< 1586736107 729901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1586736153 390912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imquk_3oFf4 is pretty impressive. > 1586736374 828889 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Pointless.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70963 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+384) 10Created page with "It might be a good idea to call this "Pointless (Qpliu)" or something to make it more explicit that the language name does not include a literal period. (Potentially, Pointl..." < 1586737845 985412 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does someone play Magic: the Gathering with draft and duplicate sealed both together? < 1586737986 880135 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1586738155 897816 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70964&oldid=68188 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title > 1586738739 5466 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Probie14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70965&oldid=69686 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-8) 10fixed link < 1586738893 694898 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One idea I thought of for Magic: the Gathering, is there is meld to make a single object from two objects, which are then two objects again when it leaves the battlefield, so I thought the other way would be something that causes the card to become two objects once it enters the battlefield, and then moving either or both of them causes it to become a single object again. < 1586739094 579790 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is even more confusing, I think, but perhaps rules can be written which can work. < 1586739304 763877 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought, each half can have different characteristics, timestamps, controller, counters, status, damage, etc, but never different owners or zone. > 1586739684 102137 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PyText?!.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70966&oldid=53077 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+17) 10fixed code block > 1586740089 642591 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Q-Bal10]] to [[Q-BAL]]: fix capitalization > 1586740120 191039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Q-BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70969&oldid=70967 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+0) 10fixed capitalization < 1586740179 710031 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is in case two effects conflict in which zone they are trying to move the two halfs to. < 1586740506 954722 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I think there are solutions to this too. One is the case of replacement effects, in which case the normal rules for replacement effects apply. The other case is if an effect tries to move one half to one zone and the other have to another zone, then it moves to the first zone, and the other half is no longer in the battlefield so the effect fails to find it and fails to move it. < 1586741494 788141 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric > 1586741522 967214 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07QKAS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70970&oldid=45919 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+54) 10fixed links < 1586742362 726940 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1586742378 262183 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric > 1586743090 472011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;vb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70971&oldid=56020 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586743259 801850 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What file formats allow for one file that can be read in multiple formats? < 1586744050 112518 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you explain better what you mean, perhaps? < 1586744367 567406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: you mean like a polyglot? < 1586744393 767701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main restriction is that the two formats can't require conflicting bytes at the same byte position (e.g. magic numbers that clash) < 1586744401 624337 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, like a file format polygot, png and something else for instance. I copuld have sworn I saw one in a book about web securit < 1586744402 631275 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1586744422 439890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, if there isn't something that obviously blocks it like that, you can make it work < 1586744438 438542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember that zip has its header at the end, so zip/something polyglots are common < 1586744490 139213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1586744498 241014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows PE files don't have their header at the beginning, if I remember correctly? < 1586744501 569151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow this format is stupid < 1586744526 809305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the zip file header comes at the end of the file, but its last field is free text (length-prefixed), it's variable length, and the header is at the start < 1586744539 508318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this implies among other things that it's possible to polyglot zip with itself without violating the format < 1586744542 423079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s oyou get an ambiguous zip file < 1586744593 956251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are two headers, one is the "MZ" magic number that has to go at the start but just indicates a DOS/Windows executable in general, there's a second header at a fixed offset that clarifies what sort of executable < 1586744612 425312 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have PNG and ZIP together; I have done that. < 1586744627 86789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe the MZ is still required, which would make sense. < 1586744644 138495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I vaguely remember something about a PE polyglot of some sort. < 1586744658 662544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MZ" is probably short enough to work into a polyglot with something else < 1586744664 360145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :source code, for example < 1586744693 990991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, could you create source code that compiles into itself? < 1586744696 994039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sort of compile-time quine < 1586744719 372052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Treating the compiler as an interpreter. > 1586744765 499194 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rand.Next()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70972&oldid=31579 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586744778 646005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it wouldn't be possible with typical architectures and languages. < 1586744778 780540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could go further and make the resulting executable print itself when actually run, too < 1586744806 528232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that languages have a fixed executable stub, normally, which clearly isn't valid source code < 1586744818 419150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if we're talking about Windows .exe < 1586744831 35961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could generate .com < 1586744831 272688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure what sort of linker magic you'd need to replace it < 1586744837 500578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.com would be a lot easier, yes < 1586744841 352792 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :COM format DOS programs do not have MZ at the beginning; it is x86 instructions. < 1586744865 818717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even that doesn't sound very feasible with most languages. < 1586744891 625576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to start a comment in one or the other language as soon as possible < 1586744942 189340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1586744970 266455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, '/' isn't a valid machine code instruction on x86 < 1586744976 284445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, on x86_64 < 1586744982 517770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.com is 32-bit, though, it might be valid there < 1586745020 436844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, it is < 1586745022 156303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm wrong < 1586745024 614878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.com is 16-bit < 1586745050 830273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/das < 1586745053 583907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "/*" corresponds to DAS followed by the first byte of a SUB instruction < 1586745055 353696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can live with that < 1586745126 914001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually we can't, short of inline asm < 1586745134 375046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess inline asm is acceptable in a challenge like this < 1586745147 398520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or defining main as raw machine code, I guess < 1586745157 11189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought your input would be assembly in the first place. < 1586745163 32393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was thinking C < 1586745170 820042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if very system-specific C < 1586745215 318149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :; is CMP < 1586745302 512475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, I have a 16-bit compiler on this system but it seems to be missing the appropriate libraries to compile to DOS .com < 1586745322 563068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the next question is "why do I have a 16-bit C compiler on this system" but I assume there was a reason at the time < 1586745361 773587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes K&R C as input; again I'm not entirely sure why < 1586745368 881703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in my test program I had to correct "int main(void)" to "int main()" < 1586745387 608210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm cmp eax, [rax] < 1586745388 717253 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :0: 3b 00 cmp eax,DWORD PTR [rax] < 1586745393 141248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat ../bin/asm < 1586745393 957474 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a $b ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err < 1586745423 961829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you want most of the machine code program to be inside a string literal or comment from the point of view of the asm, and most of the asm to be goto'd over from the machine code program < 1586745437 749007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1586745449 913082 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of ; comments in an assembler. < 1586745472 555190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy enough if your language allows unprintable characters in comments, which I was thinking it wouldn't for some reason. < 1586745595 733556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on the lexer more than anything else < 1586745607 271220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many languages even allow unprintables in string literals > 1586745822 205496 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Redivider14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70973&oldid=25372 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+36) 10/* External resources */ fixed link < 1586746109 247306 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is different assembly language for different computer and also different assembly language for the same computer too. < 1586746800 629872 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped. > 1586746837 835318 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Revomer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70974&oldid=20094 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+50) 10/* External resources */ fixed links < 1586746898 337491 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586747509 917154 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still? < 1586747530 166233 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WorldsPlayer .world files always begin with PERSISTER Worlds, Inc. < 1586747536 235017 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and end with END PERSISTER < 1586747667 378128 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: I don't know about ZIP. What I do know though is that you can append a ZIP archive to another file. < 1586747935 26089 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out WorldsPlayer doesn't actually read past END PERSISTER. Thank you zzo38 > 1586748106 543659 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rflct14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70975&oldid=37107 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586748123 575037 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't work < 1586748176 111484 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you're saying this should result in a valid zip? cat WorldsPlayer-956.world WorldsPlayer-956.zip > WorldsPlayer-9567.zip < 1586748247 511737 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although it is possible that some programs might not recognize it. It also might not work if the code that identifies the beginning of a ZIP file is found somewhere inside the WorldsPlayer file (it is "PK\x03\x04") < 1586748369 923177 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the case here, so why isn't it opening < 1586748409 64832 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh maybe because what you said < 1586748448 412735 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another possibility might be that the index at the end of the file requires absolute offsets, although I don't know whether or not that is the case. < 1586748496 5488 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think so; I seem to remember I have once concatenated a PNG and ZIP together and was able to open it with either a PNG or ZIP program just fine. < 1586748683 816187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still? ← yes, the last field of the .zip header (which goes at the end of the file) is "comment", which gives you room to stick another magic number in there < 1586748718 382523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the .zip file header references other parts of the file relative to the /start/ of the file, so a pure concatenation won't work < 1586748730 397176 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...how did unzip work? < 1586748738 380694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can append to a .zip file without rewriting the first part of the file, but that requires small changes to the second part < 1586748754 682368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I misremembered; I don't know < 1586748758 943679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: as far as I can tell from the specification, the format is ambiguous; you can write one file that's valid as a zip file in two different ways < 1586748765 462260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably unzip has to pick one arbitrarily > 1586748766 439982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rogex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70976&oldid=70840 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-181) 10/* Interpreter */ fixed code block < 1586748803 361493 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, maybe different implementations work differently. That is also who I was unable to unzip a PDF/ZIP combination file with one program but another program worked, I suppose. < 1586748942 199951 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning [WorldsPlayer-9567.zip]: 2438 extra bytes at beginning or within zipfile < 1586748942 358350 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : (attempting to process anyway) < 1586749739 35354 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) > 1586750357 345972 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70977&oldid=66898 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5* (+31) 10 < 1586751700 245437 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586752532 211437 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:555f:5c86:5c01:1259 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1586752576 735598 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70978&oldid=65919 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-7) 10This is a little embarrassing (up to 11 verified optimal under 1000 steps and 4998 stack characters > 1586753176 750771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70979&oldid=70978 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-14) 10Trivial improvements > 1586753210 705613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70980&oldid=70979 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-2) 10I swear this is the last one of this round < 1586753248 217897 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:1c6b:a87d:8b4f:2427 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586753798 507338 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1586753805 885366 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ma friendz < 1586753823 863967 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone have a knowledge about angels pls help me! < 1586753922 239434 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaa neeed knowledge about two specific angels < 1586753935 632546 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a voice in my head a man/woman voice speaking to me from depth < 1586753937 895539 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1586753998 251767 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :step two forward and three left and own down to the right < 1586754001 338050 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you? < 1586754019 837409 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats called the flash of lights < 1586754025 919085 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :into the pit > 1586754090 322055 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70981&oldid=70980 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-1) 10Sorry > 1586754108 749476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70982&oldid=70981 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-2) 10Not this again < 1586754305 559865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? esoteric < 1586754310 5658 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet. > 1586754430 858800 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70983&oldid=70982 5* 03Ais523 5* (+37) 10cat; the category is arguably misnamed but it's our usual category for things like this < 1586756079 195228 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have knowledge about angels, and I doubt many people here do, nor do I understand what you are talking about. < 1586756110 667590 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You could try EFnet or DALnet, like the message from HackEso says, I suppose. Maybe they know, and if they don't know either, then I don't know who to ask; sorry.) < 1586756191 919042 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone think something about my idea I mentioned about the Magic: the Gathering? I thought to call it "fission", so, it is a fission card. < 1586756560 226996 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1586756563 945951 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for your help < 1586756923 712464 :Maitor!~goban@gateway/tor-sasl/maitor QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586757064 760342 :Maitor!~goban@gateway/tor-sasl/maitor JOIN :#esoteric < 1586757260 645231 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1586761472 868452 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586761681 787776 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1586762043 617081 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1586762063 990161 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1586762332 3424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586764114 320208 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586765237 903504 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586765354 918486 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Welcome to the international hatchery for [...] egg-plants"? < 1586765366 17029 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with eggplants < 1586765399 300854 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586765842 830166 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch JOIN :#esoteric > 1586767411 495232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70984&oldid=70783 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-843) 10Major cleanup < 1586769816 132611 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586770006 882460 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586770551 86364 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586770834 460218 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586770844 378981 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586770923 96498 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1586771045 987928 :kapilavashtu!