< 1586218935 372494 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I like the idea of the ability counter which allows it to band with other creatures that also have that counter. (Tokens will not work so well in this case.) > 1586219657 751742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Minimal operation language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70676&oldid=70660 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+231) 10/* Clarification */ > 1586219767 173469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Minimal operation language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70677&oldid=70672 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+31) 10/* Gotos */ I see why you were cobfused > 1586219870 370924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Minimal operation language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70678&oldid=70676 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+38) 10 > 1586220034 662299 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70679&oldid=70581 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+67) 10 > 1586220229 665081 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70680&oldid=70679 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10 < 1586220259 167020 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds > 1586220432 773788 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brains14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70681&oldid=24741 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+39) 10fixed link > 1586220651 371430 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainstack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70682&oldid=69681 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586222129 990391 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586222338 989042 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ztcjhqkktgaxjqjh QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1586223494 166851 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Oatmealine 5* 10New user account < 1586224271 984917 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586225586 425631 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586225841 841714 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, the axiom of choice sucks. < 1586225949 33478 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, equating cardinality with size. < 1586226025 144915 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :We all know that R has a greater cardinality than N. But I don't think we should define "bigger" as "having a greater cardinality", and so I don't think we should necessarily consider R to be *bigger* than N. < 1586227305 912438 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then how should you define "bigger"? < 1586227995 26050 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think "bigger" necessarily needs to mean anything. < 1586228055 877865 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1586228062 943821 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though of course, from a practical standpoint, it's *useful* to use the word "bigger" to mean "having a greater cardinality". < 1586228112 564972 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I thought. < 1586228179 806221 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-elqbgkwbobftpxig PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like it's useful to use the word "open" to mean "containing a neighborhood around every point". < 1586228694 378641 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1586229294 587205 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Folders14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70683&oldid=70673 5* 03Rottytooth 5* (+0) 10type correction > 1586231417 237639 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Softengy 5* 10New user account > 1586231759 877458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70684&oldid=70651 5* 03Softengy 5* (+176) 10 < 1586233531 89620 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) > 1586233920 142174 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70685&oldid=68845 5* 03Softengy 5* (+237) 10 > 1586234510 493399 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ELIP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70686&oldid=24473 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+30) 10Added category > 1586234552 966263 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ELIP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70687&oldid=70686 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+1) 10Fixed category > 1586234604 134426 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ELIP/Unlambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70688&oldid=24425 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+30) 10Added category > 1586235950 93573 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03DomJob 5* 10New user account > 1586237177 136298 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70689&oldid=70684 5* 03DomJob 5* (+249) 10 > 1586237184 634558 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70690&oldid=66763 5* 03DomJob 5* (+286) 10Added an algorithm for x or y > 1586238960 506453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70691&oldid=70690 5* 03Int-e 5* (+45) 10/* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ golfing > 1586239020 485457 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70692&oldid=70691 5* 03Int-e 5* (-1) 10/* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ match indentation < 1586239270 7970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird page, that < 1586239310 15721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :way too many different styles of commenting the code < 1586239409 131927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's a convention for temporary location introduced at the very top, that resolves some of the confusion. < 1586241076 888071 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the generalized rule gives no TODO's up to 31, 6 for 32 (of which 4 are handled by another rule), and only 3 for 33 < 1586241698 158279 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only 15 on 34 < 1586241740 594479 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the 5*2^16+6 one < 1586241783 18468 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :largest non-TODO at 34 is 27380 < 1586243041 306778 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586243738 735729 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :starts swapping at 35 after finding 12 TODOs < 1586243818 794763 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.0.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1586243876 30035 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586244123 336943 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586244236 554236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: impressive. I wonder how far this can push the halting probability. < 1586244609 385669 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :still focussing on BB for now, which is less arbitrary than blc halting probability (which depends on my IO conventions) < 1586244840 863015 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you check the generalization in BB.txt ? < 1586245181 521926 :laerlingsap!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerlingsap JOIN :#esoteric < 1586245225 208390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will get around to it. < 1586245331 973470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am tinkering more on the AIT side of things though... I've decided I don't like the KP definition all that much, because programs can cheat too easily (looking ahead on the input) and once you enhance the universal machine to prevent that, it can actually compute the tail itself. < 1586245463 114758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(KP is the definition where programs are supposed to produce pairs where o is the result and xs is the unconsumed input; my tinkering basically drops the xs part.) < 1586246082 112620 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :flawful < 1586246103 995133 :flawful!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :izalove < 1586246128 316122 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :iza < 1586246157 417205 :iza!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :izakitten < 1586246163 528002 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought programs couldn't cheat < 1586246190 754618 :izakitten!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera NICK :izabera < 1586246294 391902 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they can never apply the z in U(p:z) < 1586246343 854921 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is dropping the xs part different from using KS ? < 1586246364 273361 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no input end marker, ok < 1586246571 443477 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1586246608 172383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the end of input is determined by the last cons (if any) that is forced during evaluation evaluation to normal form. < 1586246681 997021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually fairly pleasant to define (much in contrast to Chaitin's universal machine, which I find quite crazy) if you use open lists with nil = omega (ensuring the absence of a normal form when the tail is inspected by the program). < 1586246746 813664 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586246843 422310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Chaitin's machine (from his thesis/book, chapter 6) evaluates all prefixes and suffixes together with the given program and takes the result of the first one to terminate... in order to ensure prefix-free programs. Which makes it awful to actually implement...) < 1586246861 385907 :laerlingsap!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerlingsap PART :#esoteric < 1586247017 160339 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, just the input, not the (lisp-ish) program itself. But that's bad enough, really. < 1586247048 804744 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586247089 807275 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1586247255 533539 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, chaitin's construction is a horrible hack < 1586247369 467040 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I reread that chapter last month, for the first time in 10 years I guess, and I finally got what that machine is doing.) < 1586247509 205057 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i reread the jot spec last night and finally got it < 1586247514 380847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, of course programs-with-inputs also define a Busy Beaver function. < 1586247541 237873 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the SKI translation in the article is pretty clunky though, i'm interested in minimal translations < 1586247576 894528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A Busy Beaver function for every flavor... oh well, that should not be a surprise; you have one for every model of computation that has a quantifiable program size.) < 1586247623 446853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just jot it down < 1586247840 171 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's somewhat interesting that leading 1s in a program are pointless < 1586247883 356677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like Iota/Jot, it's sacrificing too much for perceived minimality (compared to SK combinatory logic) < 1586247907 775452 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean jot is just meant to be a goedel numbering < 1586247985 984174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also sacrificing too much (for my taste) if your goal is to assign a program to every bit string. < 1586247990 615715 :laerling!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1586247993 885579 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1586248021 149295 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :other goedel numberings are even uglier < 1586248180 148101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so, what's the word you used, clunky. < 1586248398 935865 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the injection of SKI into jot is, the mapping from jot into the lambda calculus is very sleek < 1586248425 491528 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i certainly can't envisage a better one < 1586248431 489226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it is an amazing feat in some way... making {AB} -> 1{A}{B} work, in particular, is impressive (though it's intimately tied to the translations of K and S. But 5 bits for K and 8 for S is ridiculous. And if you don't stick to the fragment defined by {.} I honestly have no clue what programs mean. Neither [F] S K nor S (K [F]) really make much operational sense to me. < 1586248493 911309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use ordered pairs to encode binary trees like everybody else. < 1586248587 309891 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom__Hoover: Let me stress again that this is a matter of taste to me. There's nothing objectively wrong with Iota or Jot, I think. They're just ugly ;-) < 1586248641 867319 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm in perfect agreement with int-e :-) < 1586248676 255652 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be that we have similar taste... < 1586248911 394605 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but that's what gives jot its sexy air of mystery < 1586248946 288416 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the vast majority of programs aren't simple encodings of SKI expressions so what's going on there? < 1586249007 401456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect it's just a terrible mess of chaos. Not that I've ever stared into that abyss at any depth ;) < 1586249058 625331 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this all started when i wondered how to encode church lists of ascii text out of boredom with normal online 'translate your text to binary!' converters) < 1586249123 549224 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously {.} will give you a completely boring result < 1586249160 771595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I think we both like lambda calculus (and by extension, combinatory logic--I don't think either of us can program combinatory logic directly, but abstraction elimination does the trick without blowing programs up too much), and we both can be tracked down into golfing efforts (which favor concise encodings, obviously). < 1586249242 241153 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom__Hoover: If you find a way to navigate the swamp (yeah I'm changing analogies) that lies off the trodden path defined by {.}, I think you can really impress a few people :) < 1586249335 490463 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could see how far you get with a BB_jot < 1586249382 273112 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even measure the result size? < 1586249414 18935 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always the blc size:-) < 1586249491 535070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or bcl size, I guess < 1586249551 444462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess this is another source of ugliness... you can't do evaluation in the language that you write your programs in. < 1586249562 589485 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1586249581 318547 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's another issue, there are no clear reduction rules in terms of the 1/0 language < 1586249614 802647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom__Hoover: Anyway I don't want to discourage you from studying this beast. < 1586249668 144969 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll be impressed if i can find a concise encoding of 2 tbh < 1586249683 87140 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is just... 1, i'm p sure < 1586249735 3829 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's another snag which is that the majority of jot programs arent in 'normal form', i.e. the 1[A][B] construction is invalid for them < 1586249770 497350 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can get around that by padding it on the left with enough 1s, and i think the number required is in general significantly less than you get from {.} < 1586251598 950814 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586251703 767671 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1586251980 324357 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586252054 20422 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586252058 853603 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1586255430 489006 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586255618 348868 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586255922 977750 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586257585 148363 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1586258503 652023 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586258525 408438 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1586259692 850270 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Minimal operation language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70693&oldid=70678 5* 03A 5* (+147) 10Forgot to sign > 1586259908 344211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70694&oldid=70680 5* 03A 5* (+5001) 10 > 1586259933 617938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70695&oldid=70694 5* 03A 5* (-13) 10 < 1586260030 399567 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1586260093 304390 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.0.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: tromp: Phantom__Hoover: hm seems Jot enjoys a very interesting rule jot (f (unjot s)) = (jot f) s, how was it derived (don’t see it at Chris Barker’s page on it) and wasn’t that how Iota/Jot was constructed in the first place? < 1586260643 301400 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586261909 388242 :baidicoot!~baidicoot@cpc85742-newc19-2-0-cust179.16-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586262896 530287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot#Jot sketches a proof of that < 1586263027 574063 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.0.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: thanks, the more general form of that statement, with arbitrary w, helps < 1586269404 148971 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i checked all my TODOs for 34. so we can say that BB(34) = 5*2^16+6 = 327686 < 1586269464 882466 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :that cannot happen with TM BB; predicting a value far in advance of checking it:) < 1586269510 551564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, granularity. < 1586269524 619903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a 34 bit TM? :) < 1586269572 610570 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 4 state TM takes more than 34 bits to describe < 1586269581 724133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also up to this point the fairly naive filters (not counting the W or W2 criteria which are a bit more clever) have been embarrassingly effective. < 1586269627 514445 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :and BB(4) = 13 < 1586269634 645172 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :for TMs < 1586269641 530977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still haven't looked at the W2 thing, and I think it'll be a couple of days before I do... I really want to give this problem a bit of thought first.) < 1586269677 804943 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also some simplicity to BLC. < 1586269731 416309 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's simpler, more fine-grained, faster growing, and naturally expressed in bits. seems better in every respect... < 1586269803 156756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, on an abstract level, what makes programming feasible is code reusage... giving a piece of code a name, and using it by that name somewhere else. Lambda calculus basically turns that principle into an evaluation mechanism, using substitution to put code where it's used so it can be evaluated. So it's eminently programmable, which is in stark contrast to Turing Machines. < 1586269856 67429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So perhaps it's not completely surprising that the human understandable (\x. x x x x) 2 is also an actual good busy beaver. < 1586269893 423753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least once you discover the Church numeral accident that exponentiation is just application.) < 1586269974 909464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still think the main factor is the better granularity of measuring program size. < 1586270010 327949 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :bits beat states < 1586270282 473005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an analogue for http://oeis.org/A052200 (number of n-state 2-symbol TMs) modulo the obvious symmetries (permuting states, and I guess demanding that all states are reachable, at least in the graph given by the state transition diagram?) < 1586270379 194679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> log (20^8/24)/log 2 -- naive estimate < 1586270381 642497 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 29.990462258377743 < 1586270935 111475 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: So... if we count closed terms... we reach that number (20^8/24) at size 41... < 1586271792 143301 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal count is (4n+4)^2n for n state TMs < 1586272203 199256 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :4*2*log(4*4+4) = 34.6 < 1586272501 443211 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a straighforward encoding, you're use a whole number of bits per transition, and it would rise to 4*2*ceil(log(4*4+4)) = 40 < 1586272508 325885 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd use < 1586274120 328930 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1586274242 1736 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70696&oldid=70692 5* 03Softengy 5* (+59) 10Added improved x = x * x algorithm < 1586275469 629157 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting > 1586275856 844974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70697&oldid=70696 5* 03Softengy 5* (+1) 10Edit to work with x=0 and not require wrapping < 1586275953 267006 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1586275962 560488 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70698&oldid=70697 5* 03Softengy 5* (-6) 10/* x = x * x */ Fixed algorithm from incorrect previous edit < 1586277128 793113 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586278171 924778 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal > 1586279196 209796 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70699&oldid=70698 5* 03Softengy 5* (+367) 10/* x = x / y */ Added wrapping algorithm < 1586281762 693643 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i started enumerating all jot programs to find 2 but i gave up on trying it in web browser haskell > 1586283358 47704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70700&oldid=70685 5* 03Softengy 5* (+257) 10 > 1586283705 835062 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70701&oldid=70700 5* 03Softengy 5* (+228) 10Improved algorithm for x = x != y > 1586284111 10160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02CaneCode10]] to [[Cane Code]]: fix spacing < 1586284263 14129 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1586288752 475803 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chevron14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70704&oldid=69927 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+15) 10fixed title < 1586290094 575189 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My paper about Mersenne Twister cracking method I used for Seed golfing will be publicly available in Phrack Magazine p71 < 1586290109 886696 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's a sneak peek on my homepagE: http://kspalaiologos.now.im/?id=9 < 1586290124 233067 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone's interested in this < 1586290205 225775 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1586292604 680085 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4124:c93f:1f3f:d19c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586292640 843929 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e5a1:36c2:1473:2da1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586293717 806844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.0.238.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1586295125 20147 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586295265 366467 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1586295265 453985 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1586296243 32562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Seed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70705&oldid=66263 5* 03Ais523 5* (+109) 10link to kspalaiologos's guide to Seed programming < 1586296271 166336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586296324 962886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I was interested, although your algorithm is more complex than I expected; I was expecting there to be an instant reversal that produced optimal output, but maybe not? < 1586296384 524189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked into reversing LCRNGs a while back, if you have all the bits it's trivial, if you have only a few bits of consecutive elements then reversing the sequence appears to be NP-complete but typically easy in practice < 1586296406 689224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I forget the details but vaguely remember that you might be able to encode the subset sum problem in it) < 1586296661 217894 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play Washizu Scrabble, which like Washizu mahjong, you can see half of your opponent's cards, it is played with teams, and only one player on each team has a score that counts. > 1586297005 708789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Seed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70706&oldid=70705 5* 03Ais523 5* (+777) 10reference formatting, cats, difference between Turing- and -complete, the existing proof is for -hardness but Turing-completeness is also possible < 1586297094 968436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder how hard it is to write a Befunge-98 program which you can append anything to, and the resulting program will calculates its own length in bytes and interpret that as a program in some TC language < 1586297111 38483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, anything made up of printable ASCII and newlines < 1586297123 229278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's an issue that trailing newlines might or might not be visible < 1586297135 167273 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trailing spaces on a line wouldn't be visible either. < 1586297150 271493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, and that could be a larger problem < 1586297168 272806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, Seed would actually still be TC if the Befunge-98 program ignored whitespace < 1586297194 375539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be harder to calculate the length value you needed, but still fairly easy, as that only requires running the Mersenne Twister forwards and observing where the whitespace would be output < 1586297229 691998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some interpreters where you can deduce the presence of trailing spaces, though, aren't there? < 1586297283 900212 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine so, but I don't think there's a portable way. Even the 'y' command's bounding box is defined in terms of "a non-space cell", not the original program source. < 1586297304 686052 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even though it goes on to say: "These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.") < 1586297491 520470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could "simply" multiply the length value by 2¹⁹⁹³⁷-1 and have the program detect how many repeats of itself existed, although that would require proving that passing the Mersenne Twister through the modulo operation didn't create an output with a quotiented period < 1586297626 649811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth's SGB defines a defines a random number generator based on linear feedback. it's a pity that that one didn't become as well spread and used as a standard as the Mersenne twister. it's probably because SGB doesn't define an initialization method that takes more than a word of seed. < 1586297715 21666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Mersenne Twister's internal state is kind-of ridiculous :-D < 1586297736 355179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a benefit to having it that large? < 1586297928 142451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: dunno. the SGB random generator has an internal state of 55 words, 32 bits each, plus an index into that. < 1586298143 131284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NH4's PRNG has a 96-bit state, IIRC < 1586298184 638947 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but that has a different goal, doesn't it? NH4 wants to have an RNG that at least tries to be cryptographically secure, and sacrifices speed for that. < 1586298219 904088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Mersenne twister and the linear consomething generators don't try to be crypto secure at all, instead they try to be as fast as possible on near future machines when they were designed < 1586298309 36809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAOCP chapter 3.6 exercise 7 asks you to show that a linear congruential generator is very bad for cryptography, as in, find an attack < 1586298373 887710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NH4's PRNG is not cryptographically secure, there are two requirements for cryptographic security, it only aims to satisfy one of them < 1586298399 283689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(specifically, it cares about the property that observed output cannot be used to deduce future output, but not about any other CSPRNG properties) < 1586298443 647429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know it's not cryptographically secure, but it at least tries to be closer to it < 1586298497 408710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it wants to make it hard to predict future outputs, whereas the Mersenne twister (and lcgs and multiply random generators) don't < 1586298521 498254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that already makes NH4's random generator necessarily somewhat slower < 1586298531 345868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it fully cryptographically secure would be an overkill and even slower < 1586298577 93000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesn't NH4 also care about that you can't deduce anything about past output other than what was told to you? < 1586298591 270315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, good point < 1586298612 760794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen that mentioned as a cryptosecurity property in the past < 1586298630 728389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because it's implied by stronger properties I think < 1586298639 885793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, 96 bits seems pretty small even for that, < 1586298642 671548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the stronger property is "you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the seed" < 1586298652 920631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, we're not basing our banking system on the NH4 random generator, it's just a game < 1586298676 503005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course, if you /can/ deduce past output from future output, then you can deduce it from knowledge of the seed simply by generating some future output from it and using it to calculate past output < 1586298692 767005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not quite precise < 1586298717 488376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also require that you can't deduce past output from the combination of future output and other past output before that < 1586298721 405618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the current internal state" is the precise formulation, I think < 1586298728 709006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of the property that NH4 has < 1586298729 517128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the current seed isn't enough for that < 1586298743 194016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1586298858 224565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you have a sequence of RNG outputs where some are unknown, you can't deduce the unknown elements from the known elements" < 1586298891 980236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this is trivially false if the length of the sequence exceeds the period of the RNG, but we're assuming that the number of outputs which will ever be requested is small compared to the period < 1586298902 615430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sort of, but technically you need even stronger, because your knowledge need not be granular to individual elements of the sequence < 1586298935 264653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the period of the NH4 random generator (at an order of magnitude)? < 1586298961 861206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as the state size, 2⁹⁶ < 1586299002 905392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't know that for certain, but if it isn't, the cryptographic hash I'm using is utterly broken :-D < 1586299065 18639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1586299145 613418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's pretty certain that the period is 2⁹⁶ because the only way it couldn't be would be if the hash function ignored the first bit of its input entirely if it happened to be exactly 96 bits long < 1586299161 369338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no way that brokenness of that magnitude wouldn't be noticed < 1586299213 740630 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1586300485 801338 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1586302059 303916 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1586302065 244164 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric > 1586303126 530583 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alphaprint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70707&oldid=70489 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* Output */ fixed > 1586303398 911171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07LogicF---14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70708&oldid=70473 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+28) 10Cat fix /* Examples */