< 1583539294 856320 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583539538 856633 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583539735 924902 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia mentions some things they try to do to reduce draws (especially short draws). < 1583539743 215497 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in chess) < 1583540527 212495 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something I thought of is to use "goulash rules" after a drawn game. This is similar to what FIDE suggested, although in addition to faster time controls, draws by agreement and repetition and 50 moves are disallowed in the goulash game with my idea, and also a few moves (but not the first few moves; rather, moves coming much later) are decided at random, and if it is still a draw, the draw stands. < 1583540717 814758 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I do not believe draws should be eliminated entirely, just to be reduced a bit.) > 1583543361 724871 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mgaudet9 5* 10New user account < 1583544161 287054 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d03f:10c1:740a:6072 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583544471 326624 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d03f:10c1:740a:6072 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1583544894 905843 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583545994 903610 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583546450 866574 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583546565 769986 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583547040 760170 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583547075 768293 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583547794 530274 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :have there been any esolangs or programming languages based on the idea of L-systems? where your "instruction stream" is generated according to a string rewriting system? < 1583548122 284955 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:34e5:60ad:f06d:acc2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583548423 276007 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:34e5:60ad:f06d:acc2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1583548842 201526 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; maybe. I don't really remember, either. < 1583550050 557802 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583550605 755662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1583550978 683917 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70193&oldid=69582 5* 03A 5* (-1392) 10Replaced content with "## CalcStroke It's a calculator based on what you press to your calculator. ## (n+8)/10
 +8=/10 
## Digital root formula
 
" > 1583551046 55262 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70194&oldid=70121 5* 03FortyTwo 5* (+543) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ < 1583551052 755503 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1583551204 410661 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70195&oldid=70193 5* 03A 5* (+336) 10 > 1583551318 707152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70196&oldid=69702 5* 03A 5* (-13161) 10Replaced content with "## CalcStroke It's a calculator based on what you press to your calculator. In CalcStroke the operator precedence applies. (The language is based on my experience of golfi..." > 1583552271 24856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70197&oldid=70196 5* 03A 5* (+366) 10 > 1583552674 378390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70198&oldid=70197 5* 03A 5* (+457) 10 > 1583552940 105938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70199&oldid=70198 5* 03A 5* (+356) 10/* Instruction list */ > 1583553335 41019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70200&oldid=70199 5* 03A 5* (+341) 10/* Instruction list */ > 1583553505 634822 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70201&oldid=70200 5* 03A 5* (+152) 10 < 1583557716 762307 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583558133 418014 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583558937 383021 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583559209 401480 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583559497 555576 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583567283 212758 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583567413 189071 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583567413 811277 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583568719 873512 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583568743 32123 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:75d6:cdc0:2a8c:6f84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583568963 792956 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1583572646 825490 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583573090 807476 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583576358 852777 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583576383 836685 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583578618 760578 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey whats new < 1583578817 699114 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in < 1583578996 699136 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583582318 528667 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583583798 874884 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583585725 643252 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep > 1583587491 219662 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70202&oldid=70160 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+55) 10/* Loop while input = */ < 1583588087 853791 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583588890 136142 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70203&oldid=70202 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+57) 10/* Random of 4 inputs */ < 1583589056 653654 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal > 1583590960 587462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70204&oldid=70203 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+103) 10/* Commands */ < 1583592192 715863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583592208 491063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my attempt at explaining the MTG busy beaver thing: < 1583592218 571413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the deck is designed so that it has two possible modes to be played in < 1583592258 610191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one mode allows the player to choose one of a finite (but very large) number of strategies, this produces an output which is a (deterministic) Waterfall Model program < 1583592289 470782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of waterclocks that can be used is bounded at 124; the size of the zeroing triggers is not inherently bounded, but it has a maximum because there are only finitely many strategies available < 1583592316 719952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other mode deterministically simulates the Waterfall Model program to completion; if it is not a terminating program, the game immediately ends in a draw < 1583592345 198312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just have these two modes and nothing else, the largest possible output you can get is thus a busy beaver function (although not a cleanly defined one) < 1583592372 609002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, what the players involved are looking to do is to create a deck that can be switched between these modes finitely many times < 1583592401 354754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, first a player chooses, by their strategy, one of the possible Waterfall Model programs < 1583592412 4202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, that program is simulated, and (if it halts) produces an output < 1583592441 27219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, we go back to the first mode again, and use the output of that program as a bound on the size of the zeroing triggers of a second Waterfall Model program < 1583592494 222060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we still have finitely many options here, but the number of options is now bounded by a busy beaver number that we calculated earlier < 1583592499 530694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat finitely many times < 1583592522 996894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the maximum possible final result is an iterated busy beaver number; however, due to busy beavers being uncomputable, it's not known what path you would have to take to reach that result < 1583592785 782046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you really have a deck of Magic cards that can build Waterclock simulations but nothing slightly better? < 1583592847 309639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wait, what busy beavers? < 1583592860 507591 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the zeroing triggers aren't bounded, then can't you just choose an arbitrarily large number? < 1583593987 705971 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, is the lifetime warranty in the base price for your immortality serum, or do you charge extra? < 1583593987 922073 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: isn't that roughly how your average server app works? just out of memory, then i wont be using motif as a template < 1583594234 414567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the way it works is that the deck generates large numbers some resource (e.g. mana) using a more traditional non-infinite combo, then that resources bounds the zeroing triggers by limiting how much time you have to set them up < 1583594303 977491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the key idea is to create a deck that can construct a Waterclock simulation, but has no instant speed effects that can be used to interfere with the simulation while it's running, and no way to create a gamestate where trigger stacking order is relevant < 1583594303 977563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last part seems to be the hard part < 1583594303 977580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583594434 576573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583594480 884861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not so much about "nothing slightly better" as "the only loops that aren't clearly bounded have no way to produce output if they're infinite, and no way to manually interrupt them" < 1583594481 847581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: shouldn't the setup also include the initial values of the counters? < 1583594508 534882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, then my mental model of TWM isn't right. < 1583594517 509719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :counters -> clocks < 1583594533 516113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh, yes < 1583594566 89972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out that that's mostly irrelevant because you can use a zeroing trigger to set the initial values < 1583594583 847817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even when restrictions on the initial values exist, they typically turn out not to matter < 1583594623 167750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1583594671 298735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I thought the way to go about this was to work with a fixed TWM program that implements a universal machine. But maybe not. < 1583594701 645218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the idea is, as long as we know that at least one universal machine exists within our given bounds < 1583594703 893455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, upon reflection, probably not, because then encoding 124 triggers in the deck itself becomes infeasible.) < 1583594708 370747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we know that we have some sort of busy beaver being calculated < 1583594731 713722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is /either/ a busy beaver for the universal machine in question, /or/ a busy beaver for some other TWM program that fits witihin the bounds in question < 1583594746 301531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way, it's a finite number by the definition of busy beavers, and it's bounded from below by the busy beaver for our particular UTM < 1583594748 223005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. > 1583595053 808797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70205&oldid=70194 5* 03Ais523 5* (+936) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ the alternate version is not obviously either TC or non-TC < 1583595493 846072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be really crazy is if you could make a deck that not only can't make infinite loops, but where the computation (say the waterfall matrix values) are limited by some resource in the deck itself, like it can use numbers up to 2**200 if you have 200 spare Islands in the deck. deck size is limited to something between 100 and 5000 cards by the rule that you have to be able shuffle your deck < 1583595499 853048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :without assistance. the number of players might not be limited, but I don't think there are tournament games with more than 8 players or more than 8 decks. < 1583597231 113578 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well we encountered a problem with our setup that currently makes iterating very difficult, but otherwise yes < 1583597308 646646 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The deck size is limited to 60, and we can use numbers up to around 10^^^^55 < 1583597325 233677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what limits deck size to 60? < 1583597350 324378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: arbitrariness < 1583597364 895760 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rules, otherwise we could have a deck of an arbitrary number of relentless rats < 1583597380 900080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais's deck is limited to 60 so that it can be more consistent in realistic games < 1583597411 170162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: no, not an arbitrary number. like I said above, there's a limit in the rules. It's just higher than 60 cards. < 1583597462 730577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: MTGBusyBeaver's aiming for an entry in a competition that has specific rules, one of which is a maximum deck size of 60 < 1583597464 478235 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :his TM is actually trying to be SB only, so he can wish for the whole thing from a normal deck < 1583597467 329363 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Future M:tG players will be bred to have extra large hands. ) < 1583597516 437497 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shuffling limit is a soft limit, and hard to properly bound. < 1583597566 150658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "SB"? < 1583597566 689494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1583597570 221028 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get people coming along saying "oh but i can shuffle 5001 cards" < 1583597595 239465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those rules don't include DMM's special rule about infinite loop, because nobody knows how that would apply to setting up a simulation like this? < 1583597610 93966 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583597611 186121 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SB=Sideboard < 1583597613 388276 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sideboard < 1583597638 793193 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 15 extra cards you can bring that dont get shuffled into your main deck for game one < 1583597644 665611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, those of us with large hands prefer the Rubik's cube < 1583597666 49774 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add/exchange them with the main deck or fetch them with cards like cunning wish < 1583597682 913466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I have an 8x8x8 one which I wish I had larger hands for. The other sizes I have are just fine :) < 1583597805 994879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also no because, outside of crazy exercises like this, you usually want your deck to be as small as the rules allow or close to it < 1583597808 522720 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: So, to put numbers to that, (8.2cm)^3 is uncomfortably big. (6.7cm)^3 (that's my 6x6x6 one) is fine. < 1583597822 691708 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 60 cards for most constructed format, 100 cards for a few other constructed formats < 1583597839 252312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1583598008 770741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, 10^^^^55? that's rather big. and you hope to fit a universal computer within the same deck as the combo that does that? < 1583598022 521798 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1583598059 707466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1583598081 128645 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^^^^55 is a lot smaller than our other strategies, but the largest that looks to be compatible with the (Very restrictive) TM setup < 1583598093 642527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can use all 60 cards you can do things like compute the Ackermann function < 1583598162 653766 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, we have had Ackermann beating decks in standard for 3 years in a row now. < 1583598265 330382 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vintage could already get quite beyond that, requiring the "fast growing hierarchy" notation < 1583598285 166330 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but BB functions are even better than that < 1583598313 500470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: and you're allowed to customize the deck of only one player for this, right? multiple players lets you separate different mechanisms with less risk of interactions much more easily. < 1583598332 978189 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes our opponent's deck is 60 wastes < 1583598336 852712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm thinking not really about the number of cards here, but the interactions between the two machines < 1583598370 261726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the basic trick is that the whole deck is sorcery speed apart from the triggers that build the waterfall < 1583598411 55698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the waterfall macnine program would execute without resolving? < 1583598419 225512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'll have to reread the older logs about this later < 1583598423 511527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just too busy during the week < 1583598463 434719 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it executes to completion without (meaningful) choices by either player < 1583598492 233017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except inasmuch as Arcbond is involved, which always struck me as a potential weak point < 1583598520 854431 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1583598536 374432 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we choose to put arc bond on? < 1583598601 571105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trigger stacking < 1583598670 194410 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, we did run into a propblem there, but we managed to find a way to force all of the bishop of wings on the opponent's side < 1583598694 186874 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is why we arent taking about iterating BB(BB(BB...)))) right now) < 1583598754 888205 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way triggers are forced to get stacked in APNAP order and arcbond is our trigger < 1583598779 446178 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has to go below all of their death triggers < 1583598891 842395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, neat < 1583598892 298850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the same solution I used in my sideboard turing machine < 1583598915 905601 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583598927 928175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but /forcing/ it, rather than making it an option, is pretty impressive < 1583598990 330087 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Client Quit < 1583599008 923315 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we bounce/replay/copy Dowsing dagger to give them a bunch of plants < 1583599034 837831 :kspalaiologos!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583599045 436580 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then Mirrorweave them to Dralnu's crusades and Bishop of Wings < 1583599069 802364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :might there be a way to set up a nondeterministic loop using the original Bishop of Wings on your own side? < 1583599099 239390 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in order to do damage to kick the machine off, we need to sacrifice our bishop < 1583599135 586268 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally via Goblin grenade and no other creatures < 1583599138 402570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it doesn't have to be the same machine < 1583599152 794656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if that's the only way to set off /any/ potentially infinite loop… < 1583599194 899169 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, its fortunate that opalescence does not grant a creature type < 1583599275 96761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea is that the deck cannot play any more than 1 creature that has a creature type (Bishop of Wings) on its own side < 1583599278 729218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can play arbitrarily many on its opponent's side < 1583599290 840523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any way to start a loop requires a sacrifice of a creature with a creature type < 1583599358 323734 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have gotten a bit beyond that as bishop of wings only trigges for things on its controller's side < 1583599403 230168 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not arbitrarily many, only 10^^^^55 or so. < 1583599431 882585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1583599451 234250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, optimising the number /inside/ the BB(…) hadn't really crossed my mind < 1583599474 968684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the BB function is so much larger than anything you can describe in a reasonable number of charactesr < 1583599486 320257 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is much much less important < 1583599509 235052 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :than actually getting BB numbers < 1583599581 174897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I saw a suggestion that maybe limiting this thing to 12 waterclocks would help < 1583599583 560642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that still the case? because I've wanted to make a "small" TCness construction for The Waterfall Model for a while < 1583599592 438535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if that number would be helpful, it gives me a target < 1583599656 405093 :MDead!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583599772 868277 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could probably go even a bit higher than that if we need to, but yes 12 is the limit of number of copies of a single enchantment without shenanigans, (4xoriginal, 4x copy enchantment, 4x Mirrormade) < 1583599774 770816 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583599781 828726 :MDead!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net NICK :MDude < 1583599912 462721 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really 13 as the halting clock does not need a dralnu's crusade < 1583599997 867907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I need to go, but I'll keep thinking about this < 1583600000 46892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1583600011 862256 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also helpful would be proving whether the "growing" variant is TC < 1583600098 675640 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it is not, but my initial attempts at proving that have been flawed. < 1583601791 634039 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583602865 958956 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583602953 27913 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583603055 867650 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1583603884 359211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70206&oldid=70164 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+23) 10 > 1583604107 941216 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70207&oldid=70206 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+17) 10 < 1583604231 207754 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583604266 561757 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1583604379 599747 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70208&oldid=70207 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+96) 10 < 1583604773 12244 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLite documentation mentions four kind of "application file formats", being fully custom, pile of files, wrapped pile of files, and SQLite. But Microsoft Office documents are actually a wrapped pile of files (although using a container format which isn't used much elsewhere, although 7-Zip can open it). There may be other formats nested, too. < 1583604793 123726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then, there is stuff such as JSON, XML, etc < 1583605209 89475 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583607707 836930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, Microsoft Office uses zip as the container format < 1583607761 461395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the contents are mostly XML files, except it stores images in ordinary formats like jpeg < 1583607895 449650 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the new version does; the old version uses a different container format, and the contents are a custom format. < 1583608061 157937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the old file formats are custom and optimized for MS Office's internals < 1583608068 265467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for slow computers < 1583608232 844635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Let's crash and pretend the resulting core dump is a file format. ) < 1583608409 759943 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( in addition to unexec, emacs also allows you to save files as "plain text" ) < 1583608980 566975 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583609456 897636 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1583609473 291524 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm, just a quick visit to express my gratitude to the esolanguagers and esolinguists that build esolang.org , I was a good source of inspiratio < 1583609497 71603 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a good source of inspiration < 1583609533 86167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583610545 832304 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583610665 213756 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583610666 106975 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583610823 72978 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome sombrero < 1583610825 894597 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​02sombrero: 06Welcome 13to 04the 07international 08hub 09for 02esoteric 06programming 13language 04design 07and 08deployment! 09For 02more 06information, 13check 04out 07our 08wiki: 09. 02(For 06the 13other 04kind 07of 08esoterica, 09try 02#esoteric 06on 13EFnet 04or 07DALnet.) < 1583611024 949315 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, besides help with eso-inspiration, I was trying to locate ternary material, and indeed there was an esolang called "TrybblePusher". https://vixra.org/abs/2002.0570 (specifically for the last section ) < 1583611034 687159 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1583612353 297181 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1583612368 632184 :sombrero!98ac8af1@152.172.138.241 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583612765 146087 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583614726 633255 :kspalaiologos!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1583615696 50814 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in < 1583615705 189906 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric > 1583616016 234486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70209&oldid=70208 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (-1) 10 < 1583620346 874499 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583622483 700697 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583622541 611130 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583623143 553494 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583623850 359111 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583624191 277884 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1583624353 45275 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds