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< 1579913413 13373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have tried a variant of the "Average" filter used in PNG. In my variant, the average is rounded toward 128 rather than toward 0, and the difference from the predicted value is stored differently. For predicted values less than 128 (p is the prediction and x is the actual value), use 2(p-x)-1 for x<p, use 2(x-p) for p<x<2p, use x otherwise.
< 1579913486 401893 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My tests so far seem to be that this improves compression by 1% for huffed data compared with the more common way.
< 1579913504 609660 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a comment of this please?
< 1579915319 154726 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.36.135.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1579916719 952310 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno there is a "pngcrush" program i used to use, that tries various things (all "lossless" I believe);   might be interesting to see what it does
< 1579916749 444747 :Frater_EST!adrianbibl@172.242.0.73 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579917124 308695 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mentioned is not compatible with PNG, though.
< 1579917179 187458 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, thats the closest i have got to such things :/
< 1579917197 827718 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than reading
< 1579918106 421825 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
> 1579931079 870009 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Scope14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69297 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+2670) 10Created page, with a bit of explanatory text
< 1579933296 335482 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that a better web browser program can include multiple views of the document: normal view, presentation view, print view, ARIA view, source view.
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< 1579934097 734194 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
> 1579934541 244069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Call/cc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69298&oldid=59130 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+4287) 10Added some other ways to think that might help. If they don't, get your hands on practical examples.
> 1579934709 674052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Call/cc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69299&oldid=69298 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+100) 10Added a brief taster in the introduction
> 1579934820 6911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Call/cc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69300&oldid=69299 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (-15) 10Changed title to actually be lowercase, rather than {{wrongtitle}}
> 1579935138 923614 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dd14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69301&oldid=68731 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (-37) 10{{wrongtitle}} -> {{lowercase}} template
> 1579935371 427535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Stestoltz14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69302 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+216) 10Created page with "==Templates== You can use the lowercase template instead of wrongtitle, to get rid of any unsightly explanation messages. ~~~~"
> 1579935405 665653 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Stestoltz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69303&oldid=69302 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+28) 10
> 1579935905 111337 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07No-code esolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69304&oldid=66496 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+12) 10Categories and template
> 1579935921 695369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07No-code esolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69305&oldid=69304 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+0) 10Formatting mishap corrected
> 1579935991 461734 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category:Language constructs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69306&oldid=45247 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+22) 10Added concepts category
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> 1579937700 822893 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Recursion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69307&oldid=67428 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+1765) 10Added more info, removed stub template
> 1579937857 741134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unrandom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69308&oldid=69234 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+30) 10
> 1579937887 509445 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unpseudorandom14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69309&oldid=68973 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+30) 10Added 0-d category
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< 1579939855 620277 :x_!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579941432 972475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the pictures I have tried, the following command seems to compress better than bzip2 (although losing the alpha channel and reducing to 8 bits per channel):  ff-paeth e | ff-bitmask FFFFFFFFFFFF0000 8080808080800000 | ff-ycocg 8 | ffavs | tail -c+8 | xz -F raw --delta=dist=4 --lzma2=preset=9,lc=2,lp=2,pb=2   Although depending on the picture, ff-bitmask and/or delta coding may be omitted for better compression.
< 1579943594 309841 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579945629 432151 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579946225 417267 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit
< 1579947142 563092 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0110141
> 1579947176 110095 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HaPyLi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69310&oldid=46874 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+100) 10Categories and formatting
> 1579947457 652153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69311&oldid=68893 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+24) 10Some links
< 1579947536 352382 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margolus%E2%80%93Levitin_theorem
> 1579947626 263008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Multiprogramming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69312&oldid=14189 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+9) 10{{stub}} template added
> 1579947770 587416 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ROT8fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69313&oldid=69295 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+35) 10Added bf derivatives category
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< 1579951177 938969 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net NICK :Guest90457
< 1579952564 166854 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1579956451 876922 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net NICK :Guest7188
< 1579957146 465423 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1579957191 856106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5*  10moved [[02ROT8fuck10]] to [[ROTfuck]]
< 1579957223 229548 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1579957304 609339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69316&oldid=69050 5* 03Lebster 5* (-473) 10
> 1579957397 415645 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category:Joke Languages14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69317 5* 03Lebster 5* (+37) 10Redirected page to [[Category:Joke languages]]
> 1579957438 740745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07!!Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69318&oldid=69316 5* 03Lebster 5* (+0) 10
> 1579957451 211668 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DetailedFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69319&oldid=69292 5* 03Lebster 5* (+0) 10
> 1579957600 662598 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69320&oldid=69296 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10
> 1579957645 982479 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69321&oldid=69249 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+14) 10/* R */
> 1579957725 818890 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69322&oldid=69321 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10/* L */
< 1579957745 353551 :Guest7188!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :christ detailedfuck is appalling
< 1579957764 556244 :Guest7188!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host
< 1579957764 556295 :Guest7188!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579957805 798738 :Guest7188!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover NICK :Phantom_Hoover
> 1579957882 299477 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Phantom Hoover 5*  10moved [[02TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution10]] to [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]: why is this even capitalised like it's on tvtropes
> 1579957882 390270 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Phantom Hoover 5*  10moved [[02Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution10]] to [[Talk:Trivial brainfuck substitution]]: why is this even capitalised like it's on tvtropes
< 1579958281 187292 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any thoughts about black hole entropy and quantum computation
< 1579958331 426335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.36.135.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1579958725 265246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DetailedFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69327&oldid=69319 5* 03Lebster 5* (+36) 10
> 1579959282 921791 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DetailedFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69328&oldid=69327 5* 03Lebster 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1579959757 246382 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69329&oldid=68284 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10/* Wumpus */
< 1579959846 64695 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i think the universe is mostly inside a black hole and its pretty much all quantum at this point
< 1579959865 744566 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with another black hole you might be able to escape
< 1579959886 544507 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :series of tubes, series of black holes, that sort of thing
> 1579959968 550821 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69330&oldid=69193 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+33) 10/* Examples */
< 1579959974 638894 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you need a blacker hole to escape other black holes
> 1579959993 853302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69331&oldid=69329 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* XENBLN */
< 1579960060 200671 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its kind of "choose your adventure" but black holes
< 1579960064 379483 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :choose your black hole
< 1579960126 790508 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick a black hole, any black hole
> 1579961514 946873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ROTfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69332&oldid=69314 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10
< 1579961752 700642 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
> 1579961770 184839 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ROTfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69333&oldid=69332 5* 03Lebster 5* (+854) 10/* Commands */
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< 1579963344 624033 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net NICK :Guest15465
< 1579963646 827581 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1579963660 997412 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah im starting to come aroudn to holographic universe theory
< 1579963687 661162 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes more sense after reading about the entropy on the surface of a black hole
< 1579963867 827677 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno science or religion per se, i just think sufficient people are so easily confused/mislead :/    in a sense they might create a holographic universe on accident;   so forgive me if i misused the word "black hole" and meant it metaphorically
< 1579963895 175117 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, those are my thoughts when you say "black hole" :/
< 1579963935 220115 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mental black hole is my interpretation
< 1579963995 740259 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not one of those "whatever people think becomes true/physical/manifests"  but there is certainly two-way interchange IMO
< 1579964013 814103 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :different people have different mindsets and  design different systems based on thus
< 1579964032 493686 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean?
< 1579964121 343955 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programmers build cathedrals others want bazaars :)
< 1579964158 42260 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the non-technical stuff seems to always bleed into programming, for better or worse
< 1579964200 303123 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people always bring baggage with them, which is not all bad, but i always try to see "what was designer's mindset/philosophy" of any program/os/whatever
< 1579964221 781361 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never take any program/os at face value :/   50/50 maybe, 50% technical 50% philosophy
< 1579964292 968463 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1579964311 447364 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, languages too, but sometimes language == os == program :/  depends
< 1579964543 135852 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always thought programming as writing/art, so i always try to track down outside influences author(s) brought to technical table
< 1579964550 456181 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"form of writing"
< 1579964692 75245 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere i read art == technique IIRC, but some people argue against that too, i.e. pure technique is purely technical i.e. is no "art"
< 1579964793 915702 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a philosophical thing: whether a particular technique/style encompasses or is derived from a philosophy/ies or can stand alone on its own
< 1579964822 755638 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats like movie "genres" i suppose
< 1579965436 369590 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do notice e.g. in #proglangdesign some people seem obsessed with concise syntax, which seems backwards to me
< 1579965468 701547 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would design solid innards/non-visible components first, THEN try to put a layer of friendliness on top
< 1579965478 929584 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people might argue that doesn't work, they have to be designed concurrently somewhat
< 1579965505 41550 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, the "friendly" syntax to me depends on what the lower layers/levels are doing/how they are constructed
< 1579965535 897309 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are "optimizing for human reader/writer perhaps" and would accuse me of "optimizing for machine (or implementation of language)" maybe
> 1579965578 516758 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69334&oldid=68609 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+2061) 10/* Tried better implementation in C99 */ new section
< 1579965636 200356 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in that sense i am more "power" "technical" orientated as opposed to "visuals"
> 1579965654 695582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WII2D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69335&oldid=59857 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
< 1579965658 13802 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i consider the visuals all 'fiction' anyways, so they don't interest me as much
< 1579965760 98655 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in that sense, i am very much "philosophy first" even if "philosophy" is purely defined as "technical basis the other tech. sits on top of"
< 1579965890 604326 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would also probably make me "people choose tech for non-tech reasons, so debating whether tech is inherently philosophical is meaningless; people make it such"
< 1579965901 458037 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, people infuse it with such
< 1579966038 399484 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for me, as long as there is more than one technique/style, there MUST be multiple competing philosophies that inspired them somehow
< 1579966103 82377 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to separate into multiple components rather than one giant monolithic thing is inherently "philosophical decision" IMO and not purely technical decision
< 1579966123 662129 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they might do one way or other for "technical reasons" of course
> 1579966344 406792 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Zzo3814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69336&oldid=67932 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+316) 10/* I'd like to learn about AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! more. */
> 1579966411 736809 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Zzo3814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69337&oldid=69336 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+19) 10/* Another question about index shifter */
< 1579966510 623957 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. to me "microkernel" to me is a philosophy/idea first, that has technical implications, i dont consider such a technical decision, but preceding the tech/implementation that grows up around it/is supposed to morph to match that decision
< 1579966556 955287 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing: people might choose such for technical reasons, but it is an idea foremost IMO before the "technique" becomes "visible"
> 1579966571 404795 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:The Abstract Computer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69338 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+154) 10Created page with "== Do you really nead the word the for article's name? == --~~~~"
< 1579966633 230581 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tech/technique to me is purely "manifested ideas" and cannot stand alone/there is no neutral
> 1579966690 711817 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template talk:Reflist14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69339 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+145) 10Created page with "== How was this template supposed to be used? == --~~~~"
< 1579966721 736355 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people who ignore all the non-tech influences IMO leads to collosal mess of conflicting philosophies; ensures there implementation ends up scatterbrained
< 1579966729 271653 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/there/their/
< 1579967118 431256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kingoffrance: The Mach "micro"kernel may be a good example.
< 1579967285 519412 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :most that stuff should be obvious/cliche, but some people you say "philosophical decision" they consider all such make-believe
< 1579967301 112626 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "business/marketing" and doesn't influence tech/implemntation at all :/
< 1579967319 223225 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do explain int-e :)
< 1579967532 713466 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive heard people say it was slow, and gnu hurd i used to read a bit about, i dont recall some past hurd incarnations were sort of mach-based IIRC
< 1579967536 302488 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579967542 438659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As I was taught it, the main purpose of a microkernel based OS is fault isolation; a driver messing up should not affect the rest of the system as long as it doesn't need that particular driver. In order to do this without being ridiculously slow, you need cheap context switches, since many operations take 4 context switches (program -> kernel -> driver -> kernel -> program), possibly more,...
< 1579967548 447069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...rather than 2 (program -> kernel -> program) now. Mach tracked too much information about processes and threads in the kernel (I forgot most of the details; one was that they actually had message queues, which at the time was a bad trade-off... things may have changed), so context switches were basically as expensive as on a macrokernel, but you had more of them. So in order to be...
< 1579967554 462156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...competetive, they started putting drivers into kernel mode, and that defeats the purpose.)
< 1579967606 818514 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like they had a grand idea, were forced to compromise, and dissolved into reality :)
< 1579967625 503430 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which didnt live up to the idea :/
< 1579967652 524510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mach microkernel also isn't actually small. (Though I guess the really small microkernels of perhaps 16kb size only exist on embedded systems these days.)
< 1579967711 222188 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i used to read about hurd, part of reason it was slow moving seemed to be "upstream" kept dying :/
< 1579967724 99287 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then they'd have to scramble "do we keep our own fork going?" or try to "rebase" everything
< 1579967736 955551 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that explains why mach stuff died i suppose
< 1579967740 113848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I recall it, the original L4 microkernel for x86 was 8kb in size and made a point of having all common code paths fit into a single 4kb page, and the thread information in one or two cache lines.
< 1579967741 299242 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :work on it i mean
< 1579967818 133870 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes total sense
< 1579967830 359406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was written in assembly language, and the author died fairly young; all the L4 clones I know of are written mostly in C and C++.
< 1579967862 635585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, 48 actually. I though he was younger.
< 1579967879 911664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochen_Liedtke <-- seems he's relevant enough for Wikipedia
< 1579967921 888292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I find entirely reasonable. But Wikipedia isn't excactly known for being reasonable. :)
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< 1579968024 810690 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :last i read IIRC some hurd movement was hoping to phase out any mach remnants
< 1579968062 597905 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps hard to tell "one guy working alone sporadically thought he'd try that" versus "project is moving in that direction"
< 1579968064 567101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lost interest in Hurd before they ever made a release.
< 1579968073 178800 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are arguably sometimes indistinguishable
< 1579968104 733245 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579968143 494431 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the release (debian i think) the installer borked on me, fs-related i think, so i lost interest at that point;  or i didnt find sufficient instructions to do it properly
< 1579968151 203557 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/debian/debian-based/
< 1579968180 640558 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when they get another release/installer i may browse again in a vm
< 1579968242 536078 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they had some security issues, with a plan of ways to avoid, but hadnt been implemented yet IIRC
< 1579968261 732516 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there was a "plan" (maybe just one guy) hoping to correct some design flaws
< 1579968288 706771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the deterrents is that the Linux kernel is amazingly reliable. I don't know what problem Hurd is solving (other than having a "true" GNU operating system, which I don't care about all that much.)
< 1579968373 138799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do see the irony in putting that statement on #esoteric.
< 1579968463 802213 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one can argue they tried to graft userland onto various kernels, and might have been better off starting from scratch than trying "shortcuts" :/  i dunno
< 1579968485 644760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The difference between Hurd and most #esoteric stuff is that the latter can usually be understood in a few minutes to hours, and often brings with it an intellectual challenge, which does alleviate an eternal problem... boredom.)
< 1579968489 48882 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that they werent "pure" enough, but gave in to temptation of quicker bootstrap
< 1579968528 348703 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now that upstream dies, they have to try to "ungraft" from upstream and pick a new kernel to foist onto
< 1579968568 591492 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with manpower they might argue that was/is the only sensical choice
< 1579968578 343512 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite having to "backtrack" now perhaps
< 1579968706 280556 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like to build cross-compilers; i will revisit them someday i guess
< 1579968837 601191 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :last i checked, i dont recall they had a 64-bit thing yet either; which doesnt phase me, but for attracting new users/devs probably discourages things
< 1579968853 602333 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the rust/etc. cant be helpful for existing code base either i imagine
< 1579968869 684704 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no pun intended, meant the "new" languages)
< 1579968908 575479 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of the 'interest' of potential devs seems to be elsewhere
< 1579969186 211461 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579969508 960563 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i see what you mean now re: mach int-e    and my comment on "innards"   and "even if philosophy is defined as tech the other tech sits on top of" :/
< 1579969527 60510 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :without those "innards" the rest of "microkernel" idea falls apart
< 1579970532 131569 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the last i heard of hurd:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcRlhsEezGY   trying to find a new kernel statue to graft userland onto so that they might crash through the wall of death
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< 1579975562 403867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a book about holographic universe that I received recently. There is no mention of black holes, but it does mention quantum entanglement, wave/particle duality, David Bohm, placebo effects, near death experience, psychic powers, retropsychokinesis, time travel, holophonic sound, miracles, and some other stuff.
< 1579975616 994187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, they don't include any mathematics, and don't have many scientific terms, so that makes some of these thing difficult to know what it is or what exactly is being proposed here. They do have some medical terms I had to look up in the dictionary, though.
< 1579976143 835466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is unclear what these things are, since some studies (including those mentioned in the book) have different and inconclusive results, and some have never been scientifically tested, although some of them have been tested, with varying results.
< 1579976402 29924 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also do not mention quantum gravity. It seem to me that gravity is different from other forces and you should need to figure out how to make the theories to work together, whether involving holograms or involving something else.
< 1579976417 962827 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have my own ideas about quantum entanglement too, but which do not involve holograms.)
< 1579976709 558187 :Rerednaw!5243b74f@nsg93-1-82-67-183-79.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579977854 39769 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also read elsewhere that someone said that nobody really understands quantum physics. Having so many of these different ideas, many of which do not match, I suppose it may be true.
< 1579977900 215274 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Richard Feynman said that anyone who claims to understand it obviously doesn't
< 1579977909 28852 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps some people who don't think they understand it actually do??
< 1579977941 376803 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's possible to understand "quantum mechanics" as in the basic postulates regarding time evolution of systems described by wave functions and so forth
< 1579977953 252053 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then when you start adding all this weird shit to actually describe our physical world in that mathematical framework
< 1579977956 952208 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it gets really tricky
< 1579977971 383174 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what's retropsychokinesis? sounds pretty esoteric
< 1579978152 675486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum physics is the closest I've seen to there being a god, with a great sense of humor. ;-) (The idea being that humans come up with some wacky formulas, and then the universe is adapted to behave according to those formulas, just because it's funny.)
< 1579978179 637639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think Douglas Adams had similar ideas.)
< 1579978209 112623 :Rerednaw!5243b74f@nsg93-1-82-67-183-79.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1579978331 636390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retropsychokinesis is when something is affected in the past, such as if you make a recording of quantum random number generation and then play back later to someone to tries to use psychic powers to make one number appear more often than the others. (Although another article I read says that this does not actually affect the probabilities of the numbers at all, but nevertheless does have an effect on the data.)
< 1579978331 803322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a speech in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" where somebody explains that if the universe is known (both the ultimate question and the ultimate answer), then it's instantly replaced by something even more bizarre.)
< 1579978420 175510 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But probably you are correct that the basic postulates regarding time evolution of systems described by wave functions and so forth can be understandable but the other stuff is more difficult to understand.
< 1579978607 4420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do feel sometimes like physics just gets more complicated the closer we look
< 1579978610 420281 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like god is fucking with us
< 1579978680 439107 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason i'm reminded obliquely of https://qualiacomputing.com/2018/10/15/estimated-cost-of-the-dmt-machine-elves-prime-factorization-experiment/
< 1579979129 74305 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@172.242.0.73 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579979250 847479 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that actually makes a lot of sense int-e, certain beliefs are there are certain people always "one step ahead" everything is seasonal, etc. :)
< 1579979286 84869 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :once everyone reaches one "level" then they move on, theoretically trying to entice/program/manipulate/enlighten/elevate people to the next
< 1579979298 150081 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is kind of a "people are always trapped in some era of evolution" thing
< 1579979306 985598 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except for them, always one step ahead)
< 1579979320 651086 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and they are needed to "bridge" the worlds and translate things to our "understanding")
< 1579979329 717996 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and totally not trying to manipulate everyone)
< 1579979334 416743 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that might be sarcasm)
< 1579979432 851540 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so once "everyone" understand whatever they were supposed to learn in one "era" then they move onto the next round of programming people
< 1579979497 398418 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats very similar, just they dont consider themselves part of the "everyone" group
< 1579979583 899785 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "understand the universe" is a "humanity collectively" thing
< 1579979731 618907 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is driven to understand itself
< 1579979738 961606 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans are just one manifestation of this desire
< 1579979756 523942 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we spontaneously generated out of hydrogen gas
< 1579980057 403341 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579980086 564019 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never met any of these salvia or DMT "entities"
< 1579980086 813601 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1579980095 428725 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to go looking for them
< 1579980308 616717 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1579980562 260589 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think they just write books/etc. and strategically place them for people to find and if you read books from the wrong era, they probably dont like that, i.e. they would presumably want to destroy programming of prior "eras"
< 1579980597 521408 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka and/or you have to be programmed to see the "entities"
< 1579980605 97520 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or program yourself)
< 1579980633 44321 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, it seems a "real to them" IMO
< 1579980652 333035 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and they say other things dont apply to them, because they are not part of the mass of whatever era)
< 1579980706 413168 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka i think it is not uncommon they claim only similar and/or competing entities can see the other entities
< 1579980764 106149 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i only interpret such thing 100% symbolically
< 1579980784 716849 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people familiar with symbolism might "make them come true/real"
< 1579980892 942236 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1579980970 579157 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im interested in character sets for programming, so symbols i always try to find "meanings" of
< 1579980976 844570 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is why i read such things
< 1579981063 122230 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things i think are the "27 conspiracy" which IIRC was "people thought 27 meant something, so then they started seeing it everywhere"
< 1579981104 480569 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know a "cure" for that except "familiarize yourself with more conspiracies" and process of elimination
< 1579981205 147373 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might be too negative IMO "why do people start clubs/religions/cults/whatever?"  because they want to take out/replace other ones
< 1579981266 639304 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1579981351 90713 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that does not seem to be the only reason to start clubs/religions/cults/whatever, although sometimes it is.
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< 1579984868 605546 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird al puts 27 in a lot of his songs
< 1579984873 867111 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually think of 23 as a more significant number
< 1579984876 319230 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of discordianism
< 1579984893 858274 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a book about how the world will end in 2012
< 1579984897 294062 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bought it for a laugh
< 1579984899 846440 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :several years after 2012
< 1579985202 226607 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( 2nd edition, including a new chapter on why the world is ending so slowly )
< 1579985282 279599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading a random scifi thing where the world does end in 2012, published in 2012. Everybody is dead. Well, almost everybody, because otherwise there wouldn't be a story. I'll probably regret reading it the moment I finish. :)
< 1579985439 410828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway it did mention the Mayan calendar. Is there any other reason why the world ended in 2012?
< 1579985499 320889 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure
< 1579985506 544864 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think people came up with all kinds of questionable reasons
< 1579985559 650755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad they were wrong
< 1579985600 58393 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world did end, the rest of us didn't get the memo though.
< 1579985653 775284 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world only just started last Tuesday
< 1579985665 765233 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything you remember before that is a false memory implanted in you at creation
< 1579985720 924400 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, it should've been Thursday.
< 1579985724 883179 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :they did a shit job at making it believable then.
< 1579985784 88415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Time (and its progression) is one of the more mind-boggling conspiracies around.
< 1579985877 257892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? time
< 1579985879 601431 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :time? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1579985938 941385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
< 1579985941 544410 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'time': Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
< 1579986043 97620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Can't have enough Douglas Adams quotes. )
< 1579987841 534586 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots symbolic reasons for ~2000 (perhaps based on mayan too, however indirectly/imprecisely or even "unintentionally") but yeah "the world" of such things i only interpret as symbolic "end of an era"
< 1579987856 801806 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :didnt stop my nick from going back to a previous era :)
< 1579987891 750921 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at best IMO "when the symbology changes, then there are literal effects"
< 1579987902 481365 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any "the literal world is ending" doesnt make any sense to me
< 1579987941 921233 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if any of that is true, then it would be "transformed for a new era" IMO
< 1579987989 24967 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would only "end" for people who want to stay in the prior era
< 1579988003 243761 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since it was all based on "symbiology" they can just cling to their symbols IMO
< 1579988027 212102 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. they dont have to go along with the "new definitions"
< 1579988104 109942 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my nick hasnt been struck by lightning :/   just crash through the "death wall" like indiana jones   (ropes/knots == trinity i believe, symbology all over that clip i linked)
< 1579988121 19589 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if indiana jones can escape the millenial pyramid, clearly there are ways out
< 1579988132 600413 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone made that movie :)
< 1579988204 952350 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :indiana jones escaped "1000 years" of the millenium, thats good enough for me :)
< 1579988214 326948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I follow. I'm sure I don't want to follow either.
< 1579988737 27991 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a PostScript program which makes a second version of a Discordian deck, and it includes a subroutine for writing Mayan numbers.
< 1579989144 850553 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy is in full force, i see.
< 1579989183 567463 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1579989275 390685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot should chime in
< 1579989275 810583 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: which was very annoying problem which causes inability to access ash without a crash ( and thus often spelled) " chitlins".
< 1579989413 325168 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why i stay away from "advent of code" :/ too millenial for me :/
< 1579989804 952698 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same reason i dont trust unicode; i dont trust anyone trying to "merge" everything
< 1579989877 88841 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell us how you really feel.
< 1579990173 499195 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like Unicode either; I think it is a mess. One character set isn't going to be good for all purposes.
< 1579990493 951669 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1579990982 467486 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@196.64.37.160 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579991105 248919 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakes == forked tongue, alchemical merging, hermes/prometheus/etc.   :/   thus is unicode to me :/
< 1579991386 784576 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not quite understand your point
> 1579992301 316369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StupidStackLanguage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69340&oldid=69098 5* 03Lebster 5* (+204) 10/* Examples */
< 1579992424 804943 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont accept their new definitions of "charset" i stick with the prior one :)
< 1579992437 738705 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO they had to redefine things to match the new system
< 1579992452 768100 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "speaking out of both sides of their mouth" IMO
< 1579992626 925243 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive had to many debates with ppl, i will spare you the details, but left me unconvinced they are doing anything but playing word games
< 1579992838 467807 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@196.64.37.160 QUIT :Quit: *smoke bomb*
< 1579993066 113758 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1579993122 376934 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a competing standard, and you think it's objectively better, then post it and advocate for its adoption.
< 1579993221 317199 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont, i just am experimenting; that is the whole problem: i have different goals
< 1579993237 701996 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :theirs seems to be "there is no plaintext, only encodings"
< 1579993254 844054 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, that is up to each os/cpu/whatever to decide what is the "native encoding" == plaintext (in that realm)
< 1579993282 952710 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my "plaintext" == native tongue of whatever speaker/reader/listener
< 1579993323 583012 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we are oppositely focussed, coming from different directions
< 1579993325 427067 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nice. the rest of us have to share information.
< 1579993338 865599 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :between systems.
< 1579993360 868872 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, there is no "plaintext": you're still interpreting numbers as glyphs or partial glyphs.
< 1579993386 731356 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and no;   charsets dont necessarily mean "glyphs" IMO;  headless servers exist, for example
< 1579993397 207570 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can still process such data without displaying anywhere
< 1579993421 762021 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a glyph does not have to be displayed to mean something in an encoding.
< 1579993520 96434 :zzo38!~zzo38@24.207.50.7 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that one character set isn't going to be good for all purposes, so I do not have a competing standard, although I do have some which are specific to some purposes, and are not meant for all purposes.
< 1579993528 805136 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly ^^^^^
< 1579993564 176201 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its no different IMO than countries have some "native" language or not, or a set of languages they e.g. print laws in
< 1579993569 197915 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode isn't the best. better than what we have.
< 1579993577 506003 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/have/have had
< 1579993585 856060 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if in "real world' i ever had to do i18n stuff, i may feel different :)
< 1579993585 922144 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a set of mutually incompatible encodings.
< 1579993603 5272 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for "hobby" stuff, it makes little sense to me
< 1579993618 545400 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you're not doing anything serious, why bother trying.
< 1579993642 231892 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just want my metaphorical france, not the metaphorical world :)
< 1579993660 826574 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it profit a character set to gain the world and lose themself?
< 1579993716 878747 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone someday wants to "translate" my stuff, they will have ample means, i am not locking such out
< 1579993737 780885 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy is in full force.
< 1579993752 145360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? esoteric
< 1579993753 306592 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
< 1579993983 428277 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.36.135.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1579994688 773274 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would Thue's usability change if you added "nonlocal" matches? i.e for each rule, you have multiple substrings on the left and right, and only when all substrings on the left are present, they're replaced with the corresponding substrings on the right.
< 1579994737 136245 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"foo:bar, baz:quux;" for example. the replacements only happen when both `foo` and `baz` are present in the input string.
< 1579994831 730561 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they are, then `foo` gets replaced with `bar`, and `baz` gets replaced with `quux`.
< 1579996722 932602 :kingoffrance!~x__@c-67-161-241-22.hsd1.ut.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure unicode is great for multinational enterprises, i dont think it scales to individuals