←2020-01-24 2020-01-25 2020-01-26→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:50:13 <zzo38> I have tried a variant of the "Average" filter used in PNG. In my variant, the average is rounded toward 128 rather than toward 0, and the difference from the predicted value is stored differently. For predicted values less than 128 (p is the prediction and x is the actual value), use 2(p-x)-1 for x<p, use 2(x-p) for p<x<2p, use x otherwise.
00:51:26 <zzo38> My tests so far seem to be that this improves compression by 1% for huffed data compared with the more common way.
00:51:44 <zzo38> Do you have a comment of this please?
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01:45:19 <kingoffrance> i dunno there is a "pngcrush" program i used to use, that tries various things (all "lossless" I believe); might be interesting to see what it does
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01:52:04 <zzo38> What I mentioned is not compatible with PNG, though.
01:52:59 <kingoffrance> sorry, thats the closest i have got to such things :/
01:53:17 <kingoffrance> other than reading
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05:44:39 <esowiki> [[Scope]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69297 * IFcoltransG * (+2670) Created page, with a bit of explanatory text
06:21:36 <zzo38> I think that a better web browser program can include multiple views of the document: normal view, presentation view, print view, ARIA view, source view.
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06:42:21 <esowiki> [[Call/cc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69298&oldid=59130 * IFcoltransG * (+4287) Added some other ways to think that might help. If they don't, get your hands on practical examples.
06:45:09 <esowiki> [[Call/cc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69299&oldid=69298 * IFcoltransG * (+100) Added a brief taster in the introduction
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07:05:21 <esowiki> [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69305&oldid=69304 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Formatting mishap corrected
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08:37:12 <zzo38> For the pictures I have tried, the following command seems to compress better than bzip2 (although losing the alpha channel and reducing to 8 bits per channel): ff-paeth e | ff-bitmask FFFFFFFFFFFF0000 8080808080800000 | ff-ycocg 8 | ffavs | tail -c+8 | xz -F raw --delta=dist=4 --lzma2=preset=9,lc=2,lp=2,pb=2 Although depending on the picture, ff-bitmask and/or delta coding may be omitted for better compression.
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09:57:05 <rain1> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit
10:12:22 <rain1> https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0110141
10:12:56 <esowiki> [[HaPyLi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69310&oldid=46874 * IFcoltransG * (+100) Categories and formatting
10:17:37 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69311&oldid=68893 * IFcoltransG * (+24) Some links
10:18:56 <rain1> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margolus%E2%80%93Levitin_theorem
10:20:26 <esowiki> [[Multiprogramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69312&oldid=14189 * IFcoltransG * (+9) {{stub}} template added
10:22:50 <esowiki> [[ROT8fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69313&oldid=69295 * IFcoltransG * (+35) Added bf derivatives category
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12:59:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[ROT8fuck]] to [[ROTfuck]]
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13:09:05 <Guest7188> christ detailedfuck is appalling
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13:11:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Phantom Hoover * moved [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] to [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]: why is this even capitalised like it's on tvtropes
13:11:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Phantom Hoover * moved [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] to [[Talk:Trivial brainfuck substitution]]: why is this even capitalised like it's on tvtropes
13:18:01 <rain1> any thoughts about black hole entropy and quantum computation
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13:44:06 <kingoffrance> i dunno, i think the universe is mostly inside a black hole and its pretty much all quantum at this point
13:44:25 <kingoffrance> so with another black hole you might be able to escape
13:44:46 <kingoffrance> series of tubes, series of black holes, that sort of thing
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13:46:14 <kingoffrance> presumably you need a blacker hole to escape other black holes
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13:47:40 <kingoffrance> so its kind of "choose your adventure" but black holes
13:47:44 <kingoffrance> choose your black hole
13:48:46 <kingoffrance> pick a black hole, any black hole
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14:47:26 <rain1> hello
14:47:40 <rain1> yeah im starting to come aroudn to holographic universe theory
14:48:07 <rain1> it makes more sense after reading about the entropy on the surface of a black hole
14:51:07 <kingoffrance> i dunno science or religion per se, i just think sufficient people are so easily confused/mislead :/ in a sense they might create a holographic universe on accident; so forgive me if i misused the word "black hole" and meant it metaphorically
14:51:35 <kingoffrance> but, those are my thoughts when you say "black hole" :/
14:52:15 <kingoffrance> mental black hole is my interpretation
14:53:15 <kingoffrance> im not one of those "whatever people think becomes true/physical/manifests" but there is certainly two-way interchange IMO
14:53:33 <kingoffrance> different people have different mindsets and design different systems based on thus
14:53:52 <rain1> what do you mean?
14:55:21 <kingoffrance> some programmers build cathedrals others want bazaars :)
14:55:58 <kingoffrance> all the non-technical stuff seems to always bleed into programming, for better or worse
14:56:40 <kingoffrance> people always bring baggage with them, which is not all bad, but i always try to see "what was designer's mindset/philosophy" of any program/os/whatever
14:57:01 <kingoffrance> i never take any program/os at face value :/ 50/50 maybe, 50% technical 50% philosophy
14:58:12 <rain1> yeah
14:58:31 <kingoffrance> well, languages too, but sometimes language == os == program :/ depends
15:02:23 <kingoffrance> i always thought programming as writing/art, so i always try to track down outside influences author(s) brought to technical table
15:02:30 <kingoffrance> "form of writing"
15:04:52 <kingoffrance> somewhere i read art == technique IIRC, but some people argue against that too, i.e. pure technique is purely technical i.e. is no "art"
15:06:33 <kingoffrance> thats a philosophical thing: whether a particular technique/style encompasses or is derived from a philosophy/ies or can stand alone on its own
15:07:02 <kingoffrance> thats like movie "genres" i suppose
15:17:16 <kingoffrance> i do notice e.g. in #proglangdesign some people seem obsessed with concise syntax, which seems backwards to me
15:17:48 <kingoffrance> i would design solid innards/non-visible components first, THEN try to put a layer of friendliness on top
15:17:58 <kingoffrance> but people might argue that doesn't work, they have to be designed concurrently somewhat
15:18:25 <kingoffrance> or rather, the "friendly" syntax to me depends on what the lower layers/levels are doing/how they are constructed
15:18:55 <kingoffrance> but they are "optimizing for human reader/writer perhaps" and would accuse me of "optimizing for machine (or implementation of language)" maybe
15:19:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69334&oldid=68609 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2061) /* Tried better implementation in C99 */ new section
15:20:36 <kingoffrance> so in that sense i am more "power" "technical" orientated as opposed to "visuals"
15:20:54 <esowiki> [[WII2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69335&oldid=59857 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
15:20:58 <kingoffrance> i suppose i consider the visuals all 'fiction' anyways, so they don't interest me as much
15:22:40 <kingoffrance> so in that sense, i am very much "philosophy first" even if "philosophy" is purely defined as "technical basis the other tech. sits on top of"
15:24:50 <kingoffrance> and that would also probably make me "people choose tech for non-tech reasons, so debating whether tech is inherently philosophical is meaningless; people make it such"
15:25:01 <kingoffrance> or, people infuse it with such
15:27:18 <kingoffrance> so for me, as long as there is more than one technique/style, there MUST be multiple competing philosophies that inspired them somehow
15:28:23 <kingoffrance> to separate into multiple components rather than one giant monolithic thing is inherently "philosophical decision" IMO and not purely technical decision
15:28:43 <kingoffrance> although they might do one way or other for "technical reasons" of course
15:32:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69336&oldid=67932 * YamTokTpaFa * (+316) /* I'd like to learn about AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! more. */
15:33:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69337&oldid=69336 * YamTokTpaFa * (+19) /* Another question about index shifter */
15:35:10 <kingoffrance> so e.g. to me "microkernel" to me is a philosophy/idea first, that has technical implications, i dont consider such a technical decision, but preceding the tech/implementation that grows up around it/is supposed to morph to match that decision
15:35:56 <kingoffrance> same thing: people might choose such for technical reasons, but it is an idea foremost IMO before the "technique" becomes "visible"
15:36:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Abstract Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69338 * YamTokTpaFa * (+154) Created page with "== Do you really nead the word the for article's name? == --~~~~"
15:37:13 <kingoffrance> so tech/technique to me is purely "manifested ideas" and cannot stand alone/there is no neutral
15:38:10 <esowiki> [[Template talk:Reflist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69339 * YamTokTpaFa * (+145) Created page with "== How was this template supposed to be used? == --~~~~"
15:38:41 <kingoffrance> and people who ignore all the non-tech influences IMO leads to collosal mess of conflicting philosophies; ensures there implementation ends up scatterbrained
15:38:49 <kingoffrance> s/there/their/
15:45:18 <int-e> kingoffrance: The Mach "micro"kernel may be a good example.
15:48:05 <kingoffrance> most that stuff should be obvious/cliche, but some people you say "philosophical decision" they consider all such make-believe
15:48:21 <kingoffrance> or "business/marketing" and doesn't influence tech/implemntation at all :/
15:48:39 <kingoffrance> do explain int-e :)
15:52:12 <kingoffrance> ive heard people say it was slow, and gnu hurd i used to read a bit about, i dont recall some past hurd incarnations were sort of mach-based IIRC
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15:52:22 <int-e> (As I was taught it, the main purpose of a microkernel based OS is fault isolation; a driver messing up should not affect the rest of the system as long as it doesn't need that particular driver. In order to do this without being ridiculously slow, you need cheap context switches, since many operations take 4 context switches (program -> kernel -> driver -> kernel -> program), possibly more,...
15:52:28 <int-e> ...rather than 2 (program -> kernel -> program) now. Mach tracked too much information about processes and threads in the kernel (I forgot most of the details; one was that they actually had message queues, which at the time was a bad trade-off... things may have changed), so context switches were basically as expensive as on a macrokernel, but you had more of them. So in order to be...
15:52:34 <int-e> ...competetive, they started putting drivers into kernel mode, and that defeats the purpose.)
15:53:26 <kingoffrance> sounds like they had a grand idea, were forced to compromise, and dissolved into reality :)
15:53:45 <kingoffrance> which didnt live up to the idea :/
15:54:12 <int-e> The Mach microkernel also isn't actually small. (Though I guess the really small microkernels of perhaps 16kb size only exist on embedded systems these days.)
15:55:11 <kingoffrance> when i used to read about hurd, part of reason it was slow moving seemed to be "upstream" kept dying :/
15:55:24 <kingoffrance> so then they'd have to scramble "do we keep our own fork going?" or try to "rebase" everything
15:55:36 <kingoffrance> and that explains why mach stuff died i suppose
15:55:40 <int-e> As I recall it, the original L4 microkernel for x86 was 8kb in size and made a point of having all common code paths fit into a single 4kb page, and the thread information in one or two cache lines.
15:55:41 <kingoffrance> work on it i mean
15:56:58 <kingoffrance> that makes total sense
15:57:10 <int-e> But it was written in assembly language, and the author died fairly young; all the L4 clones I know of are written mostly in C and C++.
15:57:42 <int-e> Uh, 48 actually. I though he was younger.
15:57:59 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochen_Liedtke <-- seems he's relevant enough for Wikipedia
15:58:41 <int-e> Which I find entirely reasonable. But Wikipedia isn't excactly known for being reasonable. :)
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16:00:24 <kingoffrance> last i read IIRC some hurd movement was hoping to phase out any mach remnants
16:01:02 <kingoffrance> but perhaps hard to tell "one guy working alone sporadically thought he'd try that" versus "project is moving in that direction"
16:01:04 <int-e> I lost interest in Hurd before they ever made a release.
16:01:13 <kingoffrance> since they are arguably sometimes indistinguishable
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16:02:23 <kingoffrance> the release (debian i think) the installer borked on me, fs-related i think, so i lost interest at that point; or i didnt find sufficient instructions to do it properly
16:02:31 <kingoffrance> s/debian/debian-based/
16:03:00 <kingoffrance> so when they get another release/installer i may browse again in a vm
16:04:02 <kingoffrance> i think they had some security issues, with a plan of ways to avoid, but hadnt been implemented yet IIRC
16:04:21 <kingoffrance> so there was a "plan" (maybe just one guy) hoping to correct some design flaws
16:04:48 <int-e> One of the deterrents is that the Linux kernel is amazingly reliable. I don't know what problem Hurd is solving (other than having a "true" GNU operating system, which I don't care about all that much.)
16:06:13 <int-e> And I do see the irony in putting that statement on #esoteric.
16:07:43 <kingoffrance> well, one can argue they tried to graft userland onto various kernels, and might have been better off starting from scratch than trying "shortcuts" :/ i dunno
16:08:05 <int-e> (The difference between Hurd and most #esoteric stuff is that the latter can usually be understood in a few minutes to hours, and often brings with it an intellectual challenge, which does alleviate an eternal problem... boredom.)
16:08:09 <kingoffrance> and that they werent "pure" enough, but gave in to temptation of quicker bootstrap
16:08:48 <kingoffrance> and now that upstream dies, they have to try to "ungraft" from upstream and pick a new kernel to foist onto
16:09:28 <kingoffrance> but with manpower they might argue that was/is the only sensical choice
16:09:38 <kingoffrance> despite having to "backtrack" now perhaps
16:11:46 <kingoffrance> i just like to build cross-compilers; i will revisit them someday i guess
16:13:57 <kingoffrance> last i checked, i dont recall they had a 64-bit thing yet either; which doesnt phase me, but for attracting new users/devs probably discourages things
16:14:13 <kingoffrance> and all the rust/etc. cant be helpful for existing code base either i imagine
16:14:29 <kingoffrance> (no pun intended, meant the "new" languages)
16:15:08 <kingoffrance> lots of the 'interest' of potential devs seems to be elsewhere
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16:25:08 <kingoffrance> i think i see what you mean now re: mach int-e and my comment on "innards" and "even if philosophy is defined as tech the other tech sits on top of" :/
16:25:27 <kingoffrance> without those "innards" the rest of "microkernel" idea falls apart
16:42:12 <kingoffrance> that was the last i heard of hurd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcRlhsEezGY trying to find a new kernel statue to graft userland onto so that they might crash through the wall of death
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18:06:02 <zzo38> I have a book about holographic universe that I received recently. There is no mention of black holes, but it does mention quantum entanglement, wave/particle duality, David Bohm, placebo effects, near death experience, psychic powers, retropsychokinesis, time travel, holophonic sound, miracles, and some other stuff.
18:06:56 <zzo38> Unfortunately, they don't include any mathematics, and don't have many scientific terms, so that makes some of these thing difficult to know what it is or what exactly is being proposed here. They do have some medical terms I had to look up in the dictionary, though.
18:15:43 <zzo38> It is unclear what these things are, since some studies (including those mentioned in the book) have different and inconclusive results, and some have never been scientifically tested, although some of them have been tested, with varying results.
18:20:02 <zzo38> They also do not mention quantum gravity. It seem to me that gravity is different from other forces and you should need to figure out how to make the theories to work together, whether involving holograms or involving something else.
18:20:17 <zzo38> (I have my own ideas about quantum entanglement too, but which do not involve holograms.)
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18:44:14 <zzo38> I have also read elsewhere that someone said that nobody really understands quantum physics. Having so many of these different ideas, many of which do not match, I suppose it may be true.
18:45:00 <kmc> Richard Feynman said that anyone who claims to understand it obviously doesn't
18:45:09 <kmc> but perhaps some people who don't think they understand it actually do??
18:45:41 <kmc> I think it's possible to understand "quantum mechanics" as in the basic postulates regarding time evolution of systems described by wave functions and so forth
18:45:53 <kmc> but then when you start adding all this weird shit to actually describe our physical world in that mathematical framework
18:45:56 <kmc> then it gets really tricky
18:46:11 <kmc> zzo38: what's retropsychokinesis? sounds pretty esoteric
18:49:12 <int-e> Quantum physics is the closest I've seen to there being a god, with a great sense of humor. ;-) (The idea being that humans come up with some wacky formulas, and then the universe is adapted to behave according to those formulas, just because it's funny.)
18:49:39 <int-e> (I think Douglas Adams had similar ideas.)
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18:52:11 <zzo38> Retropsychokinesis is when something is affected in the past, such as if you make a recording of quantum random number generation and then play back later to someone to tries to use psychic powers to make one number appear more often than the others. (Although another article I read says that this does not actually affect the probabilities of the numbers at all, but nevertheless does have an effect on the data.)
18:52:11 <int-e> (There's a speech in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" where somebody explains that if the universe is known (both the ultimate question and the ultimate answer), then it's instantly replaced by something even more bizarre.)
18:53:40 <zzo38> But probably you are correct that the basic postulates regarding time evolution of systems described by wave functions and so forth can be understandable but the other stuff is more difficult to understand.
18:56:47 <kmc> I do feel sometimes like physics just gets more complicated the closer we look
18:56:50 <kmc> like god is fucking with us
18:58:00 <kmc> for some reason i'm reminded obliquely of https://qualiacomputing.com/2018/10/15/estimated-cost-of-the-dmt-machine-elves-prime-factorization-experiment/
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19:07:30 <kingoffrance> that actually makes a lot of sense int-e, certain beliefs are there are certain people always "one step ahead" everything is seasonal, etc. :)
19:08:06 <kingoffrance> once everyone reaches one "level" then they move on, theoretically trying to entice/program/manipulate/enlighten/elevate people to the next
19:08:18 <kingoffrance> so it is kind of a "people are always trapped in some era of evolution" thing
19:08:26 <kingoffrance> (except for them, always one step ahead)
19:08:40 <kingoffrance> (and they are needed to "bridge" the worlds and translate things to our "understanding")
19:08:49 <kingoffrance> (and totally not trying to manipulate everyone)
19:08:54 <kingoffrance> (that might be sarcasm)
19:10:32 <kingoffrance> so once "everyone" understand whatever they were supposed to learn in one "era" then they move onto the next round of programming people
19:11:37 <kingoffrance> so thats very similar, just they dont consider themselves part of the "everyone" group
19:13:03 <kingoffrance> and "understand the universe" is a "humanity collectively" thing
19:15:31 <kmc> the universe is driven to understand itself
19:15:38 <kmc> humans are just one manifestation of this desire
19:15:56 <kmc> we spontaneously generated out of hydrogen gas
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19:21:26 <kmc> i never met any of these salvia or DMT "entities"
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19:21:35 <kmc> not sure whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to go looking for them
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19:29:22 <kingoffrance> well, i think they just write books/etc. and strategically place them for people to find and if you read books from the wrong era, they probably dont like that, i.e. they would presumably want to destroy programming of prior "eras"
19:29:57 <kingoffrance> aka and/or you have to be programmed to see the "entities"
19:30:05 <kingoffrance> (or program yourself)
19:30:33 <kingoffrance> thus, it seems a "real to them" IMO
19:30:52 <kingoffrance> (and they say other things dont apply to them, because they are not part of the mass of whatever era)
19:31:46 <kingoffrance> aka i think it is not uncommon they claim only similar and/or competing entities can see the other entities
19:32:44 <kingoffrance> i guess i only interpret such thing 100% symbolically
19:33:04 <kingoffrance> and people familiar with symbolism might "make them come true/real"
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19:36:10 <kingoffrance> im interested in character sets for programming, so symbols i always try to find "meanings" of
19:36:16 <kingoffrance> is why i read such things
19:37:43 <kingoffrance> lots of things i think are the "27 conspiracy" which IIRC was "people thought 27 meant something, so then they started seeing it everywhere"
19:38:24 <kingoffrance> i dont know a "cure" for that except "familiarize yourself with more conspiracies" and process of elimination
19:40:05 <kingoffrance> i might be too negative IMO "why do people start clubs/religions/cults/whatever?" because they want to take out/replace other ones
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19:42:31 <zzo38> I think that does not seem to be the only reason to start clubs/religions/cults/whatever, although sometimes it is.
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20:41:08 <kmc> weird al puts 27 in a lot of his songs
20:41:13 <kmc> I usually think of 23 as a more significant number
20:41:16 <kmc> because of discordianism
20:41:33 <kmc> I have a book about how the world will end in 2012
20:41:37 <kmc> i bought it for a laugh
20:41:39 <kmc> several years after 2012
20:46:42 <int-e> . o O ( 2nd edition, including a new chapter on why the world is ending so slowly )
20:48:02 <int-e> I'm reading a random scifi thing where the world does end in 2012, published in 2012. Everybody is dead. Well, almost everybody, because otherwise there wouldn't be a story. I'll probably regret reading it the moment I finish. :)
20:50:39 <int-e> Anyway it did mention the Mayan calendar. Is there any other reason why the world ended in 2012?
20:51:39 <kmc> i'm not sure
20:51:46 <kmc> i think people came up with all kinds of questionable reasons
20:52:39 <int-e> too bad they were wrong
20:53:20 <imode> the world did end, the rest of us didn't get the memo though.
20:54:13 <kmc> the world only just started last Tuesday
20:54:25 <kmc> everything you remember before that is a false memory implanted in you at creation
20:55:20 <int-e> Meh, it should've been Thursday.
20:55:24 <imode> they did a shit job at making it believable then.
20:56:24 <int-e> kmc: Time (and its progression) is one of the more mind-boggling conspiracies around.
20:57:57 <int-e> `? time
20:57:59 <HackEso> time? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:58:58 <int-e> `learn Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
20:59:01 <HackEso> Learned 'time': Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
21:00:43 <int-e> . o O ( Can't have enough Douglas Adams quotes. )
21:30:41 <kingoffrance> there are lots symbolic reasons for ~2000 (perhaps based on mayan too, however indirectly/imprecisely or even "unintentionally") but yeah "the world" of such things i only interpret as symbolic "end of an era"
21:30:56 <kingoffrance> didnt stop my nick from going back to a previous era :)
21:31:31 <kingoffrance> at best IMO "when the symbology changes, then there are literal effects"
21:31:42 <kingoffrance> but any "the literal world is ending" doesnt make any sense to me
21:32:21 <kingoffrance> because if any of that is true, then it would be "transformed for a new era" IMO
21:33:09 <kingoffrance> so it would only "end" for people who want to stay in the prior era
21:33:23 <kingoffrance> and since it was all based on "symbiology" they can just cling to their symbols IMO
21:33:47 <kingoffrance> i.e. they dont have to go along with the "new definitions"
21:35:04 <kingoffrance> my nick hasnt been struck by lightning :/ just crash through the "death wall" like indiana jones (ropes/knots == trinity i believe, symbology all over that clip i linked)
21:35:21 <kingoffrance> if indiana jones can escape the millenial pyramid, clearly there are ways out
21:35:32 <kingoffrance> someone made that movie :)
21:36:44 <kingoffrance> indiana jones escaped "1000 years" of the millenium, thats good enough for me :)
21:36:54 <int-e> I don't think I follow. I'm sure I don't want to follow either.
21:45:37 <zzo38> I found a PostScript program which makes a second version of a Discordian deck, and it includes a subroutine for writing Mayan numbers.
21:52:24 <imode> crazy is in full force, i see.
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21:54:35 <int-e> fungot should chime in
21:54:35 <fungot> int-e: which was very annoying problem which causes inability to access ash without a crash ( and thus often spelled) " chitlins".
21:56:53 <kingoffrance> thats why i stay away from "advent of code" :/ too millenial for me :/
22:03:24 <kingoffrance> same reason i dont trust unicode; i dont trust anyone trying to "merge" everything
22:04:37 <imode> tell us how you really feel.
22:09:33 <zzo38> I don't like Unicode either; I think it is a mess. One character set isn't going to be good for all purposes.
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22:25:05 <kingoffrance> snakes == forked tongue, alchemical merging, hermes/prometheus/etc. :/ thus is unicode to me :/
22:29:46 <zzo38> I do not quite understand your point
22:45:01 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69340&oldid=69098 * Lebster * (+204) /* Examples */
22:47:04 <kingoffrance> i dont accept their new definitions of "charset" i stick with the prior one :)
22:47:17 <kingoffrance> IMO they had to redefine things to match the new system
22:47:32 <kingoffrance> so "speaking out of both sides of their mouth" IMO
22:50:26 <kingoffrance> ive had to many debates with ppl, i will spare you the details, but left me unconvinced they are doing anything but playing word games
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22:58:42 <imode> if you have a competing standard, and you think it's objectively better, then post it and advocate for its adoption.
23:00:21 <kingoffrance> i dont, i just am experimenting; that is the whole problem: i have different goals
23:00:37 <kingoffrance> theirs seems to be "there is no plaintext, only encodings"
23:00:54 <kingoffrance> to me, that is up to each os/cpu/whatever to decide what is the "native encoding" == plaintext (in that realm)
23:01:22 <kingoffrance> my "plaintext" == native tongue of whatever speaker/reader/listener
23:02:03 <kingoffrance> so we are oppositely focussed, coming from different directions
23:02:05 <imode> that's nice. the rest of us have to share information.
23:02:18 <imode> between systems.
23:02:40 <imode> and, there is no "plaintext": you're still interpreting numbers as glyphs or partial glyphs.
23:03:06 <kingoffrance> yes and no; charsets dont necessarily mean "glyphs" IMO; headless servers exist, for example
23:03:17 <kingoffrance> they can still process such data without displaying anywhere
23:03:41 <imode> a glyph does not have to be displayed to mean something in an encoding.
23:05:20 <zzo38> I think that one character set isn't going to be good for all purposes, so I do not have a competing standard, although I do have some which are specific to some purposes, and are not meant for all purposes.
23:05:28 <kingoffrance> exactly ^^^^^
23:06:04 <kingoffrance> its no different IMO than countries have some "native" language or not, or a set of languages they e.g. print laws in
23:06:09 <imode> unicode isn't the best. better than what we have.
23:06:17 <imode> s/have/have had
23:06:25 <kingoffrance> if in "real world' i ever had to do i18n stuff, i may feel different :)
23:06:25 <imode> a set of mutually incompatible encodings.
23:06:43 <kingoffrance> but for "hobby" stuff, it makes little sense to me
23:06:58 <imode> yeah if you're not doing anything serious, why bother trying.
23:07:22 <kingoffrance> well i just want my metaphorical france, not the metaphorical world :)
23:07:40 <kingoffrance> what does it profit a character set to gain the world and lose themself?
23:08:36 <kingoffrance> if anyone someday wants to "translate" my stuff, they will have ample means, i am not locking such out
23:08:57 <imode> crazy is in full force.
23:09:12 <int-e> `? esoteric
23:09:13 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
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23:24:48 <imode> how would Thue's usability change if you added "nonlocal" matches? i.e for each rule, you have multiple substrings on the left and right, and only when all substrings on the left are present, they're replaced with the corresponding substrings on the right.
23:25:37 <imode> "foo:bar, baz:quux;" for example. the replacements only happen when both `foo` and `baz` are present in the input string.
23:27:11 <imode> but if they are, then `foo` gets replaced with `bar`, and `baz` gets replaced with `quux`.
23:58:42 <kingoffrance> im sure unicode is great for multinational enterprises, i dont think it scales to individuals
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