←2019-10-05 2019-10-06 2019-10-07→ ↑2019 ↑all
00:11:56 <kmc> did you know that 'pink' is also named after a flower?
00:12:00 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianthus_plumarius
00:12:31 <kmc> at least accoring to some
00:12:36 <kmc> as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinking_shears
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01:49:30 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66478&oldid=66468 * TwilightSparkle * (+4217) /* Examples */
01:57:33 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66479&oldid=66478 * TwilightSparkle * (-50)
02:00:17 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66480&oldid=66479 * TwilightSparkle * (+17) /* Constants */
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02:20:22 <oerjan> `hurl bin/8ball
02:20:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/8ball
02:20:59 <oerjan> hum that's the wrong one
02:23:52 * pikhq waves
02:24:11 <oerjan> hello pikhq
02:24:18 <pikhq> What a day, what a day
02:24:44 <oerjan> i'm not uplogged yet
02:24:59 <pikhq> oic
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03:00:11 <oerjan> now i am
03:06:51 <pikhq> ic
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03:14:01 <oerjan> i note that personal pronouns were involved both here and in the current stackexchange clusterfuck
03:15:55 <oerjan> `? them
03:15:57 <HackEso> them? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:16:09 <oerjan> `wisdom them
03:16:11 <HackEso> the them//Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
03:17:03 * oerjan carefully sidles away from his own brain
03:19:17 * pikhq notes that personal pronouns tend to be, well, important to people
03:19:35 * oerjan agrees with qwwem
03:21:19 <pikhq> Who?
03:21:28 <oerjan> with you
03:21:33 <pikhq> -_-
03:22:27 * oerjan may not have sidled far enough
03:22:58 <pikhq> Let's just say that was rather rude of you and leave it at that
03:23:43 <oerjan> my brain has trouble thinking of pronouns seriously now
03:26:45 <oerjan> but i've been half thinking that the sane long-term solution for english is for everyone to standardize on they/them/their, which make your protest against it sort of a mind whiplash. although i can understand how it can still be rude if someone uses it _only_ for non-cis gendered people
03:26:56 <oerjan> *makes
03:28:06 <kmc> yeah
03:28:22 <kmc> that is the main case where 'they' would bother me
03:28:30 <pikhq> ^
03:28:39 <zzo38> I sometimes use "they" for anyone, regardless of who they are, anyways
03:28:53 <kmc> i think i'd be okay with someone who used 'they' for everyone
03:29:03 <kmc> although the last time this actually came up, I was not okay with it
03:29:04 <pikhq> Really a matter of context making me go "uuuuh"
03:29:19 <kmc> but that's for complicated reasons arising from personal trauma and i wasn't really being fair to that person anyway
03:31:12 <kmc> it took me a long time to accept that it's okay to think in principle that gender is stupid and should go away, and yet to be assertive about my own gender identity
03:31:20 <kmc> it's one of those ideal world vs real world things
03:32:28 <kmc> the whole thing has been really humbling as far as learning what i can and can't change about myself
03:33:05 <kmc> transitioning is a huge change but it's something we do because we *can't* change who we really are
03:33:40 <pikhq> At a certain point you just get done pretending to be someone else.
03:33:45 <kmc> yeah
03:34:17 <kmc> I think most trans people would much prefer to take a magic pill that makes you happy with your birth gender, but it doesn't exist
03:34:38 <kmc> I don't think I would take that pill, personally
03:34:53 <kmc> (which ironically? makes me "fake trans" to a lot of people, because they can only see this experience through the lens of misery)
03:35:04 <pikhq> It sounds easier. But at the same time, that's a radical change in who you are as a person.
03:35:05 <kmc> i mean for one I think that pill would have to change my personality a whole lot
03:35:15 <kmc> and also well, being trans /is/ very interesting
03:35:33 <kmc> and like I'm in a pretty good position to transition compared to most
03:35:51 <kmc> and I'm some sort of extreme neophile
03:35:53 <kmc> and i've always been a transhumanist
03:36:10 * pikhq is honestly a big ol' scaredy cat :P
03:36:18 <kmc> lol
03:36:19 <kmc> I'm both
03:36:29 <kmc> like, it was really hard for me to start making permanent changes to my body
03:36:34 <kmc> which is v. ironic
03:36:44 <zzo38> Sometimes it isn't clear if you mean singular or plural, so then you shouldn't use "they" (or sometimes also "you", which is also grammatically plural but can also be used singular).
03:36:55 <pikhq> Y'know what's hard? _Shopping_.
03:37:19 <pikhq> zzo38: In such a case it's probably simplest to just rephrase to avoid the use of a pronoun.
03:37:24 <zzo38> (Fortunately, Wizards of the Coast considered that ambiguity when making that change in Magic: the Gathering, so that the ambiguity is avoided.)
03:37:31 <pikhq> Said cases aren't very common, but that's basic writing, ain't it?
03:37:47 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is correct, and is what is done in Magic: the Gathering in those few cases.
03:37:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66481 * A * (+1149) Created page with "== Brachylog is not a declarative language == Since Brachylog and Prolog are based on similar paradigms, this proof demonstrates that Prolog is technically not a declarative l..."
03:38:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66482&oldid=66481 * A * (+31) /* Brachylog is not a declarative language */
03:38:16 <zzo38> (Although there are different ways of doing so. The rules for Magic: the Gathering say "that player" is used if "they" is ambiguous.)
03:38:35 <pikhq> Reasonable within that context.
03:38:43 <zzo38> Yes, in that context, it is reasonable.
03:38:49 <zzo38> In other contexts, there is other ways.
03:39:05 <pikhq> e.g. if it's ambiguous in other cases you can just use someone's name.
03:39:27 <pikhq> Like you would if there's multiple "he"s or "she"s and you need to be clear who you're talking about.
03:39:35 <zzo38> Yes, in the cases where their name is known (and not itself ambiguous, which in rare cases it can be).
03:39:46 <pikhq> Language!
03:39:56 <pikhq> Always so fuzzy around the edges
03:41:24 <zzo38> I have no problem with singular "they", but I don't like singular "themselves". (The singular should be "themself", like for "you", it will be "yourself" as singular rather than "yourselves", I think.)
03:42:10 <pikhq> I think the jury's out on which one is the grammatical one there.
03:42:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, those language always so fuzzy around the edges, is also one of the reason why I don't like Inform7 so much, and also a reason for why I have thought to have a AST-based format for the effect of Magic: the Gathering cards.
03:43:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, people use both, although I personally don't like to write "themselves" if it is singular.
03:43:36 * pikhq shrugs
03:44:20 <pikhq> "Themselves" still sounds cleaner to my internal sense of things, but that's probably nothing more than pattern matching doing weird things.
03:44:59 <zzo38> Yes, probably, I think
03:45:36 <zzo38> (That is probably why many people use that, I think)
03:45:38 <pikhq> Honestly, I still have a soft spot in my heart for Spivak pronouns.
03:51:24 <kmc> yeah
03:51:26 <kmc> well, we'll see
03:51:38 <kmc> right now it's hard enough to get people to accept singular 'they'
03:51:51 <kmc> even though it goes back to shakespeare if not earlier
03:53:05 <kmc> pikhq: you don't like shopping?
03:53:35 <pikhq> Though there is one (honestly minor) difference between historical and modern use. Historical singular "they" was for an indefinite referent; modern singular "they" extends to definite ones.
03:54:00 <kmc> pikhq: meaning that the use to refer to a specific person is new?
03:54:03 <pikhq> kmc: I like shopping, and since I'm still boy-mode much of the time, am terrified of being caught in public doing so
03:54:04 <pikhq> Yes
04:15:36 <zzo38> I have a few question about conlang. One is if you have made fonts for constructed languages (with METAFONT or otherwise; for printer fonts I would probably use METAFONT if I were doing so)? Do some involve sounds not in IPA or X-SAMPA? Are there some with multiple mouth? Are there some with unusual writing directions (e.g. circular or 3D)?
04:16:35 <zzo38> There is also Z-SAMPA, but might any involve stuff not in Z-SAMPA? What effects might physiology have on phonology?
04:17:14 <kmc> pikhq: ah, I see
04:17:31 <zzo38> I noticed that Z-SAMPA uses some Italian words that are used in musical notation.
04:17:55 <pikhq> zzo38: I've never done so, but this is an interesting thing to think about.
04:18:13 <pikhq> A conlang for non-human physiology seems like a space ripe for some interesting experiments.
04:18:45 <kmc> pikhq: a nice thing happened to me today
04:18:55 <kmc> I helped a guy use the parking meter in my neighborhood and he said "wow, you're tall!" several times and at the end thanked me for being a "nice girl"
04:19:03 <pikhq> Aww. :)
04:19:34 <kmc> and I didn't even put in particular effort today to look female
04:19:42 <kmc> i was wearing jeans and a men's cut T-shirt
04:20:55 <kmc> so apparently the other stuff (hair, glasses, jewelry, tits?) is enough to overcome the fact that I'm a really really tall woman, at least for some
04:21:14 <kmc> (6'3", specifically)
04:21:33 <pikhq> I mean, if being tall were a problem my entire family would have issues.
04:21:40 <pikhq> My mom's 5'10". She's the short one.
04:21:55 <kmc> it doesn't help, but it's not a dealbreaker
04:25:20 <zzo38> I looked at information about Z-SAMPA, and they mention alternative non-ASCII characters for 8-bit character sets, although there are different 8-bit character sets so you may wish to do differently, such as PC character set.
04:26:05 <zzo38> (Another possibility might be a variant with colours.)
04:27:46 <zzo38> About non-human physiology, one thing I thought is that colour words might be untranslatable (although that is a separate issue from phonology, but it is still a part of the language).
04:28:41 * pikhq nods
04:28:54 <pikhq> In some cases, only translatable by analogy I suppose.
04:29:35 <zzo38> Yes
04:31:06 <pikhq> Though in truth -- color words are sometimes hard to translate even from human languages.
04:32:00 <zzo38> Yes, although in the case I am describing it is even more difficult, I think.
04:33:01 <pikhq> I imagine you're thinking of a species that either has a wider vision range, or (even more difficult) has a vision range that doesn't overlap with ours.
04:33:26 <zzo38> I found a article on Wikipedia about untranslatability.
04:33:34 <pikhq> Though even just having different sensitivity peaks within our vision range probably does odd things to color perception.
04:33:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, the former; I didn't think of the latter although of course there is that too.
04:40:51 <zzo38> pikhq: I didn't think of that either, but that is also a good point.
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07:25:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66483&oldid=66171 * A * (+1303) /* Sandbox */
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08:41:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainloller]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66484 * MiroslavRD * (+610) Created page with "Braincoaster --~~~~"
08:41:37 <b_jonas> kmc: fuchsia and lavender are named of flowers too
08:42:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfrick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66485 * MiroslavRD * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
08:42:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66486&oldid=66314 * MiroslavRD * (+12)
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09:27:29 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66487&oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+51)
09:41:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66488&oldid=63077 * TwilightSparkle * (+1464) /* List of candidates */
09:55:07 <b_jonas> do we disqualify that featured language candidate because TwilightSparkle didn't read the instructions at the top of that page?
09:59:31 <Lykaina> hi b_jonas
10:02:34 <b_jonas> nah, let's give her a little more time, in case she realizes her mistake and edits
10:02:38 <b_jonas> or reads the channel
10:04:51 <b_jonas> I should suggest nopfunge as a featured language
10:05:30 <Lykaina> i said i would make twitter-sized cryptoquotes, i just have to figure out how
10:05:53 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "cryptoquote"?
10:06:06 <b_jonas> a quote where it's hard to tell where the quote comes from?
10:06:11 <Lykaina> sometimes called cryptics
10:06:19 <Lykaina> in the newspaper
10:06:31 <Lykaina> they are quotes
10:06:58 <Lykaina> that are encrypted with a simple substitution cipher
10:07:18 <Lykaina> turns out, easier to break than make
10:08:21 <Lykaina> 26! possible ciphers
10:08:59 <Lykaina> 26! = 403291461126605635584000000
10:09:20 <Lykaina> and there are so many quotes
10:10:48 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;for$c(0..rand(25)){y/A-Za-z/B-ZAb-za/};print'
10:10:48 <HackEso> 930) <svmmvr> Gur bgure qnl (jryy, gur bgure jrrx) zl jvsr jnf naablrq jvgu zr orpnhfr fur unq n qernz jurer V unq tbggra hf cynar gvpxrgf vagb n #rfbgrevp zrrg fbzrjurer va gur zvqqyr bs Terraynaq va gur jvagre, jvgubhg nfxvat ure svefg. Cyhf fur jnfa'g ernyyl vagrerfgrq va n #rfbgrevp zrrg ng nyy, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq va jvagregvzr. (V guvax vg'f xvaq bs pbyq gurer?)
10:10:54 <b_jonas> oh, arbitrary substitution one
10:10:58 <b_jonas> that's better
10:12:12 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print'
10:12:13 <HackEso> 848) <ttz38> Scj B lq vlabnc Cvgdbjf jhclxck, iua ba bj Elvlmblv Cvgdbjf, vza Ikbabjf Cvgdbjf.
10:12:15 <b_jonas> ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print'
10:12:32 <b_jonas> the "38" is sort of a giveaway
10:13:30 <Lykaina> famous quotes, not chat room quotes...
10:14:00 <b_jonas> or just use the substitution that turns the quote to alphabetically the first, for canonicity
10:14:20 <b_jonas> so you take the first letter to "a", the second unique letter to "b" etc
10:15:08 <Lykaina> just as easy to break
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11:01:42 <b_jonas> the last o strip was 12 days ago. time to upload the next one.
11:33:00 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66489&oldid=66480 * A * (+59) /* Constants */
11:38:37 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66490&oldid=66489 * A * (+19) /* Constants */
11:39:48 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66491&oldid=66490 * A * (+8) /* Constants */
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11:54:30 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66492&oldid=66491 * A * (+1520) /* Constants */
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11:57:52 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66493&oldid=66492 * A * (+292) /* Constants */
12:01:53 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66494&oldid=66493 * A * (+253) /* Constants */
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12:07:32 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66495&oldid=66494 * A * (+1019) /* Constants */
12:15:44 <esowiki> [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66496&oldid=46931 * MiroslavRD * (+20) It's a stub, and this wiki is extremely inactive.
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12:33:56 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66497&oldid=66495 * A * (+3276) /* Constants */ Thanks!
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13:45:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66498&oldid=66488 * TwilightSparkle * (+52)
13:52:21 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66499&oldid=66497 * TwilightSparkle * (+0) /* Constants */
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14:03:43 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66500&oldid=66499 * A * (+119)
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14:23:39 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66501&oldid=66500 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */ Very 11+1<
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16:11:52 <esowiki> [[PL/MIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66502&oldid=57562 * B jonas * (-306)
16:12:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: wiki notification bot missed my edit
16:17:43 <b_jonas> ah no
16:17:48 <b_jonas> it's just late
16:25:49 <b_jonas> [ 0.0254*12#.6 7 NB. how long is 6 foot and 7 inches?
16:25:50 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2.0066
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17:02:33 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66503&oldid=66230 * MiroslavRD * (+33)
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17:36:24 <b_jonas> `8ball Does fungot give better life advice than a Magic 8-ball?
17:36:24 <fungot> b_jonas: forcer says: would " to give somebody something" or " gregor arr"... sort of tripping point is that satisfaction of predicate should be the default.
17:36:24 <HackEso> It is certain.
17:37:26 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66504&oldid=66503 * MiroslavRD * (+883)
17:38:22 <b_jonas> fungot, please move the mouse cursor away so it doesn't cover your answer
17:38:22 <fungot> b_jonas: they're expensive.
17:38:33 <b_jonas> what? mouses? no they aren't
17:40:08 <int-e> must be the cursors then, not the mice.
17:41:32 <shachaf> Or answers.
17:42:43 * pikhq sells prime mouse cursors; only $50 per pixel
17:42:44 <kmc> the tripping point
17:43:55 <esowiki> [[Blyat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+201) Created page with "'''Blyat''' is a modded Cyrillic++ just to use CS:GO meme terms instead of normal code. [[Category:Stubs]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Weirdlangs]] Category:Turing-co..."
17:44:03 <int-e> pikhq: didn't that happen?
17:44:21 <esowiki> [[Blyat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66506&oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+29)
17:44:59 <int-e> pikhq: close enough, I think: http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/
17:45:55 <int-e> (wow that looks so terrible)
17:45:56 <pikhq> :)
17:46:23 <pikhq> Pretty awesome bit though.
17:48:22 <int-e> That was 2005. Time's passing so quickly.
17:49:58 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Million_Dollar_Homepage#Survival ... there are "studies" about this page!
17:50:15 <pikhq> Time is an illusion that helps things make sense... :)
17:55:49 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+5479) Created page with "'''Human's mind have sex with someone''' is a stupid Brainfuck, where it uses unabbreviated commands instead of abbreviated symbols. == Commands == * Move the pointer to the..."
17:56:20 <pikhq> Uh-huh...
17:58:06 <int-e> b_jonas: ^^ this is your time to shine with another rant.
17:58:27 <pikhq> BF derivatives aren't clever? :)
17:58:28 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66508&oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+133)
18:00:03 <int-e> Let's wait for the inevitable quine, I mean program that prints its own source code.
18:01:05 <b_jonas> int-e: huh? why? just because it's a brainfuck-derivative?
18:02:12 <int-e> b_jonas: yes
18:04:35 <b_jonas> int-e: ok. my usual rant is that while those supposed esoteric languages are stupid, the wiki is serving its originally intended purpose that it's attracting people away from places that we want those people to spam less, like wikipedias.
18:05:22 <b_jonas> a language with the semantics of Ook! and the syntax of Real fast Nora's is not particularly innovative, but it makes more sense than some of the "languages" that people write pages about
18:05:50 <b_jonas> at least it's well-defined enough that you could write programs in it, if the aliens with the big guns demanded that from you
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18:24:48 <ais523> oddly, the BF derivative shovelware ended up serving a "useful" purpose, in that CGCC started writing polyglots with all the syntax-substituted brainfucks
18:25:30 <b_jonas> that's not a useful purpose, and it's not like they were going to run out of languages usable for programming
18:26:00 <ais523> the megapolyglot often seems to be on the verge of running out of languages that can be made to fit
18:26:19 <b_jonas> oh, you mean that one]\
18:26:25 <b_jonas> not just smaller polyglots
18:26:26 <b_jonas> ok
18:27:22 <ais523> right, the esolangs.org community is thinking "surely we have enough BF derivatives already?", and CGCC has fit in 277 languages into a polyglot and thus is often on the verge of running out
18:27:38 <ais523> BF substitutions tend to be easy to fit in due to having simple semantics and ignoring most of the program
18:28:35 <ais523> and that 277 includes a lot of very closely related languages, such as slightly different Haskell command lines
18:30:53 <b_jonas> yeah, some people on code golf count python1 as a separate programming language from python2
18:35:24 <b_jonas> random observations from my vacation to NRW. in Dortmund, there's an U-Bahn (tube, metro) station where there's a platform on both sides of the train, the train doors open on both sides at the same time, people get on on one side and off on the other side. this is an interesting solution for a high traffic stop that I hadn't seen anywhere else. I like it.
18:35:30 <ais523> everyone should according to their rules
18:35:56 <ais523> their definition of a "language" is very precise, things like the Windows version of Perl 5.26 and the Linux version of Perl 5.26 are different languages…
18:36:15 <ais523> although the rules end up breaking down when you take them to the logical extremes, most people other than me avoid those
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18:37:31 <b_jonas> well sure. I've worked with perl on windows, including trying to port my own script from windows-native perl to msys perl. perl is so incompatible with itself that you can consider any version a different version from itself.
18:39:33 <b_jonas> like, there used to be a windows-specific bug in perl when you called glob with multiple arguments
18:40:13 <b_jonas> and it's not just about the parts that are different because they access some functionality where the underlying system calls work differently
18:40:35 <ais523> didn't old versions of Perl implement glob using the shell?
18:41:08 <b_jonas> yes, old ones did
18:41:15 <b_jonas> using tcsh I think
18:42:20 <ais523> "Netscape Navigator 9 with JavaScript disabled"
18:42:30 <ais523> (actual language inside the polyglot)
18:47:55 <b_jonas> what makes it strange is how new contributors test the code in all those weird languages
18:48:43 <ais523> I pretty much gave up once it got past the scope of what TIO could handle
18:52:46 <b_jonas> have they added a pair of languages that are two very similar versions of a 90s game console, and the difference between them is detected from the timing of the sound chip or the diskette drive, so you can only test it on real hardware with an eprom cart, because the emulator doesn't emulate the speed of different diskette drives realistically?
18:52:53 <b_jonas> s/emulator/emulators/
18:54:45 <ais523> no
18:54:55 <ais523> actually there's a surprising lack of machine codes
18:55:04 <ais523> (there's at least one, but you'd expect more)
18:55:14 <ais523> I think there's a desire not to add any languages with a hard size limit
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18:55:52 <b_jonas> even when the hard size limit is larger than the 32 kilobyte or 64 kilobyte post size limit of SE?
18:57:41 <ais523> we could always start compressing it in the post
18:57:52 <b_jonas> yeah
18:58:07 <ais523> SE allows "Stack Snippets" which are basically a TC post syntax (based on JavaScript), and they're already being used to collapse the polyglots to save space on the page
18:58:35 <ais523> so as long as you can compress it and the post to less than the post size - decompressor size, it should be OK
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19:00:21 <RainbowRabbit> sup
19:00:42 -!- RainbowRabbit has left.
19:03:28 <ais523> wow, RainbowRabbit left quickly
19:03:40 <ais523> normally on IRC you have to wait a bit if you want to see whether anyone's around
19:05:02 <b_jonas> in Köln, in the city center, lampposts were coated with what feels like some sort of silicone substance, probably against grafitti
19:07:05 <b_jonas> also, in Dortmund, everything is closed on Sunday, which is pretty annoying to me
19:08:33 <ais523> Sunday rules in the UK are weird
19:08:46 <ais523> major/large shops are not allowed to open more than 8 hours on a Sunday
19:08:51 <b_jonas> we had about a year when we had government rules for Sunday too
19:08:54 <b_jonas> but they got reverted
19:08:54 <ais523> but small shops can open for as long as they like
19:08:56 <b_jonas> luckily
19:09:04 <ais523> major supermarkets often have small spinoffs to get around this rule
19:09:26 <b_jonas> yeah, I think we had exceptions for small shops too
19:11:17 <b_jonas> I think that was the rule because it matched their stated purpose with the rule, which was to protect workers who may not want to work on Sunday but were too powerless against their employees -- though people believed there was a less obvious selfish political purpose in the backgroun
19:11:39 <b_jonas> s/purpose/agenda/
19:11:51 <pikhq> Probably historically there was a religious justification to it.
19:12:33 <b_jonas> yeah, that was certainly part of what they played for
19:12:39 <ais523> I think in the UK it was originally a religious thing that got repurposed (without necessarily undermining the original reason)
19:13:09 <b_jonas> but I don't think religion has much to do with the general idea that people should have a rest on some days of the week
19:14:09 <b_jonas> that's the sort of thing that both religious and anti-religious governments promised because people like it
19:14:27 <pikhq> Some religions do promote it, but it has been fairly common in a wide variety of societies, yeah
19:15:12 <b_jonas> right. it's like not murdering people. religions promote it as a rule too, but so do anti-religious people
19:17:24 <b_jonas> ah right, we just had an smbc on that
19:20:08 <zzo38> I think the rule should be, avoid making too much noise outside on Sunday. But otherwise you can do stuff if you want to do, just as well as other days of the week.
19:20:59 <zzo38> (With one exception, perhaps: The bells that tell the time on the clock will still be allowed.)
19:22:08 <b_jonas> the northern part of Dortmund has an itneresting park/forest hybrid thing. it's more well-tended than the kind of forest I'm used to, but bigger and more closed than a park in the sense that I could easily walk for a while in the middle without seeing anything but trees.
19:22:18 <b_jonas> it's quite close to the city center too
19:22:47 <b_jonas> was nice but also a little scary in the dark
19:23:08 <b_jonas> not like one of those big castle gardens either, too irregular for that
19:35:13 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66509&oldid=66504 * MiroslavRD * (+2)
19:36:26 <esowiki> [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66510&oldid=66509 * MiroslavRD * (+5)
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19:51:25 <esowiki> [[Here's to the crazy ones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66511 * MiroslavRD * (+3428) Possibly a normal esolang
19:51:50 <esowiki> [[99 Bottles of Beer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66512 * MiroslavRD * (+32) Redirected page to [[99 bottles of beer]]
19:52:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66513&oldid=66359 * MiroslavRD * (+84)
19:52:19 <b_jonas> are there music players suitable for children under 3 years of age, in the sense that they're impossible even for an infant to disassemble, too large to try to swallow, and spit-proof? or is that practically impossible because you can't make the contact towards the charger infant-proof?
19:52:49 <b_jonas> presumably it would need to have built-in memory rather than a micro-SD card slot
19:52:57 <b_jonas> and no display
19:53:10 <pikhq> Macro SD card?
19:53:22 <pikhq> (not an SD card, more like a PCMCIA-sized SD card :))
19:53:35 <b_jonas> pikhq: no no. an infant would bite on that and break it
19:53:54 <b_jonas> infant-proofing is harder than vandal-proofing
19:54:18 <esowiki> [[MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66514 * MiroslavRD * (+29) Redirected page to [[User:MiroslavRD]]
19:54:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66515 * MiroslavRD * (+34) Redirected page to [[User talk:MiroslavRD]]
19:54:54 <ais523> <MiroslavRD> Here's to the crazy ones is a inspiration of Shakespeare Programming Language adjusted to reference Apple's TextEdit icon before Yosemite, saying "Dear Kate, Here's to the crazy ones." ← that sentence has got a close-to-perfectly-balanced ambiguity between Kate as a person's name and Kate as a text editor's name
19:55:07 <pikhq> b_jonas: Fiiine
19:55:08 <ais523> given that it's Apple, the former is probably more likely, but that depends on context
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19:55:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that
19:56:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that [talkpage edition]
19:58:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66516&oldid=66498 * B jonas * (+0) Instrns at top of page clearly say you should use the same order as on Language List, so 1+ comes first.
20:05:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66517&oldid=66482 * Ais523 * (+1348) Prolog isn't imperative; it has imperative constructs, but many of its constructs can't easily be converted to imperative equivalents
20:11:18 <b_jonas> I'm considering to change my featured language suggestion from Befunge to Nopfunge
20:11:41 <b_jonas> despite that I usually don't like counter machines
20:12:52 <ais523> Nopfunge and Tip are interesting because all the information is stored in the instruction pointer via repeating the program
20:13:03 <b_jonas> yeah
20:13:16 <b_jonas> Conedy might be like that too, but we don't know if it's powerful enough
20:14:56 <zzo38> Have you seen my new and currently unnamed esolangs? I would want to know what is other people's comment of it.
20:15:20 <b_jonas> You could say that they're cheating by storing extra information that doesn't actually determine the instruction in the higher order parts for Nopfunge or the lower order parts for Conedy or Blindfolded Arithmetic
20:15:23 <ais523> actually, this reminds me of an esolang idea I was working on a while back but never made public because I couldn't get it to work
20:15:57 <b_jonas> but the language definitions are natural enough that it doesn't feel like cheating
20:15:59 <zzo38> Which one is that?
20:16:06 <ais523> it consists of a procedurally generated 3D space with lots of objects in it (like spheres, cubes, rendered 3D ASCII letters, that sort of thing)
20:16:20 <ais523> a program is simply a point and a direction
20:16:35 <ais523> interpreted as a ray that bounces off things
20:17:00 <imode> raytracing: the esolang.
20:17:10 <ais523> and all the numbers have infinite precision (somehow, not sure whether rationals or computable reals work better)
20:17:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, do we in first place have a language where the contents of the instruction space is a pre-determined infinite one and the program consists of only a bignum instruction pointer for where to start?
20:17:22 <ais523> I couldn't get it to be TC in a natural way, though
20:17:33 <imode> ais523: have you seen "geometric" turing machines?
20:17:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so, I might be wrong though
20:17:46 <ais523> imode: no
20:17:59 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, why 3D rather than 2D?
20:18:02 <imode> lemme see if I can dig that up.
20:18:14 <b_jonas> can't it be turing-complete even if it's 2D?
20:18:27 <ais523> b_jonas: actually I think even 3 dimensions may be too little
20:18:38 <b_jonas> I guess to get such a language, you can just fix a nopfunge program that is a universal machine
20:18:48 <ais523> the basic problems are related to a) how you store information, b) how you store the program
20:19:39 <ais523> if you have curved surfaces to bounce off you can effectively define a program via using very minor shifts in the starting position of the ray, that get amplified when bouncing, so that you can take whatever path you like
20:19:56 <ais523> but a 3D object has a 2D surface, that means you're using up an entire dimension just to store the program
20:19:59 <b_jonas> right, so you can have a full oracle in a single finely patterned object
20:20:17 <b_jonas> that just reflect the ray to the right direction in a bounded number of steps
20:20:25 <b_jonas> possibly even in one step if it needn't be smooth
20:20:30 <ais523> and the remaining 1 dimension doesn't seem to be usable for anything more data-powerful than a single stack without some really contrived objects
20:21:18 <imode> ugh, this dude's stuff is scattered everywhere.
20:21:23 <imode> http://lara.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2332/1001/LIP-RR2004-09.pdf?sequence=1
20:21:27 <ais523> anyway, I got stuck (primarily on this problem) and never ended up creating a usable language, but that's about as far as I've gotten
20:21:49 <imode> he demonstrates a 2 counter automaton.
20:21:53 <imode> it's a "signal machine".
20:22:04 <b_jonas> ais523: could you make something discrete, like a reversible nopfunge in ten dimensions?
20:22:24 <imode> https://arxiv.org/pdf/0906.3225.pdf
20:22:27 <ais523> it's easy enough to do it if you allow for contrived object fields
20:22:33 <imode> more stuff.
20:23:17 <ais523> like having a universal machine just lying there, or using some sort of space-filling pattern that will contain any particular finite set of objects in any possible arrangement somewhere (assuminig the number of possible object arrangements is countable)
20:23:18 <imode> dude essentially forms computations by geometric construction.
20:23:33 <imode> all 2D too.
20:23:52 <b_jonas> ais523: a universal machine for something much more powerful than turing though
20:24:17 <imode> so you could absolutely make it TC, just by having different collision rules for objects.
20:25:26 <ais523> imode: right, I wanted something like that but more tarpitty
20:25:41 <imode> can't get more tarpitty than actual TMs. :P
20:25:49 <ais523> yes you can
20:25:50 <imode> well you probably could now that I think about it..
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20:26:06 <imode> keep forgetting the lengths people will go to to make their language unusable.
20:26:25 <ais523> tag machines are a good example of something generally considered to be simpler than a Turing machine
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20:27:01 <b_jonas> imode: it's not just deliberately making them unusable, it's natural constructions that happen to be hard to use, or stuff like M:tG that are designed for goals other than general programming
20:27:20 <imode> I dunno, Malbolge seems maliciously designed.
20:27:28 <imode> along with a host of other languages.
20:27:40 <b_jonas> imode: yeah, think of Nopfunge rather than Malbolge or Intercal
20:27:47 <ais523> Malbolge's kind of a special case, it was intentionally designed to be unusable
20:27:51 <b_jonas> and note that Malbolge is old, which is its excuse
20:28:15 <ais523> b_jonas: well, if you subscribe to the rottytooth school that sees esolang creation as art, the user experience is part of that
20:28:21 <imode> doesn't seem rather well thought out considering... ALGOL68. :P
20:28:26 <ais523> and the theoretical/computational experience is quite different
20:28:31 <ais523> but also part of that
20:28:46 <ais523> esolangs designed as esolangs should ideally be interesting in all dimensions
20:28:59 <ais523> I put a lot of effort into Incident, for example (which is hard to use but at least has interesting reasons for that)
20:29:52 <ais523> much of my esolang research is more at the computational model end of things, though
20:30:08 <ais523> in which case the syntax doesn't even really exist, you're just coming up with something to fit it into a computer
20:31:52 <ais523> I guess my line is "if this language mostly exists to compile into something else, its syntax is not the interesting part"
20:32:11 <ais523> whereas if the language mostly exists for some other reason, things like the user interface are important
20:32:37 <ais523> there's an esolang (I've forgotten what it's called) in which there's a time limit on entering each line of the program and you can't use backspace…
20:32:58 <b_jonas> right, waterfall model and stackflow are examples where the syntax isn't important
20:33:11 <pikhq> At the very least, esolangs ought to be interesting along some dimension in ways that would otherwise be impractical for a language intended for serious use by _someone_.
20:33:12 <b_jonas> ais523: is that one flavored as a magic system in some fantasy universe, the programs being spells?
20:33:37 <ais523> b_jonas: no, it's flavoured as a terrible IDE
20:33:53 <b_jonas> ah yes, those do exist
20:33:56 <esowiki> [[0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66518 * MiroslavRD * (+13304) Created page with "0 is a joke language created by [[User:MiroslavRD|MiroslavRD]]. It is a glitchy [[brainfuck]] derivative. It distorts your code in these ways: * Add unexpected symbols * Re..."
20:34:05 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66519&oldid=66295 * MiroslavRD * (+169)
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[Aleph 0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66520 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]]
20:34:37 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66521&oldid=66518 * Ais523 * (-11) unpipe link to userspace
20:36:04 <b_jonas> like the door opening keypad at my grandmother's house, which has such a short timeout that it erases my input between when I type the flat number and separator and when I figure out what the four-digit password is
20:36:40 <b_jonas> I always get it only on second try, when I have the password cached into my short term memory rather than just use the mnemonic from my long term memory
20:36:57 <b_jonas> so stupid, no need to have such a short timeout there
20:37:35 <ais523> the purpose of a timeout on those things is often to prevent issues where one person leaves information partially entered and then another person uses the keypad, causing all the inputs to be misinterpreted
20:37:51 <b_jonas> yes, I agree that there should be a timeout
20:37:57 <b_jonas> it's just too short in that case
20:38:00 <ais523> I've seen mechanical keypads of that nature which, being mechanical, have no timeout; there are often big signs put above them saying "please remember to press cancel before using this keypad"
20:38:05 <zzo38> How short is the timeout?
20:38:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't remember, probably like five seconds
20:39:33 <b_jonas> ais523: this keypad has a display though, which shows "---" while you're typing the password
20:39:56 <b_jonas> this sort of keypad is really common, we have a similar one on this house, and one on my parents' house
20:41:12 <b_jonas> the keypad reads digits by shining horizontal and vertical lights a millimeter in front of the keypad, and detecting which row and column of light is interrupted. thus it can only read one key at a time.
20:41:41 <b_jonas> it's an interesting way to make a keypad that doesn't break easily from outdoor conditions and deliberate vandalism
20:42:28 <ais523> couldn't it read two or more keys at a time if they were in the same row or column?
20:42:45 <b_jonas> perhaps it could
20:43:05 <b_jonas> but I think it's better to detect those as invalid reads
20:44:23 <b_jonas> `? resetti
20:44:24 <HackEso> resetti? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:45:47 <ais523> you could use them as chords to expand the character set of your passwords
20:46:18 <b_jonas> ais523: the one at my parent's house already sometimes becomes unusable at winter. or it did before some of the hardware got replaced. so I say no.
20:46:43 <b_jonas> if you want to expand password space, just use passwords longer than four digits.
20:47:38 <zzo38> I think four digit passwords is too short. Even if four digit passwords are allowed, the maximum should be more than that, perhaps eight or ten digits.
20:47:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: for a house gate, it doesn't really matter
20:48:08 <b_jonas> but sure, allowing a longer password is fine
20:48:23 <b_jonas> and the hardware these days can allow it easily
20:48:45 <b_jonas> for electronic house door openers I mean, not for eg. combination locks
21:01:49 <b_jonas> `? electronic monk
21:01:49 <HackEso> electronic monk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:06:16 <pikhq> Electrocuted monk?
21:06:31 <b_jonas> pikhq: no. electronic monk, from Douglas Adams.
21:06:54 <pikhq> Bah, humbug.
21:07:06 <pikhq> Go stick your head in a pig.
21:17:57 <arseniiv> do someone knows what’s that CRT mania about?
21:18:07 <arseniiv> how objective is it
21:18:18 <imode> CRT?
21:18:25 <b_jonas> `? crt
21:18:26 <HackEso> crt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:18:27 <arseniiv> CRT display, I mean
21:19:23 <arseniiv> versus modern LCD technologies which there too many are now that I don’t know their betterness relations anymore
21:22:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know one electronic monk, it’s called Delay Lama and is very old by now
21:25:56 <b_jonas> does he use mercury delay lines?
21:26:43 <imode> it's funny you mention that, I had an idea for a language that functioned similarly to delay lines.
21:28:45 <imode> instructions are laid out linearly. data is fed through them, one at a time. the instructions essentially define a pipeline. every element of memory is fed through the pipeline and then sent back through the loop until you hit a stopping point.
21:29:28 <imode> with structured data items and stateful pipeline stages, could prove a concise dataflow language if you figure out how to "flatten" dataflow networks into a pipeline.
21:37:06 <arseniiv> b_jonas: as if!
21:41:30 <arseniiv> uh, I meant to say “if only”
21:43:58 <ais523> hmm, could you combine the two phrases into "as if only" to make a simultaneous expression of disbelief and encouragement?
21:46:31 <b_jonas> fungot probably could, he combines expressions from a too narrow window all the time
21:46:31 <fungot> b_jonas: your patience is commendable. let me check whether it is
21:48:55 <b_jonas> fungot: it's time for the new o strip. please post it.
21:48:55 <fungot> b_jonas: then i think you have a third-world browser? or disabling it voluntarly? sure
21:49:24 <b_jonas> I did do a shift-refresh. I'm not going to disable the browser cache for you.
21:55:02 <pikhq> arseniiv: There's a few different claims for why they're "better", but the Big Ones are: CRTs have less intrinsic delay, CRTs are better at handling interlaced signals, and CRTs tend to be more accepting of odd display timings than modern LCDs are.
21:55:36 <b_jonas> pikhq: also their colors look the same from a wider viewing angle
21:55:53 <pikhq> For example, some games switch between 240p and 480i display modes with slightly different timing, and modern displays basically stop drawing anything during the switch.
21:55:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is that still an issue with modern types of LCDs?
21:55:59 <pikhq> (old CRTs just don't care)
21:56:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think so
21:56:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what did improve in LCDs is that their colors look nicer, and the contrast stronger
21:57:00 <arseniiv> hmm I guess first of all I just don’t game too much, moreso in fullscreen
21:57:47 <arseniiv> I even watched films in a window usually :D
21:57:56 <pikhq> Ultimately all of those add up to "old game consoles were built for old displays, and modern displays aren't 100% compatible with them -- especially without a lot of hacks"
21:58:24 <b_jonas> pikhq: the viewing angle thing isn't about that
21:58:38 <pikhq> Yeah, that's more a fundamental limitation in the display tech.
21:58:41 <arseniiv> pikhq: wait, I thought they talked about modern gaming? oh
21:58:57 <b_jonas> I think it's both
21:59:00 <pikhq> Though modern LCDs have _much_ better viewing angles than old ones did.
21:59:09 <b_jonas> the larger part is that the old games were designed for crts
21:59:26 <pikhq> Yeah, CRTs having better latency still holds for modern gaming.
21:59:52 <pikhq> Though -- if you purchase the right displays, you can get LCD displays with low enough latency it's not a problem.
21:59:55 <b_jonas> but it's also that crts can do 200 hertz refresh and the visible output can change quickly compared to similarly priced lcds
22:00:06 <b_jonas> but I think that's getting somewhat solved by more expensive lcds
22:00:15 <pikhq> (buuut it's a lot easier to find suitable CRTs)
22:00:40 <b_jonas> I prefer lcds though, they have a lot of advantages
22:19:30 <b_jonas> well, at least nice lcds
22:19:38 <b_jonas> not the cheap ones that come with broken pixels
22:20:46 <b_jonas> I had the misfortune of meeting the latter kind at work
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23:01:36 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66522&oldid=66521 * MiroslavRD * (+548) Fixed Brainfuck code to Aleph 0 code
23:05:16 <esowiki> [[And then]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66523&oldid=46426 * MiroslavRD * (+19)
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23:10:09 <esowiki> [[Here's to the crazy ones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66524&oldid=66511 * MiroslavRD * (+42)
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23:12:01 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66525 * Moon * (+771) Migrate from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:CodeBox I think it'd be more fitting here.
23:13:12 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66526&oldid=66525 * Moon * (-29) Remove <source> tag, as the SyntaxHighlight extension is not installed on esolangs.
23:16:40 <esowiki> [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66527&oldid=66526 * Moon * (+8)
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23:56:47 <zzo38> Does some mailing list software include support for NNTP?
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