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00:08:55 <zzo38> Wikipedia mentions some things they try to do to reduce draws (especially short draws).
00:09:03 <zzo38> (in chess)
00:22:07 <zzo38> Something I thought of is to use "goulash rules" after a drawn game. This is similar to what FIDE suggested, although in addition to faster time controls, draws by agreement and repetition and 50 moves are disallowed in the goulash game with my idea, and also a few moves (but not the first few moves; rather, moves coming much later) are decided at random, and if it is still a draw, the draw stands.
00:25:17 <zzo38> (I do not believe draws should be eliminated entirely, just to be reduced a bit.)
01:09:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mgaudet9 * New user account
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02:23:14 <imode> have there been any esolangs or programming languages based on the idea of L-systems? where your "instruction stream" is generated according to a string rewriting system?
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02:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know; maybe. I don't really remember, either.
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03:16:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70193&oldid=69582 * A * (-1392) Replaced content with "## CalcStroke It's a calculator based on what you press to your calculator. ## (n+8)/10 <pre> +8=/10 </pre> ## Digital root formula <pre> </pre>"
03:17:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70194&oldid=70121 * FortyTwo * (+543) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */
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03:37:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70197&oldid=70196 * A * (+366)
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10:56:58 <rain1> hey whats new
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13:24:51 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70202&oldid=70160 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) /* Loop while input = */
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14:43:28 <ais523> my attempt at explaining the MTG busy beaver thing:
14:43:38 <ais523> the deck is designed so that it has two possible modes to be played in
14:44:18 <ais523> one mode allows the player to choose one of a finite (but very large) number of strategies, this produces an output which is a (deterministic) Waterfall Model program
14:44:49 <ais523> the number of waterclocks that can be used is bounded at 124; the size of the zeroing triggers is not inherently bounded, but it has a maximum because there are only finitely many strategies available
14:45:16 <ais523> the other mode deterministically simulates the Waterfall Model program to completion; if it is not a terminating program, the game immediately ends in a draw
14:45:45 <ais523> if you just have these two modes and nothing else, the largest possible output you can get is thus a busy beaver function (although not a cleanly defined one)
14:46:12 <ais523> now, what the players involved are looking to do is to create a deck that can be switched between these modes finitely many times
14:46:41 <ais523> so, first a player chooses, by their strategy, one of the possible Waterfall Model programs
14:46:52 <ais523> then, that program is simulated, and (if it halts) produces an output
14:47:21 <ais523> now, we go back to the first mode again, and use the output of that program as a bound on the size of the zeroing triggers of a second Waterfall Model program
14:48:14 <ais523> so we still have finitely many options here, but the number of options is now bounded by a busy beaver number that we calculated earlier
14:48:19 <ais523> repeat finitely many times
14:48:42 <ais523> the maximum possible final result is an iterated busy beaver number; however, due to busy beavers being uncomputable, it's not known what path you would have to take to reach that result
14:53:05 <b_jonas> can you really have a deck of Magic cards that can build Waterclock simulations but nothing slightly better?
14:54:07 <b_jonas> also, wait, what busy beavers?
14:54:20 <b_jonas> if the zeroing triggers aren't bounded, then can't you just choose an arbitrarily large number?
15:13:07 <b_jonas> fungot, is the lifetime warranty in the base price for your immortality serum, or do you charge extra?
15:13:07 <fungot> b_jonas: isn't that roughly how your average server app works? just out of memory, then i wont be using motif as a template
15:17:14 <ais523> b_jonas: the way it works is that the deck generates large numbers some resource (e.g. mana) using a more traditional non-infinite combo, then that resources bounds the zeroing triggers by limiting how much time you have to set them up
15:18:23 <ais523> also, the key idea is to create a deck that can construct a Waterclock simulation, but has no instant speed effects that can be used to interfere with the simulation while it's running, and no way to create a gamestate where trigger stacking order is relevant
15:18:23 <ais523> that last part seems to be the hard part
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15:21:20 <ais523> so it's not so much about "nothing slightly better" as "the only loops that aren't clearly bounded have no way to produce output if they're infinite, and no way to manually interrupt them"
15:21:21 <int-e> ais523: shouldn't the setup also include the initial values of the counters?
15:21:48 <int-e> If not, then my mental model of TWM isn't right.
15:21:57 <int-e> counters -> clocks
15:22:13 <ais523> int-e: oh, yes
15:22:46 <ais523> but it turns out that that's mostly irrelevant because you can use a zeroing trigger to set the initial values
15:23:03 <ais523> so even when restrictions on the initial values exist, they typically turn out not to matter
15:23:43 <int-e> Ah.
15:24:31 <int-e> Well, I thought the way to go about this was to work with a fixed TWM program that implements a universal machine. But maybe not.
15:25:01 <ais523> I think the idea is, as long as we know that at least one universal machine exists within our given bounds
15:25:03 <int-e> (And, upon reflection, probably not, because then encoding 124 triggers in the deck itself becomes infeasible.)
15:25:08 <ais523> then we know that we have some sort of busy beaver being calculated
15:25:31 <ais523> which is /either/ a busy beaver for the universal machine in question, /or/ a busy beaver for some other TWM program that fits witihin the bounds in question
15:25:46 <ais523> either way, it's a finite number by the definition of busy beavers, and it's bounded from below by the busy beaver for our particular UTM
15:25:48 <int-e> Yeah.
15:30:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70205&oldid=70194 * Ais523 * (+936) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ the alternate version is not obviously either TC or non-TC
15:38:13 <b_jonas> what would be really crazy is if you could make a deck that not only can't make infinite loops, but where the computation (say the waterfall matrix values) are limited by some resource in the deck itself, like it can use numbers up to 2**200 if you have 200 spare Islands in the deck. deck size is limited to something between 100 and 5000 cards by the rule that you have to be able shuffle your deck
15:38:19 <b_jonas> without assistance. the number of players might not be limited, but I don't think there are tournament games with more than 8 players or more than 8 decks.
16:07:11 <MTGBusyBeaver> Well we encountered a problem with our setup that currently makes iterating very difficult, but otherwise yes
16:08:28 <MTGBusyBeaver> The deck size is limited to 60, and we can use numbers up to around 10^^^^55
16:08:45 <b_jonas> what limits deck size to 60?
16:09:10 <int-e> b_jonas: arbitrariness
16:09:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> the rules, otherwise we could have a deck of an arbitrary number of relentless rats
16:09:40 <b_jonas> ais's deck is limited to 60 so that it can be more consistent in realistic games
16:10:11 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: no, not an arbitrary number. like I said above, there's a limit in the rules. It's just higher than 60 cards.
16:11:02 <ais523> b_jonas: MTGBusyBeaver's aiming for an entry in a competition that has specific rules, one of which is a maximum deck size of 60
16:11:04 <MTGBusyBeaver> his TM is actually trying to be SB only, so he can wish for the whole thing from a normal deck
16:11:07 <int-e> . o O ( Future M:tG players will be bred to have extra large hands. )
16:11:56 <MTGBusyBeaver> the shuffling limit is a soft limit, and hard to properly bound.
16:12:46 <int-e> What's "SB"?
16:12:46 <b_jonas> I see
16:12:50 <MTGBusyBeaver> you'll get people coming along saying "oh but i can shuffle 5001 cards"
16:13:15 <b_jonas> but those rules don't include DMM's special rule about infinite loop, because nobody knows how that would apply to setting up a simulation like this?
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16:13:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> SB=Sideboard
16:13:33 <b_jonas> int-e: sideboard
16:13:58 <MTGBusyBeaver> which is 15 extra cards you can bring that dont get shuffled into your main deck for game one
16:14:04 <b_jonas> int-e: no, those of us with large hands prefer the Rubik's cube
16:14:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> you can add/exchange them with the main deck or fetch them with cards like cunning wish
16:14:42 <int-e> b_jonas: I have an 8x8x8 one which I wish I had larger hands for. The other sizes I have are just fine :)
16:16:45 <b_jonas> int-e: also no because, outside of crazy exercises like this, you usually want your deck to be as small as the rules allow or close to it
16:16:48 <int-e> b_jonas: So, to put numbers to that, (8.2cm)^3 is uncomfortably big. (6.7cm)^3 (that's my 6x6x6 one) is fine.
16:17:02 <b_jonas> which is 60 cards for most constructed format, 100 cards for a few other constructed formats
16:17:19 <b_jonas> I see
16:20:08 <b_jonas> wait, 10^^^^55? that's rather big. and you hope to fit a universal computer within the same deck as the combo that does that?
16:20:22 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes
16:20:59 <b_jonas> wow
16:21:21 <MTGBusyBeaver> 10^^^^55 is a lot smaller than our other strategies, but the largest that looks to be compatible with the (Very restrictive) TM setup
16:21:33 <ais523> if you can use all 60 cards you can do things like compute the Ackermann function
16:22:42 <MTGBusyBeaver> Yeah, we have had Ackermann beating decks in standard for 3 years in a row now.
16:24:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> and vintage could already get quite beyond that, requiring the "fast growing hierarchy" notation
16:24:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> but BB functions are even better than that
16:25:13 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: and you're allowed to customize the deck of only one player for this, right? multiple players lets you separate different mechanisms with less risk of interactions much more easily.
16:25:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes our opponent's deck is 60 wastes
16:25:36 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm thinking not really about the number of cards here, but the interactions between the two machines
16:26:10 <ais523> b_jonas: the basic trick is that the whole deck is sorcery speed apart from the triggers that build the waterfall
16:26:51 <b_jonas> and the waterfall macnine program would execute without resolving?
16:26:59 <b_jonas> also I'll have to reread the older logs about this later
16:27:03 <b_jonas> I was just too busy during the week
16:27:43 <MTGBusyBeaver> it executes to completion without (meaningful) choices by either player
16:28:12 <ais523> except inasmuch as Arcbond is involved, which always struck me as a potential weak point
16:28:40 <MTGBusyBeaver> what do you mean?
16:28:56 <MTGBusyBeaver> what we choose to put arc bond on?
16:30:01 <ais523> trigger stacking
16:31:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> Yeah, we did run into a propblem there, but we managed to find a way to force all of the bishop of wings on the opponent's side
16:31:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> (this is why we arent taking about iterating BB(BB(BB...)))) right now)
16:32:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> that way triggers are forced to get stacked in APNAP order and arcbond is our trigger
16:32:59 <MTGBusyBeaver> so it has to go below all of their death triggers
16:34:51 <ais523> oh, neat
16:34:52 <ais523> that's the same solution I used in my sideboard turing machine
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16:35:27 <ais523> but /forcing/ it, rather than making it an option, is pretty impressive
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16:36:48 <MTGBusyBeaver> we bounce/replay/copy Dowsing dagger to give them a bunch of plants
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16:37:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> then Mirrorweave them to Dralnu's crusades and Bishop of Wings
16:37:49 <ais523> might there be a way to set up a nondeterministic loop using the original Bishop of Wings on your own side?
16:38:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> but in order to do damage to kick the machine off, we need to sacrifice our bishop
16:38:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> originally via Goblin grenade and no other creatures
16:38:58 <ais523> well, it doesn't have to be the same machine
16:39:12 <ais523> I guess if that's the only way to set off /any/ potentially infinite loop…
16:39:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, its fortunate that opalescence does not grant a creature type
16:41:15 <ais523> so the idea is that the deck cannot play any more than 1 creature that has a creature type (Bishop of Wings) on its own side
16:41:18 <ais523> but can play arbitrarily many on its opponent's side
16:41:30 <ais523> and any way to start a loop requires a sacrifice of a creature with a creature type
16:42:38 <MTGBusyBeaver> we have gotten a bit beyond that as bishop of wings only trigges for things on its controller's side
16:43:23 <MTGBusyBeaver> and not arbitrarily many, only 10^^^^55 or so.
16:43:51 <ais523> ah right
16:44:11 <ais523> fwiw, optimising the number /inside/ the BB(…) hadn't really crossed my mind
16:44:34 <ais523> because the BB function is so much larger than anything you can describe in a reasonable number of charactesr
16:44:46 <MTGBusyBeaver> it is much much less important
16:45:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> than actually getting BB numbers
16:46:21 <ais523> anyway, I saw a suggestion that maybe limiting this thing to 12 waterclocks would help
16:46:23 <ais523> is that still the case? because I've wanted to make a "small" TCness construction for The Waterfall Model for a while
16:46:32 <ais523> and if that number would be helpful, it gives me a target
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16:49:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> we could probably go even a bit higher than that if we need to, but yes 12 is the limit of number of copies of a single enchantment without shenanigans, (4xoriginal, 4x copy enchantment, 4x Mirrormade)
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16:51:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> really 13 as the halting clock does not need a dralnu's crusade
16:53:17 <ais523> anyway, I need to go, but I'll keep thinking about this
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16:53:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> also helpful would be proving whether the "growing" variant is TC
16:54:58 <MTGBusyBeaver> I suspect it is not, but my initial attempts at proving that have been flawed.
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17:58:04 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70206&oldid=70164 * Hanzlu * (+23)
18:01:47 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70207&oldid=70206 * Hanzlu * (+17)
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18:06:19 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70208&oldid=70207 * Hanzlu * (+96)
18:12:53 <zzo38> SQLite documentation mentions four kind of "application file formats", being fully custom, pile of files, wrapped pile of files, and SQLite. But Microsoft Office documents are actually a wrapped pile of files (although using a container format which isn't used much elsewhere, although 7-Zip can open it). There may be other formats nested, too.
18:13:13 <zzo38> And then, there is stuff such as JSON, XML, etc
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19:01:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, Microsoft Office uses zip as the container format
19:02:41 <b_jonas> and the contents are mostly XML files, except it stores images in ordinary formats like jpeg
19:04:55 <zzo38> Perhaps the new version does; the old version uses a different container format, and the contents are a custom format.
19:07:41 <b_jonas> oh, the old file formats are custom and optimized for MS Office's internals
19:07:48 <b_jonas> and for slow computers
19:10:32 <int-e> . o O ( Let's crash and pretend the resulting core dump is a file format. )
19:13:29 <olsner> . o O ( in addition to unexec, emacs also allows you to save files as "plain text" )
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19:30:56 <sombrero> Hi
19:31:13 <sombrero> mmm, just a quick visit to express my gratitude to the esolanguagers and esolinguists that build esolang.org , I was a good source of inspiratio
19:31:37 <sombrero> It was a good source of inspiration
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19:53:43 <arseniiv> `relcome sombrero
19:53:45 <HackEso> sombrero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:57:04 <sombrero> well, besides help with eso-inspiration, I was trying to locate ternary material, and indeed there was an esolang called "TrybblePusher". https://vixra.org/abs/2002.0570 (specifically for the last section )
19:57:14 <sombrero> ;)
20:19:13 <sombrero> thanks
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21:20:16 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70209&oldid=70208 * Hanzlu * (-1)
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