~kapilavas@185.3.172.237 JOIN :#esoteric > 1586771815 880266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:GDavid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70985&oldid=57391 5* 03GDavid 5* (+15) 10Stopwatch > 1586772247 619775 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70986&oldid=70578 5* 03GDavid 5* (+17) 10/* Based on dimensions */ < 1586773730 828547 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1586774104 715139 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi what did I miss^W^W^W^W < 1586776063 475829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but the slash doesn't have to be the first byte of the instruction < 1586777109 111088 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586777499 621439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam subject line of the day: "Re: Best human hair" < 1586777659 293915 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586777659 402302 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Changing host < 1586777659 402353 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586778383 320737 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1586779791 984644 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586779815 751647 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 NICK :Guest48241 < 1586781789 900106 :hashtar!~mindor@xdsl-31-164-50-69.adslplus.ch QUIT : > 1586782921 369984 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ser214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70987&oldid=52441 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586785299 832861 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586786228 347360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586786474 983471 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1586787001 972301 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1586787419 783978 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1586788346 230487 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i don't understand the step from line 108 to 109 in latest BB.txt < 1586788376 819875 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i pushed some commits) > 1586789547 159218 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slistp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70988&oldid=20914 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586789689 178873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: this yes, some files can contain fixed strings that help users identify the type of file, but aren't actually read by the reader, so they're optional. < 1586789733 341354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. many of my perl or python scripts start with a shebang line that is not really used for anything but helpful as a programmer < 1586789745 104377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!perl or #!python3 < 1586790086 453365 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't shebangs supposed to be absolute paths? < 1586790109 722888 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you are seeing /bin/env python or the like < 1586790121 14417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: if you want to execute the script directly then yes < 1586790128 804765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't do that, I execute them with perl or python3 < 1586790141 300956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl still reads command-line options from there < 1586790154 47766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and python has a py wrapper that reads the version number (python2 vs python3) and a bit more < 1586790161 55909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really use those features < 1586790170 946306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are just mostly for convenience as a human < 1586790190 206602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the .pl extension is terribly ambiguous < 1586790207 268488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point I wondered if we should just use .pm as the extension of all perl scripts < 1586790403 359424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \x y -> y x < 1586790403 444038 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip id < 1586790419 403880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with Perl and Prolog that's at least three meanings of pl < 1586790435 423667 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too, yes < 1586790441 692887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think there are circumstances under which shebangs work without the / < 1586790451 485884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably depends a lot on the shell and OS < 1586790470 171083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some UNIXes which treat the magic number for an executable as "#! /" (four bytes) < 1586790478 916560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I typically put a space in my shebangs < 1586790487 296242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I think that's an obsolete way of doing it < 1586790487 591063 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know that < 1586790494 233850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never put a space < 1586790523 62995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just like shebang as a human-readable way to declare the type of a file, even to people not familiar with that file format < 1586790546 194878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there are many formats where it doesn't work because they have a magic number at the start < 1586790565 866952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but file formats could be designed such that the magic number isn't at the start, so you can put a short comment at the start < 1586790618 869027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially esoteric file formats < 1586790619 322115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It has been claimed that some old versions of Unix expect the normal shebang to be followed by a space and a slash (#! /), but this appears to be untrue;[citation needed] < 1586790620 333863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that makes things even more interesting < 1586790621 314031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the {{cn}} > 1586790651 410590 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Small14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70989&oldid=62150 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-571) 10rewrapped code blocks < 1586790745 706142 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1586790766 535678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a work-in-progress version of Underlambda I put a shebang /in/ the magic number < 1586790766 535730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was controversial < 1586790767 231472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586790775 73900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does linux even allow a space between the shebang and the interpreter filename, for the purpose of plain execve? < 1586790807 723291 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also, it can be worth to design a file format such that it at least ignores a shebang line < 1586790835 996829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern shell scripts already have that property, as well as perl and python scripts < 1586790840 365175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586790849 651446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I believe it does < 1586790872 930429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the larger reasons for # comments is so that they're shebang-compatible < 1586790875 432921 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: how are you defining busy beaver in BB.txt? < 1586790884 458284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are some languages that don't have # comments, but ignore the first line if it starts with #! < 1586790902 928541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I think that's backwards, the shebang magic bytes were chosen because they're compatible with shell script comments < 1586790960 243292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: can't both be true? < 1586790976 354309 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: see https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form < 1586790980 442400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :new language uses # comments, to be compatible with other tooling that assumes # comments < 1586791095 773224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably, for some new languages < 1586791127 838809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's a pity that C preprocessors don't ignore the #! line, not even if you use a double slash at the start of the path < 1586791153 495171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's probably no way to start a C source file with a shebang < 1586791384 268569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586791458 271078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586791465 74620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not until someone adds an extension to the C preprocessor where #! is a null directive < 1586792015 860526 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: i see, thanks < 1586792031 306321 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? blind alley < 1586792033 394731 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :blind alley? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1586793035 328659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1586793562 142768 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#! just gives me an warning < 1586793590 464163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1586793636 739383 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, that's because I'm using tcc < 1586793651 773366 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I forgot that my "cc" command is tcc < 1586793667 165503 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc throws an error < 1586793712 771747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1586793745 579452 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcc supports shebang lines so you can have executable C "scripts" < 1586793747 94215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you invoke cc ? I always invoke gcc or g++ directly, rather than cc and c++ < 1586793764 73095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586793838 328450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: based on experience with the megapolyglot, we believe the most portable way to start a program is with a "pre-preprocessed #line directive" < 1586793846 691884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which looks like # then a number then a string < 1586793856 229351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for a pre-processed file, sure < 1586793862 75018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-processed C file < 1586793868 385902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you can't use the preprocessor < 1586793875 835250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: most C compilers are happy to accept pre-preprocessed input and will preprocess it a second time < 1586793882 770798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't hurt the polyglot much, but in real world C source files I want to use preprocessor directives < 1586793896 612300 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait really? they just accept a line directive? < 1586793897 201866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1586793901 536223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as are, oddly, many implementations for languages other than C, even if they don't normally use the C preprocessor < 1586793903 635796 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean an output line directive < 1586793936 462161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, just tested < 1586793957 709168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1586793959 419079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :# 1 "hello.c" \ int main(void) { \ puts("Hello, world!"); \ } < 1586793973 452526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiled under gcc I get a warning for "hello.c" even though the file is named something else, about the implicit definition of puts < 1586793980 100386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the resulting executable works fine < 1586793984 814265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, that doesn't actually have a preprocessor directive like #include after the line directive < 1586794010 643260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I added a preprocessor directive, and it was honoured < 1586794014 920247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1586794028 194427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not surprising, how would it know to turn the preprocessor off when it encountered the compiled-#line? < 1586794053 951747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I just expected that the output preprocessor line would give an error in the preprocessor < 1586794065 287461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works in clang too: https://tio.run/#c-clang < 1586794067 499052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1586794074 95435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tio.run/##S9ZNzknMS///X1nBUEEpIzUnJ18vWYlLOSU1LTMvVaG4pLRAoaC0pJgrM69EITcxM0@jLD8zRVOhmksBLKmh5AHSo6NQnl@Uk6KopGnNVcv1/z8A < 1586794102 265321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tcc: https://tio.run/##S9YtSU7@/19ZwVBBKSM1JydfL1mJSzklNS0zL1WhuKS0QKGgtKSYKzOvRCE3MTNPoyw/M0VToZpLASypoeQB0qOjUJ5flJOiqKRpzVXL9f8/AA < 1586794108 16609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've run out of C compilers to check on TIO now, though < 1586794237 616147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, for ages the polyglot started with a compiled-#line directive then /* < 1586794252 468367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which causes a huge number of languages to temporarily suspend the parser < 1586794255 808105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://rextester.com can compile with MSVC :-) < 1586794277 155195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the filename was chosen to put lots of esolangs into a comment / string literal / large jump, too) < 1586794324 656556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :source_file.c(1): error C2019: expected preprocessor directive, found '1' < 1586794326 194129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1586794349 320719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what version of MSVC it runs though < 1586794352 334617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it wouldn't be the first time MSVC didn't follow a de-facto standard that nonetheless wasn't an actual standard < 1586794359 514153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 19.00.23506 for x64 < 1586794375 24598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's recent < 1586794375 773782 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1586794546 968862 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah when I compile things I use cc typically, i think because one of my first computers had gcc installed as "cc" and didn't accept a "gcc" command < 1586794560 151139 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1586794603 464929 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's really weird is now you see people with clang installed as "gcc" < 1586794635 14201 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not too weird, clang is pretty closely compatible to gcc < 1586794707 847932 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what that means is, "gcc" has become so intrenched as "the command to compile stuff" < 1586794736 886425 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc has been forgoten, even though it's one less letter to type < 1586794752 472217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because before linux and gcc got so spread, there were computers with separate cc and gcc commands. that's why autoconf scripts try gcc first, before cc < 1586794781 468712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also now there's c99 as a command name too < 1586794797 529599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of POSIX or something like that < 1586794847 211048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: my first UNIXish environment had cc as provided by the OS manufacturer, it wasn't gcc < 1586794878 868137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also had c99 but I didn't discover that for ages, and it was presented as though it were an entirely separate program from cc (although of course they probably shared a lot of code) < 1586794903 571697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I still think of cc as being "the OS stock C compiler" and gcc as being a specific C compiler < 1586794914 71685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on Linux, assume that the two are the same, as gcc is the standard C compiler on Linux < 1586794920 221365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but this doesn't hold on other Unices) < 1586794949 731101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as glibc is also the standard on linuxes, but it might be one of the other brands of libc that imitate glibc < 1586794974 291482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gcc" on Mac OS X is normally actually clang, isn't it, nowadays? < 1586794998 302788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm interested in what "cc" typically is on BSD < 1586795016 387135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :may depend on which BSD < 1586795035 21341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering about that < 1586795075 883212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that BSD doesn't get more attention, actually; it's a perfectly solid OS and for most programs, it's very comparable to Linux, with easy porting both ways < 1586795132 601934 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware compatibility, probably < 1586795168 371019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sort-of makes sense, I assume it has a smaller community of driver-writers < 1586795184 469850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect the hardware compatibility to be at least decent on older machines, though < 1586795304 468132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that BSD doesn't get much attention because it's non-proselytizing, or however that word is called, that is, there is a small community of people who use BSD, but they aren't actively trying to convince other people to also use BSD, whereas Linux fanatics try to convince people to use Linux all the time < 1586795341 669117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when programmers proselytize, they often do so by writing code to make things more user-friendly < 1586795353 605 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gozqrwsxdmwuenlw JOIN :#esoteric < 1586795382 117977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the good kind, yes < 1586795493 642368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I think it's also that at least some BSD activity focuses on using BSD in servers and routers and the like < 1586795518 517036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than workstations or mobile phones < 1586795540 109415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, assuming you aren't on Windows: http://localhost:631 < 1586795552 87219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind-of hope that thing's firewalled by default < 1586795586 838699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at https://www.pcbsd.org , they used to brand themselves as a FreeBSD variant useful as a desktop environment for ordinary home users, but the distribution has disappeared or got renamed, and they now target servers < 1586795600 829599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's one way to make a semi-major part of an operating system OS-independent but it still seems really weird < 1586795602 94163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that the printer server? < 1586795629 524812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have anything running on that port here < 1586795652 497188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes < 1586795660 700109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even has Apple branding < 1586795665 800052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite me being on Linux < 1586795703 209353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to contain a list of everything I've ever printed, too < 1586795715 895588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although I hardly ever print things so it's quite short) < 1586796564 798596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder what the greatest proportion of the set of all bytestrings is, such that after all common sorts of encoding-related damage, the original string can be uniquely reconstructed < 1586796597 915162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously sticking to printable ASCII survives all common forms of encoding-related damage, but I think you safely can expand this into some of the control codes and high-bit-set characters < 1586796619 771908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not all of them, because you need to be able to, e.g., distinguish an unchanged source from mojibake) > 1586796687 466465 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Stacked Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70990&oldid=39483 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+36) 10/* Implementation */ fixed link < 1586796731 1559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may depend on what you count as encoding-related. does word-wrapping count? HTML turning whitespace sequences to single spaces? < 1586796753 885916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :old forums that output HTML from wiki-like input that change some spaces to nbsp? < 1586796887 39436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all those examples count < 1586796895 659273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sticking to printable ASCII is not in fact enough < 1586796905 754573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another encoding-related issue that can happen in printable ASCII: & becoming &) < 1586796950 219597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, that too < 1586796978 719040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the case of stray = signs from quoted-printable < 1586796988 996079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can affect even input that's entirely alphanumeric < 1586796999 990050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it count when web thingies replace anything with an @ sign in it with some javascript email address protection thing? when twitter or twitch chat replaces anything with a dot in it with a http hyperlink? < 1586797003 983208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ASCII/EBCDIC misinterpretation, I guess, although that isn't common nowadays < 1586797034 534698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the former of those is done by Cloudflare under some circumstances, isn't it? < 1586797038 115464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it very common < 1586797043 959230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter is also frequently seen < 1586797056 409265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've first seen it on the FSF's mailing list archive web interface < 1586797068 805205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another related issue: ASCII sequences that look like emoticons being replaced with Unicode or even -tag-based smileys) < 1586797087 675912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh right, mailing list archives do that too < 1586797088 918996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, Mibbit < 1586797107 114992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as some phpbb, and in fact twitch chat too now that I think of it < 1586797131 646919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the :D to a smiley in Data::Dumper, turning :) and :-) to the same thing < 1586797212 413156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII-as-UTF-16 misinterpretation has to be pretty rare < 1586797217 627323 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also some wordpress-based web comment forms that turn ascii double quotes to fancy quotes < 1586797230 883718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although didn't Notepad do that once? < 1586797250 457039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts < 1586797261 664265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that usually happens backwards, reading an utf-16 file as if it was some ascii-compatible encoding and adding nul bytes between < 1586797324 132380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes but in that case it's normally really obvious what happened < 1586797347 328560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see a file that looks like ASCII but there's a NUL byte every other byte, you can typically figure out what went wrong even if you've never heard of UTF-16 < 1586797359 993764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and some formats, like VT-100, ignore NUL, so the file will even appear to work) < 1586797360 313771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I didn't know about that one < 1586797369 161673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming it has no non-ASCII characters) < 1586797398 515941 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually yes. not if I just try to run a grep command, get no matches, and forget that the file is utf-16 encoded < 1586797417 252019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happened to me a few times recently < 1586797482 840710 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1586797564 90483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode U+0D0A < 1586797567 90927 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ഊ < 1586797579 287214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that seems wrong < 1586797581 677414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 0D0A < 1586797582 665318 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ഊ < 1586797600 374870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ഊ < 1586797601 451231 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+0D0A MALAYALAM LETTER UU] < 1586797609 173509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not < 1586797618 526317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading blog posts about the Notepad misdetection < 1586797639 936235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one of them mentions that the CRLF character is explicitly illegal in Unicode, presumably to make detection easier < 1586797642 433573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just lying though? < 1586797646 251344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode 0A0D < 1586797647 95440 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​਍ < 1586797656 675893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's also some encoding-related garbage that you can get from perl's encoding io layer, which is somehow messed up in more than one way < 1586797662 615380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps it only detects it that way round < 1586797675 157900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be weird to have such a detection for one endianness but not the other < 1586797702 674566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is one argument to prefer UTF16-LE over UTF16-BE < 1586797710 328029 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, on windows with a native win32 perl, when I try to write a file with layer :encoding(utf-16-le):crlf , I get garbage. no, it doesn't just output the crlf wrong, it outputs everything wrong after some point in the file. > 1586797722 590412 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70991&oldid=70882 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+134) 10/* Languages */ < 1586797727 248198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :many years ago I saw the encoding layer cause to output some lines twice. < 1586797735 998112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how does that compare to :crlf:encoding(utf-16-le)? < 1586797753 826186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect at least one of those to replace all the 0x0D bytes in the Unicode encoding with 0x0D/0x0A pairs, which would throw off the byte pairing < 1586797765 214122 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't recall the details, I think it's just :encoding(utf-16-le) that's buggy, because :crlf is the default < 1586797783 332615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a workaround is to use :raw:encoding(utf-16-le) and then put crlf at the end of my lines manually < 1586797823 500648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it isn't just messed up in any of those trivial ways, and the output that I tried to write is mostly ascii < 1586797840 94585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really try to isolate the bug, I just gave up < 1586797843 712518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and worked it around < 1586797854 731661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also trying to move away for perl, not only for this reason < 1586797865 639732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, the blog post later discuses the MALAYALAM LETTER UU issue < 1586797880 254752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what are you planning to move onto? < 1586797905 383638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: python3. I already have a csv reader and writer in python, and a lot of more specific scripts related to work. < 1586797933 597281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually I should make a patched python3 that adds extra syntax so I can write python in a single line, useful for command-line or IRC < 1586797956 879364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be done in a sane backwards compatible way, I already have a candidate for the syntax < 1586797967 140373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm considering looking for alternatives to Perl, however I dislike Python and don't consider it a reasonable alternative for me < 1586797970 310944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally should get that thing into vanilla python, because I'm not the only one who's missing that feature < 1586797982 821841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not getting my hope up < 1586798013 551860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's a pure syntax extension, so the modified python would be compatible with all existing python code, which is the whole point < 1586798023 359384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: any specific reason why you dislike python < 1586798040 721648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one advantage of python is that the standard library is more suited to native windows < 1586798070 573271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not perfectly suited, it's still written by unix programmers, but you don't have to install CPAN modules to open files with non-ascii filenames or any of that nonsense < 1586798090 559765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think the largest design flaw is to have a language where values carry types, with strong restrictions on how types can be combined + context-sensitive overloading, /but/ no static typing < 1586798120 908451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Perl started to move in that direction over time with operator overloading, at least most packages keep the normal meanings of the operators < 1586798138 506455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ and * in Python can do two unrelated things based on where the arguments come from < 1586798142 830983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want static typing, there's always rust and C++, and you can mix them with python just as you can with perl < 1586798150 365424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! python print("2" + 3) < 1586798151 251400 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/python: No such file or directory > 1586798156 374515 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70992&oldid=70984 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+275) 10 < 1586798171 261780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 t.py < 1586798172 330971 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :python3: can't open file 't.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory < 1586798176 967263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/tt.py < 1586798177 870184 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :python3: can't open file '/tmp/tt.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory < 1586798179 157536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py < 1586798180 104640 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/t.py", line 1, in \ print("2" + 3) \ TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "int") to str < 1586798185 440692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print("2" * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py < 1586798186 436005 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :222 < 1586798191 105360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'print(2 * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py < 1586798192 96898 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 < 1586798213 520673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's this big distinction between "2" and 2 in how they behave, and code will only be correct for one or the other < 1586798231 462704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't find that too much of a problem, but ok, that's a good specific answer < 1586798234 155421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no sensible way to have this checked automatically < 1586798249 199102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl doesn't have this problem because "2" and 2 act very similarly in any numeric context < 1586798250 456806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand why you'd want different names for the concat and repeat operators < 1586798256 321937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, indeed, in any string context < 1586798278 263481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can distinguish them if you really want to, but normally you don't want to < 1586798298 803104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this has lead to bugs in practice < 1586798307 252592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Python program I most often use is the Jelly interpreter < 1586798310 370222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but in python, "2" and 2 never act similarly, so this generally doesn't cause confusion < 1586798318 426348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like in C < 1586798344 330015 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the only time when they act similarly is if you pass them to the int or float constructor < 1586798348 232340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it leads to programs like the following quine: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9R4z4gerhjCRD9/w8A < 1586798354 435165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't even valid Jelly but the interpreter doesn't notice < 1586798381 83966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the confusion is the lack of a type error when passing a value of the wrong type < 1586798407 173642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other things I dislike are the way it does variable declarations, and the whitespace-sensitivity < 1586798456 997142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the package manager, but cpan the package managing software isn't all that great either (I'm fine with CPAN the repository, though, and with cpanm) < 1586798486 978769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, but it doesn't occur often. the + operator for add vs concatenation, the * operator for multiplication vs repeat, the str function semi-pretty-printing things, int and float converting numbers or parsing strings, plus the [] operator for arrays vs dictionaries, those are about the only cases when this happens < 1586798498 602641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time when I pass the wrong type of value, I get an error < 1586798518 823192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ⁾⁾ḤḤ quine exploits the second case < 1586798532 154364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for variable declarations and whitespace sensitivity, those complaints I do understand < 1586798536 937958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :⁾ creates a 2-character string, and a string in Jelly is an array of characters < 1586798537 575454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to fix the whitespace sensitivity < 1586798551 85370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably don't want to fix variable declarations, though there could be an extension fixing that < 1586798553 261409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it creates the string ⁾Ḥ < 1586798560 882827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then Ḥ doubles a number, or all numbers in an array < 1586798561 873858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, Julia's rules for variable declarations are way worse than python's IMO < 1586798567 189900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can guess what happened next :-D < 1586798590 472172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, gtg < 1586798592 895483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1586798705 81412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more likely in that crazy esolang idea that I'll probably never develop, the configurable one where you can choose between APL order and C order and even more for function calls, I'd have 2*2 options for how variable declarations and scoping work, as in 2 for explicit my and implicit nonlocal vs explicit nonlocal and implicit my, and if/while/for creating a scope vs if/while/for not creating a scope < 1586798774 154044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and allow to toggle those lexically within a scope < 1586799456 251206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586799859 846706 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586800276 7819 :Guest48241!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586800785 562338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: hmm, what's the issue with that step from line 108 to 109? It splits X^V' into W^V' and B^V', expands W^V'[v := X^V] as before and B^V' using the undyction hypothesis? < 1586800820 770413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586800822 982969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, "undyction" is beautiful. < 1586800893 377726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586801122 761661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Excess Flood < 1586801149 338419 :Guest48241!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586801209 260544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586801543 16780 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: induction on size of term in B^V' ? < 1586801642 863022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I'm treating B^V = H[W^V X^V] = H[W^V (W^V u B^V)] as the inductive definition of B^V. < 1586801654 963318 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: But yes, induction on the size will work as well. < 1586801683 262596 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: it's proper because while H may be empty, we take at least one W^V off. < 1586801687 564055 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i'll add an intermediate line = H[W^V'[v := X^V] (W^V'[v := X^V] ∪ B^V'[v := X^V]) ] to make the steps clearer < 1586801750 766835 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny that we both added an nf[_]size command. < 1586801862 82951 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only did so after you mentioned it (but before checking the repo) < 1586805006 31059 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially if I wanted to write a JIT or AOT compiler based on my current interpreter in JAva < 1586805020 798073 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I target java bytecode, C, x86 assembly, llvm... ? < 1586805050 340837 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586805059 830650 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really sure because I don't want to kill portability Java offers and overload my program with unnecessary external libraries or programs < 1586805069 576932 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homestuck music update! < 1586805073 888162 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 NICK :Guest51731 < 1586805090 888776 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, there are advantages and disadvantages in each case. < 1586805159 331570 :Guest48241!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586805181 972913 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I think < 1586805188 136865 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't make a decision really < 1586805196 53321 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may go with Java bytecode < 1586805199 35221 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you intending to run this. < 1586805210 955714 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is this like a brainfuck interpreter? < 1586805211 499080 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I'll have to clog my program with BCEL < 1586805234 924015 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, said that already, I want it as portable as possible; and this is a brainfuck interpreter now, but I can eaisly transform it into a compiler < 1586805315 88511 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C code may be more portable, or a simple code using an emulation < 1586805332 190057 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you haven't said it in my logs, so I don't think asking is out of the question. < 1586805346 151244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: if you're writing in Java, then Java bytecode may be a good target format, as the Java runtime will JIT that once you generate it < 1586805347 717987 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want portability, yeah, you can hardly beat Java. < 1586805355 237598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you basically have a platform-independent JIT < 1586805372 169711 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want _actual_ portability, compile it to C. every platform has a C compiler at some point. < 1586805378 724124 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1586805383 867284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at work I use a library called ASM (confusingly) to generate Java bytecode at runtime < 1586805391 968580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is a good target language if you want AOT rather than JIT < 1586805393 315344 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go with BCEL instaed < 1586805402 666436 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about performance < 1586805405 951346 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and optimization < 1586805428 433060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C compiler optimizers are pretty good nowadays, although I can normally beat them programming by hand < 1586805443 637813 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C may be orders of magnitude more performant than Java < 1586805448 103651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, the workings of modern computers are confusing, and optimizing for speed is really counterintuitive sometimes < 1586805459 204729 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on your knowledge on the platforms < 1586805466 674862 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cache lines, instruction alignment < 1586805474 215319 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all becomes logical at certain point < 1586805483 715377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :out-of-order execution has a much larger impact than instruction alignment < 1586805491 339156 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah this too < 1586805500 237188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it interacts with caching in weird ways < 1586805574 555027 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I'm going with java < 1586805581 460039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while ago, to test out my optimization skills, I decided to aim for the following challenge: given a simple (inlinable) function that generates a continuous stream of bytes in a way that doesn't take up much of the CPU's time < 1586805587 479530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :write the resulting bytes to memory as quickly as possible < 1586805593 473853 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, C, Java. I plan to compile something into Python (as for programs written in it it’s pretty logical; there’s a module to work with its own AST and a function for compiling it) < 1586805594 475394 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thikn computers should be designed less confusing < 1586805621 245749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took a lot of attempts and experimentation to find an optimal (or as optimal as I could get it) solution, but I beat the C compilers fairly quickly < 1586805622 146073 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :python doesn't seem like a good target < 1586805637 292160 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is hard to optimize by the compiler < 1586805642 11732 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even reassociate math < 1586805647 927158 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also allow it to support multiple targets < 1586805649 195731 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without changing behaviour of some snippets < 1586805663 287806 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, not today, that's too much effort :P, I'll maybe support C later on < 1586805670 679559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for people who are wondering, take a couple of 128-bit registers, store intermediate results there, and then write them using nontemporal writes; this is fastest even though GPR→vector register copies are documented as slow) < 1586805692 899970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oddly, this was fastest even though the CPU had 256-bit registers available) < 1586805714 890405 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always cheering to see a fellow assembly programmer < 1586805715 607127 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : python doesn't seem like a good target => for production code, I more or less agree, but for quick proof-of-concept things why not < 1586805731 18513 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ yeah, for a proof of concept python is sufficient < 1586805753 51611 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly programmers are magicians < 1586805776 511119 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge programmers are true magicians < 1586805788 957833 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as any true magician, an assembly master is a rare sight < 1586805789 163937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't write in asm much, but I think it's an important language to know, especially when trying to work out how to write the quickest possible code < 1586805806 63690 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seducers, thiefs, simonists < 1586805809 20137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider asm to be a fairly easy language to write (if you aren't aiming for performance), incidentally, it's just really time-consuming < 1586805824 931608 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1586805841 374009 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : Malbolge programmers are true magicians => hmhm maybe they are abstract theoretical magicians then, and assembly ones, practicing ones ;D < 1586805841 857955 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing my Assembly implementation for the Seed generator has been a quite long process > 1586805848 392253 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Indent14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70993&oldid=70947 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+12) 10/* Examples */ < 1586805855 876251 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it took around 2 days to get it up and running < 1586805860 347441 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you check the code btw? < 1586805866 205001 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm always up for some optimization tips < 1586805905 375470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at it but didn't really read it < 1586805923 3371 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit > 1586806048 669357 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70994&oldid=70146 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+16) 10Removed redirect to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] < 1586806164 725987 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though in view of wanting to call myself a bit of a magician too I need to postulate Haskell-or-other programmers should be magicians too, just of a school almost incompatible in its workings to an assembly ones. It’s even plain to see: an assembly magician assembles (with others) and a haskell one, well, “has call”, which might mean that they can talk to one another at a distance, which is quite a good trait these times. I’ll s < 1586806164 859927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :how myself out < 1586806222 477398 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are different assembly language for different computers and VMs, so you might know one way better than other one. < 1586806225 649430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1586806363 443648 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used the assembly language of 6502, MIX, MMIX, Glulx, Z-machine, and maybe a few others < 1586806408 890345 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to write a text adventure game, you may want to learn Glulx or Z-machine programming; there are some tricks I have figured out < 1586806650 404633 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586806701 572609 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infocom put in some features in Z-machine that they then didn't use. And then, there are many other tricks they didn't consider, such as the SET->BCOM optimization, etc. So, if you write programs for Z-machine, then you can learn this, please. > 1586806974 973646 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tttt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70995&oldid=67806 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-19) 10/* the symbols */ Fixing your ordered list so it is legible > 1586807744 319297 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70996 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+8045) 10+[[Elevated Parser]] > 1586807747 255658 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70997&oldid=70961 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+22) 10+[[Elevated Parser]] > 1586807750 245414 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70998&oldid=70991 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+38) 10+[[Elevated Parser]] < 1586807918 657571 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which instruction set and what CPU were you writing the program you mentioned is fastest? > 1586807932 456244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70999&oldid=70996 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+11) 10/* Processing abstract syntax tree */ < 1586808070 715274 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1586808095 755066 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71000&oldid=70999 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10 > 1586808209 143964 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71001&oldid=71000 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2) 10 > 1586808259 863531 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Elevated Parser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71002&oldid=71001 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10 < 1586808526 339654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" < 1586808536 478665 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gozqrwsxdmwuenlw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1586808545 378136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I clicked "Cancel" rather than "Ok" and then wondered why nothing happened. < 1586808674 613455 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't very good, they should write (Y/N) instead < 1586808769 630699 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cancelled the cancelling < 1586808804 364039 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with zzo38, that isn't very good < 1586808882 466941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is github btw, when cancelling editing of a comment.) < 1586808912 640308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But are those labels provided by the JS code or by the browser, hmm.) < 1586808934 667590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww @xkcd < 1586809016 216832 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :can a cell cancel < 1586809099 790880 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is in the browser and is provided by a JavaScript prompt() function, then that isn't a problem, since they just have to make the expectation (although maybe they should put labels true/false). If it is a confirmation the browser puts by itself, perhaps due to an altered but not yet submitted form (this would be a better way, subject to user configuration), then it should use better writing. < 1586809315 818770 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this xkcd is poetic. A glider ensouled takes into the sky and expands the boundaries of life < 1586809405 956032 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe it doesn’t quite reach the surreal, and that’s a pity < 1586809794 303582 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty good < 1586809852 627331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what do you want, the glider breaking out of the frame and psychedelic rainbow colors when the glider hits the edge of the browser window? < 1586809894 843612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the former would be kind of cute, but hard to do with just an animated gif :) ) < 1586809942 435959 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmmm the idea is nice but I don’t know if it would be linked to surreal numbers by many < 1586810049 968003 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of thought it would break out of the frame < 1586810134 367223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong, this isn't actually happening on github (which phrases the message differently); it's just its sibling, gist. < 1586810299 939544 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Can't reproduce? Maybe my brain read something that wasn't there. In that case... let me get back on the project of detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening. < 1586810485 415824 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PART :#esoteric < 1586810575 389388 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? int-e < 1586810576 699968 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. < 1586810580 930311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586810600 120213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if I should continue reading the HTML spec, it just continues to get weirder and weirder < 1586810602 559059 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yes I still haven’t learned this language < 1586810628 161105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, it uses the three-word phrase "will declaratively refresh" as though it were a single-word noun < 1586810646 930150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "If document's will declaratively refresh is true, then return." < 1586810661 576033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Yes, it is mentioned in there. < 1586810695 349030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, given that most of the document is written in pseudocode, I'm not even sure I can argue that this is wrong because variable names can be anything without changing the meaning < 1586810717 16042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd have thought that reasonable programs would try to use something less unwieldy < 1586810814 990475 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: (could you maybe try the Moon first? If it’ll be sufficient then at least someone will still have the Sun) < 1586810910 694517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: No, the whole point of this endeavour is to be thorough. < 1586810931 931875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin. ;) < 1586810941 773245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but the Sun may be not enough < 1586810960 176849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: True, true. < 1586810974 600785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: However you should make up your mind about what you want. < 1586811003 458477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" ← I'm having problems working out a good interface for that, especially because by the normal interface guidelines, /both/ buttons should say "Cancel" < 1586811014 153585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is assuming that there's no easy way to undo the cancel once it's started) < 1586811024 240662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise, you just cancel and have an "undo cancel" button, which is 100% clear) < 1586811031 847636 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so I need to distract you with blowing up Sagittarius A* after all < 1586811042 939472 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ < 1586811077 744246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be a fun question for the user interface design stack exchange < 1586811091 957868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think nowadays my main usage of stack exchange is asking ridiculously hard questions that I don't expect there to be a good answer to < 1586811097 311063 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think (Y/N) is best, but that is not applicable to HTML. I suggested displaying true/false if the confirm() function is used. < 1586811105 290701 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since, those are the return values of the confirm() function. < 1586811113 442282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nothing is lost if I'm right, but something amazing often happens when I'm wrong, so the overall expectation is very positive) < 1586811129 902108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm really miffed about not being able to reproduce it, and not knowing whether it's a corner case or something I just imagined. < 1586811168 28422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough to go diving into github's code, but it's kind of a close call. < 1586811271 908764 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I tried to cancel editing my own comment now at my gist, and it asks “Are you sure you want to discard your unsaved changes?” with OK and Cancel (translated) buttons < 1586811293 571528 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it what you think you have seen? < 1586811388 442532 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, btw the browser is Firefox and the dialog is seemingly by Firefox, so it should be a standard JS function being used, yep < 1586811439 434000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: That is what I'm seeing when I try to reproduce the problem :P < 1586811458 725167 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah sorry < 1586811464 488300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: But it's not what I thought I saw. < 1586811481 534011 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Don't worry. It's nice to get *something* right. :P < 1586811495 617454 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though at least what you see instead is more reproducible that it was known prior < 1586811557 965704 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: *something* right => then not the Sun, Sagittarius A* > 1586811788 255056 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71003&oldid=70994 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+859) 10 < 1586811869 719917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Nah, I also try to keep my goals realistic. If I'm to shoot at stars, I'll start with the Sun. < 1586811905 959694 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I have some time to dissuade you < 1586811944 183870 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps so, but all you're accomplishing is to strengthen my resolve. < 1586812144 494046 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm it came to my mind if I blow up Sgt A* first (and in the right way), you woudn’t get a chance with the Sun… hm < 1586812208 73889 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though this is a goal no less distant to me too, so I’m just musing alound < 1586812258 464720 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though no, I should pick Betelgeuse < 1586812278 852537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter? < 1586813412 135166 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A table on the Internet says that in the Bambara language (which is "mostly written in the Latin script") those are Awɔ and Ayi respectively. But another dictionary page writes the yes as "ɔwɔ", and there is an uppercase Ɔ as well, so maybe not. It does seem to be a different vowel, at least. < 1586813658 676853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Hawaiian ʻae (yes) and ʻaʻole (no) might count. (I don't know any of these languages, just guessing.) < 1586814016 637551 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586814175 322830 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586814183 290639 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1586814585 718926 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The user interface guidelines are perhaps no good then. What is done in vi is better, you must type :q! if you want to discard your changes, if you type :q and there are unsaved changes, it tell you that you must type :q! instead if you want to discard the unsaved changes or :w to save changes, or :wq to save and quit. < 1586815396 936285 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586816715 607242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's a good solution for a command-line interface < 1586816769 758605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the best dialog button names I can think of for this are "Confirm cancel" and "Continue, don't cancel" < 1586816862 793357 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps "discard" and "continue editing" (and possibly also "save changes") < 1586817018 921955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if it's just for an editor, then yes, that's the standard < 1586817136 185892 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. For other things, there is other stuff. Such as, if an operating is processing and then will be completed by itself in time, to put: Copying interrupted. Push space to resume copying or ^C to cancel copying. < 1586818088 668638 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the overspill for reconnaissance should be you can look at the top card of any player's regular pile. < 1586818225 857005 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You cannot look at the card underneath the top card even if you have more than one reconnaissance, but if you have two reconnaissances then you can look at both your own and your opponent's card.) < 1586818849 309168 :Guest51731!~Phantom@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1586819131 301809 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586820039 94009 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1586822328 783571 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds