←2020-04-26 2020-04-27 2020-04-28β†’ ↑2020 ↑all
00:01:09 <Train> zzo38, I got the first part of the minsky engine working
00:01:21 <Train> now i just need instruction handling
00:09:19 <zzo38> OK
00:13:54 <Train> https://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH is very similar to TrainCode
00:30:57 <pikhq> Malbolge is kinda interesting just by way of picking the least convenient option for each and every design decision that came up.
00:31:56 <pikhq> It's possible to make something more just straight-up weird I imagine, but I imagine not much less _useable_ without making serious sacrifices in theoretical capabilities.
00:32:05 <Train> Yeah.
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00:56:32 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71441&oldid=66839 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Program structure */ Spelling error
01:15:40 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71442&oldid=71346 * IFcoltransG * (+233) Clarifications and filling in missing sections
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01:22:36 <TrainCode> Gudday!
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01:35:22 <pikhq> hum
01:35:41 <pikhq> hard to have a conversation with someone who isn't here, isn't it? :P
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01:41:36 <zzo38> Yes, I would think so. But you can still write, if you have something to write, I suppose.
01:42:56 <TrainCode> And we can see what you have said through the logs.
01:44:22 <TrainCode> So you can still have a conversation with them.
01:44:38 <TrainCode> _test_
01:46:53 <pikhq> lmao
01:46:59 <pikhq> yeah, i suppose that's true
01:47:31 * pikhq shall have to act as though people can read her words without being present
01:48:34 <pikhq> I forgot this channel has people who catch up on goings-on while absent by reading the public logs xd
01:48:39 <pikhq> It's been a while, admittedly
01:48:46 <TrainCode> I do what.
01:48:48 <TrainCode> *that.
01:48:54 <TrainCode> Is that weird?
01:52:39 <pikhq> No, it's actually culturally normal _here_. I think this is the only channel I've been in where it's all that common though.
01:53:01 <TrainCode> hack.chat/?programming has it happen a lot
01:53:14 * pikhq shrugs
01:58:18 <fizzie> It's kind of uncommon on Freenode.
01:58:42 <pikhq> I suppose it's not that surprising given the logs in the topic though
01:58:52 <pikhq> Which has been a thing for... ages?
01:59:15 <pikhq> Think that was there even back when I first joined. ... god, like 15 years ago
02:00:13 <TrainCode> On hackchat, most people have some sort of logger bot.
02:00:28 <TrainCode> Because the server doesn't store chatlogs.
02:00:39 <pikhq> I connect via a bouncer these days
02:01:07 <TrainCode> Paranoid much?
02:01:37 <pikhq> Hrm?
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02:02:29 <pikhq> The bouncer is being used for always-on and having shared client state between multiple systems, not for privacy reasons really
02:02:53 <TrainCode> Okay.
02:03:04 <zzo38> Freenode server doesn't store chat logs either I think; there is the bots to store the logs. (It is possible though to make a IRC server that does make public logs of public channels, although most don't.)
02:03:28 <pikhq> Better not be for privacy, seeing as "pikhq" is what I go by basically everywhere and you can pretty trivially find where in the world I live and where I work from there :)
02:04:25 <TrainCode> Hey, do you guys wanna talk on a hackchat?
02:05:22 <fizzie> Ooh, we have indeed had public logs for quite awhile.
02:05:26 <fizzie> [2003-01-18 02:49:02] < hcf> lament: would you like clog to log #esoteric?
02:05:26 <fizzie> [2003-01-18 02:50:58] < lament> i'm not sure. clog would talk more than an average regular :)
02:05:41 <TrainCode> Wow...
02:06:16 <pikhq> So, uh, given that you can probably find out a _lot_ of stuff about me if you're willing to pour over logs long enough :P
02:06:36 <pikhq> Or, more accurately, about teenage-to-early-college me mostly
02:07:50 * pikhq has, admittedly, grown and changed a fair bit since the now long gone year of 2005
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02:11:55 <TrainCode> Hey, do you guys wanna meet me on https://hack.chat/?esolangs
02:14:18 * pikhq doesn't particularly care to, but πŸ€·πŸ»β€β™€οΈ
02:15:52 <TrainCode> I like hackchat more. It just feels... polished, ya know?
02:16:27 <pikhq> I'm rather fond of my client
02:16:39 <TrainCode> What OS are you running?
02:17:11 <pikhq> This system is Windows, though my client is IRCCloud, which is useable from a lot of systems
02:17:25 <TrainCode> Do you have Chrome?
02:17:33 <TrainCode> Or python?
02:17:39 <TrainCode> Or nodejs?
02:18:09 <pikhq> Currently I'm using Firefox; I do have a Python interpreter or 3 installed here, but I don't have Node because I really don't touch JS stuff
02:18:21 <pikhq> I've also got a _few_ C compilers at my ready...
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02:19:09 <pikhq> Lessee, we've got MSVC, Windows-targetting clang, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting gcc, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting clang, and x86_64-linux-musl targetting gcc...
02:19:50 <pikhq> Not to mention, a couple Rust installs
02:20:46 <fizzie> I'm contractually obligated to not use any chat systems not supported by fungot, and I don't think I can manage to write to a web thing from Befunge quite as easily.
02:20:46 <fungot> fizzie: which is sort of what boolfuck is to brainfuck... and the format is a full statement) ( cond
02:21:02 <fizzie> (Also, it's sleepytime.)
02:21:06 <pikhq> valid
02:21:11 * pikhq pets fungot
02:21:11 <fungot> pikhq: why are you dividing with the number one thousand one, the argument list with default values would be thunks that did possibly some i/ o systems changed significantly.' wikipedia
02:21:20 <pikhq> Good bot.
02:21:26 <shachaf> Is there a place I can read about the implementation of async/await in V8? Does it turn into something significantly different from the source code transformation something like Babel would do?
02:22:04 <pikhq> Hmm, now you have me curious, shachaf
02:23:08 <imode> iirc async stuff is thrown into the void as "might happen on another thread, might not".
02:28:35 <pikhq> Also, hichaf
02:35:12 <shachaf> hi
02:36:12 <pikhq> how's things? aside from the world at large being scow, of course
02:40:16 <shachaf> You gotta do what you gotta do.
02:40:22 * pikhq nods
02:45:31 <pikhq> Feeling like even more of a social recluse than usual while wanting to be more social than I had prior to about a year ago, personally.
02:45:37 <pikhq> It's... kinda weird
02:50:04 <shachaf> Yep, that's the "what you gotta do" part.
02:50:15 * pikhq nods
02:53:39 <zzo38> The switches I want in the "cat" program are not shared at all with what the GNU implementation does; the stuff that the GNU implementation does is stuff that it seem to me should be better in separate programs; the program "cat" would just concatenate files (and/or standard input) only. But, there is a few option I think should be put in, such as to tell what to do in case of errors reading and in case of errors writing.
02:54:23 <pikhq> Hmm, those actually do seem somewhat more useful than the random transformations that GNU (and indeed, traditional Unix) cat can do
03:00:29 <shachaf> The purpose of cat is to copy data from a file or file descriptor to stdout. Concatenating files is secondary.
03:00:48 <shachaf> "purpose" according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIWID
03:01:02 <pikhq> lmao, well, given thaaaat
03:01:19 <imode> granted.
03:01:32 <zzo38> Well, that is just the case where the number of files to concatenate is only one, which is of course a common case, and there is nothing wrong with that.
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03:09:43 <pikhq> In a certain way of looking at it, I suppose
03:09:52 <pikhq> Just concatenating N files where N=1
03:09:55 <pikhq> Seems trivial but hey
03:13:39 <shachaf> How should this spawn function return values and errors?
03:14:00 <shachaf> I just changed it to return a positive PID on success and a negative errno on failure.
03:14:26 <pikhq> That seems reasonable enough, assuming your error results will fit in that
03:22:25 <shachaf> I guess I'll stick with it.
03:23:10 <shachaf> What about this file traversal API? How should it return errors?
03:23:33 <pikhq> Assuming you're limited to C APIs, kinda hard
03:23:42 <pikhq> There's a few options but none of them great
03:23:50 <shachaf> Right now it's used like this: "NNFTW nnftw; nnftw_start(&nnftw, path, flags); while (nnftw_next(&nnftw)) { ...nnftw.path, etc.... }"
03:24:23 <shachaf> There can be multiple errors as it fails to open directories and so on.
03:25:13 <shachaf> I could make it return an error, as in, you have to check nnftw.err before using the file name, but it seems easy to forget about that.
03:26:19 <zzo38> You can both set nnftw.err and then blank the file name too.
03:26:26 <shachaf> I was thinking that by default it'll silently ignore errors, but you can pass in a flag saying that you want them, and then you have to check .err before using it.
03:26:55 <zzo38> Some functions in SQLite that write the result to a pointer will write a null pointer when it returns an error (in addition to returning the error code, and saving it to be able to retrieve it later).
03:27:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that will work, I think
03:34:43 <pikhq> shachaf: I guess that works
03:34:56 <pikhq> API design is hard.
03:36:55 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to skip errors silently by default.
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03:37:14 <shachaf> It's what nftw does (with no option to report errors), but maybe that's irrelevant.
03:38:26 <pikhq> If this were a not-C language I'd say maybe return some option type, but uh... well.
04:09:55 <shachaf> My file traversal program is 50-100% faster than `find` at printing all the files in /home. I would have expected find to be pretty fast at this task.
04:10:45 <pikhq> Huh.
04:21:04 <esowiki> [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71443&oldid=69413 * IFcoltransG * (+32) A few extra synonyms
04:25:26 <zzo38> In Pokemon card there is one "rainbow energy" card, which can be used as any energy but also damages the card it is attached to. It is good; I once won the game with it despite already having enough energy to attack.
05:05:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surreal FOREVER loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71444 * IFcoltransG * (+676) Created page with "There are some useful total programming languages. Total means they always terminate. In order that a language implementing forever loops can be Turing complete, it would need..."
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09:48:56 <cpressey> I have an idea for an esolang
09:49:47 <myname> what ide
09:55:04 <cpressey> Concatenative version of the SK calculus. Doesn't need parentheses, then. But does need some extra combinators to manipulate the stack. Or maybe it's a queue instead of a stack and only has one extra combinator.
09:59:36 <user24> cpressey: Like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zot ?
10:04:39 <cpressey> I was thinking of something with a stack or a queue.
10:07:10 <user24> So you have the combinator tree and a stack in the background? Interesting :)
10:11:24 <user24> For some reason reminds me of a distributed computing paradigm in which intermediate results are put into a shared pool and then taken out by another process
10:13:54 <b_jonas> cpressey: look at lambda: the gathering. no parenthesis.
10:16:46 <b_jonas> also didn't you just make such an esolang a few months ago, and I pointed you to LTG at that point too?
10:17:08 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wagon
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10:20:24 <b_jonas> Thue has been featured on the wiki frontpage for over a year. I think it's time to feature a new language.
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10:37:52 <b_jonas> int-e: "easily 2^2^2^40 states" => no way
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11:05:47 <cpressey> I don't really see the resemblance between Wagon and the SK calculus, myself
11:06:05 <cpressey> Well anyway.
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11:13:52 <esowiki> [[Quark]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71445 * IFcoltransG * (+344) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Quark''' is a minimal concatenative, functional, homoiconic language akin to [[Forth]] and [[Joy]]. == External links == * [https://github.com/henrystanley/Quark/..."
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12:55:41 <int-e> b_jonas: oh yeah, that's one 2^ too many
12:55:51 <int-e> b_jonas: I got carried away :)
12:56:54 <int-e> Or maybe I went quantum. But that would put the "easily" in question. :)
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13:14:29 <kspalaiologos> a[256],c;main(){for(;~(c=getchar());a[c]++);for(;c<256;c++)while(a[c]--)putchar(c);} => ideas on golfing this tiny program?
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13:25:05 <int-e> eww, that accesses a[-1]
13:25:57 <myname> golfing c is often not done in a memory safe fassion, i guess
13:28:53 <fizzie> The access of a[-1] sounds fixable by making the latter loop `for(;++c<256;)` which would also be one character shorter than `for(;c<256;c++)`.
13:29:15 <int-e> a[257],c;main(){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:29:27 <int-e> is it possible to squeeze it all into a single loop?
13:30:01 <int-e> well, it's possible of course, but is it worthwhile in terms of size?
13:33:07 <int-e> oh there's this trick, too: a[257];main(c){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:33:31 <kspalaiologos> damn :p
13:33:37 <kspalaiologos> I forgot about it
13:34:32 <kspalaiologos> a[257];main(c){for(c=getchar()+1;a[c]++);while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:34:35 <kspalaiologos> this is even smaller
13:34:46 <kspalaiologos> wait: nope doesn't work
13:34:47 <int-e> kspalaiologos: but doesn't work
13:35:01 <kspalaiologos> need one more semicolon
13:35:07 <kspalaiologos> then it's equal size :p
13:35:18 <int-e> there's no point in replacing while(cond) by for(;cond;) unless you actually use those empty blocks for something.
13:36:06 <kspalaiologos> yeah true
13:37:39 <int-e> myname: it's a fine line... but out of bounds access can easily cause the program to misbehave, since you're relying on values of uninitialized (possibly not even present) memory.
13:43:05 <FireFly> hmm
13:43:45 <FireFly> how about a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++; -> a[c++]--&&putchar(--c); to save one byte?
13:44:16 <int-e> FireFly: cute idea, but it's off by one
13:44:23 <FireFly> oh bummer
13:44:37 <FireFly> oh yeah
13:44:49 <FireFly> it'd have to be (c-=2) and then it doesn't save you anything
13:46:01 <FireFly> wait, not quite.. but yeah, off-by-one in the output
13:47:55 <b_jonas> `olist 1201
13:47:57 <HackEso> olist 1201: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:49:55 * int-e wonders how kspalaiologos feels about this kind of undefined behavior: a[257];main(d,c){for(;d<257;)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d]--?putchar(d-1):d++;}
13:50:08 <kspalaiologos> I'm always up for UB
13:50:28 <int-e> (and reliance on argc being 1)
13:50:45 <kspalaiologos> it makes code "interesting"
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13:52:19 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71446&oldid=70593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Properties */ typofix
13:52:44 <int-e> but in any case, putting it all into a single loop seems to pay off.
13:53:53 <int-e> there, a bit cleaner: a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;}
13:55:05 <int-e> wait, what exactly is wrong with FireFly's trick then...
13:55:18 <FireFly> int-e: it should be --c-1
13:55:44 <FireFly> I accounted for the ++ with a -- but didn't account for the off-by-one in the value actually passed to putchar
13:56:09 <int-e> yeah, but I changed something and now it applies: //a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;}
13:56:15 <int-e> uh
13:56:18 <int-e> a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[++d]--&&putchar(--d);}
13:56:20 <int-e> that one.
13:56:37 <FireFly> oh neat
13:58:53 <int-e> (something: I shifted the counter by 1)
13:59:03 <arseniiv> hi hello have a good day
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14:00:57 <int-e> That's 10 characters chopped off, as good a point to stop as any :)
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14:38:41 <esowiki> [[Bugmaker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71447&oldid=54950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Gotchas */
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15:03:21 <cpressey> I give up on my idea. Applicative languages something something concatenative languages something combinators something combinators something, that's my reason for why it doesn't work.
15:05:45 <int-e> cpressey: if you want to do linear programming, you should go into math instead of computer science *runs*
15:08:12 * cpressey tries to work out the basis for that joke
15:09:05 <int-e> concatenative -> linear representations of programs
15:09:22 <int-e> I did it for the pun.
15:09:27 <int-e> I have no excuse.
15:09:56 <int-e> (And I'm assuming you're aware of the traditional meaning of "linear programming")
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15:11:14 <cpressey> Oh, I thought it might be because I had so many unknowns in my statement.
15:11:54 <cpressey> That's also why I used 'basis'
15:11:56 <int-e> Unknowns... maybe in isolation, but I had too much context for that, I think.
15:12:21 <int-e> Oh, darn. I missed the "basis".
15:13:41 <int-e> Which is pretty good in connection with the simplex algorithm (which is about identifying the right basis to make optimality obvious).
15:15:49 <rain1> hello!
15:16:37 <cpressey> hi rain1
15:17:18 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence the problem about thue-morse substrings has been answered
15:25:23 <int-e> . o O ( Is that a yes or a no? )
15:37:13 <esowiki> [[Do loop until failure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71448&oldid=45251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Implementations */ fixed python logic error (what if doSomething() failed the first time? then the program would exit)
15:41:03 <esowiki> [[Call/cc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71449&oldid=69568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* A cryptic metaphor */ typo
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16:00:14 <esowiki> [[C--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+323) Created page with "'''C--''' is a programming language created by Simon Peyton Jones and Norman Ramsey. It is designed to be generated mainly by compilers for high-level languages, rather than b..."
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16:40:31 <esowiki> [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71451&oldid=71433 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-51) /* Python 3 */ fix py
16:46:16 <esowiki> [[MMP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71452&oldid=52999 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) fix typo,cat add,etc
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17:00:57 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71453&oldid=65079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Syntax and commands */ remove Example || Example rows
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20:32:44 <zzo38> Is this a figlet text? http://sprunge.us/wPJwBH
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20:38:30 <fizzie> It looks identical to what I get as the output from `figlet 'Bye for Now'`, at least.
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20:47:05 <zzo38> OK
20:50:48 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71454&oldid=16220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) fix link
20:51:56 <esowiki> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71455&oldid=61390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) fix link
20:54:18 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71456&oldid=71454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) fix link, remove redlink
20:54:34 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71457&oldid=71456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) lower title
20:57:29 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71458&oldid=58569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-116) there is a python interpreter linked
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22:04:00 <shachaf> `smlist 516
22:04:01 <HackEso> smlist 516: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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22:10:29 <esowiki> [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71459&oldid=71438 * Orby * (+168) Adding link to bootable ISO
22:11:42 <orbitaldecay> First stab at turning skiforth into a stand alone OS like a proper forth went pretty well
22:11:45 <orbitaldecay> boots with grub
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22:39:20 <orbitaldecay> anybody know of any other esolangs that would make interesting OSes?
22:39:27 <orbitaldecay> I've got a framework now, might as well use it
22:39:34 <zzo38> I am not sure.
22:39:51 <orbitaldecay> anything with a repl would work really
22:41:04 <orbitaldecay> it'd be cool to have a bootable iso that could multiboot a variety of esolang OSes
22:41:11 <myname> what does you os different from an interpreter besides the ability to boot into it?
22:41:45 <orbitaldecay> ring-0 access, so the ability to play with the hardware and full access to the cpu and ram
22:42:01 <orbitaldecay> but for most uses, no major difference
22:42:11 <orbitaldecay> would just be funny to write device drivers in brainfuck
22:42:31 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: so like easier to accidentally lose all your data with an OS
22:42:32 <myname> for various degrees of fun
22:42:55 <myname> but i don't see why you'd need a repl
22:42:56 <orbitaldecay> b_jonas: indeed. virtualbox is probably a smart way to go.
22:43:02 <myname> just make an inbuilt editor
22:43:02 <b_jonas> because there's no OS layer to enforce permissions on your user process
22:43:30 <orbitaldecay> you're saying that like it's a bad thing ;)
22:43:52 <b_jonas> some people consider it a good thing
22:44:09 <myname> having an editor and an interpreter would open your framework up to all ascii based 2d languages
22:44:37 <orbitaldecay> myname: that's an interesting idea
22:44:47 <myname> i'd rather write a device driver in befunge than in brainfuck
22:45:30 <orbitaldecay> brb
22:56:46 <pikhq> In principal you could have a standalone booting Brainfuck environment, but I foresee it being very difficult to do usefully.
22:58:09 <fizzie> Well, there's https://github.com/catseye/BefOS
23:01:58 <myname> "and lame" ;/
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23:03:29 <fizzie> There's also the https://www.bedroomlan.org/hardware/fungus/ if you wanted to design some hardware where that sort of thing would make more sense.
23:05:37 <fizzie> There was a CPU design course at the university where the main project was a MIPS CPU, but you could've gotten some extra points for adding a coprocessor of any kind, and we did think about doing a Befunge one but couldn't be bothered.
23:06:44 <fizzie> FWIW, any sort of "Befunge with subroutines" variant would probably be pretty practical as a basis for an environment. It's not particularly dissimilar from Forth, which people do use for that sort of thing.
23:07:44 <myname> i wonder if people actually made it possible to boot nodejs
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23:52:25 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+738) Created page with "'''MangularJS''' is a restricted subset of NodeJS by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Restrictions== * No periods are allowed in the source code, in a string or otherwise,..."
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