< 1583973209 398623 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583973716 764920 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1583975027 963168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70254&oldid=70217 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+17) 10Undo revision 70217 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (This is the reference interpreter, if you think it doesn't work you're thinking something wrong.) < 1583975172 912189 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless some recent C standard broke it, or something. < 1583975694 364204 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did they break this time? < 1583975848 803523 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583975962 805727 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583976207 781597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing. < 1583976292 475520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope this is correct: We have an unsinged int x, and a comparison x == -1. The -1 is of type int and gets promoted to unsigned int (turning into 0xFFFFFFFF on 32 bit platforms) before the comparison is made. < 1583976321 813532 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1583976325 940145 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shold probably give that a U suffix. But who cares. < 1583976330 900539 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*should < 1583976348 959281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll own the "unsinged" though. < 1583976359 68330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp unsigned < 1583976362 32684 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1583976364 470213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp unsinged < 1583976367 915566 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1583976371 835005 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no NICK :oerjan_ < 1583976373 774002 :oerjan_!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no NICK :oerjan < 1583976404 268697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION torches int-e's unsinged int < 1583976412 562151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1583976481 206157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it's officially demoted to singed now. < 1583976507 817729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it had been a fireball it might have been an explicit cast. < 1583976528 950940 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure torches can be interpreted in terms of the C standard. < 1583976705 713768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1583977095 265075 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"32 bit platform" -- includes most 64 bit platforms as well, I should check the right terminology here. Surely there's something shorter than "having a 32 bit int type". < 1583977167 913806 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this another incArnation? < 1583977174 795978 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583977229 275045 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583977244 766871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notices the same habit of making virtually all edits "minor". < 1583977408 409882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask ais523 < 1583977621 94774 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm probably wrong. They're actually revisiting old pages and improving them. < 1583977653 142763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still find this pattern odd :) > 1583977705 142746 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70255&oldid=70201 5* 03A 5* (+108) 10 < 1583980336 7469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-206.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583980389 627918 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :per an earlier convo, decided to look into Orca < 1583980394 83126 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a fun esolang < 1583980399 289731 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to get it to play a note rn < 1583980893 156200 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :already like it a lot. Still haven't got a value to play, but it's fun < 1583981006 458292 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like having a large screen gives me a unfair advantage in programming with it < 1583981485 847771 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1583981845 214370 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1583984892 786926 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583985010 85366 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583988843 558063 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583988957 376612 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583991300 67038 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moonytheboot < 1583991313 980584 :moonytheboot!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony < 1583997014 686800 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583997554 866912 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583998143 983481 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583998543 676731 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583998708 262855 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583999197 86148 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1583999387 375592 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583999843 717419 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583999867 937513 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583999994 428346 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a program with the comment: "This can't, but will, happen." < 1584000155 564995 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1584000195 172669 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is an "unfair advantage in programming"? < 1584000814 671237 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584000837 882664 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net NICK :Guest47121 < 1584001032 727160 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1584001083 694921 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584001220 275987 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1584001677 476632 :Guest47121!~Phantom@cpc108439-cowc8-2-0-cust785.14-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1584003318 728780 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70256&oldid=60028 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-10) 10/* Hello Worlds */ < 1584005088 756904 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1584005556 617005 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1584006537 178118 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Siterip14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70257 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1145) 10syntax validity < 1584007349 25848 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too" <-- I think I see the problem with this now. s/The NTM/Any *constructible* NTM/ < 1584007416 250258 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can posit an NTM that accepts only BB(BB(100)), and such an NTM exists in principle, much like how BB(BB(100)) itself exists in principle. But you can't construct (compute) it. < 1584007727 790356 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584008127 160324 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the OOTS comic, word of god at "https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-2020-34406298" says that Greg was *also* stuck in Durkon's body without being able to control it until Malack was destroyed. < 1584009361 506689 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Greg was honest and truthful in "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html" that Belkar shouldn't incriminate him for how Malack's thrall drunk Belkar's blood; and Belkar's argument in "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html" was invalid. < 1584009375 906190 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that part of Belkar's argument. the rest still stands. < 1584010622 173946 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584014583 675602 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584016895 675623 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584018555 274500 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584018914 874988 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584020298 187002 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1584020323 678293 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584020420 186782 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1584020476 143410 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584021455 388275 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1584021550 875917 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1584021776 754539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric > 1584022437 655352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Siterip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70258&oldid=70244 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+176) 10Add clarification > 1584022440 118064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Siterip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70259&oldid=70257 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1786) 10/* Syntax validity */ < 1584022532 960922 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o < 1584023268 426293 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1584024227 262124 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584028525 775213 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Never use a higher-order solution when a first-order solution would suffice." < 1584028866 867826 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, always remember, automatic merge is a best effort heruistic. < 1584029018 865452 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584029062 327140 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... < 1584029081 673605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How far is the author of that quote willing to push that idea? < 1584029112 83884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( unfold all your procedures. cut&paste code is the best code. embrace goto. ) < 1584029222 609931 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't WvO [plan to] write a paper called "Abstraction considered harmful"? < 1584029248 506939 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100))" obviously refers to the particular construction that we can actually write down without knowing anything about BB() except its definition. < 1584029280 371653 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess I'm counter-nitpicking. Surely not very useful, that is. < 1584029289 358482 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know, but some of my coworkers managed to internalize that principle and built large unmaintainable systems with it without the need for a paper < 1584029314 540062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm WvO < 1584029338 972420 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not even disagreeing with that premise. < 1584029368 755702 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1584029373 592032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think one should stop abstracting when it stops significantly compressing the code, in a weak and fuzzy sense that takes readability into account. < 1584029410 469041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For "real" code.) < 1584029480 759061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who's WvO. < 1584029523 924501 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know who might've said those words before me (and I put them in quotes for a reason) but here's how far I'd push it: if you're thinking of writing a macro or a middleware or a metaclass please, please think hard about the class of problems it's supposed to solve and why it's the best way to solve them. < 1584029538 261521 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WvO = Wouter van Oortmerssen < 1584029551 270095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't ring a bell? < 1584029563 737575 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know who Wouter van Oortmerssen is? < 1584029565 507283 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, that version is more reasonable < 1584029595 755316 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But at least now I can $GOOGLE) < 1584029607 531880 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel old now < 1584029619 422407 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584029637 789810 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not sure it's an age thing. It's probably more of a bubble phenomenon. < 1584029697 819469 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... but... FALSE < 1584029706 981984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'm bad with names. It's quite possible that I've encountered him before. I've certainly heard of False and also of Ardappel (at least in passing). < 1584029812 237848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I could lament abstractions all day. Especially abstractions that solve a simple problem but are unreasonably complex (because they solve many more problems that nobody has). Favorites: Docker. Kubernetes. < 1584029856 311360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm expecting some backlash for this :P Though maybe this is the right crowd to not get much of it.) < 1584029858 368338 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584029902 552159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I forgot, do you use Haskell? < 1584029914 905000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If so, what do you think of lens? < 1584029997 26203 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Haskell but I only use like 15% of it. I don't even use monads (if I can help it) so, no, I haven't used lenses. < 1584030005 49603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lens is a bit of a puzzle to me. And I'm not sure whether I'm just not serious enough of a programmer to appreciate it, or whether it's *actually* a cult with no real gain. I suspect the former.) < 1584030077 897673 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do recall a blog post (I believe?) that said that lens is not idiomatic Haskell, and that certainly resonated with me. < 1584030089 783214 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the impression that if I had an actual need for reversible translations, lens would be useful, but, I could also believe there are lots of people who want translations to be reversible for what are mostly aesthetic purposes... < 1584030103 671506 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584030108 201755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have broken into the level of complexity where I felt that monads (the RWS kind) pay off. < 1584030179 188243 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1584030195 222440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I use the list monad all the time. < 1584030271 659081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The kind of deeply nested data structures that lens is (supposedly) good for just don't seem to come up in my code. < 1584030296 701129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its vocabulary is just so overwhelming that I never really tried to learn any of it. < 1584030662 517143 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more interested in recursion schemes. But, right now, even more interested in learning Coq and seeing what can be done with extraction. < 1584030716 366785 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've worked through the exercises in the first 2 chapters of the first volme of https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/ so far < 1584030834 469122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you use coqide or something else? < 1584030873 28655 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my recursion schemes are accidental infinite recursion bugs < 1584030903 227568 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started out using jsCoq, then eventually figured out how to install CoqIDE, now using it instead < 1584030903 615461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: you could type them in a system with strong normalization < 1584030932 973694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with obvious downsides) < 1584030937 777597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584030949 868714 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: even the simplest typesafe language would give an error (or at least warning) for that < 1584030951 625360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hais523 < 1584031035 939350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1584031247 286702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Turing-complete10]]": category redirects don't actually work, the pages don't show up in the redirected-to category > 1584031286 544155 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70260&oldid=70222 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10cat fix > 1584031309 430415 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eso2D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70261&oldid=70204 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Resources */ cat fix > 1584031332 597275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70262&oldid=70241 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10cat fix < 1584031522 984667 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : And its vocabulary is just so overwhelming that I never really tried to learn any of it. => I used lens in one unfinished interpreter project, I think the code was more or less nice but I haven’t used full potential of lens ever. Lens is mildly intriguing but I totally agree it’s so big and complex < 1584031598 87811 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that project, I used those assignment-like operations for State monadic code < 1584031605 888115 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like lens, but I'm the one responsible for there being so many damn operators < 1584031609 629918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were convenient < 1584031626 824061 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because I needed <<+= for one thing so I added all the rest too) < 1584031648 410756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does <<+= do? < 1584031652 163366 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: oh now I know who to blame why I can’t let myself dive into them < 1584031693 579954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, idea: a programming language that accepts every keyword, operator, control structure etc. from all other languages < 1584031693 859674 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "l <<+= n" adds the number n to the target of the lens l in the state, and returns the value before the addition was performed < 1584031732 633463 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in a MonadState) < 1584031734 23943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, oddly languages like C don't have a "postincrement-by" operator < 1584031751 406124 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and all control structures which aren’t possibly implemented anywhere yet, like exitwhen < 1584031772 804593 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> runState (do _1 <<+= 3) (4, "hello") < 1584031774 975059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can always create an esolang to have somewhere to put them < 1584031775 397660 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : (4,(7,"hello")) < 1584031789 795362 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a straightforward extension to exitwhen to allow it to represent arbitratry, albeit local, effects < 1584031825 380446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL has a way to run a statement and it doesn't do anything until it becomes not an error, then it runs at that moment < 1584031833 307054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though some other part of the code is executing < 1584031835 107145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, at least < 1584031842 939290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably jury-rig an exitwhen out of that < 1584031886 907724 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : and returns the value before the addition was performed => mhmm could this kind of a behavior be abstracted out somehow? < 1584031949 80519 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (%%~) < 1584031950 678796 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LensLike f s t a b -> (a -> f b) -> s -> f t < 1584031959 737227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Java uses the name "getAndUpdate" for that < 1584031967 220922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Java doesn't have overloaded operators, just overloaded functions) < 1584031967 786189 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (<<%~) < 1584031969 427224 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LensLike ((,) a) s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> (a, t) < 1584032001 581021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<+= would be "getAndAdd" < 1584032011 33431 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wondering what's going on < 1584032024 615231 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: that is rather the point of this channel sometimes, I feel < 1584032061 55851 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you learn what's going on and we move on to something else, leaving you a little bit more enlightened in the mystical arts of the absolutely useless < 1584032082 670745 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584032095 415615 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel that esoteric languages present a learning opprotunity, and as such are not absolutely useless < 1584032116 830305 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the language that is useless, but what it teaches < 1584032131 493913 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case the language is more or less Haskell < 1584032188 705541 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ais523 | hmm, idea: a programming language that accepts every keyword, operator, control structure etc. from all other languages" < 1584032209 842391 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make a language that can selfmodify, and implement that as a construct in itself < 1584032217 928794 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. make a FORTH and build from there :P < 1584032222 331346 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not the language that is useless, but what it teaches" I'll have to remember that one < 1584032225 292645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a CLC-INTERCAL < 1584032242 805135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess IACC is the better term for it < 1584032248 909004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the language in which CLC-INTERCAL is implemented) < 1584032253 724168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IACC itself is implemented in Perl, also IACC < 1584032268 525346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a very complex bootstrapping process involved < 1584032303 366430 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's not what I say that's profound, but the thoughts it inspires < 1584032357 71791 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Pharo smalltalk would work too' < 1584032362 628614 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written in a subset of itself < 1584032431 335104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, lots of languages are < 1584032899 831221 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kinda wish there was a JIT language that was implemented in itself. So even the JITting logic would be JIT'd < 1584032935 172736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that entering Featherweight territory? < 1584032962 595083 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1584033008 419409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most implementation schemes I thought of for Feather were something like that, although it was more like "alternating AOT compilation" < 1584033012 868934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a JIT would work better, though < 1584033024 921170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alternating AOT = when you alternate between compiling and running) < 1584033078 658244 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: isn't Pypy that? < 1584033089 989323 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know it very well though) < 1584033096 753143 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so? < 1584033104 733107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternating AOT is definitely a thing though... I believe both in the Smalltalk world and in the SML world, probably elsewhere as well. < 1584033151 729189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it may extend to JIT (with the profiling-based hotspot optimization) as well. < 1584033195 300036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my mental picture of this, the real trouble is to get rid of the bootstrapping parts eventually. > 1584033197 174031 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Function x(y)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70263 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1528) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''function x(y)''' is a language created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== To start a function: function x() Or: function x(y) Or it can have as..." < 1584033211 5339 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternating compilation: odd-numbered statements are interpreted, even-numbered statements are compiled < 1584033678 665190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584033750 275353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584034002 475896 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1584034273 634829 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1584035586 672956 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584035723 673978 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584037295 759575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1584038891 926051 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uosmngyljupuzdef JOIN :#esoteric < 1584039283 672798 :kritixil1!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584039754 677006 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's implementation-defined if statement numbering starts on 0 or 1) < 1584040160 237344 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: or statements starting with PLEASE or PLEASE DO are compiled, statements starting with DO are interpreted < 1584040357 621428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM USING INTERCAL > 1584040410 555597 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70264&oldid=70247 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+20) 10 < 1584040410 571727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not serious, it's kind of fun. Though I haven't touched it in years...) < 1584040414 717462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no! don't do that, now we have to figure out how to do the equivalent of a REINSTATE from the C API < 1584040462 723525 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: pretend there was a line number and use a COME FROM statement? < 1584040489 446721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that could work, yes < 1584040490 810927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a fun way to effectively disable a statement... at least as long as the COME FROM is not ABSTAINED FROM. < 1584040563 448194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: tcsh can run goto statements in an interactive shell, forwards and backwards across multiple separate input lines. you can goto back to lines that have already been executed immediately. this is such a nice eso feature that I don't understand why no other interactive interpreter supports it. < 1584040576 257357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing come from in an interactive interpreter would be impossible though. < 1584040581 961918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least without a time machine. < 1584040623 968151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... and then things get paradoxical quickly < 1584040662 609480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe many-world intercal would be a lot cooler than threaded intercal < 1584040860 692748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :COME FROM [19:09] < 1584040863 87672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1584040866 159223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO COME FROM [19:09] < 1584040870 799531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my IRC client has timestamps, it's OK < 1584040892 691978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you just have to deal with time zones. < 1584040905 769136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's correct for my client, so I get to use INTERCAL, at least < 1584040905 811054 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess that was UTC. < 1584040925 92765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's GMT I think, which is basically identical to UTC but with some minor technical difference < 1584041007 642013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it alternate between GMT and BST? < 1584041022 168466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( time will tell ) < 1584041028 900836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my client does, yes < 1584041045 129260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so it seems that GMT is ambiguous with respect to how it handles leap seconds, but it's traditionally considered a proportion of a day < 1584041056 597007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so GMT times are supposed to smooth out leap seconds across the year < 1584041077 169653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are apparently also affected by the tides (which influence the earth's rotation to some extent) < 1584041090 436721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, once GMT had midday rather than midnight at time 0, but that was changed < 1584041112 932778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :On computers you'll get something close to UTC anyway (maybe with smoothed leap seconds) < 1584041115 603175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently you can write times like "December 31.5 GMT" < 1584041136 242280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a great idea, fractional days in dates is pretty obvious once you see it < 1584041144 383134 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. < 1584041209 942938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's a bit odd to start at 1.0 and end at <32.0. < 1584041220 736907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh yeah. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2007-03-32.1434.html#d.2007-03-32.1434 is dated to a stylized nonexistent date < 1584041238 252289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :March 32 2007 < 1584041240 239435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen? < 1584041253 686575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: deliberate style thing < 1584041266 999755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's the same basic concept as 9690 September, 1993 < 1584041267 848646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :David may have had to modify his blog engine to allow that for all I know < 1584041301 550446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of format is this... '2020 M05 30' < 1584041312 319857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it makes it clear what's the month and what's the day < 1584041316 225395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2016-12-31.2414.html#d.2016-12-31.2414 which is dated to an existent date but its topic is a fictional date < 1584041319 616642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you use a language where "month" starts with "m" < 1584041330 747220 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, more like the topic is what special event happens on a fictional day < 1584041339 521878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh that kind of makes sense. Still looks odd. < 1584041343 617884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it might be useful for unambiguity if you normally use a format that gives week numbers rather than month numbers < 1584041356 921907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those normally put a W into the format to avoid people misinterpreting them as months) < 1584041357 338194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, for week numbers you use < 1584041358 628558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datei < 1584041360 476590 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2020-03-12 19:29:19.493 +0000 UTC March 12 Thursday 2020-W11-4 < 1584041366 562718 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2020-W11-4 <--- that thing < 1584041417 697762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think the date was written as 2020 MAY 30 first, then someone changed the MAY to 05 but wasn't precise enough with the corrector fluid < 1584041435 557015 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly 2020 MAI 30 < 1584041486 788034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's how Firefox renders the expiration date of certificates for me in the "Security" tab of the "Page info" dialog... < 1584041497 298556 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And no, it's M for all months.) < 1584041523 128457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may have something to do with it, of course: LC_TIME="POSIX" < 1584041555 334547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh, that's an improvement. aren't those expiration dates stored in some insane format in the certificates, with the fields in some random order like %m%d%y%H%M%C%Z,%S ? < 1584041601 129190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, so some of the BBC radio stations send a time reference signal by radio on the hour most hours, consisting of five short beeps and one longer beep < 1584041615 689237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they adjust for leap seconds by sending an additional short beep on the leap second < 1584041630 196314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind-of clever, I should listen out for it next time there's a leap second < 1584041630 296135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nice < 1584041660 834555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annoyingly, LC_TIME has no effect on this. But setting LANG to en_US changes the format. < 1584041669 488019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also adjusts for negative leap seconds in the obvious way, but a negative leap second has never happened < 1584041699 343534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the five beeps from radio was how I set my watch long ago, when the internet didn't exist, I wore a watch, and cheap watches keep time so inaccurately that I had to set the time often < 1584041740 376942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the television also showed the time but that was not usable for setting an accurate clock because it had an impredictible amount of delay up to 5 seconds < 1584041754 208744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether radio-controlled clocks use the BBC time signal, or some other time signal < 1584041798 947399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they use some other signal < 1584041818 309426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not quite sure < 1584041824 346405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like radio controlled clocks < 1584041870 40570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK there's a phone number you can dial for an accurate time signal spoken as words < 1584041890 629810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(humans have recorded a description for every time it can display, a computer replays the human speaking the time) < 1584041900 691561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's rarely useful nowadays now that NTP exists, and IIRC fairly expensive < 1584041924 177233 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that still exists in Hungary, and surprisingly it's a three digit phone number too < 1584041962 250309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's useful because you can use it on dumb analog home phone lines when the electricity is out < 1584041984 67709 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, imagine you're blind and need to know the current time < 1584041994 570487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would probably have a local speaking clock, wouldn't you? < 1584042004 943728 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a blind teacher who had a wristwatch < 1584042013 323224 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he would touch the hands of the watch to know the time < 1584042019 809230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a local speaking clock on your mobile phone, because you don't want to pay for the telephone call every time < 1584042020 882862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there are devices for that. But that niche by itself should justify the 3 digit number :) < 1584042041 317428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried running `date | espeak` but its default output format isn't great for speaking < 1584042045 818659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's not used much. < 1584042088 138322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Hah. Now imagine making that into a cloud service that calls that phone number once per minute, and replays the resulting recording to all the users of the app. < 1584042145 640461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( The sad part is that I can't rule out with certainty that this is being done. We build amazingly stupid things. ) < 1584042161 809263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some other potentially useful but rarely used services that used to be available on dumb phone lines but have been discontinued since. I imagine the speaking clock service is very cheap to run now so there's not much incentive to discontinue it < 1584042227 935833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak` < 1584042228 919608 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :date: invalid date ‘'+%H:%M:\023, %A %-d \002 %Y' | espeak`’ < 1584042239 172847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, my client didn't interpret that well, n < 1584042240 617863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Wikimedia Commons Picture of the Year competition round 1 voting is on, but I'm too tired to look through the images now. I'll have to remember to do that some time before the voting ends on 2020-03-22 < 1584042253 619657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote privmsg #esoteric :date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak < 1584042255 180608 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1584042258 588199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak < 1584042261 602824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go? < 1584042268 830486 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what's the command to make my computer speak < 1584042273 816078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently noy < 1584042273 824206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: HackEso doesn't have a sound output < 1584042279 212992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wasn't trying to run it < 1584042280 882124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just post it in IRC < 1584042285 973211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date +%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %Y < 1584042286 742863 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:44:46, Thursday 12 2020 < 1584042290 251831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently my client interprets escapes even in /quote < 1584042294 584694 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has text-to-speech in system preferences / accessibility, but how to get it from terminal? < 1584042301 927185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y' | espeak < 1584042305 77511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1584042322 298762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y' < 1584042323 205901 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :date: invalid date ‘'+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y'’ < 1584042329 292373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y' < 1584042330 456529 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:45:29, Thursday 12 March 2020 < 1584042340 291443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :espeak is fairly good at pronouncing that format < 1584042375 303361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the actual speaking clock uses a different format including "half past" and "quarter to" and that sort of nonsense < 1584042392 665324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't want an actual speaking clock-alike, just something I could tell the time from < 1584042401 37556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're slowly advancing towards using a proper positional number system < 1584042415 823069 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can just use %H:%M:%S now < 1584042447 996571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more importantly, almost nobody writes months in roman numerals now, so that's one less format for months that I have to deal with < 1584042474 256840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still hate how months are sometimes named and almost no calendar lists both the name and the number of months < 1584042496 498152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if you're going to have a d:m:y date format, an h:m:s time format is inconsistent < 1584042500 298767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be s:m:h for consistency < 1584042518 138362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never know what number of month August and September are < 1584042522 887080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why times are consistently big-endian, whereas big-endian dates are rarely used outside technology < 1584042532 542519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I'm using %Y-%m-%d date format < 1584042532 938456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 and 9 respectively < 1584042545 683454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of my espeak date format < 1584042588 189464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :time formats are not consistently big endian, because "quarter to five" is not big endian, nor is "12 PM" < 1584042601 742766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "12:10 PM" < 1584042650 886250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for datetime formats, you know which website I hate the most about that? < 1584042686 99771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I just realised that middle-endianness is actually really common in the real world < 1584042690 50232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after seeing all these examples < 1584042700 819124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't thought of AM/PM as a digit but of course it is < 1584042757 603105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OOTS forums, not because "Today, 07:25 PM" is a really stupid datetime format, but because of the hypocricy: it says " (ISO 8601)" after each such timestamp and links to some webpage on W3C about what date formats you should use. < 1584042798 563112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I checked https://forums.giantitp.com/profile.php?do=editoptions , you can change the time zone, but you can't change to a saner datetime format < 1584042845 992612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only forum where I customized the date/time format (beyond changing the timezone) was mafiascum.net, which appears to allow all of strftime < 1584042857 509971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was because the default format didn't show the seconds and they were often important < 1584042864 574067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you follow the "show printable version" of thread link, that timestamp changes to "2020-03-12, 07:25 PM" < 1584042866 24437 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, some web forums allow that customization and some dont. < 1584042874 314510 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one thing how NNTP is better. While it uses one date/time format, the client can reformat it for display. < 1584042898 606586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I could technically have a custom client for these forums too < 1584042917 583785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is that phpBB's HTML format changes so often that you'd have to replace half of your client every year < 1584042928 807966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've parsed phpBB forums multiple times, they're never the same < 1584042932 400361 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, or a GreaseMonkey script, or whatever, but that isn't that good (including for the reason you specify, and others) < 1584042953 947657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's open source, isn't it? you could try to upstream an API < 1584042984 888944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't even deterministically parse the "Today" or "Yesterday" datetime format when it's near a day boundary < 1584043006 603778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it give you a better format when you mouse-hover it? < 1584043018 9897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not the OOTS server, no. < 1584043020 355901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Reddit the default time format is very imprecise but it gives you a proper datestamp in the title field < 1584043021 242202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other websites do < 1584043095 356951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't need an "API", those are for sites that use so much crazy javascript for rendering that the normal web output can't be parsed, with the website possibly trying to add extra restrictive terms for anyone using the API; phpBB isn't like that, the HTML can be parsed just fine, almost everything is represented in there, < 1584043104 650956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that they change the format every few years < 1584043107 237138 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584043147 863537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well the point of the API is also to be stable and machine-parsable, avoiding the need to scrape < 1584043153 160321 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer websites where there's no separate API, instead the HTML format has reliable classes and other extra info that isn't necessarily used for rendering the default view, but reliable for anything you want to do client-side < 1584043154 943379 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584043170 712107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: an API, sure. those are fine. it's "API"s that I don't like. < 1584043174 344333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's pages are very scrapable and I've written a number of scripts to scrape them, yet it was nonetheless decided that an API would be useful and it is widely used < 1584043186 687237 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1584043194 559083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because it's less likely to break as a consequence of unrelated changes < 1584043203 97431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, mediawiki has the api.php which is mostly well designed, better than most others < 1584043210 705280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not perfect, but good enough < 1584043257 899478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used the mediawiki API for reading a few times, not yet for writing < 1584043302 993102 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should be made to use NNTP; if a message is received by NNTP, the headers should be kept (including message ID if the client specifies one), and then decide how to render for the web interface (it should render the message as plain text, unless there is a "Content-type: text/markdown" header, perhaps); and then also implement other way around. < 1584043326 439032 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The web interface should also need to display the message ID and connection information, even if JavaScript and CSS are both disabled. < 1584043365 115152 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I considered making changes to espeak’s data to make it pronounce Russian better, but I think that’s a hard task without some software to help with editing and analyzing all the stuff e. g. in which direction vowel parameters should be changed, to not try all possible values in vain < 1584043410 810044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( esqueak ) < 1584043442 387313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :espeak is one of those programs which I would /expect/ to be almost impenetrable to someone not familiar with the code < 1584043466 582600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, the IOCCC submission deadline is coming soon < 1584043466 632422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's trying to do something that, for most humans, would be poorly defined and very difficult to express rigorously < 1584043473 278889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's open again? < 1584043476 963817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1584043481 457793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably won't have a submission for this year < 1584043485 742734 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also this usually requires extending the dictionary with many rare wordforms < 1584043489 302629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a great idea a number of years ago but never had time to work on it < 1584043498 857431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and another great idea a number of years ago which GregorR used to win) < 1584043540 861784 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's closing in a few days anyway < 1584043541 492748 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a few IOCCC ideas, but most probably wouldn't work, and I didn't have the energy to work on the remaining ones < 1584043558 640017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I felt like working on them, I wouldn't care about the deadline, because it's a recurring event now < 1584043575 793133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter much if I can only submit something two years later and it's judged two years after that < 1584043584 904889 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it can matter a little < 1584043586 751573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not too much < 1584043594 279737 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, I didn’t mean the code, the language properties are defined in separate files < 1584043602 7266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: those too < 1584043618 175965 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah their format is quite complex I think < 1584043649 43426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it has to be. languages are complex if you want to text to speech them. < 1584043662 929993 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done some changes with espeak files before < 1584043673 377602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages are complex full stop, apart from a few conlangs and computer languages < 1584043678 495585 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also there are the recordings for consonants, which also can require meddling with. Though the vowels may come first < 1584043682 423288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is because information is complex < 1584043690 904753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and languages are about expressing information < 1584043698 962197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are they domain-specific words, possibly acronyms, added to the dictionary with custom pronunciations < 1584043699 983125 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah languages are a ton of complexity on so many levels < 1584043755 852311 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not do dictionary modification, just the speech modification < 1584043779 569538 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though phonetics per se is not that complex, but even this one task, of representing an appropriate average phonetic invertory for a dialect, may be rendered hard to do, as in espeak < 1584043802 262682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"invertory" < 1584043807 22677 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :phonology is where things become more complex, and mapping from the written text, still more < 1584043857 327184 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wonder if a file can be written for clock speech < 1584043876 24983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there's an old IOCCC entry for that < 1584044279 471990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.3.175.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1584044434 755753 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1584044440 611521 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m almost jealous for Spanish where marking accent is for what I know mandatory < 1584044499 330495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha I accidentally forgot to pay to my ISP, here now take my money and give me #esotetic back < 1584044573 763481 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this post hadn’t even gone through: < 1584044579 972269 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with languages having accent which jumps here and there and isn’t usually marked in the text, oh. A dictionary wouldn’t solve annotating accents as this may require parsing the actual syntax to make out which of homographic words each one is. Happily, espeak allows to mark accents manually, and happily, Russian has only one kind of accent and no tones < 1584044673 926159 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : "invertory" => hm? :) < 1584044822 79808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :¿„invertory„? < 1584044880 891617 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you typoed that one first < 1584044899 824196 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ww… why < 1584044912 488546 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll consult my dictionary one sec < 1584044924 135875 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1584044958 520256 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sneaky one. I haven’t even noticed something’s wrong < 1584045091 727729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you at least notice "#esotetic"? < 1584045157 463000 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1584045193 502636 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but why ais52̈3) < 1584045211 693099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't paying attention to the channel < 1584045213 866374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not, most of the time < 1584045221 950476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'll catch up on scrollback on occasion < 1584045268 366780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh sorry < 1584045275 401703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stop tab-expanding the wrong person < 1584045363 693418 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1584045381 554273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? torgle < 1584045383 50534 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :torgle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1584045438 341126 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? perl < 1584045439 728695 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language < 1584045445 621045 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1584045493 517078 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone has non-secret plans for 2020-04-01? < 1584045512 79190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I'll be reading the SIGBOVIK proceedings probably < 1584045541 89916 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I forgot about that, I should make a bookmark < 1584045731 607084 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I meant, have you planned something impure, i. e. effectful < 1584045787 425649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? plans < 1584045788 872544 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :plans? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1584045934 707423 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for my part I’m still to have an idea from somewhere. Unfruitful. No flashy philosophic zen esolang ideas too. Completely unacceptable < 1584045979 586354 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe an esolang utilizing exitwhen only, but I’m not confident that’s possible < 1584046066 624223 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also obviously exitwhen is a local construct, and the corresponding global thing is simply algebraic effects (if one treats exitwhen in an extended sense) < 1584046129 212875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's a Wednesday so I'll go to the swimming pool. how much do viruses survive in a chlorinated swimming pool? because infecting others or getting infected could be impure. < 1584046149 44091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is it a wednesday? < 1584046156 119860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me recheck < 1584046167 608994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully that kind of impure wouldn’t happen to any of us! < 1584046179 972856 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datei 2020-04-01 < 1584046180 883603 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2020-04-01 00:00:00.000 +0000 UTC April 1 Wednesday 2020-W14-3 < 1584046186 21174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, wednesday < 1584046533 155348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, are you a mad scientist, called mad by the world? < 1584046533 350968 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: have to go pick up tomorrow without any pain at all and defer you to write the procedure f which i just can't < 1584046695 87856 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1584047184 833064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1584047199 372945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584047223 149076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I habituallly use two context characters when nickpinging someone < 1584047242 633530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOA I just found a useful feature in the UI of this phone < 1584047256 43504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still sucks in general, just slightly less than I thought < 1584047277 519034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, what do you mean by "two context characters"? < 1584047447 759664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first two characters < 1584047463 737880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you can nickping someone with just tab, but the IRC client needs to guess a lot in that case < 1584047480 12959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried it out and it guessed "b_jonas:" which seems like a reasonable guess in the circumstances < 1584047490 159621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, tab expansion < 1584051007 389667 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the meantime I hypothesize a concatenative language with dynamic-typed effects and handlers *rofl* < 1584051076 661224 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think I’m doing something wrong as I came to need an additional `unhandle` primitive to be able to represent rethrowing an exception, when treating throwing exceptions as a type of effect < 1584051115 229960 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else the code would try to handle an exception thrown in the handler by that same handler < 1584051225 931243 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( tab expansion makes your tabs 8 characters wide ) < 1584051257 282348 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabstops* < 1584051447 202748 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I would be able to represent alg. datatypes and matching on their values via this effect framework, but it seems impossible. Their analogy is not of this kind < 1584051845 601134 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or maybe with quasiquoting and making a set of data constructors separate from effect constructors one could go Scott on them: a data constructor DataX takes the corresponding number of values v1, …, vn from the stack and pushes a quote [ v1 … vn EffectX ]. Then a match construct pops a quote and evaluates it in the context of an effect handler corresponding to this data type. Hm but if one tries to handle a wrong value, it can be < 1584051845 713530 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :handled with some outer matching construct not intended to do so. Though that’s a pretty esotetic behaviour < 1584051855 926968 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again that typo < 1584051920 951032 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like this? (not “esotetic” but data via effects) < 1584052132 933845 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to this, it may as well be called Esotetic Invertory < 1584052149 365386 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this hypothetical language < 1584052361 205903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I’m lazy to write many things needed for that to work at all: a basic stack language, quotes, quasiquoting, dictionary literals (maybe as a kind of macro), a couple of basic datatypes for making IO with, and also a symbol datatype too, for specifying effect names and constructors in handlers < 1584052398 52435 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though one can do with integer indices for constructors, and then arrays instead of dictionaries. Hmm… < 1584052644 62504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-83.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: modify an existing langauge then? < 1584052683 285441 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it may be more tedious as I would need to understand how it works first < 1584052702 809382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can minimize this thing sufficiently, though < 1584053244 366127 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1584053404 427048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( I hate email ) < 1584053575 571218 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the logs down < 1584053745 878239 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose one can push not only a fresh quote by using `[ ... ]` but also push a function pointer by just writing `'word` or something. Then I can make effect types into plain words, and effect constructor will just push that “effect quote” and an additional index. A handler will be able first to compare the pointer to the one it’s supposed to handle, and if it’s OK, it’ll apply it to the constructor index and select the handling < 1584053745 987484 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :path based on the result < 1584053745 987576 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that requires way less primitives but it can be wrapped gracefully. An effect constructor wrapper would just place an effect quote and index on the stack and call an universal `effect` primitive which would find a nearest correct handler nearest to the top of the call stack, slice a continuation, push it under those two valuesm call the handler etc. etc. < 1584053745 987592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I’d be more glad if I’ll come up with something neater than arbitrary values to represent effect constructors. Or I should reject constructors altogether and think of that value as an argument. Hm but that way one could make it to shift/reset and this is too far < 1584053973 112495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think my net connection is dead slow < 1584054167 946428 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: at least alternative logs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D do work. The primary ones don’t load for me right now too, but approx. 2 hours ago they did < 1584054229 228798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got the tunes < 1584054563 450753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : are the logs down ← stalker mode is still updating live < 1584054589 499975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't load the page in a new tab < 1584054598 335243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think the logs are updating but the webserver hosting them is having issues < 1584054639 411248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :504, apparently < 1584054857 309206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: email, but it turns out that poking people via email is more effective than leaving them reports on github) < 1584055071 484136 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uosmngyljupuzdef QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity