< 1583366803 692160 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583367251 401985 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583367323 157067 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1583367749 475170 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1 < 1583367897 540877 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad news for the MTG turing machine for the most damage challenge: Arcbond triggers can be interleaved with death triggers. This seems like a hard problem to fix. < 1583368899 848129 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1583369199 238093 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70161&oldid=70156 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+652) 10/* Input/Output */ < 1583370249 756746 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583371618 576438 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try the Unusenet newsgroup un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.maths if you are interested in those kind of things with Magic: the Gathering; there may also be some Usenet newsgroups about such thing although I do not know which ones they are. < 1583372138 851703 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1583372339 935358 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70162&oldid=70161 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+285) 10/* Cat for 1 char */ FINISH > 1583372867 708384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70163&oldid=70162 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+69) 10/* Interpret PlusOrMinus 1 char at a time */ done < 1583374605 84192 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583378513 639141 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osnpiktwoxvkwwoq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1583379168 334719 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583379354 718950 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583383570 85453 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583384279 912361 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1583386249 947063 :studio!~studio@111.194.159.239 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583386279 363933 :studio!~studio@111.194.159.239 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1583387958 33992 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70164&oldid=70158 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+60) 10 > 1583389104 581550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ZFC++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70165 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+7714) 10+[[ZFC++]] > 1583389108 691 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70166&oldid=70152 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+12) 10+[[ZFC++]] > 1583389109 682432 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70167&oldid=70087 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+12) 10+[[ZFC++]] > 1583390126 634180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ZFC++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70168&oldid=70165 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10 < 1583394312 786410 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583394397 784811 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583397710 785190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-57.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583399239 234685 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep QUIT :*.net *.split < 1583399242 584899 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1583399242 645138 :APic!apic@185.203.114.187 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1583399242 832161 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split < 1583399996 756208 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583401400 685966 :^[!sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep JOIN :#esoteric < 1583401400 686647 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1583401400 686658 :APic!apic@185.203.114.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583401400 686680 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1583401438 150798 :APic!apic@185.203.114.187 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1583401749 456405 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric < 1583402293 755025 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583403134 881408 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I have a vague idea for an esolang. It's like a Turing machine, but instead of writing symbols on the tape, it writes continuations. < 1583403183 728995 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, if you could compare continuations, you could use them like symbols, and that would be boring, so ideally, what the machine does with these continuations written on its tape, is to continue them. < 1583403197 75618 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know how that would work. < 1583403343 635063 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually think it *would* work. One of the salient aspects of a Turing machine is that it looks at what symbols are on the tape, it compares them against something. To do something far removed from that would be very un-Turing-machine-like. < 1583403383 610215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe you can compare them, even though that's boring. < 1583403427 370613 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... well, I'll think about it. < 1583403668 190067 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583404337 106760 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe tape cells contain pairs of continuations. But what determines which one is chosen? < 1583405242 904040 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the absence of closures, continuations are basically jump labels. Maybe this would be more like OISC et al. < 1583407413 367648 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a Turing machine, jump labels are state labels. So, in this, state labels and symbols are the same thing? < 1583407468 687118 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the state written on the tape is not S3, transition to state specified on the tape and move head left" < 1583407491 959188 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to use something like "not", obviously. < 1583407673 141178 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, you are introducing boolean expressions in these conditions. That's more complexity than a simple table, and it's less pleasing. < 1583407716 371413 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe not much, maybe you could still keep it simple somehow. < 1583407813 504163 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583407922 849783 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583408332 745108 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583411106 657147 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the state written on the tape is less than the current state, transition to it and write Sn on the tape and move the head L/R. Else if greater, transition to it and write Sm and move L/R. Else transition to Sz and maybe do other stuff." < 1583411123 870928 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which assumes a total order on states but whatever < 1583411147 727710 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't make an omelette and whatever < 1583411219 336820 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we can drop "And maybe do other stuff". So every state's tuple is like (state, direction, state, direction, state). < 1583411272 601935 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :S1=(S4, L, S5, L, S9), and so forth < 1583411285 954816 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this might work. I don't know that it's very interesting. < 1583411760 130575 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait wait. Does making two small holes in an egg in order to blow it out count as breaking it? If not, then it should be possible to make an omelette without breaking any eggs. < 1583412126 7141 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vvexzcxcewbtqobh JOIN :#esoteric < 1583413668 551720 :laerlingSAP!~laerlings@unaffiliated/laerlingsap JOIN :#esoteric > 1583413998 321607 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70169&oldid=70163 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+18) 10/* Interpret PlusOrMinus 1 char at a time */ < 1583415892 570134 :kspalaiologos!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583419227 571836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: an interesting idea! < 1583419291 156752 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would this turn into if one uses delimited continuations as an inspiration? or (algebraic?) effects? < 1583419293 957584 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you just make one on the bottom and let it all drip out? < 1583419379 281703 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omletwise, that is, no comment on the esolang idea > 1583420070 101550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03JulienDelplanque 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Langton ant.png10]]" > 1583420315 76870 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70171&oldid=70125 5* 03JulienDelplanque 5* (+230) 10Added Langton ant BP software. < 1583420325 847641 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would this turn into if one uses delimited continuations as an inspiration? or (algebraic?) effects? => hm I think these aren’t compatible with the spirit that TC is “imperative” < 1583420373 807142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do this now!" "I'll do it later and get back to you." < 1583420403 407749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(delimited by end of working day? :P) < 1583420458 959402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still don't get delimited continuations.) < 1583420478 580195 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ashnrlihdczoegfn QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1583420484 691902 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1583420491 545910 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't pretend to understand what delimited continuations are or how they work < 1583420504 85558 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-aaeagmmblkltdfop JOIN :#esoteric < 1583420508 107956 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1583423681 156924 :kspalaiologos2!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583423732 348465 :kspalaiologos!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583423739 259464 :kspalaiologos2!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 NICK :kspalaiologos < 1583424034 889325 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any TI wizards out there? Having problems with TI-Connect, I essentially own a TI83+ and a silverlink, I'm able to transfer programs from the calculator to my PC, but not the other way round < 1583424070 312388 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :always getting an error on TI side saying "error in xmit" < 1583424088 448049 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried various USB ports, tried clearing ram, tried changing batteries < 1583424112 28944 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I removed the drivers too < 1583424122 948600 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but installed them soon afterwards again < 1583424189 132385 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I suspect that you're the most qualified TI calculator wizard here < 1583424207 829556 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1583424229 421918 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired of BASIC and I'd like some of my assembly programs sent over. I've got them in a correct .8xp format < 1583424368 576625 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: does it work if you transfer the same BASIC program back that you have sent from the calculator? < 1583424370 191495 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583424588 6585 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583424606 990040 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did reboot < 1583424617 241560 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'll check that < 1583424767 398814 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583424828 551114 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :works! < 1583424831 45407 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so < 1583424918 862459 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a weird game for y’all: take four points randomly in some area, make a Bézier curve on them, then vary one of the points to make that curve have the least length possible, by hand :o < 1583425011 993016 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't pretend to understand what delimited continuations are or how they work => sad :( I think I had some understanding one time, and that required to use a call stack and cut/paste segments of it < 1583425032 331092 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ too < 1583425077 932610 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think shift…reset, or was there something less confusing to express them, is nonetheless less clear than effects+handlers < 1583425177 807191 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s like `shift` does the work which should be done in another place (cf. try…except for exceptions) and because of that delimited continuations are weird and unhandy. Call/cc is too by virtue of being a `shift` without `reset` < 1583425193 820600 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have compiled my app for ION shell < 1583425201 425317 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed it to an asm( executable < 1583425209 332153 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work aswell though < 1583425220 17263 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: what’s ION? < 1583425237 546087 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI83+ shell < 1583425250 173478 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1583425262 586563 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try Devpac8x < 1583425397 271946 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xaxaxaxa it worked < 1583425446 824361 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to function though < 1583425452 537368 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1583425508 432485 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so out of ideas, what could go wrong < 1583425682 670535 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. shift…reset: a call to `reset` marks a place in the call stack and then when we call `shift`, that marks the other end of the segment which is cut away and packaged into a delimited continuation which is fed, as a kind of closure, to the function passed to `shift`. If `shift` doesn’t happen, so be it, the `reset` mark would perish when we step out of the call to `reset`. Yes this is more or less easy but nonetheless I’d have an effectful pri < 1583425682 776931 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitives instead of `shift` and handlers instead of both `reset` points and passing a “handler” to `shift`. This is the way with exceptions (`throw` as a handlerless `shift`, `catch` as a handler, though we don’t get a continuation because the effect is the most boring one possible) < 1583425878 999712 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more specifically, because `throw :: exc -(Throws)> Void`, so if we would get a continuation, it would be an uncallable one (a → Void), and so we usually aren’t given one. If I get it right < 1583425899 404686 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would need to consult a paper on this if someone would be interested in these details < 1583425923 27731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had a link to a paper here a while ago that cast continuations as evaluation contexts < 1583425945 990333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: delimited too? < 1583425948 953834 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c08a:6e04:374a:a0e2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583425954 836612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, delimited < 1583425969 190063 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1583425971 152820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A context being a term with a single hole... it has a root and the hole where you can plug stuff in. < 1583426013 591283 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw if there’s a formulation more like effectful primitives + handlers instead like shift…reset, I may love delimited continuations back again < 1583426037 783534 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so `shift` gets a ... a "delimited continuation" that extends from the `shift` to the `reset`. What happens when you call this "delimited continuation"? I mean, what happens when it finishes? < 1583426054 491220 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it return to somewhere? < 1583426077 135761 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you plug the argument into the place where reset was invoked. < 1583426088 951605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it returns to the `reset`. < 1583426099 655761 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not a continuation at all, it's a regular function. < 1583426102 685492 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it isn’t too possible as there can be many sorts of effects, and we’ll need dynamic typing in the worst case, static in the best, and then we’ll get algebraic effects < 1583426125 841750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really true that 'shift' gets a delimited continuation as an argument either. you can perform actual computations inside shift before `reset` is performed. It's all rather messy. < 1583426126 413663 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: `shift` effectively would return out of a call to `reset` < 1583426145 365553 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, if it will at all) < 1583426165 861917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And that part (evaluation before reset) makes it much closer to a continuation < 1583426172 427021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/makes/brings/ < 1583426184 888800 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :verdict: z88dk is garbage, omit it if you'd like to keep your sanity, tigcc doesn't target TI83 at all, therefore there is no C compiler for TI83+ < 1583426186 2816 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just never mind, I've already given up again < 1583426191 243104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just "fix" the part where continuations never return. < 1583426191 829162 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah `shift` gets a handler which it applies to a d. continuation < 1583426227 602708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because that part makes continuations highly non-modular) < 1583426245 294887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not convinced that delimited continuations are actually modular, so, meh. < 1583426267 68399 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they have so many useful applications, like... < 1583426283 846492 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... < 1583426296 828629 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : So it's not a continuation at all, it's a regular function. => it’s both; one of the points of delimited continuations is that they are functions and so are composable and easy to do something with < 1583426321 585366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Writing papers. < 1583426370 884775 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it would be easier with a picture in mind, I think. I read a page somewhere, with simple examples, and now it seems I can succesfully rebuild the understanding from scratch < 1583426388 884109 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t remember what I’ve read though < 1583426449 141592 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I just associate continuations too closely with continuation-passing style. < 1583426449 585890 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean they're good for writing papers *about*, of course. < 1583426496 4444 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but I'm not convinced that delimited continuations are actually modular, so, meh. => don’t you think that’s because of `shift` taking a handler instead of `reset`? (Because I do) < 1583426501 388911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well CPS is special in that the continuations are never duplicated. < 1583426546 799633 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ? I thought CPS was special because *everything* is a continuation (and everything ends by calling another continuation). < 1583426581 309052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's also special in that way. < 1583426609 608280 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe in practice, you'd also never duplicate a continuation, buuut... maybe there's a counterexample for that too, dunno < 1583426635 443305 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPS is good to implement, yeah. Nonlinear use of continuations seems to be a big problem in implementing analogous things (like alg. effects), as they get too costly AFAIR < 1583426642 678433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't do callCC in CPS. < 1583426714 570304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where a continuation escapes itself and then later on you might continue at that point in execution several times... which is just weird.) < 1583426720 355360 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW is there a computational framework in which CPS translation is trivial (like, you write it in the first place) < 1583426735 16682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPS is a very sand fragment of what continuations can do. < 1583426742 299325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sane < 1583426770 2915 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdcc as always nails the task < 1583426792 279715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sdcc < 1583426794 253486 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdcc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1583426834 105440 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583427035 604586 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I hesitate to even mention this, but there's a strong similarity between CPS and Haskell's "do" notation < 1583427094 199752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1583427104 364153 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean the stuff that the do notation *hides* < 1583427117 940923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo >>= continuation < 1583427121 864199 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, "what Haskell's 'do' notation desugars to", is what I meant < 1583427297 675924 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do { x1 <- action1 ; x2 <- action2 ; mk_action3 x1 x2 } < 1583427302 544511 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :becomes: action1 >>= (\ x1 -> action2 >>= (\ x2 -> mk_action3 x1 x2 )) < 1583427370 573450 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's obviously some relationship between monads and continuations, and I've even heard people whisper about it on occasion, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it in broad daylight < 1583427489 271672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think it's Cont. Cont is for people who can't handle CPS without it being wrapped in a monad. Or something.) < 1583427891 11161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cont is more or less CPS, except that it also allows some of the more insane stuff that leads to coroutines and callCC. And I've seen people say that Cont is really implementing delimited continuations rather than full ones. (Obviously there's no way to go beyond the initial runCont. But inside that it felt more like full continuations to me.) < 1583427982 31048 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd JOIN :#esoteric < 1583427996 471092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t lookup < 1583427997 999873 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b < 1583428000 29916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t M.lookup < 1583428001 673473 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ord k => k -> M.Map k a -> Maybe a < 1583428062 226947 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I find that argument order counter-intuitve) < 1583428187 228462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because it violates the principle that the argument you're less likely to vary should go first, but also because it's the opposite order from M.! and I'd like to use `lookup` as an infix operator. Sigh. < 1583428264 7575 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583428465 430364 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer https://stackoverflow.com/a/3323122 starts with "The first thing to realize about the continuation monad is that, fundamentally, it's not really doing anything at all." and a comment on it rephrases that as "So basically, bind is just CPS-transformed function application?" and I feel those are getting pretty close to the matter. < 1583428532 644336 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still hate and fear monads, btw < 1583428579 691283 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruination, I tell you < 1583428592 366823 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583428632 721116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: https://wiki.haskell.org/wikiupload/1/1d/Monica_monad_falconnl.png < 1583428698 181629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is Monica Monad, and she's a Warm Fuzzy Thing. Just giving a face to SPJ's alternative name for monads :)" (from https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas which is huge) < 1583428942 733349 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Right, "what Haskell's 'do' notation desugars to", is what I meant => yeah, this is an interesting point! I didn’t connect these two before < 1583429345 35383 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Obviously there's no way to go beyond the initial runCont. But inside that it felt more like full continuations to me.) => I think I’ve seen `reset` implemented using precisely `runCont` in there < 1583429401 363935 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Mostly because it violates the principle that the argument you're less likely to vary should go first, but also because it's the opposite order from M.! and I'd like to use `lookup` as an infix operator. Sigh. => yeah I think I was stunned by that too < 1583429453 848613 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did chess on TI83 < 1583429465 384166 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's only 2 kilobytes < 1583429535 212531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: how often does it win you? (if you tested enough times) < 1583429544 194476 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did the openings < 1583429553 752864 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has 6 ply search depth < 1583429566 818219 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I beat it up with king's gambit but it's kinda unfair because the computer is materialistic < 1583429580 116067 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when it realises it should start defending instead of greedy taking my pieces it's already too late < 1583429582 925246 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I hadn’t written any chess at all so it should be cool! < 1583429611 701495 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C code size itself is around 800 bytes < 1583429622 895392 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it works, somehow < 1583429629 12363 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd JOIN :#esoteric < 1583429651 404676 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next I'll try maybe tetris < 1583429667 771799 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did already pong in BASIC, it was a real torture tho < 1583429676 539449 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me around two boring lectures to finish it < 1583429716 842010 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some problems tho < 1583430111 945740 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1583430113 748477 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it crashed in the middle of the game < 1583430165 654440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :resign! < 1583430201 580614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "rage quit" would be more accurate :P. < 1583430215 160209 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :roflol < 1583430225 869161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofoldl* < 1583430316 93157 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some haskell designs there associate with something Hebrew, like that double lambda thing, maybe it resembles an aleph… < 1583430457 916552 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { the [x] = x; the _ = error "the: there are many or no values" } < 1583430459 711090 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : : error: < 1583430459 711133 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : not an expression: ‘let { the [x] = x; the _ = error "the: there are man... < 1583430495 88438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot's not a repl < 1583430498 862271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's @let though < 1583430518 95914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and @undef to undo all the damage @let can do < 1583430569 227469 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> the "a" < 1583430571 559354 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 'a' < 1583430587 386535 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583430596 374787 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> the "ä" < 1583430598 756846 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : '\228' < 1583430606 850936 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> the "ä" < 1583430609 150694 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: the: there are many or no values < 1583430619 155055 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1583430632 843498 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNICODE IS ILL-DEFINED < 1583430684 291005 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that it’s news or that I really think so) < 1583430706 984420 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised. < 1583430714 642095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really think so. :P < 1583430735 746201 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let 2 + 2 = 5 < 1583430737 340873 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1583430738 963009 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s ill-defined but not so ill-defined as to say that for the sake of it < 1583430739 166138 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 + 2 < 1583430741 401391 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1583430741 539259 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ambiguous occurrence ‘+’ < 1583430741 539302 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : It could refer to either ‘Prelude.+’, < 1583430752 542279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 L.+ 2 < 1583430754 689577 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1583430757 521891 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@undef < 1583430757 802024 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undefined. < 1583430764 990887 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :qualified infix operators always look Wrong < 1583430775 341410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got used to them. < 1583430777 698761 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that’s cru… ah, you’ve undone that already < 1583430787 248440 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> :t the > 1583430788 192572 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70172&oldid=70110 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+124) 10/* Datatypes */ < 1583430789 860910 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ < 1583430790 222838 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2 < 1583430792 523349 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1583430799 721239 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 1 < 1583430800 897930 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my poor the < 1583430802 39403 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: :3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function + < 1583430804 703654 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :F < 1583430815 974883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I use M.! quite a bit. < 1583430835 114435 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kood emcening < 1583430884 441232 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let the x | [x] <- x = x in the [] < 1583430886 439204 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: :3:5-24: Non-exhaustive patterns in function the > 1583430890 896749 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* 10moved [[02User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)10]] to [[User:DINAC]]: got a name < 1583430939 706948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell: Oh my god, it's full of syntax! < 1583431096 566634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the disappointing thing about your ä is that I couldn't see the difference in the terminal... somebody canonicalized it properly along the way. < 1583431130 135532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(irssi, screen, xterm... I don't want to figure out which) < 1583431159 199870 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: But the logs gave you away, and confirmed what the error message already suggested. < 1583431233 841581 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah, I didn’t think it would be non-obvious < 1583431252 515677 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it actually canonicalized? or just rendered the same way < 1583431272 433630 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a font has a character for ä then it should use that for the combining-character version too < 1583431294 112605 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can usually tell when the combining sequences are rendered by combining glyphs < 1583431297 121838 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they look like ass < 1583431357 274549 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, frequently with fonts which aren’t up-to-date or whose creators think nobody uses non-accented non-latin < 1583431381 492592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when font is okay but the renderer is not < 1583431438 775093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I pasted it into od -tx1 < 1583431453 383794 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1583431491 231453 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is could an Unicode analogue be simpler? (IDK, but I know many people think it could be, but I’m not sure many of them aren’t overlooking things) < 1583431588 375635 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a hot-button question if ever there was one < 1583431627 858648 :batman_nair!~batman_na@103.228.221.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583431632 801183 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :given all the design requirements I think it couldn't be made that much simpler > 1583431687 9891 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70175 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+8303) 10Better > 1583431717 964846 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DINAC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70176&oldid=70173 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-8459) 10Blanked the page < 1583431723 969189 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example the requirement of round-trip compatibility with all legacy encodings adds a lot of complexity < 1583431726 973207 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least a lot of characters < 1583431740 331350 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why accented characters exist in both combined and combining-sequence versions < 1583431825 921356 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but round trip compatibility is a nice thing to have because then you can design systems (programming languages, databases, etc) where all text is canonically represented as Unicode and you convert to/from legacy encodings at the edges < 1583431955 332175 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I wasn't confused about what you did, I just looked for confirmation. Also, it could've been a zero-width space :) < 1583432194 467196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text $ reverse "äa" < 1583432196 562841 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : äa < 1583432213 438401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text $ reverse "äa" < 1583432215 514884 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : aä < 1583432220 926890 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ^^ :) < 1583432315 859145 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583432408 504434 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nice!! < 1583432445 976329 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, it could've been a zero-width space :) => a good idea too < 1583432515 514592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's why accented characters exist in both combined and combining-sequence versions => oh, I didn’t think about the compatibility reason < 1583432559 440569 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode makes more sense now < 1583432738 806460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://xkcd.com/927/ < 1583432771 48645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably we could get away without emoji. Or having a ton of different math fonts in there. < 1583432780 289245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1583432799 71677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's not that easy. < 1583432818 166845 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah math fonts are a weird thing < 1583432827 705030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Unicode didn't accept emoji, we'd have vendor-specific encodings for those, because clearly there's a desire to have them embedded in text. < 1583432846 167420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn’t say “a mistake” aloud but I’ll be thinking that secretly < 1583432853 366459 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I suspect the same kind of reasoning is behind the math fonts. < 1583432876 808094 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does anyone use them seriously? < 1583432885 721068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otoho, why isn't there a full set of Shogi pieces? < 1583432917 110408 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should propose < 1583432938 786918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess: ♔♕♖♗♘♙♚♛♜♝♞♟ shogi: ⛉⛊☖☗ < 1583432948 759824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit unfair. < 1583433027 995432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also the turned Shogi pieces look different from the normal ones to me. Fun.) < 1583433044 285206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But that's a font issue, of course.) < 1583433102 848221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Otoho", hmm. Some Japanese influence there? :P < 1583433729 350901 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583434293 118618 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583434297 651974 :batman_nair!~batman_na@103.228.221.94 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583434736 185138 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583434950 923947 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd JOIN :#esoteric < 1583436159 936555 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f074:2db3:1866:ebcd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583437077 820408 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For shogi, I think you can just use the kanji, sometimes upsidedown in case of a diagram < 1583437456 757138 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583437560 178153 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583437662 822077 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583437730 599363 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583438078 272914 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583438375 288036 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1583438722 51556 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583439317 470275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-86.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583439502 302756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1194 < 1583439503 673900 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1194: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1583440669 312533 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a distinction between consistency and soundness in logic? I think I missed that one but now I suspect the first is syntactic and the second is semantic < 1583440795 336674 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be on wikipedia. < 1583440848 954471 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, seems it’s more complicated: a set of formulas is or isn’t consistent, but soundness is a property of a particular logic. Hm I think there still were other uses of these words < 1583440854 412031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: fair < 1583440924 700814 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :The usual distinction is soundness vs completeness. < 1583440952 785723 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consistency is of course also an issue but most systems you'll encounter are consistent. < 1583440978 24019 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're interested in para-consistent logics, the subject doesn't come up a lot. > 1583441409 81613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70177&oldid=70174 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-24) 10Blanked the page < 1583441514 138990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I think it clarified for me. Consistency of a set Γ is “not (Γ ⊦ ⊥)” and consistency of a logic is the consistency of ∅; and there is no “soundness of Γ” as it’s just not obvious how and for what reason would one define that > 1583442123 981824 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70178&oldid=70148 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-12) 10 > 1583442460 984391 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70179&oldid=70175 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* Subpages */ < 1583443023 45200 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't seem right to me but it's a long time ago for me too. < 1583443060 730854 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhm, it should be possible for classical logics to state false theorems.. I guess. < 1583443089 369005 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., 3=2 is simply false. That doesn't make a logic inconsistent. < 1583443094 846289 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1583443166 924891 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: it's okay; {3=2} is an inconsistent set of statements; it doesn't make the logic itself inconsistent < 1583444573 32740 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583444764 738385 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. So the question is what Γ denoted in that statement. < 1583444782 426768 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :But okay, too long ago. I refer to wikipedia. < 1583444856 3954 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583445378 855705 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1583446176 903647 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC/STDLIB14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70180 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1821) 10Created page with "DINAC '''STDLIB''' is a library of functions you can use in your code. They are grouped together for ease of access, and from there the individual functions are arranged alpha..." > 1583446194 375345 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC/STDLIB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70181&oldid=70180 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10 > 1583446229 651790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70182&oldid=70179 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+45) 10/* Comments */ < 1583447234 968350 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583447373 537890 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583447399 319344 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583447890 489310 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583448338 756045 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583448786 418788 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583448864 120980 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583450594 804454 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1583451097 494059 :WillGibson!~ManaroDen@196.196.193.230 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583451376 544441 :WillGibson!~ManaroDen@196.196.193.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloooooo < 1583451703 614238 :WillGibson!~ManaroDen@196.196.193.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone in saudi < 1583451900 54401 :WillGibson!~ManaroDen@196.196.193.230 PART :#esoteric