< 1584321224 782525 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZZT itself is now Free software (the source code has been reconstructed), but you will still need Turbo Pascal to compile it, so it is still "trapped". You will also need LZEXE. Doing this allegedly produces the same ZZT.EXE file as the original; the only difference may be how the source code is formatted, and the comments and possibly variable names and so on. < 1584321463 660281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1584321480 509695 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1584321556 451573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: didn't Borland make the Pascal compiler free at some point? Or do you need a specific older version? < 1584321671 546975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's free as in beer, though) < 1584321724 499143 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is freeware now, but not free software. (Still, it is a DOS program, so it is possible that you might not care.) < 1584321741 764995 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it sounds like it's abandonware < 1584322144 255647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to care... but now it's just for a couple of games. < 1584322174 58828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though actually I do have a working dosemu installation, which is probably unusual these days) < 1584322359 408605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: nah it was properly released... not just exploiting the fact that nobody's coming after you for your copyright violation < 1584322377 675260 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's cool < 1584322651 757729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm. CTRL-F9 Kill dosbox. < 1584322662 140232 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose bright idea was that ;) < 1584322699 494305 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could disable it if you do not want that, I suppose. < 1584322731 141928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CTRL-F9 runs programs in the Borland Pascal IDE) < 1584322793 590167 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to make it to use the "context menu" key instead of CTRL for this purpose, although if you save that into the configuration file, then it won't work. Does the new version fix this? < 1584322830 880486 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1584322836 436284 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1584322886 247692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see myself actually using this stuff ever again... definitely not in the near future. < 1584323000 473707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff is there because I've copied it from the previous computer, and it was there because I copied it from the computer before that... I think I'm at the 5th iteration now? < 1584323233 768335 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1584323351 821900 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1584323409 850600 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: do you have a particular use case for dosemu? < 1584323441 309352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PART :#esoteric < 1584323812 816248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no. it used to be a matter of speed. < 1584323845 295439 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1584323857 519941 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every modern CPU can run a plain emulator like dosbox faster than any original DOS machine, right? < 1584323876 813858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1584324020 159530 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BP IDE doesn't even run in the dosemu... some dpmi problem. Works in dosbox though. < 1584324096 53490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1584324192 32269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bpc.png <-- looks weird < 1584324300 983605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who knows. I may have misconfigured something, and I cannot really be bothered to debug this. < 1584324392 767317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially given the alternative that works. < 1584325771 911933 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone said they were considering updating NNTP for 2020, and posted a proposal to the IETF. I suggested increasing article numbers from 31-bits to 63-bits, and adding the WHOAMI command, both of these features I have implemented in my own software. Maybe the IETF will make this official. < 1584325838 114579 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They also called Usenet "the world's largest social media network".) < 1584325868 831812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584325944 567630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hearing that Turbo Pascal is now available in perpetual free-trial form is pretty encouraging < 1584325948 999895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have some old Pascal code from a while back < 1584325966 240326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember translating it into C but the C ran more slowly; that surprised me at the time and still surprises me now < 1584325974 647045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the Pascal had a better optimiser, or faster supporting libraries, or something < 1584326099 234858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, this pascal source is so old that the file ends with a literal ^Z character < 1584326106 742227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long ago was it that text files stopped needing those? < 1584326155 564146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, was it when we abandoned CP/M? < 1584326156 448845 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Pascal is faster because it is DOS. < 1584326164 935753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C compiler was also DOS < 1584326168 919493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, at least < 1584326347 238440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, the executable I compiled from the Pascal source still runs (in DOSBox) < 1584326348 478600 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although Pascal may be more suitable for DOS, at least in real mode. < 1584326353 558868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's not a surprise < 1584326375 638832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the executable I compiled from the C source does not run – it's missing dependencies – and I guess the problem is that those dependencies appear to be manually linked < 1584326384 587169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could be very slow given that the pixels are written individually with function calls < 1584326402 109045 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What graphics mode? < 1584326443 270660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like 16-color 640×480 VGA < 1584326462 756666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CP/M was a good guess, it seems; I vaguely remembered the record-based file access (which DOS mimics in its FCB interface for backward compatibility). "The CP/M file system only recorded the lengths of files in multiples of 128-byte "records", so by convention a Control-Z character was used to mark the end of meaningful data if it ended in the middle of a record."... < 1584326468 77719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-file < 1584326547 114298 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although I don't know why it should be ^Z, since that isn't the ASCII code for end of file; ^D might make more sense < 1584326565 644677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Z is the last letter of the alphabet. < 1584326584 820787 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( It's the latin omega. ) < 1584326649 374608 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although it stands for "substitute" and not "end of file", isn't it? < 1584326708 549851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever that means. < 1584326804 467768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intended use was as an equivalent of REPLACEMENT CHARACTER < 1584326806 996918 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "substitute" means there is no valid character, so it substitutes ^Z in its place. < 1584326810 527460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode REPLACEMENT CHARACTER < 1584326812 169203 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​� < 1584326839 876141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was mostly used for other purposes, and Unicode had to add a separate such character at U+FFFD < 1584326872 873783 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I remember that ^A and ^B displayed smileys. That's not in line with ASCII either. I don't think CP/M and DOS developers cared all that much. < 1584326896 585189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: code page 437 assigns glyphs for characters in the C0 and C1 regions, in addition to G0 and G1 < 1584326902 768844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or the PC BIOS developers which may be the actual people responsible?) < 1584326904 734647 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in the PC character set, the graphics at those points corrsepond to faces. < 1584326906 824809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C0 characters are very hard to write on most output devices < 1584326928 713446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C1 characters are incompatible with most of the relevant standards, but are used often enough that terminals often need to find a way to output them anyway < 1584326965 271026 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true of all of the control range; there are also graphics there on a PC, so that if you write directly to the video memory, they will be visible. < 1584327008 793667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. CP/M and by extention DOS used ^Z to mark the end of files. That's really where the discussion should've ended. < 1584327033 137712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :policing topicality here can be kind-of hard :-D < 1584327035 693733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a time machine. < 1584327036 136478 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is probably why DOS does that, because of CP/M. < 1584327045 497903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and retrocomputing is closer to our main topic than much of what's discussed here < 1584327068 279630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm mostly annoyed at myself for participating in it beyond that point :) < 1584327069 477791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually put thought into writing an esolang for retrocomputing purposes < 1584327092 638181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main aim being to reduce the amount of RAM that a program written in it takes to run, as far as possible < 1584327095 424255 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and even in esolang wiki there is a few retrocomputing stuff. And, I do want to see your esolang for retrocomputing purposes once you write it. < 1584327122 919141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using any trick available; overlays, swapping to disk, using bytecode interpreters with compressed bytecode, etc. < 1584327147 799182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't design most of the details < 1584327166 771205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one idea I had was for it to be a byte-compiled language where the bytecode used return-oriented programming < 1584327178 25482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a method of compression in addition to a method of function calls < 1584327291 783110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idea I had was to store all values as 1 byte on the stack, if they were more than 1 byte wide then a hash table element would be tied to the stack location and contain the real value, with the stack containing information to find the element < 1584327308 880884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably do something similar with the heap < 1584327374 911022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these are just ideas, and that's all I have, it's not like there's some big plan that I'm hiding < 1584327393 769621 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1584327435 735049 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like those ideas < 1584327521 606054 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I thought of the similar idea about return-oriented programming before, too) < 1584327564 211065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually surprised that return-oriented programming isn't done more often as a programming technique in cases where you don't have to use it < 1584327576 515916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, for the exploits against W^X code, it's often necessary) < 1584327596 944209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Underload has some similarities to return-oriented programming < 1584327605 60742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are a lot of differences too < 1584327765 230272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I imagine it's rather expensive because it messes up the builtin call-stack based branch prediction. < 1584327783 683096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's not necessarily the case if using a bytecode interpreter < 1584327790 200245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of modern CPUs) < 1584327803 136957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it seems likely you'd have a lot of mispredicted branches < 1584327809 404759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't matter so much in retrocomputing, though < 1584327877 648028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've certainly played funny tricks with the stack in golfing assembly code < 1584327919 873925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, machine code is what was golfed, really, but I wrote it in assembly) really, but I < 1584327984 362408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... ^J (line feed = return key) is next to ^K (delete until end of line) < 1584328003 977012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you normally don't linefeed mid-line anyway < 1584328004 12873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had so many IRC editing accidents because of this. < 1584328029 926763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see, you're trying to delete to the end of the line, but press ^J by mistake < 1584328037 71672 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1584328040 96790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my most common accident of that nature is hitting Return instead of Backspace < 1584328062 963611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which are, again, adjacent, and you need to reach a long way to hit backspace, over Return) < 1584328068 806290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Wrong keyboard layout for this, \ is between backspace and return here. < 1584328076 583687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could reach for the left-hand side of Backspace < 1584328082 685906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This often happens involuntarily though:\ < 1584328093 755206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean I could < 1584328095 364828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid the issue < 1584328115 943374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but spoke ambiguously because basically nobody uses "one" as a pronoun nowadays and none of the common replacements are really satisfactory < 1584328179 24772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the "you" didn't affect what I typed at all :) < 1584328218 267900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just trying to relate to the problem and realized that I no longer have this particular one. < 1584328262 162656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523- was using a laptop that was dropped ~3 years ago as an emergency replacement < 1584328275 903281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyboard layout was very similar to my current layout except that home/end were swapped with pgup/pgdn < 1584328288 733392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck < 1584328296 993823 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people get creative on that front... < 1584328317 43354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also it was using a bootable USB stick as the OS because I didn't want to substantially change the existing filesystem (for archival purposes), and its existing OS hadn't been updated in 3 years) < 1584328334 691856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I felt that merited half an underscore < 1584328354 926650 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this a weak form of vendor lockin? < 1584328366 633846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be, I guess < 1584328373 255406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You /could/ use any laptop but half of them will confuse you with their keyboard layout? < 1584328378 593990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually abandoned the old vendor (HP) because I didn't like its UEFI implementation < 1584328408 322952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, should the pronoun be "their" rather than "its"? I never did decide whether a company is singular or plural < 1584328477 203154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest offences of the implementation appeared to be a) making the secure boot variables read-only whenever they were edited once, until you did a full reset of the secure boot state < 1584328484 407163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably go for "their". But I also use singular "their" for gender-neutral means. < 1584328504 394616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) resetting the default bootloader to Windows's bootloader whenever you went into the UEFI settings < 1584328508 357605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though in this case I imagine a company as a group of people. < 1584328528 563284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's fairly well established that companies don't have genders and don't use pronouns that are intended only for people < 1584328547 950147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gender-neutrality isn't really an issue in this context, just singular/plural < 1584328560 330471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah I remember having to jump through some hoops to boot Linux on my former work HP Elite notebook. < 1584328566 951784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess an Agoran "eir" wouldn't be that out of place, corporations act like people in some respects after all, and "eir" is appropriate for non-human people < 1584328599 627465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's interesting that most Linux distributions don't add themselves to Windows' bootloader, it would seem like a logical thing to do < 1584328621 30519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so that you could use either shim+GRUB, or Windows Boot Manager, based on personal preference; and yet boot into all your OSes either way) < 1584328715 962587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use both Linux and Windows, then yes it can make sense I think < 1584328760 562682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's interesting that the common Linux implementation has bootloaders stacked 3 deep < 1584328784 504044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of booting... why do I have 17 linux kernel images installed :/ < 1584328792 687478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(firmware UEFI → shim → grub), and if you have a multiboot setup this stacks bootloaders 4 deep (because grub chain-loads Windows Boot Manager) < 1584328812 241997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all these levels are actually needed < 1584328863 149779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why doesn't debian remove them all and then rebuild the initrds once. < 1584328884 112028 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think UEFI isn't very good < 1584328891 244067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shim is a complicated compromise < 1584328894 826263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: whatever < 1584328943 643439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's a consequence of UEFI mandating an executable format that a) can only contain one digital signature and b) shipping with only Microsoft's key by default < 1584328954 161762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) isn't part of the standard, it's just what happens in practice < 1584328984 680749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it exists purely to validate a bootloader against someone else's key and then chain-load it < 1584329016 91500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the various Linux distros persuade Microsoft to sign versions of shim that recognise their key, which is easier than trying to persuade every motherboard manufacturer to recognise their key < 1584329065 597693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, with grubx64.efi isn't it just UEFI -> grub? < 1584329076 834822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: whose signature does grub have? < 1584329106 411057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience, distros put a signed version of grub into the UEFI bootloaders directory, but the UEFI refuses to load it unless someone manually changes the list of approved keys < 1584329108 528524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. You want actual secure boot? < 1584329116 574043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1584329124 472337 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fine. < 1584329142 812743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it explains the role of shim, I suppose. < 1584329160 308199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the many ideas I've had and will never have time to act on, is a UEFI program that lets the user manage keys manually, choosing who to trust and who not to trust < 1584329174 91820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with kernels that check the filesystem for integrity during boot (at least, the parts they execute) < 1584329209 979034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't need much more than a signed md5sums file and a more secure hashing algorithm than md5 < 1584329332 83460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess an extreme version would require some sort of password to set files as +x… < 1584329364 740030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(under the control of the user, of course) < 1584331513 855268 :shinh!~i@129.EC0234U.cyberhome.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1584333055 664728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi shinh < 1584335049 977400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :question to everyone: I invented an esolang just to write one program, and have now written the program, but haven't implemented the esolang < 1584335058 416909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I implement the esolang, or just compile the program by hand? < 1584335431 307152 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program and what esolang? < 1584336101 518377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking in general terms here < 1584336113 530271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be putting it up on the wiki once I'm sure it works < 1584336202 601816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, screw it, I'll upload the program < 1584336237 909750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the program: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/spiral-rise.wck < 1584336262 130894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an esolang interpreter (for a new esolang called Spiral Rise) written in another new esolang (called Waterfall Construction Kit) < 1584336268 42193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WCK is meant to compile to The Waterfall Model < 1584336297 524045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is currently defined by that one example program, which is its purpose for existence < 1584336381 889082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the program is correct, although I'm not sure, it's pretty hard to test < 1584336395 910568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to try compiling it by hand < 1584336415 650881 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. I think that it is worth at least documenting WCK properly. < 1584337741 908569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's 310031-in-base-5 in decimal? < 1584337846 408597 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean 310031 is a base five number, then the decimal is 10016. (You can figure out this by dc easily. It can also be figured out easily in JavaScript and also in PostScript.) < 1584337877 281234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought dc might be able to do it, but I wasn't sure how < 1584337893 541837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the answer, anyway, you interpreted the question correctly < 1584337916 175974 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to do in dc is: 5i310031p < 1584338073 493939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dc 5i310031p < 1584338075 163485 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc: Could not open file 5i310031p < 1584338079 393386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dc -e 5i310031p < 1584338080 416644 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :10016 < 1584338082 792621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1584338799 773967 :mig22!~mig@58.182.128.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584339142 862979 :mig22!~mig@58.182.128.226 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1584339596 664308 :mig22!~mig@58.182.128.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584339596 664377 :mig22!~mig@58.182.128.226 QUIT :Client Quit < 1584339725 949195 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584339902 284271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dc -e 5i200310031p < 1584339904 409949 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :791266 < 1584340182 200669 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:15ee:8f62:3c8d:fa4c JOIN :#esoteric < 1584343155 875968 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584343643 693910 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584344421 555390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: DOS editors added the ^Z, not because they needed it, but for backwards compatibility with DOS 1. it's like how all windows programs and editors write crlf line endings by default, despite that most windows programs read lf just fine. < 1584344529 317446 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: CP/M and DOS version 1, because DOS version 1 has CP/M's record-based file access. DOS 2 fixes this, adding unix-style open/close/read/write calls (NB. DOS 1 doesn't even have a close), and file descriptors that can point to things other than disk files, so you can redirect the stdout of programs. DOS 3 adds some more calls. < 1584344737 508943 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: like storing function return address a single byte on the stack, provided that there are no more than 256 call sites to the function after inlining? < 1584344857 695742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think that might be incompatible with return-oriented programming < 1584344871 615061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it requires you to track what functions are currently running < 1584345241 314125 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is record-based file access? < 1584345386 584271 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that return-oriented programming is usually unintended behavior < 1584345454 194231 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1584345483 674878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, do we want a Planet of the Hats comic strip list, in the sense of `*list ? < 1584345513 737974 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also seems like that would only be useful on old CPUs... it would be hell on branch predictors < 1584345683 603137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "why do I have 17 linux kernel images installed" => I don't delete the old ones either until the space on the one gigabyte sized boot gets low < 1584345778 319542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: in CP/M and DOS 1, can't just ask the kernel to read or write any number of bytes, instead you can only read a fixed size block, which corresponds to a block stored contiguously on the disk. as a consequence for this, the file size isn't stored in byte granularity either. < 1584345889 313984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was the old default until unix came along, and it would still make sense for regular files, though with a variable block size that the kernel decides for you, because why the heck would you need a buffer for regular files both in the kernel and in userspace? < 1584345892 203678 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the block size, and is it the same for every file? < 1584345899 70820 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1584345904 440758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: on CP/M and DOS 1, they are the same < 1584345923 809354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days, it's only the same on one file system, might vary after that < 1584345926 196800 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ^Z is used to indicate the actual end of the file within the block? < 1584345937 34968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then it was the same globally, because there was only one type of file system < 1584345941 710415 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1584345942 540497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: for text files, yes < 1584345952 92686 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :other files like executables can have any format the programs handle < 1584345969 695695 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a lot of sense for floppy drives - the only writable sections are blocks < 1584345976 861732 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why ^Z < 1584345986 276828 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the early days of DOS and CP/M, that's all you really had < 1584345989 442766 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't ASCII have a C0 control code for end of file? is it ^Z? < 1584346022 606946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that was discussed earlier in chat, we don't know why ^Z but it would be stupid to change it now < 1584346031 104566 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of tragic how the C0 control codes, most of which are never used, occupy prime 1-byte real estate in UTF-8 < 1584346034 91442 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :c'est la vie < 1584346037 38066 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584346064 796252 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584346099 345368 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything >0x7f is undefined in ascii, right? < 1584346113 457495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: that hasn't changed, even these days hard disks and SSDs are written in blocks. in fact, with hard disks having controllers built onto them, you can't even do anything about it, whereas back in the old days you had some control over the format of your floppies. < 1584346132 112735 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ASCII control code for end of file isn't ^Z; that is due to CP/M, not ASCII. < 1584346143 292045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: although file systems add an abstraction layer over that, where a logical block for storing files can be larger than the physical sectors < 1584346155 789245 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the even more obscure C1 codes occupy 1-byte real estate in ISO 8859, but the 8-bit Windows code pages put printing characters there instead) < 1584346172 818288 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know that, but given the age and early status of the OSs, an there were no real alternatives to floppies... < 1584346176 309556 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: correct. ASCII is a 7-bit code < 1584346199 953877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: sure there were, they were casettes, only those are much less reliable than floppy disks < 1584346213 361847 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how can you have C0/C1 codes? that's 8 bits < 1584346226 390770 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically, sure < 1584346228 414040 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C0 and C1 are not meant to be hex numbers here < 1584346232 720388 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1584346232 971434 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just called that for some reason < 1584346233 225256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ROM cartridges of course, which are _more_ reliable than floppy disks, but you can only write them in huge production runs < 1584346252 770836 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is currently in the middle of a tape backup
< 1584346265 290963 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C0 codes are 00-1F hex and C1 codes are 80-9F < 1584346284 331950 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes < 1584346293 344383 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ASCII defined 32 control characters, plus a necessary extra one for the all-1 DEL character (needed to punch out all the holes on a paper tape and erase it). < 1584346294 989724 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:36: error: parse error on input ‘,’ < 1584346303 399494 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! so that's why DEL is 0x7F < 1584346305 175037 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1584346313 307602 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's because of paper tape < 1584346316 716011 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :always wondered why they put it at the end < 1584346320 303506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: and poor \x7F would be an orphan out of blocks if it weren't for that it used to be one of the more useful control characters for 7-bit paper tape < 1584346334 351234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you were faster < 1584346435 214593 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1584346572 136115 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people (such as myself) still use ASCII, though. < 1584346622 581191 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you get my BELs? < 1584346670 989842 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although it only displayed them because my IRC client filters control codes < 1584346711 393270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't, nor are they in the logs < 1584346753 483285 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rice-\a\a-a-roni, the san francisco treat" < 1584346797 111532 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are in the logs. (However, maybe you are looking at a different file than I am looking at.) < 1584346804 235216 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :who posted BELs >:( < 1584346805 520860 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I meant my local logs < 1584346812 310569 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yells at Hooloovo0
< 1584346820 861586 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1584346829 947672 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: O, OK. < 1584346866 96321 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: a lot of older IRC clients (NOT mine, i'm just messing with you) will actually cause the terminal "bell" (usually a beep) to go off if one is sent in a channel < 1584346869 921888 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION  BELs at moony 
< 1584346870 988193 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :be careful :P < 1584346876 605053 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ceci n'est pas une ␇ < 1584346887 125884 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know < 1584346919 525780 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've IRC'd from a vax with an appropriately-aged terminal < 1584346930 192859 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a good amount of bells < 1584346946 982577 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently unicode fucks it up a lot < 1584346951 130755 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1584346955 745801 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION may be getting a chance to remote into a VAX tonight, on that note. Moony is happy.
< 1584346956 137498 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have a mechanical bell < 1584346983 953738 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :my terminal doesn't < 1584346995 272854 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know a couple people with ASR33s... < 1584347094 572198 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if I can figure out how to make BEL make asterisk do a single ring... < 1584347138 850564 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's currently 3 physical bells on my desk, and one not far < 1584347248 411885 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1584347250 984065 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be a fun hack < 1584347256 498431 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you collect old phones or something? < 1584347273 220620 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1584347286 674727 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a couple channel banks < 1584347303 908421 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been looking for a decent non-asterisk pbx < 1584347347 977691 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more into phone systems, but it's hard to be into that without also collecting phones < 1584347445 824029 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1584347450 772300 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584347472 620547 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you make a telephone with a bell? < 1584347495 108593 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1584347495 180565 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584347512 80962 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, bell made telephones with bells < 1584347530 393866 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Hooloovo0 < 1584347533 170701 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0 is a calculator brain surgeon. < 1584347541 387729 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1584347546 757252 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584347608 242658 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1584347634 373960 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://beatriceco.com/bti/porticus/bell/telephones-princess.html if you're unfamiliar with the Bell System < 1584347692 37959 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1584347704 888346 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a rotary phone that i bought at a hamfest < 1584347711 202794 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took it apart and then didn't do anything with it :/ < 1584347713 75719 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel kinda bad < 1584347724 63420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could give the parts to someone who wants them < 1584347738 937173 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was supposed to be another hamfest on Saturday, but it got cancelled :/ < 1584347747 853337 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took apart a working IBM PC keyboard when I was (much) younger. Still regret it, perfectly good keyboard ): < 1584347749 646570 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as did the big Hamvention in Ohio in may < 1584347763 530255 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel taking things apart is virtuous, though < 1584347767 811145 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general < 1584347774 108425 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, taking things apart is good < 1584347781 242049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you learn something < 1584347798 952435 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a piece of electronics gets taken apart, it died a good death < 1584347799 837780 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1584347806 462653 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I learned was that the keyboard controller was a Zilog made one < 1584347814 699896 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1584347833 479579 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Was probably a clone's keyboard? I forget, parts are long gone) < 1584347850 681500 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a couple rotary dials sitting around in a box < 1584347859 432681 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :came from the junk store < 1584347872 408570 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of wish they just sold the phones... < 1584348152 626605 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might suggest to make a telephone out of those parts, then. < 1584348316 44586 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had time for that < 1584349487 716854 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1584350085 330012 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1584350226 984483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70300&oldid=68572 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+5) 10Googled what is to be stack-oriented paradigm. < 1584352394 365852 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1584352971 908020 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1584353383 950868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how many underscores would this count in your scale: " I've IRC'd from a vax with an appropriately-aged terminal" < 1584353398 697875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to calibrate that scale, even though I'm not using underscores that way myself < 1584353413 275484 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584353483 922241 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" there's currently 3 physical bells on my desk, and one not far" => there are three in my drawer, but they're not electric, they're tiny decorational cowbell style bells that you can only ring by hand. plus there's a wind bell hung next to me at the bookshelf, also ringable by hand only. < 1584353528 956279 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three on my desk are all in telephones, as is the other < 1584353554 595162 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can also ring the one in the kitchen < 1584353593 242578 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION only has one desk drawer, and it's filled with calculators
< 1584353605 227165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, I have an electronic doorbell, an electronic bell in my home phone, and an electronic bell in the door phone < 1584353609 476671 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I have too many calculators that thy don't all fit < 1584353610 313913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it depends on who owns the vax; if you don't have admin rights there and are using telnet or something, then 2-3; if you can install your own IRC clients on it, probably only 1-1½ < 1584353641 763236 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I installed my own IRC client < 1584353650 108995 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drive as I got it was useless < 1584353661 31164 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the drive worked! < 1584353681 409850 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(had useless stuff on it, not broken) < 1584353716 381276 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :installing 4.3bsd isn't too trivial when you don't have a tape drive < 1584353939 516720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the best way to think of it is that it's a scale based on how much you hate your setup, which means that an underscore-laden setup only happens if you have no real ability to change it (otherwise, you would have changed it rather than using a setup you hate) < 1584353941 138489 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hello > 1584354045 974239 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70301 5* 03Ais523 5* (+4759) 10now that I'm sure this can be implemented in The Waterfall Model (I ran some compiled programs against a simulation in a spreadsheet and compared the internal states), it's worth adding to the wiki < 1584354049 121848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1584354052 232546 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm imagining you signing in as b_____jonas < 1584354054 888185 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1584354062 898879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, The Waterfall Model is TC < 1584354069 181830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I meant, implemented with a small program > 1584354097 332767 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70302&oldid=70278 5* 03Ais523 5* (+18) 10/* S */ +[[Spiral Rise]] < 1584354107 273620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I don't use that scale. if I sign in as b_jonas_ or wib_jonas_, it's only because the main nick is still connected. < 1584354115 107246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even b_jonas__ means only that. > 1584354115 608051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70303&oldid=67193 5* 03Ais523 5* (+17) 10+[[Spiral Rise]] < 1584354120 886010 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... use completely different nicks < 1584354121 519072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b_jonas-2 < 1584354131 709067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement < 1584354132 131989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use nc_jonas and such things for stupid setups < 1584354135 352604 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1584354149 595930 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think atriq is currently set as my fallback, which is rot13 of approximately my initials) < 1584354270 939629 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use variations of the main one < 1584354280 817505 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoolootwo, Hooloo42 < 1584354282 890715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, something I noticed recently: a program in The Waterfall Model with n non-halt waterclocks can be compiled into a FRACTRAN program with N+1 fractions < 1584354348 412122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is to use a prime for each waterclock (including halting waterclocks), then multiply together all the primes but one in order to implement a zeroing trigger < 1584354396 7595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if none of those fractions can run, a final fraction does the steady decrement < 1584354421 645872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :halting waterclocks aren't given fractions, but are still given primes, so if one of them zeroes, none of the fractions can run because their prime is multiplied into every denominator < 1584354468 450999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should post that on the Waterfall talk page < 1584354519 811512 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, very cool! > 1584354525 360287 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:The Waterfall Model14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70304&oldid=58808 5* 03Ais523 5* (+863) 10/* Relationship to Fractran */ new section < 1584354678 913184 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584354708 279291 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been logged as b_jonas and w?b_jonas simultaneously for a very long time < 1584354853 801129 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :my vax is unfortunately not with me right now < 1584354865 889165 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, might be able to get my 486 box in here < 1584355023 362456 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584355394 372496 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584355420 841211 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584355428 341187 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Gentoo Linux (stable) • CPU: 486 DX/4-WB (0MHz) • Memory: 45.4 MiB Total (20.4 MiB Free) • Storage: 208.0 kB / 96.6 MB (96.4 MB Free) • Uptime: 2d 9h 49m 32s < 1584355496 713164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a surprisingly empty disk < 1584355508 786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have just a kernel and an IRC client and nothing else? < 1584355518 418417 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's netbooted < 1584355534 498308 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mounting an nfs? < 1584355557 226381 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure hexchat's sysinfo script doesn't know how to handle that < 1584355560 205586 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, hnfs < 1584355564 320447 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nfs, even > 1584356063 20258 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70305&oldid=70301 5* 03Ais523 5* (+3664) 10this is almost certainly TC, but I guess that technically, I haven't proven it < 1584356465 102710 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, where do I change the font antialiasing settings on windows 10? < 1584356482 302037 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this windows is set to English and yet I can't find the fucking setting < 1584356557 962562 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically I never proved Burro is TC either. That's on my TODO list for this year sometime. < 1584356567 713626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: does searching for "ClearType" in the various control panels help? < 1584356588 21625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can take a while to find all the settings programs the one you can get at by right-clicking the start menu is fairly comprehensive though < 1584356634 599951 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah yes, now it worked. I typed it to the control panel search first, and it didn't find anything. now I typed it to the Settings, and it did find the option, and opened a control panel app. wtf. < 1584356783 276903 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, searching apps in the start menu for "ClearType" finds it too, that's where I should have started < 1584356809 581011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if "antialiasing" also works, or whether you have to use the marketing name < 1584356886 364304 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"antialiasing" doesn't, but there are probably other keywords that find it < 1584357003 225606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1584357006 307045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"subpixel rendeering" < 1584357011 513528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"rendering" < 1584357017 922716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that works either, but it's a more accurate name > 1584357044 507271 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spiral Rise14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70306&oldid=70305 5* 03Ais523 5* (+2325) 10comparison with High Rise < 1584357095 839706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver42 (if you're logreading), and anyone else interested: I'm now pretty much convinced that 6 waterclocks + 1 halt waterclock (which can of course flood) is enough to create a UTM in The Waterfall Model > 1584357253 718201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70307&oldid=70205 5* 03Ais523 5* (+543) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ see [[Spiral Rise]], which can be implemented with a 6+1-waterclock model and is almost certainly TC < 1584357321 116302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :corollary: Fractran is almost certainly TC with 6 fractions, although the size of the fractions is probably going to be astronomical < 1584357486 650017 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The coronavirus liability cascade has reached our boss, so he told us to work from home. This just two workdays after we could have started to work more efficiently in the office, because all the interns who normally come in only a few days a week can now work full-time since universities are closed, and this office happens to have few parents who < 1584357487 99531 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to stay home because schools are closed. < 1584357528 820597 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm setting up the work notebook for use at home. The monitor and lighting conditions are better there, but I have to change the ClearType settings, and possibly also the gamma setting. < 1584357585 355460 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad I brought the work mouse home. It's worse than my home mouse, but my home mouse is for PS/2 port, and the notebook doesn't have a PS/2 port. < 1584357608 372552 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'll have to check which direction passive converters work, I think I have two in my drawer < 1584357652 533673 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I remembered right, the passive converters let newer USB mouse to plug into PS/2 ports. That doesn't help me. < 1584357664 106281 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1584357756 541857 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this results in the unprecedented state that I'm not only connected as b_jonas and wib_jonas at the same time, but also they are NATed to the same public IP address. < 1584359334 235073 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584359402 894407 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1584359412 538144 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1584360060 32780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1584360460 202976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70308&oldid=70254 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+1905) 10/* Implementations */ I, Chris Pressey, the author of this here implementation of Deadfish, do hereby huck it into the public domain > 1584360532 970828 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70309&oldid=70308 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+29) 10/* Robin */ nowiki < 1584360716 930304 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice, I got academic spam from "head chief" at publisher called "International Organization of Science Research" > 1584361484 834742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70310&oldid=70309 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+18) 10Make link point to WayBack Machine. Apparently the cafe closed sometime in 2015 or 2016. < 1584362200 726901 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric > 1584365429 14039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70311&oldid=70310 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+464) 10I, Chris Pressey, who done authored this Deadfish interpreter, hereby hurl it into the public domain. < 1584365594 671151 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subpixel reindeering is what Santa uses to get around the world so fast. Not sure how. < 1584365691 127609 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also working from home, incidentally. Kind of interesting, after having just swapped the Linux laptop to a ChromeOS tablet (rationale: "I only ever use this for browsing on work travel, anyway, not for real work"), which has a total of two USB-C ports, and that's it for holes in it. < 1584365956 933991 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one doesn't have a DVI port either, but I had the sense to bring the HDMI cable from work < 1584365998 411772 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, these fans need to be tuned, my home computer and the work computer are giving noise in disharmony. < 1584366015 308999 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly I should just replace my home computer with a not so loud computer) < 1584366408 177882 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did buy one of those USB-C dongle things (2x USB-A 3.0, 1x USB-A 2.0, HDMI, Ethernet, SD/micro-SD, DC pass-through from a USB-C charger) "on the off chance I'll need to hook up the monitor and keyboard, though that's not very likely, I don't usually work from home", which turned out to be a good idea. < 1584366462 213196 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this notebook has a docking station, but it still has very few ports < 1584366473 642454 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no DVI in particular < 1584366506 496735 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor a microphone port < 1584366597 408090 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly useless < 1584367200 994355 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1195 < 1584367211 699934 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1195: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1584367252 107018 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW all OOTS books are on 50% discount until later today wih coupon "washyourhands" < 1584367275 92854 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: does that discount the shipping too? < 1584367280 941721 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the shipping is the expensive part < 1584367302 27387 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, just the e-book versions < 1584367315 935970 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1584367326 438275 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that can be helpful, let me check < 1584367489 202051 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: that would actually gives an almost acceptible price for the e-books. I'll have to consider this quickly. < 1584368244 592426 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, these fans need to be tuned, my home computer and the work computer are giving noise in disharmony. => do you have a microwave? It could alleviate the situation. Or maybe a vacuum. Or maybe both, this could end up as a neat seventh chord < 1584368326 95726 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I have a microwave in the kitchen, yes, and I have a vacuum cleaner too < 1584368334 229184 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a washing machine and a dishwasher < 1584368344 144012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :now bring them all in one room, yes, and a machine too < 1584368348 332167 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a gas oven < 1584368353 765820 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I don’t know how dishwashers sound < 1584368382 500951 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably a gas oven would be almost silent < 1584368392 537447 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be hard, because the oven absolutely can't be moved, and the dishwasher and the washing machine at least need to be connected to water and drain pipes while under operation < 1584368442 670506 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmhmhmhm then you need to place a couple microphones in there and… hm too time-costly < 1584368444 133335 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd have to move the washing machine into the kitchen, which would need extra plumbing parts, and I'd really rather not do the installation myself < 1584368458 100009 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking the computers there wouldn't be too difficult at least < 1584368477 533419 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah at least you could take a vacuum with you < 1584368483 971669 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need microphones, I can just open the doors < 1584368488 68932 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this house isn't *that* big < 1584368539 916413 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the kitchen doesn't have a floor drain, and the floor is wooden, so running a washing machine there would be impractical < 1584368583 573070 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree < 1584368619 29868 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, these computers can make a variety of noises other than the fan < 1584368645 98723 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are speakers, three sets of them (one that I normally use for the computer, one built into the monitor, and one built into the work laptop), plus hard disks < 1584368676 657808 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even a chasis fan in the home computer, which I've disabled long ago, but I can reenable it easily < 1584368686 383026 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas a hard disk is hard to reason with < 1584369924 826787 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the Origins of PCs is free with the coupon I believe < 1584370013 772827 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: I already have Origins and Darkness and Good Deeds. I'd probably buy book 4 and 3 next. < 1584370023 402566 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sad that book 6 still isn't listed in https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html < 1584370036 141049 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to find a link to it from the news archive or the forum if you want to buy it < 1584370135 426294 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or find it linked on Gumroad from the other books < 1584370214 887133 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but half price for book 4 is still 2600 forints for a book that contains mostly the same strips as the web, so I'll skip for now < 1584373522 945776 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, I don't like that the kernels accumulate like that, especially because removing them with aptitude takes quadratic time. There must be a workaround for that. < 1584373793 234616 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: e.g. http://paste.debian.net/1135151/ < 1584373908 944871 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they don't seem to accumulate just from debian for me, at least not to the amount you mention. debian only keeps one from each abi compat version, which is a level below the kernel version number but above the actual debian package version number, and supposedly increments only when the abi becomes incompatible between kernel and modules < 1584373952 367632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I'm un debian unstable, which has many more kernels (and a good reason to keep *some* around. I just wish it wasn't every single one, ever) < 1584373961 167145 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas they often do kernel updates within an abi version, and I usually copy those kernels to my boot partition now (but only because of this weird setup; and I don't copy the modules) < 1584373967 757368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm *running < 1584373968 272804 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, debian unstable. that's different < 1584373979 309858 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't run unstable, and wouldn't run it < 1584374017 753883 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes quadratic time to remove them? ouch < 1584374051 300917 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no surprise that debian unstable has more kernel versions < 1584374304 872403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The obvious improvement here would be to not regenerate the initrd after every single purge. Not sure how to achieve that. < 1584374389 268023 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that even become quadratic? < 1584374421 603907 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe it regenerates the initrd with the current latest kernel version's modules every purge, but that's just linear, < 1584374439 572239 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus it could regenerate the boot loader config file after every purge, which is technically quadratic but with a very small constant factor < 1584374506 884611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: because for some inexplicable reason, locating each of these images takes non-negligible time. < 1584374524 999026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the initrd generation becomes noticably slower with more kernel images < 1584374563 784674 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, out of curiosity, are you running debian unstable as a hobby for home, or for some job in sysadmin or similar capacity? < 1584374604 425240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is at home. I wouldn't do it for servers. I would probably do it for my own software development needs if allowed. < 1584374634 294916 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on live servers, sure, but are you doing it to be able to prepare for future system problems at work? < 1584374641 646000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a matter of laziness really... debian unstable is much better at having the latest versions of compilers and the like. < 1584374647 435627 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking more "for home" rather than "at home", < 1584374660 967913 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1584374683 568674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is surprisingly stable, given the name. < 1584374728 817476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make no mistake, I've seen it break badly... happens once, maybe twice a year, and *most* of the time it's easy to fix. < 1584374765 577338 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but I prefer that to happen not at unpredictable times, but at the times when I decide to upgrade to the latest stable version and spend days setting it up and debugging problems < 1584374777 172274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last such annoyance was firefox relying on sqllite interna. < 1584374796 29952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do automatic updates anyway. < 1584374802 747499 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for the software where I particularly care about having the latest version, which could be compilers, or gimp 2.10, or whatever, they're usually easy to install < 1584374811 355768 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you're not running a too old stable version < 1584374850 445380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, obviously this is not any kind of advice. For me, Debian unstable hits the sweet spot between stability and bleeding edge better than debian stable. < 1584374881 350380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that may change. < 1584374900 251321 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I don't do automatic updates either, I just put the security updates on occasionally, but those rarely break anything but firefox (which is its own sort of problem, debian basically doesn't have the resources to follow its changes), whereas for unstable you can't install just the security updates every month < 1584374910 707585 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it can change < 1584374986 750869 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean the above for my home machine; the work windows machine does run automatic updates) < 1584375000 632673 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also... I ran Gentoo for several years. So compared to that, Debian unstable is MUCH more convenient. < 1584375028 583694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can't justify Gentoo anymore except as a learning experience into how software is built and how many things can go wrong in the process.) < 1584375038 136772 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, IOCCC submissions have ended < 1584375049 669418 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I ran Gentoo too, but that was when I was young and had time for that sort of nonsense < 1584375057 679176 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't know that I should be running debian > 1584375059 358181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TTTTTTTT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70312 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+853) 10Created page with "'''TTTTTTTT''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Etymology== This language got its name from its longest keyword, which is also the only character in its ke..." < 1584375062 311957 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I have one or two good stories to tell. < 1584375104 332056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the point where I removed libacl because I wasn't using access control lists... and core-utils (uh, what's the old name of that again?) broke. < 1584375108 625194 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually I managed to break the gentoo system too much, at which point I tried ubuntu for a few weeks, decided it wasn't for me and purged it without a backup, installed debian, and I've been running debian ever since (though multiple different installations of debian) < 1584375112 761463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ran Gentoo when I got an amd64 machine and Debian still didn't have good support for it < 1584375120 296177 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was in 2004 < 1584375128 62995 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I was young and had time for that sort of nonsense < 1584375130 961068 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Debian unsatiable ) < 1584375176 419489 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yeah I basically stopped using Gentoo when I finally got a job. :P < 1584375184 438293 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.9.97.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :…I need to try Debian in a virtual machine probably… > 1584375347 843539 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70313&oldid=70264 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10/* "Hello" program */ < 1584375455 480159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Another related compromise would be Ubuntu (basically minus all the Ubuntu specific UI crap), which is sourced mainly from Debian unstable. > 1584375691 585263 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TTTTTTTT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70314&oldid=70312 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+381) 10 > 1584375726 432184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Infinite Goto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70315&oldid=70299 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+276) 10/* Syntax */ clearing up Line 27 > 1584375764 711265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Infinite Goto14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70316&oldid=70315 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+48) 10/* Resources */ < 1584375962 610863 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1584376091 547259 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, it's been lots of years since I tried ubuntu, and it's changed during those years, so I can respectfully say that I'll consider that option and get back to them, and then never actually get back to them < 1584376296 871100 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1584376367 94617 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use FreeBSD, back in the day. These days I use Ubuntu. < 1584376410 626894 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sold out and switched to windows < 1584376522 995382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could you < 1584376540 252407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you use it through anything other than the wsl < 1584376664 288863 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Ubuntu, although without the desktop environment and window manager that was initially installed. < 1584378975 891004 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pptahpryaxhgtgqz JOIN :#esoteric < 1584379062 206501 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1584379746 540441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah that's basically what I meant ;) < 1584379773 537198 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1584379810 745578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Why FreeBSD and not OpenBSD or NetBSD? ;-) (No, I never had a dog in that fight. I don't even really know what the fight was about... just that there was one.) < 1584379858 561405 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I use the i3 window manager, with no desktop environment. Programs should not usually be written to require a desktop environment; they should work without it, even if without a desktop environment may require some command-line options to be used which are not otherwise used.) < 1584379923 837586 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is lamentable... the latest development on that front is that certain programs have stopped to respect their working directory. < 1584379995 478152 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of GTK, I think. So if I start inkscape in a subdirectory and try to open a file I'll be in my home directory. Meh. < 1584380065 296047 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't care too much about them respecting the wd, but the gtk file dialogs are much worse than the windows ones, into which you can just paste a filename or a file from explorer < 1584380068 863147 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I actually like NetBSD better, from an aesthetic point of view, but FreeBSD has more users and a more pragmatic outlook, so it's the easier choice. < 1584380083 154044 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an area where windows manages to "just work" better < 1584380194 757222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. I like shells. I use working directories as contexts for projects. It's sad to see software add obstacles to that process, just because most users use visual desktop enviroments to manage their files. < 1584380244 186769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not terrible, I complain and cope. < 1584380300 606895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one big reason is that windows is less affected by a proliferation of toolkit libraries. < 1584380318 875167 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it's mainly Qt and GTK these days.) < 1584380459 400235 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the Windows file dialog does work better tha GTK, although I would think is OK to just a simple text entry. < 1584380546 284880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Agatha is such a terrbible mad scientist. < 1584380546 346290 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1584380659 816310 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Agatha does also have to be a sovereign < 1584380675 294935 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which requires... diplomacy < 1584380685 796052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agatha? Krosp, yes. Agatha... hmm. < 1584380723 63861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still having second thoughts, how does she stand it? It's so inefficient. < 1584381034 558309 :Mandarina!~mandarina@2.red-83-63-246.staticip.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1584381133 233210 :Mandarina!~mandarina@2.red-83-63-246.staticip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Quit: � IRcap � 8.7 � < 1584381602 609581 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1584381756 626749 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do audio tapes support index marks like VHS does? As far as I know, it doesn't, although I would think it would be a useful thing to have (or to fake it somehow). < 1584382561 65664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"carnivorous" is an interesting word these days... needed two attempts to read it correctly :) < 1584382585 304706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: weren't there some fancy tape recorders that could scan the tape for silence? < 1584382780 119512 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's how it worked when doing it manually anyway... wait for interruptions inbetween all the squeaking.) < 1584383022 907481 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there is; I don't know. I think that there are four tracks (two on each side), so possibly one track could be used for index. < 1584383228 353572 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584383228 473851 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584383251 112692 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584383341 718210 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1584383745 762207 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584385296 785404 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1584385748 588364 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3 < 1584385756 117042 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584386053 244647 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, but for resource reasons I only want one instance of gimp or other GUI programs (sometimes two instances or firefox), and not restart them every time, so the working directory isn't too useful as a context for them. < 1584386092 675834 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: for audio tapes, you just write the index onto a carboard slip that you put into the casette holder < 1584386203 196389 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1584386220 220599 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1584387888 261921 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1584388218 668457 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Yes, if you use the tape counter for this purpose, I suppose. < 1584388862 555026 :wib_jonas!b03f0eb2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.14.178 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584392554 709353 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1584392607 716134 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1584392777 378145 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can be disabled in Firefox? I am fine with , but I don't like . < 1584393618 855863 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rosewater wrote about themes in Magic: the Gathering, including color, type, subtype, supertype, zone, and other possibilities. < 1584393654 365004 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought, make the zone theme based on stack, ante, and command zone. < 1584395364 587028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever happened to the battlefield and phasing < 1584395413 2221 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phasing is no longer a separate zone than the battlefield, although that can be a theme too I suppose < 1584395866 672045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to draw a tiny bitmap font where characters are 6 pixels high. so now I have to research which accented letters languages use, because I have to make some of the following characters look identical: a-grave, a-acute, a-circumflex, a-diaresis, a-tilde, a-brevis, a-macron, a-dotabove. < 1584395894 37764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided early that o-circumflex and o-doubleacute can look the same, that's the easy part. < 1584395922 490123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think this font will be usable for vietnamese, < 1584395991 251039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be better if the same accent looks the same on most vowels < 1584396219 659650 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have to be concerned with french/welsh that distinguishes e-acute, e-grave, e-circumflex, e-diaresis; portugese which distinguishes a-acute, a-grave, a-circumflex, a-tilde; romanian that distinguishes a-brevis from a-circumflex; swedish/finnish which distinguishes a-umlaut from a-ring; icelandic that distinguishes o-acute from o-diaresis; < 1584396464 916472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as some romanizations of non-latin scripts, in particular the ISO 9 transcription of russian which distinguishes e-circumflex from e-diaresis (ok that's not a new constraint); I can probably give up on chinese pinyin transcription just as on vietnamese; what else am I forgetting? < 1584396730 143483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, also czech distinguishes u-acute from u-ring. < 1584396902 140131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll do the following: grave is left pixel, acute is right pixel, umlaut/diaresis is left and right pixels, circumflex or double acute is middle and right pixel, tilde is left and middle pixel, macron is left and middle and right pixels, ring or brevis or middle dot is middle pixel alone, and I'll figure out what to do with the caron later, it has to be distinct from the middle dot and the acute < 1584396908 643698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1584396957 87375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that won't work, darn it < 1584396974 619160 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the i with brevis has to differ from the i < 1584397004 306973 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for latin < 1584397053 874652 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@23.249.35.52 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1584397117 865701 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, brevis as the middle dot is too mnemonic to give up. I might just special case the i with brevis < 1584397537 496603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally I should have a big table prepared for this that shows what letters each language and writing system that I commonly encounter use < 1584397797 708602 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also thought a theme based on a supertype, could be world, and you can do more than what other sets have previously done, such as adding death triggers, world cards other than global enchantments, effects that add or remove the world supertype, that suppress the world rule temporarily, count world cards in some zone, etc. < 1584397901 839923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually have such a table for cyrillic, with five languages using cyrillic script, the serbian latin transcription, and the ISO 9 transcription (these two agree on every letter I think, but note that romanizations of ukranian differ, because і vs и vs ы) < 1584398183 229752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can probably just use similar diacritics on most consonants: acute is right pixel, circumflex is middle and right pixels, dot above is middle pixel, and I think I'll mostly mark a caron with the left and middle pixel, except I'll have to figure out what to do with l/L/t/T with diacritics, those are ugly not only because there are so many diacritics that apply, but even the base letters are hard to < 1584398189 498637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :draw properly in small sizes and distinguishable from each other and i and c > 1584398410 214673 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Self-modifying Turing machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70317 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+30214) 10+[[Self-modifying Turing machine]] > 1584398416 737119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70318&oldid=70302 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+36) 10+[[Self-modifying Turing machine]] > 1584398421 95342 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70319&oldid=70279 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+36) 10+[[Self-modifying Turing machine]] > 1584398693 75886 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Self-modifying Turing machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70320&oldid=70317 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+5) 10 < 1584399068 112672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, the constraint is that this font should be somewhat readable to others, not just to me who knows what the font has, although of course my aesthetic decisions matter more < 1584400468 720917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584401725 718624 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1584402550 894092 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1584402713 819556 :MTGBusyBeaver42!343d7f9b@ec2-52-61-127-155.us-gov-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1584402725 298988 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1584402729 47776 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1584402954 550316 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pptahpryaxhgtgqz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity