> 1586392674 77599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70772&oldid=70448 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+44) 10/* Functions */
> 1586393116 341218 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Symbols14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70773&oldid=63960 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10/* Javascript */ fixing varName
< 1586397903 975326 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586403375 976597 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1586404143 817974 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1586404610 790217 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does a "cure heart" decrease your health from 121 to 100?
> 1586413921 237523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70774&oldid=70689 5* 03Luke1337 5* (-362) 10Undo revision 53161 by [[Special:Contributions/Luke1337|Luke1337]] ([[User talk:Luke1337|talk]])
> 1586414432 903627 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aheui14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70775&oldid=60033 5* 03Luke1337 5* (-120) 10This implementation claims to "fix" bugs but diff reveals it actually doesn't; fails test case; incorrect handling of ''; inelegant wraparound handling; outdated etc.
< 1586416204 299979 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586418628 747895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: maybe it drains some of your general or average health to fix a problem specifically in your heart, and you should use that spell only if you have a risk of heart problems and can afford some of the health of the rest of your body, as in your liver?
< 1586418701 513250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like many real world medications, they can't magically add health to you, but they can redirect your body to focus to something more in exchange of something else, like in the tradeoff between antibiotics vs antihistamines.
< 1586418789 648033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antibiotics can kill a bacterial infection, but in exchange you get worse allergies, so if you have both bacterial infections and allergies it's hard to cure, which is one of the big difficulty with organ transplantation.
< 1586419079 302405 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586419285 805390 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1586419464 572344 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :neoletters has been updated with better arabic
< 1586419770 291804 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also now includes two letters from the language "poliespo" invented by a esperantist murderer
< 1586420058 679481 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically "overstruck p and w" and "overstruck t and v"
< 1586420079 675665 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoded at  and  respectively
> 1586420958 158829 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70776&oldid=63150 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+104) 10/* Languages I have created */ Isthmus Cyclicus Crypticus
> 1586421538 113477 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70777&oldid=62050 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+292) 10/* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */ Devil's advocate
< 1586422231 405357 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586424892 922118 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586424986 616486 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1586424986 936685 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1586425703 730125 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1586426216 118611 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.11.105.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586426487 208715 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586428880 378789 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete.
< 1586428970 185212 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was based on the observation that there is no primite-recursive function which can interpret arbitrary primitive recursive functions, and other examples like that.
< 1586428991 356158 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I've known this is just a conjecture, and I'm very interested in counter-examples.
< 1586429035 823927 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think I found one the other day but I haven't looked into it yet.
< 1586429126 94172 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/popl16/
< 1586429151 759874 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which claims to be an interpreter for F_omega, written in F_omega.
< 1586429193 748711 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I also understand that F_omega is strongly normalizing, which means F_omega programs always terminate, which means F_omega is *not* Turing-complete.
< 1586429290 510370 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although what computability class F_omega represents, I don't know.  I imagine that it is at least primitive recursive, and probably beyond primitive recursive to some degree.  i.e. I would not be surprised if you could write the Ackermann function in F_omega.  But again, I don't really know, yet.
< 1586429430 903527 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about F_omega except that it's one corner of the lambda cube.  Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than "From a computing point of view, λω is extremely strong, and has been considered as a basis for programming languages", which I guess would be consistent with this result.
< 1586429474 224639 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry, that's lambda_omega, not F_omega
< 1586429491 315228 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WP says even less about F_omega.
< 1586429538 642539 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the heck is lambda_omega anyway.
< 1586429616 806313 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, sounds like F_omega and lambda_omega could be the same thing?
< 1586429624 637833 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well anyway.
< 1586429695 596688 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should try to read the papers.
< 1586430732 766891 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586431116 163130 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1
< 1586431439 611684 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b909:387b:8115:a623 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1586431453 265114 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:187:4f56:6aea:a3ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586435326 773892 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586435837 8335 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is another, much older result related to that conjecture I mentioned earlier, which is this: there's a CFL that's "CFL-complete" in the sense that it's as least as complex to parse it, as it is to parse any other CFL.  But I don't know if that counts as "universal" in the same sense as a self-interpreter does.  It's certainly similar in some ways though.
< 1586435955 814191 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure that result was by Greibach in the 1970's though I can't find my notes on it atm.
< 1586436473 776276 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, found it: https://epubs.siam.org/doi/10.1137/0202025
< 1586436609 699441 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, the CFG constructed in that paper takes a string and a description of a CFG and accepts iff the given CFG accepts the string.
< 1586436643 196828 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which sounds like a "universal CFG" to me.
< 1586436978 46873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1199
< 1586436978 965275 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1199: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1586437068 9967 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1586438224 57782 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1586438280 759311 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric
> 1586438436 13750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EGSHEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70778&oldid=68935 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-10) 10fixed link
< 1586438537 408979 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:187:4f56:6aea:a3ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think I properly fixed the proof for the generalized W rule, see latest commit
> 1586439511 537177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70779&oldid=58027 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+2) 10/* Interpreters */ updated link
< 1586439889 803286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586439906 129113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<cpressey> For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete. ← what about "the language where all programs do nothing"? that can self-interpret
< 1586439911 703789 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586439914 910690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has a very weak computational class
< 1586439924 72946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the question needs to be formulated more precisely, but am not sure how
< 1586439958 333818 :birdt!~birdt@125-209-160-47.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586440025 560090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah that's probably just false... there seems nothing in a self-interpreter that makes a language more expressive than it already is.
< 1586440036 323958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can add it as a primitive if all else fails.)
> 1586440064 563333 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ETalk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70780&oldid=13379 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title
< 1586440083 247046 :birdt!~birdt@125-209-160-47.dyn.iinet.net.au QUIT :Quit: Fucking off.
< 1586440110 551646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, "weak language + self-interpreting primitive" makes for another good counterexample
< 1586440143 711282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was also going to mention things like Easy but I think that's naturally TC
< 1586440156 91563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it embeds BF
< 1586440304 136117 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying it's not an interesting question though. Also the question of what adding self-interpretation does to a model of computation may be interesting, too. For example, it seems that PR (primitive recursion) + interpreter for PR (with a sane encoding for functions that can be manipulated with primitive recursive functions) goes beyond PR (because it escapes the leveling restriction).
< 1586440396 836625 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? olist
< 1586440398 282047 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
< 1586440403 35434 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao what
< 1586440437 139355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually, if we call that PR'... PR' is not obviously capable of self-interpretation. I suspect it's not...)
< 1586440500 17661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: there's a few of those
< 1586440550 928457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? slist
< 1586440552 178914 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
< 1586440554 780402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? smlist
< 1586440556 65548 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
< 1586440563 991345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`listlist
< 1586440566 908287 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
< 1586440577 455409 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :`listlistlist
< 1586440578 219468 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :listlistlist? No such file or directory
< 1586440589 257413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, stylist
< 1586440612 347877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? calesyta2016list
< 1586440613 564028 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :calesyta2016list? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1586440620 582655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one can probably be removed :P
< 1586440628 456801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mlist
< 1586440629 793864 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :mlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1586440650 712251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hbrl mlist
< 1586440651 396983 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :hbrl? No such file or directory
< 1586440655 973901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww
< 1586440660 365757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hurl ../bin/mlist
< 1586440661 425278 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/mlist
< 1586440777 463719 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in "the language where all programs do nothing", all programs are self-interpreters.  You could add "non-trivial" to exclude this.
< 1586440885 614803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mlist" is obscure... https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-03-03.html#lRj ... I don't get it.
< 1586440908 319969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ais523 made that point; I actually made it non-trivial.
< 1586440913 918643 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And much like how we can forbid "cheating quines" like 10 LIST 10 in BASIC, we can forbid any language that has a "self-interpret instruction".
< 1586440935 571658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hard though
< 1586440949 957551 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any language where you have a self-interpret instruction, but it's not *obviously* a self-interpret instruction, is fair game
< 1586441021 741963 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was alluding to the technical meaning of "non-trivial" like it's used in Rice's theorem, but yes, ok, whatever, it's not important
< 1586441039 273167 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry yes
< 1586441041 783136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a huge spectrum between strange machines that accidentally can interpret your language to something like a bytecode interpreter to interpreting the language itself.
< 1586441049 299688 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant to reply to ais523 
< 1586441094 293406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably you want to draw the line between the first two categories, and that seems to be very hard to capture formally to me.
< 1586441118 325586 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be interested to know what languages F_omega can and can't recognize
< 1586441154 336231 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be more than PR, but less than RE
< 1586441167 26238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? F_ω
< 1586441169 875211 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :F_ω? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1586441175 784398 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I should probably know this)
< 1586441193 726942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F#System_F%CF%89
< 1586441287 561100 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there's also an implementation of Coq in Coq, which (assuming it's legit and not cheating somehow) suggests a similar thing might stand for that other corner of the lambda cube
< 1586441428 568458 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in "http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-08-18.2460.html" the article that defines the (0) esolang, David Madore explains how you should define "self-interpreter" in a language that can't self-interpret in a traditional sense, like one that has only the power of primitive recursive
< 1586441508 475155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, if you restrict (0) to integer inputs, it's exactly as powerful as primitive recursive (BLoop), but he needs more generality than that there
< 1586441617 541584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely he wants to know what the easiest way is to prove that certain of those languages are equipowerful, and their computational complexity isn't as well known as the primitive recursive or the turing complete thing, and the only proof he knows is a really difficult one via such a full interpreter, which is annoying
< 1586442108 830862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Does it show that though? You'd have to check what kind of axioms the formalization uses.
< 1586442357 280548 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: That's what I meant by "assuming it's legit". I was in fact assuming it was invoking some kind of cheat, until I came across the F_omega self-interpreter paper - now I'm not so sure.
< 1586442414 366148 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm not convinced the F_omega thing isn't cheating somehow too. But I really just need to sit down and read it.
< 1586442529 75272 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1586443116 427778 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Wait though.  Say you have an interpreter for language L, and L is in computational class C.  Then you add a self-interpret instruction to L to obtain L'.  L' might no longer be in computational class C.  So you haven't shown anything about computational class C by doing this.
< 1586443142 894583 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is in response to your "That's probably just false".)
< 1586443150 61051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Been down that path (see PR' above)
< 1586443187 666579 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously the self-interpreter should take itself into account. This /may/ push it into RE territory.
< 1586443231 583793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because at least naively it involves some sort of fixed point)
< 1586443274 736147 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.71.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, yes.  I was thinking "add to L an instruction that interprets L programs", that's not quite the same thing
< 1586443322 993536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there are lots of knobs to tweak here.
> 1586443644 873327 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Element14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70781&oldid=69991 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-20) 10/* Interpreter */ fixed link
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< 1586444723 223078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it hard to see how Coq could self-interpret, assuming it's consistent
< 1586444735 942098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's consistent it can't typecheck itself, thus it can't prove a Coq program is total
< 1586444751 46788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that you can't prove that the self-interpreter itself exits, so the program as a whole won't typecheck
< 1586444861 870693 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't type checking still decidable
< 1586444871 60335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in CoC)
< 1586444907 541926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, but you need something more powerful than the CoC itself to decide it
< 1586444924 933332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: see above, there's an alternate definition for self-interpreter that works for self-interpreters in languages like BLoop
> 1586444939 164045 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70782&oldid=70106 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+540) 10up-to-date stuff
< 1586444966 293626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm really slow at reading French though
< 1586444968 913412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically you define a function that takes a program and a number, and the function interprets the program except it stops after as many steps as that number
< 1586444973 561393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and need to look up words sometimes
< 1586444976 690320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number is called fuel
< 1586444983 284948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, me too
< 1586444986 509158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah right, the "run this program for this many steps" function
< 1586444992 533420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's much easier to implement than a true self-interpreter
< 1586445012 273589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"easier" hehe
< 1586445017 234904 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, do the inductive definitions add power?
< 1586445020 609249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: aren't there six general-purpose registers now?
< 1586445030 253595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the article still says four, and then names six of them
< 1586445030 253682 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes
< 1586445035 107295 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have overlooked that
< 1586445040 126114 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1586445055 793834 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1586445062 217652 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70783&oldid=70782 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-1) 10
< 1586445065 136521 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :done
< 1586445069 463956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's OK, I just thought I'd let you know the mistake while you're around to fix it
< 1586445074 871635 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thanks
< 1586445080 488935 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really appreciate it
< 1586445094 912392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a long time ago I was writing my own asm-for-BF, and a gcc backend to targe it
< 1586445105 389399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the code has been lost, I think, due to gcc being too large to fit in my backups
< 1586445110 235335 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, what kind of ISA did you have?
< 1586445114 983360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I remember I stalled trying to find a good multiplication algorithm
< 1586445115 728614 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'
< 1586445132 463616 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :m going to either for Watcom C or my own compiler
< 1586445143 801414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ISA was very bf-specific, it contained instructions like tadd x, y (which sets x to x + y and y to 0)
< 1586445158 126382 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I've made a c=>brainfuck compiler before supporting C89, but it outputs too big binaries to be reasonable
< 1586445161 392822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the stack pointer was magical
< 1586445164 309207 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1586445164 990566 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.11.105.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1586445174 287371 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you actually dont need a stack pointer
< 1586445177 594846 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe me or not
< 1586445185 49731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, gcc wasn't as flexible as I wanted, it made too many assumptions which weren't correct in a BF context
< 1586445195 418405 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm working with Watcom C for a while now
< 1586445200 551904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I think you do if you want to work with gcc's backend
< 1586445207 653078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite hard to get pre-existing C compilers to implement recursion without one
< 1586445216 351320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even though it is of course theoretically possible, they just aren't set up to use alternative methods)
< 1586445224 160399 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :outputs simple yet beautifully small 8086 assembly
< 1586445233 217740 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a push/pop only stack for now
< 1586445239 954579 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan or adding effective adresses soon
< 1586445251 743837 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can like do [sp-5] to get 5th element from the top
< 1586445252 49870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the stack pointer as a non-accessible register
< 1586445254 418195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did it like that too
< 1586445257 193110 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sp isn't actually a register
< 1586445264 854924 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't exist and the value is unknown
< 1586445269 466567 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it still works ;)
< 1586445276 432255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had 64 general-purpose registers because general-purpose registers are cheap in BF
< 1586445287 952252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was targeting a BF interpreter that used RLE optimization internally)
< 1586445298 826252 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've split the memory into permagen with registers and temps, stack of definable size and peek/poke taperam
< 1586445324 145829 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm working on general fixes involving infrastructure to make it more welcoming to beginners (although there aren't any)
< 1586445339 407397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my split was GP registers, followed by interleaved stack and heap and temps
< 1586445350 263491 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting
< 1586445357 790634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most of the temps were for navigational purposes, to remember where you were when moving between GP registers and stack/heap)
< 1586445358 139023 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my stack and taperam are actually separate from each other
< 1586445366 789916 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1586445377 919232 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I remember my permagen is just 20 brainfuck cells big
< 1586445382 455139 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it supports very complex operations
< 1586445397 241591 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and soon I plan on creating a virtual machine that would hint the brainfuck interpreter about the assembly code so you can debug asm2bf eaisly and test your programs
< 1586445420 486558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember a point in the code where I multiplied something by 128 to determine whether it was odd or even
< 1586445426 109706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assume I was targetting 8-bit wrapping
< 1586445428 49796 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1586445432 696004 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1586445444 654311 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ISA assumes 16-bit cells, but it runs just fine on smaller cells aswell
< 1586445451 5830 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on bignum cells too
< 1586445472 969552 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it becomes a bit hairy if you run an 8bit interpreter, because you can index just 256b of taperam
< 1586445505 64063 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've got a bconv program that translated 16-bit compiliant bf code to 8bit compiliant one
< 1586445508 970057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used multiple consecutive cells to hold addresses
< 1586445512 27223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like real CPUs do
< 1586445529 191655 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ we don't use segment:offset adressing since 90's :p
< 1586445540 182411 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a relic of the past, 64-bit adress lines are here
< 1586445553 602714 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've implemented segments as well
< 1586445556 611111 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for god knows what reason
< 1586445558 90781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we still use multiple consecutive bytes to hold our 64-bit addresses
> 1586445558 389187 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RarVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70784&oldid=68928 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title
< 1586445566 263567 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you've got cells in brainfuck
< 1586445573 920557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I'm wondering what the fastest algorithm to seek to a cell by number is
< 1586445576 612591 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a cell doesn't map to a byte really
< 1586445598 919686 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can look it up in my code
< 1586445604 676100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want to drag the number with you rather than going back each time to decrement it
< 1586445612 231756 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586445627 901948 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah possibly
< 1586445636 42538 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'll make a VM that will execute these programs faster
< 1586445650 241894 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't bother me at all, because it works as brainfuck and VM is just a performance perk
< 1586445663 299968 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same will go with my to-malbolge-private-compiler-suite
< 1586445715 633360 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan on implementing aliases rn
< 1586445731 76280 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like this: https://pastebin.com/raw/xdEqY8x4
< 1586445744 390046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing I've been thinking about is SSA compilation of counter machines (including balanced parts of brainfuck programs)
< 1586445747 763658 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arguably "decompilation"
< 1586445756 495762 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aa right
< 1586445760 32241 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once got interested in this
< 1586445767 251623 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never got to creating such a tool to perform this
< 1586445789 192001 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I laid a lot of requirements (like the brainfuck to 2/3 register counter machine compiler)
< 1586445816 465038 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sorry
< 1586445823 720817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started, but got stuck because I didn't have clear enough rules for what was allowed to refer to what and what changed in the PHI nodes
< 1586445824 757448 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant inf cell brainfuck to 3 cell brainfuck
< 1586445833 588448 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a phi node
< 1586445841 573235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ssapmmn.tar.gz if you (or anyone else) is interested
< 1586445858 61621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: well, the point of SSA is that nothing ever changes, you create new variables rather than overwriting old ones
< 1586445871 293012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the program contains any loops, at some point you have to overwrite an old variable with a new value
< 1586445877 803611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you only have finitely many
< 1586445889 987693 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good old C code utilizing lex/yacc
< 1586445893 324886 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I wanted to see today
< 1586445898 205579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a phi node is one of the tricks used to do that, it defines a variable to mean one of two different things depending on the history of the code's control flow
< 1586445903 201373 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :love it already without reading the code
< 1586445917 125044 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you want to analize the control flow history
< 1586445928 530555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I understand it well enough to implement it correctly :-D
< 1586445951 922875 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it
< 1586445955 439259 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s massive though
< 1586445970 404568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you view things at the asm level, it's as simple as putting a phi node at a goto target and checking to see whether you got there via goto or via falling into it
< 1586445982 253361 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I wonder is there a C interpreter for rle-based brainfuck already
< 1586445985 748568 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I'll have to code it myself late
< 1586445991 213469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are loads, I think
< 1586445998 268388 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because rn I'm decompressing the code and then running it but it's stupid very
< 1586446002 240629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem being that there are /so many/ BF interpreters that finding the right one is hard
< 1586446008 593908 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1586446049 763494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably just modify a BF Joust interpreter, RLE is part of the spec in BF Joust (although timing is also part of the spec so they will loop over RLEd sections one command at a time)
< 1586446061 136025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bigger problem would be finding an optimizing interpreter that takes RLE as input
< 1586446242 222062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been meaning at some point to redo SSAPMMN but with more rigorous rules for how the internal asm-like format works, and accepting languages like BF, The Waterfall Model, etc., not just PMMN
< 1586447450 759037 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Bill Buzbee's retargeting a C compiler to Magic-1 is like that. Magic-1 has an accumulator instr set, sort of like 6502, so he lied to the compiler that there are 8 gp registers, but those are actually in memory
< 1586447458 816165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
< 1586447503 270614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Magic-1 does not have zero-page addressing
> 1586447513 71617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EnilKode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70785&oldid=69288 5* 03EnilKoder 5* (-41) 10
< 1586447904 913833 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I've seen that going on
< 1586447908 833378 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite normal
< 1586447920 521811 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when implementing Subleq to Brainfuck translator/interpreter (yes)
< 1586447924 50942 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I did
< 1586448661 852949 :diverger!~div@185.246.211.104 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
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> 1586455179 69785 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07First.go14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70786&oldid=55956 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title
< 1586455522 779215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ is what I've been playing with (Kolmogorov complexity with open (self-delimited) inputs). The equivalent of pairup is 853 bits at the moment; I think that's not too bad compared to the 657.
< 1586455543 205299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for KP)
< 1586455597 761251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I'll look at the proof over the weekend. I think I want to have a look at the April Ponder This challenge first.
< 1586455805 152789 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should look at that Ponder too
< 1586456100 749583 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: reboting
< 1586456240 144888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: you might enjoy https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/I1_c.lam which is a 71 bit length function (which is a bit shorter than what I've found in the AIT repo).
< 1586456272 876970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, make that 69
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> 1586458485 980146 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07FuckbeEs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70787&oldid=53228 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title
< 1586458963 775269 :noomy!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :MoonyTheDwarf
< 1586458985 122502 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister NICK :kmcallister
< 1586458987 546208 :kmcallister!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister NICK :kmc
< 1586458987 606136 :MoonyTheDwarf!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :noomy
< 1586459102 446329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if the registers are actually in memory, why not have lots of them? register spills are a disaster in such an architecture because you're copying things from one memory location to another for no good reason
< 1586459119 524294 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I'd say otherwise
< 1586459122 200347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and providing additional registers in such an architecture is very cheap
< 1586459151 243053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in RLE'd BF, providing additional registers is actually free because seeking to a fixed address has a constant cost regardless of the distance
< 1586459166 771267 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean if you're keen on making zillions of registers, then go ahead and index the whole tape
< 1586459176 750147 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but remember that you need a stack and taperam going
< 1586459184 370113 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this makes things hairy
< 1586459188 754101 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not operate on memory references then
< 1586459191 229206 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of registers
< 1586459200 15859 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :add [0], [3]
< 1586459217 261228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the memory addresses have fixed locations on the tape then that's fine
< 1586459224 385033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see a reason why they necessarily would
< 1586459228 636629 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can be arbitrary aswell
< 1586459243 864282 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you're feeling eccentric enough, they can be nested
< 1586459270 458025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can see an argument for a zero-register construction
< 1586459285 849606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see an argument for a construction that has a number of general-purpose registers that's greater than zero, but small, though
< 1586459320 170015 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got 6 registers now
< 1586459325 970864 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it's surely enough, at least for the time being
< 1586459338 946381 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I'll extend it the later day, but remember that RLE'd brainfuck ain't a standard
< 1586459356 267716 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gone exactly through the same mindset as you, so my C compiler produces a 12MB brainfuck binary :v)
< 1586459372 74290 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"binary" <- not a binary actually, just the output file
< 1586459409 863237 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan on adding a register or two for effective adresses
< 1586459417 875145 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a couple of registers for the floating point operations
< 1586459461 300159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you implement multiplication, btw? just a repeated addition loop?
< 1586459474 380738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of my motivation for using an 8-bit tape was to prevent operations like that being very slow
< 1586459481 91764 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1[d+1-]d[2[1+e+2-]e[2+e-]d-]
< 1586459498 844360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that looks like a repeated addition loop to me
< 1586459501 904753 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I preserve the registers aswell
< 1586459504 27894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I felt that that wouldn't have the sort of performance I wanted
< 1586459513 466793 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what more do you want, I doubt one can do something about it
< 1586459525 164294 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's actually possible to do that in a better way
< 1586459529 314538 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll happily learn how
< 1586459559 380824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure you can do something about it, either
< 1586459568 718035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the point at which I gave up on my C-to-BF compiler
< 1586459575 696939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i couldn't find a solution to this that I was satisfied with
< 1586459602 913208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, optimizing BF compilers will recognise that sort of multiply and optimize it out anyway
< 1586459610 94381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it isn't a real issue in practice
< 1586459636 309179 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>worrying about brainfuck code performance
< 1586459640 213942 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1586459665 146185 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here who could support an arxiv submission of an Egel paper of mine?
< 1586459670 952544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't I worry about BF performance?
< 1586459689 555912 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you obviously can
< 1586459691 257530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: oerjan is the first name that comes to mind, but isn't here at the moment
< 1586459694 105141 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't find a point for this
< 1586459710 102002 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I contact oerjan?
< 1586459714 733218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it would rather depend on how eso the paper was
< 1586459714 797834 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use @tell
< 1586459732 84782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie might be able to? not sure
< 1586459739 559553 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean - brainfuck isn't the best language for writing at least mildly performant applications in it's pure form
< 1586459749 282600 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to do something more interesting and fast you have to extend it
< 1586459753 884374 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a defeat of the purpose
< 1586459760 312510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I see programming as communication, you're trying to tell a computer (or another human) what you mean
< 1586459764 586738 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Could, or would, you be so kind to support an arxiv submission of a paper I wrote?
< 1586459764 786687 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1586459776 224778 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks people.
< 1586459794 531359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that allows for optimization at both ends of the computation, both for the person writing it, and for the computer understanding it
< 1586459805 634618 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's right, and that's a good mindset
< 1586459818 740502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF is a particularly simple form of programming, but a fully general one, so getting humans to be able to express ideas more efficiently, and computers to be able to understand and run them more efficiently, seems valuable
< 1586459832 87114 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OISC?
< 1586459836 818260 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simpler form of programming
< 1586459849 844246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I care about OISCs too!
< 1586459864 148137 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have a very similliar mindset on programming back in the day
< 1586459873 532604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, most of the esolangs I care about are either a) simpler than BF in some senses, or else b) particularly interesting ways of conveying information about what you mean
< 1586459901 988018 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting
< 1586459908 230149 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, which languages?
< 1586459927 624841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog is one of my favourite languages
< 1586459943 441447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets further than most languages at allowing you to express the problem, rather than having to describe a solution to it
< 1586459979 106685 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brachylog solves the problem, right?
< 1586459999 966299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, given a description of the problem, it attempts to determine a solution to it without being explicitly told an algorithm
< 1586460004 611979 :ARCUN!ade6811e@173.230.129.30 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1586460009 732447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't perfect at doing this, but it's better than most non-esolangs and almost all esolangs
< 1586460025 925579 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait
< 1586460027 492258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has made it a particularly good language for programming competitions
< 1586460030 424991 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's get to normal Prolog for a second
< 1586460043 837305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal Prolog is also pretty good at this, but it's rather low-level
< 1586460058 511805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you often have to pay attention to how it works internally to make your programs work
< 1586460071 889627 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there some higher-level extensions?
< 1586460089 690252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Brachylog incorporates at least one (a constraint solver for integer arithmetic)
< 1586460097 324134 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that not necessairly make the engine create an O(N^N^N^N^N^N) solution
< 1586460097 588037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, its standard library just understands more concepts
< 1586460108 462189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, performance is, of course, a huge issue when doing this sort of thing :-D
< 1586460123 690045 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, what about a factorial
< 1586460131 899109 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of algorithm will it come up
< 1586460136 838931 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in terms of complexity)
< 1586460153 962347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 100ḟ
< 1586460155 742747 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ true.
< 1586460158 264986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 100ḟw
< 1586460159 633248 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true.
< 1586460167 750322 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm starting to find the potential for this
< 1586460169 319840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, Brachylog already knows what a factorial is
< 1586460177 235032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unlike Prolog)
< 1586460188 80299 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, for example one could solve like logical riddles or something like that using prolog
< 1586460191 18959 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually amazing
< 1586460211 631804 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be ten times more amazing if it fit on my TI-83+
< 1586460236 639813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 100⟦₁×w
< 1586460238 20789 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true.
< 1586460247 620012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, that's without using the builtin
< 1586460257 220085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"product of all the numbers from 1 to 100 inclusive"
< 1586460299 966887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000&w
< 1586460301 419260 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :100 \ true.
< 1586460309 311466 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting
< 1586460310 573369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, you can't do /that/ from the definition in most languages
< 1586460316 80261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the performance still seemed to be pretty good
< 1586460326 605574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000001&w
< 1586460332 907357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just curious as to whether it realises that's impossible
< 1586460339 93732 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you write a program that calculates factorial of 1,000 and displays how many digits does it have?
< 1586460340 243000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the biggest problems with Brachylog
< 1586460355 872267 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to "test" something
< 1586460363 202532 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1586460365 62607 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly on tio.run, I won't kill HackEso xD
< 1586460365 787066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 1000ḟlw
< 1586460370 777489 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2568 \ true.
< 1586460375 887211 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1586460399 222996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm basically 100% sure it actually calculated every digit, then counted them
< 1586460406 348136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than doing anything to optimize the calculation
< 1586460449 480873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog's biggest downside is that it the algorithms it uses look only locally, it knows what it's doing for each individual command in the program but looks at them in order and doesn't handle any sort of long-range optimization
< 1586460531 490557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax takes a bit of getting used to, too, but that's common with esolangs
< 1586460559 72896 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog: Real time: 1.940 s C: Real time: 0.286 s
< 1586460566 376555 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factorial of 1000
< 1586460576 536669 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean  that's understandable that it took around 10 times more time
< 1586460585 234095 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's very convenient to write
< 1586460601 440962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what bignum library is the C program using?
< 1586460603 58666 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't make long term computations in it
< 1586460605 340019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect that to dominate the time
< 1586460607 468621 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no bignum library
< 1586460623 776771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, then the C program is probably just calculating the low 32/64 bits
< 1586460625 522930 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wrote a tiny multiplication algorithm over char array
< 1586460632 426467 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not this foolish :p
< 1586460638 662374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so a handrolled bignum library
< 1586460644 538274 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally 20 lines long
< 1586460650 397385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems about right
< 1586460660 442359 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :numba's stored as base256
< 1586460710 886154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it's clear to me that a "more intelligent" brachylog-alike could realise that 100!+1 is not the factorial of any number (e.g. by realising the factorial function is increasing)
< 1586460734 983741 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt one would put time in this
< 1586460740 54100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but our current declarative languages aren't up to the task of realising that and will keep brute-forcing possibilities for ever larger numbers forever
< 1586460745 468582 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd train an AI to solve these riddles for me because it's more probable
< 1586460765 637446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, /isn't/ this training an AI to solve riddles for you, in a way?
< 1586460778 732326 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't train an AI
< 1586460782 436213 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just feed it data :p
< 1586460794 566653 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the AI has been trained manually by prolog developers
< 1586460798 569663 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's kinda pants
> 1586460817 257551 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Galapagos 5*  10New user account
< 1586460820 977783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hmm
< 1586460830 336897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a difference between strong AI, which figures things out itself from training data
< 1586460840 809670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and weak AI which has more things hardcoded and is more specialised to one particular job
< 1586460842 357801 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about AI
< 1586460849 951289 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't speak the language of aliens to me
< 1586460895 910866 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I knew more about theory of CS
< 1586460911 571090 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never got around to learning it, because the sources are a bit uncomprehendable
< 1586460923 766052 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if the sources, there was no one to learn me it
< 1586460927 548650 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*teach
< 1586460937 962478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, CS theory is my job
< 1586460943 994934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a very big field, and I'm only interested in parts of it
< 1586460947 852453 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you a harp tuner?
< 1586460959 216866 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear someone has been harp tuner over there
< 1586460964 854930 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`q harp
< 1586460966 453869 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1280) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
< 1586460977 125618 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a, only formally trained, ok
< 1586460977 444380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I was formally trained to tune harps, that doesn't mean it's my current job (or indeed that I've ever done it for money)
< 1586460989 818620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more just a random fact
< 1586460997 975901 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine :p
< 1586461024 677889 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how exactly do you monetise your CS knowledge
> 1586461034 156655 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70788&oldid=70774 5* 03Galapagos 5* (+254) 10/* Introductions */
< 1586461044 157050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my case, it's more like monetising my esolang knowledge
< 1586461049 747484 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1586461053 141121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a CS researcher comes up with an idea for a new style of programming
< 1586461056 520181 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I found a way to do that
< 1586461058 99788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they need someone to test it out and see if it could work
< 1586461077 597372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, well, there aren't that many people who are up for programming in newly invented languages, especially if they have to implement the language too
< 1586461089 270972 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're essentially a guinea pig for CS researchers?
< 1586461100 14213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, or was; my current job's drifted away a bit from that
< 1586461109 823805 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can't write Brainfuck-based casino software forever :p
< 1586461134 234647 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kspalaiologos
< 1586461135 503863 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos is a brainfuck addict and a late night Perl hacker. He's secretly disassembling brainfuck code for a casino that lost the source code. Apparently knows the secret of Malbolge.
< 1586461137 89006 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still here
< 1586461149 602006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this implies that the casino compiled to BF
< 1586461154 499567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems like an odd thing to do
< 1586461166 975870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise, their BF code would /be/ the source code)
< 1586461184 842439 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes thats right
< 1586461202 968091 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they didn't tell me the name of tool
< 1586461205 101753 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed decent
< 1586461216 9592 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :supossedly the developer took it with him lol
< 1586461225 156214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the idea that BF is fulfilling a similar role in industry as BANCStar
< 1586461241 834370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I should say "commerce", casinos aren't very industrial
< 1586461249 149421 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this
< 1586461251 518280 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BANCStar?
< 1586461267 214443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a (really terrible) bytecode format that was used as the backend for some sort of commercial GUI program
< 1586461279 742868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the frontend that compiled to it was bad enough that people started programming in BANCStar directly
< 1586461298 710512 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao
< 1586461299 716790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's generally considered one of the worst programming languages to exist, other than ones which were intentionally created as bad (maybe even then, because it has less of an excuse)
< 1586461301 631141 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why was it invented
< 1586461314 390329 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about COBOL or JavaScript
< 1586461317 650630 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're terrible too
< 1586461318 862251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is that because it was a commercial product, nobody seems quite clear on the specs
< 1586461325 137753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is way worse than COBOL or JavaScript
< 1586461341 930475 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible
< 1586461344 502300 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look it up
< 1586461352 643324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/BANCStar
< 1586461366 871751 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao what the hell is this
< 1586461370 613638 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the application of this
< 1586461407 958007 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather program in Malbolge
< 1586461430 329567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Wikipedia> BANCStar is a specialist computer programming language for financial applications.[citation needed] The language is an internal language for the National Financial Computer Services, Inc (later Broadway & Seymour) BANCStar application, which is software to automate the operations of a bank branch
< 1586461444 687122 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that before
< 1586461453 402143 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is there something like specific
< 1586461458 85600 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a name of software written in it
< 1586461460 924408 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a screenshot, photo
< 1586461508 46715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, BANCStar was the name of the software written in it, but became attached to the language itself somehow
< 1586461521 94497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language itself was originally called "screen code" but it isn't a very memorable or searchable name
< 1586461543 629850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was intended to write user interfaces for banks, we don't know all that much beyond that though
< 1586461580 720912 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I was the guy who wrote it
< 1586461581 619226 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things have been figured out by looking at the existing programs, although some things are unknown, and some people (including myself) disagree about the ideas of what some of the commands are supposed to mean.
< 1586461596 380568 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't admit I made it
< 1586461621 288401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it makes /slightly/ more sense as a bytecode format than a programming language, but it's clearly terribly designed for either role
< 1586461692 388953 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I knew malbolge before
< 1586461696 89914 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, how to program it
< 1586461699 546631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, your casino programmer probably compiled to BF in the hope that the casino wouldn't then be able to fire them
< 1586461702 785565 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without willingness to remove my eyes
< 1586461705 946341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nobody would be able to do anything with the resulting code
< 1586461719 587129 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they wanted to have a Brainfuck or Malbolge solution
< 1586461724 280156 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because security standards :v)
< 1586461726 310750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe BANCStar has a similar purpose? it looks like the sort of thing that would only be created by a large collaboration though
< 1586461743 964628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think using BF or Malbolge would be security through obscurity more than anything else
< 1586461765 870336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :raw uncommented BF isn't that much harder to understand than raw uncommented machine code
< 1586461809 89545 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BANCStar was legitimate, and may have been originally designed to write the code directly but the designer decided it wasn't very good for that purpose and so made the screen generator instead and then never documented the code.
< 1586461821 799884 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha ha
< 1586461825 364619 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now tell me
< 1586461829 86097 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I wrote this in malbolge
< 1586461839 547610 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course I don't know, so, I just guess.)
< 1586461840 265617 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would there be a person willing to reverse enginner it?
< 1586461846 893735 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about a casino using bf?
< 1586461848 671699 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for a financial gain of few hundred points
< 1586461860 609507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: there are definitely people who would try just for the challenge, I'm not sure how far they'd get before giving up
< 1586461863 210909 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pounds
< 1586461869 900288 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p
< 1586461871 574950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that I believe that Malbolge is considerably easier to read than it is to write
< 1586461896 691051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the hardest part in Malbolge is making everything fit together so that it's encryption-stable and keeping control of the C and D pointers
< 1586461900 622914 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, a bit like that
< 1586461905 234377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a reader doesn't have to do that, only a writer
< 1586461918 626339 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're missing a very important thing:p
< 1586461940 407181 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a decent safe malbolge program would be around 10MB
< 1586461949 831523 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :consume around 4GB of RAM I presume
< 1586461956 363322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of it would be no-ops, though, wouldn't it?
< 1586461961 5173 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong
< 1586461974 502182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, you can't put a stable no-op everywhere
< 1586461987 980221 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they would act a bit like these
< 1586461991 830495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess much of it is code that doesn't do anything but is not obviously a no-op
< 1586461992 749039 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they wouldn't be these
< 1586462006 676198 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to distinguish malbolge  code and a bit optimized malbolge code
< 1586462079 562721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good point, though, distinguishing padding from useful code is going to be hard without prior knowledge of which is which
< 1586462128 298286 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1586462135 934424 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you unroll the loop
< 1586462139 233202 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's viable
< 1586462162 165812 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can view some malbolge samples and get a taste of this
< 1586462171 952975 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions
< 1586462175 870364 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be around 30 of them
< 1586462180 812358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't found a good environment for reading Malbolge yet
< 1586462193 537864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :raw Malbolge is hard to read, normalized Malbolge doesn't contain all the information you'd need and doesn't really help much
< 1586462203 57693 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are normalized malbolge translators
< 1586462206 399797 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1586462237 398012 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I didn't write any RE tooling for malbolge
< 1586462239 345427 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just compilers
< 1586462260 645467 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple small abstraction layers
< 1586462268 150262 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :peephole opt
< 1586462329 892270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, something like https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions/blob/master/60106.mb, I can tell that it's pretty NOP-heavy even without normalizing
< 1586462374 530875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that appears to be not Malbolge, but rather HTML-escaped Malbolge
< 1586462400 303783 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1586462407 380389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not everywhere, some lines aren't escaped
< 1586462438 11537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm curious as to how that happened
< 1586462456 778650 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1586462457 963593 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1586462479 85038 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I genuinely have no idea
< 1586462524 522506 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't this many nop slides cmon
< 1586462533 287741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't long slides
< 1586462544 951672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more, you have 20 commands in a row and perhaps 14/15 of them are nops
< 1586462568 564139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, at least, it's a pain working out which of the 8 sequences a given reverse-ASCII sequence is
< 1586462589 336359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be one of the few people who tries to sightread Malbolge, and it's mostly just to confirm it as Malbolge and get a feeling of the shape of the code
< 1586462604 934089 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah
< 1586462606 680037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't gotten very far programming in it, I mostly just help beginners on Stack Overflow
< 1586462617 947344 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you help beginners program malbolge on stackoverflow
< 1586462618 765540 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao
< 1586462627 882249 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also brb I'll be back in a second
< 1586462629 3288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the idea is to fix whatever misconception they had that was making them think it was easier than it actually is, then they give up)
< 1586462640 313467 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1586462663 665691 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess is that command 3100 in BANCStar means that if the condition isn't true then it is an error and you have to rekey the input.
< 1586462685 986409 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This guess is based on how the command is used in the known programs.)
< 1586462732 398174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm just intrigued that BANCStar manages to be /so/ horrible it drives a brainfuck and Malbolge developer away in horror
< 1586462760 178291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess neither brainfuck nor Malbolge was designed to be a bad language (although neither was BANCStar…)
< 1586462769 559342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge was designed to be hard to program in, which is different from being bad
< 1586462789 898901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact goal brainfuck was optimizing for, but it was something related to size or simplicity
< 1586462831 488015 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I read your AIT notes. excellent research! your note say that I1_f uses KO(t|s) but I guess you mean KO(t|s*) ?
< 1586462884 927503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: KO(t|u) is defined in terms of u^* just like Chaitin does.
< 1586462912 334253 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main advantage of my KP is that such a thm with KP(t|s) instead of KP(t|s*) would be rather trivial. Ah, Ok. I thought it better to make the * explicit
< 1586462943 299784 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a bit awkward, but it is what makes the other direction of the symmetry of information tick.
< 1586462971 13881 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator NICK :Rutherfordium
< 1586462975 482010 :Rutherfordium!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator NICK :Bowserinator
< 1586462976 468635 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implicit * is just too confusing though
< 1586462992 465819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, I'm just following Chaitin there.
< 1586462999 591624 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't allow you to express the simple version
< 1586463037 379252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might change it. Maybe.
< 1586463039 306725 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, but I think this is one place where Chaitin should not be followed:)
< 1586463058 764084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opinion noted.
< 1586463059 453598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
> 1586463079 834232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70789&oldid=70768 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10/* Commands */ output
< 1586463117 155034 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like your KO version too. But I'm not ready to replace KP with it. Maybe they should live side by side:-)
< 1586463127 830528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure
< 1586463161 433365 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will get a different halting probability. a simpler one. so that is one point in favor of yours
< 1586463197 46255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaitin's u^* is a bit of a red herring actually... what is essential for the second part of the symmetry of information is knowing both H(u) and u.
< 1586463230 106030 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1586463231 144569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because H(u) gives you a baseline for the probability P(u))
< 1586463378 846723 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, in a fit of optimism (about @w correctness and my manual proofs) I added BB(33) and BB(34) to OEIS
< 1586463388 349651 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :W2 correctness
< 1586463392 698544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the OEIS sequence number?
< 1586463411 639410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, found it, http://oeis.org/A333479
< 1586463412 835073 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://oeis.org/A333479
< 1586463544 393668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sequence grows surprisingly slowly
< 1586463562 98432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least to start with
< 1586463573 866706 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect BB(35) = 38127987424941
< 1586463574 799160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being a busy beaver sequence, it won't be long before it grows at rates too fast to comprehend or describe
< 1586463596 971004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's more like it :-D
< 1586463618 611675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what function is being approximately computed? or is it not easy to tell?
< 1586463628 318244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most small busy beaver numbers "summarize" well
< 1586463630 849451 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have BB(53) being an exponential tower with well over 256 levels
< 1586463650 99140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf "%x" 38127987424941
< 1586463650 989304 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :22ad5d257ead
< 1586463680 351941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: Hmm, are you collecting those lower bounds somewhere?
< 1586463710 768657 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the math overflow has some, and this one I added as note in my OEIS draft
< 1586463724 841795 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just 3^3^3
< 1586463797 154313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 3^₃^₃w
< 1586463798 527935 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :19683 \ true.
< 1586463807 967593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, I associated that wrong
< 1586463827 416658 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :size(church_n) = 5*n+6
< 1586463848 278040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 3^₃;3~^w
< 1586463851 501456 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ false.
< 1586463854 822025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 3^₃,3~^w
< 1586463872 468474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, 3^3^3, of course.
< 1586463886 187062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brachylog isn't very good at reassociating things
< 1586463890 551329 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1586463896 551583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I keep getting , versus ; versus : confused
< 1586463898 514589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 5*3^3^3 + 6
< 1586463900 476262 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 38127987424941
< 1586463906 79025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 3^₂₇w
< 1586463907 488570 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :7625597484987 \ true.
< 1586463920 384347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! brachylog 3^₂₇×₅+₆w
< 1586463921 722528 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :38127987424941 \ true.
< 1586463926 51781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go
< 1586463940 871839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dc <<<'3dd^^5*6+p'
< 1586463941 801609 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :38127987424941
< 1586463945 959797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I figured out there was a pattern from the hexadecimal
< 1586463972 859220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looked a lot like it was something multiplied by 5, based on what digits resulted
< 1586463976 934230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dc <<<'16o3dd^^5*6+p'
< 1586463977 750310 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :22AD5D257EAD
< 1586463978 795029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf "%x" $((38127987424941/5))
< 1586463979 630400 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :6ef79077fbc
< 1586463999 809432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure that helped, now it just looks random :-D
< 1586464041 700444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an advantage... I already knew the 5n+6 part.
< 1586464101 98418 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3-powers are bound to look random in binary:(
< 1586464170 445304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-powers seemed likely to show up before 3-powers, perhaps not though
< 1586464219 697181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on another topic: what does the fastest possible FizzBuzz look like?
< 1586464237 573872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a suspicion that you might not generate it in order
< 1586464254 697729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the aim here is to output the longest FizzBuzz sequence you can in, say, 1 second or 10 seconds)
< 1586464263 132742 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, BB(4) corresponds to 2^2^2^2
< 1586464278 36547 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(34)
< 1586464336 863794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, and that isn't on OEIS yet
< 1586464354 523183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :65536 is possibly the non-small number that most commonly appears in busy beavers
< 1586464372 899668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are a lot of different ways to construct it and it thus appears in a lot of different fast-growing sequences
< 1586464374 138531 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty awesome to have two consecutive comprehensible busy beaver numbers
< 1586464418 473313 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're awaiting approval
< 1586464440 858515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well there's https://oeis.org/draft/A333479
< 1586464509 514542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we can see what you're doing if we want to :)
< 1586464543 326608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh apparently that link format is not easily discoverable without an OEIS account.
< 1586464973 391569 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs describable in 35 bits only reach a busy beaver value of 13 :-(
< 1586465099 865336 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those describable in 46 bits likely reach only 4098
< 1586465157 845572 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs are awkward to program
< 1586465173 990187 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a brainfuck busy beaver would struggle similarly
< 1586465177 187723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by contrast, Brachylog reaches a program whose halting status is unknown in 24 bits
< 1586465214 324380 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds worthy of a blog post!
< 1586465239 380348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/97004/does-the-code-terminate/177438#177438
< 1586465247 738567 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankcs
< 1586465264 878877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you look at how we program TMs in practice, the number of states is a fair measure of program size. There's a lot of messy behavior outside the fragment we actually have a chance of understanding well enough for actual programming.
< 1586465271 9662 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586465328 521368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BLC also has a lot of garbage programs, of course, but the programmable fragment feels bigger.
< 1586465394 197978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can compute 0.291652 now, time for bed.
< 1586465410 20814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :golfing languages aim to maximise the size of the programmable fragment, more or less by definition, so you'd expect them to hit unknown BB values faster
> 1586465417 831599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70790&oldid=70789 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */
< 1586465467 906174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this particular program is weird, though, it's using string operators on numbers and generates the Smarandache sequence
< 1586465494 278543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a weird sequence because every element checked so far is composite, even though there doesn't seem to be any particular reason why it should be
< 1586465617 682917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone did a busy-beaver-like search in number theory, too, and the simplest statement that neither they nor their program could prove true or false was "there are infinitely many prime numbers of the form x²-2"
< 1586465658 33657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the number 0.291652 is from http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/April2020.html )
< 1586465663 489569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that can't easily be converted into a program that searches for a counterexample, you'd need a proof both ways
< 1586465882 184337 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that statement seems no simpler than goldbach's conjecture
< 1586466024 965611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: simpler in terms of the number of primitives needed to express it in the language they were using
< 1586466066 735867 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were able to prove it could not be expressed more concisely?
< 1586466082 437688 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe just by best effort?
< 1586466101 994006 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language was that?
< 1586466228 590621 :mra90!Martin@nat/intel/x-cfjznfrnqplsfvwi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586466232 988908 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be a language with universal and existential quantifiers...
< 1586466980 326392 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586467371 534845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: peano arithmetic with universal and existential quantifiers
< 1586467394 238527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the brute-force search found a few statements that were all effectively equivalent to each other
< 1586467403 206514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was nothing simpler that couldn't be easily proven true or false
> 1586468090 31339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5*  10New user account
> 1586468180 780249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70791&oldid=70788 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5* (+158) 10
< 1586468268 428826 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1586468275 32060 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586468290 939534 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1586468300 997866 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1586468349 37921 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70792&oldid=70741 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5* (+28) 10
< 1586468353 799223 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1586468861 916965 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70793&oldid=70792 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5* (+43) 10/* Hexagony */
< 1586470547 14854 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586470964 270606 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:555f:5c86:5c01:1259 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586471881 786087 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1586472623 696100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:INTERCAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70794&oldid=35649 5* 03Ais523 5* (+287) 10/* Binary operators */ this actually happened
< 1586473659 266336 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1586473662 398349 :noomy!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye!
< 1586473666 517775 :wlp1s1!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1586473789 345730 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586473804 9356 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586473833 401274 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586473935 221754 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1586474008 822265 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586474976 820979 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1586474991 709508 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I didn't run away in horror :p
< 1586475027 519374 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been interrupted three times now so the second has became around 3 hours 
< 1586475069 11569 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :They had three very interesting topic though so I couldn't resist
< 1586475090 897618 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrecking 1300's in chess, chernobyl disaster and my mental health 
< 1586475108 420779 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:5876:4e1c:874:9a27 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1586476042 825207 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user-5-173-140-63.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1586476231 676452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
< 1586476245 314317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1586476532 667448 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:JonoCode937414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70795&oldid=70766 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+20) 10/* Languages I like */