< 1583801224 468178 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I counted all the ordinals, all of them! < 1583801227 436634 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o < 1583802806 789324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :classy < 1583803183 743958 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many were there < 1583803579 815957 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583804665 518425 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Update on where we are at on the MTG max damage deck implementing The Waterfall Method with ~124 waterclocks to get Busy Beaver numbers < 1583804720 599420 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have managed to allow us to iterate the Busy Beaver function. < 1583804742 170052 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... A Busy Beaver number of times < 1583804854 472200 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions < 1583805006 812135 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X) < 1583805047 272659 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a very busy beaver indeed < 1583805292 275108 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving TWM turing complete with 12 clocks (and a halting clock) improves the X, and possibly opens up other improvements, Even better is proving the "growing" or "flooding" variant of TWM. < 1583807714 342924 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-213.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583808263 296745 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1583808307 481855 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583808874 790889 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583808922 530042 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583809139 520852 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583809163 724728 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583814380 563275 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583814598 102111 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1583817366 642088 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70233&oldid=70232 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10Add the infix counterparts > 1583817547 452622 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70234&oldid=70233 5* 03A 5* (+17051) 10You really need to copy the text here. Because if Pastebin broke down... > 1583819020 633474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70235&oldid=70234 5* 03A 5* (+5797) 10Take a look at my mass-produced table! > 1583819039 543215 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70236&oldid=70235 5* 03A 5* (-176) 10Whoops, left some testing code in. < 1583819944 185192 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1583819987 815890 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07W (A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70237&oldid=69995 5* 03A 5* (+86) 10 < 1583820534 143781 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583823319 84490 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583825283 142939 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583825450 881998 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583826688 789236 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583826748 244169 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583826768 278013 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583827964 443543 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583828070 471272 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583835588 43767 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583836604 213022 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583836695 49550 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583838298 265358 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583838442 303969 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does python not have a command-line option to add directories to the module search path, like perl -I ? < 1583838663 45853 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583838666 36000 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Python programmers love typing the word PYTHONPATH. < 1583838746 775431 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583839032 758606 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583839070 861788 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583840661 709404 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still don't get how those MtG people are managing to iterate the busy beaver function) < 1583840877 1605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I think of it this way: there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers. < 1583840920 67372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It recognizes smaller numbers, too - I think that's unavoidable. < 1583840935 635240 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But BB(BB(100)) is the largest finite number it recognizes. < 1583840984 999620 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they're calculating a set with an upper bound of BB(BB(100))? < 1583841064 646178 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a certain deck, there is a set of possible plays; the largest-damage play in this deck does a damage of BB(BB(100)). They don't *calculate* it. But it is a *possible* play of the deck. < 1583841091 540917 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you were to somehow guess it, you could play it. You wouldn't *know* you guessed it. < 1583841110 949566 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Importantly: any larger guess would not be playable, with this deck. < 1583841138 831681 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I think I understand now < 1583841167 118793 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're making decks with extremely high but finite upper bounds on how much damage they can do < 1583841248 121254 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583841360 18588 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right (and part of that is disallowing a deck if it can deal unbounded damage). < 1583841447 116454 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds > 1583841854 810252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dotsy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70238 5* 03Quadril-Is 5* (+333) 10Quick copy paste from samsung notes < 1583841908 346433 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"100" is just picked out of the air. int-e used 10^100. I think the actual constant is limited by what you can encode in the deck. < 1583841950 828110 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure you couldn't also make a deck iterate BB multiple times, so you could maybe BB(BB(BB(BB(BB(6))))) - you probably don't need a large constant. < 1583842228 170207 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:47 MTGBusyBeaver: so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions < 1583842228 809361 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:50 MTGBusyBeaver: We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X) < 1583842345 683601 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what_ < 1583842351 770185 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1583842424 159418 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have MTGBusyBeaver's word for it < 1583843935 521153 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583844096 714709 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583845029 862642 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583845165 355293 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1583845400 58678 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:02 <+Lisbeth> Sorry N33R I just love seeing your reaction < 1583845404 864078 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaa < 1583845425 876914 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it keeps accidentally copy/pasting < 1583845543 259170 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how many were there => |Ord| many < 1583845572 867044 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The value of BB(1919) is already independent of ZFC < 1583845656 141803 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh I may have answered “two many”, damn < 1583845685 665994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 PRIVMSG #esoteric :might* < 1583845877 444802 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantifiers get really weird here. While it's obviously the case that given any natural number n, we can give a construction of a Turing machine that recognises numbers up to n, when we have no way of explicitly writing down the numeral for n, and instead it's a natural number that is defined by some formula, we immediately run into cases where constructing such a Turing machine is no longer so easy. < 1583845904 695474 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, while you can say "there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers", and in some sense it's obviously true < 1583846041 920874 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something a bit weird about it, because we don't know (and it'll be undecidable for practically any system of mathematics we've devised) which number that is, and it doesn't seem easy to otherwise produce a machine that would have to fit the bill regardless. < 1583846195 501874 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you wanted to write down the precise states of the machine in its entirety, even with an unlimited amount of paper, it would be beyond us and it's not even entirely clear that such a thing is well-defined. :D < 1583846231 767278 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because the values of busy beaver numbers become independent of axiomatic systems so quickly) < 1583846353 437849 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1583847391 562767 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What gets me is, if you were to somehow (miraculously!) guess BB(BB(100)), the NTM would accept it, but you'd never know if the number you guessed was *actually* BB(BB(100)). The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too. How that necessity comes about definitely feels a little weird to me. < 1583847818 725010 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583848377 313524 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, if somehow we could prove in ZFC that a Turing machine with a concrete representation only accepted, for example, BB(1919), then there would additionally be a finite sequence of steps in ZFC explaining the evaluation of that Turing machine on a particular numeral n = S(S(S...(SZ)...) and thus deciding the value of BB(1919). But there is a Turing machine with 1919 states which unless ZFC is < 1583848377 483610 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :inconsistent, ZFC can't prove that it terminates, because the machine searches for contradictions in ZFC. < 1583848669 82094 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the same time, it's fine that ZFC proves that such a Turing machine exists in the sense of proving a sentence of the form (exists x. ...) because it doesn't necessarily tell us what that machine is. < 1583850624 997679 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too" <-- After taking a walk, I think this is not quite right now. But it all makes my head spin. < 1583851104 437387 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can definitely make a turing machine that accepts that number and only that number, if you happen to out-of-band know what that number happens to be < 1583851265 512615 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do you accept this number?" "Yes." "Do you accept any smaller numbers?" "No." "Do you accept any larger numbers?" "Beats me, pal." < 1583851531 817704 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583851633 331565 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry to miss the earlier conversation about how we iterate the BB function < 1583851687 346755 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No worries, I'm satisfied with it now < 1583851845 509772 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without going too deep into the technical details, the TM outputs a resource (life) that we can use to increase the efficiency of our conversion into more/bigger TMs < 1583851884 4793 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :chaining these together lets us get higher order BB functions. < 1583852008 234844 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but don't you run out of kinds of resources? M:tG doesn't offer that many easily usable types, and you need some for internal use by the turing machine, and some for the part before that generates the resource that limits the entries of the waterfall matrix < 1583852054 72138 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you get all sorts of conflicts where the cards of the deck can be used in ways other than you planned? < 1583852167 47727 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the number of resources is why we are at about BB_6 instead of higher. < 1583852212 795593 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TM itself uses creatures and bans many instants < 1583852254 177708 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The setup is extremely limiting with the number of creatures and enchantments we can have total < 1583852269 961026 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(non aura enchantments) < 1583852304 669077 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but BB_6 of a non-small number still sounds hard to attain to me, so I'll have to look up the details later < 1583852373 981086 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TM construction uses 2 creature types per waterclock, so we are limited to 124 waterclock (plenty enough to implement a Universal TM) < 1583852391 373526 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that part doesn't sound too limiting < 1583852429 136081 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I plan on getting this properly written up so that interested parties dont have to comb through the 100+ page forum thread. < 1583852460 826701 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, that's always the plan. at least there's a forum thread and irc logs where I'll be able to see the main ideas < 1583852530 969804 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I did it for beating ghram's number in standard last year < 1583852554 463565 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know yet how you'll get a waterclock from Door of Destinies... no wait, what enchantment was it? < 1583852588 461426 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name rotlung reanimator < 1583852590 690119 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rotlung Reanimator \ 2B \ Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 2/2 \ Whenever Rotlung Reanimator or another Cleric dies, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token. \ ONS-R < 1583852599 796076 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coat of Arms < 1583852605 472287 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name coat of arms < 1583852606 747095 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R < 1583852620 451545 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do understand the Rotlung Reanimator construction, more or less < 1583852628 830215 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Dralnu's crusade < 1583852629 669756 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dralnu's Crusade \ 1BR \ Enchantment \ Goblin creatures get +1/+1. \ All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types. \ PS-R < 1583852639 231898 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are three cards like Rotlung Reanimator, and they are very important for all these constructions < 1583852659 2991 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah we actually use bishop of wings but thats probably not in the DB < 1583852673 983044 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1583852677 16173 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then there's more than three < 1583852677 84297 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583852721 662470 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew of Rotlung Reanimator, Xathrid Necromancer, Hungry Lynx. < 1583852739 770739 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hungry lynx doesnt make tokens, it buffs tokens < 1583852762 907424 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it got replaced by coat of arms < 1583852776 967576 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not be a triggered effect < 1583852777 876064 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter, it still refers two different creature types that you can evolve < 1583852787 929066 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an assymetric manner < 1583852794 478174 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of the limiting factor < 1583852826 21320 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have very few cards that refer two creature types in such a way that we can use it for constructions where one creature type is the trigger and the other is the action and it's repeatable enough to run the program < 1583852836 686981 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so the construction is a bunch of crusades saying all X' are X < 1583852885 633270 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bishops triggering on X dying to make a',b',c's < 1583852905 583218 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and remaking the one X < 1583852917 528499 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you still have a card like Bishop of Wings in, then I'm not too surprised < 1583852930 616199 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed too much when you mentioned the Coat of Arms < 1583852942 300763 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'm still surprised about BB_6 on a large number < 1583852951 145990 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not about having a working universal computer < 1583852969 176410 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just surprised on having a deck with such a large damage limit but no infinite damage loop < 1583852977 521858 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without DMM's additional rules < 1583853001 859752 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there are often unintended infinites that need to get patched out < 1583853132 429886 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know that ais's original attempt to simulate StackFlow failed beacuse of too much freedom on putting triggers onto the stack, and we never found a fix for that, right? < 1583853144 579667 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it scared me when you mentioned trigger stacking order about this construction < 1583853180 68550 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually ais invented The Waterfall Machine instead, and simulated that, so that problem got solved, but still < 1583853203 399666 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why coat of arms is perfect, it doesnt matter what order the tokens get made in < 1583853214 772329 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will all be the same size < 1583853231 877581 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and will all die at the same time < 1583853334 694187 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do need to force only our opponent to have bishops when the TM starts running < 1583853352 683118 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the arcbond trigger is forced to be at the bottom. < 1583853410 835567 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't understand how Coat of Arms is used, or how you're using creature types < 1583853432 846505 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have two creature types per clock? and how do you use them? < 1583853452 628895 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 2 perclock < 1583853504 953808 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have the main creature type and a secondary type for each clock < 1583853566 273943 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dralnu's crusade gets hacked to say that the primary type is also the secondary type < 1583853610 861070 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bishops trigger on the primary type dying and make secondary types for the appropriate clocks and also remake the primary < 1583853721 26729 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coat of arms causes the secondary creatures to buff the primary ones, keeping them at the proper distance from dead, as well as ensuring that any damage that kills the primary will also kill all of the secondaries. < 1583853746 152375 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you only have one creature per primary creature type? < 1583853750 178213 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1583853757 179680 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work < 1583853778 61067 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then only that one creature causes death triggers, but it takes its size from the lots of creatures of the secondary type < 1583853799 311705 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a new idea, I don't think I've seen it in the previous constructions, and it does explain Coat of Arms < 1583853943 655857 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a nice trick < 1583853974 817924 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few cards that have such triggers built-in, I'll have to look at them if they're usable for something: < 1583853985 377238 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, though we'd also like to know/prove if the variant without Dralnu's crusades is TC, there its just one creature type so the death triggers start getting multiplied and compoinding pretty quick < 1583854006 833483 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mark of the Oni; Stenchskipper < 1583854188 893626 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe Ophiomancer but unlikely < 1583854228 17515 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tentatively calling it Flooded Waterfall Machine, because it causes overflow) < 1583854341 48502 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aysen Crusader < 1583854368 779333 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, none of those will work easily because you can't bring them back < 1583854378 320523 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be external like the Coat of Arms < 1583854462 272658 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happen quickly, not waiting until end of turn, (we only get one) < 1583854494 568743 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(did I mention that this is all happening on turn 1?) < 1583854505 949045 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that makes sense < 1583854567 741166 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway g2g be on later. < 1583854572 972679 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583854607 758116 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alex Churchill et all's construction happens over (twice) as many turns as the underlying machine runs, but you can't do that if you want no infinite damage loops in your machine < 1583854614 812841 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/all's/et al/ < 1583856242 906798 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583859527 60820 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583859945 722628 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583860342 513725 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70239&oldid=70191 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+886) 10 < 1583860839 146708 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1583861595 383667 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583861599 505364 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: rebooting < 1583861664 377409 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583861682 121341 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1583863687 955315 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ZFC++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70240&oldid=70168 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+16) 10 < 1583864823 299532 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1583865305 769660 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1583865434 865902 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.235.84 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583866591 786854 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :,[>[-]<[->+<],]>[>+>+<<-]<-[>+<-----]>-->>[-[->>+<]>[<]<]>>[-<<++>>]<<<[->-<]+>[<->[-]][-]+>[-]<<[<.>>-]>[<<-.>>->] <- an interesting thingy in Brainfuck; around 100 byte isEven, requires uint8_t cells and 0 on EOF < 1583866619 750308 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :supports arbitrary length integers < 1583867414 950030 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1583869396 465979 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583869410 213732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583869549 316038 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583869575 769890 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583869890 378089 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583870074 797127 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583870078 948546 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583870977 100033 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1583871023 749902 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583871917 254535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70241&oldid=70239 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1631) 10 < 1583875128 879239 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1583878385 712508 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70242&oldid=70183 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+14) 10+[[Siterip]] > 1583878388 444611 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70243&oldid=70167 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+14) 10+[[Siterip]] < 1583878445 383932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583878476 268232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Siterip14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70244 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+49652) 10+[[Siterip]] < 1583878525 995399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I've finally figured out why you can't create an infinite damage loop with the present construction < 1583878535 254395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's set up so that you can't interrupt a damage loop at instant speed < 1583878546 634963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either the loop ends naturally (e.g. with the opponent dying) in which case it isn't infinite < 1583878566 682132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else, the loop /is/ infinite, but in that case the game ends in a draw before any damage is actually dealt, because it's infinite < 1583878583 975082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the important point is that you can't have any manual control over the amount of damage dealt once the loop is started < 1583878992 154427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this feels unsatisfyingly tautologous, it's "you can't create an infinite loop because you can't create an infinite loop" < 1583879010 750351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it more boils down to "you can't create an arbitrarily large loop because you have no mechanism to specify an arbitrarily large number" < 1583879047 492187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather counterintuitive to the normal idea of "no infinite combos", though; there are infinite combos, which can kill opponents from any amount of life, but you can't overkill via a chosen amount of life so it still fits the definition < 1583879223 695437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't deal an unlimited amount of life and continue the match < 1583879229 839452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :game < 1583879287 304560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like http://anselan.com/tutorial.html < 1583879928 752565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, can the second case, the case when you deal an unlimited amount of damage to the opponent but you do this so fast that he never loses the game, even happen? I don't think such a tight loop is possible, because the opponent would lose at state-based effect speed. < 1583879998 513043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just mean an infinite loop that doesn't deal damage to the opponent? < 1583880051 859562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Arcbond < 1583880052 889517 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcbond \ 2R \ Instant \ Choose target creature. Whenever that creature is dealt damage this turn, it deals that much damage to each other creature and each player. \ FRF-R < 1583880090 180479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the specific example is two copies of Arcbond on creatures with lifelink and indestructible < 1583880102 567181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the loop does damage on every iteration, but the players gain life too, so it never actually exits < 1583880115 331403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be "infinite damage" except that the game rules prevent the loop happening, because it has no way to end < 1583880135 344400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the actual combo doesn't IIRC involve lifelink at the moment, but it has an alternative method to gain the players life) < 1583880213 688050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wtf. why would Wizards think that's a good idea to print, even as a rare? < 1583880235 553383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the players gain life < 1583880239 170349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tricky < 1583880276 427447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :double arcbond is used for the steady decrement in the current busy beaver TWM construction < 1583880279 938513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, the opponent gaining life explains why my reasoning is wrong < 1583880309 14870 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583880312 148009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not surprised about constructions using them. I'm just surprised that they printed that in a standard-legal set. < 1583880392 102325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you mustn't put in these decks are combos that are unlimited and a player can choose how many times they execute it < 1583880414 383584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-64.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if there's any possibility that something from it can be converted to damage to the opponent < 1583880436 551600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1583880974 867830 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583881079 500533 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Client Quit < 1583883555 744488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1583883568 806223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric