< 1583280399 61454 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583281727 835262 :MTGBusyBeaver2!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583282312 391242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1583283052 295389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70120&oldid=70115 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+138) 10/* Glossary */ < 1583283356 967180 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583283434 434911 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1583287276 84628 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70121&oldid=70113 5* 03Ais523 5* (+591) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ I don't know the minimum, but it's a lot less than 124 < 1583287355 61390 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583287526 1484 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583290814 324771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583290849 51770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re the M:tG Turing machine: if all you want is a TWM problem that the judges won't be able to work out the resolution of, I recommend quadratic residuosity < 1583290856 419184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be pretty easy to implement in TWM < 1583290878 549921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/70743/what-makes-the-quadratic-residuosity-problem-hard as a setup for encoding QRosity into TWM, hopefully in a program that's small enough to memorise < 1583290907 633975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the issue being that we need to find an example program for which there's no known way to discover whether it halts or not in a viable length of time) < 1583291166 404023 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583291171 726620 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583291470 916977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: I'm going to bed now but I'll try to get online tomorrow, the idea of combining a universal computer and a no-infinite-loops deck hadn't occured to me at all but is the sort of ridiculousness I approve of < 1583291490 86721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: bedtime < 1583292017 402405 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583292323 619826 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9466:854e:4c69:46e7 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583293856 351342 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some of the more simple ones I've seen in other ]] < 1583293878 559852 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :err other simple systems are a twin prime checker and a collatz relative in CGOL < 1583293894 249009 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are still pretty complicated, and aided by the 2d nature of the CA < 1583294916 26541 :diverger!~div@165.231.163.8 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583294980 93537 :diverger!~div@185.153.151.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583297567 249672 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks ais523, unsolved problems arent actually very good, as either it is proved false in which case the machine never halts, or there is a counter example probably at less than 10^^^10, which is a score we can already beat. < 1583297606 407807 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we want to implement the biggest busy beaver machine possible < 1583297720 392745 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is limited by the namespace, so we really get the improvement via a UTM. < 1583297893 528834 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does a waterfall UTM work? We can get oodles of googles as the variables in a waterfall program, what sort of ratio are we getting for the inputs to the size of machine simulated? < 1583298146 425971 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention that we can iterate the UTM to get BB(BB(....BB(X)...)) < 1583301869 18052 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1583307963 215670 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583307987 794607 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583308902 280020 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583309642 616013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you can't < 1583309651 976371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't get BB(BB(X)) < 1583309824 479492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I find it ridiculous when an ultrafinitist argues that 10**400 might not exist, but if you talk about BB(BB(X)) I might have some more sympathy to their side) < 1583310039 894104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you can get is BB(X) for a large X, just by putting O(X) (or maybe O(2)**X) tokens somewhere into the waterfall program, so you can't just compute BB(100), which is already ridiculous, but BB(10**(10**100)) < 1583310341 959251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, you very likely can't even get BB(100), you can only pick a long-running program that you can prove will finish < 1583310351 300185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that won't run for anything close to BB(100) turns < 1583310371 80780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it can run longer than most of the other M:tG loop constructions > 1583310556 121404 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Int**14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70122&oldid=70071 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-15) 10/* Computational class */ > 1583310561 515976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Int**14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70123&oldid=70075 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2104) 10/* Consistency */ < 1583310842 753507 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583313037 17963 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: how to reconnect in a private chat? < 1583313292 531026 :trn!jhj@prone.ws QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1583313942 63125 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JulienDelplanque 5* 10New user account < 1583313947 786431 :trn!jhj@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric > 1583314405 674495 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70124&oldid=70111 5* 03JulienDelplanque 5* (+211) 10Added myself. < 1583314543 912251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583314826 835561 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: your unsatisfiability proof is correct, except that the center using all 3 colors can only be concluded in the 6th diagram < 1583315084 503620 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583315101 720374 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583315702 750792 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583320375 252186 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583320548 