←2019-11-14 2019-11-15 2019-11-16→ ↑2019 ↑all
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00:09:11 <tswett> Yo.
00:09:22 <tswett> So riot.im is being weird.
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00:12:19 <tswett> So, I'm playing with Attempto Controlled English, which is (mostly) a syntax for first-order logic.
00:12:58 <tswett> There's an ACE theorem prover here: http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/race/
00:13:28 <tswett> I've found that it's able to prove a certain rather interesting theorem.
00:13:48 <tswett> Axioms: David is a person. If there is a person A then exactly one person is a mother of the person A.
00:14:02 <tswett> Theorem (apparently): Every person is a mother of David.
00:15:25 <tswett> Corollary: David is a mother of David.
00:16:45 <tswett> I'm trying to figure out how it managed to conclude that...
00:18:52 <b_jonas> tswett: can it also prove that every person is David?
00:19:51 <tswett> b_jonas: Hmmm, yes, it can.
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00:20:56 <b_jonas> tswett: can it still prove that if you only take the first axiom?
00:21:28 <tswett> b_jonas: No.
00:21:46 <b_jonas> tswett: how about if you take the first axiom, and the second axiom but replace "A" with "X" case sensitively
00:22:14 <b_jonas> (as in, maybe it confuses "a" with "A" which is why it misunderstands something)
00:22:30 <tswett> It still proves that every person is David.
00:22:55 <tswett> So now I have—
00:23:05 <b_jonas> Do you have the source code for the prover?
00:23:21 <tswett> Axioms: David is a person. If there is a person X then exactly one person is a mother of the person X. Theorem: Every person is David.
00:23:21 <b_jonas> Can it prove a contradiction from those axioms?
00:23:50 <tswett> It says the axioms are consistent.
00:24:37 <b_jonas> Can you formalize the theorem prover into that lanuage, and if so, can it prove the formal version of "the ACE theorem prover cannot prove this statement"?
00:24:50 <tswett> Oof.
00:25:00 <b_jonas> Sorry.
00:25:05 <b_jonas> That wasn't a serious question.
00:25:05 <tswett> :D
00:25:19 <b_jonas> Anyway, does this theorem prover output proofs?
00:25:40 <tswett> No, only minimal subsets of axioms required to prove the theorem.
00:26:44 <b_jonas> tswett: are you sure that that second axiom has a quantifier over X?
00:27:38 <shachaf> Am I David?
00:29:25 <tswett> b_jonas: It definitely interprets X as a bound variable.
00:29:38 <tswett> In both positions.
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00:30:17 <tswett> Ahøyrjan.
00:30:55 <tswett> The axioms don't prove "Everything is David." but they do prove "Everyone is David."
00:32:16 <tswett> They also prove "Every house is a person," and, of course, "Every house is David."
00:32:17 <oerjan> tswellot. sounds like sound axioms.
00:35:41 <tswett> Also, "Someone is everything."
00:36:02 <oerjan> pantheism built in
00:36:24 <tswett> (Meaning, "There exists someone A such that for all B, A = B.")
00:47:31 <tswett> Hmmmm. I think it's doing something weird with proper names.
00:47:42 <tswett> Axioms: David is a person. Brian is a cat.
00:47:47 <tswett> Theorem: David is a cat.
00:57:25 <tswett> Sole axiom: David is a person and a person is David.
00:57:31 <tswett> Theorem: Every house is a person.
00:59:54 * kmc waves to tswett
01:00:08 <tswett> Yo. \o
01:02:48 <tswett> Sole axiom: David is a person and Brian is a person. Theorem: Every house is David.
01:06:56 <tswett> Hmmmm. Apparently that follows by "transitivity of comparative adjectives."
01:08:00 <tswett> That's what it says when I tell it to show its reasoning.
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01:11:59 <oerjan> `? labels.pl
01:12:01 <HackEso> Preprocessor for asm2bf to support labels. Use % to refer to a label, use @ to declare one.
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01:12:39 <oerjan> `slwd labels.pl//s,P,labels.pl is a p,
01:12:41 <HackEso> labels.pl//labels.pl is a preprocessor for asm2bf to support labels. Use % to refer to a label, use @ to declare one.
01:13:07 <oerjan> `? rules of wisdom
01:13:08 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
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01:13:36 <shachaf> `slwd rules of wisdom//s/:/ be:/
01:14:56 <oerjan> if you do that you have to add proper grammar to the list hth
01:15:54 <shachaf> or consistency
01:17:52 <oerjan> `` echo $IRC_CHANNEL
01:17:53 <HackEso> No output.
01:18:29 <oerjan> `` echo $IRC_TARGET
01:18:29 <HackEso> ​#esoteric
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01:25:54 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;, && "$IRC_TARGET" == #*;/
01:25:55 <HackEso> ​/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 29: unterminated `s' command
01:26:05 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;, && "$IRC_TARGET" == #*;,
01:26:09 <HackEso> bin/ls//#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" ;; "$IRC_TARGET" == #*; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
01:26:15 <oerjan> oops
01:26:20 <oerjan> `revert
01:26:21 <HackEso> Done.
01:26:55 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;,\&\& "$IRC_TARGET" == #*;,
01:26:56 <HackEso> bin/ls//#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" && "$IRC_TARGET" == #*; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
01:27:08 <oerjan> `ls wisdom
01:27:09 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/ls: line 3: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:27:27 <oerjan> argh
01:27:31 <oerjan> `revert
01:27:32 <HackEso> Done.
01:27:38 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;,\&\& "$IRC_TARGET" == #* ;,
01:27:39 <HackEso> bin/ls//#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" && "$IRC_TARGET" == #* ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
01:27:44 <oerjan> `ls wisdom
01:27:45 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/ls: line 3: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:28:01 <oerjan> ok i'm not doing something right. oh.
01:28:17 <oerjan> `revert
01:28:18 <HackEso> Done.
01:28:36 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;,\&\& "$IRC_TARGET" == \\#* ;,
01:28:38 <HackEso> bin/ls//#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" && "$IRC_TARGET" == \#* ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
01:28:42 <oerjan> `ls wisdom
01:28:43 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/ls: line 2: #esoteric: command not found \ ` \ `! \ `? \ `? `? \ `# \ ^ \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ¯\_(ツ)_ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ @ \ * \ \ \ ꙮ \ ☆ \ ☃ \ ⌨ \   \ ⊥ \ ☾_ \ 🐚 \ 𝕈 \ 🐐 \ ᛁᚿ \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚
01:28:49 <oerjan> darn
01:28:59 <oerjan> oops
01:29:28 <oerjan> `revert
01:29:29 <HackEso> Done.
01:29:57 <oerjan> `sled bin/ls//s,;,\&\& [[ "$IRC_TARGET" == \\#* ]];,
01:29:58 <HackEso> bin/ls//#!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" && [[ "$IRC_TARGET" == \#* ]]; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
01:30:08 <oerjan> `ls wisdom
01:30:11 <HackEso> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
01:30:14 <oerjan> whee
01:31:19 <oerjan> no visible nicks, of course.
01:32:00 <oerjan> although much unicode to annoy people. maybe the explanation needs changing.
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06:50:38 <kspalaiologos> Hi, b_jonas
06:50:59 <kspalaiologos> My client automagically conmected to IRC and I didn't notice it
06:51:43 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf mov r1, 2\mov r2, 3
06:51:43 <HackEso> ​+>+[#
06:51:52 <kspalaiologos> ??
06:52:11 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf mov r1,2/mov r2,3
06:52:12 <HackEso> ​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>[-]++>[-]+++<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
06:52:18 <kspalaiologos> Yeah perfect
06:52:32 <kspalaiologos> Thanks for the command
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07:53:11 <kspalaiologos> What happened
07:53:19 <kspalaiologos> My bot has crashed?
07:53:32 <kspalaiologos> How did it rejoin I didn't implement it
08:08:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: technically on freenode, channel names can also start with @ or *
08:08:17 <b_jonas> but that probably doesn't come up with HackEso
08:08:37 <b_jonas> I think it would be better to check for a nick rather than for a channel
08:08:53 <b_jonas> but it doesn't matter in the case of ls
08:14:15 <FireFly> hm, I don't think they can start with those?
08:15:03 <FireFly> I'm getting CHANTYPES=# from /version at least
08:30:06 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, but you can send a message to *#esoteric or @#esoteric , which is like sending to #esoteric but only users who are voiced or op on that channel get it, and the target shows up as *#esoteric or @#esoteric on the receiver side. of course HackEso isn't voiced or op on any channel, so he won't get those.
08:30:25 <b_jonas> (I don't know if *#esoteric also sends the message to nicks who are op but not voiced.)
08:32:37 <b_jonas> It's easier to test for nick characters [-0-9A-}] because those are the same on all networks
08:32:47 <b_jonas> no messing with channel types and prefixes
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08:41:25 <b_jonas> this prefixed channel thing causes bugs in many clients by the way
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09:09:57 <FireFly> oh that, it'd be +#foo in the voiced case
09:35:45 <fizzie> Will it actually look to the recipient as if it was sent to @#foo or +#foo though?
09:36:03 <fizzie> I would imagine that would confuse a lot of clients.
09:37:37 <FireFly> it does
09:37:46 <fizzie> Funky.
09:38:09 <FireFly> It's kind of just a rarely used feature AIUI
09:39:15 <FireFly> There were some changes last summer to have messages sent through to ops when channel mode +z is set, use @# instead of just #
09:39:36 <FireFly> which does make it possible to distinguish them at least on the client side
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10:19:13 <wib_jonas> Hey look. OEIS doesn't keep its own documented rules. https://oeis.org/eishelp1.html says that listing at least four terms are required for every sequence, but https://oeis.org/A235383 only has two terms.
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10:25:56 <wib_jonas> fungot, do you keep your own rules?
10:25:56 <fungot> wib_jonas: when i first had cleared cell handling, but because it points to a
10:27:22 <fizzie> The first rule of the tautology club is the first of tautology club's rules.
10:29:08 <kingoffrance> the zeroeth rule of address+offset club is indices start at 0
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11:45:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quadril-Is * New user account
12:01:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67048&oldid=67041 * Quadril-Is * (+371) /* Introductions */
12:11:05 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67049&oldid=63905 * A * (+66) /* External resources */
13:38:49 <esowiki> [[Wordfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67050&oldid=43166 * Quadril-Is * (+70) /* Sample Hello World program */
13:54:35 <kspalaiologos> Whoever made the asmbf available using only one grave character
13:54:50 <kspalaiologos> Please make it pipe stuff thru labels.pl before
13:55:49 <int-e> `url bin/bfasm
13:55:50 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/bfasm
13:56:24 <kspalaiologos> ?
13:56:36 <kspalaiologos> bfasm is a program
13:56:44 <kspalaiologos> asmbf is the wrapper and command
13:56:48 <int-e> `url bin/asmbf
13:56:49 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/asmbf
13:57:18 <kspalaiologos> Could you edit it for me? I'm on mobile
13:57:32 <kspalaiologos> And it's quite laggy one
13:57:58 <kspalaiologos> Just add labels.pl in pipe chain before tr
13:58:35 <int-e> `sled bin/asmbf//s/bfasm/lables.pl | bfasm/
13:58:36 <HackEso> bin/asmbf//print_args_or_input "$@" |tr / \\n | lables.pl | bfasm
13:59:29 <int-e> uhm
13:59:35 <wib_jonas> lables?
13:59:38 <kspalaiologos> Mistake
13:59:42 <kspalaiologos> Labels
13:59:46 <kspalaiologos> And before tr
13:59:48 <int-e> yeah... on it
14:00:08 <int-e> `sled bin/asmbf//s/lables/labels/
14:00:16 <HackEso> bin/asmbf//print_args_or_input "$@" |tr / \\n | labels.pl | bfasm
14:00:24 <kspalaiologos> Perfect
14:00:26 <kspalaiologos> Thanks
14:00:49 <kspalaiologos> `asmbf @hello/jmp %hello
14:00:50 <HackEso> ​+>+[>>>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<[-]>[-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<[>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
14:01:08 <kspalaiologos> Fancy infinite loop, seems like it works
14:01:12 <wib_jonas> by the way
14:01:18 <int-e> at least "lables" was a genuine typo... identifying asmbf and bfasm was a real brain fart
14:01:22 <wib_jonas> `hello m
14:01:23 <HackEso> Hello, World.
14:01:24 <wib_jonas> `hello
14:01:25 <HackEso> hello, world
14:01:29 <wib_jonas> `@ fungot hello m
14:01:30 <fungot> wib_jonas: what is t? i recognize the word :p that means i will have 128 general purpose registers
14:01:30 <HackEso> fungot: Hello, World.
14:01:33 <wib_jonas> `@ fungot hello
14:01:33 <fungot> wib_jonas: instead of hte redirectee each prime but they both seem fast enough that no one has
14:01:34 <HackEso> No output.
14:01:39 <kspalaiologos> int-e, lol
14:01:40 <wib_jonas> bin/@ is weird
14:01:55 <kspalaiologos> Is this a bot?
14:02:05 <kspalaiologos> I mean, fungot
14:02:06 <fungot> kspalaiologos: ( when was the last you saw? henderson's functional fnord, or more then likely, use both hands for it...
14:02:18 <int-e> fungot is a bot
14:02:19 <wib_jonas> `? fungot
14:02:20 <fungot> wib_jonas: oh yes for no caps lock, no arrow keys... instead of binary
14:02:21 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
14:02:26 <kspalaiologos> Well
14:02:28 <kspalaiologos> Fine
14:02:38 <wib_jonas> see also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungot
14:02:43 <int-e> `? zzo38
14:02:44 <HackEso> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
14:03:02 <kspalaiologos> Wait a second
14:03:07 <kspalaiologos> A bot in befunge?
14:03:17 <wib_jonas> on a t-shirt
14:03:20 <kspalaiologos> Is there source available?
14:03:31 <int-e> ^source
14:03:31 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
14:03:40 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: yes, the source is sold on a t-shirt
14:03:44 <kspalaiologos> It's awesome
14:03:51 <int-e> oh, wow, my brain remembered something correctly *marks day on calendar*
14:04:08 <wib_jonas> `datei
14:04:09 <HackEso> 2019-11-15 14:04:09.093 +0000 UTC November 15 Friday 2019-W46-5
14:04:14 <int-e> wib_jonas: thanks
14:04:17 <kspalaiologos> Pff
14:04:30 <wib_jonas> where's the link to the webshop with the t-shirt?
14:04:32 <wib_jonas> `? shirt
14:04:33 <HackEso> shirt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:04:34 <wib_jonas> `? t-shirt
14:04:35 <HackEso> t-shirt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:04:35 <wib_jonas> `? tee
14:04:37 <HackEso> tee? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:04:39 <wib_jonas> hmm
14:04:44 <int-e> I don't remember any t-shirts
14:04:58 <int-e> But of course that doesn't mean anything.
14:05:23 <wib_jonas> I think at least one exists, but possibly not sold from a webshop, but made as a one-time item
14:05:49 <wib_jonas> there's no tattoo version yet, but there are several other tattoos related to golf or esolang or IOCCC
14:06:08 <fizzie> Yeah, I printed one for myself through a print-your-own-design shop I had a coupon for.
14:06:22 <kspalaiologos> ``asmbf <<<"in_ r1/in_ r2/add r1, r2/out r1" > stuff && bfi stuff <<<"00"
14:06:23 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `asmbf: not found
14:06:25 <fizzie> Turned out pretty nice, even if I say so myself.
14:06:37 <wib_jonas> fizzie: have you already merged the recent bugfix onto the shirt?
14:06:51 <kspalaiologos> `` asmbf <<<"in_ r1/in_ r2/add r1, r2/out r1" > stuff && bfi stuff <<<"00"
14:06:53 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: bfi: command not found
14:07:07 <kspalaiologos> Really? I installed it
14:07:09 <kspalaiologos> Yesterday
14:07:16 <kspalaiologos> Where's it gone
14:07:26 <wib_jonas> fizzie: and do you wash it inside-out so that the print lasts longer? I never do that with t-shirts
14:07:57 <kspalaiologos> `` whereis egobfi
14:07:58 <HackEso> egobfi:
14:08:17 <kspalaiologos> `` whereis egobfi8
14:08:18 <HackEso> egobfi8:
14:08:26 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I've not been doing that either. It seems to be pretty durable. Also, I only use it on special occasions.
14:08:45 <kspalaiologos> `` ls /asmbf-v1.1.1/
14:08:46 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/asmbf-v1.1.1/': No such file or directory
14:08:59 <kspalaiologos> `` ls asmbf-v1.1.1/
14:09:00 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'asmbf-v1.1.1/': No such file or directory
14:09:57 <int-e> `` ls tmp
14:09:58 <HackEso> a.c \ a.out \ as-encoding \ asmbf-1.1.1 \ banana.txt \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ hexdump.hex \ input.brachylog \ jeval.whatis \ just \ out \ OUT \ out.a \ out.a.hd \ out.a.xxd \ paste \ single-word-character-names \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ test.b \ test.sh \ tmp.txt \ v1.1.1.tar.gz
14:10:05 <fizzie> Also, please put temporary files (like "stuff") in either /tmp/ or tmp/ (aka /hackenv/tmp/).
14:10:29 <int-e> maybe `` should change its working directory to tmp?
14:10:38 <int-e> though that will cause all sorts of confusion ;)
14:11:11 <fizzie> The former is truly ephemeral (only for the execution of the current command), while the latter is persistent but unversioned.
14:11:13 <wib_jonas> int-e: that will cause all sorts of bugs
14:11:16 <wib_jonas> int-e: see the chat log
14:11:45 <int-e> wait, actual bugs?
14:11:47 <wib_jonas> int-e: bin/\? and bin/learn still use relative paths. I'll fix those, but I can't fix everything. too many programs assume that the pwd is /hackenv
14:12:09 <int-e> yeah
14:12:13 <int-e> and users :)
14:12:24 <kspalaiologos> Can we make a loop device
14:12:37 <wib_jonas> we could perhaps change .hgignore to ignore files directly in /hackenv , or remove write permission from /hackenv so you can't create files there, but those would probably cause other problems
14:12:39 <kspalaiologos> So some people don't even have to use temp files
14:12:49 <int-e> (And obviously I wouldn't touch the default for a plain `. But then moving from ` to `` would cause friction...)
14:13:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: new best practice: if you're making executables for HackE?o that look up files under /hackenv , make it look them up relative to ${HACKENV-/hackenv}/ rather than relative to the working directory
14:14:10 <fizzie> Most of the time you can use pipes instead of temporary files. I don't see how loop devices would improve matters.
14:14:19 <esowiki> [[BrainCurry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67051&oldid=67044 * SergeJohanns * (+1) Fixed link
14:14:35 <int-e> `` echo $PATH
14:14:36 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
14:14:56 <fizzie> In particular, bash <(...) syntax can help.
14:15:37 <fizzie> `` echo <(echo foo); cat <(echo bar)
14:15:38 <HackEso> ​/dev/fd/63 \ bar
14:16:11 <int-e> Which shell pioneered that one? I thought bash got it from zsh...
14:16:42 <fizzie> Maybe? I'm not too familiar with other shells.
14:17:04 <wib_jonas> I know some people want to avoid temp files, but I think it's a bad habit that remains from old operating systems that couldn't cache files properly
14:17:09 <wib_jonas> I think it's a bad practice
14:17:13 <fizzie> I did used to use tcsh for some years, and university machines defaulted to zsh.
14:17:14 <wib_jonas> just create temp files
14:17:39 <wib_jonas> although since /tmp and /dev/shm
14:17:49 <int-e> wib_jonas: temp files have the shared namespace issue wrt to other processes and users
14:17:59 <wib_jonas> and /var/tmp aren't writable in HackEso, it might make sense to set some environment variables to point to the absolute path of a temp directory
14:18:14 * int-e likes pipes.
14:18:18 <fizzie> /tmp is writable.
14:18:43 <fizzie> It's what you should be using for temporary files within a single command.
14:19:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: use mkdir then to create a temp directory that nobody else uses
14:20:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: I recommend mkdir specifically because it's always atomic, two processes can't create the same directory twice successfully, as opposed to open with O_EXCL which is supposed to be atomic like that but there are bugs involving nfs
14:20:19 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I see
14:20:29 <wib_jonas> so /tmp is writable but doesn't persist after a command?
14:20:30 <wib_jonas> that's useful
14:20:37 <fizzie> /tmp is a tmpfs inside the UML.
14:20:47 <esowiki> [[BrainCurry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67052&oldid=67051 * SergeJohanns * (+25) Added Category
14:20:57 <wib_jonas> that could work then
14:21:02 <int-e> `ls /tmp
14:21:03 <HackEso> No output.
14:21:08 <int-e> `` ls -a /tmp
14:21:09 <HackEso> ​. \ ..
14:21:42 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; hello > /tmp/Z-k3EuobYg4s; echo next:; cat /tmp/Z-k3EuobYg4s
14:21:43 <HackEso> next: \ hello, world
14:21:51 <wib_jonas> yeah, it's writable. sorry.
14:22:06 <wib_jonas> why is /dev/shm not writable by the way?
14:22:21 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; hello > /dev/shm/Z-k3EuobYg4s; echo next:; cat /dev/shm/Z-k3EuobYg4s
14:22:22 <HackEso> bash: /dev/shm/Z-k3EuobYg4s: Read-only file system
14:23:12 <fizzie> It's just not mounted.
14:23:21 <fizzie> So it falls into the ro /.
14:24:05 <fizzie> `` echo $HOME $HACKENV # There are also these.
14:24:07 <HackEso> ​/tmp /hackenv
14:24:16 <fizzie> But I should probably also set... is it TMPDIR or TEMPDIR? I can never remember.
14:24:35 <kingoffrance> theres various "mktemp" commands to attempt to avoid "how to safely create a temp file/dir"; i think openbsd started it, then someone made a "portable" version; i think it really it just calls mktemp() instead of whatever c89 is
14:24:54 <kingoffrance> s/attempt to avoid/& historical problems with/
14:25:08 <kingoffrance> but for all i know, some "mkdir" might have such features "built-in"
14:25:38 <kingoffrance> (or, that might be backwards, c89 has a not-really-secure mktemp() , and mktemp command calls some better one)
14:26:06 <kingoffrance> s/calls/& and/or has one bundled with it/
14:26:08 <wib_jonas> fizzie: yes, I already edited some of my programs to use $HACKENV, and I want to edit the programs related to wisdom and quote and learning in the future
14:26:29 <wib_jonas> fizzie: there are a ton of different env-vars about temporary directories. TMP, TEMP, etc
14:26:35 <wib_jonas> every program uses them in a different way
14:28:45 <kingoffrance> openbsd/netbsd/freebsd i think also optionally (maybe stock now) do per-user "private /tmp" nowadays, dunno about linux; and thats like the classic dir you set "sticky" bit on
14:31:18 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; \' "hey, hey"
14:31:19 <HackEso> nl: quotes: No such file or directory
14:33:12 <wib_jonas> `python3 -cn="bin/allquotes"; a=open(n,"rb").read(); a=a.replace(b'quotes',b'"${HACKENV-/hackenv}/quotes"'); open(n,"wb").write(a)
14:33:14 <HackEso> No output.
14:33:16 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; \' "hey, hey"
14:33:17 <HackEso> 728) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
14:33:28 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; allquotes | tail -n1
14:33:29 <HackEso> 1335) <shachaf> The domain is public, but what's the codomain?
14:33:34 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; \"
14:33:35 <HackEso> 1003) <kmc> LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System \ 1226) <Taneb> I need to get out of my habit of eating business cards...
14:33:44 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; quote Taneb
14:33:45 <HackEso> 383) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 388) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 389) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 395) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You
14:34:06 <fizzie> For the record, the way filesystems work on HackEso is: it uses the umlbox --base-mounts flag (which mounts /usr, /bin, /sbin, /lib, /lib32, /lib64, /etc/alternatives and /dev as read-only 'hostfs' mounts from the host system), then adds three custom mounts (read-write /hackenv, read-only /hackenv/.hg on top of that, and the hackbot lib directory for the 'limits' script), and finally umlbox itself
14:34:09 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd tmp; q st
14:34:11 <HackEso> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 8) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes
14:34:12 <fizzie> unconditionally mounts a tmpfs on /tmp, proc on /proc and sysfs on /sys.
14:34:20 <fizzie> (This would all be in the hypothetical HackEso manual, presumably.)
14:34:35 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I can guess most of that, because I can list mounts
14:35:06 <fizzie> The lib thing explains the otherwise slightly odd /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib which also leaks a path out of the host. :/
14:35:20 <fizzie> (Well, all of the hostfs mounts do that.)
14:37:15 <wib_jonas> does anyone happen to know what bin/\?h is supposed to do?
14:38:41 <wib_jonas> I know that bin/\?\? accesses the parallel universe wisdom database in tmflry
14:39:02 <wib_jonas> `?? cat
14:39:03 <HackEso> A cat is an animal with four legs. It's nice to pet, especially when it's a baby cat, called a kitten. Or it's the unix "cat" command. It takes a filename (or many) and prints the contents of that (those) file(s).
14:39:04 <wib_jonas> `? cat
14:39:05 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
14:40:04 <fizzie> It's supposed to invoke \? with a special logic to add extra 'h's in words in a manner I can't quite remember the source of.
14:40:29 <wib_jonas> ok...
14:40:37 <wib_jonas> it doesn't seem to do that, but maybe it was supposed to
14:40:53 <wib_jonas> `wehlcohme
14:40:55 <fizzie> It's missing a \, so the '?' in it presumably expands to all one-character commands.
14:40:55 <HackEso> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: <https://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/>. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn EhFneht ohr DAhLneht.)
14:41:17 <fizzie> It's a little bit less h-heavy than that. But yeah, maybe same roots.
14:41:47 <fizzie> It might be just barely possible ?h was added when ? was the only single-character command, though that seems unlikely. I don't know if it's ever worked.
14:42:37 <fizzie> Oh, there's also bin/?hh and that's actually been fixed.
14:42:46 <fizzie> `?hh welcome
14:42:48 <HackEso> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: <https://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/>. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn EhFneht ohr DAhLneht.)
14:43:00 <int-e> Hmm https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-01-25.html#lzn ff.
14:43:00 <wib_jonas> fizzie: or when it was the alphabetically first single-character command in New Zealand locale order
14:43:26 <int-e> prototyped by fizzie, implemented by shachaf
14:46:11 <fizzie> `sled bin/?h//s|^|\\|
14:46:14 <HackEso> bin/?h//\? "$@" | perl -pe 's/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])\b/$1h$2/ig'
14:46:22 <fizzie> `?h welcome
14:46:23 <HackEso> Welcome to the internationahl huhb fohr esoterihc programming language design and deployment! Fohr more informatiohn, check ouht ouhr wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Fohr the othehr kind ohf esoterica, try #esoterihc ohn EFneht ohr DALneht.)
14:46:27 <fizzie> Anyway.
14:46:36 <wib_jonas> nice
14:46:41 <wib_jonas> `??h Tanebventions
14:46:42 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ??h: not found
14:46:46 <wib_jonas> `?h tanebventions
14:46:47 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metahr, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46biht, progress, sanity, the huhg, Italiahn, the grace periohd, the limerick, ruihn, and thihs sentence. See also tanebventions: maths ohr tanebventions: foods. He nevehr invents anything involving sehx.
14:47:31 <fizzie> With the \b it's a little picky, you have to have a vowel-consonant pair at the end of the word.
14:50:53 <wib_jonas> ``` grep -lw quotes bin/* # I'll have to check these
14:50:54 <HackEso> bin/addquote \ bin/allquotes \ bin/delquote \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/qc \ bin/quotenums \ bin/tclkit \ bin/units \ bin/whoq
14:50:59 <wib_jonas> and then the ones that refer to wisdom
14:52:55 <wib_jonas> hmm, fixing addquote and delquote are trickier because to test them, I have to add a quote and delete one
14:53:21 <fizzie> "Just run the test suite."
14:55:27 <wib_jonas> is there a test quote for the test suite?
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14:56:06 <fizzie> I don't think there is.
14:56:30 <fizzie> I have a local "DevHackEso" instance I use when doing changes to the actual code (not the "userland"), but it's a bit of a pain to set up locally.
14:56:58 <wib_jonas> I'll just add a quote and delete the same quote
14:57:06 <wib_jonas> twice
15:02:18 <fizzie> Another HackEso oddity: /dev is actually the host system's real /dev. It works out pretty well in practice, because it's inside a container with a really sparse /dev. But now that they've brought back the ghost of devfs as devtmpfs, maybe that'd be an option. Before, you'd either have had to manually populate a static /dev or run udev.
15:18:18 <wib_jonas> ``` grep -lw wisdom bin/*
15:18:19 <HackEso> bin/? \ bin/cwlprits \ bin/disce \ bin/dowg \ bin/footnote \ bin/forget \ bin/grwp \ bin/gwn \ bin/gwni \ bin/howg \ bin/hwrl \ bin/lastwisdoms \ bin/leann \ bin/learn \ bin/ls \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/plwd \ bin/slashlearn \ bin/slwd \ bin/w \ bin/wdit \ bin/whoops \ bin/widsom \ bin/wisdom \ bin/wisdöm \ bin/wiseguys \ bin/wrl
15:18:32 <wib_jonas> ``` grep -lw tmflry bin/*
15:18:33 <HackEso> bin/?? \ bin/mislearn \ bin/tomfoolery
15:18:41 <wib_jonas> of course some of those are false positives
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17:13:58 <arseniiv_> hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,
17:14:14 <arseniiv_> (I actually have nothing to say but I want to say hey)
17:14:18 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
17:15:18 <APic>
17:15:33 <arseniiv> also I was writing a bunch of lame Haskell code yesterday and maybe I will continue today too and then show you to have much criticism!
17:15:55 <arseniiv> naming things is often a mess
17:18:01 <arseniiv> they say if you can’t figure out a name for a code thingy, better do without. but I think there are a big case of false negative here for people who just have a bad day for language or maybe they are non-natives even worse than me
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18:33:40 <b_jonas> hey, hey arseniiv
18:33:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hey,
18:34:11 <b_jonas> yes, naming is hard, but I think you should still name partial results
18:34:16 <fizzie> Hey, listen. (Stay awhile and listen?)
18:36:37 <b_jonas> yes, that's what the fairy of the boy without a fairy says
18:38:54 <fizzie> And the parenthetical part is what Deckard Cain says.
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20:31:11 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67053 * CMinusMinus * (+1033) Created page with "'''StuLa''' ('''Stu'''pid '''La'''nguage) is a programming language, made by [[User:CMinusMinus]] in 2019. It has variables, import options, input and output, 3 main variable..."
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20:33:35 <arseniiv> is there a common factoring of this functions into a couple of well-known ones?:
20:33:35 <arseniiv> h :: (a, Maybe b) -> Maybe (a, b)
20:33:35 <arseniiv> h (a, Just b) = Just (a, b)
20:33:35 <arseniiv> h (a, Nothing) = Nothing
20:33:36 <arseniiv> I think there should be but I’m yet to find out
20:34:54 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67054&oldid=67053 * CMinusMinus * (+147)
20:35:26 <arseniiv> hm let me try `sequence` again. Yesterday I found out it’s quite a magic one
20:36:20 <arseniiv> bingo! `sequence` saves the day again!
20:36:34 <arseniiv> h = sequence!
20:36:49 <arseniiv> thank you for reading this anyway
20:40:06 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67055&oldid=67054 * CMinusMinus * (+384)
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20:52:24 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67057&oldid=67056 * CMinusMinus * (+69)
20:55:55 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I would have recommended that you ask in #haskell .
20:55:56 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67058&oldid=67057 * CMinusMinus * (+354)
20:56:19 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67059&oldid=67035 * CMinusMinus * (+11) /* My Languages */
20:57:02 <arseniiv> b_jonas: reasonable
20:57:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67060&oldid=67047 * CMinusMinus * (+12) /* S */
20:58:04 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67061&oldid=67059 * CMinusMinus * (-71)
20:59:32 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67062&oldid=67058 * CMinusMinus * (+62)
21:07:12 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67063&oldid=67062 * CMinusMinus * (+220)
21:07:47 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67064&oldid=67063 * CMinusMinus * (-51)
21:10:46 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67065&oldid=67064 * CMinusMinus * (+48)
21:11:05 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67066&oldid=67065 * CMinusMinus * (+26)
21:14:09 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67067&oldid=67066 * CMinusMinus * (+137)
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21:28:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CMinusMinus * uploaded "[[File:StuLa Logo.png]]"
21:32:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CMinusMinus * uploaded "[[File:Official StuLa Logo.png]]"
21:33:52 <esowiki> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67070&oldid=67067 * CMinusMinus * (+40)
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21:35:48 <zzo38> The reason I use a Raspberry Pi computer is because my wired internet doesn't work, but Raspberry Pi has wireless internet
21:36:38 <zzo38> Also, I tried to insntall the more complete vim system but it says 404 error
21:37:07 <zzo38> I have a Compact Flash card to transfer files between these two computers
21:41:08 <zzo38> This computer doesn't have xclip either
21:41:20 <shachaf> Do you need xclip?
21:42:00 <kmc> zzo38: you can also get a USB wireless adapter
21:42:05 <zzo38> Well, I tried to install xclip and don't get a 404 error for that at least
21:42:19 <kmc> there are some very tiny ones that stick out only a few mm from the port and can be left in 24/7
21:42:36 <zzo38> kmc: I have one, and have tried that but it doesn't work. My computer recognizes it, and it lists the access point, and it says connected but then it doesn't work.
21:42:51 <kmc> oh, that is too bad
21:43:14 <shachaf> Hmm, CDCL is probably the single biggest improvement I can make to a solver, I guess?
21:44:07 <shachaf> I implemented 2WL but -- surprise? -- it doesn't do much good for the 3SAT instances I've been testing on.
21:44:30 <shachaf> I assume it'll be more useful with CDCL since the learnt claws will be bigger.
21:44:55 <zzo38> This computer also has a not very good keyboard from Microsoft. Many keys are missing, including home, end, insert, scroll lock, and the entire number pad
21:46:02 <esowiki> [[EsoPost]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67071 * Zzo38 * (+4605) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:2019]] An EsoPost program consists of a sequence of operators. At the beginning of the program, all operators in the program are pushed to th..."
21:49:48 <fizzie> I used to have a non-flexible USB wifi dongle that, in the university lecture hall, only worked if I kept the laptop at a 90 degree angle, so that the stick was vertical.
21:50:02 <fizzie> In retrospect, maybe I could've just used a short USB extension cable.
21:51:57 <zzo38> What are you thinking of now I posted the new esolang "EsoPost"? (That is why I wanted xclip, it is convenient when I want to copy a file to the wiki, and I wrote the file on other computer)
22:10:21 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:12:42 <zzo38> Do you like ZZ Zero?
22:14:31 <zzo38> Deduplication {X} Instant ;; X target nonbasic permanents are legendary until end of turn. ;; Cycling {2} ;; Flashback {XX}
22:15:37 <zzo38> Historical Library {4} Legendary Artifact ;; {2}, {T}: Put the bottom card of your graveyard into your hand. Use only as a sorcery.
22:15:42 <zzo38> Do you have a comment of this?
22:21:49 <zzo38> Also, do you know if it is possible to use Usenet (and possibly also Unusenet) with amateur radio?
22:26:11 <arseniiv> my fancy write-only code about constructor inhabitedness: https://repl.it/repls/OpaqueCrazyStructures
22:27:01 <b_jonas> `?h time cube
22:27:02 <HackEso> EARTH HAhS 4 CORNEhR SIMULTANEOUhS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IhN ONLY 24 HOUhR ROTATIOhN. 4 CORNEhR DAYhS, CUBEhS 4 QUAhD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Ihs Liehs. Navehl Connects 4 Cornehr 4s. Gohd Ihs Born Ohf A Mothehr - She Left Belly B. Signature. Youhr dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 othehr dayhs) Time to noht fouhl (already wrong) bible time. Lie thaht corrupts earth you educatehd stupihd fools.
22:27:03 <b_jonas> `?h gene ray
22:27:04 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray ihs the Greatest Philosophehr, and ihs the Greatest Mathematiciahn. Cubihc Harmonics. Only Cubihc Harmonics cahn save humanity. Cubihc Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-houhr Cubihc Day debunks 1-day unnaturahl gohd. 96-houhr day willdisprove disunity gohd. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word Gohd will destroy the USA.
22:27:32 <b_jonas> "you educatehd stupihd fools"
22:28:04 <zzo38> arseniiv: Do you have a direct download link?
22:28:41 <arseniiv> zzo38: I’ll make a minute addition and then I’ll post it somewhere
22:29:03 <shachaf> `doag quotes
22:29:05 <HackEso> 11995:2019-10-31 <arseniïv> addquote <shachaf> The domain is public, but what\'s the codomain? \ 11992:2019-10-24 <ais52̈3> delquote 232 \ 11991:2019-10-24 <ais52̈3> delquote 1056 \ 11990:2019-10-24 <ais52̈3> delquote 1271 \ 11986:2019-10-24 <kspalaiologös> addquote <lf94> kspalaiologos: yes, it\'s much more enjoyable sitting in #esoteric than chiselling 99 bottles of beer into a rock. \ 11967:2019-10-13 <oerjän> addquote <kspalaiolog
22:29:11 <shachaf> Was that in /msg or something?
22:31:27 <arseniiv> zzo38: would hatebin link be okay or you’d prefer something more direct? (but I’m not done yet anyway)
22:31:44 <zzo38> I would prefer a more direct link that I can get plain text
22:32:44 <zzo38> That ought to be the working, rather than with HTML and CSS and JavaScripts and Flash and whatever else, just the plain text if the file you want to post is a plain text file.
22:44:07 <zzo38> New version of ZZ Zero: https://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php?s=a278ed117b9a2090a6f1ef0c16655cb1&app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=3801
22:47:21 <esowiki> [[EsoPost]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67072&oldid=67071 * Zzo38 * (+0)
22:54:05 <arseniiv> zzo38: something like that?: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/arseniiv/af1835660331456b4d8e2df7337ebe0f/raw/7e88029b33d3e685dda7cc04a0ad497d30320755/InhabitedConstructors.hs
22:55:10 <zzo38> Yes, that is good
23:02:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
23:24:15 <arseniiv> uh, I can’t get what I did wrong using ShowS… it should be trivial but I get strange results
23:33:19 <arseniiv> I overestimated mconcat
23:59:34 <arseniiv> ah, it was meant for Endo to be used there
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