< 1584144425 215870 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1584144769 818394 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584144959 756439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't really like it, the affinity is unlikely to matter especially on a spell that costs {1}, and {4}, {T} seems way too expensive for the activated ability < 1584144985 355637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think it wouldn't be worth playing even if the ability cost {0} < 1584145192 641379 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if "poison" is deleted? < 1584145289 410835 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :better, still pretty narrow though. it just seems like a much worse Chronomaton < 1584145302 402697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot more interesting; I think {4}, {T} is probably still too expensive but it has the core of an interesting card now < 1584145363 976163 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who/what is "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"? < 1584145607 359358 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name of a (unofficial) legendary creature card. (That in turn is the name of a character from a Dungeons&Dragons game I played, although I now play GURPS and included that character too sometimes, although my main character is now Ziveruskex.) < 1584145788 803049 :longname_!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584145844 427333 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1584145858 506889 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, since it is just used for parity, could that last waterclock be a flooding clock instead? < 1584145864 450639 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1584145864 565668 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1584145897 100090 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584145940 899102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver42: which clock? apart from halt clocks, I don't think any of them could be flooding because you need to adjust apparently irrelevant clocks just to undo the steady decrement < 1584145943 360437 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1584145965 376617 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :E' < 1584145976 335710 :lifthrasiir_!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1584146003 113883 :relrod_!~relrod@origin.elrod.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1584146007 982759 :relrod_!~relrod@origin.elrod.me QUIT :Changing host < 1584146007 982804 :relrod_!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric < 1584146010 897361 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no i see it is a little more complicated than that < 1584146012 115736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :E' needs to run only once for multiple reasons, perhaps the most obvious is that it needs to adjust its own value relative to E by a set amount < 1584146032 532600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it can't do if it's been held in stasis (with increments and decrements cancelling out) for an arbitrary length of time and is flooding < 1584146048 487032 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584146048 683979 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584146048 798505 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584146048 798541 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584146087 487184 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cant just double itself and add itself to everything? < 1584146089 936737 :relrod_!~relrod@redhat/relrod NICK :relrod < 1584146142 664743 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like it would be difficult to track but yeah i dont think it would actually work < 1584146379 837378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it adjusts itself by any more than it should, it won't trigger the next time that it should < 1584146552 355353 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :flooding clocks are so hard to work with < 1584146574 671175 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism. < 1584146651 414439 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1584147053 24385 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, a few days ago, the NNTP server at aioe was confused about the highest article number in a newsgroup; trying to access it resulted in an error. However, it seems to be corrected now. Do you know why it does that? < 1584147146 135029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1584147291 462555 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even while that was broken, I was still able to use NEWNEWS to download the articles instead, since they don't disable NEWNEWS (although it seems that some servers do disable NEWNEWS, but aioe isn't one of them, fortunately).) < 1584147474 244977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-225.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1584150760 217536 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much should be the activation cost be if "{4}, {T}" is too much, then? < 1584151200 237012 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just {T} or just mana like {3} < 1584151245 194419 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tapping the guy on your turn only if theres a counter on a player is pretty narrow < 1584151450 784245 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1584153371 286474 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ernlbxbtsgquxizx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1584154275 347977 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I saw mahjong tiles that go up to ten. < 1584155416 672793 :jpaldama!~jpaldama@172.241.166.77 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584155516 329008 :jpaldama!~jpaldama@172.241.166.77 PART :#esoteric < 1584156108 68462 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156169 884552 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156170 51538 :divergence!~div@185.153.151.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156219 880109 :stux-!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156235 269813 :ski_!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156246 922299 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156248 870600 :mynery!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156423 366016 :relrod_!~relrod@origin.elrod.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156427 681414 :relrod_!~relrod@origin.elrod.me QUIT :Changing host < 1584156427 681460 :relrod_!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156526 745654 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156526 772138 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156526 836352 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 77025 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 164868 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 538550 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 645025 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 835319 :diverger!~div@185.153.151.65 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156527 979587 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156528 52301 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0486e-15.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156528 93170 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584156531 886944 :relrod_!~relrod@redhat/relrod NICK :relrod < 1584156572 373344 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1584156948 761243 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0486e-15.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584158165 80600 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584158269 626865 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584160104 201023 :ski_!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se NICK :ski < 1584160307 286224 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1584160422 616538 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1584161096 436527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1584164977 487936 :MTGBusyBeaver42!4925260f@c-73-37-38-15.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584165700 184550 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de NICK :Hooloovo0 < 1584165755 319471 :stux-!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :Quit: Aloha! < 1584165861 892911 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584168201 850901 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.94.167 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584169658 850740 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.94.167 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584169991 616680 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.94.167 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584171531 367465 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1584171731 974321 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.94.167 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1584174735 714726 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1584175485 995783 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584176301 865692 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1584176463 703753 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584176637 422182 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584176679 986600 :mynery!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com NICK :myname < 1584176994 370516 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584178911 358584 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584179138 624819 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1584181190 855896 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1584181426 221329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1584183238 679884 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584184280 287204 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584184396 866484 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1584184563 69441 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584184610 931355 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh the parallel between girl genius and schlock mercenary increases < 1584184942 666010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ < 1584186383 221610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1584186394 933014 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584186431 105408 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1584186474 35995 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1584187120 518277 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1584187514 713174 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1584187590 541985 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584188343 854073 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1584188943 680005 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584189408 85912 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584189451 801679 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-212.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1584190683 690858 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584190736 723057 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric > 1584190759 662131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DAMN COVID-1914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70277 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+17258) 10+[[DAMN COVID-19]] > 1584190763 645911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70278&oldid=70253 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+20) 10+[[DAMN COVID-19]] > 1584190766 764669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70279&oldid=70243 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+20) 10+[[DAMN COVID-19]] < 1584191702 510548 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever user Hakerh400 is...lol < 1584191782 496710 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :making a silly language around a serious topic < 1584191860 714040 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1584191904 532036 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584192435 651709 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that actually looks like a decent puzzle game idea < 1584192746 394111 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1584192808 511575 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it gave me a laugh because of the name applied to it. i have a weird sense of humor < 1584192991 288585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-212.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584195234 499161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :“If there is a city in the current cell, remove it, otherwise add it (works only when all cities are previously infected)” => adding a city means the virus is quite intellectual! < 1584195416 762377 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m concerned by undefinedness of the distribution of random added cities. It’s stated that adding no cities has low probability and that the map should have one island after adding all new cities and have the same holes as before, but that all is too uncertain < 1584195434 765702 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though there is a reference implementation to look into < 1584195463 260944 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume also the map can’t become infinite < 1584195855 372401 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1584197535 673698 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1584203192 656530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric > 1584203771 297268 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07IRCIS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70280&oldid=69890 5* 03Batman nair 5* (+498) 10More functions added to the program < 1584204681 827142 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1584204782 867416 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1584205026 945897 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1584205682 860369 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584205748 184420 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1584205844 587607 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. < 1584205849 403140 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, so it's just a regular bank with a basement room for the safety deposit boxes.) < 1584205920 479222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp vault < 1584205923 601256 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1584205928 791010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote vault < 1584205931 988819 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1584206250 250780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice. I hope it's not on a DVD, but on a media that stands time more reliably, such as an SD card. < 1584206265 649818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or printed on acid-free paper, but it would be hard to restore from that. < 1584206347 472036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I thought actual DVDs are pretty good. But no clue about the writable media, they're bound to be quite a bit worse. < 1584206389 298132 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:183c:c0cb:d3a1:c61:69e1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584206443 914091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: DVDs are good if you need to store data for only a few years. they're less good if you want to store the data for 20 yeras. < 1584206464 415549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, I mean burnable DVDs < 1584206494 325472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :factory molded DVDs are supposedly better, but those are published in lots of copies, so if you lose one, you can probably get the data from somewhere else < 1584206565 7810 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make backups on DVDs, but they are recorded rather than pressed DVDs. I don't know how long it is expected to last, though. (They are DVD-R, in case that matters. I don't know if DVD+R is better or worse.) < 1584206640 427897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make such backups too, because having the backups a year or two later can also be potentially valuable if the data is lost from my hard disk < 1584206662 251617 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although these days I don't do that much, because data is becoming large, < 1584206671 389769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I mostly back up to hard disks and SD cards instead < 1584206716 706482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, today I installed a better ceiling light to my work room at home, with the help of my father, so now the lighting is actually decent < 1584206725 986203 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have fit all of the files on my computer on three DVDs (using compressed tape archives); one for /home, one for /var, and one for everything else. < 1584206737 494133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll still have to fine tune it, the three bulb holders are individually rotatable in 2D < 1584206747 274725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584206768 526108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I use compression to back up to hard disk too < 1584206777 60697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :compression is useful < 1584206796 831301 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The copy is on a hard disk, which I'm not so certain about the durability of. I've got three that I rotate cyclically (one in the machine for weekly incremental copies, one on the shelf, and one in the vault), and run long-form SMART self tests on every swap. < 1584206797 22454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmprssn s sfl < 1584206828 128420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sure, that's why you copy to multiple hard disks. each individual hard disk isn't too reliable, but you can copy between them fast. I should buy more hard disks. < 1584206920 328919 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got two blank M-DISCs that came with the external DVD drive I got recently, but I'm not sure what to put on them. They're allegedly supposed to last for a thousand years, but I don't know how much that is marketing hype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC < 1584207041 285457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess marketing hype too < 1584207172 983697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CDs were believed to last a very long time when first created, that subsequently turned out to be incorrect < 1584207179 445560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the were less durable than expected < 1584207224 462453 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584207294 360340 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584207568 222588 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Canadian government says that DVD-R discs will last for 50-100 years if with gold, or 10-20 years if with silver. < 1584207743 458980 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :And You believe what the GOVT says? < 1584207803 724951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the country? < 1584207817 569937 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, considering that DVDs were not invented 50 years ago, I don't think so. < 1584207854 76425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are there details for that statement? are they staying that they last for that long in library archive conditions, that is, at constant temperature and constant low humidity? < 1584207883 962956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Light (UV in particular) probably matters as well. < 1584207893 436031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1584208002 748357 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says if you do not write on the disc, the disc is stored in a case, in vertical orientation, in a cool and dry environment. < 1584208023 719361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most rolls of thermal paper used for receipts here have a writing on the back that says it's guaranteed to be readable for 8 years, provided you store it away from direct sunlight, in temperature btw 18°C and 23°C, on humidity 50±8%. this last one is impossible to satisfy at home, so if you actually want to keep the information on the thermal paper for more than two years, it's better to scan or < 1584208029 727977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :photocopy it. < 1584208044 833409 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do all of those things; there is some writing on the disc, although I store them in the basement. < 1584208056 183378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: cool and dry environments, right, that's the tricky part < 1584208067 619480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could manage not writing on them, instead writing on a paper case surrounding it < 1584208072 952333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :envelope < 1584208110 27126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I do is storing most of the DVD backups in my parent's house, not because that's a better site, but just to have off-site backups < 1584208125 333586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I buy more hard disks, then I should do that with rotated hard disk backups too. < 1584208216 663979 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also store the discs in a cupboard, which is dark inside, so there isn't light on it.) < 1584209373 107726 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1584209775 296749 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:183c:c0cb:d3a1:c61:69e1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1584210878 582732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584210951 184783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584211513 994992 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. => yay! < 1584211664 267448 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1584211816 88479 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :re, backups: there are also tools to use redundancy to make chosen files more robust to errors. Though I don’t know if there are any that leave at least one usual copy of the file intact so one can read that without the need to resynthesize those file chunks, if they hope that the data is still intact < 1584212045 13214 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I read up on intuitionistic Kripke models and it seems yes, all classical models are trivially these models with one world, and also I think one can make a clever model where in one word it’s a classical standard model, and a world above that hosts a classical nonstandard model, and maybe in a world above that there is even larger nonstandard model, or one can add a world any other way < 1584212055 791361 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, even weirder < 1584212069 236912 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you can do that too. let's say you split your backup to three files, each half a DVD size. you distribute two copies of each across three DVDs. now you have three DVDs so that if any two of them are readable, you can restore your backup from them, and you don't need special tools for that redudnancy. < 1584212096 664049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not more than what I already use to split my backup to several files so that I can distribute them among DVDs just because they don't fit on a single DVD < 1584212202 959110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: most schemes for adding redundancy leave one copy intac < 1584212205 32356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*intact < 1584212234 590559 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is a good method but it requires a lot of space to hold the unwritten archive. Though having all that space is better than what I was doing when I used DVD backups < 1584212239 728040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, there are coding schemes where you can take, say, 10 DVDs, add an additional 4 DVDs as check information, and reconstruct the entire set if any 4 are lost < 1584212254 836827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or damaged) < 1584212264 999550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the first 10 contain all the information in the clear < 1584212293 753895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you need a DVD and half of space only, you can construct a DVD file system on the fly from two directories these days trivially < 1584212314 369071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory < 1584212321 552361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need more space than the backup < 1584212381 196888 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I was doing when I used DVD backups => (I tried to solve that oprimization problem by hand, writing directories and parts of them; it was a grindy form of art) < 1584212406 553371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect USB sticks to be more durable than DVDs (although considerably more expensive) < 1584212414 804546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I'm not certain < 1584212441 977704 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory => yeah that was what I used to do and it was awful < 1584212470 107287 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with video < 1584212481 885728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the more trickier secret sharing method, in which you distribute some data (in practice a symmetricy cryptography) key among three CDs such that it can be reconstructed from any two, but not from any one. obviously then you can't just write the data in plain text. this can be useful if you want remote backups of your secret key in places where there's a chance that they can be stolen. < 1584212531 154926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if error correction codes can be used to do that trivially? < 1584212540 394600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :start with your plaintext P; generate random data R < 1584212542 308563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's hard to tell. SD cards are certainly more resistant to bad storage conditions, and I suspect that they last long, but I can't tell if they last longer than a DVD in ideal (library archives with controlled temperature) < 1584212547 958252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :store P^R and R on the first two DVDs < 1584212559 998029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, no, that doesn't work < 1584212569 3629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the "check" DVD will contain P in plaintext < 1584212573 69531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can use a trivial xor method if you don't mind storing more data than necessary, which is fine with a secret key stored on digital media; < 1584212600 796749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want an optimal solution, you can use a solution based on polynomial interpolation, as explained in the description of David Madore's accidental IOCCC winnning entry < 1584212607 451077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the most common failure mode for flash memory (which SD cards and USB sticks are based on) is becoming read-only, which wouldn't be a huge issue in this context < 1584212621 527699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I normally use polynomial interpolation for this < 1584212636 34351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever since I won a codegolf competition with it < 1584212655 994618 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I’ve seen something like this a month or so ago, that’s why I mentioned redundancy in the first place. I’ll look for the link… < 1584212659 771100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has basically no downsides as far as I can see, other than the finite field often being annoying to construct and operate on < 1584212661 278993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nice. that should be possible, because the IOCCC entry is naturally somewhat golfed too. < 1584212718 706163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know some golfy ways to act on finite fields (though these don't interpolate polynomials): < 1584212724 897998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that in practice, finite fields are normally stored in lookup tables, because there aren't any "fast" ways of generating them on the fly (unless they have a prime size, obviously) < 1584212752 34645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, if you want to be able to number the elements consistently < 1584212753 355152 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: https://viereck.ch/scatter/ < 1584212805 732190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.perlmonks.com/?spoil=1;node_id=863110 golfy computation on GF(128) based on bitshifts (I think there's a faster way but you can't easily write it in perl, you need to use cpu-specific carryless multiplication instructions); https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 golfy GF(128) based on lookup tables; < 1584212840 271724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are much golfier ways to compute on GF(127) < 1584212845 716877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GF(256) is probably the most interesting one for error correction codes < 1584212862 296837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or GF(size of DVD), I guess < 1584212865 821764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, and David Madore's accidental IOCCC entry implements GF(255) IIRC < 1584212892 648743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, you need a size bigger than GF(255) only if you want to divide your code to more than 255 minus a few pieces < 1584212900 223817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a GF(255)? it isn't a prime power < 1584212907 414743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I mean GF(256) < 1584212955 341206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if you want more than 255 or so pieces, which isn't that unreasonable in some cases, you probably want a smaller field than the DVD-sized one < 1584212956 968317 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: minus how many pieces approximately? < 1584212972 677872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I think minus one piece in theory, but I'm not sure < 1584212990 241061 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1584213020 967578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you store the value of the polynomial at 255 places, and its value at the remaining place (say 0) is the secret data < 1584213036 211186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you choose all coefficients of teh polynomial except the constant one in a cryptographically random way < 1584213066 552379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's if you want all the parts to be necessary < 1584213081 581758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you just choose a lower degree polynomial if you don't want that < 1584213085 743091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want all the parts but one to be necessary, you choose all the coefficients but two in a cryptographically random way, don't you? < 1584213088 774319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can have a lower degree < 1584213091 260375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you choose a degree d polynomial, you need d+1 pieces < 1584213094 332125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, you choose the top one as 0 < 1584213104 800747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we had the same idea but expressed it different ways < 1584213171 477134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in practice, it's enough to secret share a fresh symmetric crypto key this way, and encode all your data with that key < 1584213191 367907 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the scheme seems familiar but I don’t get yet how does it scale from a single scalar in GF(…) to a piece of data, is it just componentwise? Ah, it seems it should be the only way < 1584213223 661929 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it doesn't even matter much how efficient your implementation is, but you can get efficient implementations, because the CPU people optimized the implementations, because they need GF(2**n) computations for other reasons, such as CRC < 1584213243 921846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, you do this to each byte of the data < 1584213270 180622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: see the comments in David Madore's program < 1584213286 153709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it describes the scheme well, plus also describes how it does computations on the particular finite field < 1584213351 384767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c < 1584213414 920852 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh! I thought it would be obfuscated < 1584213447 136402 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the IOCCC entry is based on that, and that one is obfuscated < 1584213510 180225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a great blog entry on it: www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html , telling that David didn't even know about the obfuscated program until the IOCCC committee announced the results and declared that David is also a winner because the obfuscated program was largely (and with attribution) based on his non-obfu program < 1584213544 349769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is like winning winning the IOCCC < 1584213594 670756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that sentence is hard to parse, but < 1584213712 972774 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so he didn’t write an IOCCC entry himself! < 1584213714 877021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :people sometimes say in an informal way that they won something that isn't even a competition because of style points, and in that sense, winning the IOCCC isn't a competition, because you wouldn't think there's a competition among IOCCC winners for who wins IOCCC the most awesome way, but it turns out that one can win that non-competition, and David showed how < 1584213735 486145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :excatly, but the judges decided that he was an author < 1584214807 413522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1584215070 267200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1584215664 649215 :divergence!~div@185.153.151.65 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584215787 873132 :diverger!~div@124.150.139.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584216251 221480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584218549 629316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584218561 376381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584225818 352835 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1584225866 854229 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584228835 273943 :longname_!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net NICK :longname < 1584228871 345998 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1584229573 794215 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584229719 428170 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1584229742 150669 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1584230115 792880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Function x(y)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70281&oldid=70273 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+322) 10/* Examples */