's map also has a clearly defined intended use, but both operations become a for loop in most languages even though they function very differently < 1566183017 474228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like continue and break have unclear semantics because the loops they're short-circuiting/exiting have varying semantics < 1566183059 876660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With your goto notation, for (x in xs) { BODY } else { ELSE } is "for (x in xs) { BODY; continue: }; ELSE; break: " < 1566183101 939864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566183116 556446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a label before the ELSE should probably be called "fail" < 1566183223 711067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, { x := for(xs)`; if(valid(x))`; switch(x)`; { case(A)`; ... }; { case(B)`; ... } } < 1566183226 652258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So flat. < 1566183261 353525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (x in xs) { if (valid(x)) { switch(x) { Case A: ...; Case B: ... } } } < 1566183335 529618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's semantically correct but isn't it basically an if/else chain? < 1566183354 874238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The switch part? Sure. < 1566183358 862420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original purpose of a switch was to hint to a compiler that it might want to make a jump table < 1566183373 408497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess that nowadays, maybe switches are just syntactic sugar for the if/else chain < 1566183564 285018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I don't believe in exceptions so you'd need some other way to express "any". < 1566183592 538523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might reasonable to say that the loop breaks by default and you can explicitly tell it to continue instead. < 1566183616 814766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seems infrequent enough that you can probably just write out the control flow yourself? < 1566183624 885015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm using "exception" in a general sense, it's any situation where the code says "OK, this won't work" < 1566183639 582293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1566183639 958028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people normally just use "continue" for failures and "break" for successes < 1566183650 659955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then an any loop is just a regular for loop < 1566183657 705707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can require an "else" clause for "any" loops. < 1566184736 682227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566187427 185924 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566187782 340464 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566187880 15876 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1566188660 929369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ADxc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65559 5* 03A 5* (+467) 10Created page with "==Example== Suppose your snippets were AD, xc, 123, and ;l. Then: * AD should produce 1 * [[ADxc]] should produce 2 * ADxc123 should produce 3 * and ADxc123;l should produce..." > 1566192179 450208 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07JUMP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65560&oldid=41105 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+66) 10Adding some category. > 1566192255 354952 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65561&oldid=40466 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+22) 10 > 1566192498 826237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07JUMP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65562&oldid=65560 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+34) 10Woosh > 1566192693 769611 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65563&oldid=64960 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+84) 10/* Jug */ > 1566192753 198041 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65564&oldid=65563 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+2) 10/* JUMP */ > 1566195362 495869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65565&oldid=65564 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+207) 10My implementation of truth machine in emoji-gramming. > 1566196059 267665 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65566&oldid=63931 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+80) 10formatting codebase and adding categories. > 1566196217 554913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65567&oldid=65558 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+43) 10/* Trigger */ > 1566196301 355487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65568&oldid=65565 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-6) 10/* Turth-machine */ > 1566196556 961752 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65569&oldid=65566 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+45) 10 > 1566198239 169255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Capuirequiem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65570&oldid=58513 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10/* External resources */ > 1566198309 668777 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RETURN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65571&oldid=38078 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+13) 10/* External resources */ > 1566198413 663495 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65572&oldid=52918 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10/* External resources */ < 1566198670 754461 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566198896 553255 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1566198952 41440 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CopyPasta Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65573&oldid=56021 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+13) 10 < 1566201204 218855 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566203127 292582 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566203172 561492 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566203261 736644 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566203391 772637 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566205756 204297 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566208429 166188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's how I think of it. imagine added labels like A: for (init; cond; step) { B: body; C: } D: < 1566208447 996366 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then retry/goto jumps to A, redo jumps to B, next/continue jumps to C, last/break jumps to D < 1566211423 922454 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, these polysigns are simply amateur algebra (bordering crackpottery), bleh. We take a vector space spanned by e[0], …, e[n−1], add a product e[i] e[j] = e[(i + j) mod n] and factor it all so e1 + … + en = 0. Why don’t people read good math textbooks and speak the consensus language < 1566211486 973501 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polysigns? < 1566211532 6269 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though an analysis paper by Hagen von Eitzen doesn’t go in this straightforward way so IDK, maybe one can’t factor an algebra this way < 1566211618 460161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: a person named sombrero posted a link on some images hosted on vixra ≈yesterday. I didn’t look at them but I saw that word in the abstract and went investigating what it is < 1566211647 669045 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, my expectations were confirmed < 1566211696 221012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(amateur math with crackpotish philosophical claims) < 1566211722 29779 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also an old one: the analysis paper is 2009 < 1566211748 696516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Where that expands further to A: init; while (cond) { B: body; C: step; } D: presumably < 1566211766 455162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1566211775 166746 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear algebra is sufficient to do many many things people try to invent < 1566211805 455019 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course it’s a trivial statement here) < 1566211818 447898 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not somewhere there) < 1566211821 751216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well actually more like A: { init; while (cond) { B: body; C: step; } } D: if you care about the scope of the variables declared in init < 1566211938 365026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the nice things about my system is that many things gets correctly scoped by default. < 1566211968 206778 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of Go-style "if x := e; p(x) { ... }" you can just write "{ x := e; if(p(x))`; ... }" < 1566211972 505156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :get < 1566211996 84488 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ah, now I see the author uses a R[x] as a base because its multiplication is almost right) < 1566212047 55834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "if x:= e; p(x) { ... }" is actual syntax? < 1566212080 527640 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks odd to me because in ruby (and julia too) the semicolon would end the condition and start the loop body, but I guess it makes sense because sh works that way too < 1566212090 189583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's syntax in Go, yes. < 1566212111 160227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sh syntax for while loops allows you to put multiple statements in the condition too, which means you can put the test anywhere in the middle of the loop, you don't need a separate do-while loop or if-break < 1566212121 409469 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something like "if (auto x = e; p(x)) { ... }" is syntax in recent C++ too. < 1566212145 401239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: dunno, I can't follow that < 1566212177 761436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in perl you can write { my $x = e; p(x) or last; body } < 1566212189 952222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just declares something that's only in the scope of the if. < 1566212310 895680 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it means the same as { x := e; if (p(x)) { ... } } < 1566212420 76315 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fnsmdxsfkpisygab QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566212875 298269 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-rlhsvfwjxoccdzaj JOIN :#esoteric < 1566213172 140601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this looks like a good preamble for a SMETANA program to me :) Step 1. Swap step 1 with step 2. Step 2. Go to step 1. < 1566213534 101505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine an alternate universe where English didn't become a lingua franca, so there are entire libraries where all the identifiers are in German, ones where all of them are Russian, ones where all of them are in French, < 1566213559 730127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you sometimes end up with names mixing words from different languages because the concept has a name popularized by an earlier library, < 1566213579 258619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps the oldest libraries with the worst names, like ncurses in our world, would even be all in latin. < 1566213617 403262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ironic that you're calling English a "lingua franca" in that description. < 1566213635 373340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some libraries with English names would appear too. < 1566213670 488552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd have to learn the basics of three or four different languages to understand source code, which was basically the status of scientific research in the 1960s < 1566213760 699914 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fenestram_crea < 1566213826 933655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you'd probably have to know not only the root words, but also conjugation in latin, french, italian, german, and russian to be able to guess the spelling of identifiers if you want to write code < 1566213841 787654 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds fun, we should make this happen < 1566213879 966053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sure, but do it in a modern way, where latin is excluded but instead we have chinese identifiers too < 1566213907 143990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean using latin directly is excluded, we can still have the french and italian and portugeese identifiers of course < 1566213916 872329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and englihs) < 1566214097 327843 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, a lot of libraries are American, so would naturally be written in English < 1566214104 201865 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe Spanish or Navajo or something < 1566214149 406494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we may have some short identifiers that are ambiguous because they mean something different depending on what language you're reading them in < 1566214156 808501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if we can engineer such a situation in common keywords < 1566214237 249049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zodiac < 1566214238 318902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zodiac? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566214239 872764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? signs < 1566214241 256853 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :signs? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566214242 248418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? signs of the zodiac < 1566214243 308086 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :signs of the zodiac? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566214294 402656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I just realized that SMETANA may just be powerful enough to write a quine in. (But I'm targeting SMETANA To Infinity! for now.) < 1566214348 893908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if we steal the output instruction from S2I that is. < 1566214359 532570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output, no quine... :) < 1566214377 553479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you just put the quine in memory? < 1566214385 752921 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, in the text section. < 1566214422 871391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe you should refresh your memory (no pun intended) on what SMETANA is. < 1566214517 947663 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tha handle transform tool in gimp 2.10 is such a blessing, it was so hard to do proper alignments of multiple pictures with affine or perspective transforms before that < 1566214534 762383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SMETANA suffers from being a finite state machine; all data has to be encoded somehow in the program itself as written. So you need some serious compression to allow the program to contain a representation of itself, which stretches the term "quine" beyond the limits I'm willing to allow.) < 1566214642 422814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it stretch the term "quine"? < 1566214643 322598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Of course we could define other output conventions without extending the language... like looking at the trace and mapping certain predetermined addresses to characters. < 1566214658 952381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I didn't even know about SMETANA until I looked it up 25 minutes ago. < 1566214697 184742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I was making a general joke that is equally bad in any language. < 1566214730 692688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The joke is, define "output" to be some region of memory. At program startup, the program is loaded into memory, and therefore you can define that region to be the output and call it a quine.) < 1566214767 13938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, I don't know how to delineate decompression and a BASIC-style 'LIST' function that makes quines trivial. < 1566214808 142656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1566214812 543190 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Mon Aug 19 04:40:08 2019 < 1566214828 237505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getting worse < 1566214838 773123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ fungot, is j-bot here? < 1566214839 362340 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not very quickly, and it has a non-real-time gc, but that's just what the user expected type character, got ' ( 1 2 3) < 1566214977 742168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot's almost making sense again (though I guess that last part is closer to Lisp than to J?) < 1566214978 64749 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: lms that doesn't violate her fnord, either. probably still aren't. is slib standard? < 1566215010 921308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, the moment of clarity has passed < 1566215188 752720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Was that Lisp or J? < 1566215188 931108 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ( define ( get-move-console) count)). the funge-98 standard is also written in scheme < 1566215204 308589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: the reason why people don't take you seriously is that you aren't using the One True Style for formatting your code. don't put whitespace after the left parenthesis or after the quote < 1566215204 626552 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: goes where no other music fnord or has been in jail. we went to another bar. then we only need to cons stuff onto the top of < 1566216472 161921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :peksy arthropods, thinking that I invited them just because I left food open on the counter < 1566216506 502647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want food, buy your own, darn it < 1566216645 522405 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566216649 690585 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'hi' < 1566216650 361099 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: hi < 1566216698 630307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, thanks < 1566217005 43558 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566217812 729674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a strongly typed golf language where, if your code isn't well-typed, it tries to put extra stuff like parenthesis and other extra stuff into your code until it's well-typed, so if you use the type system well, you can omit a lot of things from the parse tree? < 1566217828 908778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :would need a good built-in library and good heuristics for what to insert < 1566217860 251757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and might be harder to program in than Jelly < 1566218010 67231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is there a golf language that is basically the same as haskell but with a much more golfier syntax? < 1566218026 427874 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think blsq counts as such < 1566218169 793610 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno either, jonas < 1566219173 332873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it! if a C compiler environment isn't made for hard realtime programs, then the library defines the PRIoMAX macro to "llo", meaning that the maximum priority that your threads will be able to run is very low < 1566219460 885505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` gcc -O -Wall -o /tmp/a -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n int main(void){ printf("maximum thread priority: %s\\n", PRIoMAX); return 0; }' && /tmp/a < 1566219461 981928 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maximum thread priority: lo < 1566219469 974518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's slight better, it's only low, not very low < 1566220524 417915 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) < 1566220548 10206 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566220653 533160 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566220654 203184 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@89.189.147.93.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566220790 839977 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oop > 1566222845 536779 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mid 5* 10New user account < 1566224194 134926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the We The Robots comics has ended the long hiatus, except it's not at the old address "http://www.chrisharding.net/wetherobots/" but at "http://www.wetherobots.com/" now < 1566224200 568150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't noticed until now < 1566224206 503999 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what happens when you break urls < 1566224995 75092 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566225057 501607 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABCD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65574&oldid=46025 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10 < 1566225574 441390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :question. is it possible to make a terminfo entry for irc that tells how to output colors and bold and italic with the mirc codes, and if so, will gcc output colored error messages in HackEso? < 1566225604 56522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if gcc's colored error messages respects that < 1566225654 233657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a terminfo entry once, but only by editing a single value in an existing entry < 1566225858 195619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should check the ncurses sources in case it already has such an entry though < 1566226485 696798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa... are the terminfo thingies no longer distributed with ncurses? where do they come from then? < 1566226917 222670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check what debian thinks < 1566227086 196092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiled entries come from the ncurses-term package, now how do I find what the source package is for that? < 1566227161 246888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the source package is apparently ncurses < 1566227213 736374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566227218 80782 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in ncurses < 1566227220 592038 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one giant file < 1566227233 752291 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :called ncurses-6.1/misc/terminfo.src < 1566227282 139710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is, can terminal libraries handle that the same code toggles bold on and off? < 1566227294 506926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the way how you can't put a digit after a color code? < 1566227326 979302 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, we need a filter after it, which would be ugly < 1566227353 325338 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess for the latter, I can just force put two bold codes after a color code < 1566227361 460426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for the former, just hope it works < 1566227852 678027 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iysxgalxowpkpzed JOIN :#esoteric < 1566227975 997887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that debian package ncurses-term, by the way, contains the _additional_ compiled terminfo entries, the decades of legacy terminals that nobody uses anymore < 1566228189 410326 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine if people started adding footnotes* to their IRC messages < 1566228192 5063 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :* like this one# < 1566228213 737707 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1566228219 678894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually split around the directory tree too, so the important terminfo entries are in /lib/terminfo , the rest are in /usr/share/terminfo , in case you're mounting usr late < 1566228233 101370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? footnote 1 < 1566228234 267256 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :May contain nuts. < 1566228239 120886 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i add meta footnotes* < 1566228241 595369 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :may contain nuts < 1566228382 662278 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? footnote 1 < 1566228383 809145 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :May contain nuts. < 1566228752 455993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you have a calendar? has SGDQ 2019 started yet? < 1566228752 541967 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wtf is that? that problem haunts me. i don't think < 1566228759 809501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ok < 1566229855 574431 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1566230599 957490 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1566230638 377425 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1566233562 376385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I take it you don't watch speedruns then? < 1566233562 833782 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: if i remove the fan, heatsink, installation instructions and finally the body is ( are) returned. this expression type is used at a german bank for financial simulations. but that's a mere one character :) i'm not complaining < 1566233578 984035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, 45 minutes is how many hours? < 1566233579 217351 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you could just select another transport module system in the works to start off by reading sicp or htdp. < 1566233599 244556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: don't remove the fan and heatsink! the cpu will overheat < 1566233599 394460 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is that what you mean < 1566233611 44959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566233877 99349 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfulfilling < 1566234253 316328 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566235149 273608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`footnote 1 < 1566235149 874062 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :May contain nuts. < 1566235224 165203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1566235225 846738 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is surprising. < 1566235275 204377 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566235452 532430 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566235829 68543 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1566236316 953045 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566237229 376518 :andrewtheircer!6d5da57e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.93.165.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566237765 210967 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 NICK :arseniiv < 1566238196 533868 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I¹ proved² the Riemann hypothesis³ false⁴ < 1566238230 951004 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the page is too short for the footnote section so no one will know what I meant < 1566238250 614403 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahaha < 1566238361 974104 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though one footnote can be crammed into the margin (¹ I — Roman numeral 1) < 1566238375 168539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/into/onto < 1566238376 504738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "I proved the Riemann hypothesis" [is] false. ) < 1566238411 623377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah yes, newspaper heading grammer < 1566238428 437202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. We can claim that this is a portmanteau. < 1566238444 874218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hypothesis and is -> hypothesis) < 1566238473 805419 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp portmanteau < 1566238475 298641 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :friend:friend is a portmanteau of fritter and rend \ ism:Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism". \ portmanteau:«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”. < 1566239737 303020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shoehorn < 1566239738 317726 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoehorn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566239745 222621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bottleneck < 1566239746 371963 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bottleneck? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566239977 828588 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: :D but is omission of this kind grammatical? < 1566240010 927730 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (hypothesis and is -> hypothesis) => ah, quite clever < 1566240047 38716 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can even claim that hypotheses < hypothesises :D < 1566240081 72390 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not, it seems different phonetically? < 1566240098 804961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: FWIW I initially intended to provide a footnote 4 that would redefine "false", but didn't find any nice formulation... < 1566240135 694845 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, false is true < 1566240169 592867 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though this is not nice at all < 1566240217 230456 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had in mind conflating unprovedness, unprovability and proved negation < 1566240249 275329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero is somehow relevant < 1566240251 136821 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decided to let it vague (v) for a time < 1566240509 635248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hehe < 1566240955 352168 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1566242765 533035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566242778 476835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1566242791 531573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566242815 271862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is there a strongly typed golf language where, if your code isn't well-typed, it tries to put extra stuff like parenthesis and other extra stuff into your code until it's well-typed, so if you use the type system well, you can omit a lot of things from the parse tree? also, is there a golf language that is basically the same as haskell but with a much more golfier syntax? ← yes to both, and it's the same language: Husk < 1566242841 887837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, let me look < 1566242857 919002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there doesn't seem to be an article on the wiki < 1566242998 449060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CGCC users rarely bother with creating wiki articles for their golflangs :-( < 1566243014 340890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they normally just link to the github repo to let people know wha the language is < 1566243027 462990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/barbuz/Husk in this case < 1566243038 316112 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566243064 743518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Husk14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65575 5* 03B jonas 5* (+158) 10stub > 1566243093 600516 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65576&oldid=65520 5* 03B jonas 5* (+11) 10Husk < 1566243136 414106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, not yet another golf language with its own custom eight-bit character set < 1566243182 868566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most golf languages do that < 1566243189 356755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because control codes are /really/ hard to read and type < 1566243214 273922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a golf language I'm sporadically working on has its own /six/-bit character set, which has the advantage that I can make it a subset of ASCII) < 1566243228 316600 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566243274 802832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's still better than if the golf language has a tricky variable length compression, so reading and writing it is more difficult than just translating characters < 1566243288 658642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a hufmann encoding or even worse < 1566243291 602696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with shift codes < 1566243328 692168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course Jelly's compressed string modes are sort of like that < 1566243906 761336 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-rlhsvfwjxoccdzaj QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566244019 530380 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566244032 160696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1566244299 939591 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-czajepotlypsxlhl JOIN :#esoteric < 1566245012 889655 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks for an interesting language! < 1566245042 972863 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though golflangs make my head spin, there are so many details because of need to compress < 1566245071 301243 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nondeterministic typing there is cool < 1566245120 283352 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hopefully it’s implemented in such a way as to not blow up combinatorily) < 1566245289 576710 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’d type overloaded multimethods using union typing, but am I right it’s not easily added to Hindley—Milner-like inference? < 1566245296 687584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might blow up at compile time but that's probably forgivable, golflang programs are short < 1566245352 223555 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566245401 808277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's a golf language that has a built-in that gets the OEIS sequence from its index, and to compute its terms, tries to automatically run code in the OEIS entry, so requires Maple and Mathematica plus ten gigabytes of other software to run. < 1566245422 336807 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1566245428 393022 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (rofl) < 1566245452 963738 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566245483 153221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course you download a snapshot of the OEIS at the time you build the compiler, so that it doesn't cheat by looking info up on the internet that may be newer than the language < 1566245605 746372 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1566245953 324518 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566245977 223044 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566246070 81397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think someone tried that once but failed < 1566246107 145891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better approach would probably be to encourage people to submit OEIS programs in a standard machine code; WebAssembly comes to mind < 1566246108 228161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this does seem like an interesting language < 1566246131 317451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does WebAssembly have bigints? < 1566246152 385843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a machine code, so not natively in the same sense that x86 doesn't have native bigints < 1566246158 829349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can run GMP or the like on it easily enough < 1566246183 926593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean as a standard library that's usually accessible or something, not as a "built-in" < 1566246207 161384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WebAssembly doesn't have standard libraries, you're supposed to compile your own language's standard library onto it < 1566246211 39302 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you don't have to bundle a copy of the bigint multiplication routine with the code of every quickly growing sequence < 1566246237 390739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a typical WebAssembly program is shipped with a decent proportion of libc < 1566246238 294156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I presume you'd allow a single object file that implements multiple OEIS sequences) < 1566246257 288964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess object files might make more sense than executables, in that case > 1566246324 575820 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Husk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65577&oldid=65575 5* 03B jonas 5* (+465) 10 < 1566246346 261627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be executables, that's not the difference I care about here < 1566246356 573136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that there are bunches of OEIS sequences that are closely related < 1566246368 727984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would be redundant to copy the code to each one < 1566246392 317862 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566246459 877082 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566246567 399877 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566247004 525278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566248936 531716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566249027 229790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, executables are self-contained, but object files don't have to be < 1566249118 610337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a program to generate ELF executables but it seems to me object files might actually be trickier < 1566249146 250694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe just differently tricky. < 1566249182 412000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tricky thing is that you need a bunch of information in sections for the linker to interpret. But it can handle relocations and so on for you, I suppose. < 1566249226 664695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you also emit basic debug information like the code span of each function? < 1566249236 643744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet. < 1566249257 970050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is sort of redundant because gdb can guess the function from the function symbols, without the debug info < 1566249270 970652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because the program just emits some fixed handwritten x86 code.) < 1566249297 866483 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do emit function information, I think. But the only function is _start. < 1566249335 785855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` objdump -d tmp/out.a < 1566249336 564005 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ tmp/out.a: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000178 <_start>: \ 178: 48 31 ed xor %rbp,%rbp \ 17b: 49 89 d2 mov %rdx,%r10 \ 17e: 48 b8 66 69 6e 61 6c movabs $0xa796c6c616e6966,%rax \ 185: 6c 79 0a \ 188: 50 push %rax \ 189: b8 01 00 00 00 mov $0x1,%eax \ 18e: bf 01 00 00 00 mov $0x1,%edi \ 193: 48 89 e6 mov < 1566249355 332213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1566249360 837612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of calling convention is that? :-D < 1566249370 554429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm used to seeing functions starting out by messing around with sp and bp < 1566249373 814371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but zeroing bp is weird < 1566249380 705672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it's just being used as a general-purpose register? < 1566249389 239252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's standard in the amd64 ABI. < 1566249399 277602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To mark the outermost stack frame. < 1566249403 672886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1566249425 593163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't the outermost stack frame actually need it as a base pointer, though? < 1566249476 910832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think _start normally calls another entry point almost immediately. < 1566249477 177421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that string says "finally" < 1566249497 285212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I initially misread it as "fitally", I'm not as good at converting hex to ascii in my head as I'd like < 1566249538 254231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… do you have an opinion on caller-saved versus callee-saved registers? < 1566249557 937034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint pack"q",0xa796c6c616e6966 # let's ask a computer to do that, just to check < 1566249558 588012 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally < 1566249558 733212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember. < 1566249581 451083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a strong opinion, at least. Maybe I had one in the past. < 1566249627 470534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone who knows more about register renaming and things than I do should give me an opinion. < 1566250065 126637 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot JOIN :#esoteric < 1566250155 539928 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's reasonable for _start to be special in this way because it's not actually a function. < 1566250181 809138 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm xor rax, rax < 1566250189 367548 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 xor rax, rax < 1566250189 963565 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :4831c0 < 1566250194 162876 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION happy < 1566250225 830296 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel style?! < 1566250231 698218 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566250254 50681 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 -s att xor %rax, %rax < 1566250254 194001 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown argument: s < 1566250254 232136 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1566250254 277392 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use --help for options < 1566250266 566007 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 -satt xor %rax, %rax < 1566250266 594303 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown arguments: s, t < 1566250266 632501 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1566250266 682196 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use --help for options < 1566250271 546236 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :): < 1566250284 240432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which order should I write the operands in in my assembler? < 1566250294 980261 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :radare2 on hackeso when < 1566250302 368034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: use NASM syntax, it's better than either intel or att < 1566250307 547027 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1566250315 230069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it pretty Intely? < 1566250320 587843 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's intel-like yes < 1566250323 116609 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :att sucks < 1566250323 564539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is if this is an assembler for x86 < 1566250378 200808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably I want to target a bunch of platforms < 1566250391 837999 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least x86 and ARM < 1566250403 840610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe WebAssembly? < 1566250414 149436 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://github.com/asmotor/asmotor contribute to this instead then < 1566250471 407767 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566250478 143467 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1566250481 128864 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good day < 1566250483 868030 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome LBPHacker < 1566250484 132860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should probably use xor %eax,%eax though, because it encodes shorter < 1566250484 974635 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1566250485 882799 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame moony for everything I do here :P < 1566250492 363659 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :): < 1566250544 221724 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why contribute to that instead? < 1566250555 13113 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, multi-CPU assembler. < 1566250569 437865 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :more assemblers is just more competing standards right now < 1566250589 199944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://yasm.tortall.net/ for x86 < 1566250623 241120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or invent your own syntax that looks similar to the others but is incompatible in subtle ways that are hard to debug < 1566250642 121559 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566250644 465218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I primarily wanted a library rather than something with a parser anyway < 1566250657 283912 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566250665 275043 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1566250668 971112 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :capstone not work? < 1566250690 928095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know? < 1566250699 12788 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, capstone's a disassembler < 1566250718 425076 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.keystone-engine.org/ < 1566250744 469471 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it's assembler counterpart < 1566250759 60170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for disassembling, you can try Agner's disassembler < 1566250779 694640 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :or http://www.capstone-engine.org/ as i mentioned < 1566250887 805929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one application I previously wanted a general disassembler library for, and it was kind of ridiculous. < 1566250932 186314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it involve malware research or kernel debugging? < 1566250964 794658 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the goal was to make a variant of strace that traces I/O to memory mapped files precisely. < 1566250976 888776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1566250980 260148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is ridiculous < 1566251016 993661 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to trace exactly which bytes were read from or written to, you need to disassemble the instruction. < 1566251081 464324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are some debuggers that have this feature. < 1566251081 933702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, or mprotect all of the mapped pages to 0 permissions after every access, and catch the segfault and see what the siginfo says < 1566251117 318889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the approach I'm proposing. < 1566251117 881021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, can't intel's built-in debug faults already tell what's read and written, and doesn't the kernel expose that in siginfo? < 1566251134 885450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly not stepping through every instruction, that seems way too slow. < 1566251150 479874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when you get the SEGV you need to figure out exactly which octets were read or written. < 1566251152 276019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has been reading the x86_64 ABI < 1566251162 136174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gives advice on how to implement exabyte-size functions < 1566251170 922766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what circumstances would require you to write one of those < 1566251184 410201 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can not imagine a sane one < 1566251213 925867 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566251222 975136 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do me and ais523 have the same name color in weechat < 1566251242 551527 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're alphabetical miles apart < 1566251255 429067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how all that x86 stuff works < 1566251268 62272 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it works via a generator that runs on hot garbage < 1566251286 973507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a compiler may have to, when it's forced to compile firefox < 1566251307 158611 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1566251313 23295 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you unroll a massive loop? < 1566251352 57442 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: help i need ideas for why one would use a exabyte sized functions < 1566251378 146445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have trouble imagining exabytes of data, although there are probably some companies who store that much nowadays < 1566251378 863954 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hwhat < 1566251381 697152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think they don't have functions larger than gigabyte sized < 1566251382 198449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but exabytes of /code/? < 1566251385 222556 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1566251406 666868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess when you're writing an ABI you need to take all eventualities into account < 1566251448 851250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, so that twenty years later, when the required hardware is available, different groups of people don't start inventing incompatible exensions < 1566251459 201579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I doubt there's any company that stores an exabyte of data on one machine. < 1566251483 509687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even in memory? < 1566251489 547381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that nobody does but I'm not sure < 1566251490 363325 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what happens if you give GCC infinite (to the max x86-64 allows) RAM and have it compile a exabyte sized function < 1566251503 233595 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the most we can store per machine right now is about 1PB i think < 1566251530 817591 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1024 machines per exabyte < 1566251538 866393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are definitely use cases in which you want as much in-memory storage as possible in one machine and don't care if it's lost to a crash < 1566251559 934806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: even a petabyte is a lot, yeah < 1566251582 760541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need 32 hard disks, each one 32 terabytes size, or something < 1566251592 526037 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm missing a lot of context here but iirc x86-64 supports an address space of 2**52 < 1566251592 627871 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the most RAM per machine right now is 8TB, assuming a AMD EPYC based server. < 1566251599 104479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: such as video games, sure < 1566251608 266932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: so not even in the petabyte range < 1566251613 729742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or trying to break cryptography stuff by building huge tables < 1566251622 848516 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is asof just a few days ago btw < 1566251624 240466 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are we talking possibly out of memory < 1566251636 317707 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the latest EPYC units were released, it was a max of 4TB per machine < 1566251655 760730 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: possibly out of memory i bet < 1566251655 837733 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1566251660 711673 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory paging/swapping/whatever < 1566251672 459565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: I disagree, https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-05.html#luc < 1566251684 711378 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 5-level < 1566251687 459271 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1566251699 725089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: it's the 5-level one that would support 52 bits I think < 1566251712 590126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current cpus support only up to 48 bits < 1566251739 563135 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I mean I remember 9+9+9+9+12, which is the 4-level < 1566251741 600536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: what's the most fast solid state storage you can have in a machine? < 1566251747 646571 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1566251750 68975 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many address pins your cpu has is another matter :P < 1566251758 96041 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, i know some servers with 48+ NVME slots < 1566251760 44161 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1566251762 685917 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok reee I'm dumb < 1566251766 820010 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :36+12 < 1566251771 514837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if your CPU is short on address pins you could always use… bank switching! < 1566251772 249867 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :see this is why I don't do addition < 1566251796 914863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it tends not to play very nicely with the concept of an operating system < 1566251808 458269 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: with a modern EPYC system, I think it'd max out at 128 NVMe devices, assuming you somehow utilized all 128 PCIe lanes from both CPUs < 1566251838 131729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: I gave up on arithmetic years ago, when I debugged a segfault for hours, then found that I allocated 8092 bytes instead of 8192 < 1566251840 145742 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, EPYC servers are currently the most capable. Perfect.) < 1566251854 497534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days I'd let the computer figure out the size from a multiplication or shift < 1566251861 319962 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. yes, that is why I don't do decimal either < 1566251878 233749 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1566251880 410581 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566251887 90493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: and how large can those NBMe devices be? < 1566251887 731803 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many SATA devices can you have per PCIe lane < 1566251895 569768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or write 0x2000 < 1566251914 427805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, that too, though sometimes I mess that up too < 1566251939 788124 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: also how many ways is the largest possible NUMA in a machine? < 1566251969 769405 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1566251989 585668 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno NUMA < 1566252044 9311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, the PLT uses one format for the first 102261125 entries and changes to a different format from the 102261126th onwards < 1566252054 911339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer hardware is getting ridiculously powerful. good thing I have my programmable calculator, with 2 kilobytes of RAM, battery-backed to make it persistent, in the shelf < 1566252055 394993 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think EPYC zen 2 server processors are one NUMA P each\ < 1566252060 23917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/shelf/drawer/ < 1566252067 229664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many programs a) care about the PLT format at all and b) are unaware of that detail < 1566252081 619292 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 128 cores per server \o/ < 1566252131 44079 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :128 cores, with slots for 4 accelerator cards < 1566252136 808935 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it 8 < 1566252148 171103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reason is that there's some shared code between the entries that they normally reach via a jump, but you can't write the jump instruction when you're too far from the start of the PLT) < 1566252170 342126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: nice. have you ever written a program for those that spawns 128 parallel processes to speed up something, but some library you call in them tries to be automatically smart and spawns 128 parallel threads in each of them? < 1566252183 209085 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :pffft < 1566252201 790035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I generate an amd64 program, should I just not use a PLT? < 1566252210 110676 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's happened to me on 12 cores only, I haven't seen a 128 core machine < 1566252217 671839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-way NUMA too < 1566252222 491543 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 128 core machines are on the market as of a few days ago < 1566252226 854966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm sceptical about the value of the PLT and GOT < 1566252226 915739 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're 2-way as well < 1566252232 674183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, should I take Microsoft's approach and say "x64" instead of "x86-64" or "amd64"? It's shorter. < 1566252239 355138 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :go ahead < 1566252247 551150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no < 1566252248 612748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm, what's the alternative to the GOT in ELF files? < 1566252253 860472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x64 probably refers to an unrelated CPU < 1566252258 22956 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: they're also impressively cheap, 7k for the highest end 64-core CPU from AMD < 1566252266 771282 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it absolutely kills in terms of performance < 1566252283 449968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1566252291 83255 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :somethingsomething50kfor56coresfromintel < 1566252295 279733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, the GOT basically lets you find addresses that aren't compile-time constants, but doing arithmetic on %rip can also do that if you know that the entire program has moved the same amount < 1566252304 869957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a powerful computer, but not that powerful < 1566252311 675648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'd only be useful when connecting between two parts of the program that are ASLRed by different amounts < 1566252330 192844 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: AMD has 16-core processors for desktop for about $800 i think, coming to market real soon < 1566252346 151633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Right, but isn't every library loaded at a random address? < 1566252399 502640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but there isn't a whole lot of actual communication done between libraries through, e.g., shared global constants < 1566252446 150680 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what about calls to library functions? < 1566252451 262777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not sure that I see any particular difference between absolute and position-independent code; you need the dynamic linker to update function calls in one library to point to the other anyway < 1566252478 765561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the purpose of the PLT is pretty much just so that you can avoid editing the .text segment, which forces you to use a private rather than shared map < 1566252489 838650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so the PLT seems kind of pointless. < 1566252504 234195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But isn't the GOT the alternative that doesn't edit .text? < 1566252519 970483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GOT and PLT are very similar < 1566252549 495998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that GOT is general-purpose and the PLT is just wrappers for function calls < 1566252563 93968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this lets you give a location in the PLT when you need to give someone a function pointer for a callback) < 1566252585 995213 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: exascale R316 when < 1566252593 558311 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uwot < 1566252596 333096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, position-independent code doesn't move while it's running, so if you need to give someone a function pointer, you could probably just lea it yourself and pass them the resulting absolute address < 1566252601 859701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do we have to have these interesting conversations during the night when I have to get up early the next day? the sleep cycle of this channel is messe dup < 1566252611 25602 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi i'm american < 1566252614 477368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm saying GOT when I mean something else. < 1566252615 102317 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the afternoon here < 1566252628 802047 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOT sounds an awful lot like GDT < 1566252639 45626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the way you're proposing to call a dynamically linked function? < 1566252642 261556 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know GDT, but not GOT.. < 1566252673 20966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: you are, yes < 1566252731 814532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should have something like "movq some_offset(%rip), %rax; callq %rax", where that offset is an offset into a segment the dynamic linker populates with the correct address at load time. < 1566252767 809009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe that's not what I think? < 1566252869 761943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: my suggestion is callq 0(%rip) in the executable, the dynamic linker edits the 0 to the actual distance when the executable is loaded < 1566252894 476679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works well for executable → library calls as long as they're both in the first 31 bits (they typically will be) < 1566252908 241740 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that requires editing .text such that it can't be shared, right? < 1566252912 413481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work as well for library → library calls, though, because you'd ideally want to be able to store the libraries in a shared mapping < 1566252922 587430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that prevents a shared .text < 1566252923 723435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you're saying that's irrelevant. < 1566252932 6455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider it insufficiently relevant < 1566252948 456601 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I like being able to do is load a new copy of a .so at runtime repeatedly. < 1566252964 20082 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's still possible with that approach. < 1566252977 372239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it might require a page to be W|X. < 1566252981 126084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's a problem, the next step would be to have a separate section that groups together jumps to functions, do calls by calling that section, and have the dynamic linker edit the jump targets < 1566253003 47555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say that sounds like the PLT, but I guess the PLT has an extra level of indirection. < 1566253020 329731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1566253027 84092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand why it has that extra level < 1566253043 746372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's to allow lazy loading. < 1566253065 191332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think lazy loading is probably a bad idea, though. < 1566253103 244348 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566253103 661328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the remaning hard case is when one library (or the executable) refers to a global variable in another library (or the executable) < 1566253115 733735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my preferred solution to this would be simply to ban it :-D < 1566253127 174332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I use this in the aforementioned use case. < 1566253167 38528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically my program is made of two parts, a loader binary and an application .so. < 1566253169 563482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in cases like this, getter/setter methods would normally be a better API < 1566253198 303310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .so refers to some global variables defined in the loader to share state across reloads. < 1566253208 387269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the loader could just pass it a pointer. < 1566253264 322723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I think I know why the PLT might be useful: it's to avoid invalidating function pointers into a library after it's reloaded < 1566253294 537872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think those are invalidated anyway. < 1566253307 393222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they have to be < 1566253308 882242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm loading the library with dlopen. < 1566253314 11813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the PLT is irrelevant. < 1566253325 430581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the loader->library direction.) < 1566253635 950840 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.137.50 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566253645 748475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, my current hobby is being annoyed at compiler optimisers < 1566253657 181218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One annoying thing about structuring the program this way is that the .so can't use any global variables (that survive across reloads). < 1566253674 657557 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the global variables I'm importing from the loader really belong in the library anyway. < 1566253701 251654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned short f(unsigned long long *p) { unsigned long long rp = *p; if ((rp & 0xFF00000000000000LLU) != 0x8000000000000000LLU) return 0; return (unsigned short)((rp ^ 0x8000000000000000LLU) >> 48); } < 1566253713 46276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that is the test function that I've been working on optimising < 1566253733 311241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like, if you want to make your programs fast, optimizing compilers are rarely the right place to look. < 1566253762 59211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this compiles to 45 bytes with gcc -Os, 34 bytes with clang -Os < 1566253788 910419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it down to 13 bytes of hand-written asm < 1566253804 656794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. That's a lot of bytes. < 1566253807 918976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I'm annoyed is that I want to be able to write clear code and rely on compiler optimisations < 1566253852 146959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a go at trying to generate good asm via repeatedly hand-optimising the C file < 1566253878 178823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that got it down to 24 bytes on clang and 17 on gcc, but at the cost of requiring -fno-strict-aliasing < 1566253911 985678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has an idea < 1566253921 801122 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" haha, the PLT uses one format for the first 102261125 entries and changes to a different format from the 102261126th onwards" => I wonder if I should addquote that < 1566253968 266827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helps on clang, at least < 1566253985 152320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can hit an LLVM optimiser idiom and get back to strictly conforming C, which is nice < 1566253986 755811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :getter/setter methods? why not a function that returns the address of the variable instead? < 1566254011 2476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that works in most cases < 1566254024 596038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like getter/setter because it abstracts away the way in which the variable is stored internally < 1566254049 108136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but many of the cases you'd need that, e.g. if you need to move the variable to thread-local-storage, still let you take references to it < 1566254060 358791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf "%x" 102261125 < 1566254061 34602 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :6186185 < 1566254099 447124 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't the extra indirection so that you can take a function pointer to a function in another library, and equality-compare it in C to the same function pointer taken from a third library, and make them return equal? < 1566254106 332373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extra indirection in the PLT that is < 1566254126 773918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, could be < 1566254127 158162 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the PLT let you do that? < 1566254141 367729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you have made sure that you aren't using a too old compiler or an MS compiler, right? < 1566254166 657328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ^ this is a really good example of my belief that immutable things should be treated as indistinguishable from values, with any references managed behind the scenes < 1566254212 279048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reference-== on immutable things is not a useful operation (except possibly as an optimisation hint) and if you accidentally expose it in your language semantics, a lot of contortions are needed to avoid breaking programs that rely on it < 1566254222 59957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for a thread-local variable, you call the function again each time you're not sure you're in the same thread. that's how errno works. < 1566254238 525305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in retrospect, errno was a mistake < 1566254243 187331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it took a while for that to become apparent < 1566254252 834809 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :errno is a big mistake < 1566254259 933712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` gcc -E - <<<$'#include\nerrno' | tail < 1566254260 690864 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​# 25 "/usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bits/errno.h" 2 3 4 \ # 50 "/usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bits/errno.h" 3 4 \ \ # 50 "/usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bits/errno.h" 3 4 \ extern int *__errno_location (void) __attribute__ ((__nothrow__ , __leaf__)) __attribute__ ((__const__)); \ # 36 "/usr/include/errno.h" 2 3 4 \ # 58 "/usr/include/errno.h" 3 4 \ \ # 2 "" 2 \ (*__errno_location ()) < 1566254280 391369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that "leaf" in the header file is curious < 1566254284 215032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: yes, and C99 at least partly gets rid of it by allowing such fast functions as sqrt to not necessarily set it < 1566254292 73992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when would a function need to know that it's /calling/ a leaf functiion < 1566254292 316834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and floor < 1566254327 937339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently it means "this function will never call a callback function, nor longjmp" < 1566254349 93244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does seem potentially useful as an optimisation hint < 1566254523 676133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, not floor, sorry < 1566254527 16115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sqrt < 1566254540 278706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when foo is a dynamiclly linked function and it's used as a function pointer, what does that pointer point to? < 1566254595 72658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know. it might not even work the way I explained, maybe it points to different places depending on which library you're naming the function pointer. I never tested it. < 1566254596 466099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's not the PLT entry. < 1566254657 766590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a test program but now I gotta figure out what it's actually doing. < 1566254708 873887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A PLT entry isn't even generated when you get a function pointer. Only when you call the function directly. < 1566254730 319693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is pretty bizarre because "calling the function directly" nominally happens through a function pointer, in C. < 1566254794 432747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: does it really? I thought the function (reference) just decays to a function pointer when used as such, just like how an array decays to a pointer < 1566254807 158354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when you call it, that doesn't happen < 1566254841 550594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what the C standard says. < 1566254864 744882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that that's an observable reference, and in any case, this is something that can and will be optimized < 1566254869 607346 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I get back to the computer I'll test it more directly. < 1566254900 696874 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1566254939 571394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, I think compilers will likely optimize it, because direct function calls are pretty common < 1566254950 894436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe it is observable, for the reason you said (making function pointers equal across libraries). < 1566254979 104387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since each library has its own PLT. < 1566255037 321574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: does C even guarantee the thing about making function pointers equal? < 1566255132 201809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure you are even allowed to compare two function pointers without invoking undefined behavior unless one of them is a null pointer < 1566255155 978657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, you probably can < 1566255177 413910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for equal comparisons, you don't get UB < 1566255201 291715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know if two function pointers to the same pointer are guaranteed to be equal, even within a compilation unit < 1566255205 973064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can compare for equality, but not for < and > < 1566255224 773636 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, but what result do you get? < 1566255242 920904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does f == f have to return true if f is a function? < 1566255243 478340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows, this is C we're talking about :-D < 1566255246 644842 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1566255259 201055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with optimizations it turns into a PLT call in gcc. < 1566255303 672438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can do equal comparisons on function pointers only because some apis treat null pointers in a special way < 1566255320 841865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nice < 1566255327 190397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-8.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1566255365 564216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the function pointer comes from the GOT. < 1566255657 17305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, dynamic linking is so complicated. < 1566255728 221608 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566256180 610225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind of annoyed that when you lookify up something about dynamic linking or ELF files or whatever most of the search results are about random programs that print error messages involving those things rather than anything about how those things actually work. < 1566256578 661054 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea... < 1566256630 875094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least writing an emitter is probably way better than writing a loader (which needs to handle all the old things no one uses anymore). < 1566256635 781888 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iysxgalxowpkpzed QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566256753 36942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused by the last paragraph in https://www.airs.com/blog/archives/549 < 1566256761 518021 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is possible to design a statically linked PIE, in which the program relocates itself at startup time." < 1566256771 13122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does the program need to relocate itself? Doesn't the kernel do that? < 1566257718 724216 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-68-55-111-60.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1566257816 476969 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to look to check, but I think this is "relocation" in the sense of "processing ELF symbol relocations", not in the sense of "mapping into memory" < 1566257854 138582 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a static PIE binary is more-or-less a shared object that happens to have an entry point and no external dependencies. < 1566257878 202088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would ELF symbol relocations be relevant for a statically linked executable? < 1566257974 66639 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The executable's GOT and PLT needs populated. < 1566258015 347946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, are you from Pittsburgh now? < 1566258029 130009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why a statically linked executable would have a GOT or PLT. < 1566258066 945912 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you're implemented a static PIE binary by emitting, essentially, a shared object. That happens to have an entry point. < 1566258103 760231 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that's just a technicality due to the kernel only randomizing ET_DYN files. < 1566258118 996582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no need to emit a DYNAMIC segment. < 1566258238 312133 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to remember exactly how musl does static PIE binary support... < 1566258300 455569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : movzwl -0x2(%rdi,%rax,1),%ecx \ mov %ecx,%edx \ xor $0x8060,%edx \ movzwl %dx,%edx < 1566258302 54491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1566258312 875952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last movzwl is just some really obvious dead code < 1566258337 635102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top 16 bits of %edx didn't stop being 0 just because you XORed the bottom 16 < 1566258438 56320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to stop taking it personally when compilers generate ridiculous code, but still, that one really hurts < 1566258497 912603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, clang optimised (x ^ 0x807F) >= 0x00A0 into (x ^ 0x8060) >= 0x00A0 which doesn't really change anything but is amusing < 1566258569 1152 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like musl's implementation is that it links in the dynamic linker to static PIE binaries. < 1566258618 700461 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, rather, a portion of it. < 1566258630 422946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1566258656 627656 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/ldso/dlstart.c It's this portion. < 1566258684 317742 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the startup code for the dynamic linker, not the full thing. < 1566258745 508472 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's doing very very little. < 1566258754 102308 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even really processing relocations. < 1566258902 486358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :later on there's also the beautiful "xor %r8d,%r8d \ movzbl %r8b,%eax" (with, AFAICT %r8 dying immediately afterwards) < 1566258930 384966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with, AFAICT, < 1566259179 398796 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566260593 644683 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566260816 455057 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-69-244-159-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566260932 6688 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5d4a:2029:f374:a2d7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566260938 901183 :sleepnap1!~thomas@2607:fb90:1787:637f:d926:f894:74a2:ea27 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566261074 391252 :sleepnap!~thomas@c-69-244-159-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566261195 958583 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5d4a:2029:f374:a2d7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566262345 187579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566262898 743314 :sleepnap1!~thomas@2607:fb90:1787:637f:d926:f894:74a2:ea27 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1566268652 78769 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-czajepotlypsxlhl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566268664 10559 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hmzsunahslcugfld JOIN :#esoteric < 1566273008 324385 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566273178 333994 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566279203 966845 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5d4a:2029:f374:a2d7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566279219 919853 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in < 1566279248 587631 :uplime!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1566279477 956338 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5d4a:2029:f374:a2d7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566283519 665635 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566284461 354209 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ a=b b=a; echo $((a)) < 1566284463 108296 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: b: expression recursion level exceeded (error token is "b") < 1566286731 621949 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ioeuliotvkewzlqx JOIN :#esoteric < 1566287936 731454 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566288752 238290 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566289678 636438 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566289735 499997 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566290224 46815 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566292426 733656 :onon!~onon@unaffiliated/onon PART #esoteric :"†" < 1566294264 129509 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just realised that the idea I had for writing a text editor is, rougly speaking, Smalltalk < 1566294737 232376 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566294991 311689 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I've been reading the R7RS. It's been making me laugh. < 1566295112 749646 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean to say that it is laughable; overall, I like Scheme. < 1566295120 13823 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what funny abut it < 1566295142 313265 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think R7RS could be better but course corrected well < 1566295199 799968 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly, it's amusing when they leave so much wiggle room. < 1566295214 848233 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, a Scheme implementation is allowed to use symbols outside Unicode if it wants. < 1566295222 182653 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say this explicitly. < 1566295285 369159 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1566295293 740557 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't even specify stuff about filesystem paths for importing files < 1566295313 564733 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case someone wants an SQL database backed complaint r7rs implementation < 1566295319 61246 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result is you cannot portably do a multiple file project < 1566295496 85432 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://rain-1.github.io/scheme-srfi-1.html < 1566295607 989441 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Is it ironic that *none* of those look like https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-55/srfi-55.html ? < 1566295644 735283 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow i didnt even realize that < 1566295648 553551 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should add that < 1566295663 698205 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(require-extension (srfi 1)) might work in one or more of those < 1566295663 773006 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah this is the mess we're in < 1566295671 229232 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everybody is wondering why nobody uses scheme < 1566295937 592338 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still prefer it over Common Lisp and Clojure (but I'm probably not typical). I'd like it even more if mutability was forbidden. I thought there was a SRFI for this, but I went looking for it again and I couldn't find it. < 1566295967 908644 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would remove the call/cc and similar operators < 1566295973 280425 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's become clear that they aren't useful < 1566296160 318534 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme (and Haskell) have a lot of features in them that are mainly to support PL research and education... I'd put call/cc in that bucket. < 1566296191 61937 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For learning about continuations, it's cool. Will I ever actually *use* it...? Probably not. < 1566298119 957480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuations are easy < 1566298125 591894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :delimited continuations are weird < 1566298146 85190 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :All programming constructions are weird < 1566298148 743976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bla bla shift bla bla reset bla bla) < 1566298191 246487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that was an opinion, of course < 1566298198 883766 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1566298205 223915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe a statement that I grokked the former but not the latter. < 1566298242 627464 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas what I said was a contrarian but defensible statement made partially in jest < 1566298653 966900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :All continuations are delimited, though. < 1566298667 338058 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ioeuliotvkewzlqx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566298678 217068 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore continuations are easy and weird < 1566298741 347832 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the start of a CPS concatenative language but I had to use a nonstandard definition of function composition to get it < 1566298763 937852 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: cpresshey < 1566298790 222072 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566298805 546710 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mystified by this, actually: < 1566298830 261221 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :* I feel like I understand undelimited continuations < 1566298841 816152 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :* I feel like I don't understand delimited continuations < 1566298849 871991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :* All continuations are delimited < 1566298884 667756 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, see "A theory of regulation." in https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-01-24/metrics-fees-and-regulations < 1566298915 61656 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing I didn't expect after your list of bullet points about continuations: a link to Bloomberg.com < 1566298946 387221 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only realized that I was quoting that article after I finished writing the bullet points. < 1566298995 340608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm confused by the shift/reset syntax, and how it translates to the common functional (a -> r) -> r idea. < 1566299048 354309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I just haven't read the right paper(s) yet. < 1566299091 337353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell Cont continuations are delimited by runCont. < 1566299136 488241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, I'm mainly confused by shift & reset. < 1566299168 521243 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect "delimited" refers to something that's not actually the continuation per se -- but I don't really know. < 1566299197 165529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whole program continuations are silly. < 1566299248 936805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, my pseudo-continuation thing has a delimiter, normally written {}. < 1566299254 622566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :To carve out a context from a program you need a point where the context starts, and a hole, "delimiting" it from two sides. < 1566299306 306525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you write { ...foo`...; ... }, foo gets "{\x; ...x...; ... }" as an argument. < 1566299328 383735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than the entire rest of the program. < 1566299487 22239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the classic Scheme shift-reset thing, shift is a binder, right? < 1566299491 774994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: shift/reset confuses me too. This or previous year I have seen something more natural but I don’t remember if it was purely about delimited continuations or something other < 1566299578 975000 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how algebraic effects relate to continuations? At least syntactic ideas about the former are more understandable for me < 1566299605 303486 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/about/related to < 1566299660 605720 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :that handling case-like construct and data-like definition of an effect < 1566299665 876888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think I understand shift/reset now. < 1566299705 941176 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566299719 358079 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO shift takes on itself too much, and that effect syntax takes from it some control to the “reset” side < 1566299727 84094 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIR < 1566299768 203316 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then suddenly it starts to resemble control constructs from imperative languages, e. g. try/catch < 1566299873 444283 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also I had read something that made me think I understood shift/reset, but now I remember it only vaguely < 1566300080 657197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: OK, I now understand shift-reset and can work the examples. < 1566300091 907645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems pretty simple. < 1566300158 726262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why shift is called shift, and why it doesn't take a lambda. < 1566300729 679881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shift/reset in http://pllab.is.ocha.ac.jp/~asai/cw2011tutorial/main-e.pdf seem a bit more reasonable. < 1566302107 51306 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566302627 479060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... next question... why? < 1566302643 580826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: why? < 1566302643 735820 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i hope something good came in the mail < 1566302673 497057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a better answer than I hoped for. But it's still not very satisfying. < 1566302738 676225 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "delimited" means that instead of one thing called call/cc you have two things called shift and reset < 1566302781 354374 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there's a subtlety around the behavior of ; inside reset though... < 1566302807 383284 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a stack. No, there's no stack now. Okay, now there's a stack again, but it's a different stack. < 1566302809 815090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: reset (foo; shift ...) doesn't capture the 'foo' part. < 1566302855 541576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: otherwise the tree walking wouldn't make sense (I think) < 1566302959 742988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah I guess that explains it operationally, more or less... shift = "capture the stack between here and the latest reset on the heap, and return a closure that, when invoked, puts it back on the stack". < 1566303225 202899 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if it explains anything operationally, it was by accident < 1566303255 741196 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was more about... well, hard to say. I am prattling. < 1566303348 412915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh was I finding patterns in the noise... mistaking them for communication? I believe that's a common mistake for humans :) < 1566303356 563839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So maybe I'm human? Who knew...) < 1566303583 602031 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll chalk it up to coincidence. I was perhaps trying to answer "why?" < 1566303623 178005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all so dysfuncational! < 1566303688 349532 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I really want continuations that have been made more useful by making them delimited continuations? Isn't the point kind of to make it *less* useful? To make it easier to analyze, etc. < 1566303707 789767 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted useful, I'd just not deal with continuations at all. < 1566303746 332466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rather suspect that continuations were meant to be useful. < 1566303747 279240 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there is some kind of control structure that delimited continuations can capture, that "regular" ones can't, but I haven't seen what it is < 1566303815 908082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't interest me enough to justify me hunting it down unfortunately < 1566303843 993740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder about the history. < 1566303856 793112 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may have been an accident. < 1566304023 202841 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I kind of stopped paying listening to academics after I heard Wadler compare monads to a solution to Descartes' mind-body problem. < 1566304026 107813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Made-up history: 1. We want exception-like behavior, a bit like setjmp/longjmp, but memory-safe! Let's make something that captures the current state of the stack so we can resume at this point later. Let's name it call/cc. 2. call/cc is slow because it has to capture all of the current stack... let's add a mechanism to limit the amount of stack we safe! (reset / shift=call/cc up to last... < 1566304032 161369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...reset). 3. Hmm, what can we use this new primitive for? 4. 100 papers. ) < 1566304041 210553 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*paying attention to < 1566304079 547070 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566304081 938728 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I believe continuations, the concept, started in denotational semantics. < 1566304090 894308 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1566304100 107730 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if it's "We want to write a function that describes exception-like behaviour" then yes < 1566304116 302238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: let's focus on steps 2-4 :) < 1566304225 727519 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("1. God gave us call/cc." - Let's pretend I wrote that instead ;) ) < 1566304228 54007 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/monadicDC.pdf refers to a 1987 paper called "Beyond continuations" that < 1566304250 491477 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1566304255 662500 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PaniniTheDevelop: hi < 1566304261 433628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome PaniniTheDevelop < 1566304262 774931 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​07PaniniTheDevelop: 08Welcome 09to 02the 06international 13hub 04for 07esoteric 08programming 09language 02design 06and 13deployment! 04For 07more 08information, 09check 02out 06our 13wiki: 04. 07(For 08the 09other 02kind 06of 13esoterica, 04try 07#esoteric 08on 09EFnet 02or 06DALnet.) < 1566304270 448786 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant register < 1566304278 503001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PaniniTheDevelop: ask on #freenode < 1566304313 965418 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just < 1566304323 805241 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know befunge < 1566304334 424573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh. register where?) < 1566304342 955099 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the wiki < 1566304393 723624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I somehow assumed the IRC server < 1566304431 4132 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1566304442 750130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ < 1566304445 101652 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1566304456 322429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1566304480 734125 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its brainfck < 1566304678 896429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ibin/befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ < 1566304679 477729 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! < 1566304702 108933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now what was the official way to do that... < 1566304705 493819 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9857727254>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ < 1566304710 487906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help interp < 1566304711 791885 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`interp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566304722 610351 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :help with this < 1566304736 226477 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the `ibin/befunge was important < 1566304825 687814 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! befunge 9857727254>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ < 1566304826 758069 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :197596799 < 1566304881 567301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `! < 1566304882 646983 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used. < 1566304900 167921 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks > 1566304913 413975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* 10New user account < 1566304932 232560 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaaay < 1566304943 959507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One more hoop to jump through. < 1566304950 107637 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1566305150 612682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will ask you to introduce yourself at some point... I don't know whether it tells you immediately after creating the account or when you attempt to edit a page though. (Maybe both, but perhaps only the latter.) < 1566305235 990995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, we're all sorry for those hoops but we did suffer from a lot of spam in the past (including some that figured out how to solve the befunge captcha, either automatically or perhaps by employing humans that are rewarded simply for creating an account successfully.) < 1566305496 760263 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the latter, it is probably the only instance ever of people being paid to code in Befunge. < 1566305526 888325 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I didn't realize there was a captcha at all < 1566305677 933220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I imagine the reward to be more along the lines of being allowed to download a couple of pornographic videos. < 1566305726 799261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a "stress-test" of the network connection of "a friend". < 1566305839 654405 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1566306104 14042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stress that I don't know. I'm extrapolating from https://krebsonsecurity.com/ mostly. < 1566307298 307323 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2908@176.59.41.8 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1566310168 398911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Emoji14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65578&oldid=65554 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-35) 10removing unnecessary newlines. > 1566310194 645070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Emoji14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65579&oldid=65578 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+35) 10Undo revision 65578 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]]) Oops > 1566310306 793959 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Emoji14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65580&oldid=65579 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10trying out new thing. < 1566310642 80640 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think delimited continuations are easier < 1566310648 4279 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing you can algebraically axiomatize them < 1566310672 653340 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2004) Axioms for Delimited Continuations in the CPS Hierarchy - Yukiyoshi Kameyama < 1566310729 935186 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted to define orthogonal language constructs in terms of continuations you need multiple-prompt continuations to separate them though < 1566311987 326362 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("1. God gave us call/cc." - Let's pretend I wrote that instead ;) ) => no, God gave us the integers, he couldn’t have given us two different things at once, it would be cheating < 1566312030 759410 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you’re right, call/cc = integers < 1566312036 573043 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/succ < 1566312135 390960 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about call/pred then? I know Kronecker probably meant only nonnegative/positive integers, but it’s more fun if we’d take them all < 1566312152 744801 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh one time I was bored and tried to make Peano-like axioms for Z < 1566312172 918453 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ended up too verbose < 1566312575 537807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I thought he gave use more tablets full of commandments but Moses was too lazy to carry them down the mountain? < 1566312596 435835 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1566312601 532936 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are heavy < 1566312617 376028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :should've used paper < 1566312640 113401 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hmm, 0 is in Z, succ is a bijection from Z -> Z such that succ(x) != x < 1566312708 967889 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Induction's the tricky one, as always < 1566312715 156495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find context < 1566312728 147791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. "I was bored and tried to make Peano-like axioms" < 1566312767 812466 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added prev and tried to make sure pred succ = succ pred = id < 1566312779 935381 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If K is a set such that 0 is in K and for every integer n, n being in K implies that succ(n) and succ^-1(n) is in K, then K contains every integer < 1566312808 101488 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I was trying to be sneaky and rely on pred existing due to succ being bijective < 1566312808 324425 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yeah, I wrote it in that way, though using pred instead of succ^−1 < 1566312812 242142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z is the monoid given by the presentation < 1566312833 431847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's ) < 1566312852 390796 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that’s cheating < 1566312868 919868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: we can translate that back into peano style, surely. < 1566312894 992422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just won't be nearly as nice as Peano's axioms... unfortunately. < 1566312919 196096 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though all said, I like the definition of N as a free monoid on one generator :) < 1566312942 91852 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can add multiplication more or less naturally < 1566312972 744695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reality I like Z as a quotient of N x N (with (a,b) = (c,d) whenever a + d = b + c) < 1566313012 443245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it’s a nice construction and works for more things, I forgot what it’s named in general < 1566313057 841403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like Q is the quotient of (Z x (Z - {0})) w.r.t (a,b) = (c,d) <--> a*d = b*c) < 1566313095 524329 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + 0 = a, a + succ(b) = succ(a + b), a + succ^-1(b) = succ^-1(a + b), exercize: show that this is consistent < 1566313131 401473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: what do you mean by succ^-1? < 1566313137 21148 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ^-1 just a constructor < 1566313158 85394 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe succ^-1 is a single constructor < 1566313164 997172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'd be happier if you used `pred` and axioms for the interaction of succ and pred < 1566313260 701876 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I define succ to be a bijection, and succ^-1 is the inverse function of succ, which you can call pred if you like < 1566313332 48667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so putting that equationally, you have pred(succ(x)) = x and succ(pred(x)) = x. < 1566313368 565703 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok i get it < 1566313375 413651 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW < 1566313387 252414 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://minikanren.org/workshop/2019/minikanren19-final4.pdf I like this < 1566313447 473910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortuntately, the rewrite rules +(x, 0) -> x, +(x, s(y)) -> s(+(x,y)), +(x, p(y)) -> p(+(x,y)), s(p(x)) -> x, p(s(x)) -> x are terminating and confluent, and there are distinct normal forms (e.g., 0 and s(0)), so the system is consistent. (Exercise: Figure out what having distinct normal forms has to do with "consistency") < 1566313534 991998 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what theorem is that < 1566313552 650406 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am probably missing something, but, how is this not group theory < 1566313556 114098 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess its some fundamental result from term rewriting theory < 1566313646 346819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Solution to exercise: Since we're specifying an algebraic structure by equations alone, there's always a model that consists of a single element. So the natural analogue of "consistency" is not "has a model", but "has a non-trivial model", which means a model with more than one element.) < 1566313675 115565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This /is/ related to standard consitency formulated in terms of booleans: we don't want to have false = true. < 1566314187 503022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "how is this not group theory" -- term rewriting is closer to universal algebra (you can have an arbitrary number of functions of arbitrary arity, and you can talk about presentations of such structures (given by equations between terms that may contain variables, like that s(p(x)) = x above) and stuff like that. And then you can ask questions like whether two terms (0 and s(0)) are... < 1566314193 510781 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...the same. To that end, one can try to "complete" the system, by which checking whether t = u amounts to reducing t and u to a normal form with respect to a complete (terminating and confluent) system, and then comparing those normal forms syntactically.). < 1566314275 15659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Bendix_completion_algorithm is not the best Wikipedia article ever... but it might serve as a starting point nonetheless. Note that the seminal paper is titled "Simple Word Problems in Universal Algebras", so the universal algebra angle was there from the very beginning. < 1566314340 392889 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well, yes, ok < 1566314353 32690 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh bien, gut, ok, yes, ok < 1566314366 439594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I've worked in this field for 8 years. Some things stick :P < 1566314434 245153 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it not the case that "Peano-like axioms for Z" would be roughly the same as "Axioms for (infinite, ordered) groups" < 1566314476 542123 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ordered. < 1566314484 683130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :abelian would've been my first instinct < 1566314504 104917 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :abelian, right, that too < 1566314512 607597 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But s() induces an order, I'm sure < 1566314536 455194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :until it runs into a cycle (and cycle avoidance is the main challenge here) < 1566314545 195689 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure hope it induces an order, or I've wandered into an episode of The Twilight Zone < 1566314571 965886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo 3 you have 0 < 1 < 2 < 0 < 1 < 2 < 0 < 1 ... < 1566314586 563302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not much of an order, if you ask me. < 1566314606 20487 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who ordered this? < 1566314607 630945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that's what derailed *my* train of thought. < 1566314631 643764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at least it's still a quasi-order. < 1566314693 211660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even a... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-quasi-ordering < 1566314719 675340 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcrsrsvvbjsvjcxo JOIN :#esoteric < 1566314727 959521 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see what you're getting at < 1566315033 988450 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to think of how to extend the Peano axioms to ensure that the set is infinite < 1566315092 955366 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the peano axioms do imply the set is infinite < 1566315103 447710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by induction < 1566315129 995842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the axiom schema, not the proof method) < 1566315155 871883 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because succ is injective and there's no natural n such that succ(n) = 0 < 1566315156 762377 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just assume you had a finite model then add one to the biggest number < 1566315248 985083 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm completely lost then. That's okay. < 1566315286 942988 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure where the modulo 3 thing came from. < 1566315312 776399 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me neither < 1566315329 190597 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you had a finite model < 1566315336 861307 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the biggest element < 1566315344 698636 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the assumption is that S(biggest) is not in that set < 1566315363 464036 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was in the set, then you have S(biggest) = something so theres a loop, kind of like modular arithmetic < 1566315369 979775 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: I don't think that that's where cpressey is lost < 1566315614 252713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know anything about model theory so I have no intuitions here, but if you have axioms for infinite ordered groups, I would expect that there is no finite model that would satisfy them < 1566315617 594965 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could be totally wrong < 1566315647 761136 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand I can see how you could have a finite model satisying axioms for abelian groups, that doesn't sound wrong to me < 1566315663 150314 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's where modulo 3 could come in, I can see that < 1566315696 739395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh well I'm having a totally different wtf moment about this: https://www.gq.com/story/war-against-sneaker-bots < 1566315944 637297 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's amazing the things that happen in this world < 1566316135 630040 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, to quote Brian Krebs, 'For readers unfamiliar with this term, “shoe botting” or “sneaker bots” refers to the use of automated bot programs and services that aid in the rapid acquisition of limited-release, highly sought-after designer shoes that can then be resold at a profit on secondary markets.' < 1566316164 288514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: And disturbing. < 1566316660 878013 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566316852 195119 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566317014 209942 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they don't tell you is that the shoes are highly sought-after because, properly applied, they will eradicate 80% of the world's diseases < 1566317115 558467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Instead of dozens of different causes, everybody will die from shoe poisoning from this point onward. ) < 1566317197 221275 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566317284 148785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm only half kidding. I have a genuine problem with applying percentages to causes of death when we're dealing with a 100% mortality rate in the long run. < 1566317352 202569 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566317425 769007 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566317463 681549 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing some headline that eating cheese reduces death rate from all causes < 1566317474 398639 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The obvious jokes were made < 1566317671 244504 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1566317671 303803 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1566317671 303850 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1566319023 440591 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they don't tell you is that the shoes are highly sought-after because they cause the wearer to become invisible and able to sneak up on dragons and slay them and take their treasure. < 1566319041 839930 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the reason they don't tell you these things, is because they're not true. < 1566319318 210120 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566319543 216876 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566319567 135190 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566319728 307273 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566319733 22861 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1566320404 919180 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Four languages called "Robin" on Github, and only one of them's mine. < 1566320412 20287 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1566321684 368851 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566322315 545004 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566322449 526975 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lurks < 1566322505 583381 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcrsrsvvbjsvjcxo QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566322537 854373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, has SGDQ started yet? < 1566322538 248132 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is it 1974? what's for supper? can i program as if it was much thanks to oerjan)). how do you duplicate the list d e k f g c h i j w p r < 1566322566 125931 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1176 < 1566322569 228479 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1176: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1566322681 320726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Why would ELF symbol relocations be relevant for a statically linked executable?" => the program will refer to symbols in vdso < 1566323667 198153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Here's a stack. No, there's no stack now. Okay, now there's a stack again, but it's a different stack." => right, a cactus stack, because if you capture a continuation and leak it, it keeps a reference to the stack frame (and all stack frames below) even though you've exited those already < 1566323690 992853 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hail the cactus stack < 1566323719 365926 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointy and prickly and stabs whoever dares touch it < 1566323908 746018 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, has SGDQ started yet? < 1566323908 911720 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: i got it set up a return address) to each function, correct?) < 1566324285 434048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that may be the history, but it also happens to allow cooperative context switching between execution threads, which is sort of nice to show how powerful that primitive is < 1566324358 908266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternately maybe it started because someone wrote a lisp an interpreter that stored the stack frames individually allocated in a linked list on the heap, and then noticed that now his interpreter is so inefficient that they can implement call/cc without making it too much worse < 1566324420 726115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ < 1566324421 453755 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! < 1566324427 478976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ the official way < 1566324429 406695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `! < 1566324430 736608 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used. < 1566324513 973005 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: r7rs < 1566324514 110743 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: well i guess i could < 1566324531 129874 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: rust < 1566324531 328590 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: so i've always tied another on top of scheme, i don't know how < 1566324652 621786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, analyzing the axioms < 1566324797 203893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ... I have a genuine problem with applying percentages to causes of death when we're dealing with a 100% mortality rate in the long run." => the mortality rates are usually given in deaths per year though, so they don't add up to 100%, they add up to about 1/70 year^-1 < 1566325466 482787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: is the weather warm at wherever you are too? I guess you're in a server room with nice heat conditioning. < 1566325468 25525 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ( map ' ( 1 2 4 8 16... 2n, the difference between what?! what good is a kaiser roll without a little < 1566325515 460017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's the last hot day though < 1566325526 925488 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566325593 987229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be less hot during the week < 1566325808 244435 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :nogoawayiciloo < 1566325818 731005 :nogoawayiciloo!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony < 1566326310 644109 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566326483 964356 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1566326500 566905 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566326534 665708 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1566326695 761456 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566328527 552721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It doesn't? It seems to in the (reset (begin ...)) example on Wikipedia. < 1566328701 566251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: In my variant, {} is the delimiter, and { a; b; c; } means { a; { b; c; } }, but I don't think regular shift/reset does that. < 1566329146 106122 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to take higher math classes sooner, so i can understand some of the stuff talked about in here :P < 1566329501 856755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm not sure it would let you understand the crazy stuff on this channel, but I do support the idea of taking math classes < 1566329534 113715 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: fair. And I would take the classes anyways < 1566329539 977691 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like math < 1566329553 649119 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1566329564 479830 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's worth for things other than understanding #esoteric < 1566329583 809748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin < 1566329666 651510 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd help a bit < 1566329666 711737 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :because things like set theory < 1566329897 659102 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why set theory in particular? < 1566330035 831099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :let this = Goodstein's theorem in Do you like this? < 1566330703 243978 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566331006 516809 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1566331006 575814 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1566331006 575860 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1566331292 105339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket < 1566332841 287616 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566332901 465485 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566333004 755029 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I see it a lot, and think it could be useful for software optimization, as well < 1566333016 525760 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566333129 824625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh, maybe you're right. I wish I could test this. < 1566334961 361370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-45.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1566336212 428075 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :asdfbot2 < 1566336481 694295 :asdfbot2!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1566336503 22915 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1566337146 792861 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566337842 912752 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvzwnvqkuuueqszj JOIN :#esoteric < 1566338185 4328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566338208 272984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently trying to learn the theorem prover / SAT solver Z3 < 1566338296 316934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was trying to use Z3 the other day. < 1566338304 641446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it produces some pretty esoteric answers sometimes < 1566338313 580933 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMT solvers are TG < 1566338325 482431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, if you ask it "find an integer x such that x * x > 3", it pretty consistently produces the answer -8 < 1566338336 593791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a valid answer to the question, but not one I would have thought of < 1566338423 73559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog A×↙A>3∧Aw < 1566338426 626558 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 \ true. < 1566338439 34761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog's answer to the same question is more expected < 1566338822 730267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, when you link against a .o, does dead coffee elimination on functions you don't use typically happen? < 1566338828 511616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dead code elimination < 1566338852 302555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like that would put a bunch of restrictions on the .o < 1566338875 787014 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: depends < 1566338882 895522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe this is why people use .a instead of .o files, because it can only be done on the file level? < 1566338900 95118 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :for C/C++ using GCC/Clang, it only happens if you use -fLTO, which adds a lot of link-time data that can be used for dead code elimination, among other optimizations < 1566338925 522634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. That sounds mega complicated. < 1566338950 163166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write my own linker for my own program but I still want to use C libraries. < 1566338954 444409 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's compilerspecific < 1566338957 236017 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1566338960 491868 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea.. < 1566338972 823973 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But .o files are a standard format. < 1566338988 163375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably some kind of .note.gnu.whatever section < 1566338994 403125 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the situation on Windows? < 1566338995 380788 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, prolly < 1566338999 106670 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows? < 1566339008 637853 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is dominated by MSVC, which is closed source < 1566339010 838071 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun < 1566339021 542447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lld links on Windows < 1566339031 773613 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the PE format is pretty well documented < 1566339121 168335 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1566339127 475920 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1566339130 933566 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really use windows < 1566339239 854364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither do I. < 1566339348 508203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: by default, you get no dead code elimination with .o but do get dead code elimination with .a (in the sense that an entire file in the archive won't be used if nothing in it is referenced) < 1566339415 36673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way LTO is implemented is normally a fairly good approximation to "let's just do all the actual work of the compile during the link" < 1566339432 896851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course some of it is done during the compile step, but it moves a number of compile steps to happen at link-time instead < 1566339446 976438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this needs a very configurable linker so that you can ask it to call back into the compiler < 1566339604 934514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that sounds horrible. < 1566339622 752670 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it need to call back into the compiler? < 1566339733 636538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do the rest of the optimisation < 1566339751 433557 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it things like cross-module inlining? < 1566339779 307188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds so complicated. < 1566339881 944796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically cross-module everything, a typical LTO is the equivalent of just dumping your entire program (and its libraries) into one file with #include and optimising that < 1566339945 376985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why not just do whole-program compilation? < 1566339970 12158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much what's happening, I think < 1566339984 866407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but -fLTO is stronger than -fwhole-program because it looks in the libraries for things to optimise in too < 1566340007 282122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you do get incremental builds to some extent < 1566340019 614747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is a lot of work the compiler has to do before it even starts to optimise the program < 1566340031 955809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many optimisations are done first on a single procedure before being extended to being interprocedural < 1566340034 235257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that I want to write my program in a non-gcc language. < 1566340052 832669 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want to use some libraries written in C. < 1566340186 477639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably best to not LTO against them, in that case < 1566340195 716913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless your compiler and theirs have a common backend < 1566340208 324699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not aware of any LTOers which try to parse asm, although it's an interesting idea < 1566340225 724987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking optimisations want a higher-level source format anyway so that they know what UB they're allowed to exploit < 1566340226 669553 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the basic idea of a linker that it supports linking code written in multiple languages? < 1566340234 344262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only reason you need a linker or object files. < 1566340263 923066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the main reason you need a linker is for updating separately compiled files so that they reference each other < 1566340272 837726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's useful even within a single language < 1566340288 816788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many linkers do support multiple source languages, typically by only working at the asm level anyway < 1566340296 156016 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC and LLVM both use a intermediate language for LTO < 1566340303 754552 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM uses it's IR, as expected < 1566340306 29736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was once paid to write a linker, and that linker was specific to a single language < 1566340308 329741 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC uses GIMPLE < 1566340341 169687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its main purpose was to generate glue code to allow different compilation units to call functions defined in each other < 1566340377 564178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But splitting a program into multiple translation units is an implementation detail of a compiler. < 1566340383 388840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just do whole program compilation. < 1566340477 432030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main reason not to is because the separate translation units make incremental builds much easier to implement < 1566340504 247454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously, implementing incremental builds with whole-program compilation isn't impossible, but building a file at a time is a really easy way to do them and it's what's normally done in practice) < 1566340517 187673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how much incremental builds matter. < 1566340533 672040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…do you never work on large programs? < 1566340559 668668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even on something like NetHack, which isn't even large, there are at least tens of seconds difference between an incremental build and a full rebuild < 1566340576 77681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that I find the argument that compilers should be way faster and then incrementality doesn't matter so much pretty compelling. < 1566340594 646353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I bet NetHack would compile faster if it was in one translation unit. < 1566340615 3194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would, there are a lot of headers that are recursively included in everything < 1566340617 47683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have [REDACTED] lines of code in [REDACTED], and incremental builds are pretty [REDACTED] for it. < 1566340648 646990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly [REDACTED] benefits from incremental builds. < 1566340671 574274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's probably written in C++ or something. < 1566340703 705407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort-of would prefer to go the other way, I think compilers should consider spending more effort than they do a) proving the input program correct and b) optimising it < 1566340749 838815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a very fast debug-only build should be available. < 1566340821 222248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At one point Chromium started combining its translation units into larger chunks (I think ~30 files each maybe?) to make compilation faster. < 1566340848 245674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trouble with (some) C++ code is that all the code is in headers, so each translation includes the entire program. < 1566340959 283322 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the Chrome build instructions start with: "Are you a Google employee? See go/building-chrome instead." < 1566341014 850472 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the Chromium build instructions. < 1566341068 584411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566341141 205275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566341151 247076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they've been switching build systems every now and then. I guess it's still GN+Ninja though. < 1566341165 449771 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it definitely was GYP before, and I think something else before that. < 1566341302 620873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to build NetHack now to compare build times. < 1566341324 603843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the build instructions are convoluted so I still haven't figured it out. < 1566341372 977795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: for NetHack 3.4.3, try this patch: https://bilious.alt.org/?452 < 1566341393 721543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it automates all the manual steps of the build < 1566341410 987937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying 3.6.2 < 1566341429 43153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has a different build system < 1566341440 867829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a bit easier to use than 3.4.3's once you have an appropriate hints file < 1566341448 315642 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm, instead of application/octet-stream you should serve your .patch fail as text/plain so it opens in browsers. < 1566341467 587382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't my website < 1566341469 770027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just my patch < 1566341495 703755 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1566341512 783897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was only looking for executable files in the hints directory, with tab completion. So I thought there was only one for Mac OS. < 1566341553 189647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one for Linux mostly works apart from the directories I think < 1566341567 315782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, apparently bilious is downloading it /from/ my website < 1566341598 76334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :text/plain is the wrong MIME type for a diff, though (and there are security reasons not to use text/plain for /anything/ online, blame Microsoft) < 1566341619 232578 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's MS do < 1566341658 7693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: some versions of IE interpret text/plain as text/html if they think the file looks sufficiently HTMLlish < 1566341667 827547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this allows XSS attacks against plaintext files < 1566341669 870174 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :pffffft < 1566341688 885269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(last time this conversation came up, someone successfully XSS-attacked oerjan via a plaintext log file) < 1566341699 217383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so it's not just a theoretical issue) < 1566341703 788746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :log for #esoteric, that is < 1566341830 488109 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some workarounds though. Like, X-Content-Type-Options=nosniff on IE >= 8.0, which is... well, it's something. < 1566341862 802008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I really don't like application/octet-stream because no browser shows a preview option. < 1566341864 569356 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566341871 39123 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self: put demo for this madness on hellomouse.net < 1566341874 575626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the workaround we were always told to use on Wikipedia was to serve as text/css < 1566341875 703347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is really a problem with browsers, but all browsers have this behavior. < 1566341899 455194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, when I followed the link it opened in my text editor, with syntax highlighting < 1566341904 928801 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that works on older versions of IE than just the header. < 1566341912 371917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suspect that's a consequence of some configuration I did in the past < 1566341941 296800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"on Wikipedia" here = to prevent people XSS-attacking Wikipedia itself < 1566341948 552699 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sending "Content-Type: text/plain" + "X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff" from hack.esolangs.org/tmp/... URLs. < 1566341979 841069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that should probably be served from a different second-level domain than the wiki, actually. < 1566341996 25117 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't want to pay for esolangsusercontent.com or some such. < 1566342067 971477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the wiki cookies marked HTTP-only? < 1566342077 587518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would probably be enough as far as mitigations go < 1566342102 843849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd test this but I'm not particularly inclined to fire up IE on the live internet < 1566342115 835864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as the version of IE that I have installed is IE6 < 1566342155 42752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at least some of them are. < 1566342166 304229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, NetHack has all sorts of problems. < 1566342174 762451 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Set-Cookie: esolang_wiki_session=[redacted]; path=/; secure; HttpOnly" < 1566342175 29068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like multiple incompatible definitions of "struct monst". < 1566342284 795977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a new one for me < 1566342304 840446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting everything into one translation unit will show all sorts of odd things. < 1566342321 245052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of them are sort of reasonable, like #defines for common words without #undefs. < 1566342338 347766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1566342349 464882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects.h gets compiled twice, the first time uses a dummy definition for struct monst < 1566342353 910382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*objects.c < 1566342463 844808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects.c is compiled twice? Oh no. < 1566342504 612402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several of the files that are compiled are generated from other compiled files at build time < 1566342806 159726 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566343251 361319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the name for the version of boolean satisfaction where you can put as many forall quantifiers as you like at the start, but don't get other quantifiers or quantifiers anywhere else? < 1566343266 633602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "find x, y, such that forall a, b, c, f(a,b,c,x,y) is true" < 1566343367 675634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone told me the name of that recently but I've forgotten it. < 1566343719 561267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without -O, NetHack builds in <5 seconds on my machine. > 1566343722 567900 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65581 5* 03A 5* (+219) 10Created page with "[[Blackspace]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] completely based on the old-fashioned control characters. Currently this page is a placeholder. [[Category:2019]] Cat..." < 1566343722 649354 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566343745 926367 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566343759 848877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Husk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65582&oldid=65577 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10 < 1566343992 688281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is unrelated to the one-translation-unit thing, which isn't working very well in this code base.) < 1566344030 571257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a big problem is that you can only get parallelization in most compilers by breaking up your code into multiple translation units. < 1566344325 311693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that but forgot to say it in-channel < 1566344436 835293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too. < 1566344860 63915 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1566344994 273712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is -O even relevant to a program like NetHack? < 1566345124 299671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, we need to do optimisation rounds every now and then < 1566345158 401535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanilla NetHack was designed for very old computers where it ran very slowly, so a lot of optimisation was needed for that and means that we can afford to be sloppy when running old parts of the code on modern computers < 1566345185 761995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but NetHack derivatives like NH4 take advantage of the speed of modern computers to do things like continuously saving the game (the save code is pretty slow) < 1566345211 591960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, reading code compiled at -O0 hurts to look at < 1566345230 140124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often doesn't even really use registers, everything gets loaded from memory for one instruction then put right back into memory < 1566345271 2214 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, -O0 bad < 1566345282 593222 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1566345298 327569 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :there can be programs that behave differently because of how unoptimized -O0 is < 1566345310 989105 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and languages like Rust kinda depend on -O1 or better to even make good code < 1566345320 274394 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you're recompiling for development (which is the case where you want incremental builds) you presumably don't care about that so much. < 1566345333 284327 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Rust has certainly taken that part of the C++ philosophy. < 1566345385 867566 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. take Rust futures < 1566345388 986565 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they weren't optimized < 1566345396 625338 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single Future object could reach 100s of KBs large < 1566345399 959795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I consider the generation of suboptimal asm to be a bug < 1566345406 386448 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1566345416 439868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in either the compilier or the source code, but the source code is normally easier to fix < 1566345428 612007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But generating optimal assembly is uncomputable. < 1566345430 660284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll write a piece of the program, then look at the generated asm to see if it's fast enough or if I need to do better < 1566345444 931370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: depends on what the program is doing < 1566345462 710580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in many cases you just have a finite-state machine, optimising that is very computable < 1566345470 321943 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think part of the difficulty in generating optimal asm is, yknow, x86 itself < 1566345470 609195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like a computer game, even NetHack, is more like a real-time system. < 1566345477 427543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think I'm learning Z3? :-D < 1566345494 353659 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bug if it's too slow but if you don't miss your deadlines it's fine. < 1566345505 375386 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: compiler for a FSM language that generates nearly optimal ASM when < 1566345506 859847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I actually really disagree with this < 1566345518 299731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am upset at all the electricity that's being wasted in parts of the cycles that could be idle < 1566345533 639318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm really seriously considering it atm < 1566345547 236925 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, that'd be amazing for some problems < 1566345559 214954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I bet more cycles are being used to display NetHack in a GUI terminal than on computing NetHack. < 1566345565 420404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, Z3 is sufficiently high level that I think you could express it in only a few hundred lines or so of Z3 + a program wrapping it < 1566345592 599905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether Z3 could actually run the resulting program with any sort of efficiency would be the real question < 1566345594 988835 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: good luck handling the insanity that is per-processor behavior and SSE < 1566345602 753922 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agner's docs be with you < 1566345622 525253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: well, I was planning to a) optimise for size, because that's objective; b) at least initially concentrate only on the integer registers < 1566345628 320416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not even memory) < 1566345647 890890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, if you're talking about repeated recompilation during development, you should include the cost of the optimizing compiler in your wasted cycles. < 1566345671 7607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there's an argument for using only limited optimisation during development < 1566345672 945124 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're building a program to ship to many people, it makes sense to spend more time optimizing it. But that's a tiny fraction of your builds. < 1566345675 901812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much what -Og is for < 1566345697 381409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and -Og's generated code is far from terrible, given the tradeoffs it has to make < 1566346084 221086 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have fun handling instructions like the multiply instruction < 1566346112 737374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: in what way? < 1566346121 653343 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :output registers are fixed < 1566346137 516589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make it harder, just more tedious < 1566346143 788601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's what you meant by "have fun" < 1566346148 612306 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566346150 927888 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i ment < 1566346155 146130 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's annoying and tedious :P < 1566346155 539925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, from Z3's point of view it makes things easier due to having fewer possibilities to try) < 1566346190 746438 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man: https://mightyapp.com/ < 1566346218 485736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a mega-optimization. < 1566346223 870816 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfffft < 1566346245 343196 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :what they don't mention: < 1566346250 5403 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :*streaming* < 1566346265 741808 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe use firefox instead, heard it's faster < 1566346326 17628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the secret sauce optimization superpower. < 1566346361 764807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Web software wasn't in the cloud enough, so now you have a second layer of cloud. < 1566346399 830691 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :*steals link* < 1566346406 263772 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :*runs off to hellomouse to share* < 1566347649 1494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that mightyapp thing is a joke < 1566347654 552509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's enough information to tell < 1566347665 264543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can believe both that it's meant as a joke, and that it's meant seriously < 1566347719 136902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly a joke, but I don't think it's meant as one. < 1566347722 335852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm leaning towards joke, on the basis that a) the name is wrong and b) there aren't any terms of service or the like, which a company seriously setting something like this up would almost invariably have < 1566347753 988726 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it's a joke. it's certainly funny < 1566347757 194563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the "request access" link goes to a different domain < 1566347776 498416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this has been set up on a really low budget by someone without programming expertise, which seems at odds with the claims they're making < 1566347793 1582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that makes it most likely that it's a prank, and second most likely that it's a scam, I think < 1566347801 485102 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm < 1566347803 987846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"an actual product we intend to commercialise and have the skill to make" is a distant third < 1566347865 251200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ironic thing is, a product like that genuinely /could/ make most pages load faster, I suspect < 1566347928 67345 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML is /way/ too complex < 1566347934 79900 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML replacement when < 1566347939 138369 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric < 1566347996 470819 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvzwnvqkuuueqszj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566348058 200556 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome iczero < 1566348059 807472 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :iczero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) > 1566348260 370265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65583&oldid=64726 5* 03A 5* (+218) 10/* External resources */ > 1566348275 191770 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65584&oldid=65583 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* External resources */ typo < 1566348653 238710 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566348927 301669 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566349583 606997 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65585&oldid=52491 5* 03A 5* (+181) 10 > 1566349659 330084 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65586&oldid=65585 5* 03Ais523 5* (-67) 10/* External resources */ you kind-of have to read the instructions to learn the language, a denormalizer isn't going to do much to help (especially as it affects data as well as code) < 1566350101 51040 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566356324 8465 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566356434 25085 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566356441 604365 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566356987 32927 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1566357018 912527 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1566357030 36715 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric < 1566357117 272780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566361263 302335 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566361429 939141 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1566361764 209134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65587&oldid=65584 5* 03MilkyWay90 5* (+1) 10 < 1566365825 600834 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566368272 482702 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566369714 770517 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 QUIT :Quit: diginet has quit! < 1566369837 6157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566369948 55385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Isn't the basic idea of a linker that it supports linking code written in multiple languages?" => yes, so g++ can invoke gold in a way that it can link C, fortran and C++ together; ghc can invoke a linker such that it can link C and haskell together, and rustc can link rust and c together. If you want to link any two of C++, haskell and rust, you still can, but you have to guess all the magic < 1566369954 61171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :linker incantations required. > 1566369963 387373 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65588&oldid=65568 5* 03A 5* (+283) 10/* Malbolge */ Normalized using my normalization tool < 1566369971 342224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty sad really, especially the haskell part. < 1566370048 577298 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I mean that I find the argument that compilers should be way faster" => the people who say that are the ones with sour grape because they don't have a good optimizing compiler < 1566370174 125906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Well, a very fast debug-only build should be available." => still no. debug build should be somewhat faster, but it should still optimize. debug build is -O, production build is -O2. that debug builds used to be fast a decade ago itself was an artifact of that compilers were worse at optimizing and producing debug info for the optimized file that a debugger can read. that's no longer a < 1566370180 132858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :limitation, compilers got better in everything. < 1566370344 419303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the workaround we were always told to use on Wikipedia was to serve as text/css" => interesting < 1566370472 841529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Man, NetHack has all sorts of problems." => there are (or used to be) tables in C files generated by a program built at compile time, where the program that generates it includes a header that has macros that refer to the table in the generated output. < 1566370506 496650 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those unclear dependency orders were what really made me angry about its code organization < 1566370734 817460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" moony: well, I was planning to a) optimise for size," => I suggest that you optimize for the number of instructions instead, then size for equal number of instructions < 1566370837 860571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" yes, there's an argument for using only limited optimisation during development / that's pretty much what -Og is for" => no, AFAIK -O is for limited optimization during development, -Og is a close variant of that that specifically won't do optimizations that would confuse a runtime debugger (provided you use a new enough version of gdb) < 1566370859 484329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/runtime/interactive/ < 1566371156 787960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If compilers got better in everything why are they way slow? < 1566371300 260905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they're not slow. I can compile anything much faster than I used to be able to on a current machine than how much it took me on an ancient machine with gcc 2.95 < 1566371331 140545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, they didn't slow down so much, so with faster hardware, it is effectively faster < 1566371338 30847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-101.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566371551 42579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcc is way faster than gcc < 1566371562 791871 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566371635 793928 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I disagree with the statement "All continuations are delimited". < 1566371701 988808 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you accept a model where a computation can run without end, such as (I dunno) Turing machines, then I think you have to accept there are continuations without end too. < 1566371789 475292 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even on a real computer, when the OS starts a program, it passes it a continuation (conceptually at least), and when that program "terminates", all it's doing, is continuing that continuation. < 1566372050 66282 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a good feel for how delimited continuations work now but I'd like an implementation to test some things with. < 1566372053 605931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there one? < 1566372162 921916 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I have such a language bookmarked, need to find it. It uses prompt/control I think < 1566372174 316246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Racket or something have it? < 1566372195 441356 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://github.com/manuel/wat-js < 1566372205 517689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a promising URL. < 1566372245 696976 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all I got. < 1566372253 290591 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really into these thigns. < 1566372302 793438 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile a duckduckgo search for "racket delimited continuations" returns a hit on the Racket docs < 1566372306 380055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's just that the implementation is in JavaScript or something? < 1566372330 660220 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did look at the Racket documentation but I couldn't quickly figure out a way to make it work, or whether shift/reset is included at all. < 1566372364 502659 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that I'd like to have along with delimited continuations is something like destructors or Go's "defer", code that runs when you exit a scope. < 1566372369 165758 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it's got call/prompt < 1566372391 668156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I just need to figure out the right #lang incantation. < 1566372433 861415 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html lists shift and reset and cupto and prompt and allllll the things < 1566372473 181249 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re destructors, I think you'd use dynamic-wind for conventional continuations < 1566372546 422127 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, so they do. < 1566372554 300746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I just needed (require racket/control) < 1566372744 406095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, some of my questions have been answered. < 1566372845 884609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's even better than I thought in most respects. < 1566372876 283351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do the thing I want? I want a thing that creates an early exit point that can be used later. < 1566372898 815144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like (reset (let ((exit ...)) (...whatever, which may include more resets... (exit x)))) < 1566373336 622096 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utlobjrzauauulxo JOIN :#esoteric < 1566373671 901385 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566374091 333144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the answer is that I should be using a prompt tag instead of shift/reset. < 1566374372 44704 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566374380 196502 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 NICK :lob_jonas < 1566374400 825992 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, the programs that we can compile have gotten huge, which is part of why compilation can be slow. < 1566374576 327691 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566374641 959141 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if you want an exit point, which is a much simpler special case of a continuation to which you can only go out in the stack, not in again once you exited the frame where you created it, then try call/ec, see "https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html?q=call%2Fec#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fletstx-scheme..rkt%29._call%2Fec% < 1566374642 412383 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :29%29" < 1566374675 798432 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like longjmp because it can jump out from deep inside a function call, but not back once the setjmp exited < 1566374683 667573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I saw it. < 1566374726 921309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I actually want is neither of them. < 1566374729 466736 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it differs from longjmp because it still handles dynamic-wind destructors < 1566374746 822034 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want something in between, delimited? < 1566374852 565929 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could create a weak cell or ephemeron or whatever those are called these days, where the weak key points to a dummy object that you create in the stack frame to which you want to delimit the continuation, and the value holds the continuation itself. then you can't invoke the continuation through this once the delimiting stack frame has exited. < 1566374858 321922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I actually want is evaluated entirely at compiletime, for one. < 1566374870 275217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want any continuations or even indirect jumps at runtime. < 1566374873 908862 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only you can't invoke it, it can be garbage collected some time after the stack frame exits < 1566374882 622885 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... that's different < 1566374892 42382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the semantics might be similar in other ways. < 1566374957 721419 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want something like a goto/comefrom? < 1566374990 589267 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only it can see the label in an outer function that created the closure, lexically? < 1566375035 461097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe? < 1566375068 344500 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you want it to be able to re-enter a stack frame too, not just exit? < 1566375086 301139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe prompt-at is something like what I want. But it seems to want you to make your own tag for some reason? I must be misunderstanding it. < 1566375086 341142 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even through a closure that you leak out? nah, that'd be difficult < 1566375096 620696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be no closures since it all happens at compiletime. < 1566375109 346990 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations are like the least compile-time thing I can think of < 1566375173 139145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I didn't want to model my feature as continuations, at first. < 1566375184 854947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think it might just be the right thing unfortunately. < 1566375281 800313 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's just the right thing, why is it unfortunate? You speak in riddles. < 1566375408 741685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do part of what I want with the shift/reset in http://hackage.haskell.org/package/CC-delcont-0.2.1.0/docs/Control-Monad-CC.html , at least < 1566375422 77941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's unfortuantely because delimited continuations are super-mega-complicated < 1566375425 81372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ly// < 1566375428 84093 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I suggest you write some test cases for the feature, so that you at least have a clear idea what it... does? < 1566375439 166614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I've talked about some of this before. < 1566375449 876495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not talk, though, test case < 1566375490 114501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that would be easier if I knew what it was exactly. But then I wouldn't need to learn from continuations. < 1566375505 44326 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The test cases are to help you know what it is exactly < 1566375578 778031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a 2000 line file full of various examples trying various things. < 1566375591 557894 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing. Many test cases for one thing. < 1566375628 152850 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the file is about this one feature. < 1566375686 146995 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit confused by what you're asking. You want coherent working test cases for this thing, but the problem is that I'm confused about what this thing is. < 1566375728 297998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I can try it anyway. < 1566375789 727355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you identify this thing? "In this instance I would expect it to do this, in this other instance I would expect it to... (etc)" These are test cases. < 1566375816 198129 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/rain-1/continuations-study-group/blob/master/scripts/2010-asai-kitani-eval11-numbers.ml < 1566375845 136138 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a compiler and interpreter that implements lambda calculus with delimited continuations < 1566376117 306678 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566376335 444378 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566376398 905870 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alphabetti spaghetti14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65589&oldid=46644 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+120) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1566376883 869707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/2019-08-21-cpressey-test-cases.txt is something. < 1566376897 605744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These aren't actually test cases because I don't know what these lambdas actually are. < 1566377087 750318 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That is at least clearer. < 1566377184 5884 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566377184 67929 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :h < 1566377201 924735 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1566377235 377051 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the spelling of queue makes sense < 1566377238 946392 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q-ue-ue < 1566377372 910454 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about the spelling of deque? < 1566377418 741367 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that of cue? < 1566377464 999371 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cue - ck (c sound) - ue < 1566377469 331002 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ck-u-e < 1566377472 873923 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense < 1566377853 596395 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it? < 1566377954 466315 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: This is my "compile time" interpretation: ` is syntactic sugar (or rather the lack of it) for ;. @ is a label just after the block it's used in. defer is remembered when it's seen, but code isn't generated for it, until a jump out of the block. < 1566378023 379028 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree on the latter two. < 1566378023 636466 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this related to esolangs or < 1566378028 670303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean by the first one? < 1566378168 924389 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (xs, \x -> { BODY }) <==> { x := for(xs)`; BODY } < 1566378180 840158 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like you could transform that syntactically? < 1566378193 334142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :defer is special because it inserts the code at every exit (once at the block's }, and once for uses of @, I suppose). < 1566378202 14051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's certainly intended to be a syntactic transformation. < 1566378231 662550 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ x := for(xs); y := for(ys); BODY } turns into for(xs, \x -> for(ys, \y -> { BODY })) < 1566378242 940952 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I have to afk for a bit, but it doesn't look like you need to think much about continuations for this < 1566378243 945592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, I forgot the two `s in the left side. < 1566378248 583185 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use staging to make things happen at compile time < 1566378273 702083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And { x := for(for(xss)`)`; BODY } turns into for(xss, \xs -> for(xs, \x -> { BODY })) and so on. < 1566378276 943734 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :delimited continuations + staging is a powerful technique < 1566378298 810642 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://okmij.org/ftp/meta-programming/calculi.html#circle-shift < 1566378301 274183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that this is just a syntactic transformation, that's kind of the point. < 1566378325 277414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One question here is, what is "for", and what's the type of "exit", and what are these lambdas? < 1566378336 108111 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1566378396 432294 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566379229 410062 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for" is something like a function, but evaluated/inlined at compiletime. < 1566379267 772020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exit" is also a thing like that, and so is the argument to "for". < 1566379312 417696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are very similar to regular delimited continuations, except for the demand that they only exist at compiletime. So you can't pass "exit" or one of these lambdas as an argument to a regular function. < 1566379377 338583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know of a language that has that kind of thing? < 1566379434 921459 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1029:76b0:25b8:cbfd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566379541 462014 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how about... the language you're eventually going to create to test this thing? < 1566379641 235685 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think one reason you don't really need continuations for this is because you don't actually retry anything with these operators. < 1566379651 840564 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Continuations" at compile-time are "labels". < 1566379655 982492 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roughly speaking. < 1566379659 800039 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk again. < 1566379667 76443 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: a town in west virginia requested foreign aid from the USSR to repair a bridge < 1566379705 840996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Retry? < 1566379768 494056 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree about continuations at compile-time. < 1566379791 79051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why I said for a long time that I don't really want continuations because what I want is much simpler. < 1566380164 867073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: Yes, that sounds like a good one. < 1566381731 57608 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566382581 591450 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1566382622 439831 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) < 1566382778 708682 :andrewtheircer!b2de15f9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.222.21.249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566384662 648577 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I should probably let you sleep, but: when you capture a continuation, sometimes it's to continue it more than once (e.g. backtracking) but you're not doing that here. < 1566384794 466132 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for" looks like a function that takes a function, to me. If you want to say, it must be an anonymous function which lexically follows the "for", so you can optimize/analyze it better, you can do that. < 1566385073 414585 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the life of me @ looks a lot like setjmp/longjmp. You also want some static guarantees (you can't pass the value of @ around) but those are additional; the basic mechanism is that. < 1566385296 707699 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your additional lexical constraints might be misleading you into thinking it's an essentially lexical mechanism, but I don't think it is. < 1566385298 657099 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stop now. < 1566385472 987221 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utlobjrzauauulxo QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566385591 329215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time shachaf < 1566385592 444116 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Wed Aug 21 04:06:31 2019 < 1566386337 47312 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566386344 343974 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1566387077 136603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: whassup < 1566387163 767669 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I just got scheduled for dental root canal operation. The first time in my life. I was sort of mentally prepared for that. But < 1566387212 448665 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the root canal specialist surgeon said that he's looked at the X-ray and my tooth looked nasty so I'll need three appointments for this tooth. < 1566387233 511994 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already scared of this operation, but now I'm more scared. < 1566387734 292598 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I had a root canal once. It took multiple appointments, and in the end they couldn't save the tooth anyway. It wasn't fun, and there was some pain. But it's also not amongst my worst memories (I rarely think of it.) < 1566387765 427081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also the sort of thing where it's a finite amount of time, and you can remind yourself of that during it. < 1566387875 206901 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, the point of a root canal is that you only get them when they've given up on the tooth already, it can't be saved (or so the denist believes), so they turn it to an undead tooth with some metalic golem core surrounded by the empty shell of what used to be the tooth. < 1566387915 999717 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I hear the experience with it has a high variance, it's terrible for some people but acceptible for others. < 1566387954 343847 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes sense because I had three wisdom teeth extracted, and they all behaved differently < 1566387979 556404 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first one was terrible, the second one was trivial, the third one was ok but the gum healed ugly) < 1566388287 550195 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2396@176.59.35.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566388295 216403 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2396@176.59.35.150 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1566390783 319927 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2396@176.59.35.150 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566391677 936086 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-voxvqypglnspocmm JOIN :#esoteric < 1566392203 446890 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds) > 1566395699 264719 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07FAKE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65590&oldid=65453 5* 03Argv0 5* (+61) 10Typos and grammar corrections < 1566396590 549345 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2e3c@176.59.46.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566396901 445563 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dxjvumrgidsoexry QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566396912 932666 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upblfrpjmhuhwxpl JOIN :#esoteric < 1566396945 763414 :Lymee!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric < 1566396950 668884 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vtspndqqhuicqcet QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566396982 938045 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566397003 752667 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566397004 21314 :Lymee!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe NICK :Lymia < 1566397086 736963 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566397104 631255 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566397116 81773 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ngiuzxojxbkcdbai JOIN :#esoteric < 1566397121 288865 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1566397270 596740 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is there a thing like linear types that is linear kinds? < 1566397735 983467 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2e3c@176.59.46.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1566397834 24602 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566398143 965398 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ROT-1314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65591 5* 03A 5* (+335) 10Created page with "[[ROT-13]] is an extension of the [[ROT13]] encoder/decoder. ==Alphabetic characters== They are simply rotated using this following lookup table:
 ABCD...WXYZ NOPQ...JKLM..."
< 1566398174 685339 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2e3c@176.59.46.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :new page
< 1566398396 119166 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2e3c@176.59.46.60 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1566398477 975953 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65592&oldid=65525 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+253) 10/* Introductions */
< 1566398825 389802 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1566400273 669466 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1029:76b0:25b8:cbfd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566401522 978817 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1029:76b0:25b8:cbfd JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566402686 380535 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566403117 597795 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1566405383 38370 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566405515 961755 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1029:76b0:25b8:cbfd QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566407525 151873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-214.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566408083 548461 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2f77@176.59.47.119 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566408297 548629 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566408509 21607 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566409051 979770 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65593&oldid=62912 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+64) 10
> 1566409124 197922 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65594&oldid=65593 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (-39) 10
< 1566409128 926775 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sure, kinds are just like a type system but one level up
< 1566409152 960245 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a linear kind system you could do   data Foo a = Bar a   but not  data Foo a = Bar a a  or  data Foo a = Bar
< 1566409158 869435 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to use the type variable 'a' exactly once
> 1566409165 827411 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65595&oldid=65594 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (-25) 10
< 1566409172 143141 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that is useful, I do not know
< 1566412783 496950 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Joke's on you, I was already asleep.
< 1566412789 357107 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joke's on me, cpressey isn't here.
< 1566412857 918222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lens things we talked about "linear functors" and "affine functors" and so on.
< 1566415349 418617 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does that mean
< 1566415435 47529 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're like the things you said.
< 1566415487 976630 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write a Lens' (Foo a) a for your first Foo and a Traversal (Foo a) a for the second Foo and so on.
< 1566415521 513920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a is an example of an affine functor, since it's of the form "Ax + B"
< 1566415593 989705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess every linear functor is going to be of the form "(E,a)" for some E, like a 1D vector space.
> 1566416828 170359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65596&oldid=65592 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+0) 10
> 1566416985 99923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65597&oldid=65596 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+0) 10Undo revision 65596 by [[Special:Contributions/PaniniTheDeveloper|PaniniTheDeveloper]] ([[User talk:PaniniTheDeveloper|talk]])
< 1566417016 603502 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2f77@176.59.47.119 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566418153 47777 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1566418178 74886 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566418459 788627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-214.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1566419195 686346 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566419391 528247 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1566419397 882985 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1566420463 291023 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-voxvqypglnspocmm QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1566421147 363 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-novnyrstgioxlkwb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566424407 928451 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1566426466 489347 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1566427876 30406 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566428230 294110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1566430663 426092 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-novnyrstgioxlkwb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1566435933 412878 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65598&oldid=65523 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+456) 10/* Ruby */
> 1566435964 211671 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65599&oldid=65598 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+6) 10/* Ruby */
< 1566436353 594915 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1566436363 924331 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session QUIT :Changing host
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< 1566436365 832054 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/session QUIT :Changing host
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< 1566436372 303351 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1566436406 286693 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566436406 286739 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1566436446 213256 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
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< 1566436906 547463 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:f9b3:bf2f:71a7:665f JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1566437002 239282 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566437022 940484 :Effilry!znc@freenode/staff/firefly NICK :FireFly
< 1566437294 213561 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jgrzgtnrhdlsolyn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566437356 767863 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qgtsauqkyfhmcxmi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566437434 930322 :07IACCY0P!~relrod@origin.elrod.me QUIT :Changing host
< 1566437434 930374 :07IACCY0P!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566437438 646405 :07IACCY0P!~relrod@redhat/relrod NICK :relrod
> 1566438600 946500 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65600&oldid=65533 5* 03A 5* (+3176) 10
< 1566440102 486858 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566441345 793381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65601&oldid=65600 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+134) 10Questioning what looks like a bot shell
< 1566441623 245372 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.
< 1566441883 171249 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566443185 967068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566443871 28728 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at five days of logs and skips and jumps
< 1566444707 736788 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qccdgfmtprmhlacw QUIT :
< 1566444721 949315 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqpyqgabfbbvudol JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566445630 681079 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566445812 447598 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566446402 341951 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1566446541 624855 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566448277 69594 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566449340 612418 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566449340 689702 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host
< 1566449340 689771 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566461371 957629 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five days of skips and jumps is a lot of skips and jumps
< 1566461953 835627 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mostly only skipped between mentions of my name so - not many.
< 1566461957 595124 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566462092 810458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65602&oldid=65436 5* 03A 5* (+3413) 10Reply
> 1566462167 167021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65603&oldid=65601 5* 03A 5* (+3386) 10
< 1566462541 302415 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how have you been?
< 1566462570 291724 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566462578 604686 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1566462591 468547 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there's an olist in it, but you probably don't skip over that
< 1566462609 141378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, since it contains my nick
< 1566462662 211625 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566462802 263477 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566463023 865612 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do linear kinds ensure that a type is only used once?
< 1566463183 973442 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's what kmc suggested
< 1566463269 794234 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to read every line of the log
< 1566463745 450232 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^
< 1566463759 52582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome oerjan
< 1566463760 597255 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1566466328 781395 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later
< 1566468438 563152 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566473120 258412 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Quit: reboot
< 1566473331 864800 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the Hungarian word "meztelen" has four different variations: "meztelen, mezítelen, mezítlen, mezitelen". 
< 1566475353 296996 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566475441 462481 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566480608 232466 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566483283 969853 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1566483323 813551 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566483666 678768 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566483730 979205 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566484971 252799 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65604&oldid=65464 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+25) 10
< 1566485016 627627 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2305@176.59.35.5 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566485092 176784 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566485107 539943 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566485227 12412 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65605&oldid=65604 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (-12) 10
< 1566486308 109159 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566487149 334406 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566487509 745842 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b2305@176.59.35.5 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566488501 324699 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566489413 438792 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1566490109 564219 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1566490119 239405 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566490624 602055 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kerdjqjllskquemx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566492562 564695 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566493144 680888 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o
< 1566497662 430005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566499008 226953 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566501837 554580 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566501978 344884 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566502212 641548 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kerdjqjllskquemx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1566503148 137373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey all
< 1566504377 283430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_hellonas
< 1566504381 11308 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? membership
< 1566504382 301240 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :membership? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1566504384 331603 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? member
< 1566504385 472455 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
< 1566504409 376124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp cult
< 1566504410 943512 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :homestuck:Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif \ iditarod:The Iditarod is a race so incredibly difficult that it has a prize for coming in last place. \ pineapple:Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, making it a class 6 vegetable. \ promise problem:A promise problem is one that happens because you pr
< 1566504459 636793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 grwp cult
< 1566504460 882228 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3:ou promise too much. Their reduction to NP is p. difficult. \ subtle:The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear. \ tea:Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean. \ tg:TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to h
< 1566504489 847618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1566504491 802661 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3/3:alt before losing or not.
< 1566504518 771288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting that it miscounted by 5 initially?
< 1566504551 429731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean that `2 miscounted by 5?
< 1566504605 124179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But maybe there's been a hostmask change between now and when `2/`1/`n were last tweaked.
< 1566504795 70946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there's some way it can be made more resilient.
< 1566504814 567348 :erisd!05ad3099@user-5-173-48-153.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566504871 737401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :best not to touch it
< 1566504879 306347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it didn't lose any characters :)
< 1566505717 613506 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566505860 176575 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566505891 91409 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1566506013 752436 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65606&oldid=65603 5* 03Ais523 5* (-6444) 10rm likely copyright infringement
< 1566506626 735912 :erisd!05ad3099@user-5-173-48-153.play-internet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566506971 295377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: did you see that bolete
< 1566507059 786356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, some of those wisdoms are actually good, not like the ones I write
< 1566507083 972788 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1566507191 705482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://bolete.org/
< 1566507207 719102 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3
< 1566507852 290345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1566509061 596014 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1566509943 568475 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566510001 367180 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Linux has ELF, Windows has PE, and Mac has Mach-o. Would it be possible to create a new executable file format for a new OS?
< 1566510124 620688 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PART :#esoteric
< 1566510679 448360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that A again?
< 1566511123 568246 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566511180 259308 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, this is Areallycoolusername. I just put an acronym since my username is too long.
< 1566511193 215759 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1566511258 433138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BFC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65607&oldid=58053 5* 03ZM 5* (+4) 10Adding backlink to main BF article for convenience
< 1566511281 241415 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you both do the thing where you join, write one message into the chat, and leave?
< 1566511301 821429 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gratuitous joins/quits are annoying.
< 1566513568 568252 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566513705 16935 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: This is because there is no telling whether you'll get a response a few minutes after your message has been sent. So instead of waiting for a potentially long amount of time, I quit, and check back on the logs to see if anyone has responded. 
< 1566513810 731195 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566513920 745058 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommend just staying in the channel.
< 1566513955 153856 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to stare at the channel while you wait for an answer, if your computer supports multi-tasking.
< 1566514017 14630 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it would certainly be possible to make your own format. There are plenty of them out there already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_executable_file_formats
< 1566514106 165731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just use ELF, which is supported by many systems and fairly simple.
< 1566514162 31039 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a format that is automatically made whenever you make a program, so you dont have to run a command to get an executable. 
< 1566514190 438569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that have to do with which format you use?
< 1566514483 72191 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter the format, you usually have to run a command that turns a program into a runnable executable.
< 1566514509 16516 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you make a format that is automatically made after making a program 
< 1566514532 238341 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easier on the OS I'm trying to make
< 1566514641 480674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"automatically made" isn't a statement about the format but about the process of making.
< 1566514930 361675 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that the halting problem is uncomputable, but is it possible to prove that a function is a Finite State Machine?
< 1566515052 469506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure? It's also possible to prove that a program halts.
< 1566515054 219827 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1566515101 604687 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1566515103 570849 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1566515192 129300 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Elaborate?
< 1566515219 757377 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1566515446 641754 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :):
< 1566515785 760194 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1566516142 903993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to prove that a specific program halts, for example by running it until it halts.
< 1566516163 588664 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you mean a decision procedure?
< 1566516276 970226 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a decision procedure.
< 1566516419 969356 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :to test if a function is a FSM
< 1566516426 729455 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a lower class automata is that's not possible
< 1566516543 483760 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'll need to specify what you mean a bit more, but it sounds like the answer is no.
< 1566516619 188602 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a given function of a program a Finite State machine. Yea, don't think it is. 
< 1566516630 257881 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait
< 1566516632 758897 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1566516634 477905 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION derp, didn't elaborate
< 1566516709 812342 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: you can define a subset of programs that are "obviously" FSMs and can be checked to be such
< 1566516716 790419 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example by requiring all data structures have an explicit bound
< 1566516771 922462 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. Alright
< 1566516773 57406 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if your language allows unbounded state, then determining whether a given program actually has a bound on how much state it uses should be undecidable
< 1566516791 783945 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be an easy reduction from the halting problem
< 1566516853 298308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-4.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566516858 682863 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Thanks. Perfect reliability wasn't a requirement anyways, so just using tests to spot various "obvious" FSMs should be enough
< 1566516866 381552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular every program that halts is a finite state machine, and halting is decidable for finite state machines.
< 1566516892 324570 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1566516940 547457 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could also augment in checks to catch common unhalting issues
< 1566516951 694746 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a flag, as there'd be overhead from these kinds of checks)
< 1566517340 565966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566517405 544784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, there's one huge advantage to programming an SMT solver: when you want to test that your function does what you expect, you can simply write the properties it's supposed to have and the SMT solver proves that your function has those properties
< 1566517453 749510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all programming languages should work like this
< 1566517478 291930 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1566517489 235996 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also why quickcheck is so great, although of course it's not exhaustive
< 1566517508 203767 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still gets you a huge test suite for very little effort
< 1566517528 739354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can even ask it to synthesize a function for you!
< 1566517551 718943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not quite trivially.
< 1566517578 441214 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a dream of a language where you can put arbitrary predicates on types (refinement types) and it will prove what it can at compile time, and quickcheck the rest, and then optionally check at runtime as well
< 1566517579 698468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how? even a nontrivial method, I'd be very interested in
< 1566517622 535809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually don't have the answer to your question, but my friend keeps telling me about the program synthesis things he was doing with SMT solvers.
< 1566517769 933498 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the overall structure of this website:   ...  
... ...
< 1566517783 995873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this was the project: http://pl.eecs.berkeley.edu/projects/chlorophyll/ < 1566517936 352472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm wondering where that tag ends < 1566517954 832379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this structure is so illogical that I don't think the normal inference rules would help < 1566518012 694792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm, so pretty close to what I'm doing, just optimised for potato rather than x86 < 1566518041 777405 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is madness < 1566518048 300238 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can parse it and then dump the DOM < 1566518081 726947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, btw, after answering a couple of Malbolge questions on StackOverflow I had ideas for a worse version of it < 1566518110 13009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but am not certain a) if it's TC, or b) letting people see the spec is remotely a good idea < 1566518126 136809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody set up us the DOM < 1566518141 593067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the possibilities if it becomes public are that it's ignored, in which case it's neutral as to whether it was released or not, or that people try to program in it, which may be a bad thing) < 1566518258 364228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Isn't a self-closing tag in HTML? < 1566518396 921438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, could be < 1566518404 575509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does the data go, then? < 1566518420 665368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I omitted that part, should've put some ... in there. < 1566518433 721391 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of the DOCTYPEs are XHTML 1.0 Transitional, by the way. < 1566518443 857650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more fun if inner document is inside the input < 1566518605 73643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… if you're going to nest HTML like that there should logically be a to show where the inner document ends < 1566518620 67614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if this is /X/HTML, the browser should refuse to display iit < 1566518726 588521 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566518798 727887 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1566519895 417428 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you know anything about VSDGs? < 1566520023 793998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the acronym stands for, which leads me to suspect not < 1566520061 606271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia doesn't know either < 1566520066 256628 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Value State Dependence Graph. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-705.pdf < 1566520073 960435 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun little paper/ < 1566520079 52697 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :good concept < 1566520422 424860 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion of PostScript is that it isn't a very good protocol or document format, but it is a OK programming language. < 1566520742 382771 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: was asking because I thought it'd be something you'd be interested in. (I'm considering trying something with it myself) < 1566520864 797254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I internally think of programming at a very high level, so things like the difference between VSDG and SSA-PDG are hard for me to notice < 1566520890 420057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering using a subset of SMT2 (the input language to Z3 and friends) as a compiler IR, on the basis that it'd make proving the correctness of optimisations easy < 1566520914 605004 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1566520941 240039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's VSDGish in the sense that although the source language can express unnecessary ordering constraints, the SMT solver can't see them once the program has been loaded < 1566520955 911411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I didn't really notice they existed < 1566521011 770100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another example of this sort of mental block: after working with concurrent programming for several years, I generally forget that in most processors and languages, the order in which you assign to two variables can be relevant even if you don't explicitly order them) < 1566521021 937847 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8053:c7f5:b342:b240 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566521068 261255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh right: the compiler I wrote for work uses a VSDG-based internal representation, I only just realised < 1566521120 157404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only its target platform is hardware, which is basically VSDG in its own right, the only difference is that you need to give explicit timing rules for when the wavefront moves < 1566521144 910525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you're trying to parallelise as much as possible and not sequentialise unless you really have to, otherwise you might as well just use a CPU) < 1566521217 41835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other difference is that we had control flow combinators that could introduce loops in the graph < 1566521319 968202 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8053:c7f5:b342:b240 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566522191 982047 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d92b:f6c5:5acc:5e8a JOIN :#esoteric < 1566522312 425852 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1566522385 302305 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1566522467 981894 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d92b:f6c5:5acc:5e8a QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566522989 908181 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1566523250 244483 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566523435 882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the great thing about the hardware compiler is that the sort of optimisation that would normally be considered a "peephole optimisation" is, ironically, higher-level rather than lower-level than working closer to the source code < 1566523441 717652 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566523467 976750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a finer-grained representation than typical source is, and there are no ordering constraints unless they're needed for correctness < 1566523526 894118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, this VSDG thesis uses «printf("%i",(x++)+(x++));» as an example of code with unspecified behaviour, but the behaviour is actually undefined < 1566523536 310491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular there's no guarantee that it prints either 0 or 1, like the author expected < 1566523607 79440 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you're mutating the same l-value twice with no sequence point. < 1566523610 191228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :«printf("%i %i", x++, x++);» would have been a better example (I believe this is required to print either "0 1" or "1 0" but no requirement on which) < 1566523621 153231 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1566523622 148852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c printf("%i %i", x++, x++); < 1566523624 66105 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1566523634 204242 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be implementation-defined? < 1566523634 883467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did we fix that thing yet? < 1566523658 30413 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though actually, could just be unspecified. < 1566523674 178420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'int main(void) { printf("%i %i", x++, x++); }' | gcc -Wall -x c -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523675 24750 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:1:18: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘printf’ [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] \ /dev/stdin:1:18: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ \ /dev/stdin:1:18: note: include ‘\nint main(void) { printf("%i %i", x++, x++); }' | gcc -x c -Wall -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523718 893950 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:34: error: ‘x’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ /dev/stdin:2:34: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory < 1566523719 729299 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :``echo 'int printf(); int main(void) { printf("%i %i", x++, x++); }' | gcc -x c -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523720 354147 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found < 1566523731 53125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '#include \nint main(void) { int x = 0; printf("%i %i", x++, x++); }' | gcc -x c -Wall -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523732 563911 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:51: warning: operation on ‘x’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] \ 1 0 < 1566523741 441706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, gcc things it is UB < 1566523746 428549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thinks < 1566523761 208551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it's right, though < 1566523772 498174 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, is the ',' in an argument list not a sequence point? < 1566523776 552675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was < 1566523776 695274 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would've assumed it was. < 1566523845 869957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the function call is a sequence point, but there isn't a sequence point between the arguments < 1566523865 957622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '#include \nint main(void) { int x = 0; printf("%i %i", x++, x++); }' | gcc -x c -Wall -fno-diagnostics-color -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523867 123135 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:51: warning: operation on ‘x’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] \ 1 0 < 1566523882 292664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '#include \nint main(void) { int x = 0; printf("%i", x++) + printf("%i", x++); }' | gcc -x c -Wall -fno-diagnostics-color -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566523883 393421 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:63: warning: operation on ‘x’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] \ /dev/stdin:2:47: warning: value computed is not used [-Wunused-value] \ 01 < 1566524036 973836 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaah < 1566524193 593208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the standard to try to determine whether that's UB or not < 1566524220 407719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each x++ has to run either before or after the other printf, but there's no such requirement on running before or after the /argument calculation to/ the other printf < 1566524239 733552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n1570.pdf 6.5.2.2.10) < 1566524326 597759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I can't find the part of the standard that makes "modify twice between sequence points" UB < 1566524334 160182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it exists, or used to, I just can't find it < 1566524538 799638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.5p2 "If a side effect on a scalar object is unsequenced relative to either a different side effect on the same scalar object or a value computation using the value of the same scalar object, the behavior is undefined." < 1566524542 376191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, it is indeed UB < 1566524560 824292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language has been very tightened up since the earlier C standards < 1566524575 879750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '#include \nint main(void) { int x = 0; printf("%i", x++) + printf("%i", x++); return 0; }' | gcc --std=c89 -x c -Wall -fno-diagnostics-color -o /tmp/a.out /dev/stdin; /tmp/a.out < 1566524576 946904 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:63: warning: operation on ‘x’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] \ /dev/stdin:2:47: warning: value computed is not used [-Wunused-value] \ 01 < 1566524625 526846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for contrast, the language from C99: "Between the previous and next sequence point an object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression." < 1566524680 456530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 6.5.2.2p10: "The order of evaluation of the function designator, the actual arguments, and subexpressions within the actual arguments is unspecified, but there is a sequence point before the actual call." < 1566524734 412104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"previous and next" is pretty unclear in this case! < 1566525514 682882 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566525597 245821 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is having a pregenerated memory layout that contains pointers a good reason to disable ASLR? < 1566525663 307305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it depends on how important that pregenerated memory layout it is, and what sort of attack surface your program has < 1566525814 514141 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1566525815 614984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go disables ASLR on their binaries (by default?) because they say the language is memory-safe so it's irrelevant and harder to debug. < 1566525867 354550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that make it more likely to be vulnerable to meltdown/spectre-type exploits? < 1566525915 630081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems possible? < 1566525923 619618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you assume the memory safety is perfect, and so is the memory safety of all the language's dependencies (if any; IIRC go doesn't use libc, so possiibly it doesn't use anything else either) < 1566525931 897332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear it's often possible to use tricks to get information about memory layout so ASLR isn't that great anyway. < 1566525947 682842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it depends on how fine-grained it is, I guess < 1566525978 73983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programs with long loading times would be the candidates for this. < 1566525995 969743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :animalloc (the experimental malloc impl I wrote a while back) makes ASLR fairly useless because it has one random base address per program execution and everything malloc'ed is in a deterministic place relative to that < 1566525998 466002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear emacs used to support loading from a core file instead of from scratch, to make load times faster. < 1566526026 377898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still better than being off entirely < 1566526026 682715 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't it still have unexec? < 1566526037 476036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it's called. < 1566526040 935064 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/typester/emacs/blob/master/src/unexec.c Ah-yup < 1566526045 286099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I can imagine a malloc implementation that randomizes the address on every call < 1566526047 363415 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, that's ancient bull < 1566526069 42521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a.out format executable < 1566526077 685215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do those even work on modern Linux? I guess they do < 1566526092 143373 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not by default, I think. < 1566526095 422442 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your distro might not compile in support for it. < 1566526101 731759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer games are a clear candidate for this sort of thing (maybe particularly on consoles?). But I don't know what occupies most of their load time. < 1566526112 346480 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, Linux _itself_ has been fantastic at maintaining ABI support. < 1566526124 141653 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's userspace that's been pretty bad at it. < 1566526126 233413 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be loading assets, which have no pointers and therefore can just load things without pointers into memory. < 1566526135 958167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in-game load times, the main bottleneck is sending data to the GPU, I think < 1566526146 665613 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If only the kernel ABI was all you needed! < 1566526149 157820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much being sent a memory image /already/, with no real computations < 1566526155 500807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean game startup time. < 1566526175 265189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most games are pretty good about the CPU-related parts of startup time, IME < 1566526185 616624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not all of them though < 1566526190 702867 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I mean, you _could_ static link everything. < 1566526198 26360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you? < 1566526206 398594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's a long loading screen right at the start, it's probably because it needs some large assets in the GPU to display the title screen < 1566526209 909271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make graphical programs which means I want to use something like OpenGL. < 1566526213 455549 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if you want to use GL, you are in for a _rough_ time. < 1566526224 197598 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By rough you just mean impossible, right? < 1566526229 232976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or because it's prefaulting the files it uses from disk into memory < 1566526238 762291 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only official ABI for portable hardware-accelerated graphics is dynamic linking. < 1566526241 775228 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah, basically. < 1566526278 417090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a statically linked graphical application potentially be limited to one type of GPU anyway? < 1566526296 657442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no obvious reason why a dynamically-linked-in graphics library would be portable < 1566526328 95142 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that the entire GPU interface lives in userspace is fucking awful, but there we are. < 1566526340 772975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenGL is a mostly portable API for multiple GPUs. < 1566526352 494048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think it's better than, say, drawing scrollbars in kernel code < 1566526359 168843 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(okay, not the _entire_, but a sizable chunk of it is) < 1566526367 850892 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean yes, but that's the other extreme, ain't it? < 1566526375 23194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but couldn't two different libraries implement that API, each specialised for a particular card? < 1566526383 20106 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bad thing X isn't as bad as other random bad thing Y" isn't really an argument for thing X. < 1566526389 20221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, but IIRC Windows actually does that, or at least used to < 1566526407 867758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably we have to find a tradeoff point in between < 1566526433 245898 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reasonable approach is the kernel provides an abstract interface for the hardware. < 1566526434 256320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sure? Those are the different dynamic implementations of libGL.so. < 1566526447 83587 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like it does for every other device. < 1566526461 183103 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody has to dynamically link in a hard drive driver. < 1566526488 280847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hard drive doesn't run software written in a secret instruction set that you only get a compiler into. < 1566526522 785219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you don't even get a compiler for its secret instruction set < 1566526541 374265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's typically mostly irrelevant because the hard drive implements a standardised API so you don't need to mess around with the CPU on there < 1566526553 181590 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Which is itself just absurd IMO. < 1566526555 383168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some people have got interesting code running on hard drives, though) < 1566526556 805804 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's how it evolved. < 1566526586 413634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I can see potential worries about forwards compatibility, but the real reason is likely to be different < 1566526593 542929 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in Unix, it's not like the GPU devs showed up and decided to do it like this. Oh no. Even ancient X had the driver in userspace. < 1566526618 245394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if GPU machine code were public, people might write programs in it directly and then the company would have trouble selling new graphics cards < 1566526624 610401 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How do you mean? < 1566526630 376925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU microcode is probably secret at least partly for this reason < 1566526664 762313 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I mean that prior to DRM (the Linux API), X11 mmapped /dev/mem and had access to IO ports. < 1566526687 152951 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which meant that X11 was portable to basically every kernel! < 1566526702 557357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the latter makes a lot of sense, imagine doing a system call every time you wanted to send a byte to the GPU < 1566526705 389895 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... because it was effectively as privileged as the kernel < 1566526708 557997 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The X11 server, but clients had a standard protocol to send drawing commands to. < 1566526716 1494 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1566526724 741991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So from the perspective of someone writing a program it was just part of the platform API. That seems OK. < 1566526736 180837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except the protocol presumably didn't allow for very efficient graphics.) < 1566526745 667524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a different split would probably involve some sort of X11 renderer that ran in the kernel < 1566526758 878190 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a kernel generic framebuffer driver. < 1566526765 865909 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to fbdev, with more features. < 1566526809 133351 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the reason _that_ didn't take off is because back in the day, 2D hardware had a lot of random acceleration features, and it would be very hard to produce a good API that exposed them usefully. < 1566526810 189159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but modern GPU libraries don't want a framebuffer < 1566526815 192266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a few other standard ABIs that are only available via dynamic linking, like DNS and user lookup. < 1566526825 71687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for the most part you can reimplement those yourself with a bit of work. < 1566526833 780901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a framebuffer that implies you're doing all your rendering in software < 1566526835 772588 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: musl supports user lookup without it dynamic linking. :) < 1566526839 76676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that // < 1566526863 973051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what about when PAM is in use? < 1566526873 954788 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :musl speaks the glibc nscache protocol. < 1566526883 516551 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, yes, for PAM you're still stuck. < 1566526986 130189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. < 1566526992 107943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to scrap all of Linux userspace. < 1566527059 270449 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And unfortunately, I think PAM wouldn't let you even in _theory_ do a static linked implementation that talks to a daemon that handles the dynamic linking for you. < 1566527064 937362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that GPU manufacturers aren't cooperative, what's the best graphics API an operating system could provide? < 1566527091 344949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have to be very extensible, I think < 1566527105 477015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPUs keep inventing new features that aren't in any API that existed at the time < 1566527178 263261 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And designing brand new APIs to support them. < 1566527205 100448 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I can blame them; GL isn't a great fit to GPUs anymore. But even so. < 1566527262 545773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it still sounds like my answer is that I have to do dynamic linking. < 1566527267 225823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one potentially useful extreme would be something like GLSL but a bit more powerful, used to express /everything/ < 1566527289 845266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that'd be putting a lot of trust in the compiler to recognise what you were trying to do and optimise it < 1566527333 105149 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What you could maybe do is limit what the dynamic library is allowed to do. < 1566527357 748410 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if you forced that .so to have _no_ dependencies? < 1566527388 303183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But libGL depends on libc and whatever else. < 1566527399 301549 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and that's why it's a problem for ABI compat. < 1566527405 994808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what problem is that trying to solve? (fwiw, I'm not clear on which problem shachaf is trying to solve with static linking; there's more than one problem it could potentially solve) < 1566527421 94010 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Long-term ABI stability. < 1566527441 674754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe you're answering the "what could a platform do in general" question, rather than the "what can I do right now" question. < 1566527442 810770 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Force libGL to have a fixed ABI and no interaction with things that could possibly change. < 1566527452 572624 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes, that's what I'm answering. < 1566527496 114633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: as for "what can I do right now", depending on what sort of performance you need you might be able to invent your own very simple graphics protocol + a renderer for it < 1566527497 336534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, minimal dependencies would be better, of course. < 1566527499 342855 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: For now? You're kinda in a rough place; you're more or less forced into relying on Linux's moderately unstable userspace ABI. < 1566527510 873557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you could just place rendered bitmaps in a particular location in shared memory < 1566527522 424973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't care about compatibility with X, you could even use the Linux framebuffer! < 1566527531 522542 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If possible, yes, define your own simple graphics protocol and a renderer if you want to ship a static binary that's long-term usable. < 1566527539 70343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I use a 3840x2160 resolution so software renderers get slow pretty quickly. < 1566527556 874431 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, that's probably your single best bet if you want to ship a Linux binary that'll still be useful in 20 years. < 1566527563 460307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want software that's simple and reliable and straightforward to run. < 1566527631 170307 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Build software against symbols that are defined in the LSB, and static link in all other dependencies, I guess. < 1566527650 894199 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a great answer, but that's at least an ABI that's likely to be supported for some time. < 1566527660 218815 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also really limiting) < 1566527671 381900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: fwiw, my experience with programs that try to provide bundled dependencies has been that they usually end up breaking and can be fixed by forcing my OS's packaged versions of those dependencies rather than the program's bundled versions < 1566527690 820273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course there's the issue of security updates too < 1566527733 115285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of dependencies are you talking about? < 1566527740 248365 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem is, if you don't bundle dependencies you're at serious risk of ABI breakage. < 1566527747 112741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the most recent time this happened it was zlib < 1566527766 350820 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the Linux userspace is only somewhat concerned with ABI stability. < 1566527781 961170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you "force your OS's versions" of a statically linked library? < 1566527806 128735 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't, unless they're being aggressively LGPL-compliant. :) < 1566527819 138562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: LD_PRELOAD works, but normally the shipped dependencies have been linked in dynamically anyway which makes it even easier < 1566527824 947917 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically on Linux, if you're bundling dependencies you're bundling .so files. < 1566527831 938049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the last time this happened I had the program's source available so I just modified it < 1566527841 986803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: LGPL is bad for many reasons, but one of those reasons is encouraging dynamic linking. < 1566527868 698076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there was some insanity in the build process; I remember that reimplementing sqrt() myself rather than using the library version turned out to be the easiest solution) < 1566527882 494153 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Really_, if you're targetting Linux, the answer for having code that's easy to run that's still useful in years to come is to ship binaries that work on currently common distros, and offer source that's reasonably portable so it can still be built 10 years later. < 1566527904 918066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm presumably targeting every common platform. < 1566527925 960954 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, on Windows this is an easy question to answer. < 1566527932 382334 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ship a binary. It'll outlive you. < 1566527949 827222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm not convinced, I've had plenty of experience with Windows binaries breaking on later versions of Windows < 1566527965 181010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had programs written against Windows 3.1 break on Windows 98, for example < 1566527973 89490 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, granted I'm overselling it. < 1566527979 970237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually I got exasperated enough to look for any alternative, and ended up moving to SunOS and later Linux < 1566527983 344810 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, it will _probably_ work, but there's cases where it won't. < 1566527992 641583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember Windows XP could still run binaries from Windows 2. < 1566528004 705581 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past a certain point Windows' ABI compat is best-effort. < 1566528013 459273 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 32-bit Win10 probably still can. < 1566528031 118607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then my rewritten version for Windows 98 "broke" on Windows XP (it was still runnable but it ran so much more slowly as to be unusable) < 1566528189 304985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…maybe something like WebAssembly is a good way to produce a long-lived executable? < 1566528213 253332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being designed to be portable over anything else is also more likely to leave it stable to old programs, and ported to new OSes < 1566528223 450335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it basically has no kernel API to speak of < 1566528244 291371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are now talking about using WebAssembly to deploy code to their own servers and it seems horrible to me. < 1566528333 840806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually think WebAssembly is going to be a pretty important technology, maybe not for everything, but for a wide range of applications < 1566528454 796177 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: People be using waaay worse stuff already. < 1566528524 541520 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine people doing something that's k8s-like, except with WebAssembly instead of containers, and with the scheduler actually migrating process states rather than just killing things. < 1566528549 318717 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps with it effectively running as a kernel, rather than having an underlying OS that mostly is irrelevant. < 1566528583 382097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, people are doing bad things, but that's not an excuse for other bad things. < 1566528594 832514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Docker-style containers are scow. < 1566528749 29434 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conceptually, I don't think so. < 1566528756 56578 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically every implementation detail is, though. < 1566528757 927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I just looked through my old executables and found one written in 2004; it works just fine in Wine < 1566528956 417889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nethack4.org/pastebin/BACKGAM.EXE if anyone's interested in trying it out on Windows (the delay was me running it through local ClamAV, followed by VirusTotal, to make sure it wasn't infected) < 1566528967 932506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably they still have viruses from 2004 in their definitions :-) < 1566529007 158212 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win10 says "This app can't run on your PC." < 1566529024 481016 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disappointing, but at least that's a very clear error message. < 1566529086 276687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ file BACKGAM.EXE < 1566529087 866231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BACKGAM.EXE: MS-DOS executable, NE for MS Windows 3.x < 1566529128 316131 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on 64-bit Windows, so there's that. < 1566529149 466437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, not even PE? < 1566529150 816972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what file's output even means < 1566529160 957430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a specific sort of PE? or something older < 1566529175 477466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first two bytes are MZ so it's probably PE < 1566529182 263492 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an older binary file format. < 1566529185 806073 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"New Executable". < 1566529228 245167 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was the successor to the MZ file format, used by Win16 and OS/2. < 1566529275 343394 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MZ bytes are because NE _also_ supports a DOS MZ stub. < 1566529325 447201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1566529341 234996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566529366 80972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's a 16-bit executable, then < 1566529366 551826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any technical advantages to ELF or PE? < 1566529392 50841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are big technical advantages to arbitrary section support, which I'm not sure ELF's predecessors had < 1566529416 596958 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure PE does not support that. < 1566529418 180153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean ELF vs. PE, as opposed to ELF and PE compared to their predecessors? < 1566529423 347837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant ELF vs. PE. < 1566529443 168992 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PE is a Windows variant of COFF. < 1566529453 352414 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :COFF is the binary format ELF was built to improve upon. < 1566529508 802607 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things, PE isn't really built to handle relocations in the way that ELF does... < 1566529520 883087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1566529521 770382 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do relocations, yes, but they're all textrels. < 1566529533 372052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PE relocations are weird < 1566529551 503450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that mean modifying the text section? < 1566529556 846123 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86, each DLL is built for a given base address, and if it has to be located somewhere else you get a process-specific copy in memory. < 1566529573 223614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :before ASLR the default was for each individual executable and library to choose a preferred base address and relocations would only happen if they overlapped < 1566529583 542782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they did there would be a need to relocate everything < 1566529588 725938 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86_64, the code's just intrinsically PIC, so this doesn't happen < 1566529597 348219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, every address in the code needs changing < 1566529700 201298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, after reading up a bit on PE, I have decided it is insane < 1566529738 309026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF has been adopted by most operating systems, not just Linux (although Mac OS X uses its own thing) < 1566529768 564519 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF, while somewhat more complex, isn't a bad format, and it's suitably general that it is likely to just work for your use cases. < 1566529783 366966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PE does support arbitrary sectiions, though < 1566529796 580028 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PE supports specifying your desired stack size, which ELF doesn't seem to. < 1566529806 505671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seems there may be a GNU extension (which Linux ignores so it's irrelevant). < 1566529818 434883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_executable_file_formats seems useful < 1566529839 216099 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, huh. < 1566529900 147037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I should've thought to look there. < 1566529908 118819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PE files can contain an icon! That's a big advantage. < 1566529987 525307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a reason an executable program should be more than one file by default. < 1566529996 344140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including .so files with your program just seems ridiculous. < 1566530034 166717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like the Windows resource mechanism, although only for the purpose of providing metadata for use by other programs (typically shells and the GUI equivalent of shells) < 1566530047 837988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows uses the same general mechanism for lots of purposes, some of which are insane < 1566530066 242692 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know someone who includes information about command line arguments in an ELF section. < 1566530068 348225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is my icon" seems like a reasonable use though < 1566530090 654441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think there should be a machine-readable command line arguments standard < 1566530105 268175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1566530228 175847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, the icon system on Ubuntu (and presumably other distributions?) appears to allow the desktop theme to override icons < 1566530253 964944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is mostly used for generic icons like "text editor" that multiple programs are allowed to use < 1566530311 484497 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the program shouldn't need icons, and just the text is good enough mostly < 1566530383 963157 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's Freedesktop behavior I think. < 1566530412 442547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ownership" of programs seems to be very different on different OSes < 1566530431 58243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, Windows < 8 used to organize programs on the Start menu by manufacturer < 1566530449 866474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're probably still organised that way in Program Files < 1566530478 611918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the FHS suggests chopping them up into pieces, storing each file in a directory appropriate to its purpose < 1566530509 390288 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FHS is also assuming most of the FS hierarchy is owned by the OS. < 1566530536 146983 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a completely third-party program it's supposed to be in /opt/foo, where it's owned by the program, or in /usr/local, where it's owned by the system administrator. < 1566530608 754861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that's a good way to express the difference betwen /opt and /usr/local < 1566530646 458604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this implies that packages should aim for /usr if being uploaded to the OS package manager, and /opt if being sideloaded, right? < 1566530661 178145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with /usr/local being for things that were built manually) < 1566530755 288861 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, yeah. < 1566530782 96356 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://orenwatson.be/v0tgil.htm#vocabpics < 1566530822 38351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused. Is that supposed to be a phonetic spelling? < 1566530859 103108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this isn't an English thing, never mind. < 1566530865 36105 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's vötgil, a IAL that's so bad it's hilarious < 1566530895 902962 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore, I have started learning and using it and making resources about it < 1566530911 566585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_58 < 1566530920 39203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know there was such a thing as ALGOL 58. < 1566530950 461406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you considered the following novel thesis: < 1566530955 303357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good things are better than bad things. < 1566530960 458539 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was the first actual compiler for ALGOL made < 1566530971 961590 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: This is... not a good language. < 1566531000 102389 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every word in Vötgil has exactly three letters" < 1566531006 540312 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait till u see the grammar < 1566531009 208040 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I _see_, you're doing Toki Pona only less well < 1566531049 94050 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah the grammar has infinite recursion,unlike toki pona < 1566531074 879077 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that grammar is actually pretty shit < 1566531136 686953 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it differs from toki pona in having lots of words for manmade objects < 1566531152 180701 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in not having much of a point, good or bad < 1566531169 884539 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, Toki Pona is silly, but at least it has a reason for being the way it is) < 1566531180 216198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Minecraft support? or does Toki Pona have that too? < 1566531195 552666 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, it looks like it's coming from someone who only knows English, but thinks they're gonna be clever by being overly simplistic about it. < 1566531204 350580 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is a mincraft localizationfor toki pona < 1566531237 926358 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, caaaalled it. The vocab is all supposed to be English-cognate. < 1566531249 437750 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the funny thing is, it looks like english up until you interpret eisenmann literally < 1566531275 25038 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says, e.g. a descriptor always goes before the word it describes < 1566531285 918855 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to say the bird red is < 1566531368 944842 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a preposition goies between the words it modifies < 1566531397 36426 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means a preposition has to attach to the verb, *before* the direct object < 1566531426 142577 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1566531469 591461 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, either the grammar works nothing like he intends, or he is just bad at describing the grammar in a clear way. < 1566531476 680619 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make with wood a house < 1566531483 641920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that grammar is bad < 1566531522 866064 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grammar is based on me interpreting eisenmann literally and paying no attention to his example sentences < 1566531539 213144 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is at least the more interesting version. < 1566531547 117990 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because his examples seem to suggest "lol it's English" < 1566531553 686865 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if I went by his examples it would just be english < 1566531578 795220 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's since moved on to breadspeak < 1566531592 293208 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, that's the name of his current conlang) < 1566531619 116699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something seems odd about a conlang whose vocabulary is so English-inspired < 1566531680 202637 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean,volapük was also full of clipped english words < 1566531703 680629 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some german ones like klig (war) < 1566531710 4676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esperanto is a kind of consensus-Indo-European, which makes more sense < 1566531821 192569 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though consensus-Indo-European as viewed by a Russian speaker, which is a bit weird phonotactically. < 1566531862 350207 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another interesting thing is vötgil has morpemic roots for such meanings as "foot" "pound" "dollar" "mile" and "gallon" < 1566531931 824493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wondering if it would be possible for a conlang to actually be a con, as in confidence trick < 1566531962 753185 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, like Interlingua? < 1566532031 602865 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566532279 600454 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566536343 533928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566537965 813557 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does your text section have to be called .text? < 1566538328 214115 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as i'm aware, i don't think so? Why not test < 1566538414 862962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1566538503 525605 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566538579 109052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's certainly not true for executing ELF files, since sections are ignored entirely. < 1566538590 471335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering whether there's some situation where some linkers expect it. < 1566538801 583643 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1566539627 429664 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's interesting that it miscounted by 5 initially? <-- that's because you didn't use `1 initially, so there was no 1/3: in it < 1566539785 704365 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iow, `1 and `2 share the same chopping into lines, `2 just starts displaying the second one. < 1566539906 172661 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/2 < 1566539906 914011 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\` "$@" |& sport 2 < 1566540766 980983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1566540777 641089 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't `2 handle that case? < 1566542040 936116 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566542510 854288 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it did, then it would break if you cycle back to line 1 because now it's longer than the cutoff < 1566542541 149763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could break that line into two lines and then show line 3. < 1566542550 429923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's certainly not confusil. < 1566542556 100535 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CERTAINLY < 1566544390 500709 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566545339 609676 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566549060 190672 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566549168 176215 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566549794 984381 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566550087 504345 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566550583 936093 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566552581 453197 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1566553880 66640 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566553912 871704 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566554488 617572 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566554490 683595 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, and that UB rule of C is why we can't write the statement of 3SP as just "a[a[a[x++" in C, < 1566554506 613773 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as just "a[a[a[x]]]++" in C, < 1566554517 835292 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this impacts some other simple one-instruction languages too. < 1566554665 218023 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, a.out is no longer supported by the linux kernel. this is recent enough that you may be running an old enough kernel in which you can compile an a.out executable, but the harder part may be to install a libc that works with it. < 1566554681 667196 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever seen an a.out executable alive, I only read about them in history books. < 1566554821 926050 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :video game loading times => I think if the loading time matters in first place, then the game is loading something wrong, eg. having long repeated unskippable cutscenes such that speedrunners reset the game rather than wait for the cutscene, or frequent crashes or freezes or hardlocks that you can recover only by restarting the game < 1566554973 461 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the hard drive driver is in the kernel because the kernel needs it to boot, and the file system driver is in the kernel because people demand swapping into files so we can't swap the file system driver out "https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08.html#lqVb", plus also to limit permissions of file access, so that a process can't just read and write < 1566554973 407701 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : every file it wants to. < 1566555010 223647 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a GPU, I'd prefer if most of the driver was in userspace, with only as much in kernel space as required so that the prorgam can't do something malicious, and that if the program crashes, the kernel can reset the gpu to a usable state < 1566555055 445625 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that still means some nontrivial driver in the kernel, but I would prefer if all other things were in userspace libraries installed by my distribution. < 1566555141 988704 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and note that even for the file system, mkfs and fsck and tune2fs and fdisk are still in userspace < 1566555206 216802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing the two file systems plus two fs extensions that you burn onto CD or DVD, plus all the knowledge about writing audio CDs, those are also all in userspace < 1566555247 521556 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel knows how to read file systems from a CD or DVD because we want to boot rescue systems from them and possibly even run live systems from them < 1566555433 757901 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" There are a few other standard ABIs that are only available via dynamic linking, like DNS and user lookup." => yes. and do you know which part of glibc had a critical buffer overflow bug? the one that parses numerical ip addresses. so if you had DNS lookup statically linked into executables, then all my old executables would still be vul < 1566555434 217263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nerable even after I have debian update glibc with the security patch. that, or I'd have to have debian update every fricking executable that has DNS lookup inside it, which is a lot these days. < 1566555463 373418 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a good reason that those nontrivial parts of glibc, which don't need to be inlined or anything, those are in a dynamic library. they should be. < 1566555542 763379 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and debian is right to put only one copy of every library on my machine, as a dynamic library, as much as possible, not just to conserve disk space, but to be able to automatically update those dynamic libraries with ABI-compatible updates, and they'll work immediately after exec, even for prorgams that I've compiled myself. < 1566555616 750144 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've seen DNS lookup reimplemented, yes, and in that particular case it can even make sense because libc doesn't provide a non-blocking interface, but there are broken reimplementations that don't interpret your config files the way they should, in which case you get subtly broken and hard to debug problems in any non-default configuration < 1566555723 11650 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I would like to keep the kernel small so that I don't have to pay for features I don't use in locked kernel memory, because not every addition can be put into a swappable module, and people keep breaking the swappability < 1566555755 641469 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used to have kernels that were just one megabyte long, I'd like that back < 1566555778 516919 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one megabyte long with full reiserfs support) < 1566555827 582960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :glibc is a mess and every time I have to read the code for anything in it I'm sad. < 1566555832 605812 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" and of course there's the issue of security updates too" => excatly < 1566555847 943808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not as sad as when I have to read anything in /usr/include/c++/, of course. < 1566555852 249455 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, it is, I'm not saying you should put everything in glibc, more like that you should put everything in good userspace libraries < 1566555873 309547 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why? do you get underscore sickness? < 1566555881 504509 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underscores are only a small part of it. < 1566555895 427156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there were good userspace libraries I'd be more sympathetic to that advice. < 1566555906 307491 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, it will get worse when the macros will have to work around that ((void)a,b) can now call an overloaded operator if b is a fancy type < 1566555966 335370 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you saying not to worry because it'll get worse? < 1566555972 203862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer for it to get better. < 1566556077 218918 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" …maybe something like WebAssembly ... being designed to be portable over anything else" => didn't they promise that about Java too? each of the past versions of Java that is? < 1566556152 802313 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :WebAssembly is surely a better prospect than the JVM because its memory model is an array of bytes instead of a heap of garbage-collected Java objects. < 1566556257 568283 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Including .so files with your program just seems ridiculous" => that's because more than one program can use the same .so, and also I can update a .so without updating the main program or backwards < 1566556416 895628 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate Toki Pona < 1566556437 522743 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because of the LGPL or because of everything being bad and people just doing whatever. < 1566556599 996371 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566556787 939288 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think it's because of LGPL that libc is bad < 1566556946 450081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :People get things to work and don't care that the result is ugly because, well, they work. < 1566556974 862283 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, I know, I work with computers too, I know how it goes < 1566556976 759303 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is by no means unique to software. < 1566557004 339192 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next project is always urgent, there's never time or motivation to clean up the previous one to work properly < 1566557039 214092 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, but I don't want to know how every other industry works. I want to be able to drink beer and eat sausage, which is why I don't go to the factories where those are made. < 1566557050 145757 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why people think they need more and more new versions of C, though -- that, I'm not sure of. < 1566557094 857360 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. At least C18 was basically a bugfix update. This makes me relatively happy. < 1566557147 549084 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C2x looks like a trainwreck though. < 1566557150 338625 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the original C was tailored for the computers that existed back then. C99 made it official that the sqrt function, which calls *one* instruction, doesn't have to update the thread-specific errno. It and C11 also add a bit more modern floating-point maths stuff like that, which I think is good. < 1566557190 783208 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also added clear threading semantics, which didn't exist before, plus threading and mutex+condvar and atomic primitives to have yet one more standard of those. That part is still fine. < 1566557251 517429 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That they also added variable size arrays was probably a mistake. The designated initializers was probably a reality check because the linux kernel team decided that they will be using it and aren't letting it go, so it was best to just standardize it rather than leave it as a gcc extension. It's not like msvc cares about the C standard anyway. < 1566557278 510200 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about C18. < 1566557346 231088 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only going by what I saw when glancing at Wikipedia articles. < 1566557386 819992 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, they also added those msvc-specific "safe" library function thingies in the standard, where if you use memcpy you get a warning, and instead you have to pass the size argument twice to be sure it doesn't run over the buffer size or something. < 1566557446 942407 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also nonsense, but again, msvc implements it by default anyway and MS will force their own coders to that standard, everyone else can still use the normal functions and suppress their warnings, so it's not like it matters what the C standard says. < 1566557486 196795 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really the tricky threading and pointer semantics and that sort of thing where the C standard matters, because that's what people will look up there. < 1566557539 447765 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some extra functions or missing functions, the compilers or libraries can always say that they don't implement that, but if everyone used different pointer aliasing semantics or different threading rules, that would be a chaos. < 1566557583 499393 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What C needs most is better static analysis, to actually prevent the buffer overruns and use-after-free's and so forth. < 1566557609 607675 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think that's the task of C. that's the task of higher level languages like rust. < 1566557659 499223 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm well, then you could say, what the world needs is to stop using C so much. < 1566557684 702553 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, some people can use C just fine without making their code full of stupid bugs < 1566557691 301148 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me, but some programmers can < 1566557708 233846 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the linux kernel people mostly manage it too < 1566557749 950340 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyskkqkooyubleul JOIN :#esoteric < 1566557753 410544 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to force everyone to have to prove to the compiler that their code is right, because sometimes they (eg. the linux kernel guys) need to optimize something so much that they really can't write a machine-readable proof < 1566557783 269858 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time, when I write code, I don't mind the bounds-checked and memory safe operations, even if they're slower < 1566557810 860522 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the few cases when I do need to optimize the code, I can override those checks, in rust as well as anything, or write the inner loop in C or C++ < 1566557824 934831 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm of the opinion that if you need to optimize it *that* much, you probably should just use assembler anyway < 1566557840 953320 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if someone mostly wants to write code where he doesn't want to write proofs, then it's fine if they want to use C < 1566557847 679407 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend it to most people, but some people do manage it fine < 1566557892 925270 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566557903 617228 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I disagree, there is an intermediate stage where the compiler can produce the right code if I use the right (possibly nonportable and likely machine-specific) incantations < 1566557921 364094 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, sometimes you want to write the code directly in assembler, as ais523 says < 1566557945 973226 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, to even be able to interface the assembler code with your high-level code safely, you need a language with an unsafe interface, like C or similar < 1566557962 908284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: No, people ship .so files with their executables because of the LGPL. < 1566557982 831551 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be really inconvenient to do the boundary part if all you had was mandatory memory-safe high-level languages and machine code < 1566557983 241793 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: They work but they don't work well. < 1566558002 297536 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd effectively need to define the rules of C, perhaps without the compiler and concrete syntax, to do it < 1566558008 240914 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to even describe the interfaces < 1566558035 377373 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and note that gcc can do inline assembly where stuff is passed to assembly code through specific registers, and even condition flags now < 1566558040 268685 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which really isn't trivial < 1566558061 216671 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the gcc syntax is a bit awkward, but if you deal with writing your own assembly code, you can learn it too) < 1566558067 447263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? =ccc < 1566558069 64641 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​=ccc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566558102 134572 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? =@ccc < 1566558103 142383 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​=@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 . < 1566558125 469561 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that's one of the secret incantations, the other is the syntax to pass a variable to inline asm in a specific register < 1566558224 568269 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more specifically, some of the time I want to write loops of explicitly vectorized code, or code with unsafe memory accesses, but I don't want to deal with the register assignment or scheduling part, in which case a C or C++ compiler with machine-specific code orks better for me than writing any assembler < 1566558248 423465 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done this in my previous job for image processing stuff < 1566558320 945724 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you know what you're doing and willing to take the risk of premature optimization or pessimizing your code, then sure, write assembler code if you want < 1566558330 462386 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may also meet a case when I need to < 1566558593 450298 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, everyone who isn't in a position where they need to hand-vectorize code to meet their performance requirements needs to stop using C. < 1566558635 366326 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I was using C++, and not portable one either < 1566558657 91717 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that basically tells which AVX instruction to use < 1566558676 666989 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and optimized for the AVX instruction set < 1566558792 679547 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully soon I'll be able to write that directly in rust < 1566558813 863112 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they already have a decent backend for the compiler < 1566558829 903452 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they added some of the x86-specific stuff < 1566558867 299366 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as good as C++ for that sort of thing yet, but improving < 1566558881 55484 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it just needs a fucking printf) < 1566559021 948110 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566559042 159786 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you don't want to force everyone to have to prove to the compiler that their code is right" -- No, actually, as the person who is going to *use* the software, I kind of *do* want that < 1566559113 220844 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: most of the software I write is throwaway one used for research that nobody else will run on their machine < 1566559128 776428 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I care about that use < 1566559156 543935 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and care about the kernel and image editor and video compressor and other programs doing all their nonsense efficiently too < 1566559162 996176 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that rust ships with a complainer < 1566559187 959552 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the browser, or the tax filing software, mind you < 1566559198 388454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: perl does too, it's an old idea < 1566559202 380476 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't usually help much < 1566559214 467300 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, depends on which complainer you mean < 1566559218 928396 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl ships with only one of them < 1566559234 876079 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rustc of course ;) < 1566559238 306944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah but are you willing to pay a reasonable price for that? < 1566559240 793900 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean the one that gives the long explanation for error messages, or the lint-like tool? < 1566559275 75909 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly the type- and memory-checker < 1566559279 177721 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :love it < 1566559292 369612 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: sorry, I mean the former is rustc --explain, the latter is clippy < 1566559305 753853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently you just mean that rustc gives decent error messages < 1566559306 808843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: For the time being, I think proving code correct is one to two (decimal) orders of magnitude more time consuming that just writing it. < 1566559319 45888 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, it will no longer be able to keep it up once they make the generic system powerful enough < 1566559328 688460 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two features are exclusive < 1566559331 771038 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: i mean that rust enforces you to write clean code by design < 1566559348 832251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And more difficult too) < 1566559387 943495 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: no, it doesn't enforce. it lets you write clean code if you want to, but also lets you override the safety checks if you're willing to learn about all the UB rules and magic low-level stuff (MaybeUninit, UnsafeCell, etc), which are very different from the C++ ones < 1566559396 555567 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I like in it < 1566559405 232127 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is sort of like that too by the way < 1566559460 943919 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fricking indents are still putting me off about python, but I've determined that it's possible to extend its syntax to allow normal braced code, in a compatible way. I should implement it, install it to my machine so I can do proper python one-liners from the shell command line, < 1566559474 14678 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :install it to HackEso, document it, and submit it to the python guys to perhaps get it adapted officially. < 1566559508 307213 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly ignored python because the indents bothered me so much, but now that I took a look at it, I see it's become a good language (admittedly it took some time, just like with rust and C++) < 1566559542 573949 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate the errors i make in python < 1566559580 48698 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, "foo"+bar with bar beint a number will throw an error. i kinda get that, but i hate when it happens < 1566559631 214090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it be grand if there was a type checker to catch those... < 1566559640 594187 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: tests are also more time-consuming to write than code (though perhaps not a full OoM). In the absence of a proof, I'll settle for tests. < 1566559673 685980 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's when there's no proof and no tests I start to really worry, because that means there might not even be a specification < 1566559675 153249 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's my point. a type-checker would be great. or just auto-converting to a string, maybe with a message in stderr < 1566559685 370219 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with no specification, what are you even doing < 1566559685 647260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah I'm afraid tests will remain state of the art for some time still. < 1566559691 103786 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, python decides to play along until it doesn't < 1566559734 701998 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, if you can prove some important, smallish properties of the code, that's a start. Type systems, basically, are that, aren't they. < 1566559769 10905 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is prooving code in production really something people do? < 1566559790 319215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Yes. < 1566559791 975372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (simple, HM-alike) type systems are a sweet spot because for the most part you just have to write down the assertions and can leave proofs to the compiler. < 1566559831 889266 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: interesting.have to have a look if there are useful frameworks for that < 1566559834 698328 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Amazon something something AWS, Microsoft something something USB stack, I'd have to find the references < 1566559838 287556 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but there's also such a thing as too many tests. have you ever manged to run the ghc testsuite or the gcc testsuite? < 1566559853 926176 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Dependent type systems leave that sweet spot behind (type inference doesn't work anymore) so I'm rather skeptical of those. < 1566559862 48622 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't. I tried, but they take a very long amount of time to run. < 1566559894 788745 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Liquid Types are a sweet spot between dependent types and HM :) < 1566559902 735873 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume haskell to be relatively easy to proof first order properties for < 1566559942 746669 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know where to even start for something like java without a full-blown model checker < 1566559947 12424 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some software does it well, where it has a smaller testsuite and a full testsuite. in some sense gcc does that too, with its three-stage compile: it compares the second and third stage binaries to each other, ignoring a few bytes that are allowed to differ, and they must be identical. < 1566559957 813405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm new keyword for me < 1566559976 377050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly buzzword, need to see about that < 1566559985 209682 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://wiki.haskell.org/Liquid_Haskell < 1566560015 371157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that... < 1566560078 727730 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1566560175 595070 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566560195 685470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, it mentions "stack". :-P < 1566560203 977156 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I agree "Liquid Types" is a horribly-hip-sounding name. < 1566560222 185389 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Short for "logically qualified types" I believe < 1566560284 89512 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/video/liquid-types/ agrees < 1566560310 520503 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: The emphasis in industry is usually on reactive systems, so, model-checking state-machine-like descriptions is popular (TLA+ and Microsoft's P language come to mind) < 1566560382 436558 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, should be fairly easy there < 1566560413 330559 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What Are 10 Examples of Liquids?" - "liquid types" is not the perfect search term. < 1566561986 666825 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to wait until there is more to read on one of two files I have open. C: use select(). Haskell: you must write Concurrent Haskell program now, oh and make sure to use STM because MVars have race conditions < 1566562109 357471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :?! < 1566562109 479622 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: v @ ? . < 1566562120 1361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MVars have race conditions"? < 1566562155 261183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Maybe you mean deadlocks? < 1566562159 352551 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have any specific questions? < 1566562174 415796 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They are appropriate for building synchronization primitives and performing simple interthread communication; however they are very simple and susceptible to race conditions, deadlocks or uncaught exceptions." < 1566562191 432450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the race conditions angle. < 1566562196 684097 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use them wrong, sure < 1566562219 939506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other two, yes, they are true. < 1566562224 918670 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of Control.Concurrent seems to read like this. "We have these but you shouldn't use them, really" < 1566562303 62105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to think about lock dependencies with MVars. < 1566562319 610380 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566562340 468511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming you use MVars as locks. MVars are also mailboxes, message queues of length 1.) < 1566562375 642600 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also have to think of deadlocks when you use them as queues < 1566562393 247418 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MVars are *simple*. STM is a huge black box. < 1566562393 835218 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :travelport has a full-blown api for quite some time where the documentation just says "this is not supported by any of our data backends" < 1566562400 417443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: sure < 1566562477 710901 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I need is select(). There used to be an hSelect, they got rid of it. There's a package on hackage which is an FFI to select which is probably the best I can do. < 1566562515 923620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So, again, I agree with that quote, except for the race conditions part, which to me suggests a completely broken MVar implementation. < 1566562528 105868 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have any opinion about eta/frege? < 1566562630 507624 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1566562691 793257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or maybe I do have an idea. It used to be the case that "readMVar" could block (namely, if you use the MVar as a 1-slot queue, so there can be several pending writers.); maybe "race condition" alludes to that kind of phenomenon... < 1566562760 74549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs < 1566562808 933043 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or people just write bad code with MVars, which has race conditions that put their own high-level data in a corrupt state < 1566562825 827767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Concrete scenarios rather than keywords would help. The keywords are just scary and cannot be filled with content unless you spend a lot time thinking up scenarios... or happen to know them already.) < 1566562844 116931 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, specific questions are better < 1566562854 799816 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I'm not generally a fan of languages that are slight variations on other languages. < 1566562855 356003 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with code samples and expected output and stuff like that < 1566562866 909272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we have real-life stories of STM livelocks? < 1566562898 139441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe just a scenario where the rts spends 99% of the time in managing the STM transactions, so nothing productive happens? < 1566562926 775457 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: valid point, but both are not really aimed to be slight variations afaik < 1566562937 947229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is STM so complicated that it's only used by people who know what they're doing... and who, in particular, keep their transactions short so that this is a non-issue? < 1566562987 11311 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I'm thinking more of Fay and Elm which are only "Haskell-like". I got the impression Frege was "not actually Haskell" too, but it might be the wrong impression. (Eta's website make my browser complain about phishing risks or something) < 1566563038 715592 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Frege is a Haskell for the JVM." ... What does it mean to be "a Haskell"? < 1566563056 915338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In any case I'm perfectly happy to use MVars in simple cases, like waiting for a worker thread to finish, or managing exclusive access to a mutable data structure. < 1566563059 987898 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was "Frege is a Haskell compiler for the JVM" that would be fine < 1566563127 843190 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Maybe you should learn you a Haskell for the greater good! < 1566563150 393280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(typing this is painful) < 1566563344 459576 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :both attempt to compile haskell for the jvm with different approaches < 1566563357 898859 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :frege does overload the dot operator, for example < 1566563369 243457 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, foo.bar is different from foo . bar < 1566563399 668005 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could just take a semi-non-trivial Haskell program and try to run it in Frege and see if it complains or not. < 1566563489 273107 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I would believe that STM scares off everyone who is not already rather expert at writing concurrent code, yes < 1566564059 559344 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1566564726 957334 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566566582 392590 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably just use Control.Concurrent.Chan when it comes to it, it should be fine (single reader, multiple writers, nondeterminancy is okay). < 1566566796 382623 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah the only problem with Chan is that it doesn't prioritize the reader when the channel gets full (a key difference to channels in Erlang). < 1566566871 288708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :STM doesn't solve that one, and bounded channels are comparatively crude. < 1566567197 438014 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't see any mention of what it means for a channel to become full, in the Chan docs < 1566567281 88868 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact it mentioned the word "unbounded" < 1566567293 189565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Which hides a problem... < 1566567331 607146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...namely, if your reader cannot keep up with the producers, you have a (kind of) memory leak at your hands. < 1566567356 675987 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehm. Technically yes. In practice, this is unavoidable though, right? < 1566567383 736207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure but you can be more clever about it, if your scheduler knows about channels. < 1566567422 706627 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some cases, the producer can block, or detect the problem and drop frames < 1566567423 536485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying it's a big problem. Just something to be aware of in a corner of your mind if you rely on channels heavily :) < 1566567482 992339 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1566567500 646135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And something that I found surprising when I first heard about it.) < 1566567529 396971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And that's the main reason I bring it up. It could be a pretty nasty surprise.) < 1566571168 242321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566571239 992305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: wait, how is a[a[a[x]]]++ UB? the increment has to happen after all the array dereferences < 1566571291 329751 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't it an UB if it increments a[x] or a[a[x]] because the indexes coincide? < 1566571312 911571 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait, maybe it's not < 1566571328 479768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because the dereference is sequenced before the increment as the increment uses its output < 1566571335 971565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that needs a language lawyer, I think < 1566571473 334098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in terms of "just write your code in asm", I'm often tempted, but ideally I want to write a high-level description of the code so that it's portable and easy for a human to see it's correct, but want it to compile down to efficient asm on at least one commonly used platform < 1566571486 322256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean this is in an area where I can hardly imagine a compiler going wrong, but I have no clue what the UB rules say about this. < 1566571493 240268 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look this up, maybe this applied only to my language where the main loop included a[a[1]++]-=a[a[1]++], which was an UB because it sometimes had to write into a[1] with the -= operator < 1566571520 415159 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the post and preincrement has or had extra UB rules more strict than for other assignments < 1566571529 983382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (it just needs a fucking printf) ← there's print!(), which isn't quite the same; are you doing one of the few things where the difference matters? < 1566571532 520657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they can be rearranged by the optimizer < 1566571554 471728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: /that/ example is UB because the ++s aren't sequenced with respect to each other < 1566571641 791171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: For the time being, I think proving code correct is one to two (decimal) orders of magnitude more time consuming that just writing it. ← I've heard 1 order for enough testing to be fairly confident it's correct, 2 orders for an actual proof that it's correct, 3 orders for a proof that it's correct that can be machine-verified to not contain a fallacy < 1566571662 934472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually written code in the last form, it taking 1000 times longer than expected seems about right < 1566571699 182510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the programs being verified were very simple and would normally take less than a minute to write) < 1566571722 915392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I include some amount of debugging and testing in the "just coding" category already. < 1566571754 276524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you can have a project that's heavily tested and yet still be confident that it's wrong < 1566571755 3619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sure, the factor is worse for programs that you already know how to write :P < 1566571760 552084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the spec implies a lot of hidden complexity < 1566571785 976096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"compile all C programs correctly", for example, is a nice simple spec at the surface level, but when you dereference the reference to the C standard, suddenly it's hard to be confident that your spec is correct < 1566571806 147000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, ironically, you will *not* know in detail *why* they are correct; you'll be replicating an internalized pattern instead. < 1566571834 599639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this is why I think declarative languages are so valuable: the program /is/ the spec, so the only way the program can be wrong is if the spec is wrong or if you translated the spec into code incorrectly < 1566571868 763688 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that's also kind of a weakness though. You can't check a program against itself. < 1566571872 179447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have also written formally verified code. It wasn't trivial, and I think a factor of 100 is pretty much what we got.) < 1566571884 748592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :machine-checkable. < 1566571911 150371 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well ok you CAN, but it's a tautology.) < 1566571915 200971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess you'd need to get two different people to write the /specification/ and see if the programs matched < 1566571923 712111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be useful, because buggy specifications are very common < 1566571935 390922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did a thought experiment about FizzBuzz recently < 1566571946 523544 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Basically yes, it's kind of like coding theory. 3 specifications would be ideal, you could go with majority-rules < 1566571949 89440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, target language makes a difference... we exported code to Haskell in the end, and purity helps. < 1566571965 463532 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Kind of expensive though) < 1566571969 325849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want mutable data structures, things get worse. < 1566572015 604217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with a specification like "for all the numbers from 1 to an input n, output 'Fizz' if the number is divisible by 3, 'Buzz' if the number is divisible by 5, the number itself if it's divisible by neither 3 nor 5, and a newline unconditionally" < 1566572036 988610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the program /is/ the spec" <-- in many cases that's only true if you don't care about performance... < 1566572057 381395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you start thinking about issues like, "OK, where does this output go? What file format is it in? Is this meant to be readable by humans or computers? What about internationalization?" < 1566572087 897618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"say there's an error halfway through the fizzbuzz, do we delete the output so far? leave it there and make the program resumable somehow?" < 1566572102 785541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how do we parallelise this?" < 1566572112 387017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I see that as a deficiency in the languages more than anything else < 1566572113 631561 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, I think you're right about the 3SP case, that one is fine to be written as a[a[a[x]]]++, even if the indexes may coincide < 1566572147 747374 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so are other cases where there's only one assignment and that's the outermost expression < 1566572175 565746 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, you can definitely give a specification which doesn't entail any particular efficient implementation strategy; how should such a language pick one? < 1566572190 317143 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least according to the C11 rules < 1566572199 843995 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, ideally, yeah, you could give it hints in comments or something, but - far from an easy problem < 1566572222 175843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Uh, I disagree, at least given our current imperfect state of compilers. I want, as a programmer, control over the algorithm used to solve a task. < 1566572264 894348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that will be part of the program... < 1566572274 425333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think it's impossible that computers will eventually be better at that than humans < 1566572286 693231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe in an ideal world where we could solve the halting problem my attitude would be different ;-) < 1566572313 357076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I noticed a while back is that if you just run all possible algorithms in parallel (assuming finitely many), and terminate when one ends, you get the best possible big-O performance (and a terrible constant factor) < 1566572326 498659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah that's a classic. < 1566572329 687179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thought this might actually be viable in a golfing language < 1566572361 278342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It usually comes up in the following form: "We can write a TM that solves SAT in polynomial time iff NP \subset P" < 1566572410 157864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the point with NP being that we can check in polynomial time whether we've succeeded) < 1566572420 462815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by generating programs and executing them in parallel until one of them comes up with a valid solution, then you don't care how it was made < 1566572446 615381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm pretty sure you don't mean \subset there, you probably mean either = or \subseteq < 1566572450 874429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is something you need, really; "all possible algorithms" need to be filtered for correct algorithms for your task at hand, somehow) < 1566572456 928846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which are equivalent in this case because P \subseteq NP) < 1566572484 547359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I mean \subseteq. < 1566572509 847484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to write NP (= P :P < 1566572542 698450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly realises that (= and =) as operators would not be ambiguous in a C-like language, although )= would be < 1566572556 701578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which Isabelle/jEdit expands to ⊆.) < 1566572566 896645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, LALR(1)-ambiguous, that is; )= might be unambiguous if you have a generael parser < 1566572634 965744 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( a =( b && c )= d <-- it would be horrible nontheless ) < 1566572654 860898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nonetheless < 1566572658 626404 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still waiting for the esolang that uses Earley or CKY to find all possible parses and interpret them all in parallel < 1566572659 866207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you wrote =( not )=, which is what the unambiguity relies on < 1566572685 101536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's probably only interesting if this is somehow the only way to gain TCness < 1566572699 769584 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did I :) < 1566572713 68867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway... let's drop this < 1566572723 102402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tangent of a tangent anyway < 1566572733 353831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not speaking geometrically) < 1566572734 289682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what the channel's about? :-) < 1566572757 465409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :geometrically, a tangent to a line is the line itself, and tangents are lines, so you can't stack them more than one level < 1566572794 50243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. hence the qualification. < 1566572818 293722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I had ideas about a declarative golfing language which makes a guess about what order to run the commands in < 1566572854 745642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically by knowing what the computational complexity of each possible flow pattern for each command is, then trying to avoid bad complexities < 1566572888 177599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't perfect because the program might have a quadratic or even exponential blowup in data size, but it's going to do a lot better than most existing declarative languages if I ever get around to writing it < 1566572931 149626 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding the path of least complexity sounds rather complex by itself < 1566572960 358668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that's O(whatever) in the size of the program, not the size of the data it processes < 1566572985 145152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this explains where the controversy over the computational complexity of regex-with-backreferences comes from < 1566572998 732504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can find articles online saying it's NP-complete, but I think it's in NL < 1566573003 539544 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm. "Insulting instruction in step $rs.\n" <-- do you recognize this? < 1566573015 286709 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: SMETANA? < 1566573028 173615 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smetana.pl, rather < 1566573045 710711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason is that running an unknown regex-with-backreferences runs in NP time (you can encode 3SAT in it), but with any known regex, you can compile it to run in NL time with respect to the length of the string it's running on < 1566573057 235078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: right < 1566573062 931887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you're good :) < 1566573084 146801 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very few of the languages I've designed have used the term "step" < 1566573091 863213 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that was a big hint. < 1566573107 852530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very long time ago, I started writing an esolang-based text adventure < 1566573124 617809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had a set of stairs where the steps were SMETANA commands, and swapped around as you tried to climb them < 1566573151 711037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you could go up or down, making it into a puzzle) < 1566573227 822768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: regex-with-backreferences is CFL, isn't it? < 1566573271 977388 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ais523 suddenly realises that (= and =) as operators would not be ambiguous in a C-like language" => the latter would be ambiguous in C++, where you can write (mytype::operator=) as an expression < 1566573280 408285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, it's more powerful; it can solve a^n x a^n x a^n which a CFL can't < 1566573334 601236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this feels morally equivalent to a^n b^n c^n, but regex-with-backreferences can't solve that due to the weird nature of backreferences < 1566573339 271979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm really playing with https://esolangs.org/wiki/SMETANA_To_Infinity! but I was wondering about the precise differences between that an your original :) (It turns out that the original is case sensitive, really insists on the order of statements, but is less space sensitive than S2I.) < 1566573380 274016 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"makes a guess about what order to run the commands in / basically by knowing what the computational complexity" => there are libraries where if you multiply more than two matrices, then it looks at their sizes, and multiplies them in a way that it's (hopefully) the fastest. something similar happens in SQL with complex statements, especially joins < 1566573380 768234 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1566573393 798725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, mini-opinion poll: if a language is generally whitespace-sensitive and has semantically meaningful newlines, should it insist on its input file ending with a newline? < 1566573419 317380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :codegolf.stackexchange.com persuaded me to allow omission of the final newline in BuzzFizz, but I'm not sure that's correct < 1566573503 375381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is non-technical, but I hate it when cat-ing a text file messes up my next prompt, so I like final newlines. < 1566573505 686022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, "text files must end with a newline" is an archaic rule that very few people seem to care about nowadays < 1566573515 534389 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes I could use a different prompt, but that's besides the point.) < 1566573522 847836 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you want to handle including a file into another file, or processing more than one input file (eg. given as multiple command-line arguments)? < 1566573545 536872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I think shells should add a new newline if the prompt wouldn't start at column 1, but you can't do that by configuring a typical shell, you'd have to patch it < 1566573569 247632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: not in the case of BuzzFizz, it's a fairly constrained esolang; but I guess I'm also interested in a more general answer < 1566573577 234037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include normally has a newline after it anyway, though < 1566573580 547799 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are handling only one file, then definitely don't insist on it ending on a newline. if you handle multiple, then it's probably best to not require it, and consider file boundaries as boundary of line too, but I'm less certain and may depend on the syntax < 1566573602 73915 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Page feed is underrated, that's all I'll say < 1566573617 735788 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"should add a new newline if the prompt wouldn't start at column 1" => you sure can, you just have to put the right thing into PS1 < 1566573623 445874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you mean formfeed? or is this a new control character I'm unaware of? < 1566573653 361653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still disappointed that people don't use nextlines as their newline character, but I can see why that happened (in most encodings, a nextline is two bytes long, which is a major drawback) < 1566573653 620948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in practice it's probably least controversial to just treat the end-of-file as a newline unless immediately preceded by a newline. < 1566573668 920428 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include normally has a newline after it anyway, though => the C syntax does, sure, but the TeX \includefile is weirder < 1566573679 184087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I can't think of a terminal control code that would have that effect non-interactively < 1566573685 182691 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :on control characters: one time I was enamored by US, RS, GS and FS (an alternative to CSV) < 1566573727 731403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hmm… what about a cursor-right of the terminal width - 1, then outputting a space, then a goto-start-of-line? depending on how wrapping worked in the terminal, that might work < 1566573738 283212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then you need to know the terminal width to do it, though < 1566573759 523309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I can see RS and FS as a CSV alternative < 1566573765 245866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do the other two do, though?# < 1566573784 407314 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: uh, "\b\r\n" sort of, but I'm not sure it works in the first line < 1566573815 127074 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more robust would be printing as many spaces as the width of the terminal, then a "\r", but you need to know the width of the terminal for that < 1566573816 803430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\b\r\n is equivalent to \r\n on just about everything, I think < 1566573840 792014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tested gnome-terminal < 1566573842 784644 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I don't remember how that worked < 1566573877 475837 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, cursor-right with an arg count might work better < 1566573882 190779 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if I named them correctly, US (unit separator) should be the tightest one and FS (file separator) the least binding one; RS is record separator and GS is group separator, I thought it meant groups of records, let me look up a link… < 1566573882 548522 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1566573886 563076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'as many spaces as the width of the terminal, then a "\r"' does work, just tested that < 1566573887 989737 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1566573911 811901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: oh, file separator not f ield separator < 1566573915 731863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so US and RS, then < 1566573933 884936 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: \x1F is for the biggest blocks, \x1C is for the smallest blocks, in sequence for the two between, forget their names < 1566573940 286516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm upset at people not caring about the C1 control codes < 1566573959 622708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a Unicode encoding, UTF-1, that's designed to allow them all to be given literally < 1566573963 641609 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods gravely < 1566573965 323710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not very popular < 1566573977 926116 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wob_jonas: found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimiter#ASCII_delimited_text thought wob_jonas has said it already < 1566574009 605186 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1566574015 572469 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: no, I got them backwards < 1566574016 937967 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stupid < 1566574023 962964 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's backwards from how it should be < 1566574034 287102 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x1C is for the largest blocks and \x1F for the smallest < 1566574045 378946 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that always annoys me so I should have remembered < 1566574050 365449 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1566574051 621615 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mixing them up once I think too < 1566574077 844345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it suddenly struck me that Perl's $; is logically a unit separator character, but it's actually file separator that's used as the default value < 1566574087 951841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes clashes less likely, but it's also less semantically correct < 1566574117 767804 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566574180 509600 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you may laugh but I once thought that UTF-1 (by some dark magic) is a 1-bit encoding < 1566574257 262613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't seem particularly implausible? < 1566574264 65626 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32 and UTF-7 all contributed to this, yeah < 1566574280 308962 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think I hadn’t known the last one then < 1566574283 34978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just find some arbitrary-width numeric encoding (e.g. Fibonacci encoding), use it to encode all the codepoints, and concatenate < 1566574306 442991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a UTF-5 < 1566574326 842555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also a UTF-6 but, confusingly, it's a 5-bit encoding) < 1566574345 106920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and UTF-9 which was an April Fools RFC < 1566574380 469913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The use of UTF-32 under quoted-printable is highly impractical < 1566574455 461736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, UTF-1 is actually more efficient in space usage than UTF-8 up to and including U+38E2D < 1566574459 693131 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-5 and UTF-6? I hadn't heared of those < 1566574484 859057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because it doesn't limit continuation bytes to a particular range, they can be ASCII or extra start bytes < 1566574527 696351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, printable ASCII < 1566574584 712809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :control codes, both C0 and C1, are encoded as unambiguously as possible because UTF-1 was intended for use with decoders that used control code sequences to switch between encodings and/or as metadata for themselves < 1566574585 709674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. terminals < 1566574645 351961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly realises that literally encoded C1 control codes are never prefixes of valid UTF-8 codes, so you could in theory write a terminal that supported them in all locations except mid-UTF-8-character < 1566574656 829011 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which one is the standard (perhaps ECMA) that gives the full general grammar for terminal-style escape codes? I know some of the basics, but not the full grammar for it < 1566574671 873153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ecma-48 < 1566574709 712309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's confusing to read because it gives character codes in decimal-coded-hexadecimal < 1566574739 682884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it refers to Ecma-35 for encoding handling, though, and Ecma-35 compatibility is why things like UTF-1 were invented < 1566574751 116022 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: alternately make the terminal take utf-8 encoded C1 codes (when it's generally reading utf-8 input, obviously), which also works except in the middle of utf-8 characters < 1566574800 583664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I was planning to do that anyway < 1566574809 753228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not particularly useful because C1 codes can be encoded using C0 codes < 1566574818 984959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the benefit of 7-bit terminals) < 1566574823 463976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that only makes them a byte longer < 1566574839 471923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the technique that's almost universally used nowadays to send C1 codes to terminals, as it's no longer than the UTF-8 encoding would be < 1566574852 867198 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1566574936 305564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's why ESC [ is so common in terminal control codes used practically, because ESC [ is the C0 encoding of the C1 control code CSI < 1566574969 56192 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1566575219 267810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I /finally/ understand the distinction between presentation and data cursor movement commands < 1566575228 529153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to do with right-to-left languages < 1566575243 217259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the presentation cursor movement commands move, e.g., "left" or "right" < 1566575257 913867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the data cursor movement commands move, e.g., "forwards" or "backwards" through the text < 1566575269 786594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the correspondence between them is different when over LTR text and when over RTL text < 1566575332 313751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1566575345 143478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566575549 685941 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, chapter 5.4 in ECMA 48 is relevant. < 1566575643 449033 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1566575646 216789 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's control codes hour < 1566575651 804071 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :any good esolangs based on ECMA-48? < 1566575679 683456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably Ecma-48 /is/ an esolang < 1566575684 379099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, probably not < 1566575733 510002 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: keyboard codes that the terminals emit for various combinations of settings and keys and modifiers < 1566575779 17720 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: do you know why, in vim, if you press escape to exit insert mode then press O to open a new line in insert mode, it doesn't immediately react? < 1566575804 991123 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the combination works, but only updates the screen at the next keypress < 1566575826 717224 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this puzzled me for a while < 1566575837 412391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk for an horu < 1566575841 272269 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566575975 777475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because keys like the arrow keys that don't correspond to ASCII often send control codes starting with ESC O, and vim is trying to disambiguate < 1566575991 577870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libuncursed does the same thing, but with a timeout, and the timeout is very short nowadays so it's hard to notice < 1566576055 33514 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1566576072 107259 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is also why you can get control code junk in your irssi session if you're using mosh and it reconnects after a long drop < 1566576081 457937 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mosh will dump a bunch of control codes at irssi all at once < 1566576100 66755 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and irssi paste detection will interpret that as a literal paste < 1566576107 724439 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why it thinks i want to paste control characters, I do not know < 1566576121 159565 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe mosh should have an option to slow it dow < 1566576121 869126 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1566576152 4851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1566576174 494042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe this is occasionally happening with plain ssh as well) < 1566576193 794262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on laggy connections (yes those still exist) < 1566576226 346298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the "this is a paste" control code should have been standardised so that paste detection doesn't have to be done based on timing < 1566576237 136641 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I know, I use one < 1566577824 413150 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1566577852 600200 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566578473 277255 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566578705 935471 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566579300 557439 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566579993 277513 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566580446 996684 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566580992 362718 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is _that_ why that happens < 1566581028 536629 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, the terminal interface sucks. < 1566581538 187342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One big scow about mosh is how I can press some keys while not connected to the network and it buffers them forever. < 1566581549 386514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no ay to clear the buffer. < 1566581612 823873 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah that's terrible < 1566581617 397012 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah < 1566581634 84835 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminals are one of those "why have we still not come up with a better way to do this" things < 1566581642 408953 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess the benefits are not worth the legacy breakage < 1566581650 327474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terminal software is scow in the first place. < 1566581656 73414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUIs are TG (in theory) < 1566581657 951408 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, things mostly work now. it's not cutting edge < 1566581664 961047 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe in text for input, GUI for output < 1566581668 226062 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most cases < 1566581674 320915 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hybrid < 1566581690 509086 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you were talking about irssi < 1566581712 396851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just ridiculous that the idea of pasting text with a newline that somehow turns into sending a message is even a thing that has to be worked around. < 1566581733 410580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :in-band signaling is certainly scow < 1566581748 499304 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1566581896 747527 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course GUI software has its own issues. < 1566581989 804876 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is bad < 1566582051 860950 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you could make a IRC program where you press ctrl-S to send or somehting < 1566582153 415738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about an IRC program where you press enter to send but when you paste text containing a newline character it doesn't trigger that? < 1566582175 316645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, another thing about terminal programs is that there are a bunch of keys you just can't detect correct. < 1566582188 247622 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be possible < 1566582203 185959 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :On most systems in raw mode, enter is \r < 1566582232 725821 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so assuming pasted newline is \n < 1566582243 944573 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could distinguish them < 1566582295 151579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if your text contains \r? < 1566582327 592232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are workarounds for a thing that shouldn't even need workingaround. < 1566582329 325197 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you're fucked. there's no out of band signals in ssh afaict < 1566582363 590902 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct keyboard acess remotely is a bad idea anyway IMO < 1566582402 364743 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566582587 259552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ysaclist < 1566582587 898425 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ysaclist: boily shachaf < 1566582955 946399 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566583147 235339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1566583182 94571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ugh, the terminal interface sucks. ← it has precisely one problem, which is that the Esc key sends the Esc character code, which is a prefix of some other character codes < 1566583194 683446 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there are a lot of other problems with terminals < 1566583216 114225 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :termios is a whole mess < 1566583217 852732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this wouldn't be a problem if people expected to use Esc as a way of typing terminal control code sequences, but people normally think of it as a key on its own, thus an ambiguity < 1566583230 48174 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's ISO-2022 locking control codes, which are terrible < 1566583249 345367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the "this is a paste" control code should have been standardised" => it is. there are at least two different such codes standardized. < 1566583258 462228 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the great thing about standards < 1566583262 898291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I guess being able to /type/ XON/XOFF is a problem too < 1566583302 775422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: there are plenty of signals that are /meant/ to be out of band, the issue is that you can type them anyway < 1566583419 144190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, I knew about the \eO thing, the vim behavior puzzled me because all I noticed is that sometimes the O command behaves like that, and didn't notice that it's when the previous keypress was \e < 1566583468 45221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, perhaps the underlying issue is UNIX's conflation of text and binary files < 1566583492 118089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C0 and C1 codes in text files are supposed to have a specific, standardised meaning (and in theory, the text file should contain specific byte sequences to identify itself as using them) < 1566583510 214461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas in a binary file, bytes with bits 5, 6, and 7 clear could mean anything < 1566583534 622218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! I like all those things. and I like that control-M and enter type the same thing and I don't have to teach each terminal program individually that they are the same, and if I didn't like it, then I'd chnage the bindings of the terminal < 1566583566 222822 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like being able to use the same programs for all sorts of files < 1566583620 392491 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Are you still using Microsoft® Windows®? < 1566583670 559919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reinstalled Windows 7 this week. < 1566583699 558986 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hmm, is that a smart thing to say on a publicly logged channel...) < 1566583761 707032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not particularly dumb, the windows-specific malware can tell it directly anyway, it needn't look on irc for that info < 1566583765 371614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If Windows 10 has taught us one thing, it is that we hate updates." < 1566583803 521639 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1566583808 735518 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :™ < 1566583835 181717 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real reason is that it's the last cloud-free Windows. And it's just for games. < 1566584006 867865 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566584526 598741 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566585046 881932 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I boot to Windows once every few months which means does a trillion updates each time. < 1566585051 530333 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566585070 846500 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand why it takes so long to update. < 1566585529 671849 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566586418 286108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: IIRC at least some versions of the Windows update algorithm are not O(n) < 1566586424 829073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Microsoft didn't notice for ages because the constant factor was small < 1566586451 461179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566587985 143373 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566588339 875046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 4^6 < 1566588340 493239 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 4096 < 1566589686 996545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On ifMUD there is a @paste command in case you are making a multi line paste. (Another alternative would be to use other software with xclip to add a prefix to each line.) < 1566589789 46348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(However, there is then @endpaste and @quit both of which override the paste mode.) < 1566589811 471531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1566589909 601427 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1566589965 998151 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566590125 160084 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up < 1566590249 973067 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566590460 602909 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566590492 978281 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it has precisely one problem, which is that the Esc key sends the Esc character code, which is a prefix of some other character codes" I also think that is what is sometimes the problem, and would not be the problem if people expected to use Esc as a way of typing terminal control code sequences. < 1566590519 937907 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody ever would do that < 1566590535 921645 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One thing to do would be for escape to have a longer code when application keyboard mode is enabled.) < 1566590605 911571 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is the meaning of [ in Vim, I think. < 1566590652 569580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: zzo38 would! < 1566590668 831053 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566590673 51777 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but nobody ever would do that" is on the list of famous last words. < 1566590723 983542 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1566590759 381684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're proposing alternate designs for terminal interaction you've already lost. < 1566590786 761717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main reason to use terminals that work the way they do is compatibility with 1970. < 1566590792 73876 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is fine how the escape works; rather, some programs try to do it something else, that is a problem. < 1566590901 656974 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The command [D list all defines, but instead if it could mean, move cursor left and reenter previous mode (if escape is pushed in command mode then it will set command mode as the previous mode and remain in command mode), then maybe it will work. < 1566591891 963709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think so. IMO for vi, the main problem is what the escape key does in insert mode. I generally use control-C to exit insert mode, which is not quite equivalent but mostly is. you could have control-C be completely equivalent (and some other key do what control-C does now) and not use escape at all. < 1566591901 70478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then escape would be used only to introduce control sequences. < 1566592019 299734 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that would be another way to fix it. < 1566592151 705785 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566592324 204206 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566592330 507725 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566592560 135704 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what, I just pasted a command into my shell and it had a newline at the end so it got run! < 1566592580 872541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was certainly my intended behavior, and not a misfeature or bad UI. < 1566592918 541346 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.19.60.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566593006 806317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I tried to compile a Rust program and it downloaded over 100 dependencies. < 1566593357 455688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the directory size is 1.8G < 1566593619 768045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been writing Go for fun lately. It's got modules now. < 1566593640 673824 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Godules. < 1566594152 219417 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566594162 780081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, I said "orientation" instead of "direction". < 1566594170 733915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :v. embarrassing < 1566594270 60483 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1566594783 399602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566595671 947803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a SMETANA to Infinity! pre-quine... (pre-quine = program that generates a quine as its output) < 1566595728 902621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all quines are pre-quines? Why are pre-quines interesting? < 1566595742 497416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: scary < 1566595743 475443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you can be somewhat sloppy in generating them. < 1566595767 770467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :smetana to infinity sounds like a hard language to make a quine in < 1566595780 355457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: In this case, the final quine will have 5-digit labels (so starting from 00001) but the pre-quine doesn't, it starts at 1. < 1566595783 391378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean there probably exists a quine, but to actually construct one is hard < 1566595845 778894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: about how long is it? < 1566595864 420575 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you ever play Zork: Grand Inquisitor? < 1566595881 687492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1.3MB for the pre-quine... it's still computing the final one. It's... slow. < 1566595913 29856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There's lots of room for improvement. < 1566595916 307872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1566595931 886406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell us when you've verified it (by running twice and comparing) < 1566596042 656315 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566596073 915221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wonder if anyone ever managed to say a fungot quine < 1566596074 140846 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hello ski :) ( actually i don't think you could like rephrase it? do you normally see? < 1566596092 603493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that doesn't use hat commands that is < 1566596101 931552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1566596102 14342 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1566596131 524976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would be easier to write one with ^ul < 1566596191 915592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Quine lists some quines that give a starting point < 1566596200 483598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow: It'll execute 2,460,020,224 swaps to process 35072 bits of data (twice). < 1566596250 27412 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judging by the progress so far it'll take an hour or two, and then about the same time again to verify. Fun! < 1566596326 593108 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1566596734 344821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underload is normally my goto language for botquines, if they support it < 1566596735 350335 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyskkqkooyubleul QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566596744 159547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ < 1566596744 285871 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ < 1566596759 667868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's really easy to write quines in it < 1566597424 388110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566597584 559729 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Please repeat this sentence, including the prefix "fungot:". < 1566597585 82326 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you could look into chicken. csc gets a lot randomer soon. away for a while google had a paper on an experimental sun pipeline i was looking fro a short cut. < 1566597587 923677 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1566597652 689072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Please repeat this sentence, including the prefix "fizzie:". < 1566597672 303215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Please repeat this sentence, including the prefix "fizzie:". < 1566597689 7852 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Please repeat this sentence, including the prefix "fizzie:". < 1566597883 965682 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566599040 529139 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose all quines would be pre-quines, but, not all pre-quines are quines. Is that it? < 1566599140 491704 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a pre-quine < 1566599213 710641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That's what I suppose also. < 1566599229 470392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pre-quine is apparently a program that outputs a quine. < 1566599302 788185 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1566599309 88203 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then a quine is certainly a pre-quine < 1566599322 978432 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566599325 291753 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can make a quine into a not-quine pre-quine by prepending a nop or something < 1566599329 110610 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes what zzo38 said is true < 1566599344 280380 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there interesting things to be said about pre-quines? < 1566599386 107060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. My guess is that it might depend on the programming language in use, but generally not. < 1566599577 995415 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:100e:bbc6:3da5:acd4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566599617 125061 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there interesting esolangs where you don't have the property that you can easily make a program longer/different with something like a nop? < 1566599730 960593 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1566601677 839110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 101 minutes. I think I'll use an alternate method of confirmation (namely, drop all those extra 0s that the quine generator put in and compare... which looks fine!) < 1566601751 960608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/quine.s2i :) < 1566601852 563644 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a good programming language. It's called md5sum. < 1566601856 111658 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should write a quine in it. < 1566601904 401327 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> exp (-1) < 1566601906 632381 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0.36787944117144233 < 1566601921 226909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: a priory that's the chance that such a quine even exists. < 1566602188 158815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh for a fixed file name. If you can vary the file name the chances get better :) < 1566602206 241719 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just typing that. < 1566602208 555542 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566602404 259542 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought by taking from standard input? < 1566610198 698576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: we can't be sure that an md5sum quine exists for that particular case. < 1566610288 276621 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all theoretical anyway. < 1566611241 771270 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566611649 90432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ah that was the chance that no such quine exists. Math is hard. < 1566611781 296634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: progress: wc quine.s2i --> 15577 123672 574944 quine.s2i (down from 36687 291488 1354436) < 1566611816 69877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it takes less than 20 minutes to run now too. :) < 1566611818 838662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1566612076 869032 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566612517 180165 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566612775 986947 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65608&oldid=65581 5* 03A 5* (+579) 10 < 1566613212 289832 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1566616766 271978 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566617466 894102 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote this instruction set document: https://arin.ga/3RKb8w < 1566617946 935532 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what exactly is this arch for < 1566618014 609726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing; I just made it up because I thought to write something < 1566618154 267705 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1566622801 900198 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any other comments or just ":P"? < 1566623256 158598 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, not really < 1566623468 263718 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1566623731 358521 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566625079 140014 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566625715 940675 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1566627275 626889 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65609&oldid=65608 5* 03A 5* (+103) 10 > 1566627574 858303 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65610&oldid=65609 5* 03A 5* (+74) 10 > 1566627698 134809 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65611&oldid=65610 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10 < 1566628052 997761 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566628164 268661 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566628178 523376 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566629271 207626 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566629493 976336 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566630056 970621 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65612&oldid=65611 5* 03A 5* (+50) 10 < 1566630111 986145 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1566630356 154646 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65613&oldid=65612 5* 03A 5* (+72) 10 < 1566632458 598154 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566632743 595046 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1566632913 124999 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65614&oldid=65613 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10 < 1566633861 228645 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566635514 713127 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566635645 126090 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566635907 2057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: great > 1566637908 764825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65615&oldid=65614 5* 03A 5* (+136) 10 > 1566638284 283989 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65616&oldid=65588 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+0) 10/* Emoji-gramming */ formatting variable just in case. > 1566638355 757368 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65617&oldid=65615 5* 03A 5* (+181) 10 < 1566639017 480905 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: still working on that, 9520 lines now, and I have one significant idea left... < 1566639124 981678 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(getting below 10k is nice because it shortens the labels) < 1566639224 510777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1566639363 303078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm really writing Haskell code, of course.) < 1566639406 345780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a code generation monad and `mdo`s everywhere... < 1566639455 190291 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1566639627 279511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1097189/ is the non-creative part, just the monad and pretty-printing, and support for strings. < 1566639840 722318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mdo? Golly. < 1566639896 568775 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's great for dealing with forward references!@ < 1566639900 520436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/@// < 1566639934 150812 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mdo goto x; char 'z'; x <- lab <* char 'x'; return () < 1566640155 594504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i { Label x = new_label(); goto(x); ...; set_label(x); ... } < 1566640227 39124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's probably what I'd do without lazy evaluation. < 1566640277 953687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what a nicer way to express that without laziness is. < 1566640289 129807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: note also that this is one of those use cases where performance really hardly matters. If I get my quine in a second I'm happy. > 1566643490 285843 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65618&oldid=65617 5* 03A 5* (+42) 10 < 1566644442 915172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: write it as { x:; ...; come_from(x); ... } then there's no forward reference < 1566645557 727795 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'm seriously reaching the point of diminishing returns. (Or the point of no return, who knows.) < 1566645617 718740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'll stop here, at 8940 lines. < 1566646206 398999 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how fast does it run? < 1566646647 505069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/int-e/57eefc6cce29ed47ddaaca13a0774533 < 1566646657 370289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes less than 6 minutes now < 1566646670 936996 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So still slow, but much better than where I started :) < 1566646690 935043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :user 5m45.328s < 1566646830 593422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a faster interpreter would help too) < 1566646861 904049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 100 / (36687/9130)^2 < 1566646863 998306 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6.193229241204714 < 1566646872 965020 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly quadratic :) < 1566646894 711297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 100 / (36687/8940)^2 < 1566646896 675114 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5.938142812200899 < 1566647929 782373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I actually developed full boolean operations for SMETANA (representing booleans by pairs of operations... the second one is there so that they can be negated) but for the quine I got rid of most of that infrastructure. > 1566650170 884855 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SMETANA To Infinity!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65619&oldid=64372 5* 03Int-e 5* (+262) 10link to quine > 1566651518 100299 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65620&oldid=65602 5* 03A 5* (-389) 10My brain went stupid. < 1566651892 951306 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-usyduyjtmfhhyzpc JOIN :#esoteric < 1566651967 3454 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566652223 976513 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566655381 571820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you recommend me a firefox plugin where I can set rules to rewrite urls when I follow a link, to load a different page instead? This is something that perhaps ais523 would like too, with his local copy of rust documentation. < 1566655422 148360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need it for the url of top-level pages only, not for frames/images/stylesheets < 1566655482 155004 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use moz-rewrite, which can also rewrite request and response headers too < 1566655502 318216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: thanks, I'll try that < 1566657148 304558 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566658383 115524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is that a firefox add-on? my firefox browser doesn't seem to find it under that name < 1566658443 598728 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566658717 595773 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5b5:327a:38a6:c190 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566658985 213079 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566659202 506545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Firefox add-on < 1566660487 204075 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 > 1566662247 598696 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SMETANA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65621&oldid=49752 5* 03Int-e 5* (+34) 10/* Computational class */ SMETANA can iterate, putting it into the LBA class rather than mere decision trees. < 1566662764 253343 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566663208 882769 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.56.194 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 > 1566663957 485961 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:SMETANA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65622&oldid=8203 5* 03Int-e 5* (+2388) 10Boolean-oriented programming in SMETANA > 1566664066 930871 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:SMETANA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65623&oldid=65622 5* 03Int-e 5* (-3) 10/* Basic Programming */ formatting (should have previewed) < 1566664089 244441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think I'm done with SMETANA / SMETANA To Infinity! < 1566664893 993600 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:3d8e:fd28:8db6:6d83 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566664985 993215 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566665160 32244 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:3d8e:fd28:8db6:6d83 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566665247 973920 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566665440 239064 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566667500 184106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566667548 707663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Are there interesting esolangs where you don't have the property that you can easily make a program longer/different with something like a nop? ← languages like the I/D machine and cyclic tag, adding a byte anywhere normally implies restructuring the rest of the program to accommodate it (but there are fairly well-established techniques for doing so) < 1566667567 566689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you treat comments as either not permitted or not NOPs < 1566667715 861129 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't that only if you don't originally plan for that and don't put enough padding statements? < 1566667729 513832 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566667788 16709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: in the case of the I/D machine there are only a few places you /can/ safely put padding < 1566667871 549811 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566667963 926317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, for the I/D machine that's tricky < 1566668100 199517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566668172 119223 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the problem with JSON is that you can't put comments or trailing commas. It would also be good to allow unquoted keys (in addition to quoted keys), though. (There are also some types not available in JSON, such as integers (JavaScript now has it, with a "n" suffix to indicate a integer), and type annotations (the parser in use would have to know what to do with it, otherwise it is an error).) < 1566668346 77710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would JSON support comments. It's not for human consumption! < 1566668375 857020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566668486 854846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is useful if you want to write it manually, which sometimes would be. (A converter is possible, but that still doesn't support integers.) < 1566668840 496280 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566669145 715467 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566669215 839702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566669227 959903 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566669353 280620 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566669731 846635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sometimes you can put comments in fields that the reading program will ignore < 1566669739 785269 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566669843 783382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I want to advertise JSON < 1566669882 515164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's another of those things like XML where it would never occur to me to use it on my own initiative. I've only parsed JSON when there was already another party up that produced it. < 1566670362 76849 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566671747 318821 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566671940 210236 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566672534 597871 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Because the lack of concessions JSON makes to non-machine use are to blame for people using YAML? :) < 1566672549 795730 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww that's even worse < 1566672553 260115 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566672554 23669 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1566672614 600220 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.oO(am I allowed to say that? jevalbot uses a config file in YAML format. but I wrote that ages ago and I'm no longer maintaining it.) < 1566672644 695195 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, I think you are. YAML is pretty miserable as a config file format. < 1566672649 735211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've had all that much exposure to YAML < 1566672652 760571 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's a major use of it. < 1566672671 688788 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's one of those formats that initially looks simple, but has dragons within. < 1566672696 573044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've touched a travis.yml file, I suppose. It wasn't so bad to write. I don't want to know about parsing. < 1566672731 388854 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML#Advanced_components < 1566672767 92772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah I was happier not knowing that. < 1566672768 956174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't see what else you'd want to use it other than as a config file format. it's basically designed for that, because you can write it in various forms so it's hard to read. < 1566672778 460124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm not sure that JSON is to blame specifically. < 1566672788 955484 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be possible maybe to use a subset of YAML, maybe < 1566672803 585266 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's designed as a config file format, but it's also way too powerful as one. < 1566672804 983621 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would more generally blame XML (which has been used as a configuration file format...) < 1566672873 929538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what is good for configuration format can also depend on the program being configured; sometimes is helpful to have more than one file. < 1566672894 24312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily that's not too common. I can only recall one software that uses XML as a config file format: fontconfig. < 1566672903 533274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But honestly I have not given much thought to configuration file formats. I guess I find the [section] key=value format simple and sufficient for many uses < 1566672917 286925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :JSON and INI are also used, and also a variant of INI without section headings, and also X resource manager format. < 1566672923 25379 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: You'd probably like TOML < 1566672951 957761 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Do you mean INI format? < 1566672965 819019 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the _easiest_, but it's reasonable enough. < 1566672975 671421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: doesn't look too bad < 1566673099 998590 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do see XML used for a lot of stuff that XML isn't so good for. < 1566673115 465195 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For most things, XML is not good for, I think.) < 1566673163 670283 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO the main problem with INI is it's not especially well-specified as a format. < 1566673215 758813 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if it's suitable for your purposes there's nothing stopping you from just _saying_ exactly what your program thinks an "INI file" is. < 1566673271 192426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The context I was wondering about that in originally was something like making the busy beaver function not monotonic. < 1566673667 538578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah I meant INI format < 1566673728 942980 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agree about underspecification of INI. When someone needs arrays or hierarchical sections, there’s only lore, and no guarantee there are no conflicting traditions < 1566673892 370347 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the very basic cases it’s okay, but I’m glad TOML is getting some traction (I heard about it in Ceylon community some time ago, it was being implemented for something in one of its tools) < 1566674282 794549 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: for one thing, AFAIR XML is a giant of a format. Though I don’t know how it compares to something like YAML, by the way what do you people think about YAML? It should be a great deal to parse, maybe even harder than XML?,, < 1566674320 330700 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1566674325 286947 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566674360 923195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :XML is much less hard to parse if you don't expand entities (which most parsers do anyway to ignore security bugs) and ignore xml namespaces (which you can mostly do if you don't care about accepting some false positives with incorrect namespaces) < 1566674403 968131 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was actually being talked about prior to my entrance < 1566674431 8061 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ah and the previous one are about YAML) < 1566674546 790708 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-usyduyjtmfhhyzpc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566674569 563553 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many other format, and which one will be good can depend different thing. I think sometimes X resource manager format can be good < 1566674803 981499 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one day I thought about an extended SGML-like format in which you can write something like this: < 1566674804 100150 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<< if <[ cond ]> then <[ block1 ]> else <[ block2 ]> if >> where cond, block1 and block2 can be “tags” too and usual tag arguments can still be given too, though they can maybe now be obsoleted < 1566675024 516598 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I used other delimiters than << <[ ]> >> but can’t remember which ones exactly < 1566675060 555608 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that time they looked meaningfully sensible < 1566675118 179492 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it can be simply then< b1 >else< b2 >if> but that would be hard to read < 1566675221 179540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that time they looked meaningfully sensible" => so did "((!!ifdef " when I made Olvashato. it does look rather stupid in retrospect. < 1566675382 110226 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a complete tangent, sometimes I want to read “destiny” as “density” < 1566675788 691440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i probability destiny function < 1566676051 902095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( you're headed for a great destiny ) < 1566676128 73184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's not all that easy to come up with contexts where both words make sense :) < 1566676129 502947 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(6<=length$w && $k{$k}) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } # arseniiv: < 1566676130 453164 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :expect:except \ conversation:conservation \ reserve:reverse \ aboard:abroad \ caller:cellar \ density:destiny \ bedroom:boredom \ casual:causal \ converse:conserve \ gateway:getaway \ median:maiden \ marital:martial \ preserve:perverse \ patrol:portal \ tribune:turbine \ barely:barley \ carving:craving \ eternity:entirety \ insect:incest \ mental:mantel \ parental:paternal \ parental:prenatal \ resource:recourse \ silver:sliver \ bowler:blower \ clobber:co < 1566676175 65057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this, anagrams where first and last letter agree? < 1566676199 570693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566676204 556371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at least 6 letters long < 1566676241 509546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k}) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } # these are the shorter ones < 1566676242 583868 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there:three \ from:form \ board:broad \ trail:trial \ could:cloud \ bread:beard \ diary:dairy \ stake:skate \ crab:carb \ calm:clam \ carve:crave \ rogue:rouge \ stain:satin \ slate:stale \ wrap:warp \ bolt:blot \ barn:bran \ coral:carol \ crap:carp \ clot:colt \ grab:garb \ lion:loin \ panel:penal \ slit:silt \ smile:slime \ trap:tarp \ trot:tort \ unite:untie \ adobe:abode \ bulge:bugle \ crony:corny \ fart:frat \ forth:froth \ liar:lair \ prep:perp \ pl < 1566676282 573410 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh a great food for thought < 1566676308 414838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m glad I started a fruitful conservation < 1566676322 7343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k} && 24<=%_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } < 1566676324 855784 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't modify hash dereference in postincrement (++) at -e line 1, near "%_c++" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. < 1566676332 110521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k} && 24<=$_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } < 1566676332 445213 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh carp < 1566676333 259866 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :smile:slime \ trap:tarp \ trot:tort \ unite:untie \ adobe:abode \ bulge:bugle \ crony:corny \ fart:frat \ forth:froth \ liar:lair \ prep:perp \ ploy:poly \ slide:sidle \ salt:slat \ spine:snipe \ cold:clod \ curd:crud \ flier:filer \ grid:gird \ gutsy:gusty \ slave:salve \ tenor:toner \ scrap:scarp \ today:toady \ brain:bairn \ meaty:matey \ stair:sitar \ bard:brad \ pasty:patsy \ sole:sloe < 1566676341 944099 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(6<=length($w) && $k{$k} && 24<=$_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } < 1566676342 884682 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bowler:blower \ clobber:cobbler \ complaint:compliant \ cruelty:cutlery \ filtration:flirtation \ farmer:framer \ infarction:infraction \ relive:revile \ barely:bleary \ blotter:bottler \ binary:brainy \ brasserie:brassiere \ cavern:craven \ coroner:crooner \ crusty:curtsy \ lentil:lintel \ perfect:prefect \ reunite:retinue \ specter:scepter \ singer:signer \ stripe:sprite \ spotlight:stoplight \ unrelated:unaltered \ brocade:barcode \ grenade:grandee \ ga < 1566676595 44381 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm by the way anybody knows of some interjection/imitation word dictionaries for English in text form? It’s hard for non-native (I think many here would understand) to use usual dictionaries to master them > 1566676620 882134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* 10New user account < 1566676624 953491 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I think those are used in Japanese only < 1566676667 908796 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I happen to describe a bunch of my recordings at Freesound.org, I often struggle to find good tags and write something useful in the description < 1566676686 487482 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why? how? < 1566676804 813547 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something like Urban dictionary has them all and even more, but I’m still at a loss about a techique how to use it effectively so I don’t use it at all > 1566676851 912644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65624&oldid=65597 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+257) 10 < 1566676911 922499 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it would at least need filtering, both of definitions and by “word alignment”) < 1566676914 135333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :InfiniteDonuts <- that's a lot of holes > 1566676985 378674 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:InfiniteDonuts14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65625 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+235) 10Created page with "Hi! I am InfiniteDonuts. I joined Esolang because one of my favorite things to code are strange, hilarious or difficult esoteric programming languages. I have so far created..." < 1566677012 81639 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm donuts allow one to encode sufficiently complex structures to make an esolang? < 1566677072 9234 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a donut inside of a donut, can one (un)wind the first around the hole of the second? < 1566677297 489628 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: if you're very good at food sculpture, you could probably program Efghij by sculpting imitations of objects from donuts < 1566677326 255187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1566677331 763620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll have to bake the donuts unusually structurally stable though < 1566677397 360894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: or move into a low gravity environment < 1566677406 947693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm > 1566677412 611318 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65626 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+223) 10Created page with "Flop is a 2-dimensional esoteric programming language created by ~~~~InfiniteDonuts. Flop is probably Turing-complete." < 1566677439 860818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but then it becomes less enjoyable to eat the program > 1566677451 784109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65627&oldid=65626 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-78) 10 < 1566677453 358143 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point of using donuts if you can't eat them in the end? < 1566677577 254187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh my goodness what a language < 1566677614 614225 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why, one can eat them in low gravity, why not? > 1566677615 249356 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65628&oldid=65627 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+234) 10 < 1566677625 873146 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren’t liquid after all < 1566677639 996622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you can, I'm not saying it's impossible, it just gets less convenient or less enjoyable > 1566677661 960861 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65629&oldid=65628 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+29) 10 < 1566677773 991553 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though low gravity is cheating < 1566677839 59310 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it just gets less convenient or less enjoyable => maybe the first but why the second? what can be more enjoyable than free falling and eating a lot of structurally unstable donuts < 1566677843 835161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1566677868 901119 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yum yum < 1566677883 180327 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though donuts are the devil as I had said a while ago < 1566677904 41625 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep > 1566678238 339319 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Majestic53 5* 10New user account < 1566678642 720454 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566678777 255551 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566678814 374079 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1566678887 784971 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65630&oldid=65624 5* 03Majestic53 5* (+247) 10 > 1566679055 134354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65631&oldid=60981 5* 03Majestic53 5* (+106) 10 < 1566679608 330497 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566679778 312314 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566680774 565360 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1566681610 95807 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566683253 607810 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566683662 216689 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1566684058 313917 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566686055 990117 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566686116 295885 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :donuts!! < 1566686120 315578 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ate a chocolate donut today < 1566686128 37614 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as my wife said "nothing says I love you and care about you like a donut" < 1566686323 973545 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:69de:a374:cb3d:c9a7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566686524 240453 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566686678 329945 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566687788 951414 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566687972 201487 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566688518 600279 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eryhsmlqlzvraghj JOIN :#esoteric < 1566689279 826285 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently, bystand can post each message to only one server. I intend I can add the possibility to post to multiple servers, in case you are posting to multiple newsgroups, some of which are not Usenet. However, it seems would be more difficult to keep track of it in case one posting is successful but posting to a different server failed. < 1566689352 98969 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566689600 585135 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have suggestions about this? < 1566689634 154303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if I mentioned yet, but the ICFP contest results are out < 1566689656 79600 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Do you have the link of the details? < 1566689692 268903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/ and https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/assets/icfpc19-report.pdf < 1566691681 696151 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566691683 483534 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi all. What parser is easier to write from scratch: top-down parser (LL) or LR (like what Yacc generates)? < 1566691974 309674 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done both, but, I don't know. < 1566692000 675839 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LL recursive descent is probably the most straightforward. < 1566692028 293060 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjarne Stroustrup in his books writes LL parser for calculator, right? < 1566692047 17200 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He do so because it's simpler? < 1566692076 775683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your compiler doesn't do tail-call elimination, how should you write a recursive descent parser? < 1566692092 408648 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're writing it entirely by hand, it really is the obvious straight-forward approach to doing a parser. < 1566692124 199586 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though with some downsides, e.g. you can only recurse as much as your stack will let you. < 1566692138 394337 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is particularly a problem if you don't have TCO) < 1566692155 330865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How bad is it to manually write the state machine? < 1566692162 909126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like it could be pretty bad but maybe it doesn't have to be. < 1566692166 660076 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the language, honestly. < 1566692174 888045 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally kinda unpleasant though. < 1566692200 55711 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is state machine to be implemented for both LL and LR parsers, for a simple calculator? < 1566692228 35124 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a yacc grammar, use ayacc to compile it < 1566692249 986820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just write the parser by hand < 1566692252 985662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a calculator < 1566692277 244077 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, for a calculator? Yeah, a hand-rolled recursive descent parser isn't even that bad to write. < 1566692284 890596 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks! < 1566692285 3530 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And will honestly be perfectly sufficient. < 1566692305 210747 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also use other parser generators, such as Lemon, if you don't like yacc and ayacc < 1566692321 710734 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm not that good yet < 1566692345 552355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're certainly not going to get that good by using yacc. < 1566692378 961695 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what is wrong with it? Too old-school? < 1566692410 935355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you don't know how to do the thing by hand, and you want to know, you should learn how to do that first. < 1566692419 445358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you use a parser generator or something later. < 1566692453 574196 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: true < 1566693020 847305 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1566693201 541437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566693227 287457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: IIRC LR parsers end up the same as the LL parser in cases where the grammar actually is LL < 1566693311 913349 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK < 1566693338 828363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... what do you mean by "the same"? < 1566693358 20962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, the basic difference is that with LR, you don't have to decide what you're parsing immediately as long as you know what comes next < 1566693376 118938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you parse what's in front, then use that information to determine what the thing you just parsed was < 1566693383 234012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1566693398 167379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the grammar is LL then there's only one possibility, so the LR parser can be optimised into the LL parser via constant folding < 1566693427 720605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the state machine is different but if you're open-coding it as functions rather than using an interpreter, it comes to the same thing < 1566693438 970637 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is "open-coding" < 1566693440 470238 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1566693475 814539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1566693517 219740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: when you have a state machine but you just translate it into a higher-level language ignoring the fact that it's a state machine, you just write out what it does < 1566693526 727056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than using some sort of state machine interpreter < 1566693534 893238 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see, thanks < 1566693586 720977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayacc, my own implementation of yacc, generates open-coded output (or at least tries to) < 1566693624 26929 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is this any better than state-machine? < 1566693640 566621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a different way of writing the same thing; I think it /can/ be better, but isn't always < 1566693686 641080 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe it can be good for architectures with expensive memory accesses... :) < 1566693743 405279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'd expect an open-coded parser to be more friendly to the branch predictor, but potentially to cause more pressure on L1 cache < 1566693773 760346 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: L1-code cache? < 1566693785 534845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1566693792 105666 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see, thanks < 1566693809 728960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: none of which probably matters because the tree parser is almost never the bottleneck < 1566693876 386833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: isn't the lexer the normal bottleneck to a non-optimising compile of a low-level language? < 1566693883 866755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely because it has more data to deal with than any of the other parts of the compile < 1566693887 894490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also it has to read from disk) < 1566693924 543843 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: reading and writing the disk may be the bottleneck, but that doesn't have much to do with the lexer and parser I think < 1566693938 508737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm increasingly thinking it makes sense to combine the lexer and parser (after all, they're both state machines) < 1566693954 484169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lexer and parser? I just met 'er! < 1566693955 568914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case, the technique used to implement the combined lexer/parser may well be very relevant < 1566693994 99141 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I right I can implement lexer using yacc/EBNF forms? And to get rid of lexer? (Which would be weird, of course.) < 1566693999 713378 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a language with really good coroutine support that lets you implement state machines easily and clearly. < 1566694014 714551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can combine them. you get unbounded lookaheads if your input is the individual characters of an identifier. (or 255 tokens of lookahead if you limit your identifiers to 255 characters) < 1566694014 751259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: yacc requires a lexer of some sort, but it can be as simple as getchar() < 1566694036 544959 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, if lexer is just getchar(), I can do everything in yacc, right? < 1566694040 820310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: yes < 1566694076 129365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: only if you need to know what's beyond the identifier to disambiguate, otherwise you only need to look ahead the length of the longest keyword < 1566694103 716861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :% expr: product | product '+' expr { $$ = $1 + $3 } product: atom | product '*' atom { $$ = $1 * $3 } atom: '1' { $$ = 1 } | '(' expr ')' { $$ = $2 } < 1566694109 107975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/%/%\n/ < 1566694119 31867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an example grammar I'm using to test out generated parsers < 1566694132 589248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1566694142 15830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code ayacc generates for it looks like this: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/example-ayacc-output.c < 1566694170 210261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually contains the parser twice, once in debugging mode, once in non-debugging mode, because all the "are we in debugging mode?" checks really get in the way < 1566694197 368858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so look at yype_start_expr onwards to see what an open-coded parser can look like < 1566694224 281919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible to do better, all the faffing around with yyvalid is needed to comply with POSIX rules on lexer/parser interaction < 1566694240 188687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally you don't care about those, so that code could all be optimised out < 1566694245 543344 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't close to how Bjarne Stroustrup his LL-calculator? < 1566694267 783066 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't close to how Bjarne Stroustrup makes his LL-calculator? < 1566694274 566696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any good examples of "solving a problem by reducing it to a seemingly-harder more general problem"? < 1566694276 10974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the generated code is pretty close to what a hand-coded LL-parser would look likee < 1566694282 390792 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: aha, I see < 1566694299 243179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: all the relatively powerful esolangs that we implement things like The Waterfall Model in to prove them TC < 1566694311 803413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, the more general problem probably /is/ harder, it just happens to have already been solved < 1566694350 101630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1566694362 846394 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sure, but that's not the same. < 1566694417 768104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://mathoverflow.net/a/92259/ < 1566694446 928318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One good example is Buffon's needle problem. < 1566694547 940808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, some of those reductions to prove turing-completeness may count < 1566694711 418254 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566695483 791682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buffon's noodle is too good. < 1566695545 364658 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1566695564 642276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone gave me another example: Can you cover a 2^n by 2^n chess board with one of the center squares removed with L-shaped tri-minoes? < 1566695596 841234 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/10/buffons-needle-easy-way.html < 1566695818 518931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, you obviously can for a 4×4 board < 1566695827 226607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which bothers me a bit, that sort of question is normally only asked when the answer is "no" < 1566695874 438285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you even more obviously can for 2×2 < 1566695887 314656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can do it for a 8x8 too < 1566695895 61021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 1x1 board too < 1566695954 451552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1×1 doesn't really fit IMO, there will normally be 4 centre squares but a 1×1 board only has 1 centre square < 1566695962 85518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the operationn of removing one of the centre squares works differently < 1566695993 183590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do it for a ½ by ½ board? my guess is no, regardless of what square you try to remove you'll be left with -¾ of a square, which isn't divisible by 3 < 1566696031 497677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course n is a natural number. < 1566696157 889592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a nice inductive solution: you can solve a 2×2 board with one *corner* removed; if you can solve an n×n board with one corner removed, you can solve a 2n×2n board with one corner removed (via replicating the solution four times, three times with the missing corner in a centre and once with the missing corner in a corner, then placing the L-shaped piece in the centre) < 1566696185 429012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all you have to do is reverse one quadrant of the solutions generated this way to get the missing square in the centre rather than a corner < 1566696201 113796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, that's the solution I came up with. < 1566696208 549780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's possible for all powers of 2 from 2¹×2¹ upwards < 1566696218 333051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh nice. that's not how I'd have done it, but it works < 1566696221 28523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see that solution as reducing the problem to a harder one, though < 1566696228 682378 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "easier more general problem" is to solve a board with an arbitrary square removed, rather than one of the center squares. < 1566696243 229507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "missing corner" problem is easier because you can just induce directly, rather than needing to go via an intermediate step < 1566696293 961432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you can see how to do it with a missing corner, you can then see how to do it with any specific square missing, but I didn't think of that until you pointed out the "arbitrary square removed" version < 1566696393 763017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "arbitrary square" solution is the same as the missing corner solution. < 1566696405 497754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, just the inductive hypothesis is different < 1566696414 686617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1566696433 155810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1566696473 550414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursion on power of two sized squares suddenly reminds me of that math contest problem that I solved < 1566696622 818365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more fun: if you can solve an a×a board and a b×b board, you can also solve an ab×ab board < 1566696637 149430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same proof, different inductive hypothesis) < 1566696646 84158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn it, that means I'm officially supposed to be good at this. but I'm not, I was just lucky with that one] < 1566696653 280794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3×3 is not solvable but 5×5 is < 1566696660 329373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 10×10 must be < 1566696699 639329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, you can omit the centre square in 5×5 but you'd need to prove an arbitrary square is omissible < 1566696741 943639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure the corners can be > 1566696742 164087 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Teg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65632&oldid=61553 5* 03A 5* (-4) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */ < 1566697502 425607 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eryhsmlqlzvraghj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566698162 813599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this style of precedence parser that's like an LL parser but with a precedence value passed around, < 1566699485 76372 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that the S4 and S3 signals on the 8086 processor are used to determine which segment register is in use. < 1566699567 383188 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :signals? like external pins? < 1566699606 785812 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1566701695 503709 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what pins? < 1566701729 849581 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: S0..S7? < 1566701753 396569 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolontaev: Yes, although I mean specifically the S4 and S3 < 1566701766 615808 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ah, googled: http://ece-research.unm.edu/jimp/310/slides/8086_chipset.html < 1566701946 558234 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: heh, maybe you can connect different physical memory banks for each segment register... < 1566701977 352293 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: like 1Mb for each of 4 segment registers? < 1566702034 362019 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is what I thought; I don't know if any computer is actually wired like that though < 1566702488 826568 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :many retrocomputing geeks dwells here: http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html they may know... < 1566702523 557586 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also #classiccmp < 1566702547 683990 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: oh thanks < 1566702556 951716 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: didn't know < 1566702577 59269 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :old PC stuff is in #oldx86hardware but low level 8086 questions are probably more at home in classiccmp < 1566702613 348475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should do NNTP instead of a mailing list like that (or as an additional interface to the mailing list). < 1566702796 762221 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: NNTP is pretty old-school. And you need a client for it. While mail is still used by many people around. < 1566703065 546979 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it would make it easier and more convenient to manage (both posting and reading), I think. < 1566703091 234292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I wrote a new NNTP client software recently, and a bit less recently, also a NNTP server software.) < 1566703207 641382 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it wasn't you who run gopher server couple of years ago?.. < 1566703302 730111 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have a gopher server. (Although some other people have set up a gopher server, too.) < 1566703316 323823 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh < 1566704301 222084 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1566706190 963563 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65633&oldid=65606 5* 03A 5* (+257) 10 > 1566706210 120286 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65634&oldid=65633 5* 03A 5* (+10) 10/* Golfed "Are there any mods here"? */ < 1566707159 768561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566710319 56549 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you distribute Usenet archives or mailing list archives as mbox files, then please ensure that any lines with "From " at the beginning are properly quoted. Do so by: sed 's/^>*From />&/' < 1566710409 351393 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have downloaded one that does not do any such quoting. And, some email software also uses improper quoting, such as 's/^From />&/' instead of 's/^>*From />&/'.) < 1566710502 912024 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Either that, or don't use mbox format.) < 1566712944 565309 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1566717922 934521 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566719183 752546 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566720398 241786 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1566720978 34003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1566722010 684810 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566722057 828799 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1566722183 544534 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566724342 505331 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566724617 398507 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566724634 306509 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566725309 473319 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566725446 444106 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566725466 289713 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1566725678 408023 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566725736 118839 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric < 1566726299 612051 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566727298 415520 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566727344 605466 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566728717 53568 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Quit: Quittin'. < 1566728790 222725 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1566731235 808942 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566731485 613592 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566731512 412995 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566731756 559506 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1566732111 541523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -ne '/^([a-z].*bit\b)/ and print "${1}coin\n"' share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3cmn.txt < 1566732112 223217 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ambitcoin \ cohabitcoin \ debitcoin \ exhibitcoin \ gambitcoin \ habitcoin \ inhabitcoin \ inhibitcoin \ orbitcoin \ prohibitcoin \ rabbitcoin \ tidbitcoin \ two-bitcoin < 1566732620 217035 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1566732800 261132 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566733419 761827 :kolontaev!~kolontaev@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1566734405 238689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to hate these two weeks > 1566735808 26154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65635&oldid=65634 5* 03A 5* (+265) 10/* Golfed "Are there any mods here"? */ < 1566736245 221712 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566741715 58976 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mjmobvtobnatfkli JOIN :#esoteric < 1566742742 513874 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd JOIN :#esoteric < 1566744655 603378 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566744838 539654 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b9b5:8db5:37d9:11bd QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1566752994 40483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? week < 1566752995 101917 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :week? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566753129 173942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( In America, the week starts on the seventh day. ) < 1566753290 64051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, more like two weeks < 1566754094 516854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Week starts on the seventh day? < 1566754353 224117 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in America only < 1566754458 545893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confusil. < 1566754471 18067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which day is that? < 1566754496 696922 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in Gregorian chant, the scale starts on the fifth note. < 1566754762 334977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: either Sunday or Saturday, depending on which numbering you take < 1566754962 106602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds like int-e thinks that (a) the week starts on Monday and (b) people in America think the week starts on Sunday. < 1566754967 435251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of which are false. < 1566755192 939715 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I saw somewhere that week seems to start on Sunday somewhere that calendar was made for < 1566755228 835676 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in retrospect it would be not so consistent with the word weekend < 1566755280 889389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would then need to be something like weekborder or weekrim < 1566755338 733048 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weektip < 1566755422 116171 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it seems in at least both English and Russian “end”/“конец” mean not only a final point of something in time but also any furthest spatial points of something < 1566755460 963264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The week certainly starts on Sunday. < 1566755471 711590 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it could hypothetically be applied to the starting moment also. It should look very strange though < 1566755472 459145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e should know that, as a German speaker. < 1566755494 189374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Hebrew, Sun-Fri are named "firstday", "secondday", etc. < 1566755514 161036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the weekend is Fri-Sat so it all works out. < 1566755516 243246 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it would be strange to say something like “beginning” to designate furthest spatial points < 1566755546 585393 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a peculiar thing, I bet there is a linguistic theory to explain it < 1566755913 254862 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Germanic days of week are the Germanic gods, except Saturday. But in some languages they use Lyeday instead, which is also Germanic. But, if you replace "Saturday" with "Lyeday" and then abbreviate Thursday by Thorn instead of T, then you can have different alphabets of the days of the week. < 1566755923 35867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with no duplicates) > 1566755971 649363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65636&oldid=65629 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+1343) 10 < 1566756107 509912 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still vote for if you want to abbreviate the days of the week, call them W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, W-5, W-6, W-7; and if you want to abbreviate months, call them 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12 < 1566756156 126732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and until we make those exclusive, I wish calendars show both the month number and the traditional month name, rather than just one of them, because it's the job of a calendar to track that, not mine < 1566756167 687370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still always get confused about what the name of month 08, 09, and 10 are > 1566756170 270307 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65637&oldid=65636 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+126) 10 < 1566756175 687171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the rest of them down more or less < 1566756178 814329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datei < 1566756179 365731 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-08-25 18:02:59.099879507 +0000 UTC August 25 Sunday 2019-W34-7 < 1566756194 583389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's W-7 and month 08 today > 1566756282 336098 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65638&oldid=65637 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+3) 10 > 1566756362 627295 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65639&oldid=65638 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+13) 10 < 1566756381 235087 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do often use numbers for the months, but not for day of week (which I use the three letter abbreviation). > 1566756477 792476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65640&oldid=65639 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+73) 10 > 1566756588 142188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65641&oldid=65640 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+346) 10 > 1566756650 324789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65642&oldid=65576 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+11) 10Added Flop! > 1566756754 168755 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65643&oldid=65567 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+318) 10 < 1566756768 896447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But German for Wednesday is "Mittwoch" which I thought means "midweek". < 1566756779 379970 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I presume Hungarian month names aren’t Roman-induced? (Russian ones are, so it’s a blessing and maybe also a curse, though I was to slow-minded to point out an irregularity between october, november, december and 8, 9, 10 when I learnt their latin roots) < 1566756789 193081 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it does > 1566756863 219434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65644&oldid=65641 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+1) 10 > 1566756891 595288 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65645&oldid=65644 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+0) 10 < 1566756920 283498 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we start weeks at monday, nontheless < 1566756939 802012 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like the middle of working week as middle of the actual week < 1566756984 465451 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still prefer it over the american system where the week starts of mid weekend < 1566756986 530235 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh nice, there’s analogous среда in Russian. Contemporarily it doesn’t easily parse as середина “the middle”, that what it should have meant a time ago, though it’s not yet that opaque. Though in wordplay and other matters it’s more often conflated with среда “environment” < 1566757022 798771 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe in German it is; I don't know German. But, I didn't say in German, but in Germanic, which is differently. < 1566757149 916453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also two Germanic names for Tuesday, and German uses the other one from English, it look like. < 1566757153 827391 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that in many Slavic languages which remained their traditional month names, they are in part incompatible between different languages, likely due to different climate, so leaves fall in one country at one month and in the other one at some other month < 1566757193 95077 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in german, there are two different words for saturday < 1566757253 864263 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second and more unuusual one is roughly translated as sun-noon < 1566757272 364417 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I looked on Wikipedia, and neither of them seem to match either of the Germanic names. < 1566757748 683108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like x^2-2bx+c=0? < 1566757924 568175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: don't we already have that somewhere in the logs? in the Hungarian names for the d-o-w, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday are derived from the slavic names which in turn come from the numbering where Wednesday is number three, and Tuesday is numbered but not slavic but finno-ugric numeral. < 1566757940 780397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this came up somewhere already, feel free to search the channel logs < 1566757953 910009 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: me personally maybe yes. In school when we were taught different formulae to solve quadratic equation I was angry for the case of even b, now I think it’s more natural one and other ones should be forgotten. Though that time it was taught not so coherent and maybe I was angry for a reason < 1566757984 486258 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah < 1566758025 606964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: also https://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/week.php < 1566758058 889544 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you are asking about the Month names? < 1566758064 834464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's different < 1566758156 4303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the month names of the gregorian calendar in Hungarian are more or less the same as the English and French ones, only spelled partly saner and partly less sane < 1566758188 524930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(month 06 and 07 are the less sane part; 05 is the saner part) < 1566758193 762850 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hm for a split second I thought it was a page about weekdays in different languages and I remembered Janko Gorenc (I don’t know if he’s known here but almost every conlanger should know him as he makes himself known very actively, or was for some time, he’s collecting numerals, and even not as consistently as could then be used by anybody — no declension, no grammatical things at all, only 1…10 etc.) < 1566758224 953909 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh wait, you are asking about the Month names? => yes < 1566758281 808457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :numerals? like https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/index.htm < 1566758333 739012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I see, június and július. Here’s the same: июнь июль < 1566758374 760795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aside from those, the English and French ones are way worse in summary < 1566758378 978302 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there’s even a flat joke about an immigrant asking what’s the right one, июнь or июль < 1566758384 436189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who calls a month "May"? < 1566758476 527788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the french ones are typical french ambiguous short stuff: "mars, avril, mai, juin, juillet, août" < 1566758511 890301 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : numerals? like https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/index.htm => hm, I hoped Simon wouldn’t make the same mistake < 1566758517 281798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder when they made the revolution calendar, they invented entirely new and long and nice-sounding names to compensate < 1566758554 580647 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :English doesn't use Germanic days of month anymore either (although they did in Old English). < 1566758564 378271 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely I maybe would be able to remember what 5 is in some language, but how should I construct 555? < 1566758594 960166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the omniglot pages do include larger numbers (for many languages at least) < 1566758616 266728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but obviously it's not a full reference < 1566758623 739283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can look up numbers in a dictionary if you want < 1566758631 203266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :omniglot isn't meant to be one < 1566758693 965461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, numbers in Hungarian are easy, they only have six extra forms of declensions that ordinary nouns or adjectives don't have, and there's no fancy exceptional names for 11 or 12, it's all totally decimal except for that 10 and 20 have forms unrelated to 1 and 2 < 1566758756 940220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : omniglot isn't meant to be one => I mean it would be nice to include a relevant grammar fragment if there are basic numerals already < 1566758806 792585 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they only have six extra forms of declensions that ordinary nouns or adjectives don't have => hm interesting < 1566758830 143534 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how could it come to be?..) < 1566758880 253448 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe I misread what it should mean < 1566758889 5693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that part is serious. "kilenc" is the base cardinal form, meaning nine, the other forms are "kilencedik", "kilenced", "kilencedike", "kilencszer", "kilencedszer", "kilencrét". there are more, but you get them from these forms by ordinary noun declension suffixes. < 1566758909 517682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kilencedik" is the ordinal, meaning ninth < 1566758918 725319 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe I got it as intended then < 1566759049 523346 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :any noun declension will occur, because numerals can behave as ordinary adjectives, and adjectives can get declined as a noun as long as they're not used as a prefix epiteth of a noun phrase < 1566759137 167424 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russian has inherited some mess about cardinal numerals but it is no extra cases, it’s just that some numerals decline as nouns, other decline as adjectives and there are some others also, and this is completely transparent to native speakers, it’s only partly strange when one starts to learn linguistics at large, not even at a school level < 1566759154 615039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since "kilencedik" and "kilenced" behave as nouns, they will occur in any noun declension too, plus "kilencedike" will occur in a few of them < 1566759205 74870 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is true for other numbers too, even apart from "kilenced" having a certain fixed noun meaning that is obsolete now, meaning a tax that commoners payed to their landlords or something like that < 1566759236 614478 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a ninth part? < 1566759281 483113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, out of the remaining nine tenth after they payed one tenth as tithe to the church. or backwards, I can't follow which is which. < 1566759313 524970 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1566760204 847289 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1566760264 606820 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mjmobvtobnatfkli QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566761480 688135 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi < 1566761483 310440 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I detect Hungarian < 1566761528 127796 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a side note, I love this channel so far < 1566761679 817651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBPHacker: just Hungarian? there were far more than it < 1566761696 420868 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yeah I'm reading the logs now < 1566761715 74531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you not detect sweet cyrillic letters I carefully typed on my keyboard :P < 1566761724 482631 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Hungarian is one word my eyes are *very* trained to spot < 1566761743 361161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange :) < 1566762929 687959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use computers to spot words. they're good at it. < 1566763160 93570 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --hungarian 10 < 1566763160 827537 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown option: hungarian < 1566763162 821410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1566763166 997973 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --finnish 10 < 1566763167 850959 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :arvomioksesi oikseni henkohattaan luulevanamme lähestyvyydyt pysyvemmistä komentuelliksemme ahdosta soletettävälimiin plastaskemiksempaili < 1566763220 303982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there used to be some wisdom entries with hungarian text, but I don't think any of them remained < 1566763226 221530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I deleted all of them < 1566764954 47682 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why?.. < 1566764974 236603 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1566764976 606932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:lion//Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens. \ lifthrasiir//lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends. \ learning//Learning is disco, baby. \ ghoti//“Ghoti” is a very fishy spelling. \ at//At is a daemon for procrastinating commands. < 1566764985 312654 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though if that were me, I’d deleted my own too maybe < 1566765011 606885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1566765012 563812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 < 1566765017 357018 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:206) who's walter bright and why is he so bright locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc locks: guilty \ 916) DIE oh hey elliott \ 1117) nowadays I tend not to have a physical form at all though Interesting.............??? \ 1095) `addquote \item `addquote two quotes about quotes about django I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three ha < 1566765019 687618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1566765020 822785 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:ckego quotes about django \\ elliott\_: another quote? you're not helping \texttt{:/} ← and three giraffes. \ 1142) Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times. < 1566765133 260822 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566765252 159887 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566765306 706146 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1566765809 995094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, one does remain: < 1566765814 373962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? b_jonas < 1566765815 420287 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense. < 1566765831 101473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one does have hungarian words, and I wasn't even the one who created it < 1566765895 310871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I created lots of silly wisdoms, then later deleted many of them < 1566765912 183621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/b_jonas is probably the only one that contains hungarian words that I didn't create < 1566766039 867352 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hungarian words that I didn't create => I parse it that way now < 1566766083 387891 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it implies you created some Hungarian words, probably every other one :D < 1566766130 807048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's pretty likely that I created some Hungarian words, though probably not the ones in the wisdoms < 1566766142 408892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it may be just one wisdom, wisdom/ha < 1566766149 171816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there were a few other ones, but maybe no < 1566766952 939231 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566766980 262388 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566769412 681214 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566769528 236617 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566770354 937439 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566770656 8893 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566774729 365969 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1566774893 439314 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1566775173 186800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-165.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1566775583 977355 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566775669 546661 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ha < 1566775670 502456 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1566775842 79386 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1566776721 470892 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566777501 252452 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1566779780 964727 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-etdoagdiwfslxcho JOIN :#esoteric < 1566781253 303185 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1566781596 952388 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566781887 962653 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566783540 882603 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X-Clacks-Overhead is a non-standardised HTTP header..." I have seen it in NNTP too (when downloading a message from the aioe.org help desk newsgroup). < 1566787527 706612 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-etdoagdiwfslxcho QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1566788090 598866 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566788353 596454 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1566789310 236384 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566791869 911231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a book of philosophy of mathematics and logic. In one chapter they mention set theory with intuitionistic logic and Uniformity Principle. < 1566791875 602410 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know of that? < 1566793468 395956 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1566794603 935434 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566794883 939450 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1566795141 280242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566796471 264955 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566798114 863501 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they say that a set that is neither finite nor infinite is a "Dedekind set", but I cannot find that on Wikipedia. < 1566798348 772393 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Uniformity Principle? < 1566798430 597184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like identity-based encryption? < 1566798554 57411 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is identity-based encryption working? < 1566798619 640721 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uniformity Principle is defined as: Whenever an extensional binary relation R links every set of natural numbers X to some natural number n, there is some n that gets related to R by all such sets X. < 1566798650 687134 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall X. exists n. R(X,n) -> exists n. forall X. R(X,n) < 1566798661 617275 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the description I heard: < 1566798664 388907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is with intuitionistic logic, not classical logic.) < 1566798692 494732 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1566798694 166098 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use any string as a public key and encrypt things with it, and a central authority can issue private keys that can be used to decrypt. < 1566798708 101535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you could encrypt to a username. < 1566798810 148862 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it isn't so good probably < 1566798820 266210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1566798875 37320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's pretty neat that it's possible. < 1566799323 775731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing you can do is "attribute-based encryption". < 1566801094 597878 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1566801261 369451 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1566801273 950869 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric > 1566801574 608068 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65646&oldid=62052 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10Adding the year. < 1566801673 284641 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1566801930 662677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Microscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65647&oldid=45776 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-13) 10/* Commands */ seems like the tag dosent work when in
 tag.
< 1566801965 512766 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This defines the set of truth values as pairing propositions p with {x:x=0 and p} to make a set of sets. In conventional mathematics this is {{},{0}}, but with the kind described in this book with intuitionistic and uniformity, such a set is neither finite nor infinite.
< 1566801986 54930 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566802045 445255 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also has, that a set being nonempty is different from a set being inhabited.
< 1566802052 997604 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566802082 559838 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jumper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65648&oldid=65161 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10Woosh
> 1566802325 51565 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65649&oldid=47253 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10Yare yare daze
< 1566802336 849033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Is "inhabited" just stronger than nonempty because it names a specific inhabitant?
< 1566802371 756946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like this? https://home.sandiego.edu/~shulman/papers/lcm-bloomington-talk.pdf
< 1566802376 169378 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566802483 560181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It is stronger because it is intuitionistic logic, where (exists x. not phi) does not follow logically from (not forall x. phi).
< 1566802518 387455 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1566802525 897393 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I meant.
< 1566802538 477365 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK.
< 1566802540 874790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think those slides make a pretty compelling case for using linear logic for this sort of thing.
< 1566803030 737254 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1566803443 642190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does page ten have "n > n" but should it be "n > N"?
< 1566803710 324890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1566803743 36206 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how they doing
< 1566804604 539936 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566806739 234479 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566806825 949614 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" You can use any string as a public key and encrypt things with it, and a central authority can issue private keys that can be used to decrypt." => sure. the central authority fixes an algorithm to generate a random private/public keypair with a reproducible random generator seeded with the super-secret key of the central authority plus t
< 1566806826 466151 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he identity.  
< 1566806856 723853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only two problems: the central authority has to verify somehow who gets to own each identity, and the central authority has to make sure that the root key isn't stolen or lost.
< 1566807479 330518 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: You can encrypt without asking the central authority.
< 1566807490 917773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The public key is just an arbitrary string.
< 1566807496 664167 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh, that's harder
< 1566807519 345252 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you also decrypt without asking the central authority?
< 1566807545 397908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get a decryption key from them.
< 1566807579 38300 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you just encrypt everything with the central authority's public key and they decrypt the messages (or their block cypher keys at least) for you?
< 1566807611 232897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you don't need to give them the message itself.
< 1566807664 361358 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you only need to give the encrypted block cypher key
< 1566807676 408568 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's shorter than the message usually
< 1566807692 31110 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of a fixed size even if the message has a whole video
< 1566807734 560770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They give you a single decryption key that you can use to decrypt any message that was encrypted with your name by anyone.
< 1566807740 55913 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, how do you keep the message secret, unless there's a second layer of encryption or something? send it by snail mail?
< 1566807754 149157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: now that sounds more impossible
< 1566808023 745428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID-based_encryption talks about it apparently.
< 1566808159 117054 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566808480 931987 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1566808587 581305 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566810771 308392 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, um, dumb question but does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flop qualify as a Brainfuck-like? 
< 1566810870 137539 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a separate code and data memory, has a single head pointing into the data memory, can increment or decrement or zero-test the value under the data head but not much more
< 1566810900 442519 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but has more general control flow than brainfuck
< 1566810950 859800 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the data memory and code memory are supposed to be the same array, like in befunge
< 1566811021 327428 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not easy to tell anything from the description because it has no interpreter and no nontrivial programs
< 1566817749 854844 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1566817761 438969 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566818348 331875 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiyuYC0D4-AO0AonCfMifPQ has some nice classical music
< 1566818999 589516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh what a brilliant idea... let's display ads (in the console) when installing packages. How about running a crypto miner for half an hour before allowing your package to be installed?
< 1566819157 982836 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what?
< 1566819215 974680 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you make ads in terminal, i want at least some animation and mouse interaction
< 1566819325 442791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381 is the experiment in question
< 1566819388 228387 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh
< 1566819399 333322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The irony is that this really hilights a security problem.
< 1566819423 344367 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :display ads when installing packages => sure, installers for some commercial packages do that
< 1566819436 413564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should open a ticket asking how much he wants for planting a backdoor.
< 1566819436 552846 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: npm already has so much of those, one more or less won't matter
< 1566819450 671018 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :running a crypto miner for half an hour => I wouldn't exclude it, the installer also takes half a day to complete
< 1566819452 441657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That should be an attractive funding source!)
< 1566819638 303449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The source also mentions https://github.com/kethinov/no-cli-ads ... which is the corresponding ad-blocker.)
< 1566819651 468276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Let the games begin!)
< 1566819792 389396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. I received a U2F token in the mail and installation was almost painless (one configuration file for udev and things worked...)
< 1566820056 682913 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forken would be an interesting dick move
< 1566820201 65157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "forken" denglish?
< 1566820257 170523 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, to fork
< 1566820268 555152 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, forking is a way to relieve the pain of the maintainer, so it is a solution to the problem as stated. (Framed properly: "I'm tired of maintaining this software for free.")
< 1566820348 704346 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not maintaining, just making an adless-standard fork that automatically merges standard overnight
< 1566825603 300638 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566826277 947844 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-becwbxztcwsdbbxu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566827981 829355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65650&oldid=65645 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+103) 10
> 1566828017 171237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SNUSP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65651&oldid=53706 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+39) 10
> 1566828072 370603 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PATH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65652&oldid=33608 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+45) 10
> 1566828100 507549 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PATH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65653&oldid=65652 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+9) 10
> 1566828162 19597 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:InfiniteDonuts14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65654&oldid=65625 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-24) 10
< 1566828377 113601 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1566830978 413200 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1566831021 758216 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566831736 609373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :npm has some switches to control installation, you could perhaps use --ignore-scripts to skip the ads maybe
< 1566831803 920382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know if it works; I haven't tried it, but if the ads are loaded in that way then it might)
< 1566832345 352621 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, it seems to be, as far as I can tell. It has a "funding" package as a dependency; the "funding" package executes itself as soon as it is installed.)
< 1566832554 476924 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that seems a bit pointless
< 1566832580 488033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you don't trust the author/maintainer with their installation script, why would you trust them with their other code?
< 1566832648 106084 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that makes sense, although it is a simple way to skip the installation scripts for whatever reason (including, that you may wish to review the code before running the scripts, or add additional steps in between, or whatever else you might want).
< 1566833547 40520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Rogers system is better than Magnuson system.
< 1566833666 600022 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566833723 779147 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566834573 464332 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Another common way of expressing the base is writing it as a decimal subscript after the number that is being represented (this notation is used in this article)." I have also seen the base spelled out in words as the subscript, but it can be long. Also I have seen some documents use a hexadecimal subscript (in the same document with decimal subscripts!).
< 1566834585 536107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I propose to use subscripts with roman numbers instead.
< 1566834902 893366 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think of this?
< 1566835354 168788 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would avoid roman numerals if at all possible
< 1566835363 572589 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're really hard to use for numbers >~10
< 1566835510 260136 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566836009 495346 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in totally ambiguous scenarios, I’d propose writing the base in unary. Ironically, unary doesn’t belong to the family of numerations to which decimal or binary do
< 1566836077 882261 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it’s not enough, I’d write all the digits too maybe (and then unary is unnecessary), like 1001011_(01)
< 1566836099 791648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: That is going to be even more long than using words, I think.
< 1566836379 817104 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also they say that a set that is neither finite nor infinite is a "Dedekind set", but I cannot find that on Wikipedia. => seems like a terminological confusion. There are several definitions of (in)finiteness of a set, varying in strength when no presuppositions like the axiom of choice are made. When the latter is present, though, Dedekind (in)finite is equivalent to “usual” (in)finite. This can be useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin
< 1566836379 920165 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ite_set#Other_concepts_of_finiteness
< 1566836523 896071 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, this is in intuitionistic concept, then I don’t know how it relates
< 1566836563 487734 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: That is going to be even more long than using words, I think. => agree for ten, disagree for two :)
< 1566836581 407041 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my link is broken
< 1566836590 904107 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set#Other_concepts_of_finiteness
< 1566836640 327589 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it still could be useful. They couldn’t name those sets Dedekind without any connection to Dedekind finiteness
< 1566836769 812782 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is shorter than words in case of two, but, often you will use larger numbers for the base. If it is roman numbers then is as much as unary in case of two
< 1566837202 873139 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566837420 193953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566838403 660315 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65655&oldid=65650 5* 03B jonas 5* (+24) 10
< 1566838552 945197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1177
< 1566838553 994672 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1177: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1566841778 331928 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566841827 195249 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566843139 827400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65656&oldid=65643 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+86) 10
> 1566843459 536958 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65657&oldid=65655 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+258) 10
> 1566843623 530058 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65658&oldid=65657 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+147) 10
> 1566843683 650351 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65659&oldid=65658 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+6) 10
> 1566844254 102636 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65660&oldid=65659 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+164) 10
> 1566844363 677331 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65661&oldid=65660 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+16) 10/* A Brief Tutorial */
> 1566844438 772552 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65662&oldid=65661 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-18) 10/* Sample Programs */
< 1566845727 222438 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566847862 135902 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-becwbxztcwsdbbxu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1566848279 709915 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ozigsvmrkhiaojnx JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566850271 87591 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65663&oldid=59451 5* 03Quuxplusone 5* (+21) 10documentation of 'p' had the arguments in the wrong order
> 1566850487 839958 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65664&oldid=65663 5* 03Quuxplusone 5* (+36) 10/* Instructions */ fix description of % and / for clarity
> 1566850880 252003 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65665&oldid=65664 5* 03Quuxplusone 5* (+170) 10/* Instructions */ add "greater", and asciibetize the table
< 1566851487 387108 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566851565 672393 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566851584 537884 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566851678 261926 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566851728 551912 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566851748 387401 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1566851755 809153 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1566852439 831595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65666&oldid=65662 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-10) 10
> 1566853798 883284 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65667&oldid=62225 5* 03Quuxplusone 5* (-4692) 10Remove VB.NET code. Esolang isn't a source code repository for interpreters, afaik. Put that code on GitHub or something.
< 1566853829 224212 :omegasome!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566853839 529977 :omegasome!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 NICK :hppavilion[1]
< 1566853847 695445 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, #esoteric. Haven't been here in a while.
< 1566853858 394597 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mainly connected because: It's my first day of college!
< 1566853905 191199 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I can't get to slashnet to join #xkcd and I don't know if irc.slashnet.org is down or if it's the uni's wifi or what
< 1566853918 394960 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, http://irc.slashnet.org:80/ works for me
< 1566854056 419505 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1566854078 840607 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566854331 381882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi hppavilion[1]! I was wondering if we lost you, you haven't been here for months
< 1566854355 233511 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566854362 470685 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Longer, probably
< 1566854377 609505 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You had for a while, but I think I'm gonna re-add this channel as an autojoin
< 1566854386 280854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be about a year by now
< 1566854459 179439 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I just bound hexchat to my vpn () so slashnet works
< 1566854502 17756 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what's sorta crazy that I realized early this morning?
< 1566854521 190013 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were born a few decades ago, today would could the first time in my life I'd have internet access.
< 1566854552 217151 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566854560 832998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rogue one
< 1566854561 859307 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any regular who gives the slightest Rogue One spoiler shall be hunted down in real life and have their intestines removed through their eye sockets. Members would not be exempt if they existed, which they don't.
< 1566854577 806267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[2]: ^ I wanted to ask if that's still true
< 1566854584 680738 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awwwww, you remembered!
< 1566854585 682601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we didn't dare remove it
< 1566854585 878898 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly
< 1566854600 821464 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It isn't, but the spoiler rule DOES apply to other movies
< 1566854628 782276 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *may* have contemplated hiring a hitman on that NFL player who tweeted out an Endgame spoiler.
< 1566854682 47504 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jajxgsvybiaxgeuz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566854760 723624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it apply to The Empire Strikes Back?
< 1566854878 573189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :movies only? does it apply to tv series, webcomics, novels, short stories?
< 1566855004 539640 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1566855265 517222 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566855277 224976 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566855460 301766 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566855542 508967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should rearrange the wisdoms then if Rogue One isn't particularly the target
< 1566855673 506055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; slashlearn "spoiler//Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways."; forget rogue one
< 1566855676 55172 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/rogue': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/one': No such file or directory \ Learned 'spoiler': Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.
< 1566855682 64332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; slashlearn "spoiler//Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways."; forget "rogue one"
< 1566855684 442734 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'spoiler': Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.Forget what?
< 1566855687 256224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spoilers
< 1566855688 299147 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't give movie spoilers on channel. If you do, hppavilion may hire a hitman to hunt you down in real life and torture you in refined ways.
< 1566855692 451441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rogue one
< 1566855693 414377 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rogue one? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1566855701 209792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion
< 1566855702 255747 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
< 1566855730 866396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion1
< 1566855732 575106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion[1]
< 1566855733 165452 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
< 1566855734 700073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless. Él aspira a ser más incomprensible que esta sabiduría.
< 1566855761 558687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that supposed to be a quaternion?
< 1566855798 212780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we mention that he hates movie spoilers in one of those?
< 1566855881 407419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e's"(jokes)"movie spoilers or $1"' wisdom/hppavilion1
< 1566855969 87134 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1566856022 447130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of higgledy piggledy is that?
< 1566856026 927677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg hppavilion[1]
< 1566856028 563876 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9631:2016-11-06  learn_append hppavilion[1] \xc3\x89l aspira a ser m\xc3\xa1s incomprensible que esta sabidur\xc3\xada. \ 8609:2016-06-26  learn_append hppavilion[1] No es tan cluecless. \ 6238:2015-11-23  undo 6237 \ 6237:2015-11-22  le/rn hppavilion[1]/HP pays $3.5m a year to name an arena in San Jose after him. \ 5917:2015-08-22  learn hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. \xc2\xbfPorqu\xc3\xa9
< 1566856041 589927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg hppavilion1
< 1566856043 127684 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11916:2019-08-26  `` perl -pi -e\'s"(jokes)"movie spoilers or $1"\' wisdom/hppavilion1 \ 5743:2015-06-25  revert \ 5742:2015-06-25  learn hppavilion1 is ZombieCheney \ 5607:2015-06-18  ` sed -i -e \'s/\\w\\+ \\w\\+ //\' -e \'s/leave them/be left/\' wisdom/hppavilion1 \ 5606:2015-06-18  learn hppavilion1 is higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn\'t like jokes that are / written in text; // 
< 1566856072 234829 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( lol )
< 1566856076 632678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hppavilion1
< 1566856077 707199 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like movie spoilers or jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
< 1566856083 536634 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, shachaf!
< 1566856091 288877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you serious?
< 1566856096 994518 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes!
< 1566856102 389881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What perfect rhythm.
< 1566856178 674318 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And re. ESB: While the tides of battle in the Great Spoiler War have clearly let lay that sufficiently old movies are fair game, I sometimes lay awake at night, fondly picturing a world where even the ending of Citizen Kane is protected for future generations
< 1566856309 388407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a movie can be spoiled with a single sentence it probably isn't a good movie hth
< 1566857353 505795 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1566857553 236923 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@137.229.131.34 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566857806 607864 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566858172 506764 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1566858396 610606 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566859030 641001 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2600:380:806e:f2e0:6063:fe4d:27bc:5a09 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1566859401 319878 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566859556 307531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566859753 318399 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566859777 811823 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566860129 994446 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1566861695 750518 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566862117 775047 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I can think of some really good movies that have a big exciting twist, but I'm not sure it really spoils enjoyment of the movie to know what's coming
< 1566862125 930941 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people have studied it and concluded it usually doesn't
< 1566862212 268768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my statement was probably too strong, depending on what you mean by "spoil"
< 1566863014 551981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1566864270 468668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote invisible
< 1566864271 96146 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :35)  With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 995)  "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
< 1566867300 481158 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566869057 568557 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566869083 615158 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got Cygwin. 
< 1566869093 244199 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fun things can I do?
< 1566869130 964014 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking, as I currently don't have an active project.
< 1566869152 644210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could write a compiler for my programming language.
< 1566869164 180189 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it?
< 1566869234 220946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure yet.
< 1566869246 885068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason to use Cygwin nowadays with WSL?
< 1566869294 114969 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using it, since I don't have a PC of my own. I run it on a flashdrive
< 1566869304 605391 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its so far pretty good
< 1566869330 681712 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If did have a PC, though, I'd be using WSL instead
< 1566869333 597108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1566869388 373217 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you finish your lang, tell me on my talk page
< 1566869401 579348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a wiki account.
< 1566869414 901475 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make oen then
< 1566869416 702421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language is going to be so good, if I make it.
< 1566869419 818501 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one*
< 1566869455 725743 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to see it in action when you complete it
< 1566869466 891204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could write some fancy software.
< 1566869480 703191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can make a good debugger for me.
< 1566869563 638989 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that'll happen when you make a wiki account and tell me about it
< 1566869567 544377 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good Night
< 1566869571 981076 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PART :#esoteric
< 1566870375 559612 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566871360 364362 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566871492 342199 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566872646 67293 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
> 1566875946 877366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65668 5* 03A 5* (+215) 10Created page with "[[Ojc]] (standing for O[b]j[e]c[t]) is an [[object-oriented]] language designed to be very concise. It is influenced by both Smalltalk and Simula. [[Category:Languages]] Cat..."
< 1566876550 563659 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1566876996 357422 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1566878183 140959 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65669&oldid=65668 5* 03A 5* (+2283) 10No Simula, since I can't learn it.
< 1566878270 491368 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566878468 343180 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1566880305 753368 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65670&oldid=65669 5* 03A 5* (+1049) 10Examples
< 1566880317 321637 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote
< 1566880318 26288 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :417)  Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so...
> 1566880648 46094 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65671&oldid=65670 5* 03A 5* (+1467) 10/* Doing math */
> 1566880675 470035 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65672&oldid=65671 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10/* Doing math */ Typo
> 1566881994 146933 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65673&oldid=65672 5* 03A 5* (+5602) 10/* Math in Ojc */
> 1566883731 890584 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65674&oldid=65673 5* 03A 5* (+1392) 10/* Sets */
< 1566883831 969587 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566883840 438433 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566884028 358497 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566884329 312316 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the "top-level scope" in a file really like a regular scope or do languages just trick you to make it look like one?
< 1566884355 75888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems pretty different.
< 1566884464 946438 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure it's regular in Tcl.
< 1566884468 901705 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Tcl is a weirdo.
< 1566884476 253337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tcl is indeed a weirdo.
< 1566884524 257845 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, one property of regular scopes is typically that "{ a; b; c; }" means the same as "{ a; { b; c; } }", and if b is a declaration, it's only visible inside the inner block.
< 1566884541 869365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's actually still true in C.
< 1566884589 418080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But say you have a thing that reads multiple files and lets declarations refer to each other -- then that's not true anymore.
< 1566884594 451946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitions are being exported.
< 1566884625 277464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to have things that modify a scope, as in "const { int x = 1; int y = 2; }" instead of "const int x = 1; const int y = 2;". But I want those declarations to go into the same scope as the regular declarations.
< 1566884633 194369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(const is maybe not the best example but you get the idea.)
< 1566884668 272781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible that "exported" declarations should be marked explicitly rather than just looking like regular variable declarations?
< 1566885261 912120 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to suspect that nVidia's notion of stereoscopy is limited and I should write my own.
< 1566885291 174170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't copy a stereo
> 1566885530 338589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65675&oldid=65674 5* 03A 5* (+4753) 10/* Sets */
> 1566885566 418639 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65676&oldid=65675 5* 03A 5* (-1486) 10/* Dictionaries */
> 1566885588 921920 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65677&oldid=65676 5* 03A 5* (+1488) 10/* Sets */
< 1566886805 776390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :btc is weird... why do you split inputs like this? https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/block/530048/183hmJGRuTEi2YDCWy5iozY8rZtFwVgahM
< 1566887129 597520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something special about that transaction?
< 1566887150 492984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's padded. All the inputs come from the same address.
< 1566887160 873349 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I accidentally defined a homogenous coordinate system
< 1566887182 315585 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nVidia has an equation PsInput.x += Separation*(〖PsInput〗_w-Convergence)
< 1566887206 293901 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided I wanted to be able to represent PsInput.x += some_constant, which that equation doesn't allow
< 1566887211 982322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why would you pad transactions... to slow down the overall transaction rate maybe? This was at a local BTC price peak, too. I don't know.
< 1566887221 464926 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So x += realSep * w - virtualSep * Convergence
< 1566887239 237500 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When realSep = 0, then the equation cannot be converted to the nVidia form
< 1566887258 561949 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is equation the right word here? It feels wrong. Formula?)
< 1566887294 747423 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :* when realSep = 0 and virtualSep and Convergence are non-9
< 1566887297 608994 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-0
< 1566887328 609804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, enough time wasted on this. (I started looking into this because I tried to understand this peak: https://www.blockchain.com/charts/output-volume?timespan=30days
< 1566887431 435942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... bit as far as I can see this is just many transactions siphoning off tiny amounts from a single rich address (output of transaction = balance of input). So basically how a bitcoin exchange might operate.)
< 1566887461 99687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I saw that, but I meant why you were looking at it in the first place, or whether this is common.
< 1566887464 461632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But meh I really shouldn't waste time on this.
< 1566887573 384690 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether this kind of padding is a common tactic, I don't even know what exactly it's supposed to achieve.
< 1566887602 678126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a curiosity, really. Odd enough to make me wonder, not important enough to make me care.
> 1566889082 170066 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65678&oldid=65677 5* 03A 5* (+1809) 10/* Classes */
> 1566889185 342593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65679&oldid=65144 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+10) 10/* Languages I've Inspired (feel free to add anything I've missed) */
< 1566889703 285362 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566890151 691032 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566890374 423253 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1566893122 501811 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566894070 424143 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566894212 66616 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I wonder how well Haskell's $ operator would work in an S-expression-based language.
< 1566894282 53223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead of (f (g x)) you'd write ($ f (g x))
< 1566894294 261734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an improvement.
< 1566894316 661940 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you'd write (f $ g x)
< 1566894334 766504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've lowercased that because it was very much not serious.
> 1566894469 342123 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65680&oldid=65666 5* 03B jonas 5* (+119) 10
< 1566894521 856983 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566894742 703808 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Your error handling thing reminds me of "lexical exceptions", though I don't remember if it's something I saw somewhere, or something I made up once
< 1566894766 393860 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "lexical exceptions" you're only allowed to throw X in a location that is lexically enclosed by a catch X
> 1566894816 922353 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Ojc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65681 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+262) 10Lps
< 1566894853 552427 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566894860 843718 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't make them totally static, for example if you have local functions, you could write a recursive function inside that lexical block, and throw inside it
< 1566894880 291610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is X an exception type or something lexically bound?
< 1566894919 805212 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorely tempted to tell you it is a lexically bound exception type
< 1566894946 399362 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's some kind of exception type, sure.
< 1566894946 756873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm asking what sort of identifier X is, or where it comes from.
< 1566894996 757366 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you throw, you almost always throw a newly-created value, whether it is a value of type "exception" (as it usually is), or not
< 1566895011 997571 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Throwing existing values is... not something I've seen done.
< 1566895032 825104 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hmzsunahslcugfld QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566895047 832860 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-mjgkxlcvypidxvow JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566895048 605426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you make up a new exception value, out of some local variables you have - that's common.
< 1566895054 712985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused about what binds the values.
< 1566895075 913186 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean by that.
< 1566895092 909440 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566895111 628800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can write a more specific example?
< 1566895196 111820 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try { raise KeyError(12); } catch KeyError(n) { print(n); }  <-- is ok
< 1566895212 569272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I see.
< 1566895220 97086 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try { foo(); /* which raises KeyError */ } catch KeyError(n) { print(n); }  <-- is not ok, is not lexical
< 1566895251 658204 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so you only have lexical gotos?
< 1566895292 510873 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I hate that the opposite of "catch" is "throw" but the opposite of "raise" is "lower", and I usually end up saying "raise" and "catch" even though they're not opposites
< 1566895299 587764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering whether you meant something like "try { raise foo; } catch foo { ... }" where the identifier "foo" is bound by the catch.
< 1566895409 745514 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I guess so, but as I noted, they're still dynamic w.r.t. the stack, if you have e.g. a local recursive function in that lexical block
< 1566895413 187479 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I recommend "raise" and "except" then, as in python3
< 1566895431 779975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you give a recursive function example?
< 1566895459 132030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand what you mean.
< 1566895487 52841 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try { var f = function(m) { if m < 100 then f(m+1) else raise KeyError(13); } catch ...
< 1566895488 757426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see, you mean you *define* a function inside a try.
< 1566895499 673943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I'd just figured out what you meant.
< 1566895550 466861 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what happens if you copy f and leak it out of that scope? do you get a full call/cc?
< 1566895605 563409 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I guess it raises an exception that will never be caught. I guess you could also try to prevent it from leaking out.
< 1566895628 717906 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems like a bizarre combination.
< 1566895647 509959 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think this must be something I made up, rather than something I encountered somewhere.
< 1566897868 235599 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566898181 221416 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I guess making the exception thrown by the escaped function, get caught by the lexical catch handler, would be a sensible way to handle it too (given that approximately none of this is very sensible)
< 1566898221 793163 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in that case what you have is a call/cc
> 1566898225 342608 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65682&oldid=65681 5* 03A 5* (+528) 10
> 1566898270 428562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65683&oldid=65682 5* 03A 5* (+81) 10Link to tutorial
> 1566898378 49046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ojc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65684&oldid=65678 5* 03A 5* (+195) 10/* Tutorial */
> 1566898443 928281 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5*  10moved [[02Ojc10]] to [[Salt]]: Because Ojc is not interesting
> 1566898444 104453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Ojc10]] to [[Talk:Salt]]: Because Ojc is not interesting
> 1566898489 574198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65689&oldid=65685 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10
> 1566898529 638960 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65690&oldid=65687 5* 03A 5* (-3) 10
> 1566898656 276186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65691&oldid=65689 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10/* Documenting the class */ A mess
> 1566898695 595790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65692&oldid=65691 5* 03A 5* (-33) 10Smalltalk->Salt
> 1566898780 486946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65693&oldid=65690 5* 03A 5* (+435) 10
< 1566899129 522947 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, and that feels slightly too "powerful" for what this was intended to achieve, probably, but who knows.
< 1566899161 481333 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can always have a restriction of call/cc, such as call/ec
< 1566899191 801358 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something between
< 1566899269 235363 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an explicitly bounded continuation where you tell how long you have to save the state
< 1566899291 959970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know how linear continuations work.
< 1566899519 365772 :CountArthurStron!~CountArth@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566899574 592856 :CountArthurStron!~CountArth@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1566899590 565307 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566899788 161148 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a language which is too "normal" to be an esolang, but is too weird to be a "normal" language.
< 1566899806 171292 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :apl?
< 1566899852 738761 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Point taken.
< 1566899864 388972 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if in doubt, make an entry about it on esolangs.org, but don't definitely claim that it's an esolang
< 1566899877 736903 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a few such entries already
< 1566899900 479237 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've made so many esolangs that the languages I've made that aren't particularly esoteric will probably be considered esolangs by many
< 1566899904 85546 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1566899920 486237 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well
< 1566899923 520715 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :details!
< 1566899966 490444 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566899994 202655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think C++ is an esolang?
< 1566900030 536998 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think C++ is certainly a programming language that is esoteric
< 1566900038 864816 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether it's an esoteric programming language is another matter
< 1566900061 106052 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so almost every programming language is esoteric, right? especially modern ones
< 1566900076 937163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think C++ is the way it is for nearly the same reasons esolangs are the way they are.
< 1566900110 838516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :People enjoy doing things under odd constraints that make them hard but achievable.
< 1566900113 358180 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: https://github.com/catseye/Robin/tree/develop-0.3  (I'm trying to get the next version of released)
< 1566900144 545198 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Client Quit
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> 1566900239 342176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65694&oldid=65692 5* 03A 5* (+5853) 10
> 1566900641 303521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65695&oldid=65694 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10I should not make a Smalltalk-based language yet before I learn Smalltalk.
> 1566900688 958689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65696&oldid=65693 5* 03A 5* (+90) 10
< 1566901668 332252 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566901780 558664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65697&oldid=65656 5* 03A 5* (+29) 10/* SADOL */
< 1566901877 669980 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1566902470 385675 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's too freaky to be a "normal" language, even if it's not an esolang. So I think, things like trying to add Haskell's infix $ operator to it, are fair game.
< 1566902495 79426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should probably just try hand-converting some Scheme code to use it first just to see what it looks like though.
< 1566902911 836894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password
< 1566902912 875648 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is surprising.
< 1566903503 946883 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfcifqhxkabuwkcn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566903670 256117 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( cpressey doesn't believe in type signatures )
< 1566903783 243322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I've found a few.
< 1566903909 992869 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/cpressey/030883cadaf9a12a802cd6c95affc01e
< 1566903982 667338 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *does* reduce the number of parens, just like it does in Haskell. Whether it does so nicely, or not, I don't know.
< 1566903992 594599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: now I want to get rid of the outermost parentheses as well
< 1566904016 471236 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: That's hard.
< 1566904019 87773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and `if` is a bit awkward
< 1566904020 927460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1566904071 654458 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Why don't I believe in type signatures?
< 1566904075 551402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used ghc's BlockArguments for if-then-else last weekend... https://gist.github.com/int-e/57eefc6cce29ed47ddaaca13a0774533#file-quine-hs-L319-L329
< 1566904083 915444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because your code uses them so sparingly
< 1566904103 172721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: whereas I, almost religiously, put signatures on all top-level bindings.
< 1566904114 529788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly as documentation, partly to localize type errors
< 1566904189 921528 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: If I thought of these modules as public, I would probably try harder to do that. But this is largely experimental stuff.
< 1566904197 700757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The latter was the driving factor historically. I just got tired of working on modifying a function and getting a type error in a different function as a result.)
< 1566904214 605238 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think some older lisps (of the common lisp side, not the scheme side) had this syntax extension where you can use square brackets as well as round parens, and a close square bracket closes all round paren that was open since the matching open square bracket
< 1566904241 963268 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is your dollar sign syntax the same, except you write round parenthesis instead of square brackets and a dollar sign instead of a left round parenthesis?
< 1566904260 313403 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so, then the bracket thing is more general
< 1566904288 264270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but has basically the same power
< 1566904293 127776 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just possibly more convenience
< 1566904335 298284 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: anyway indentation is the best bracket-avoiding mechanism. ;)
< 1566904387 373902 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't like the "this one close paren closes all open parens" approach because the parens are unbalanced.
< 1566904499 515314 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: re ifThenElse, I was wondering on the weekend if Haskell's `if` couldn't just be defined as a function :: Boolean -> a -> a
< 1566904519 732330 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`then` and `else` are good syntax though, justifies the sugar
< 1566904520 70568 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: then`: not found
< 1566904560 514544 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: there are advocates of that idea, but if-then-else is common enough and the alternative would have more parentheses and worse (usually type) errors.
< 1566904667 771165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the main downside, I guess, is that the syntax really only works for booleans; it can't be overloaded for a DSL.
< 1566904756 921767 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, in a *lazy* language you can define it as a function, only in haskell you have to call it something different from "if" because that name is taken by a keyword
< 1566904804 1065 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm used to strict languages, where it can't be defined as a plain function
< 1566904806 277578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A secondary issue is that I never really know how to layout if-then-else, especially inside do blocks. I do something, but it never feels right and I'm not sure how consistent I am... might be worth checking.)
< 1566904816 155098 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: my point was they didn't need to define that keyword, they could've made `if` a function defined in the prelude
< 1566904827 386324 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure
< 1566904853 819376 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I have the same issue, I usually avoid it and use `case` instead
< 1566904857 72506 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the function is there in the libraries under some other name
< 1566904884 51982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Data.Bool.bool -- almost
< 1566904885 650257 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> a -> Bool -> a
< 1566904917 891979 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566904918 685353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Bool.HT if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566904918 820265 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Bool.HT ifThenElse :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566904918 820307 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :NumericPrelude ifThenElse :: () => Bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566904981 954482 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"utility-ht-0.0.1", okay
< 1566905008 248309 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to ask isn't if' the canonical name for that.
< 1566905030 822640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle if'
< 1566905031 326588 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Bool.HT if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566905031 326649 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Conditional if' :: ToBool bool => bool -> a -> a -> a
< 1566905031 489462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ProtoLens.Compiler.Combinators if' :: Exp -> Exp -> Exp -> Exp
< 1566905034 566189 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a -> a -> Bool -> a
< 1566905035 563185 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Bool bool :: a -> a -> Bool -> a
< 1566905035 703119 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Bool.Compat bool :: () => a -> a -> Bool -> a
< 1566905036 280515 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Error.Util bool :: a -> a -> Bool -> a
< 1566905044 698698 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@more
< 1566905069 535289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl if b then t else f
< 1566905069 687159 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if' b t f
< 1566905070 626818 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently HT stands for... Henning Thielemann?
< 1566905089 334363 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just define bools like (\xy.x) and (\xy.y), that eliminates the need of an if altogether
< 1566905089 370489 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds conceivable
< 1566905095 975859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: @pl is the only reason I can think of that this name would be "canonical".
< 1566905104 49205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes.
< 1566905105 824929 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: that's hard in the original Haskell type system
< 1566905118 447773 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, my definition of "canonical" here is "I've heard of it with that name".
< 1566905143 814819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's not the canonical definition of "canonical". ;-)
< 1566905245 456690 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though if you've heard it somewhere that may support the idea that it is indeed canonical. But it might also be an idiosyncracy of your source, and not enshrined in any canon that everybody subscribes to.)
< 1566905303 283920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Everybody" is, of course, referring to a certain subculture or clique. :P)
< 1566905491 683088 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be that the reordered "bool :: a -> a -> Bool -> a" is more useful as a function anyway.
< 1566905540 330352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t maybe
< 1566905541 479858 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
< 1566905587 766777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl if x then y else z
< 1566905588 111255 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if' x y z
< 1566905597 347621 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl bool x y z
< 1566905597 715463 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool x y z
< 1566905634 528769 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Maybe a -> a -> a
< 1566905635 635393 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test.Framework.Providers.API orElse :: Maybe a -> a -> a
< 1566905635 635447 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Error.Util (?:) :: Maybe a -> a -> a
< 1566905635 635458 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Universum.Monad.Maybe (?:) :: Maybe a -> a -> a
< 1566905675 752176 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a -> Maybe a -> a
< 1566905676 688854 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Maybe fromMaybe :: a -> Maybe a -> a
< 1566905676 725069 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :System.Directory.Internal.Prelude fromMaybe :: () => a -> Maybe a -> a
< 1566905676 725110 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distribution.Compat.Prelude.Internal fromMaybe :: () => a -> Maybe a -> a
< 1566905681 246649 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should learn more Haskell.
< 1566905711 885513 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unpl if'
< 1566905712 205386 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if'
< 1566905722 490520 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unpl if' x y z
< 1566905722 731591 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if' x y z
< 1566905736 848811 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unpl if' True y z
< 1566905737 114812 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if' True y z
< 1566905740 108124 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1566905747 683287 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this really know about if' ?
< 1566905809 496280 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@run if' True x y
< 1566905811 421632 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1566905811 458439 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Variable not in scope: if' :: Bool -> Expr -> Expr -> t
< 1566905811 458481 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Perhaps you meant ‘f'’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect)
< 1566905821 152812 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@run bool x y True
< 1566905823 258922 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : y
< 1566905840 427793 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \y z x -> bool x y z
< 1566905840 722364 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip . flip bool
< 1566905908 961971 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1566905944 700753 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \c a b -> bool a b c
< 1566905944 963776 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (flip . bool)
< 1566906013 923673 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know enough Haskell syntax to write a `case` on one line
< 1566906022 468406 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \a b c -> if c then a else b
< 1566906022 776926 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip . flip if'
< 1566906025 809965 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1566906051 84535 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it just knows enough about if' to translate if/then/else into it.
< 1566906054 715219 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's like case expr of { pat0 => expr0; pat1 => expr1; }
< 1566906081 249140 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think
< 1566906086 780813 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, I don't remember haskell syntax
< 1566906108 458195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> case otherwise of False -> "oops"; True -> "okay!"
< 1566906110 371269 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : "okay!"
< 1566906114 814274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> case otherwise of { False -> "oops"; True -> "okay!" }
< 1566906116 951445 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : "okay!"
< 1566906136 618438 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah with a single arrow
< 1566906141 730806 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1566906170 962421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> in case is the mark of an ML programmer?
< 1566906261 999572 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I think it is just that @pl does not parse the syntax.
< 1566906286 794238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how would you make \b f t -> if b then f else t  point-free?
< 1566906306 273899 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl would just not work with the syntax.
< 1566906324 722916 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \b f t -> if b then f else t
< 1566906325 37341 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if'
< 1566906341 569405 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \b f t -> if b then f else t -- @pl parses all of Haskell syntax, didn't you know?
< 1566906341 934088 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if'
< 1566906356 367864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It really doesn't.
< 1566906359 388687 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \b f t -> if b then f else t {- such as block comments -}
< 1566906359 683016 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :if'
< 1566906368 909797 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't parse case.
< 1566906381 905891 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that thing with the minus sign that I saw the last time
< 1566906382 768065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \xs -> case xs of [] -> not; x:xs -> supported
< 1566906382 889794 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 24):
< 1566906383 9815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected '>'
< 1566906383 9862 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting operator
< 1566906423 818588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl f x | odd x = 1 | otherwise = 2
< 1566906423 948848 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 14):
< 1566906423 948906 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected " "
< 1566906433 586041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> @pl f x = if odd x then 1 else 2
< 1566906435 490937 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:1: error: parse error on input ‘@’
< 1566906440 832974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl f x = if odd x then 1 else 2
< 1566906440 954433 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = flip (flip if' 1 . odd) 2
< 1566906490 426895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl is an awful hack, really.
< 1566906552 467203 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm not qualified to say how one could write `if'` point-free.
< 1566906725 117997 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My inclination would be to write it in CPS. Which doesn't help?
< 1566906786 494578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a destructor for Bool. Something like if' or bool. ;-)
< 1566906829 103533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe a way of sectioning anything.
< 1566906843 667135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if then else) b t f = (if b then t else f) ;-)
< 1566906855 126401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (,2,) 1 3
< 1566906857 549708 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : (1,2,3)
< 1566906966 363254 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You need something else to complete it, something like if' itself" sounds a bit like my thought process was, yeah
< 1566907051 99372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type (,2,)
< 1566907053 71972 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Num t1 => t2 -> t3 -> (t2, t1, t3)
< 1566907101 163312 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes Haskell reminds me of PL/I
< 1566907123 754169 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If some sequence of characters has a reasonable interpretation, the language will make that interpretation"
< 1566907290 471271 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds also a lot like irp
< 1566907418 367141 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (2,) 1 3
< 1566907420 908166 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1566907420 908227 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer -> t’
< 1566907421 16536 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :                   with actual type ‘(Integer, Integer)’
< 1566907441 102330 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1,2,3) : (,Int,) Int Int
< 1566907443 234340 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1566907443 354230 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Data constructor not in scope: Int
< 1566907443 354288 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Perhaps you meant one of these:
< 1566907446 39258 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1,2,3) :: (,Int,) Int Int
< 1566907448 715530 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:14: error: parse error on input ‘Int’
< 1566907454 856612 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, doesn't work as a type?
< 1566907755 118239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a lot of things don't work as types
< 1566907765 293472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if-then-else, case expressions...
< 1566907768 700738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdas
< 1566907788 77780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, since sections are lambdas, sections cannot really be expected to work on the type level
< 1566909581 17174 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566909651 778189 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric : You need a destructor for Bool. Something like if' or bool. ;-) => yeah, why isn’t it standard yet?
< 1566909736 719369 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah or is it?
< 1566909747 968939 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was confused, don’t mind that
< 1566909783 157435 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I revoke my question
< 1566910060 59875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( retract, withdraw )
< 1566910151 471190 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? brevity
< 1566910152 557870 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :syn. "shortness"
< 1566910437 966447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... "nub" is the very essence of brevity.
< 1566910673 351224 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566910811 488743 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah I wrote that and then it occurred I could write “I take back”
< 1566910878 358494 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566912747 491617 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
> 1566914145 924754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65698&oldid=65680 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+229) 10
< 1566916358 71956 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For whatever it's worth, version 0.3 of Robin has been released. Already I know things I want to change for 0.4. But at least it is a little better than 0.2 was. https://github.com/catseye/Robin
< 1566916591 558746 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is this the questionable esoteric language that you've mentioned?
< 1566916782 323273 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes
< 1566916854 38019 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :version 0.2 was in 2014, btw, so this is, like, a long-overdue update of something I haven't touched in 5 years, basically
> 1566919227 700050 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SIMPLE (preprocessor)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65699 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1395) 10Created page with "'''SIMPLE''' is a text preprocessor created by [[David Madore]] in 1998, inspired by m4.    SIMPLE has special syntax to expand a function parameter with each of its tokens qu..."
> 1566919267 509333 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SIMPLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65700&oldid=8359 5* 03B jonas 5* (+71) 10
> 1566919319 298371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65701&oldid=65642 5* 03B jonas 5* (+28) 10[[SIMPLE (preprocessor)]]
> 1566919432 177116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07David Madore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65702&oldid=59714 5* 03B jonas 5* (+28) 10
< 1566919730 108976 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1566919933 387981 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1566921509 526467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1566922503 53703 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rats live on no evil star, huh
< 1566922549 292347 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: won't lovers revolt now?
< 1566922625 478108 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: don’t know how well-known that palyndrome is, I took it from cpressey’s generated text :D
< 1566922684 682353 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, seemingly it is more or less known
< 1566922735 238218 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in poems and stories and music albums
> 1566922965 732617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Functional()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65703&oldid=57492 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-16) 10Update interpreter link
> 1566923147 346137 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitwise Trance14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65704&oldid=59794 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-3) 10Update interpreter link
< 1566923155 232031 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I stole it from the song "Bob" by Al Yankovic
> 1566923201 983085 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitBounce14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65705&oldid=60020 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2) 10Update interpreter link
< 1566923324 812412 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that’s weird 
< 1566923355 944344 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes
> 1566923383 408754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Functasy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65706&oldid=60557 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+93) 10Update interpreter link
> 1566923430 268371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Examinable Invocation Vector14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65707&oldid=62375 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-188) 10Update interpreter link
> 1566923461 278017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Realm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65708&oldid=64710 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-164) 10Update interpreter link
< 1566924078 397846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566924087 33862 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just saw something funny
< 1566924102 125590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :water was trapped between the two panes of the double-layered window of the bus
< 1566924109 126101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a few centimeters high
< 1566924116 302116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it made nice waves as the bus accelerated
< 1566924150 868361 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566925865 743369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SIMPLE (preprocessor)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65709&oldid=65699 5* 03B jonas 5* (+54) 10
< 1566927904 237569 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566928877 460399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 0.45 * 50 75
< 1566928878 371465 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 22.5 33.75
< 1566929731 17488 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is [
< 1566929731 525426 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoah
< 1566929739 82947 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just thought, wtf, ##Esoteric is invite only
< 1566929745 298231 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then i realized it has one Hash less
< 1566929746 611694 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :😸
< 1566929977 788347 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are Officially Esoteric™
> 1566930063 444434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Antirapistrapistclub 5*  10New user account
< 1566930142 691720 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nod*
> 1566930175 502913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65710&oldid=65630 5* 03Antirapistrapistclub 5* (+419) 10
> 1566930191 589211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Antirapistrapistclub14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65711 5* 03Antirapistrapistclub 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
> 1566930200 165483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Antirapistrapistclub14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65712 5* 03Antirapistrapistclub 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
< 1566930297 165626 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ominous nick...
< 1566930327 326017 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :blank pages don't sound good
< 1566930419 454580 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could just mean that they don't like their user name/talk page links to be red.
< 1566930746 926959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: J
< 1566930761 143744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: [ is not the name of the language, it's the shortcut invocation for the bot
< 1566930771 128905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, jeval: 0.45 * 50 75
< 1566930771 798505 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 22.5 33.75
< 1566930833 816920 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see
< 1566930910 941970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and > is also not the name of a language, but it's a shortcut to evaluate things in a different language
< 1566930940 638493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fmap (* 0.45) [50, 75]
< 1566930942 704366 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [22.5,33.75]
> 1566931063 957680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65713&oldid=65698 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+69) 10/* Cat */
> 1566931081 182259 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65714&oldid=65713 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-1) 10/* Infinite Loop */
< 1566931334 429956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the definitions in https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/master/stdlib/cmp.robin#L147 don't seem right
< 1566931361 349089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or the documentation for what those functions are supposed to do 
< 1566933329 71837 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1566934289 314348 :laerling!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerling PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1566934353 303925 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1566934615 430346 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zektay77 5*  10New user account
< 1566934624 918470 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cpressey (hello) in your Robin description on Github, you said PicoLisp has macros; one of my friends says it isn’t true. I personally don’t know anything about it and then I can tell him something if you wish
< 1566934625 355632 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
> 1566934689 14709 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65715&oldid=65710 5* 03Zektay77 5* (+87) 10/* Introductions */
> 1566934717 246376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65716&oldid=65715 5* 03Zektay77 5* (+85) 10/* Introductions */
< 1566935565 212748 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566935697 437259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I use 0x8B or 0x89 for encoding reg-reg mov on x86?
< 1566935876 235552 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566935903 335687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more generally if there are redundant encodings like that with "foo r/m,r" and "foo r,r/m" is there a reason to prefer one?
> 1566936542 548168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65717&oldid=65716 5* 03Mid 5* (+139) 10/* Introductions */
< 1566936945 540564 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.170.176 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566937297 451388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: dunno, check (recent versions of) the intel optimization manual, the amd optimization manual, the optimization manual for your specific processor generation, and Agner's manuals
< 1566937303 593265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it doesn't matter
< 1566938037 462600 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566938200 923645 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1566938209 38958 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1566939445 464273 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfcifqhxkabuwkcn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1566941017 362205 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1566941049 348276 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566941514 607692 :flux98!4e5eb312@b2b-78-94-179-18.unitymedia.biz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566941516 574355 :flux98!4e5eb312@b2b-78-94-179-18.unitymedia.biz PART :#esoteric
< 1566941653 65196 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.170.176 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1566942187 998042 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ctamtxznjysbueqs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566942703 564936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-135.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1566942781 227508 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1566942806 589566 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566942919 501981 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1566947443 213498 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1566948812 561169 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
> 1566951244 262748 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Toel F 5*  10New user account
< 1566952603 338581 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566952856 515654 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566952963 976346 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:91a9:4168:fbd5:ff22 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566953852 230224 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1566956193 963398 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5*  10New user account
> 1566956467 228686 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65718&oldid=65717 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+303) 10Followed instructions.
> 1566956534 122275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SoundOfScripting14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65719 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+1067) 10Created page with "This is the page of the terrible language designer [https://www.esolangs.org/wiki/User:SoundOfScripting User:SoundOfScripting]. I like to make esolangs, even if they are not p..."
> 1566956607 562190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65720&oldid=65380 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (-992) 10Alternatively, delete this page.
> 1566956658 665908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arrows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65721&oldid=57337 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956682 631943 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TheSingularity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65722&oldid=55647 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956800 218363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WCDA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65723&oldid=53754 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+57) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956856 866437 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Focus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65724&oldid=55649 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (-60) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956895 417341 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TwoFiftyFive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65725&oldid=53836 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Sorry for the eidit spam! Just a handful more pages. ======= Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956924 316116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tables14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65726&oldid=53826 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566956961 179492 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Neg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65727&oldid=55788 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10maybe I'm just dumb and I could've changed my username
> 1566956983 248654 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GetWhen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65728&oldid=55798 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566957083 195910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65729&oldid=56602 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+45) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566957157 416576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07D.U.C.K.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65730&oldid=60740 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
> 1566957179 720474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Braincells14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65731&oldid=65379 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+5) 10Last one! Changed to User:SoundOfScripting
< 1566957651 288126 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ctamtxznjysbueqs QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1566970159 76347 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566972488 655349 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitBounce14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65732&oldid=65705 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10
< 1566975166 884829 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1566975187 987979 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566975557 985472 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566976365 694546 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:b9de:f368:e4c1:efdf JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566976394 823965 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566976679 975391 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566977457 550177 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566977514 479433 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566977713 983024 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e050:7321:c75c:3766 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566979902 459864 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1566980108 65669 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566980121 815942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65733&oldid=33886 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10Adding a year category.
> 1566980698 816379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65734&oldid=65733 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+140) 10Adding examples.
< 1566981348 468202 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1566981504 910672 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566982472 418916 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566982503 967220 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566982522 619700 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. Idea for the day: design an esoteric parsing combinator library.
< 1566982538 644877 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe based on Fokker's X combinator. Except for parsing, of course.
< 1566982618 113579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning.
< 1566982635 474323 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I should know a whole bunch more about parsing.
< 1566983272 310904 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursive descent parsing is easy and fun, but only works on some grammars. If you write a RDP manually you can manually add code to do non-context-free things like track a symbol table or generate code.
< 1566983329 343458 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are algorithms that will return all possible parses for general context-free grammars. They're not as efficient, most programming languages don't need them, but they're also fun in their way.
< 1566983351 818816 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what a PEG is, I should probably find out some day.
< 1566983536 250295 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Table-based parsing of LR-type grammars I find not-fun and have basically ignored all my life.
< 1566986621 584669 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The LR-grammar parsing stuff is very esoteric, though, and should not be ignored. Maybe someone could make an esolang where it works like shift/reduce parsing, except it's not just a parser, it's a Turing-complete language.
< 1566987052 203709 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566987188 876356 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that different from a push-down automaton, really, I guess
< 1566987201 384988 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me of the mostly unrelated topic of alternating finite automata.
< 1566987225 684829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to figure out whether they're a realistic implementation strategy for regular expressions.
< 1566987292 228587 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds realistic in the sense that you could implement it. Whether there would be any advantages to doing so or not, I don't know.
< 1566987382 548744 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's conventional to convert NFAs to DFAs, but you can also execute NFAs directly. Which is more efficient in the modern era probably depends on cache configuration and all that gory stuff.
< 1566987842 510918 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566988971 515195 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/conventional/traditional/
< 1566989429 491546 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The advantage would be support for intersection and complement.
< 1566989777 151607 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1566990163 432362 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you mean, improved support... I think most regex implementations aren't oriented at optimizing the compilation-to-FA step.
< 1566990183 501534 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to compile the RE once, and typically use it more than once
< 1566990201 933219 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you should probably sleep
< 1566990480 554513 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/kragen/peg-bootstrap/blob/master/peg.md
< 1566990485 284665 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my favorite page to learn about PEG
< 1566992347 623772 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwmtselggdgikxoj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566993957 663394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wikipedia article is also not bad (as they go).  My understanding is, someone looked at how CFGs actually get implemented (as RDPs) and turned that back into a grammar formalism.
< 1566993981 957575 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expedient yes; mathematically satisfying, not really
< 1566994301 965011 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1566994534 12640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that kind of RDP. (Google finds something entirely different.)
< 1566995007 234039 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1566995043 861691 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thecatlover1996 5*  10New user account
< 1566995101 844818 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remote Drocedure Pall
> 1566995302 734624 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65735&oldid=65718 5* 03Thecatlover1996 5* (+242) 10/* Introductions */
> 1566995307 611383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65736&oldid=65605 5* 03Thecatlover1996 5* (+50) 10/* Language overview */ Tape has length 30,000
< 1566997134 431833 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1566997150 183040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65737&oldid=65736 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+168) 10/* Language overview */ clarify the nature of the tape
> 1566997250 314352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65738&oldid=65737 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+106) 10/* Computational class */ clarify that BF requires an unbounded tape or unbounded values to be TC
> 1566997390 21026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Trickbrain26 5*  10New user account
> 1566997952 515832 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07C-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65739&oldid=42106 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (-4) 10unpipe link to Wikipedia
> 1566998372 666077 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65740&oldid=65735 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+140) 10/* Introductions */
< 1566999530 967392 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1566999702 245616 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hpy
< 1567000164 817558 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567000164 897665 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c80-216-244-252.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host
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> 1567000332 728745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65741&oldid=65714 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+116) 10
> 1567000421 342047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65742&oldid=65741 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-66) 10/* A Brief Tutorial */
> 1567000444 338198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65743&oldid=65742 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-15) 10/* Introduction */
> 1567000468 375420 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65744&oldid=65743 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+0) 10/* A Brief Tutorial */
> 1567000654 479891 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65745&oldid=65744 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-136) 10
> 1567000677 565816 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65746&oldid=65745 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+9) 10/* Introduction */
> 1567000833 81576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65747&oldid=65746 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-99) 10
> 1567000895 66753 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65748&oldid=65747 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+0) 10/* A Brief Tutorial */
< 1567001609 134266 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps Stephen Wolfram's ideas presented in "A New Kind of Science" can provide useful insight for your endeavour
> 1567002162 636555 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65749&oldid=60360 5* 03Orby 5* (+12) 10
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> 1567006478 19199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65750&oldid=65748 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-2900) 10
> 1567006497 465977 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PATH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65751&oldid=65653 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-54) 10/* Variations */
> 1567006511 264450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SNUSP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65752&oldid=65651 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-39) 10/* See also */
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< 1567006569 777250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you seen recursive ascent parsers? it's basically the open-coded version of LR, but much easier to understand than the table-driven version
< 1567006621 665620 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567006679 681686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is that whenever you have a grammar ambiguity that can't immediately be resolved with your lookahead symbols but can be resolved later, you call a function that can parse either of the two things you want to be able to parse, and returns which of the two it parsed
< 1567006710 291465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(occasionally you'll need multiple functions that disambiguate in different ways depending on what comes next, but that's rare)
< 1567007025 661020 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't
< 1567007287 756740 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also fall back to something like CYK for the non-LL parts (overkill, of course)
< 1567007293 25826 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately must be off.
< 1567007297 178726 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
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< 1567007415 246722 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use s-expressinos
< 1567007571 11759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what? the language you're parsing? that doesn't work too well if you don't control the format
< 1567007586 608630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when you do, s-expressions tend to have some amount of variety in what constants they support
< 1567007623 817149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been working with SMT2 recently, whose syntax is a proper subset of Common Lisp's (although the semantics are quite different), and it can be hard to find off-the-shelf parsers for it even though it's just s-expressions
< 1567007637 697166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to things like #x1234 as a hexadecimal number
< 1567007651 463220 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a frustrating problem
< 1567007675 558545 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like lisp and s-expressions has more potential but kind of flopped because of issues like the one you state
< 1567007704 313802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is basically designed to be manipulated by lisp code, it isn't really designed to be manipulated by code in arbitrary other languages
< 1567007894 305260 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would design READ to be based on a list of regexes
< 1567007902 332072 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the tokens
< 1567008136 433561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's also the problem that SMT2 is very strongly typed, so, e.g., #x00 and #x0000 are constants of different type, the former is 8 bits wide, the latter 16 bits wide; this is something a generic parser is unlikely to tell you about)
< 1567008186 434199 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes you would definitely need a custom reader for that
< 1567008822 95186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general I think the idea of a generic parser that handles a wide range of languages wouldn't really work, languages' semantics often ends up being mirrored in the syntax
< 1567008954 305622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to imagine what a sexpy version of Incident would look like
< 1567008956 941117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it works
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> 1567013242 631550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65753&oldid=65697 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+110) 10/* Macmac */  new lang and removing newline as a shortcut.
< 1567013594 952001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567013747 632183 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65754&oldid=65753 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-404) 10
< 1567013932 274164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all
< 1567013981 399369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
> 1567015290 234276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65755&oldid=60717 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10Moving category to the bottom
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< 1567015518 174612 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello b_jonas 
< 1567015520 618489 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's new?
> 1567015632 196756 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65756&oldid=60788 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+23) 10Rerorerorerorero
> 1567015899 442536 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RISBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65757&oldid=56849 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10I Love You Kitchen Gun :D
< 1567017134 900531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :chkdsk eats memory like crazy :o
< 1567017145 617867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to
< 1567017165 167089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, depending on what parameters you start it with, obviously
< 1567017173 665958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has to hold the entire filesystem metadata in memory?
< 1567017189 594191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has to check for, like, blocks that are marked as occupied but to which nothing points, or inconsistent forwards-backwards pointers or cycles
< 1567017193 854552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could be anywhere in the file system
< 1567017195 243453 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b_jonas: /F /R /X /I /C)
< 1567017204 858281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: oh, this is on Windows?
< 1567017209 778662 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567017219 459570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense, it's not called chkdsk on unixen
< 1567017222 359787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called fsck
< 1567017327 947535 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I bet it could understand something like -f -r -x but I just copied the forms given in the help message
< 1567017365 616174 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s quite scary when low on memory
< 1567017393 107932 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apps crash, the screen turned black for some time for an unknown reason
< 1567017424 489801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't run apps
< 1567017433 458656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use a smartphone
< 1567017440 150890 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only run programs, and put my files into directories
< 1567017471 597412 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D I mean, various software for entertaining purposes like skype or streamWriter
< 1567017522 198366 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don’t ask me why skype is here. I don’t know either)
< 1567017543 183715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I do use skype
< 1567017551 839358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only the windows version, not the mobile phone version
< 1567017562 750157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it because it lets me call some co-workers and relatives
< 1567017622 681844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the first one here, though I had to install the second to be able to chat with people for chatting who with the first skype remains
< 1567017641 881854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand that
< 1567017647 817320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?
< 1567017654 464976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :install the mobile version to do what?
< 1567017691 666267 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically to do what I do with the first one
< 1567017705 545681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I wanted to test the grammar a bit
< 1567017801 836599 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had tested several different messengers out there these times and hadn’t migrate properly to any of them yet, so it’s skype for a while
< 1567017831 248829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people I know use like four different ones
< 1567017840 348254 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it visibly degraded as a group chat software
< 1567017946 983139 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it upgraded in several regards, but many bugs were introduced, and sufficiently much of functionality, removed
< 1567018007 333618 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. you can no longer just invite another person by skype username. you have to do a search, which searches in all fields, and then choose the person with the given skype username, and you can't even easily tell the skype username, only the displayed name, you have to get some hidden properties box to find it out.
< 1567018095 611568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably DOS a user by registering thirty users with the same displayed name and avatar picture (and changing those to follow that person), because nobody would be able to invite them then
< 1567018108 682252 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also I want to complain about widespread lack of support of composite fonts. It’s a pretty simple concept in light of modern font rendering libraries, and still does it appear so rarely in the software with multilingual potential like chat things not based on web browsers
< 1567018153 452839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.224.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh
< 1567018176 104832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything I say about skype might be imprecise of course, because it may have changed ten updates ago
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> 1567025405 892152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65758&oldid=65738 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+5) 10
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> 1567025921 426189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65759&oldid=65667 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+80) 10
< 1567026028 691292 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:f9b3:bf2f:71a7:665f QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1567027501 654878 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read a neat problem just now: given a small segment of a conic, how do you distinguish is it a circle, an ellipse, a parabola or a hyperbola?
< 1567027507 494578 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv
< 1567027602 534493 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone not knowing it prior, would be interested to solve it for themselves or openly. I have already spoilered myself into a part of the solution so I don’t count
< 1567027868 783389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: should I tell the solution, or would you just like to figure it out yourself?
< 1567028115 966313 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567028141 570173 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you wish; I see at least two avenues: using foci and something related or drawing a cartesian coordinate system, taking coordinates of several points and then calculating some invariants. I don’t remember particularities of either except one thing about optics
< 1567028201 670176 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully we won’t spoil it for anybody interested
< 1567028217 415856 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ^
< 1567028225 610741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what I'd do is to just the sort of brute force way, which is to compute the parameters of the quadratic form of the conic from five points on the arc. 
< 1567028248 682313 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the second way then
< 1567028257 34525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice easy but not very well known way to do that efficiently that is described in the yellow geometry book that I bought only this year, which I can tell if you want.
< 1567028282 712411 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :something determinant-y?
< 1567028303 314517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would probably be possible to do something more geometric, that is, going most of the way with a straightedge construction to find points on the involution that the conic implies on the ideal line, 
< 1567028335 117751 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think that helps, because that's the sort of theoretical construction that you either couldn't do in real life, or only engineers could do in real life and I'm not an engineer
< 1567028355 197482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: something matrix-y, yes
< 1567028426 811901 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am aligned more to the second, algebraic/computational way here, too. I’m profound in forgetting essential theorems of synthetic geometry needed for the first path
< 1567028441 981984 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567028447 986643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one that you can't forget once you learn about it, it's a beautiful method
< 1567028458 164212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity I hadn't learned it earlier
< 1567028487 551692 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: like, some 5th-order matrix? or less, 3rd order, something from projective linear algebra?
< 1567028512 593234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you have to solve a rank 5 linear equation
< 1567028588 622924 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, with a row for every point?
< 1567028614 401345 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the 6x5 matrix where each row is [x0**2, x1**2, x2**2, 2*x0*x1, 2*x0*x2, 2*x1*x2] where [x0, x1, x2] is a coordinate for a point, one row per point
< 1567028670 309956 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, homogeneous coordinates, makes sense
< 1567028706 765958 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is the right part and what are unknowns here?
< 1567028786 60567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 6x5, so you solve for a nonzero vector orthogonal to each row
< 1567028813 468189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that vector is [a00, a11, a22, a01, a02, a12], then its components give the quadratic form
< 1567028871 768568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works because [a00, a11, a22, a01, a02, a12]^T*[x0**2, x1**2, x2**2, 2*x0*x1, 2*x0*x2, 2*x1*x2] is exactly the equation of the conic
< 1567028884 352768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric := 0 obviously
< 1567028941 817336 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm neat
< 1567028970 755226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so once you have that, just check the sign of the determinant of [a00,a10;a01,a11] to tell if it's a hyperbola
< 1567029008 514499 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one even lets you make this more numerically stable if you take more than five points
< 1567029035 423147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! this part is great
< 1567029041 542284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if you have a lot of sample points but each one has some error
< 1567029057 394889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperbole is totally on topic for this channel.
< 1567029139 942720 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, I guess, we can take four points and deduce something like “the most  quadratic form” using least squares to solve the underdetermined system
< 1567029174 422450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to note that it gets much harder to find the conic if you have three points and two tangents. Apart from degenerate cases, there are always exactly four real solutions or no real solutions. It was REALLY not obvious to me why there can't be exactly two solutions.
< 1567029175 322591 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or three points, but that would be more boring probably)
< 1567029229 640147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: how about parables?
< 1567029252 410618 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I presume ellipsis is…
< 1567029276 994324 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hopefully we wouldn’t talk in circles)
< 1567029291 591616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Four points and one tangent is easier. Apart from degenerate cases, there are zero or two possible conics; there's an easy way to test which one of those is the case; and a not too hard way to solve the conic, though harder than for five points. 
< 1567029338 557011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The yellow book actually describes the case of computing a conic from four points and one tangent, but it doesn't even mention the more tricky case of three points and two tangents. 
< 1567029348 568077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only know about that one from the wob.
< 1567029365 593045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want me to spoil some of that later, you can ask me.
< 1567029365 682280 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from what?)
< 1567029375 921537 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay!
< 1567029377 403069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: parables seem to be rare. Ellipses on the other hand...
< 1567029398 134792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote parable
< 1567029399 130020 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1060)  ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
< 1567029409 962021 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: though currently I’m not interesting in going on a tangent
< 1567029414 667629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp parable
< 1567029416 401354 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1567029419 142035 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :roflwut
< 1567029425 772272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The yellow book is Richter Gerbert: "Perspectives on Projective Geometry", Springer (2019). It was one of the best purchases I've done this year.
< 1567029445 400847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is that a pun
< 1567029462 74735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is what a pun?
< 1567029477 506227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perspective in connection with projective geometry
< 1567029485 164420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the book title is a pun
< 1567029569 171267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other three geometry reference books on my shelf next to this one tell very little of this stuff, though they do tell some other useful info.
< 1567029583 145707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's a certain pun potential in "purchase", but it's not realized in your statement.
< 1567029605 790331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Hajós does tell some of the basics, like about the equation of comics in general and classifying them.
< 1567029640 17775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well yes, I rarely make English puns
< 1567029764 739018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, has SGDQ 2019 started yet?
< 1567029764 909552 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: unless it uses recursion or something. " i'll let you know
< 1567029775 682183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thanks, that'll be great
< 1567029786 822783 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the games may have recursion
< 1567029851 147852 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567029854 228031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, good night to all
< 1567029856 352208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-19.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567029872 366741 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: maybe you also do know when my chkdsk will finish, too?
< 1567029872 657783 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the package name, obviously. ( wondering why i thought it was c, i don't see
< 1567029906 94445 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm they too make puns, about seeing C, but none about chkdsk
< 1567029964 416688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm chkdsk
< 1567029994 612652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(chkdsk should just fsck off)
< 1567030004 350970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's not good, but it's a pun)
< 1567030045 682048 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567030651 940471 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567030691 9334 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: lol
< 1567030783 742841 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I was going to suggest a thing and then forgot it
< 1567030805 417469 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperbolic good, parabolic good and elliptic good!
< 1567030820 772522 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or evil
< 1567030866 583727 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the other way: lawful ellipse, chaotic ellipse and what is the other… neutral ellipse
< 1567031082 48893 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm speaking of what, I’ve seen a 3×3 table of planar geometries in a geometric book. One axis was how angles behave (elliptic, parabolic, hyperbolic) and the other was the more known one, whether the quadratic form is ++ euclidean, +0 “galilean” (how is it called?) or +− pseudoeuclidean
< 1567031106 16296 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the only ones with some properties, I don’t remember which ones
< 1567031137 703434 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, they are all constant-curvature
< 1567031170 245241 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I mixed something up
< 1567031206 671402 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the angles behave is precisely what is the signature of the quadratic form, it was some other property
< 1567031342 342934 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, euclidean-0 should be the usual euclidean plane, euclidean-+ should be the elliptic plane and euclidean-− should be the hyperbolic plane
< 1567031401 467959 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it should be the sign of the constant curvature, though I don’t remember if it was defined in this way, and certainly the curvature wasn’t defined there for a general case
< 1567031415 574014 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I’m done
> 1567031573 537363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SoundOfScripting14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65760&oldid=65719 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (-21) 10Okay now I can be dormant again.
< 1567031867 685985 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567032494 475262 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567034758 404975 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567036485 796417 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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< 1567037003 972623 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1567038017 325560 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjgwncdxrcswopxn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1567038492 100797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zahlen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65761 5* 03A 5* (+276) 10Created page with "==Questions== What is the difference between a set and a list in Zahlen, and how to push logical/set/list values onto the stack? --~~~~"
< 1567038731 979068 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsipkuhzfxlqniop JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567039337 529431 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65762&oldid=65754 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10/* Log */  Nani!? I added space???
> 1567039556 708454 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unicat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65763&oldid=44887 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10
> 1567039731 137016 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blackspace14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65764&oldid=65618 5* 03A 5* (+290) 10
> 1567039777 348083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65765&oldid=65761 5* 03A 5* (-56) 10
< 1567040212 180378 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.17.18.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o
< 1567040897 986939 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1567042232 515496 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567042245 565629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Trickbrain2614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65766 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+16) 10Created page with "I love Esolangs:"
> 1567042375 717024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Trickbrain2614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65767&oldid=65766 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+55) 10
< 1567042525 506699 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1567043628 343531 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1567046417 384940 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsipkuhzfxlqniop QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1567048565 740630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65768&oldid=60322 5* 03A 5* (+1096) 10/* Miscellaneous operators */
> 1567048600 388792 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65769&oldid=65768 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10/* Examples */
< 1567048715 288505 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567048723 981906 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7c7e:6916:e395:5fa4 JOIN :#esoteric
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> 1567049710 670541 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65770&oldid=65769 5* 03A 5* (+332) 10/* Digital root calculator */ Average
> 1567053027 447376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pyth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65771&oldid=54848 5* 03A 5* (+124) 10
< 1567053570 894963 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :webpack
> 1567058157 704158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CarlosLuna 5*  10New user account
> 1567058548 75724 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65772&oldid=65740 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+363) 10/* Introductions */
> 1567058709 571667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65773&oldid=65770 5* 03A 5* (+132) 10/* Examples */
> 1567058794 823640 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Zahlen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65774&oldid=65773 5* 03A 5* (+42) 10/* Examples */
> 1567058933 56877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07///14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65775&oldid=52040 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+86) 10/* Implementation */
< 1567059563 502363 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567067933 847540 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
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> 1567072354 599064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65776&oldid=65695 5* 03A 5* (-22290) 10It's all trash, I'm gonna redo it.
< 1567072842 990966 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567072935 954857 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't
< 1567072938 321657 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't
< 1567072941 285734 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast
< 1567073081 785116 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
< 1567073082 373676 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast
< 1567073084 323637 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
< 1567073088 829461 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
< 1567073089 330225 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast.
< 1567073089 682817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
< 1567073092 416103 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't
< 1567073093 682982 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
< 1567073097 206539 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, too long
< 1567073159 205270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste
< 1567073159 724337 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast.
< 1567073164 68158 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still way too long
< 1567073166 48738 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste
< 1567073203 370625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :help
< 1567073231 555998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :half a screen of HackEso spam
< 1567073282 104157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho
< 1567073282 527197 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task.
< 1567073292 173030 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho
< 1567073299 853865 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, still way too long
< 1567073323 517910 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you figure out what the right length is and then just type that one line in
< 1567073329 425793 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a denial of service attack on me
< 1567073345 425962 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: then you or oerjan will complain that I edit entries outside the channel... ok wait
< 1567073520 609060 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't
< 1567073522 717856 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, answer, ask, class, dance, example, fast, glass, half, last, laugh, pass, past, plant, rather, staff.
< 1567073576 349100 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, you're right about the smap
< 1567073577 860297 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam
< 1567074424 235189 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567078016 312768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cannot
< 1567078017 216422 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567078914 888962 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spam
< 1567078915 816756 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
< 1567078930 798386 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Turing
< 1567078931 900502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing is what you are doing when you Tur.
< 1567079007 779846 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Curry
< 1567079008 679484 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079012 162221 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Haskell
< 1567079013 197073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \   arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
< 1567079028 499664 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Church
< 1567079029 389233 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church invented a sane model of computation, but Turing was better with marketing, so now theoretical computer science defines everything based on obsolate hardware like tape recorders.
< 1567079038 456378 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Post
< 1567079039 335609 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Post? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079065 732758 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Emil
< 1567079066 683488 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079130 819813 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Kleene
< 1567079131 717615 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kleene? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079258 133695 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? randomness
< 1567079259 22453 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomness? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079261 686656 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? random
< 1567079262 560839 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :random? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079276 711751 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? arity
< 1567079277 683463 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :arity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079279 791217 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tuple
< 1567079280 724005 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079347 577082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Scheme
< 1567079348 423550 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079352 608272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Lisp
< 1567079353 654427 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079364 735410 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? entropy
< 1567079365 699276 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079425 535922 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? GitHub
< 1567079428 641258 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :GitHub? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079466 284485 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monotonicity
< 1567079467 251659 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :monotonicity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079520 467434 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? IRC
< 1567079524 750744 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
< 1567079549 474780 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? transducer
< 1567079550 617781 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :transducer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079570 288443 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tty
< 1567079571 147564 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tty? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567079581 764183 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you're here
< 1567079605 466093 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the definitions in https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/master/stdlib/cmp.robin#L147 don't seem right
< 1567079608 381387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've decided to make my presence known by generating pages of HackEso spam
< 1567079652 158298 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567079677 557978 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: feel free to suggest another test case
< 1567079970 41814 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very very pedantically, I think they should have different names (gte? gt? lte? lt?) but I'm sure that's not what you're referring to
< 1567079989 151433 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't have a problem with the names
< 1567079997 338534 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is it supposed to be a signed integer comparison?
< 1567080012 879512 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do I input negative integers in Robin S-expressions?
< 1567080067 182280 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, and (subtract 0 10) is how you can say -10
< 1567080085 260638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: can't I just directly input -10 ? would be so much easier
< 1567080091 327293 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well
< 1567080095 585961 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robin is not into "easier"
< 1567080217 952590 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, then (assert (> 6 4)) (assert (> 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736)))
< 1567080252 641048 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assert (equal? #f (> (subtract 0 1610612736) 1610612736)))
< 1567080346 949199 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't complain about the name because the names similar to what lisps have, so they fit your general naming scheme
< 1567080510 218174 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be problems with large numbers.
< 1567080555 828454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: then either fix that or document that
< 1567080607 220103 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm working on 0.4 now, I'll put it in the queue. Thanks for the report.
< 1567080632 393141 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(display (subtract 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) ; it says -1073741824
< 1567080689 538940 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567080730 384641 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that seems correct
< 1567080878 594513 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567080927 823886 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1610612736 :: Int32) - ((0 :: Int32) - (1610612736 :: Int32))
< 1567080929 977742 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1073741824
< 1567081100 33967 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could compare sign first, + > -, then only if signs the same do the subtract
< 1567081188 828830 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PART :#esoteric
< 1567081334 11488 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? unsigned
< 1567081335 15628 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567081466 279428 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? signed
< 1567081467 227171 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :signed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567081481 640679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp sign
< 1567081483 65640 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolute value:The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands. \ color:14C03o06lor is 10a 02p04henomenon 10fr07om13 ou11t03e11r 13s02p04ace 13de03sign02e13d11 t10o13
< 1567081486 704685 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? char
< 1567081487 582752 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
< 1567081509 646391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? long
< 1567081510 608478 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long is the Chinese word for dragon.
< 1567082006 927091 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? float
< 1567082007 776995 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :float? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567082724 807951 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1567084560 628179 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? short
< 1567084561 688580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :short? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567084564 755897 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? volatile
< 1567084568 766883 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :volatile? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567084575 902820 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? register
< 1567084576 732104 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :register? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567084587 226010 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? const
< 1567084588 72364 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :const? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567084661 964068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this game? whoever gets the longest streak of wisdom-non-entries wins?
< 1567085980 57602 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? int-e
< 1567085980 925211 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
< 1567086353 925387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom
< 1567086354 840347 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
< 1567086916 896132 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bvvedowowmrxjdfu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1567086925 544916 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ncczfxvtukhbvxzj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567086949 32278 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ozigsvmrkhiaojnx QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1567086949 820686 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qgtsauqkyfhmcxmi QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1567086984 597051 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gyihruazwgiwmswh JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567087002 267617 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567087032 79622 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567087120 521521 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567087263 781886 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nyrluaouspeotanf JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567087398 601528 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567088010 671990 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/develop-0.4/stdlib/cmp.robin
< 1567088070 412768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can find another hole in it, I will take that as a sign that I should start learning to use QuickCheck.
< 1567088219 334074 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should of course do that anyway, QuickCheck is pretty great.
< 1567088361 333425 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should.
< 1567088776 216278 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? color
< 1567088777 401772 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​14C03o06lor is 10a 02p04henomenon 10fr07om13 ou11t03e11r 13s02p04ace 13de03sign02e13d11 t10o13 d04ri08v02e 10h12um06an04i02ty i14ns09a04ne an14d 11bri13ng f13or08th t02he n10ew05 12age14 of Cth11u09l10hu.
< 1567088800 327918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctholor
< 1567088881 946505 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's still not good
< 1567088889 64139 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me get you the failing case
< 1567089015 388878 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (assert (> 0 (subtract (subtract 0 1073741824) 1073741824)))
< 1567089098 392762 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh, ok, zero
< 1567089132 425536 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(who cares about zero. it's not even a real number. nobody will use it in real calculations. real calculations involve real numbers.)
< 1567089228 67583 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I'll be setting up QuickCheck tomorrow, although how (or if) I'm going to integrate it with this language, I don't know
< 1567089248 298538 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you call into this language from Haskell?
< 1567089288 912991 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if QuickCheck really helps here though
< 1567089292 868856 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first version had unbounded Integers, where none of this would be an issue, but then I was like "Oh I want this to conceivably be simple to implement in assembly" like an idiot
< 1567089386 668264 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can certainly test it from Haskell, but I'd somewhat rather not have the tests be written in Haskell
< 1567089396 504172 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: then add arithmetic primitives. they don't really make the interpreter more complex, nor make the language harder to learn. the number of primitives isn't really the important thing you want to optimize for.
< 1567089441 160381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The number of primitives is exactly what this language optimizes for.
< 1567089455 32196 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just stop working on it.
< 1567089492 95310 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-(
< 1567090699 959985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1567092551 328141 :webpack!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :iczero
< 1567092826 480292 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567093325 115451 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567094655 545606 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't
< 1567094657 262248 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, ask, last, answer, class, half, pass, past, path, rather, dance, example, fast, glass, laugh, plant, staff, advance, advantage, branch, cast, chance, contrast, demand, glance, grant, master, photograph, sample, task, aunt, basket, bath, command, disaster, draft, draught, enhance, grass, laughter, mask, vast.
< 1567094661 930645 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :better
< 1567096136 508621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567096160 558526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ?? my parents have different accents and would disagree as to the pronunciation of almost all those words, but agree on "can't"
< 1567096170 871109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone actually pronounce it as "cant"?
< 1567096529 704622 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, both pronunciations exist. see file:///D:/ambrus/a/refe/dict/alan-pron/CAAPR-ref.html which gives /ɑː/ as the british and /æ/ as the american pronunciation for all these words; https://english.stackexchange.com/q/276763/ ; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t  
< 1567096542 850158 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but not everyone pronounces all these words with the same vowel
< 1567096625 586348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see, US versus British English
< 1567096640 30982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all those words vary between dialects within British English, but "can't" is much more consistent
< 1567096645 716184 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I once asked, if someone pronounces both "can" with a /æ/, then how do they distinguish between "can't dance" and "can dance". one person replied that they always pronounce "can" the verb with an unstressed vowel
< 1567096646 297321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems weird putting them on the same list
< 1567096661 668502 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not quite just US versus british. some british people use one vowel, some the other
< 1567096672 879838 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a split within british pronunciation
< 1567096682 670443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: on most of those words, just not (as far as I know) on "can't"
< 1567096700 667340 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567096704 959179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, even if "can" and "can't" use the same vowel, you can tell them apart by the presense of the "t"
< 1567096709 340811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not silent or anything
< 1567096710 787255 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible
< 1567096731 648600 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's why I'm giving an example with a "t" or "d" following it, as in "can't dance"
< 1567096742 74907 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case the extra "t" is hard to hear
< 1567096774 832150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to leave a gap between the words, English does a lot of flowing one word into the next but t…d is one situation where you really can't
< 1567096855 421837 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that sounds nice in theory, but when I actually listen to English, some speakers don't seem to put a pause, which sometimes makes "can't" followed by a "t" or "d" confusing to me
< 1567096888 259341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's hard to come up with generic rules for pronouncing English
< 1567096898 385916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people will do their own thing no matter what, and some accents are more or less unintelligible
< 1567096909 452113 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that "can't" works differently from the other words, I just don't notice that because I don't follow all these accents
< 1567096919 57871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, for pretty much any word, you can find someone who pronounces any given vowel in it as pretty much any other vowell
< 1567096925 377666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is an exaggeration but not much of one)
< 1567096939 781402 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567096978 926906 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk, I have to shed my wo
< 1567096984 217218 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567097005 703403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1567098285 548658 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567098479 492263 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:TwoFiftyFive14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65777&oldid=53835 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+15) 10changed signature
< 1567099324 68753 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567100435 59189 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567100460 595084 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567100531 263655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567102007 423907 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the pronunciation of the 'a' which lets you tell apart "can dance" from "can't dance" even if the latter is slurred together.
< 1567102043 867936 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they're identical for me?
< 1567102185 26179 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm pronouncing things slowly, the a's are identical, but when I'm speaking very quickly, the 'a' in "can" becomes just ə or elided altogether.
< 1567102203 194048 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't happen with "can't"
< 1567103063 419089 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm maybe
< 1567103067 562825 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard fo me to tell
< 1567103071 614832 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm paying attention
< 1567103537 699981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you can't tell or you can tell?
< 1567103567 11045 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1567103790 431945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does the word "shan't" behave then?
> 1567103893 340934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65778&oldid=61782 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+47) 10/* Music */
< 1567106236 855007 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567106260 955389 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567110725 548875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567110740 978053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "shan't" has almost died out, I think
< 1567110767 931617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word "shall" is mostly only used in formal contexts nowadays, and eliding it with "not" would only happen in informal speech, so as a result the word is rarely used at all
< 1567110780 36073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my best guess is that it works like "can't" but I haven't heard people say it enough to be sure
< 1567110781 491503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shan't" shan't be pronounced lest you sound like an old fart.
< 1567110786 727652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was once told that "shan't" was very slangy, similar to "ain't".
< 1567110816 915485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, this is a bad combination (a very informal phrase containing a word that's only used in formal settings)
< 1567110833 122320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shouldn't" or "mustn't" would be way more common in informal speech nowadays
< 1567110836 200335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or "can't" used incorrectly)
< 1567110858 871888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thou shan't pass!" just doesn't sound intimidating enough...
< 1567110887 34567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it should be "thou shalt not pass"?
< 1567110897 519263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hardly anyone can remember how to conjugate "thou" + verb nowadays
< 1567110952 332870 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm assuming that it would still be contracted to "shan't" for lack of alternatives.
< 1567110972 670217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it wouldn't be contracted because there isn't a viable contraction?
< 1567110984 396085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody should look this up.
< 1567110990 576843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it won't be me ;-)
< 1567110997 482863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the normal grammar rules would give "thou shan'st", but that has the letters in the wrong order
< 1567111014 403184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked up the conjugation of "shall" after "thou", it does indeed conjugate to "shalt"
< 1567111031 200682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what did they use in the movie, hmm.
< 1567111031 834628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does the s come from?
< 1567111079 355118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: most "thou" conjugations end -st
< 1567111088 121440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Du gehst." <-- German still has the "st".
< 1567111093 231985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a few exceptions, such as "shall" going to "shalt" not "shallst"
< 1567111115 529744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most? I can only think of a few.
< 1567111162 591624 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1567111166 965487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia lists only six that don't; I'm not sure if that's meant to be an exhaustive list or not
< 1567111172 642283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but implies that the vast majority of verbs do
< 1567111179 995629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both present and perfect tense
< 1567111205 755716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, it lists six irregular forms
< 1567111210 682749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some of those /also/ end -st
< 1567111255 95261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the regular form is to add -st or -est
< 1567111265 586073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you're right, I was only thinking of the irregular forms for some reason.
< 1567111321 820477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
< 1567111334 234634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567111338 259573 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567111344 865261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book?
< 1567111648 782294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, I'll just ignore shan't then
< 1567111684 694990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The book has "You cannot pass!"
< 1567111711 590764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spoken, not cried out loud.
< 1567111736 138443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the "thou shall not pass" phrasing ended up in public consciousness, then? (I remember it specifically as containing a misconjugated verb, but maybe others remember differently/)
< 1567111769 66036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, "he"/"she"/"it" still exist in modern English, and their conjugations changed from -th to -s at some point
< 1567111777 305916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe "thou"'s has also changed
< 1567111788 294637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do sometimes use "shall", but yes, it's rare. I don't think I use "shan't" except in quoting someone else using it (Harry Potter and the PS says, IIRC, in the first chapter, that Dudley has learnt a new word, "shan't". let me check that.)
< 1567111794 268168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: movies stick
< 1567111807 737769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but apparently it wasn't in the movie either
< 1567111837 388162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's the sort of word that petulant children might have used in the past
< 1567111845 608382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what HP says
< 1567111845 950541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZZNHekEQw certainly fooled me then
< 1567111860 930187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although nowadays you'd expect "won't" instead (modern children are unlikely to learn "shan't" as a word…)
< 1567111869 134554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, that chapter plays in about 1980
< 1567111882 545543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book?
< 1567111885 497494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567111899 554021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "cannot" IIRC.. let me check
< 1567111912 329943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's more than one English version of the movie?
< 1567111913 231531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I did check, fwiw.
< 1567111915 945527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be far from unheard of
< 1567111934 65278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35262/where-did-you-shall-not-pass-come-from says both the movie and the book says "cannot" (Gandalf)
< 1567111943 240850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe
< 1567111944 754294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first Harry Potter book (and thus the corresponding film) has different names in American and British English…
< 1567111979 902652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, the film has different names too? really?
< 1567112023 810757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not matching the book would surely be a marketing disaster
< 1567112048 752900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it?
< 1567112107 749160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe ais523 is speaking in jest
< 1567112135 3756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be survivable but that the people actually marketing it wouldn't want to risk it
< 1567112144 567359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the books were already famous by the time the first movie was released, and "Harry Potter" is enough for recognizability
< 1567112150 94440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me check
< 1567112179 152319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're right, the film has different titles too
< 1567112182 826385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting
< 1567112187 907733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (released in the United States, India and Pakistan as Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone)
< 1567112189 12461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was its dubbing changed too?
< 1567112198 580553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that they recorded the relevant lines multiple times
< 1567112201 298644 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask me about names in the Neverending Story. :P
< 1567112212 59311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't have been a noticeable amount of extra work for the actors
< 1567112231 433879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Did you read _Jim Knopf_?
< 1567112248 349974 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about _Momo_?
< 1567112269 476239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bastian = Bastian. Atreju = Atreyu. Xayide = Xayeede. Engywuck = Engywook. Fuchur = Falkor. It makes sense, but it did surprise me a lot when I first saw these...)
< 1567112290 817258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I have not read Jim Knopf. I only know Momo in german.
< 1567112327 769239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't read Jim Knopf?!
< 1567112337 572567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see the recent movie? I have it on Blu-Ray.
< 1567112346 106155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567112347 36309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't have a Blu-Ray reader so I haven't seen it.
< 1567112383 89449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And which of those three books is "the recent movie" based on?)
< 1567112418 36609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Because the American title was different, all scenes that mention the philosopher's stone by name had to be re-shot, once with the actors saying "philosopher's" and once with "sorcerer's".
< 1567112444 587590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jim Knopf.
< 1567112456 411683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was told that most big budget popular movies have separate dubbings for continental french and canadian french, as well as for european portugese and brazilian portugese; but I thought most of them don't have multiple english dubs.
< 1567112463 49356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3072732/
< 1567112490 640854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's different in text of course, which is easier to change, eg. it's cheap for some software to have separate american vs british english text
< 1567112494 865621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's mostly just because it'd be a waste, Brits are used to seeing American English in films
< 1567112517 20573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but the HP movies have mostly british characters
< 1567112531 19058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the situation with computer games is weird, many computer game manufacturers have separate European and American translation teams
< 1567112533 233998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens with films like that?
< 1567112547 834220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often you get separate British English and American English translations
< 1567112582 67583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes the American English translation is reused to save time, e.g. if they want to get a release out in the UK more quickly
< 1567112582 806946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :video games are different, because they're made with most of the dialog in japanese originally, as opposed to films where most of the dialog is in english originally
< 1567112594 58833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leads to translation inconsistencies between a game and its sequel sometimes
< 1567112595 788012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1567112603 67228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because one is the British English version, one is the American English version)
< 1567112605 836056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are those translations of the text of the video game, or of the voice acting or dubbing of the video game?
< 1567112618 411399 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you should make that into a wisdom entry
< 1567112627 913493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: normally text
< 1567112633 190660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't play a whole lot of games that have voice acting
< 1567112642 583643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it says more about the video games that you play than about video games in general)
< 1567112677 915642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, two out of the three largest console manufacturers are Japanese, and this thus affects all their first-party games
< 1567112685 682285 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays a lot of contemporary click&point adventures, and most of those have voice acting
< 1567112705 401691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there a lot of contemporary click⅋point adventures?
< 1567112713 642593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, ais523: yes, the bias comes from how I see people play a lot of nintendo games
< 1567112714 43206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm. You may have a point there. I'm focused on the PC platform.
< 1567112742 903439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though nintendo games are less popular here in europe (still quite popular, mind you), I see them a lot on the internet
< 1567112759 288693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are a lot of contemporary point&click adventures
< 1567112775 203511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think any of them use linear logic of the kind you alluded to
< 1567112778 859940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are a few? I thought they were pretty rare nowadays.
< 1567112811 106687 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you get into game mechanics where items sometimes get used up? hmm. there's an opportunity to overthink this here, certainly.)
< 1567112813 186833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how do you typo an upside-down ampersand? I have a huge number of characters on my keyboard but don't know how to type that one
< 1567112852 423388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that was a typo
< 1567112856 111775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, but I like to imagine a world in which I do.
< 1567112877 302460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :First I pressed  & &, and it didn't do anything, but I was kind of hoping it would.
< 1567112891 556827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the first thing I tried too :-D
< 1567112893 438264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then I just inserted it.
< 1567112900 856693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: two ampersands? why not an ampersand and a grave accent?
< 1567112915 104052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one minute of searching in gucharmap: ⅋
< 1567112915 998742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's by analogy with ¿ and ¡
< 1567112943 755476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC 1345, the most complete repository of compose sequences I know of (although it disagrees with X on some issues), doesn't have a compose sequence for ⅋
< 1567112957 682433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the best Unicode searcher. It's very convenient.
< 1567112958 979564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⅋
< 1567112959 484748 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+214B TURNED AMPERSAND]
< 1567113023 107120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that my taste in games is focused heavily on gameplay over other factors, also I can't easily download large games or run those with DRM on my computer (because DRM normally requires an Internet connection)
< 1567113042 958760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these considerations combined mean that voice acting is very unlikely to be present in a game I play
< 1567113066 827843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, there is some amount of voice acting in some games I play, but it typically implies that I'll own a physical version (and it may well be a console game)
< 1567113110 27382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…the other impressive thing about RFC 1345 is that it is about non-ASCII character sets and compose sequences, yet is written entirely in ASCII
< 1567113124 990334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main reason for defining all the compose sequences was to make it possible to readably write the rest of the document
< 1567113140 57454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1345.html doesn't seem to mention the upside down ampersand
< 1567113156 768918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, ais523 looked it up already
< 1567113317 726356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my Unicode selector is already the best, but it's kind of cobbled together out of multiple pieces which isn't ideal.
< 1567113329 33493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write an even better Unicode selector thing.
< 1567113339 706831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…actually no, this isn't ASCII, is it? it's /actually/ ISO646
< 1567113347 266529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were ASCII it'd be able to use things like square brackets literally
< 1567113373 726166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trouble is that rendering Unicode text is really hard.
< 1567113456 90014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's pretty much only one free library for Unicode text layout, and it has some problems.
< 1567113474 684978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the author/maintainer seems to be a jerk about any criticisms of it.
< 1567113519 787212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, theoretically libuncursed2 is planned to do Unicode text /layout/ (although not rendering, it just works out where to put the characters)
< 1567113549 369459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, layout is the hard part.
< 1567113598 565128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell there's no specification for how to do it or anything like that.
< 1567113631 116420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Librarie that do it just get a bunch of language-specific implementations from people who speak particular languages.
< 1567113640 510575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main complexities are a) grapheme clustering, which definitely is specified; b) bidirectional layout, which I think is specified but haven't checked
< 1567113649 244360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's libuncursed2?
< 1567113652 109659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but libuncursed2 is monospace only
< 1567113663 619766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a curses replacement that I was working on, then stopped
< 1567113688 359931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, monospace-only is probably easier.
< 1567113690 529636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so was libuncursed1, for that matter; libuncursed2 is meant to have a less ridiculous API, though, whereas libuncursed1's was almost curses-compatible)
< 1567113701 728166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to lay out general text.
< 1567113736 705789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want a library that implements the necessary algorithms and doesn't insist on taking over the world with regard to memory management or whatever.
< 1567113743 54288 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: pango is probably one of the very few libraries that tries to tackle all its complexity, yes
< 1567113746 937609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell why harfbuzz wants to reference-count everything as its only API.
< 1567113751 601958 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pango just uses harfbuzz, right?
< 1567113756 294492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know
< 1567113763 257985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might
< 1567113768 846384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it uses underneath, I just use its api
< 1567113781 785546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has dependencies
< 1567113802 766159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to do lots of magic about accessing fonts installed on the system
< 1567113815 89255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I don't want magic.
< 1567113842 322194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it has lots of user-configurable knobs, so I think you can turn whatever magic you don't want off
< 1567113859 154240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see how you want to do general text layout without magic, unless you know a lot about every script there is in unicode
< 1567113860 520563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be able to put glyphs in a font atlas thing and have them rendered on the GPU anyway.
< 1567113873 186035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or every script there is in existing fonts, rather
< 1567113892 102862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably given a particular string I can figure out which glyphs are necessary for rendering it.
< 1567113903 598192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, that's pango's job
< 1567113910 581992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :figuring out which glyphs to render and where exactly
< 1567113912 598009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bit more
< 1567113937 592201 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can use pango with multiple different frontends that actually draw the glyphs there if you want to render them, including on GPU
< 1567113952 49608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want libraries that don't ever call malloc.
< 1567113959 50338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a pretty reasonable request.
< 1567113977 467711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that... may be hard in this case
< 1567113992 140097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1567114003 313411 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567114013 744407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want the same library to do both, right? help with text layout and never call malloc that is
< 1567114046 270309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want any library to call malloc. That doesn't seem that unreasonable.
< 1567114048 104758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably make a version that calls your own malloc-like functions if you really need to
< 1567114084 948709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely don't want libraries to do reference counting. That's just ridiculous.
< 1567114085 74364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it might be hard because you may have to go down to all dependencies including gobject
< 1567114106 325146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: again, that will be hard with the current status of these libraries
< 1567114143 288486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for rendering layout, that seems an unreasonable requirement to me. surely you want them to cache the information they learned out about fonts and stuff, and they need refcounting for that
< 1567114185 587360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libuncursed, at least, inherently needs memory from somewhere; what would be your suggested API for that?
< 1567114209 74867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that the intended API uses nothing but Unicode strings and 32-bit integers to make it easy to wrap from arbitrary languages)
< 1567114221 187983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I could pass in some amount of memory that it requests.
< 1567114222 734591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling malloc seems like the obvious method
< 1567114267 682677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main thing I want is a clear understanding of the memory usage and allocation profile of my program.
< 1567114280 727062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I for one am fine with libraries like this doing malloc and some reference counting
< 1567114323 76053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is it OK if all the routines that can allocate memory have a name clearly indicating that?
< 1567114337 612521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can still do that with malloc, you can probably replace malloc
< 1567114380 298986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be better, and it would also be better if I can pass in an allocator rather than it calling the global malloc.
< 1567114402 389327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, there are some functions where I want to make sure that they don't malloc, but for anything like text layout or rendering, using malloc is fine for me, 
< 1567114422 820271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it can clean up after itself of course, doesn't leak memory like crazy
< 1567114699 358731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for english pronunciation, article http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html is fresh out from the press
< 1567114716 90768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it's written in English?
< 1567114725 682435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes sense given its topic
< 1567114761 577528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: David alwasy writes some articles in English, it's just less common than it used to be in the early years of his blog
< 1567114770 685586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the blog is very old, so some change is not surprising)
< 1567114824 461752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html is new and also in English
< 1567114900 563721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"always writes some articles in English" is a modal logic thing?
< 1567114908 484266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"always eventually", I guess.
< 1567114998 9901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html is in french and is about english language
< 1567115031 668875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
< 1567115043 265163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567115160 673898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these days David keeps writing more and more stuff on Twitter rather than on the blog, and some of that is always in English too
< 1567115698 434010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own answers: warn=worn; fairy≠ferry; spear it≠spirit; fire≠far; law=lore; ant?=aunt ("aunt" varies); full≠fool; sun=son; horse=hoarse; pain=pane; hire?=higher (both vary); threw=through; luck≠look; would=wood; poor≠pure; brewed=brood; steering≠stirring; shed≠shared; morning=mourning; tower≠tyre ("tire" doesn't exist in en_GB); farm≠form; sat≠set; dolly≠Dali; hit≠heat; bury=berry; putt≠put; nose=knows; tower≠tar; 
< 1567115699 957418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :earn=urn; [h]urry≠[f]urry; [n]earer≠[m]irror; stow≠store; poor=pour; hairy≠Harry; fir=fur; for=four; surely≠Shirley; cot≠caught; meet=meat; cap≠cup
< 1567115765 940605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does "tire" not exists even as an uncommon verb?
< 1567115778 614107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh yes, I missed the verb possibility
< 1567115798 689644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly only used as "tired" but does exist as a verb on its own
< 1567115842 296049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "I tire of this farce!" when Jabba drops Oola into the Rancor pit in Darths & Droids http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1210.html
< 1567115862 921846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: If the library wants to do caching that seems fine, but surely it should have a lower-level interface where I can control the caching?
< 1567115899 345688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know the details. you can probably control at least as much to be able to ask to purge the cashes
< 1567115905 64825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cash/cach/
< 1567115937 799333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check the manual at https://developer.gnome.org/pango/unstable/ if you want, or a local copy
< 1567115978 604926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I definitely don't want to use glib.
< 1567115985 957678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time I've tried to use a glib thing it's been miserable.
< 1567116013 148959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think pango itself doesn't use glib, only cairo does
< 1567116019 973055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pango uses gobject, which is sort of related
< 1567116023 43121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure of this
< 1567116042 32223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice I use pango+cairo together (pango has an easy api for that), so it uses glib
< 1567116050 964721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only internally, it doesn't expose that
< 1567116084 895893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does pango expose gobject I think
< 1567116113 617113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't bother me this way
< 1567116120 737556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would bother me if it was exposed of course
< 1567116218 995692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. pango uses the type int to give width, not gint
< 1567117257 345212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my three wrong answers for the poll (despite that no answers are wrong) are for horse, son, and mourning
< 1567117273 300699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand how "o" works in English pronunciation
< 1567117280 216244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time I pronounce it randomly
< 1567117309 319119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually matches the vowel in "pot" but sometimes it just means something else, seemingly at random
< 1567117568 215453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oo" and "ou" confuse me, because I always try to pronounce them as long u (or sometimes short U for ou) when stressed
< 1567117594 331968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a lot of words where it's pronounce as some of the o vowels, but I can never remember which ones
< 1567117617 501271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know that "poor" and "pour" are strange, and I pronounce those inconsistently
< 1567117640 196881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I do know some frequent words like "four" have long o
< 1567117659 141327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still in many words, it confuses me, and that's what got me in "mourning"
< 1567117713 593266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! you must have tried to pronounce it like "hour"
< 1567117725 31021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to figure out what the other viable reading of the word was
< 1567117727 115745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also know that "your" and "you're" has long o, despite that you has U
< 1567117751 389875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good guideline is that an r after a vowel almost always affects how the vowel is pronounced
< 1567117753 817470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for "horse", I thought it has a _short_ o, and I'm still surprised that it doesn't
< 1567117759 179615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the r itself may end up silent
< 1567117780 986816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"horse" doesn't really have an "o" at all, the vowel is "or"
< 1567117819 134604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are probably exceptions to how "or" is pronounced because there are exceptions to everything, but it's one of the more reliably pronounced out of the various English vowel spellings
< 1567117823 393841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tour"
< 1567117858 761998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"t" + "or"
< 1567117877 970926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"our" is ambiguous, it can either be pronounced like "or" or else more like "ower"
< 1567117900 142910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"son" is the worse, because I have heared that word enough, so I should have known how it's pronounce
< 1567117931 169077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "horse" I can say that I just don't care about them so I don't listen to texts that talk about horses
< 1567117940 423606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a reasonable excuse
< 1567117960 710569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, from my point of view "son" is irregular so it's easy to imagine someone guessing that wrong
< 1567117975 694284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, lots of words are irregular, that's sort of the problem
< 1567117985 891693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "horse" is regular (apart from the e at the end) so that's more of a surprise
< 1567118001 894482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think the e at the end is needed because "hors" is an imported French word and thus has a silent s)
< 1567118103 750208 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567118189 298496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hungarian is so much easier, because there used to be fewer words with irregular spelling. these days there are somewhat more because some people aren't willing to write a lot of english words in their english spelling even long after they're definitely naturalized. "ímél" is the most annoying to me, because so many people still write it as "email" or "e-mail"
< 1567118192 988668 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utfiwapcuqlbsssj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567118203 183987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "fájl" vs "file" is older
< 1567118230 857622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily people get "fájl" right more often because they see it in the localized windows UI menubars
< 1567118339 863516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Hungarian respelled all loanwords in Hungarian spelling according to their pronunciation?
< 1567118355 920394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :among the words that aren't neologisms, the more famous ones that have irregular spelling or may have irregular spelling in some dialects are "kisebb", "egy", "köpeny", "szőlő", "tízes", "húszas", and there's a few more than I forgot
< 1567118383 229435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although áj is a bit of a weird way to spell English long i
< 1567118384 895386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus there are a few interjections that don't follow the normal phonology rules so their transcription is odd 
< 1567118479 573558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: loanwords are supposed to be respelled if they've become a regular part of the language and they're not proper nouns; but they are kept in the original spelling while they're rare and just ad-hoc borrowed, as long as it's borrowed from a language usually written in latin script (including serbian)
< 1567118558 349790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't find "áj" weird for spelling the english long i. it corresponds closely to the sound. 
< 1567118587 130410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I find it hard to understand what j does in Hungarian
< 1567118806 14409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in this case I think of it as a semi-vowel that forms a glide with the previous vowel. hungarian has those only _after_ a vowel, not before, which is why people with hungarian accents like me pronounce some english w-words strange.
< 1567118865 154072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an analogous u semi-vowel in hungarian too, but it's pretty rare, basically only occurs in the word "autó" and related words, and even then the pronunciation is variable, plus transcribed ancient greek words with a vowel + u
< 1567118886 482438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vowel other than omikron) + u
< 1567118915 981796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC Hungarian "ly" is a sound that doesn't exist in English
< 1567118927 300285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ly" is pronounced the same as "j"
< 1567118951 502818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't see how that would work
< 1567119010 76998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except in a few old family names that spell "i" as "y", such as Thököly)
< 1567119029 702712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as Hungarian "j" or English "j"?
< 1567119049 190307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought English "j" was close to Hungarian "gy" (not identical, but close enough to be mutually intelligible)
< 1567119073 604371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in Hungarian "j"
< 1567119085 598108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungarian "j" and Hungarian "ly" are pronounced the same
< 1567119105 55685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's basically the same sound as the english "y" when it's a consonant, such as in "yet" and "yellow"
< 1567119114 856117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's a bit of a surprise
< 1567119119 902440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know which one to spell words with?
< 1567119143 480816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rote memorization, just like in english?
< 1567119143 785934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y"
< 1567119149 768317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, rote memorization
< 1567119163 71121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my banes were "muszáj" and "papagáj"
< 1567119231 220520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few rules that help: grammatical suffixes never have "ly" but often have "j", and "ly" doesn't occur at the start of a word excet in "lyuk" and its derivatives
< 1567119237 531124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" ← because that would modify the vowel rather than being a consonant
< 1567119246 358156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also hints in that "ly" is rarer than "j", and "ly" is rare before a consonant
< 1567119353 793371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do have to learn a long list of words with "ly" and "j" in school, eg. common ones like "folyik, lyuk", and rare ones that teachers like eg. "gólya, sirály, karvaly, papagáj" (four birds), "gálya, bója", 
< 1567119375 58414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even obscure words like "zsöllye" which I never heard or read anyone use except in the context of learning the spelling
< 1567119545 831835 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"zsöllye" means the ordinary seats in a theatre, as opposed to the seats in boxes, but everyone just calls them "szék" which means chair
< 1567119560 726658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need a special word for them?
< 1567119589 795121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :special words for types of birds, that I can understand
< 1567119613 682829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are way more than the four I listed that we had to learn
< 1567120953 216559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "bója" is a third one that I can call my bane, besides "muszáj" and "papagáj". all three sound like they should be spelled with "ly", but they aren't
< 1567121013 666658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these days I think I know all three of them, and all other words
< 1567121110 941045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"j" vs "ly" in all other words that is, not the spelling of all other words in general
< 1567121406 646386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also all newly created words use "j" except where the "ly" is taken from a word they're derived from, so "ly" is a finite list, though there are obscure obsolate words on that list that I may not know
< 1567121408 977356 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567121471 993854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know even _some_ obscure words with "ly" that I never use and aren't even sure in the meaning, like "csobolyó" and "süly" and "kesely"
< 1567121817 448950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-69.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567121885 31892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What about the smaller case of one function that returns variable-size data?
< 1567121901 778411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are many options other than a malloc call and most of them are better.
< 1567121924 81129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the API was designed so that all possible string-returning functions return data that exists literally as part of the executable, so it's just pointers to static strings
< 1567121945 762521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty major restriction but for something like libuncursed2 it may be doable
< 1567121990 873118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which API?
< 1567121993 540706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in general.
< 1567122013 525673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :libuncursed2's
< 1567122023 275818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general there is probably no good cross-language solution
< 1567122048 163916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. Say in C.
< 1567122088 330981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :count-and-copy is a solution that is capable of being good in some circumstances and is likely to be portable cross-language
< 1567122109 882038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you call to ask how much space to reserve, then provide memory of that size for the called function to copy the return value into)
< 1567122126 335844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some functions it doesn't work as you have to do the same calculations twice
< 1567122126 580591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can result in some duplicated work unfortunately.
< 1567122130 902905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1567122145 258108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing you can do is turn your function into a coroutine/state machine that can suspend when it needs more memory.
< 1567122155 236255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is kind of similar to a malloc call (but more flexible).
< 1567122233 198886 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could pass a large buffer into the function and have it tell you how much it used.
< 1567122273 431125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "that doesn't work because you need memory to record your current state to be able to return it"
< 1567122287 626967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I realised that it suspends mid-calculation as soon as it runs out of memory
< 1567122307 949201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, you give it a "stack frame" struct that it can record its current state in.
< 1567122332 195289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm not sure it's been tried before?
< 1567122343 378593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coroutines + memory allocation as two problems that are each used to solve the other
< 1567122534 796772 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :webpack
< 1567122672 889851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you're implementing sprintf, which returns a variable-size output.
< 1567122701 905411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal thing to do is to call it twice to get the length the first time.
< 1567122737 103356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you're implementing printf using sprintf, you don't even want to allocate a full-size buffer. You want to sprintf to a fixed-size buffer until it's full, then flush it, and repeat until you're done.
< 1567122761 419613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ideally you want a coroutine that yields a stream of characters
< 1567122765 84746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The coroutine formulation seems the most natural for that sort of thing. It's not even about allocation in that case because you never want the full string in memory.
< 1567122787 590693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow
< 1567122795 929020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you really have hit on an important discovery here
< 1567122800 211189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think yielding a character at a time isn't really what you want (except maybe conceptually).
< 1567122821 71322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just want to give it a buffer and have it fill the buffer as much as it can based on its current state.
< 1567122835 440111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "yield…stream" would ideally have some sort of buffering, but maybe it could exist at a higher level somehow?
< 1567122842 805538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than being built into the source code of the functions in question
< 1567122917 450386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, these are details you can figure out in some reasonable way. The main point is the way flow control should happen.
< 1567122927 50159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control flow!
< 1567122931 824033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always get it wrong.
< 1567123012 71272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ironically, this actually /is/ a flow control problem (in the sense of working out how much should be buffered before sending it)
< 1567123239 979251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if languages helped you write this kind of coroutine.
< 1567123252 995880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you can do it yourself easily enough in a case like this.
< 1567123285 314575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :async (of async/await) does something quite similar to this, but not quite the same as it doesn't handle the memory allocation
< 1567123308 333098 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean?
< 1567123324 8744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also which language's async/await? There are many languages that assign slightly different meanings to those names.)
< 1567123345 150528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the general idea of what async does is that it makes a function into a state machine that can be suspended
< 1567123376 559095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's tied to await to choose the timing of that
< 1567123394 412148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess generators more generally are the general case of that
< 1567123396 128702 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :await is about one state machine waiting for another state machine, right?
< 1567123436 610953 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1567123439 706895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of, it basically continues the other state machine while suspending itself, and continues itself if that state machine returns, or blocks if that state machine blocks
< 1567123455 476023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so allocating memory in this scenario is basically "await memory"
< 1567123518 116604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think malloc is probably one of the less interesting/more extreme use cases of this sort of thing.
< 1567123527 590443 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway in the simple version of this allocation is just handled explicitly by the caller.
< 1567123530 611879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would it be like?
< 1567123548 568024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean, say you need more memory
< 1567123559 526631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do "await memory" which basically tries to allocate memory from the slice of memory you already have
< 1567123571 151899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have enough that causes a yield, with "not enough memory" as the reason
< 1567123575 665796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the caller can resize the slice and continue from there
< 1567123594 711990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do have enough, then the allocation (i.e. used-length from capacity) succeeds, so you continue
< 1567123636 945975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that's an option.
< 1567123732 509420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A simple API would be something like
< 1567123762 437541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :char buf[100]; SprintfState state; sprintf_init(&state, "test %d %s\n", 123, some_string); while (!state.done) { sprintf_chunk(&state); write(1, buf, state.chunk_size); }
< 1567123815 601548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite, you never told sprintf_init where the buffer was
< 1567123825 381799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's easily fixable I think
< 1567123826 816241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, that's another argument.
< 1567123839 426158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would either be part of sprintf_chunk or sprintf_init
< 1567123842 117592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably sprintf_chunk
< 1567123862 898137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly sprintf_chunk
< 1567123939 102660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd just be sprintf_chunk(&state, buf, sizeof buf); in this case, since it never needs to refer to old memory or anything like that.
< 1567123958 682628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this post -- https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/d57cdc165e79a21637fe5a721375afba -- and the one it links to talk about these state-machine-style APIs.
< 1567123966 93685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a much more radical API than this
< 1567123988 792137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, your API doesn't work because of this:
< 1567124004 558608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I was trying to think of the simplest case where this is useful.
< 1567124004 842151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :char buf[100]; SprintfState state; sprintf_init(&state, "%s", "some really really really … really long string");
< 1567124013 486500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :string needs to go into state, but it has a fixed size
< 1567124021 823474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does string need to go into state?
< 1567124033 918401 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the maximum number of varargs needs to fit in state.
< 1567124035 980166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only out parameter of sprintf_init
< 1567124062 34233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you assuming that the caller-provided string remains allocated from sprintf_init to sprintf_chunk?
< 1567124065 142521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But state only needs to store a pointer to its arguments.
< 1567124070 439234 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm assuming that.
< 1567124085 682470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, OK; that's kind-of a mentally abhorrent assumption to me
< 1567124104 860683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a memory usage assumption that a) isn't documented, and b) might not be true from all calling languages
< 1567124112 767030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? It seems pretty reasonable to me.
< 1567124119 747176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can enforce it with a language like Rust if you want.
< 1567124134 853467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took me a moment to check if it was even expressible in Rust
< 1567124138 684674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would certainly document it if I was writing documentation for this.
< 1567124180 474414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the more radical API you were thinking of?
< 1567124190 414993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, but SprintfState needs to be generic over a lifetime parameter that says how long the parameters to sprintf_init are alive for
< 1567124200 59663 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 QUIT :Changing host
< 1567124200 97856 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567124260 398831 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think copying the erally really long string is surely more abhorrent than ensuring its lifetime is correct.
< 1567124263 825018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so my idea was that you have a buffer that can be any size you like, you give that to sprintf_init and it stores as much as it can in the buffer, internal state, output characters, everything
< 1567124294 514413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't have enough memory to do what it wants to do it stops and returns an out-of-memory, you can then realloc the buffer to be larger and rerun, it'll continue from where it left off
< 1567124321 199291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also dump out the characters written so far (one at a time, as many as possible, or whatever), perhaps shrinking the amount of state that's in use
< 1567124327 771430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think of this as a coroutine, it makes sense: A routine's arguments are presumably guaranteed to stay alive until the function returns. A coroutine's "arguments" (the arguments to _init) can reasonably be subject to the same assumption.
< 1567124338 613797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is just that you tell it to go as far as possible, then it tells you when it stopped
< 1567124348 261451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you'd have to give the same arguments with every call in this API
< 1567124411 306300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do that you'll presumably have to copy the string out of the internal buffer into the place you want it when you're done?
< 1567124446 855361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, but that's the same as in your example (you're copying out of buf after calling sprintf_chunk)
< 1567124467 46915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can just give it a buf that points where I want.
< 1567124491 915098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only real difference between your and my versions is that buf and state are the same variable and state can thus steal from buf to record as much as it needs to
< 1567124500 404915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case it's stack-allocated but there's no reason for that in general.
< 1567124518 709182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example if stdout is buffered I can pass my output buffer directly to sprintf_chunk.
< 1567124547 54666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… perhaps this suggests some general model involving coroutines communicating with streams
< 1567124548 923380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if I'm writing to a C++ std::string or whatever else I can just pass a pointer to that memory. Then if I need to resize it I can pass a pointer to the new memory to keep writing.
< 1567124566 965146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like fputs (i.e. the buffered version of write) is a coroutine in its own right
< 1567124587 214025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that it does a blocking write or something else?
< 1567124602 226562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense that it gathers up input into an internal state buffer
< 1567124617 33074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :across repeated calls
< 1567124653 700597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess.
< 1567124663 28685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I always forget that fputs doesn't include a \n
< 1567124674 58790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said fputs not puts :-)
< 1567124710 813951 :webpack!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero NICK :iczero
< 1567124746 107650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should just write a sprintf with this API.
< 1567124760 586370 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obviously much better than the regular API, which is pretty bad.
< 1567124779 758433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go to bed, have to go to work early tomorrow
< 1567124781 508662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :night everyone
< 1567124784 302134 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's no way to implement printf out of sprintf or vice versa, without arbitrary allocation.)
< 1567124788 493918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1567124791 824792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good nais523.
< 1567125015 739699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote on a paper, a Scrabble variant, which is Go-Scrabble, which is using Go stones in addition to Scrabble.
< 1567125261 95406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the kind of API you're talking about is more reasonable in other cases where you have more computation going on.
< 1567125291 318241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'd characterize it as passing an arena to your coroutine.
< 1567125561 113859 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567125712 586814 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567125877 178930 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1567126210 472923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65779&oldid=65776 5* 03A 5* (+438) 10
< 1567126480 794913 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w
< 1567126482 721897 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:tall//A Tall proof is a proof with a small hole, which can only be filled by another Tall proof. \ eol//EOL stands for End Of Lawn. It's often found past the wabe. oerjan requests your presence there immediately. \ hovercraft//a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner. \ fisdom//Fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station. \ operation//Operation is the opposite
< 1567126486 866978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1567126487 375390 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2: of cooperation.
< 1567126527 615994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits eol
< 1567126529 269505 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachäf Zarutiän Zarutiän Zarutiän
> 1567126825 842738 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65780&oldid=65779 5* 03A 5* (+605) 10/* Arrays */
< 1567127875 229380 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.14.70.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567131235 588348 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utfiwapcuqlbsssj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1567132691 380936 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65781&oldid=65780 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+0) 10/* Sets */ fixed a formatting error
> 1567138346 66794 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65782&oldid=65616 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+190) 10/* Madbrain */ mailbox truth machine by me.
< 1567139898 324464 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote kmc
< 1567139898 810925 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :579)  COCKS [...]  truly cocks \ 609)  You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes.   `quote kmc   686)  COCKS [...]  truly cocks   Well, in theory. \ 679)  damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 682)  has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people \ 712)  the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent giv
< 1567139906 962698 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote kmc
< 1567139907 436269 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :579)  COCKS [...]  truly cocks \ 609)  You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes.   `quote kmc   686)  COCKS [...]  truly cocks   Well, in theory. \ 679)  damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 682)  has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people \ 712)  the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent giv
< 1567139911 264219 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring
< 1567139915 402948 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote shachaf 
< 1567139915 900960 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :839)  GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth \ 1059) <@elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
< 1567139950 48087 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....what was the context for that?
< 1567140004 919628 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently I tried to autocomplete Factor, which as we all know begins with s.
< 1567140307 231458 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo_ 
< 1567140331 92453 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi
< 1567140666 682687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: himc
< 1567140726 437979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :earlier i was going to send you a link to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gKhM8gqbD8 although i don't remember why
< 1567141251 409252 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wow
< 1567141698 526704 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it the cutest though
< 1567141705 852352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than cats obviously
< 1567145459 48374 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567145461 580623 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we saw a cat today
< 1567145468 485391 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the way back from thai food
< 1567145469 386840 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :standing in someone's driveway
< 1567145482 514175 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know the government of thailand made a smartphone app that will tell you where the nearest thai restaurant is
< 1567145496 150498 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a huge program to promote thai cuisine
< 1567145632 842047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cats are tg
< 1567145655 48054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friend showed me a bunch of cute cat pictures he took the other day
< 1567145657 137156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was great
> 1567145958 830265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65783&oldid=65781 5* 03A 5* (+271) 10
> 1567146184 895887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65784&oldid=65783 5* 03A 5* (+182) 10/* Miscellaneous */
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< 1567153183 88576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "void SHA1_str(Str str, U8 output[static SHA1_HASH_BYTES]);"
< 1567153186 967686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :p. fancy use of static, huh
> 1567153692 143768 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65785&oldid=65784 5* 03A 5* (+77) 10Dumb 11-line transpiler
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< 1567154578 403392 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567154669 107574 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, ais523: re memory allocation with coroutines, this is usually done with memory alloc callbacks instead of coroutines. many libraries allow you to set a callback to allocate more memory, and some even allow you to pass a cookie to it so it can be a closure different for each state.
< 1567154694 409515 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for writing to streams, a callback to do the underlying write (flush) or read (fill) from buffer is mostly already what happens:
> 1567154729 867278 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitwise Trance14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65786&oldid=65704 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-109) 10That sentence did not make much sense. In the "I/O format" paragraph it says that the program can be terminated from outside based on the output and it does not affect the computational class
< 1567154740 303524 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ streams explicitly work that way, and C FILE effectively works that way these days, possibly with optimizations for common cases, though only glibc exposes the interface to make a FILE with custom read/write functions
< 1567154824 598548 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the streams usually don't allocate extra memory, but either write to a file or a fixed-size buffer, but there are versions like asprintf that do allocate
< 1567154899 359777 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, in many cases you use sprintf to format a number in formats other than %f, in which case you can give a bound for the number of characters output, similarly with strftime with numeric formats, so sometimes using a fixed size buffer is reasonable
< 1567154932 558910 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that when you get the buffer size wrong, you get programs that mysteriously fail in months that have a long name, or some such
< 1567154991 331792 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exception is kernel interfaces, because those usually don't want to call back the user, so those are indeed implemented as coroutines that stop when they passed as much data to the process that it's allocated
< 1567155029 335472 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most common case is the read call, to which you give a buffer, and you can call it again if the kernel has more input for you
< 1567155062 599326 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567155064 943206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the interface I specified more general and easier than an allocation callback?
< 1567155070 462898 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's also other stuff like readlink and getsockopt where the kernel can tell you how long buffer you need, though often you can guess correctly
< 1567155093 528157 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, for readlink, lstat _usually_ tells you how much of a buffer you need, but that fails for /proc files
< 1567155101 806918 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: usually no
< 1567155132 555954 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: some functions like interpreters are complicated, and may need to allocate way deep in the call stack
< 1567155140 682673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sure.
< 1567155141 230195 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so arranging to save the state and return in that case is hard
< 1567155158 47968 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel has to do it anyway for syscalls, like I said
< 1567155174 668140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant easier to use, not easier to implement.
< 1567155178 796498 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some network interfaces have to as well
< 1567155263 144219 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: even that is not clear to me. with something like the lua interpreter or the gmp/mpir arbitrary precision integer functions, it's more convenient to set the allocation function once rather than to have to check the return value of almost every call and call it again if it's out of memory
< 1567155280 585493 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1567155299 789360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you should try to have exactly the same interface for a programming language interpreter and sprintf.
< 1567155305 122907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of silly.
< 1567155317 577222 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well sure
< 1567155449 491012 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a more typical case when coroutines may help is where you're communicating through network through a protocol that requires lots of back and forth stuff, which you do often want to write as a state machine that returns each time it wants to select
< 1567155453 805438 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is how libcurl works
< 1567155596 953925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also interested in how compiler support can help you make these things.
< 1567155622 26581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I wonder whether there's an implementation of sprintf specifically that behaves the way I said?
< 1567155644 106864 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't implement either printf or sprintf in terms of the other one efficiently, which is unfortunate.
< 1567155761 645099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, does anyone use glibc obstacks?
< 1567155772 471180 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: behaves as a state machine that can continue the same sprintf call? I don't think there's one, but it would be sort of unnecessary: you just do separate parts of sprintf individually anyway, and for a single one, redoing the work like you need with snprintf now is not much extra overhead to what printf already has
< 1567155804 209355 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, but subversion uses apache's own implementation from libapr that is similar to them
< 1567155807 9880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a large string output with sprintf, you need a large allocation as well.
< 1567155820 299650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas printf can just use a constant-size buffer.
< 1567155833 920476 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocates everything in whatever they call the equivalent of obstacks, and then free everything at once later
< 1567155842 331244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's probably right that you should just have your own implementation rather than relying on glibc.
< 1567155852 837904 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my own and it's only a few lines anyway.
< 1567155860 110597 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't use obstacks from glibc because glibc is rather nonportable to non-linux systems
< 1567155894 100774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I brought this up because I thought obstack had a printf function, but maybe it doesn't.
< 1567155924 105981 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: either it has one, or if not, you can make one with the custom stream glibc interface, I don't recall which
< 1567155937 646670 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall what APR has instead
< 1567155951 845596 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see
< 1567156002 183180 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_mono/libc.html#Custom-Streams  glibc C FILE streams with custom read/write callbacks; C++ streams and rust streams and python streams and perl streams have their own variants (perl has like three different mechanisms I think)
< 1567156059 822378 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_mono/libc.html#Dynamic-Output  has obstack_printf 
< 1567156080 470552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right.
< 1567156172 369386 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :glibc scanf has an "a" modifier that does malloc, as in "%as" or "%a[...]", which is why I think it's a mistake for C99 to have specified "%a" as equivalent to "%g" in scanf, because the glibc use is way older,
< 1567156194 515037 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in practice you can't actually use "%a" on glibc because glibc interprets it the old way, but I don't think anyone uses it anyway
< 1567156209 686824 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just silly of C99, they are usually more careful avoiding clashes
< 1567156232 711211 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's different with clashes where neither clearly precedes the other of course, such as the two uses of "clog" 
< 1567156303 480038 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"remove" also clashes, but that's the same problem that the Unhinged Erase card parodies, we basically have only a few synonyms (remove, erase, delete) and a ton of functions that you try to name that way
< 1567156333 299344 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the nice things about Xlib is that it knows three property formats: 8, which is chars, 16, which is shorts, and 32, which is longs.
< 1567156354 427270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if your long is 64-bit, you get an actual_format integer equal to 32.
< 1567156635 503003 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know very little about Xlib, and don't expect to have to learn more either, luckily
< 1567156646 331372 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use higher-level libraries or programs abstracting it way deep
< 1567156663 727578 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was one case when I wanted to find out whether a certain functionality is available from Xlib, but I found a workaround instead
< 1567156710 528563 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely asking the X server to change the current virtual terminal to a different one (from the one where X lives), which X can do because it does so for keyboard shortcuts, and it's one ioctl for them anyway, but I wanted to know how to ask it to do so programmatically
< 1567157674 865824 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567157892 568952 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1567158092 285166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Uyjhmn n14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65787&oldid=61934 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10OH NOOOOOOOOOO!!! THIS MUST BE THE WORK OF AN ENEMY STAND! D:
> 1567158359 363571 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Uyjhmn n14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65788&oldid=54422 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+66) 10Adding category because truttle1 forgot to add categories.
> 1567158659 920509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65789 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+106) 10Created page with "this is my sandbox page in which i use to draft some w.i.p stuff and experiment with these. ==some stuff=="
< 1567158694 336338 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567158885 852479 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1567158983 252592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65790&oldid=14574 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+249) 10/* I'd like to implement, but isn't it pretty difficult to implement its parse? */ new section
> 1567159569 42128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65791&oldid=65785 5* 03A 5* (+273) 10/* Sets */
< 1567160045 481858 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567160091 113844 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65792&oldid=62914 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10/* Point */
> 1567160169 565409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65793&oldid=65792 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10moving the infobox to the top, yare yare daze.
> 1567160217 426168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65794&oldid=65595 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-4137) 10Do i have any reason to blank this page!?
> 1567160460 434895 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65795&oldid=65794 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+5646) 10testing the ASCII art. joseph joestar picture and quotes are used.
> 1567160511 156973 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65796&oldid=65795 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+907) 10
> 1567160538 253913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65797&oldid=65796 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-6553) 10blanking. Arigato, Gyro.
< 1567160624 825481 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
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< 1567160629 833525 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 QUIT :*.net *.split
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< 1567160644 253646 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567160660 475052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65798&oldid=65789 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+19) 10/* some stuff */
< 1567160667 813316 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160688 151077 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160736 832103 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@c-174-53-70-27.hsd1.wv.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160739 236226 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@c-174-53-70-27.hsd1.wv.comcast.net NICK :Guest24768
< 1567160745 848159 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood
> 1567160766 347897 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65799&oldid=65793 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+18) 10NANI!? A year category!?!?
< 1567160784 112787 :sftp_!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160826 772188 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160835 185264 :sftp_!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp NICK :sftp
< 1567160899 416484 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160934 283253 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160962 346989 :jix!~jix@209.250.235.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160963 336827 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160974 692232 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567160992 401483 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567160999 142082 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65800&oldid=65798 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+109) 10Yare yare daze
> 1567161013 549875 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65801&oldid=65800 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10
< 1567161046 597634 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jpffqrshvbcalhfv JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567161342 999875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard that Objective C implements "blocks" with operating system support for some reason.
< 1567161353 505562 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that true? What's the thing they need it for?
< 1567161406 824593 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1567161493 918724 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they connected to some user-space threading mechanism?
< 1567161544 403888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not I don't really see why OS support would be needed... or helpful. But who knows what Apple's doing.
< 1567161628 542926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be something comparatively trivial like a hot zone.
< 1567161751 871292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( I've heard that INTERCAL implements 'come from' with OS support... )
< 1567161776 338083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so easy to make up rumors.
< 1567161806 806837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly possible I misunderstood.
< 1567161907 631761 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh the thing with these claims is that they require serious research to refute, unlikely as they seem.
< 1567161982 674761 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you mean like by allocating executable areas or using an executable stacks to make closure stubs?
< 1567162024 400303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know.
< 1567162070 271746 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the intercal one is easier to believe
< 1567162091 940709 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an esoteric language, so it may have esoteric implementation strategies
< 1567162103 690851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering whether someone would already know, not asking people to do research for me, of course.
< 1567162179 871267 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know a few things that are surprisingly implemented with OS support:
< 1567162208 206249 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of libcoro's backend uses sigaltstack to set up stacks for newly created contexts in a somewhat portable way;
< 1567162274 704416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows has some neat OS support for userspace threading (though I think it doesn't go far enough).
< 1567162305 900978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It lets you transfer control to your scheduler when a thread blocks on a system call or page fault.
< 1567162341 670691 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is OS support to implement some atomic stuff, in the form of asking the OS set set some user-space flag if the OS context switches the process when some other user-space flag says that you're in some critical instruction sequence; this helps for single-processor systems on certain old processors that don't have cpu-supported atomic instructio
< 1567162342 64620 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ns,
< 1567162354 475140 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these days I think they found a new modern use for it, I don't really recall what
< 1567162626 800097 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sorry for all the negativity though. I'm mostly trying to convince myself that I shouldn't spend time going down this particular rabbit hole.
< 1567162699 332101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I saw this claim repeated a bunch of times in the past but now I can't find any references to it.
< 1567162734 812671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's the multi-core scheduling ("Dispatch") that I'm thinking of, though that seems like a different feature.
< 1567162779 395700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just too open-ended a question. There's a wide range of "OS support" ranging from a trivial system call (say something that fuses two other system calls that happen to occur together a lot) to special scheduler and memory system support for who-knows-what.
< 1567162841 3612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your best bet is to find somebody who knows and I'm not that person :)
< 1567162844 904836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! I'm not asking you to invent or research plausible answers.
< 1567162850 41591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't even asking you at all.
< 1567162869 280165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought maybe typing the question in this channel would be a way to find somebody who knows.
< 1567162887 440634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, as I tried to explain, I'm susceptible to going down those trails... wasting a lot of time.
< 1567162901 986457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My fault really, not yours. You're just a fairly effective trigger.
< 1567162971 181747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Without trying to be, I believe.)
< 1567162978 401984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, I see.
< 1567163083 501020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I'm in the int-e fan club.
< 1567164486 223940 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567164931 92707 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567165053 454382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: speaking of wasting time, did you ever finish any of those pillars in The Witless?
< 1567165089 613066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've had the misfortune of starting that game up again last weekend. But no, no completed pillar yet.)
< 1567165153 350090 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567165964 391465 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567167504 828420 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functors adhere to a set of equational laws, so I have to imagine that they're algebraic structures in the sense of universal algebra. I also have to imagine that if I ask #haskell if they're ever studied this way, category theory will immediately come up, and won't go away.
< 1567167559 315697 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: category theory may come up if you ask here as well
< 1567167565 424670 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monad
< 1567167566 682919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
< 1567167797 949360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567167829 942159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL doesn't make use of any particular OS support, and I don't think CLC-INTERCAL does either (and am more certain that J-INTERCAL doesn't)
< 1567167923 325452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: functors are one of the building blocks of category theory; arguably the entire reason category theory was invented was to rigorously define "natural transformation" and those have functors as inputs and outputs, thus functors are kind-of a big deal in category theory
< 1567167965 353301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :futexes are a good example of something that benefits from OS support, but they're only really of use in multithreaded programs
< 1567167967 22410 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the relationship to haskell Functors?
< 1567167989 674969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k Functor
< 1567167991 509722 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* -> *) -> Constraint
< 1567168007 444201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how Haskell functors work
< 1567168025 800244 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Functor
< 1567168026 123523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Functor f where
< 1567168026 159705 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :    fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
< 1567168028 870991 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@info Functor
< 1567168029 149924 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor
< 1567168122 435200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you pass a category-theoretic functor through curry-howard, you basically end up with a function f from types to types, that lets you map from an expression that takes type A and has a free variable list of type B, to an expressioin that takes type f(A) andd has a free variable list of type f(B)
< 1567168138 695089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Haskell definition seems very close to that, it's just using lambdas rather than free variables
< 1567168172 778725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the only reason the category-theoretic definition uses free variables is that there's no guarantee that function types actually exist in any given category, and in fact the input and output of a functor can belong to different categories)
< 1567168394 360813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… different categories correspond to different programming languages under curry-howard
< 1567168411 75606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means that in theory, an fmap should be able to lift a function from one programming language into another
< 1567168435 286052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can imagine a Haskell Functor such that f a is a Haskell type when a is, say, a Perl type
< 1567168440 458181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then fmap takes a Perl function and compiles it into the corresponding Haskell function
< 1567168482 764306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567168495 866189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567168497 952127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monad
< 1567168499 235729 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
< 1567168546 245632 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567168825 590345 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I look at it purely algebraically, a functor is a unary operation on a monoid that preserves identity and distributes over composition.
< 1567168941 579442 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, like, ... toupper(string) is a functor?
< 1567168986 849586 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :toupper("H" .. "i") = toupper("H") .. toupper("i")
< 1567169076 747947 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course, toupper("") = ""
> 1567169123 853680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65802&oldid=63833 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+0) 10
< 1567169302 581587 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the same token, monads must be algebraic structures of some kind, but their laws involve more machinery, so I thought I'd take a stab at functors first.
< 1567169403 290668 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567169413 507816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: something that confuses me when doing this, and confuses a lot of other people too, is that there are more levels of abstraction here than intuitively seems reasonable and it's easy to pick the wrong one
< 1567169466 91298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :toupper isn't a functor because functors act at the type level (they operate on types, and lift functions between those types in a map-like way)
< 1567169472 48917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas toupper is a function that acts at the value level
< 1567169484 371578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason it's confusing is that all these various levels of abstraction look much the same, despite having subtle differences
< 1567169582 43935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get annoyed doing category theory because my intuition nearly always ends up picking the wrong level of abstraction
< 1567169598 535650 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no "types" in universal algebra, though.
< 1567169618 104923 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there can be, you can introduce "sorts", but you're not required to.
< 1567169643 722787 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing in the algebraic definition of a functor seems to require sorts.
< 1567169771 881757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you declare what's a valid input to your functor, then?
< 1567169775 683730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :toupper(6) isn't valid
< 1567169822 502698 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're working with group theory, how do you declare what's a valid element of your group?
< 1567169823 978930 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? toupper(6) is totally valid, and its result is usually 6, depending on the locale
< 1567169849 496891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: this is the sort of problem that category theory is actually designed to solve
< 1567169873 53572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes all these "how do we define the domain of this?" problems and makes them explicit
< 1567169889 726529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the case of groups as seen by category theory, a group is a category with one object
< 1567169895 133596 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... toupper acts on a string? no way, that directly contradicts to the C standard. it acts on a character.
< 1567169904 110688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: cpressey's toupper apparently does
< 1567169953 417438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the objects in category theory basically act as types for the arrows
< 1567169959 695562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so category theory says that in group theory, all values have the same type
< 1567169962 196040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which makes sense)
< 1567169993 857354 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm completely confused. I can't see how it's a "problem" to be solved.
< 1567170004 22415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, functors can act on any type that exists in the language, by definition; I guess toupper on a group of strings under concatenation therefore actually is a functor, because there's only one type to map and it supports that type
< 1567170118 329829 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a monoid, you can define a functor on that monoid. In the toupper example, I picked a monoid of strings. Didn't give details, assumed people would understand strings, like you'd find in formal language theory and such.
< 1567170119 832649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I guess my issue here is the "on a monoid" within "If I look at it purely algebraically, a functor is a unary operation on a monoid that preserves identity and distributes over composition."
< 1567170129 83035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :functor are more general than that, you can define them even on things that aren't monoids
< 1567170134 893583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*functors
< 1567170149 32788 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; >tmp/a.c echo $'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { printf("toupper(8) = %d\n", toupper(8)); return 0; }'; gcc -Wall -O -o tmp/a.out tmp/a.c; tmp/a.out
< 1567170150 346437 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :toupper(8) = 8
< 1567170168 525567 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You might be able to define them on semigroups. That seems to be hair-splitting a bit though?
< 1567170184 240882 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do need to define them on something that has a concept of composition.
< 1567170188 70069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's not hair-splitting at all; Functor in Haskell us /usually/ defined on things that are much more general than either monoids or semigroups
< 1567170209 140572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. List is a functor in Haskell
< 1567170217 577862 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A list is a monoid
< 1567170243 985951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a specific /type/ of list is a monoid
< 1567170254 224547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't do, say, [1] ++ ["a"]
< 1567170276 263102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :List, the actual concept devoid of any specific/concrete element type, is a functor
< 1567170336 724644 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Every kind of list you can define in Haskell is a monoid.
< 1567170399 593216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that isn't relelvant here; your definition of "a functor is a unary operation on a monoid that preserves identity and distributes over composition." doesn't apply to any specific type of list because the type of list is a monoid in its own right, not a unary operation on a monoid
< 1567170456 824171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps less confusing as an example: Haskell's Maybe is a functor, but as far as I can tell it isn't a monoid and neither is a typical concrete type of Maybe such as Maybe Bool
< 1567170499 847855 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How is fmap defined for Maybe?
< 1567170533 360265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: fmap f Nothing = Nothing; fmap f (Just x) = Just (f x)
< 1567170628 365694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this operation is actually called "map" in both Java's and Rust's versions of Maybe)
< 1567170743 258565 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567170790 180196 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, I don't know what to say. I don't agree that what I'm talking about has anything to do with Haskell, but your objections seem to be based on that my statements don't make sense in the context of Haskell
< 1567170815 196830 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Maybe Functor
< 1567170815 459917 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
< 1567170818 328761 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Functor Maybe
< 1567170818 683313 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
< 1567170822 63105 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src fmap Maybe
< 1567170822 364653 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
< 1567170825 642596 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Maybe fmap
< 1567170826 119763 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap _ Nothing  = Nothing
< 1567170826 242248 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap f (Just a) = Just (f a)
< 1567170873 132788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think your definition of a functor is remotely related to my definition of a functor
< 1567170885 741769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be an extreme special case but it's missing the general case
< 1567170896 995435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the general case requires category theory to define
< 1567170926 524419 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll note that Haskell's Maybe *is* a Semigroup
< 1567170932 548188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell doesn't actually get all that close to the general case, but its version is more general than yours and so it makes for easy examples
< 1567170951 26426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My version doesn't have types, and this makes it *less* general somehow?
< 1567171003 858901 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my version is less general, it's because I went with monoid instead of semigroup. I'm happy to backpedal on that.
< 1567171007 838524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, because you're requiring everything that your functors apply to everything that exists in the universe of discussion, which is a major restriction
< 1567171066 704968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existence of types makes things more general because it allows functors to specify how they behave when multiple different types are in use
< 1567171079 977451 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Types are useful when you have types"
< 1567171144 283451 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, are you assuming I'm talking about programming? I'm not.
< 1567171158 368459 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1567171170 324124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm using programming terminology though because I assumed that category-theoretic terminology wouldn't be understood
< 1567171190 143718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent that things other than programming are interesting, types are useful outside of programming too
< 1567171343 387334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… if we restrict ourself to one category and one object, we end up with a semigroup (as you say), and then the category-theoretical definition of "functor" collapses to "function on semigroup elements that preserves identity and preserves composition", which is your definition
< 1567171347 59036 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without types, you end up trying to less-than compare a set of points to a 3xn matrix of complex numbers, or water your 
< 1567171355 920599 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or microwave a kitten,
< 1567171374 801739 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you won't notice that you shouldn't do those things until you get a runtime exception such as the cat dying
< 1567171384 767411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think microwaving a kitten is a type error, it's a bad idea for other reasons though
< 1567171401 307263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567171454 686209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: let me see if I can explain why functors are more general than the semigroup definition: suppose you have two /different/, unrelated, semigroups; but it's possible to define a map from one to the other which preserves identity and preserves composition
< 1567171473 164101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still a functor
< 1567171495 77421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are two generalisations from your definition to the full category-theoretical definition; Haskell generalises it in one dimension, the above example is the generalisation along the other dimensioin)
< 1567171501 49482 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give a more concrete example for that?
< 1567171525 169341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the simplest example is the degenerate map which maps everything from the first semigroup to the identity element of the second semigroup
< 1567171565 504316 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but... that doesn't really answer cpressey's question
< 1567171609 150920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm trying to answer the question "My version doesn't have types, and this makes it *less* general somehow?", by explaining one way in which the category-theoretical definition is more general than cpressey's is
< 1567171642 498834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of more useful examples, e.g. there's a functor from the integers-plus-addition to the (integers mod 7)-plus-addition
< 1567171645 22331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that simply takes the value mod 7
< 1567171660 990578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :preserves identity, preserves composition, it's useful to have a name for this sort of operation
< 1567171676 179167 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that called a monomorphism?
< 1567171679 455161 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567171682 984715 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a homomorphism
< 1567171687 105241 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it a homomorphism
< 1567171695 815735 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought functor was something other than that
< 1567171740 576294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well, yes, a functor is more general
< 1567171747 389349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm
< 1567171752 541541 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean more general
< 1567171754 47673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a homomorphism /between semigroups/ is a type of functor
< 1567171758 728595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't true for things other than semigroups, though
< 1567171763 300475 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought homomorphisms just weren't functors
< 1567171784 889441 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think I understand what a functor is
< 1567171832 302844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see… in a category, you have objects and arrows (with each object having an identity arrow, and arrows composing)
< 1567171861 474023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, in the category representing a semigroup, there's only one object, its identity arrow is the semigroup's identity, and more generally arrows are elements
< 1567171904 683128 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I am still at a loss why your "more general" definition of functor, rejects that toupper() is a functor, while my "less general" defintion accepts that toupper() is a functor, as well as accepting all of your examples are functors as well.
< 1567171917 756529 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aren't the categories with arrows between supposed to be a generalization of algebraic structures with homomorphisms between?
< 1567171931 952663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a functor is a map between categories from objects to objects and arrows to arrows that preserves identity and composition
< 1567171932 690727 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a "category representing a semigroup" then?
< 1567171981 373558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it turns out that it doesn't reject that toupper is a functor, as long as your source and target categories are very limited (specifically they both have to be the semigroup category of strings under concatenation)
< 1567171991 671279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: a category with one object is equivalent to a semigroup
< 1567172016 445255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I just hadn't realised you were considering such a limited universeof objects
< 1567172019 4535 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, *I'm not thinking in category theory terms*.
< 1567172044 793699 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567172070 683064 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's one object, plus an arrow for each element of the semigroup, and the arrows compose by the semigroup operation?
< 1567172078 699167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right
< 1567172100 991054 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's like the object with the internal morphisms
< 1567172105 359482 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense
< 1567172122 57111 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no
< 1567172123 220854 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite
< 1567172140 840828 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ok
< 1567172148 853203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in this case I guess you have a valid definition of a special case of a functor (specifically, the case when you're only considering a single semigroup); and if you were working in other settings, the same more general definition could be used to provide a special-case definition for those settings too
< 1567172185 72954 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that is more or less how abstract algebra works? The thing I said about group theory, remember.
< 1567172215 735014 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is usually no assumption that there are multiple kinds of objects you have to distinguish
< 1567172235 717243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Algebraic structures, with their associated homomorphisms, form mathematical categories. Category theory is a formalism that allows a unified way for expressing properties and constructions that are similar for various structures. 
< 1567172258 782676 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And therefore we *must* analyze them with the tools of category theory
< 1567172263 564550 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No thanks.
< 1567172282 994895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more, category theory is the tool that mathematicians use to specify how the various algebraic structures of abstract algebra relate to each other
< 1567172379 641151 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is *the* paradigm, can't escape it, huh.
< 1567172387 746752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience with category theory is that it's more or less impossible to do anything in abstract algebra that doesn't have a category-theoretical interpretation, and that is typically the most general possible interpretation; whether you actually want to think on that level or not is up to you, and it often isn't useful to do so
< 1567172404 934115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly only useful when you use it to take a proof from one area of mathematics and use it to prove a theorem in another
< 1567172493 692963 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I didn't give the impression that that was what I was aiming to do, because it wasn't.
< 1567172624 768805 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567172646 238169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I thought you were interested in learning about what functors were in general
< 1567172720 149190 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Functors adhere to a set of equational laws, so I have to imagine that they're algebraic structures in the sense of universal algebra. I also have to imagine that if I ask #haskell if they're ever studied this way, category theory will immediately come up, and won't go away."
< 1567172739 478966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, I had no way of knowing that you were thinking of the definition as specialised to semigroups as the specific definition you were concentrating on, as opposed to merely being an example of the general definition
> 1567172754 66074 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MUSYS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65803&oldid=65330 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+189) 10Some new examples for an old language. I've started working on a simulator.
< 1567172761 962495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how you got "in general" from "in universal algebra".
< 1567172793 793053 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even what "in general" means, in this context, to you.
< 1567172820 954835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise you were considering a special case; "functor", to me, refers only to the general case
< 1567172835 411752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing in your statement that suggests that you have a specific special case of functors in mind
< 1567172849 126233 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is rather frustrating.
< 1567172858 847013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mention of #haskell increased the chance that you were thinking of a definition that's at least as general as Haskell's
< 1567172899 687088 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap id = id; fmap (f . g) = (fmap f) . (fmap g)
< 1567172964 592394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pointed out toupper() conforms to these laws; you said it's not a functor; then later you admitted, okay, it can be a functor.
< 1567172980 191363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are /three/ Functor laws in Haskell
< 1567173018 920802 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better update https://wiki.haskell.org/Functor then
< 1567173019 53630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't comply with the third, which is fmap :: forall a b. (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
< 1567173074 306059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that Haskell enforces that one by the compiler rather than making the user check that it applies manually, so it doesn't have to be written in a comment
< 1567173138 489003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the reason toupper is a functor on the semigroup of strings, even though it isn't a functor in Haskell, is that the semigroup of strings only has one type – strings – and we have f String = String and forall a b. a = String && b = String
< 1567173175 612495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in Haskell, "f" has to be a type constructor and there's no type constructor f for which f String = String, also it's not true that forall a. a = String because Haskell has other types
< 1567173223 164375 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell has types. It sure does.
< 1567173249 642277 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has kinds, too!
< 1567173305 374676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to go correct that wiki page anyway; Haskell's Functor is not a general representation of mathematical functors, it is specialised to the case in which the type-level mapping is a type-level constructor (rather than a type-level function that isn't a type constructor)
< 1567173392 514911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's also specialised to categories whose objects are Haskell types, but given that it's being imlpemented in Haskell, that's forgivable)
< 1567173867 768674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sorry if I annoyed you by the way; I'm really tired at the moment and that makes it harder for me to predict how my actions will affect other people emotionally
< 1567174041 586252 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1567175564 312989 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1567175644 683129 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but isn't that limitation solved in a ghc extension, as in type families?
< 1567175664 570371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567176846 367094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1567178132 741249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65804&oldid=65163 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+106) 10
> 1567178190 205239 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ArrowFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65805&oldid=62003 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+60) 10+CATs
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> 1567179858 381695 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ntrupin 5*  10New user account
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> 1567180504 572403 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03EdgyNerd 5*  10New user account
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< 1567191087 770991 :choochter!choochter@nat/ibm/x-doeoartqzajuugyf JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567191469 677294 :choochter!choochter@nat/ibm/x-doeoartqzajuugyf QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567191642 465814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I haven't played that game in a long time.
< 1567191652 165327 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I completed any pillars? I don't remember.
< 1567192412 59991 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d9ea:bffd:bcdc:d7fb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567193988 510497 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
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< 1567194751 846048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, long conversation about functors.
< 1567194764 440235 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like mostly people talking past each other?
< 1567194785 597211 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d9ea:bffd:bcdc:d7fb QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567194921 586647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monoid homomorphism is clearly a special case of a functor, and so is Haskell's Functor class.
< 1567194941 865517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's all the argumentationing about?
< 1567195343 981104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe *is* a functor, but it's a functor "on" Haskell functions, in the usage above.
< 1567195373 753696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason the "on a monoid" isn't general enough is that Haskell functions aren't a monoid because you have different types so you can't compose any arbitrary functions.
< 1567195439 401878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas «[1] ++ ["a"]» is a red herring because that's not the functor operation that's being discussed ([Int] and [String] are both monoids, separately, and there are no type issues there).
< 1567195453 430951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether cpressey logreads.
< 1567196013 773495 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is back from surgery and feeling good.
< 1567196165 972903 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:cd1b:9f20:11cb:75b JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567196289 427085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :higan mchelloister
< 1567196300 975394 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:11f0:b98e:d29b:84d8 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567196357 989242 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567196394 91160 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf ben-kikello
< 1567196437 995113 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:cd1b:9f20:11cb:75b QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1567197616 73774 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1567200732 258685 :pikhq_!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: congrats on surgery
< 1567200811 28441 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty
< 1567201057 968889 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567201155 970505 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jpffqrshvbcalhfv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567201821 43354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is now a surgically-enhanced superhuman
< 1567201906 407235 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that
< 1567201972 19399 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you do double damage now
< 1567201973 944622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=333
< 1567202471 489081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm glowing blue and quad damage
< 1567204503 876779 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
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< 1567218714 235256 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567220515 100259 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of a block format for encrypted communications, which could detect tampering and a few other stuff. Each variable size block has a header of four bytes, and then the data of that block. It is possible to transmit only part of a block at once and not the entire block. Also, this is separate from the block used in a block cipher.
< 1567220582 423897 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The header would be:  [1] Checksum of all previous block data  [2] Sequence number  [3] Meaningless data  [4] Block data length
< 1567220675 621618 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, right at the beginning instead you will have a special block, which has a data length, random data of that length, and the verification code (which is digitally signed).
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> 1567225977 737365 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65806&oldid=65801 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+176) 10
> 1567226129 398970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65807&oldid=65806 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+10) 10
> 1567226276 26544 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65808&oldid=65807 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10/* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
> 1567226559 318649 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65809&oldid=65808 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+19) 10/* commands */
> 1567226662 221983 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65810&oldid=65809 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+6) 10/* commands */
> 1567227111 945555 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65811&oldid=65810 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1198) 10/* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
< 1567235950 907012 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:11f0:b98e:d29b:84d8 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1567236472 91629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65812&oldid=65811 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+45) 10/* commands */
> 1567236659 923746 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65813&oldid=65812 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+8) 10/* commands */
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> 1567236807 330841 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65815&oldid=65814 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+9) 10/* commands */
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> 1567243634 441853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65820&oldid=65797 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+29) 10Kono dio da!
> 1567243694 353152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65821&oldid=65819 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+19) 10/* examples */
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> 1567244057 873167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65822&oldid=65821 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+142) 10
> 1567244937 109613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65823&oldid=65822 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+141) 10/* commands */
> 1567245246 252998 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Madbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65824&oldid=58616 5* 03Gamer 5* (-10) 10/* Hello, World! */
< 1567245493 318160 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567245685 238851 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65825&oldid=65530 5* 03A 5* (-7) 10/* Normal implementations */
> 1567245814 155134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ecndpcaalrlp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65826&oldid=61359 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* Implementation */ Delete my GH repositories
> 1567245899 433137 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Madbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65827&oldid=65824 5* 03Gamer 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1567245900 381748 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65828&oldid=65823 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+101) 10/* commands */
> 1567245920 585154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Madbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65829&oldid=65827 5* 03Gamer 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1567246025 515114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65830&oldid=65828 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+77) 10
> 1567246086 557665 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65831&oldid=65830 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+25) 10/* commands */
> 1567246258 268547 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65832&oldid=65831 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+15) 10/* conditional functions */
> 1567246385 59585 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Dtuser1337 5*  10moved [[02User:Dtuser1337/sandbox10]] to [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]: Making these "S" uppercase
> 1567246578 720010 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65835&oldid=44559 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-46) 10Blanking without reason.
> 1567247242 621125 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Madbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65836&oldid=65829 5* 03Gamer 5* (-56) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1567247616 762249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Madbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65837&oldid=65836 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Implementation (Python) */
< 1567247728 199171 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567247809 318741 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567248943 258868 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567249313 370617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Piet++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65838&oldid=58418 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+27) 10I used my stand [Za Hando] to add a new category :D
> 1567250468 99842 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65839&oldid=65791 5* 03A 5* (+167) 10
< 1567252453 273469 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567254990 35375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hideous daystar is confusing my thermometer. it says that it's 62°C outdoors, which is definitely false
< 1567255012 351869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's nowhere I can place it here such that it never gets in direct sunshine
< 1567255024 592138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the apartment doesn't have windows facing in other directions
< 1567255524 283639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08-29.html#lqf , yes, the dubbing of the Harry Potter movie is changed between the british and american releases to adjust for "Sorcerer's" vs "Philosopher's" in the dialogs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAniYhY_a24
< 1567255564 986335 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567255837 993730 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567256106 962656 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567256701 270121 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567257026 526985 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
> 1567257249 398381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65840&oldid=65833 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+87) 10/* commands */
> 1567257423 808776 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65841&oldid=65840 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+15) 10/* conditional functions */
> 1567257643 463024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65842&oldid=65841 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+133) 10/* commands */
> 1567258353 212145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65843&oldid=65842 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+77) 10/* commands */
> 1567261079 807928 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65844&oldid=65820 5* 03A 5* (+25) 10
> 1567261109 764420 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65845&oldid=65835 5* 03A 5* (+49) 10Talk page is also a sandbox
< 1567262074 996748 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567262349 977469 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1567262435 646358 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65846&oldid=65839 5* 03A 5* (-749) 10
> 1567262553 544859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65847&oldid=65846 5* 03A 5* (+38) 10
< 1567262581 161319 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567264893 966647 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567266233 592890 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
< 1567266251 386479 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567266452 84803 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567267645 412278 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567268626 244270 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567268626 321825 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host
< 1567268626 321894 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567268658 668609 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567269604 101068 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567270001 976491 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567270137 803142 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567270153 513757 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567271060 287343 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-106-184-179.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567271303 681780 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567273274 933232 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ow… At least the thermometer doesn’t overflow
< 1567273309 979517 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567273425 263037 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567273439 514831 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567273441 321882 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we here have an unusually cold weather, it should be 7…12° tomorrow. I’d hoped for twenties still, it’s mid-September when it should be becoming sufficiently chiller (and then, only worse)
< 1567273474 73357 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it will, hopefully there would be a handful of warm days still, but not this week?)
> 1567273476 560517 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65848&oldid=65825 5* 03Total Vacuum 5* (+91) 10
< 1567273500 457530 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :°C
< 1567273511 824027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.
< 1567274650 524665 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567275688 100729 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567276948 598996 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567277960 263051 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567278430 444954 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567278646 235637 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567279198 167463 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One possible substitute for adding a driver in Ghostscript might be to make a "pseudo-driver" by writing PostScript codes to override some of the operators for making output.
< 1567279920 472545 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567281673 866571 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567284012 170776 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567284073 283922 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567284187 229111 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1567284322 392179 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567284348 272288 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567285064 645779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"RESOLVED:  ARB_vertex_program.  DirectX 8 refers to its similar
< 1567285064 740740 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :      functionality as "vertex shaders".  This is a confusing term because
< 1567285064 740803 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :      shaders are usually assumed to operate at the fragment or pixel level,
< 1567285064 740816 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :      not the vertex level."
< 1567285111 240231 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always heard them called vertex shaders in opengl
< 1567285174 753663 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I think this is an extension from before that was a thing, introducing the concept to OpenGL to the first time
< 1567285211 25523 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL/extensions/ARB/ARB_vertex_program.txt
< 1567285230 332543 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...there's also an incompatible extension called EXT_vertex_shader that this competed with
< 1567285747 978305 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at WineD3D's OpenGL calls and being utterly perplexed that it's using this
< 1567286005 225165 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567286047 336875 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567286285 880646 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the PostScript XUID organization code for UUID?
< 1567286388 14344 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bsuqvwxztnmayouu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567289708 869849 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567289728 316527 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this code esoteric enough?
< 1567289748 950088 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :d l r o w  o l l e H 
< 1567289770 852115 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What programming language is it?
< 1567289776 270549 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own
< 1567289785 310214 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1567289830 310905 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :d l r o w  o l l e H           
< 1567289962 344274 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the riight number of "character outputs"?
< 1567289967 345177 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It look like it can be a stack based program language maybe. (But, if you want to write on wiki then you can.)
< 1567290010 729526 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't
< 1567290020 936006 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1567290044 643054 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :just discussing it
< 1567290074 413126 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1567290250 217053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: is that like unlambda ```````````.H.e.l.l.o. .w.o.r.l.di but backwards?
< 1567290341 739382 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure
> 1567290375 913370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PLEASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65849&oldid=55992 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+14) 10Turing-Completeness unknown
> 1567291220 343563 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65850&oldid=65599 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+297) 10PostScript
< 1567291326 336616 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567291578 293133 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.3.214.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567292085 513548 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567293709 879266 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567295999 993909 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric