←2019-12-15 2019-12-16 2019-12-17→ ↑2019 ↑all
00:30:31 <oerjan> . o O ( next freefall better have a fan picture of florence eating soup )
00:32:02 <oerjan> possibly during a previous date
00:33:05 <oerjan> oh i missed the previous one
00:37:57 * kmc reads about ZZT-OOP
00:38:01 <kmc> seems pretty esoteric
00:39:27 <kmc> > ZZT-OOP is restrictive, but in a fun way. Because the language was only meant for simple adventure games, code that would be easy in other languages becomes a challenge in ZZT-OOP. However, some of us live for such challenges, and although it won't get you a date or a job, being able to code complex things - a fractal generation program, for example - using only an archaic game creation system is rather
00:39:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
00:39:33 <kmc> impressive.
00:39:37 <kmc> i think under the right circumstances one could get a date or a job this way
00:47:03 <kmc> the ability to zap/restore labels, even in another object's program is interesting
00:49:25 <kmc> do all objects execute in lockstep?
00:58:32 <zzo38> Yes, ZZT-OOP is working like that. Have you used ZZT-OOP?
00:59:23 <int-e> oerjan: spoilers... but this doesn't sound like Florence will be eating soup any time soon
00:59:53 <int-e> oerjan: I believe we've seen her lap water from a bowl though?
01:00:02 <int-e> oerjan: I expect soup would be the same.
01:00:34 <zzo38> Although making stuff in ZZT involves more than just ZZT-OOP; there is also programming the stats and board configuration, including many things not possible using the built-in editor (you will have to use external editors, such as KevEdit or ZZTQED, for some things)
01:03:13 <kmc> zzo38: I haven't used ZZT or ZZT-OOP yet
01:03:32 <kmc> what sort of things are not possible using the built-in editor?
01:06:20 <zzo38> Preset laser beams, abnormal directions, abnormal speeds, statless pieces that are normally stat or vice versa, preset bullets/stars/beams, putting arbitrary elements under stats, setting the starting health/ammo/gems/torches/keys, and many other things.
01:09:38 <oerjan> int-e: you're just not using your imagination tdnh
01:11:42 <int-e> oerjan: there won't be another noodle incident.
01:12:13 <oerjan> also i said fan picture
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01:42:56 <Lykaina> ever hear of something called toki pona?
01:42:58 <Lykaina> i want to learn it
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01:48:40 <kmc> Lykaina: looks interesting
01:53:09 <b_jonas> Lykaina: yes, and I decided it's a really bad idea
01:54:00 <b_jonas> (or at least it's not an idea that I like)
01:54:17 <b_jonas> (could be worth as an esoteric experiment for other people, just to see why it doesn't work)
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02:08:59 <Kaynato> Is there any good way to prove something *isn't* TC? Hmm
02:12:50 <b_jonas> Kaynato: the most common way is to prove that you can translate the program of the language to finite state pushdown automata
02:13:18 <b_jonas> plus there are some more trivial special cases that are easier to prove
02:13:26 <oerjan> prove that you can predict its equivalent of the halting problem
02:14:54 <b_jonas> in Slashes, what is the simplest way to write an infinite loop that fetches a new pattern infinitely many times?
02:15:21 <b_jonas> not necessarily a different pattern, just a new pattern, it doesn't loop within a single substitution, such as a substitution with empty pattern
02:16:19 <oerjan> as far as i know you need a quine-like construction once you have more than one substitution involved
02:17:01 <b_jonas> Kaynato: oh, and there are programming languages that can only do primitive recursive loops, but that comes up less often
02:17:02 <oerjan> but maybe you could do a special case just for an infinite loop
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02:17:30 <Kaynato> Ahh... I'm not entirely sure if that's the case for this one
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02:21:30 <Kaynato> I'd look more at treating daoyu as a FSPA but the self-modification and obtuse data structure make it ... problematic to wrap my head around
02:24:16 <b_jonas> oh, I should check Rosetta Code, maybe it has such a program
02:24:35 <b_jonas> Kaynato: the usual abbreviate is PDA for some reason
02:24:42 <b_jonas> as in Push-Down Automaton
02:24:45 <Kaynato> ah, thanks
02:25:11 <b_jonas> note though that that can refer to both the deterministic version and the nondeterministic version, which are different
02:26:06 <b_jonas> nope, can't find anything about /// on Rosetta Code
02:26:36 <oerjan> it may be hard to search for
02:26:43 <b_jonas> yeah
02:26:58 <b_jonas> but they usually have an index page for every language
02:27:18 <b_jonas> s/every/each/
02:28:59 <b_jonas> I'd like to note that such an infinite loop in Fuun DNA is much simpler because, even though it only does one substitution for each pattern-replacement that it reads, the pattern can wildcard match and the replacement can copy matched parts, so it can just duplicate whatever is ahead if it, leading to a simple print<< x2 style quine
02:30:29 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if anyone ever made a quine in Fuun DNA+RNA, one that outputs its DNA code graphically
02:38:00 <fizzie> int-e: For fun, bolted a quick disassembler to the Intcode interpreter and added labels and comments to my day 15 input. Was actually relatively straightforward.
02:38:34 <int-e> fizzie: try it on my hello world program (on the wiki) :)
02:38:57 <int-e> (it's actually tame)
02:39:42 <int-e> (there is self-modification, but only on immediate parameters)
02:44:11 <fizzie> It outputs http://ix.io/24zb and then barfs on 29 being an "illegal opcode".
02:44:53 <int-e> which is fine because that's all data
02:45:02 <int-e> > ord 'e' - ord 'H'
02:45:06 <lambdabot> 29
02:45:59 <fizzie> Oh, the 0 between 'l' and the other 'l' is also the 0 for the jump target?
02:46:02 <int-e> though I guess it could start outputing 'db <nnn>' stuff.
02:46:03 <fizzie> How economical.
02:46:08 <int-e> fizzie: yes.
02:46:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's probably what it would do if it was a real disassembler.
02:46:59 <fizzie> FWIW, there was exactly one instance of self-modification in the puzzle input, and it was on "setlt <...> #N VAR" instruction, where it was used to do indirect addressing of memory.
02:47:04 <Kaynato> Is it dishonorable to respecify an esolang to make it TC on the grounds that otherwise, proving or disproving TC is a nightmare? :(
02:47:08 <fizzie> (To update the <...> part.)
02:47:34 <int-e> Kaynato: no
02:48:14 <Kaynato> after reimplementing daoyu with lazy data structures, SIFTS from before turned out to be hideous and a total horror
02:48:23 <int-e> Kaynato: However, if the TC status is uncertain it will probably attract more attention.
02:48:44 <int-e> (here)
02:48:46 <Kaynato> daoyu doesn't attract much attention, ahh
02:49:03 <Kaynato> !wiki Daoyu
02:49:23 <Kaynato> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Daoyu
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02:52:01 <Kaynato> I'm probably just wasting my time and energy trying to do things with it :s
02:55:15 <esowiki> [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67990&oldid=67989 * Kaynato * (+427) Annotate the running example
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03:06:39 <imode> never assume that.
03:10:37 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67991&oldid=64201 * Salpynx * (+616) /* Examples */ Hello World
03:11:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Minecraft Pistons Hello World.png]]"
03:13:53 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67993&oldid=67991 * Salpynx * (+118) /* Hello World */ Implemented in Minecraft pistons
03:15:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Pnp-xx.png]]"
03:20:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Pnp-split.png]]"
03:22:13 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67996&oldid=67993 * Salpynx * (+162) /* Infinite Loop */ Minecraft implementations of other simple examples
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06:14:32 <esowiki> [[User:12Me21]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67997&oldid=60102 * 12Me21 * (-761) Replaced content with "wish I had a BANCStar interpreter :("
07:07:24 <zzo38> How can you write zero with roman numbers?
07:11:12 <FireFly> I propose 'O'
07:11:30 <imode-ruby> there's no numeral for zero.
07:12:29 <zzo38> It is what I thought
07:12:49 <zzo38> (I do know how to write fractions with roman numbers, though.)
07:20:05 <kingoffrance> i see an "N" "NULLA" but you'd have to google to see where i saw that
07:20:57 <kingoffrance> (i might have done the "N" myself and it was specified some other way and i thought "N" was easier e.g. for ascii)
07:21:48 <kingoffrance> theres also ( vinculum that look like C and horizontally-reversed C, but i dont recall what those are used for; there are some variants from what i recall, whether nulla and vinculum's are used or not
07:22:29 <kingoffrance> i just used '(' and ')' for vinculums to specify in e.g. ascii
07:26:14 <kingoffrance> also, observe my local dialect "variant" use of apostrophe in vinculum's
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08:03:47 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67998&oldid=67984 * Hex96 * (+38) /* Tokens */
08:08:54 <esowiki> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67999&oldid=67998 * Hex96 * (+182) /* Example Programs */
08:18:59 <kingoffrance> im not sure, i vageuly recall nulla might be it is supposoed to look like O with / through it, aka "empty set" symbol; i could be way off
08:54:40 <b_jonas> `toroman 0
08:54:41 <HackEso> No output.
09:07:02 <b_jonas> `toroman 6270
09:07:04 <HackEso> Number too large
09:07:08 <b_jonas> hmm
09:07:12 <b_jonas> `toroman -1
09:07:13 <HackEso> I
09:07:16 <b_jonas> `toroman -20
09:07:17 <HackEso> XX
09:07:19 <b_jonas> `toroman 3.14
09:07:20 <HackEso> III
09:07:53 <b_jonas> this isn't a particularly robust script
09:08:06 <b_jonas> my excuse is that I basically lifted it off from a golf solution
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09:20:56 <zzo38> Yes, you can see it is not work with some stuff. (TeX will produce no output if you try to convert any zero or negative number into a roman number, and multiples of one thousand will always use M for each thousand.)
09:22:18 <zzo38> The "Game of XYZABCDE" series is numbered by roman numbers, so I try to figure how to name a prequel; I have Part I, and then the sequel is Part II, and after that is Part III and then Part IV. But, then you would have "part zero", although I suppose Part S (meaning half) can still be possible
09:25:38 <zzo38> (Same can be true of any other series of something that will be named by roman numbers.)
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09:26:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: does TeX do that with or without an error/warning message?
09:27:01 <zzo38> There is no error/warning message.
09:28:46 <zzo38> You can use \romannumeral-` to absorb the next character without interpreting it, which is sometimes useful in macros if the next character would be { or }
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09:45:36 <zzo38> There are many kind of "tricks" that can be made with TeX.
09:49:29 <zzo38> That is one of them (I forget where I read it). Another, that I think I made up by myself, is to use an insertion with alternating marks and penalties and then use \vsplit to extract the marks in the output routine; since \write will only work if a page is shipped out and will not preserve tokens exactly, using this other way can sometimes be helpful.
09:51:38 <zzo38> (Insertions are normally used for such things as footnotes, but can also be used for many other purposes, such as this.)
09:57:17 <zzo38> Appendix D of the TeXbook lists many kind of tricks possible with TeX, too.
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11:23:14 <kingoffrance> https://familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals theres a little info about "N" for "NULLA"
11:28:26 <kingoffrance> that page says the ( ) are called apostrophus, and vinculum are overlines or |, so whatever i read long ago was either confused, or they are somewhat interchangeable and i perhaps settled on input using ( ) for simplicity, but the number could be displayed as either ( ) or overlines, |, etc.
11:29:09 <kingoffrance> (i.e. i may have just chosen ( ) for simplicity of input, and called it "vinculum" on the theory i could output/display the overlines and/or | stuff )
11:31:14 <kingoffrance> (i.e. i probably wanted a standard ascii-like input format, user could pick their "output style")
11:32:21 <kingoffrance> s/ascii-like/subset of ascii/
12:03:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:12Me21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68000 * A * (+71) Created page with "[https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar There is a BANCStar interpreter.]"
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13:03:38 <cpressey> > let a = 3 in let b = a in let a = b + 3 in a
13:03:42 <lambdabot> 6
13:05:18 <cpressey> > let a = 3 in let a = a + 3 in a
13:05:23 <lambdabot> *Exception: <<loop>>
13:08:16 <myname> > let a = a in a
13:08:20 <lambdabot> *Exception: <<loop>>
13:13:49 <cpressey> letwreck
13:31:09 <Taneb> > let a = 3 in do a <- pure (a + 3); pure a
13:31:13 <lambdabot> error:
13:31:13 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M336512966164...
13:31:13 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show (m0 Integer))’ from being solved.
13:31:24 <Taneb> > let a = 3 in runIdentity $ do a <- pure (a + 3); pure a
13:31:28 <lambdabot> 6
13:31:37 <Taneb> The worst possible workaround!
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14:40:46 <rain1> terry tao is working on collatz problem
14:40:51 <rain1> https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2019/09/10/almost-all-collatz-orbits-attain-almost-bounded-values/
14:51:10 <rain1> i found a story to read: ted chiang short stories book
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16:20:12 <wib_jonas> `f2c 500
16:20:17 <HackEso> f2c? No such file or directory
16:20:22 <wib_jonas> `ftoc 500
16:20:25 <HackEso> 500.00°F = 260.00°C
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17:43:33 <arseniiv> `ctof -273.15
17:43:34 <HackEso> ​-273.15°C = -459.67°F
17:43:45 <arseniiv> `ctof -123456789
17:43:46 <HackEso> ​-123456789.00°C = -222222188.20°F
17:43:49 <arseniiv> wow
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18:15:25 <bunnyocto> aight. how many attempts do I need to write memcpy and memcmp correctly in assembly :D
18:16:18 <kmc> ah a nice exercise
18:16:21 <kmc> which architecture
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18:22:29 <bunnyocto> an esoteric one
18:27:24 <bunnyocto> but apparentely my assembler has a bug with address calculation
18:27:26 <bunnyocto> damnit
18:29:12 <bunnyocto> or I forgot an origin directive
18:29:28 <bunnyocto> or the assembler is ignoring the origin directive
18:31:40 <kmc> doh
18:36:08 <bunnyocto> ok. 1st attempt was a fail.
18:37:46 <rain1> what books are you reading?
18:55:54 <arseniiv> rain1: reading Egan stuff lately, mostly stories now, but several years ago I read novels like Schild’s ladder (that was actually a first book of his I read, and because of an acquaintance’s advice)
18:56:42 <arseniiv> though I think this one dive is almost completed now, I’ll resume then with webserials’ updates
18:57:47 <bunnyocto> the assembler produces wrong code :(
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19:04:04 <bunnyocto> http://codepad.org/zBkxEUhC <_ yeah all right no wonder
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19:26:36 <bunnyocto> kmc: http://codepad.org/53TtacHM <- there you go
19:37:24 <bunnyocto> (.l is a label, .x is an exported label)
19:37:33 <bunnyocto> (.adrN is "load address into register N")
19:37:45 <bunnyocto> (.xadrN is the same thing but for exported labels)
19:38:14 <bunnyocto> (push and pop require an explicit stack pointer register)
19:38:31 <bunnyocto> (so do call and ret)
19:38:59 <bunnyocto> (comparison jumps implicitly use rc for the target address)
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19:53:53 <bunnyocto> I guess one downside is that you can only load 32bit constants into ra,rb and rc.
19:54:01 <bunnyocto> otherwise you need a load plus a mov
19:57:46 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: re memcpy and memcmp, if it's for x86_64 or x86_32, get a well-written one from https://www.agner.org/optimize/#asmlib ; for other archs get them from gnu libc or libgcc, I don't know which one has it these days
19:58:10 <b_jonas> oh wait
19:58:18 <b_jonas> for an esoteric architecture
19:58:27 <b_jonas> yeah, then you might be out of luck, unless it's some well-known one
19:58:43 <b_jonas> rain1: Umberto Eco books right now
19:59:34 <rain1> oh yeah
19:59:42 <rain1> i think i read one about the pendulum
20:01:46 <b_jonas> I also have a Sapkowski book here, lined up for read later
20:07:28 <bunnyocto> well you could use ldw (load word) instead of ldb (load byte) and copy 4 bytes at a time
20:07:54 <bunnyocto> but as of now speed is not my concern :)
20:08:04 <bunnyocto> gotta get functionality running, optimization is for later
20:09:22 <bunnyocto> you could even use the push instruction for that I guess.
20:09:45 <bunnyocto> push x y is basically memory[x] = y; x += 4;
20:09:55 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: maybe make your compiler optimize copies of compile time known short length specifically, because that's the most common case. just make sure it works if you copy with the source and destination pointers being exactly equal.
20:17:07 <bunnyocto> don't have a compiler yet.
20:17:11 <bunnyocto> still working on the assembler
20:17:19 <bunnyocto> needs support for linking.
20:17:50 <bunnyocto> I'm working on a project I call bootstrap.
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20:19:08 <bunnyocto> It has the parts: create and implement a CPU. Implement an assembler, linker, disassembler. Implement an OS. Create and implement a "high level" language in assembly. Then create and implement it in said "high level language"
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20:22:24 <rain1> i ssthat nand to tetris?
20:23:32 <bunnyocto> ?
20:24:43 <bunnyocto> ah I see. "NAND to Tetris"
20:24:45 <bunnyocto> no. That's not it.
20:25:11 <bunnyocto> I've just always wanted to do this.
20:25:23 <bunnyocto> Maybe i'll go further and do some VHDL maybe
20:25:33 <bunnyocto> so that I can load it onto a nano FPGA or someting.
20:27:51 <bunnyocto> I have nothing better to do might I say
20:28:05 <bunnyocto> not at the moment at least.
20:28:26 <rain1> its a cool project
20:32:09 <b_jonas> bunnyocto: look at Magic-1 at least, to learn from other people's failures in such a project, and look at other projects he links to
20:42:33 <rain1> does anyone know tensor products of modules?
20:42:35 <rain1> how do I work out Q[x]/(x-1) (x)_Q Q[x]/(x+1) ?
20:43:08 <rain1> nvm i just realized its = Q[x]/((x-1) + (x+1))
21:07:56 <zzo38> I know some instruction sets have memcpy and/or memcmp are built in operations.
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21:13:17 <zzo38> Although some only have built-in memcmp to compare if it matches or not and not to determine the sort order.
21:14:46 <zzo38> Glulx has mcopy to copy a memory block (which may be overlapping), and it is possible to use the linearsearch opcode to check for matching or not matching memory blocks.
21:17:59 <zzo38> For example, you can write "linearsearch X,Length,Y,0,1,0,5,$" to check if the memory blocks at X and Y with the specified length are matching or not. (You can also use the linearsearch opcode to implement strlen, too.)
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21:36:09 <b_jonas> fungot, in English, what do you call it when a men's suit jacket has buttons in two parallel columns?
21:36:09 <fungot> b_jonas: hey... :) so gimp, emacs, java, assembler
21:43:12 <arseniiv> I always suspected emacs!
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22:30:55 <b_jonas> fungot: apparently they're called "double-breasted jacket"
22:30:55 <fungot> b_jonas: someone once said the jungle is at http://stream1.jungletrain.net:8000 do
22:31:12 <int-e> Oh, first hard AoC task.
22:32:35 <int-e> Also somewhat nasty...
22:34:51 <fizzie> I liked it, but it is kind of a trick.
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22:35:54 <fizzie> Predicting a lower-than-usual 2-star : 1-star ratio.
22:36:05 <int-e> Very plausible.
22:36:40 <b_jonas> oh right, stars
22:37:04 <b_jonas> I am a zero-star programmer, since I live in a city that's so bright even during the nights that I can't see any stars on the sky
22:37:18 <b_jonas> only the Moon, the Venus, and clouds
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22:37:25 <b_jonas> and lots of reflected city lights
22:37:32 <shachaf> Not even Orion?
22:37:56 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit
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22:38:12 <b_jonas> I can walk a few hundred meters to get to places where I can see the brighter stars
22:38:26 <b_jonas> but zero-star programmer sounds nicer
22:42:33 <int-e> fizzie: Now I'm wondering whether the periodicity of the input can be exploited. (I'm only exploiting a property of the offset, and I suspect that's kind of essential.)
22:45:45 <fizzie> I thought about that before coming up with the trick, but it seemed like (at least for an arbitrary digit) the least common multiple of the periodicity of the signal and the pattern (which I'm calling W for 'wavelet' in my commentary, incidentally) would be a pretty large number. So it wasn't at least an obvious speedup.
22:46:10 <fizzie> (I don't think all the example and the input offsets would have had the property if it wasn't intended to be done that way.)
22:46:30 <b_jonas> `? aoc
22:46:32 <HackEso> aoc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:47:27 <int-e> fizzie: Hmm. Maybe we have different approaches.
22:49:06 <b_jonas> `? advent of code
22:49:07 <HackEso> advent of code? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:49:43 <b_jonas> `slashlearn aoc/Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:49:45 <HackEso> Learned 'aoc/advent of code (aoc) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https:': adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:50:25 <b_jonas> what?
22:50:35 <b_jonas> oh darn
22:50:45 <int-e> `revert
22:50:46 <HackEso> Done.
22:50:58 <b_jonas> sorry, I'd have fixed it too
22:51:03 <int-e> `? slashlearn
22:51:04 <HackEso> slashlearn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:51:09 <int-e> `? le/rn
22:51:10 <b_jonas> two slashes
22:51:10 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
22:51:36 <int-e> Oh I thought it said something about preventing accidents...
22:53:39 <b_jonas> `slashlearn aoc//Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:53:42 <HackEso> Learned 'aoc': Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:53:44 <b_jonas> `? aof
22:53:45 <HackEso> aof? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:53:46 <b_jonas> `? aoc
22:53:47 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about".
22:59:14 <b_jonas> `? euclid
22:59:15 <HackEso> euclid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:02:50 <b_jonas> `slashlearn euclid//Euclid is a short geeky game in which the goal is to do Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions in as few steps as possible. It runs in the browser, found at "http://www.euclidthegame.com/". It was popular among #esoteric regulars in 2016-07.
23:02:52 <HackEso> Learned 'euclid': Euclid is a short geeky game in which the goal is to do Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions in as few steps as possible. It runs in the browser, found at "http://www.euclidthegame.com/". It was popular among #esoteric regulars in 2016-07.
23:04:26 <b_jonas> we should document these community fads
23:04:52 <shachaf> They're called "Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions" because they're constructions similar to the game Euclid?
23:05:44 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68001&oldid=59060 * Challenger5 * (-10) Simplify Turing machine
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23:09:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, or at least not the browser-based game. I have on my bookshelf Hajós's great reference book to elementary geometry, and in chapter 22 it introduces Euclidean compass and straightedge constructions. The book was published in 1960, so it definitely predates any browser-based games.
23:09:30 <b_jonas> Though of course the browser-based game could be just a modern implementation of an older game, just like how there are browser-based chess games.
23:12:41 <b_jonas> Ok, now I'm imagining children born in the 21st century who meet chess as a browser-based video game first, and are later astonished to find out that it's centuries old and used to be played with carved wooden pieces or steps sent in snail mail.
23:12:59 <b_jonas> Or the same about Go.
23:13:31 <b_jonas> Actually I think I even read an anecdote of that sort somewhere on the internet about Go.
23:15:09 <b_jonas> And unlike chess, compass and straightedge constructions make much more sense as a video game than on paper, because on paper your constructions get imprecise very quickly. You can get somewhat better if you're careful what steps you take, and if you know how to handle the tools like rulers as well as an architect, but then it's no longer the simple abstract system of compass and straightedge
23:15:15 <b_jonas> constructions.
23:17:25 <b_jonas> Obviously you could also say that typing is more convenient on a computerized word processors on a computer and printer than on electromechanical typewriters where you can edit text by cutting ticker tape, and that even that makes more sense than typing documents on a mechanical typewriter where you can make at most three or four copies at a time with carbon paper, and you have to retype the whole thing
23:17:31 <b_jonas> if you need more than that many copies.
23:20:18 <arseniiv> oh yeah
23:20:56 <arseniiv> I used a mechanical typewriter for fun for a time, I never made anything neat enough
23:21:14 <arseniiv> and there were oh so many typos
23:21:43 <arseniiv> and I beaten all my fingers off
23:21:48 <b_jonas> I played with two mechanical typewriters when I was young, just for playing: a normal one and one of those toy ones that you buy for children and aren't suitable for real applications because IT DOESN'T HAVE LOWERCASE LETTERS;
23:22:11 <arseniiv> wow :D
23:22:37 <fizzie> Suitable only for angry applications.
23:22:52 <zzo38> I would sometimes use a typewriter for typing an address on an envelope.
23:22:53 <b_jonas> and then, much later, I used a more modern electronic typewriter with hundreds of bytes of RAM buffer so you can set it up to not immediately type a line so you can backspace errors without any physical remains, to learn typing
23:23:05 <arseniiv> now you remind me what traditions there were for typing roman numerals on cyrillic-only typewriters (almost all of them here)
23:23:08 <b_jonas> though of course that wasn't when I really learned to type, it's IRC that did that
23:24:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: cheaper typewriters in Hungary traditionally omitted three letters: íúű. you can find older manuscripts written without those letters.
23:25:23 <b_jonas> and of course those typewriters also don't have the digits 0 and 1, so o and l were used instead
23:26:18 <b_jonas> and even the better typewriters don't have all the symbols that mathematicians use for formulas, so mathematical manuscripts use handwritten greek letters, and you use underlining and double underlining to mark bold and italic variables when you want to be clear
23:26:52 <arseniiv> 1 often looked as I already, and for V one used У (and Х for X, and what for L, I don’t remember at all, but surely that should have occurred sufficiently rarer), but that’s not all: for economy or what, I’ve usually seen II typed as П and III as Ш. Now that’s really eclectic: 1, П, Ш, 1У, У, У1, УП, УШ, 1Х…
23:28:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that used in legal texts, which often number sections or lists in roman numerals, sometimes in lowercase?
23:28:17 <kingoffrance> chess was also occasionally played with real people as the pieces: https://archive.org/details/TheSeventhSealAFilm/
23:28:25 <arseniiv> this looks more in context printed in the a typewritery font, though. In a sans serif it doesn’t invoke too many associations for me here in my IRC client
23:28:29 <kingoffrance> this seems lost to history too
23:28:45 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: yes, there were performances of live chess
23:29:52 <b_jonas> kingoffrance: also chess sets that are more decorated than the ordinary carved ones, ranging in price from the ordinary tourist souvenier ones up to ones you find in museums that inherited royal collections
23:30:25 <kingoffrance> that makes total sense; billiards was supposedly for royalty at first, now in bars
23:30:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well sure, we're programmers, we use fonts where 1 and l look different
23:30:38 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: is that used in legal texts, which often number sections or lists in roman numerals, sometimes in lowercase? => this is an interesting question. I haven’t been in time to see many such typed documents, but I think here lower-case romans should have been a rare occasion. Hopefully someone wrote about that, but it wasn’t occurred to me to find out until now
23:31:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I haven't seen typewritten legal texts either, admittedly, only printed and online ones
23:31:17 <b_jonas> but they do sometimes have lowercase roman sequences
23:32:02 <b_jonas> plus the weird § sign that's used only in legal texts
23:32:22 <b_jonas> admittedly mathematical texts have much more unique weird signs
23:32:44 <kingoffrance> oh im almost certain my mother's electronic typewriter had that :/ not on my computer keyboard
23:32:48 <kingoffrance> and some fractions IIRC
23:32:50 <zzo38> A section sign is sometimes used in documents other than legal texts
23:32:57 <b_jonas>
23:33:40 <arseniiv> here we are also accustomed to that § sign, it’s often used in school textbooks and I think many non-school ones still
23:33:59 <b_jonas> dunno, I only see them in legal texts
23:34:56 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> admittedly mathematical texts have much more unique weird signs => I like there are plethora of signs for [beginning and] ending proofs
23:35:29 <zzo38> Section sign is included in the PC character set (for whatever reason they decided which characters to put, I don't know), so like everything else in the PC character set they are sometimes used in computer games for PC
23:39:17 <b_jonas> that sign has the shortcut \S in plain TeX, and a place in one of the base fonts of plain TeX, so it can't be too rare
23:39:48 <zzo38> Yes, it is also included in Plain TeX
23:40:22 <b_jonas> yes, it's also included in iso-8859-1 and CP437, but that makes more sense if it's used in legal texts, because they wanted to sell those PCs and printers to people who work with legal texts
23:41:38 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that is something they may wish to do
23:45:33 <b_jonas> about today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/love-5 , I think that the solution in https://pbfcomics.com/comics/nice-shirt/ may work better
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