358241 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1583320618 863989 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70125&oldid=65631 5* 03JulienDelplanque 5* (+118) 10Added Pharo BytePusher VM. < 1583321526 940195 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osnpiktwoxvkwwoq JOIN :#esoteric < 1583321924 685086 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583322073 358794 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583322509 389918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583323296 727283 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ThisIsTheFoxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70126&oldid=63860 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+14) 10/* Links n' Stuff update URL*/ > 1583323314 295976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ThisIsTheFoxe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70127&oldid=70126 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+1) 10/* Links n' Stuff */ > 1583323347 332160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ThisIsTheFoxe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70128&oldid=70127 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+7) 10/* Links n' Stuff */ > 1583324501 147887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Segreq14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70129 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+3251) 10Created page with "Segreq (SEcond GRade EQuation) is a language created in 2020 by [[User:Hanzlu]]. The language operates on a row of cells and a stack. The commands in the language are second..." > 1583324912 607993 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Segreq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70130&oldid=70129 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+40) 10 < 1583325006 665950 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583326054 367712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583326460 45518 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jrrunvwrjxtrswms QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583326477 51656 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bhvjebukmozxpoaa JOIN :#esoteric < 1583326500 205155 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583326530 164853 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep JOIN :#esoteric < 1583326535 713776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583326608 226838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583326991 146801 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70131&oldid=70119 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+204) 10 > 1583327110 679300 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70132&oldid=70131 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-1) 10 > 1583327154 297509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70133&oldid=70132 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+97) 10 > 1583327689 939474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70134&oldid=70133 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 > 1583328597 62092 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70135&oldid=70120 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2312) 10/* Operators */ and /* Branching */ < 1583328756 144764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think MTGBusyBeaver's point is that you can create an M:tG deck that's capable of simulating all The Waterfall Model programs below a specific size, but can't get any output from the simulations unless they halt > 1583328767 427181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70136&oldid=70134 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+96) 10 > 1583328771 982266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70137&oldid=70135 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+196) 10/* Variables */ < 1583328803 806211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is now "how much damage can this deck do turn 1?", which is a busy beaver problem, as it'll depend on which program produces the largest output < 1583328868 23135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't require you to find some specific program (although it's helpful to show that you can at least construct a UTM, because that gives you a bound on how fast the busy beaver function grows in this context) > 1583328879 454582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70138&oldid=70137 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+80) 10/* Subpages */ < 1583328912 553067 :Tembai!c2c408be@194.196.8.190 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583329046 301366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70139&oldid=70136 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+95) 10 < 1583329587 82095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric > 1583329792 382576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70140&oldid=70138 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1036) 10/* Functions */ < 1583329803 721540 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1583329863 595172 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70141&oldid=70140 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+72) 10/* Glossary */ < 1583330863 671698 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583331165 410411 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583331763 672209 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583331899 669944 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric > 1583332151 979522 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70142&oldid=70139 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-7412) 10Replaced content with "A Language I Made But It Has No Name The language is supposed to be similar to English written text and rather easy to use and read. Interpreter [https://github.com/Hanz..." < 1583333399 616642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: fwiw, I'm concerned about the use of Arcbond in the construction; what's to prevent a player setting up an infinitely looping machine without protecting the opponent from Arcbond, and doing infinite damage that way? < 1583333416 252589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does the fact that the opponent loses at 0 life count as stopping the loop, and thus it isn't infinite damage unless you do it all at once? < 1583333883 373632 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583334003 673573 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583334143 666845 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583334237 667251 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583334347 376363 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes if the opponent dies thegame ends. < 1583334422 360185 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583334453 448386 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583334662 19610 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for iterating the BB function, why is that not something we can do? The BB machine outputs a lot of some resource, then we use that resource to build an even bigger TM and use a more finite resource to trigger the run. < 1583334687 900247 :Tembai!c2c408be@194.196.8.190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583334801 873679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The busy beaver function is uncomputable. < 1583334831 630087 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is by definition some finite number < 1583334855 286116 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we will never know it exactly < 1583334914 878831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a function, so it's not just a single number. < 1583335060 786211 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(X) is the busy beaver number of a turing machine of size X, taking the integers to the integers, so BB(BB(X)) is a well formed statement, even though we will never be able to evaluate it < 1583335062 148032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a conceptual gap here somewhere. For example, we can create a Turing machine, that, given n, outputs a sequence lower bounds for the busy beaver function, such that the last value output is the value of the busy beaver function itself. < 1583335187 821888 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that TM never halts? < 1583335237 873846 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get how you intend to accomplish that iteration. < 1583335354 329967 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the MTG:TM incidentially outputs lets say life for us. and the size of the TM we can make is limited by our life, and running the TM takes something else eg: red mana. > 1583335409 882419 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70143&oldid=70142 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1889) 10 < 1583335440 168234 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say we start with a combo that makes X life and 5 red, then use our TM to turn 1 red into BB(X) < 1583335482 423109 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can spend another red after the BB machine halts to run BB(BB(X)) < 1583335501 890156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no TM that computes BB(X), given X. < 1583335545 533256 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there is a size X machine that outputs BB(X) < 1583335595 169758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes (more or less). But *you* have to know what that machine is when setting up the computation. < 1583335616 228749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when you iterate, *you* have to come up with the TM of size BB(X) that outputs BB(BB(X))? < 1583335765 687748 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No we don't, knowing the machine exists is enough to define it. < 1583335797 427685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1583335809 329754 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for our purposes at least < 1583335827 35083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm missing something about the intention here. < 1583335854 848460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you wanted to leave the game in a state where there are no choices left, and leave it to the arbiter to run it to its conclusion. < 1583335875 542413 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we want to do the most damage possible. < 1583335905 882617 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you doing something like assuming best play by both players? < 1583335948 226174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suppose that would bring you into ATM territory where you can play such tricks indeed.) < 1583335961 540465 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But again, all the burden of finding the machines would be on the players.) < 1583335989 218700 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little stronger than that. Our opponent knows what we are trying and is trying to either minimze the total damage or disqualify the deck by allowing it to go infinite. < 1583336123 481051 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :single card draw is a Demonic Tutor in disguise: you can assume that the order of your deck is exactly what you want it to be. This veers pretty heavily into magical christmasland, but if we didn’t do it this way you’d have to figure out the average amount of damage a deck could deal, which is probably impossible. < 1583336124 83865 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a deck of 60 wastes. However, they are still playing to stop you: if you give your opponent a choice, they will pick whichever one is worse for you. The only exception is that they won’t concede the game. This is a sadistic goldfish that wants to make you play it out. < 1583336124 557964 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the time, so we define it like this: when you make your deck, I pick a finite number, say, a million, or Graham’s Number, or four. If, no matter what number I pick, there’s a line your deck can take that will deal at least that much damage, your deck goes infinite and is disqualified. < 1583336125 555724 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic apply: if I put 80,000,000 copies of Shock on the stack and target my opponent with each one, they’ll die on the tenth one, and I’ll have dealt only 20 damage. In practice, that means you’re either winning with a giant X-spell or by attacking with a lot of very big creatures. < 1583336265 399543 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do the most damage possible in MtG" reminds me a lot of "Name the Biggest Number": https://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html < 1583336300 873477 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'll be generous and let you go first. < 1583336316 870216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's how it works, doesn't it?) < 1583336337 64777 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you say you had a less-than in 58 bits with coroutines? < 1583336434 690981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: Yes. < 1583336450 650176 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was able to reproduce that:) < 1583336474 969192 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more straightforward than your div and even your min < 1583336493 868900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I thought that if you take 'min' as the blueprint you should be able to find the comparisons :) < 1583336495 334254 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see now what you mean by div (m+1) being ewsier < 1583336498 609713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can work on BB(10) and you can have a working theory for what BB(10) might be but you'll never know if it actually is BB(10). Similarly, you could work on BB(BB(10)) but you have to revise your theory about BB(BB(10)) every time you revise your theory about BB(10). < 1583336532 545577 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still surprising that you can do div m with only an additional appllication to id < 1583336536 734058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: It has occurred to me that maybe a divisibility test would be a tad shorter than the modulo operation. < 1583336588 194962 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I haven't put that one to the test though, yet.) < 1583336705 600705 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a problem? We are basically playing that name the biggest number game, We can get a bit beyond Ackermann numbers in standard. < 1583336724 999813 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though on a later turn) < 1583336889 505664 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you also try a less-than-or-equal ? < 1583336902 614640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: it's the same? < 1583336911 304500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I mean, swap the arguments and true and false < 1583336955 731588 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point:-) < 1583337083 684774 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583337259 451294 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583337419 524986 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583337654 772775 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: Which is fine. Basically you're looking for busy beavers, where the model of computation of M:tG. You can define a busy beaver function for that, say in terms of the deck size. < 1583337666 579861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: But none of that lets you iterate the busy beaver function itself. < 1583337674 559167 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's uncomputable. < 1583337714 410498 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :only this week we worked out a turing machine setup that works in the rules, < 1583337756 762537 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can set it up to be repeatable some finite number of times < 1583337796 132797 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no Turing machine that computes BB(x) < 1583337873 779198 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but there is some turing machine of size x that outputs BB(x) < 1583337904 150174 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's certainly one that takes that many cycles to halt < 1583337937 260175 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or well, writes that number of 1s on the tape < 1583337964 244700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "there's a line in your deck" is not precise enough. < 1583337965 200635 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't then take that number and emit BB(BB(x)) without knowing the answer beforehand < 1583337980 924211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that mean, exactly? < 1583337991 863385 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At which point, why not just do that directly? Why not go straight to BB(BB(x)) + 1? < 1583338001 317450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Who gets to make the choices for that line of play?) < 1583338009 786554 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opponent < 1583338020 841672 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah then you have no alternation. < 1583338033 490039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no way of iterating the busy beaver function at all, not even theoretically. < 1583338036 713733 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1583338060 317689 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: please add div test term to the repo if it offers nontrivial improvement over mod size < 1583338073 934597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the opponent will just pick a non-terminating TM instead. < 1583338087 207463 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shld be called divides.lam i guess < 1583338091 184288 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a ton terminating TM doesnt do any damage < 1583338096 162579 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :non* < 1583338110 285361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: "non-terminating" was for "something that does infinite damage". < 1583338118 581824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unbounded, which is the same. < 1583338139 137470 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the only way to do damage is by attacking with all the giant creatures the TM makes < 1583338148 805601 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the TM never halts we cant attack < 1583338192 723576 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583338296 52488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I see, I'm wrong about needing alternation. < 1583338329 130951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plain non-determinism is enough, and you get that. < 1583338388 695647 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need the TM to be deterministic, or we can just loop for an arbitrary amount of time and then halt < 1583338424 226708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-determinism is in the choices the player can make in setting up that TM. < 1583338480 543982 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes we have that < 1583338590 396299 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The working TM implementation of the Waterfall Model is here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?comment=2434 < 1583338678 615669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have: NTM A(n): guess TM B of size n; run B to completion; return number of steps taken, and a computational model that discards all non-terminating runs and picks the maximum value produced by the others. < 1583338706 83601 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583338829 27980 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1583338872 27171 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a computational model that discards all non-terminating runs" < 1583338914 66627 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a run that never terminates does no damage and scores zero < 1583338953 699955 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you propose to test a run to see if it will never terminate < 1583339005 972750 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :very carefully. ;) < 1583339062 272022 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need to every actually construct the busy beaver machines, just know that they are bounded by BB(n) < 1583339062 345828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You don't. < 1583339087 554397 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's a perfectly fine definition, just not computable. < 1583339121 384350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: Obviously to actually deal that amount of money you still have to fine the busy beavers. < 1583339125 997568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :money? < 1583339130 95770 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun brain fart. < 1583339135 893911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant damage. < 1583339199 746224 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know you bet on MTG int-e. :P < 1583339217 828648 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we just want to set bounds for the damage, highest lowest bound with an upper bound wins < 1583339220 37747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I don't. But I imagine it would be as good a way of losing money as all the others. < 1583339286 40461 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :high-stakes MTG tournaments lmao. < 1583339307 788350 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can bound it by BB(...BB(X)...) < 1583339366 862654 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB^X(X) for some large X < 1583339563 494792 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Did you notice you didn't stop at "money", you also said "fine" for "find"? < 1583339640 222670 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Image of a parking patroller tucking a ticket under the wipers on a Turing machine. < 1583339689 4700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e's all about the money, all about the dum dum da da dum dum. < 1583339716 377432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No I had not noticed that. < 1583339730 370266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's a plausible typo though, at least. < 1583339799 296672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a little unclear on whether just having a (perfectly fine) definition is sufficient for MtG, or if you have to actually, you know, be able to compute it, in order to take your turn. < 1583339844 51170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think it works just as MTGBusyBeaver claims... you don't need to know what the upper bound is, just that it exists. > 1583339914 197414 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Micky 5* 10New user account < 1583339946 922629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And the trick is, non-termination doesn't kill you; it's only the things that do terminate that eventually deal you any damage. < 1583339988 688508 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'd like to be a little less handwavey and at least explicitly construct/explain/justify the UTM in the Waterfall method < 1583340026 601031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's a really funny situation where given a candidate for an upper bound you'll (probably) never be able to tell whether it's big enough already :) < 1583340027 589600 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we are limited to 124 waterclocks < 1583340030 404927 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "In principle there's a TM that deals a huge amount of damage because it computes BB(...(BB(10)...), but I don't know exactly what that TM is" is sufficient? < 1583340038 676777 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so then OK < 1583340067 435393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, it's an NTM that computes that thing, and we do know what that NTM is. < 1583340078 872089 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are the NTM < 1583340080 971339 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we can't run NTMs in practice. < 1583340106 487826 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um < 1583340152 258462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Somewhere, internally, that NTM *guesses* the actual TM. < 1583340189 496606 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are only finitely many possible TMs of a given size < 1583340192 865382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or TMs, plural. One that computes BB(10), one that computes BB(BB(10)), and so on. < 1583340215 808310 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An NTM guesses a TM" is roughly the same as "In principle there's a TM", what I said < 1583340230 855897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: True. < 1583340265 619461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also kind of missing the point; for any natural number n, there's a TM that computes n. > 1583340269 792576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70144&oldid=70124 5* 03Micky 5* (+438) 10/* Introductions */ Hi < 1583340312 212512 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I didn't mention the size constraint either, so I'm not sure what my objection is. < 1583340755 689670 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1583340861 879629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* 10moved [[02User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox10]] to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]: Deserves its own page > 1583340878 563930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70147&oldid=70145 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-21) 10/* (Unnamed language) */ > 1583340916 152518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70148&oldid=70107 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+80) 10/* Languages */ > 1583341012 937415 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70149&oldid=70147 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+89) 10/* Datatypes */ < 1583341112 892643 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1583341231 839798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : we are the NTM => I would doubt that < 1583341291 532288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :many-world quantum physics gets somewhat close < 1583341303 183270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even that has a hard time collecting results < 1583341738 302480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the idea with this Magic construction is that it lets you calculate any number a UTM can calculate < 1583341744 901360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to a certain size n < 1583341761 480648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we know that it's capable of calculating BB(n) and no higher number, but we don't know what input you have to give it to produce that < 1583341799 71524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there doesn't seem to be a conceputal issue with iterating that: you could perhaps modify it so that it's capable of calculating a range of numbers of which the highest is BB(BB(n)), given the appropriate input < 1583341802 793434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not be able to determine what that input is < 1583341821 955983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason this works is that what we have is, conceptually, an interpreter that refuses to run non-halting programs < 1583341869 30149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really should create a universal interpreter for some TC language in TWM some day, even if it's far from optimal < 1583341874 951205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to get a baseline < 1583341886 948171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on how many waterclocks you need < 1583341893 929020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep on getting sidetracked trying to optimise it < 1583341911 899746 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, even if it is inefficient as long as it works with 124 waterclocks < 1583341930 733992 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably way more than needed < 1583341961 182596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the limit's a little less than 124 because you need a few creature types to set it up, right? Cat in particular is unusable < 1583341977 787562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but much less than 124 seems definitely viable < 1583342008 830767 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the halting clock is one of the 124 > 1583342064 927166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70150&oldid=70149 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+372) 10/* Functions */ < 1583342089 116056 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we get to use everything else as we can make the setup creatures lose their types (and avoid arcbond damage) with One with the stars < 1583342092 32352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally count halt states, although not everybody does < 1583342120 461515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a fun card, and one I came up with myself when brainstorming custom cards (although my version of it was white) < 1583342208 390513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name One With the Stars < 1583342210 353799 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1583342223 724654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, I need to persuade someone to add Theros Beyond Death to that thing < 1583342228 890230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Hungry Lynx < 1583342229 986127 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R < 1583342233 893603 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enchanted permanent is an enchantment and loses all other card types. (It still has its abilities, but it’s no longer a creature.) < 1583342245 20992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly just trying to show it off < 1583342285 752851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: can you update HackEso's M:tG database to include the latest cards? given the current topic of discussion it may well be relevant < 1583342299 969374 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we don't use hungry lynx anymore < 1583342312 632381 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'card-by-name coat of arms < 1583342321 61808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :backquote, not apostrophe < 1583342331 999328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that was an interesting idea for the construction < 1583342332 655928 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name coat of arms < 1583342333 559340 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R < 1583342346 551495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main aim was to hit the whole thing into a sideboard, so I wanted to do it with as few cards as possible < 1583342362 718344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but single-purpose cards are much better for what you're doing < 1583342457 742429 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still fits in a sideboard > 1583342496 709830 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70151&oldid=70150 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+245) 10/* Variables */ < 1583342507 101248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, neat < 1583342514 836014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Coat of Arms is an artifact, so it might be hard to wish it out of the sideboard < 1583342588 530209 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several ways to wish for it < 1583342649 710218 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Karn, the great creator < 1583342651 604010 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1583342684 829139 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't been updated in a while? < 1583342690 96643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but the point is that you'd need extra cards in maindeck for sideboard < 1583342694 550230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think it's out of date < 1583342752 679787 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fae of wishes is another pretty generic wish < 1583342772 755956 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Mastermind's acquisition < 1583342788 815627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omni-tell naturally runs multiple Cunning Wish and Burning Wish, which is one of the things that made it such a good shell to set the UTM up < 1583342801 148976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the whole point was to make a UTM that was tournament-competitive < 1583342839 643786 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well wish for Mastermind's acquisition for the rest of the SB < 1583342933 230226 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the sb doesnt have enough slots to ensure your opponent can't interact also. < 1583342948 786666 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1583343444 637890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would the presence of Doubling Season mess up an attempt to use the UTM? < 1583343478 367261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. by, if it were still on the battlefield at that point, producing too many triggers that could be stacked in awkward ways to introduce player-choosable nondeterminism? < 1583343603 851786 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the order the tokens etb doesn't change the operation of TM < 1583343613 525694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if there are too many of them? < 1583343715 985665 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are more than expected, there will be some other operation we are doing, but it doesnt give us extra choices < 1583343725 269446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, in that case it's fine < 1583343734 982145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming we have a way to get rid of the Doubling Seasons, and I suspect we do) < 1583343788 455984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement < 1583343806 957774 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1583343816 262362 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, we can bounce them < 1583343820 699626 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583343823 718704 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1583343833 305240 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can bounce the doubling seasons < 1583343852 337228 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :before starting the tm < 1583343917 628103 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583343922 78245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a related note, I was trying to prove Android: Netrunner TC a while back, but I don't think it is < 1583343929 501612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the opposite problem to Yu-Gi-Oh < 1583343945 168855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Yu-Gi-Oh, there are ways to store data but you can't store a program, there just isn't enough room on the playmat < 1583343983 831331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Android: Netrunner, storing a program is trivial (subroutines are a game mechanic!), but although you have a few places to write data, reading it back is incredibly difficult, and I don't think you can get sufficiently many variables that you can read < 1583344147 272336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another issue is that the game designers are paranoid about infinite combos of any sort, although I did manage to construct a nontrivial mandatory infinite loop < 1583344229 410194 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583345285 910216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it involved Always Be Running on the runner side, and two copies of Off the Grid, Whirlpool, Hourglass, and Mirāju on the Corp side, plus one unplayable card in hand; every turn, the runner is forced to run a specific central, is banned from jacking out, loses all their clicks, then puts the corp card from their hand back into their deck) < 1583345302 309797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and on the corp turn they can't do anything but click for credits, assuming their deck is empty) < 1583346314 718518 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1583347162 526455 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1583347270 217585 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583347371 432797 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583347876 763569 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583348453 246351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: pushed (non-)divisibility < 1583348628 148668 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583348660 291642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: (non-divisibility is shorter because of the accident that m false = false for Church numerals m > 0). < 1583349328 971301 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583349676 674897 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583351042 733363 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583351200 779888 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583351212 639532 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1583351603 188912 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70152&oldid=70094 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+16) 10 < 1583351905 142497 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qvguzhyimgduqtfd QUIT :Changing host < 1583351905 198370 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1583351905 198421 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Changing host < 1583351905 198432 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qvguzhyimgduqtfd JOIN :#esoteric < 1583351971 305014 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583351975 123753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1583352197 972080 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583353298 749223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver, ais523, int-e: I'll review this conversation about M:tG later, but not this evening. I was busy with some urgent real life stuff. < 1583353385 6275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sorry, I can't update the database. so far my copies of Oracle were either a straight copy of Yawgatog's database, or mined from the previous iteration of the Oracle website. now I'll have to download the data from the new Oracle site, which I started once but it got complicated so I suspended it indefinitely, or download Scryfall's more accurate database. < 1583353390 10640 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally both and compare them. < 1583353576 820897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now I just want to mention that Lifespark Spellbomb; Utopia Sprawl; Freed from the Real is a simple infinite green mana combo that doesn't also let you deal unlimited damage by attacking with a small creature each turn, so that plus Disintegrate lets you deal an unlimited amount of damage only once < 1583353987 152255 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that combo would disqualify the deck as it is not bounded. > 1583355112 739732 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70153&oldid=70151 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10/* Hello, World! */ Fixed heading level > 1583355767 700751 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iflang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70154&oldid=70118 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-1431) 10Blanked the page > 1583355814 5834 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iflang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70155&oldid=70154 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1431) 10Undo revision 70154 by [[Special:Contributions/Hanzlu|Hanzlu]] ([[User talk:Hanzlu|talk]]) > 1583356688 292405 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70156&oldid=70153 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+217) 10/* Indentation */ > 1583358232 462265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70157&oldid=70104 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+15) 10/* Commands */ Now Ive updated the reference interpreter > 1583358253 18019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70158&oldid=70143 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+2) 10 > 1583358434 139017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70159&oldid=70157 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+38) 10/* Example programs */ > 1583359170 739474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70160&oldid=70159 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+92) 10/* Example programs */ < 1583360789 255620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1583362034 245671 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583363639 554875 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric