< 1588293054 886390 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588293082 911046 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38? > 1588293450 364797 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71536&oldid=71533 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+286) 10Wip < 1588293463 997988 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1588293482 936023 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71537&oldid=71536 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-13) 10 > 1588293516 583322 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71538&oldid=71537 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10/* Syntax */ < 1588293989 884234 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588294112 584573 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71539&oldid=71531 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+126) 10Test, not spam < 1588294232 865127 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588295314 743997 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1588296410 961504 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588296538 18431 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know of a BF variant that executes the program in an implicit loop and only has if-blocks in the language? < 1588296605 982933 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that would be TC too < 1588296717 582546 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :L00P is close < 1588296811 117348 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: it's hard to tell, as there are so many bf variants out there and it's hard to search their docs < 1588296824 105676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you ensure that the implicit loop is executed at least once... (an implicit while loop on an empty tape of 0s is a bit useless)... < 1588296826 21224 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like a variant that you can reasonably consider < 1588296886 938719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A large part of Brainfuck programming is getting out of loops :P < 1588296927 225268 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool cool < 1588296932 830537 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course that's offset by having just one loop... so I'll not make any claims about which flavor is easier to use :P < 1588297023 898520 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: The printable subset of x86 assembly < 1588297030 195563 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have no doubt that this is TC. With unbounded cells you should get a nice Minsky machine implementation; with bounded cells a more cumbersome Turing machine. < 1588297044 509360 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 machine code rather < 1588297061 894850 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_DrBwkiJA&feature=youtu.be < 1588297062 338798 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: hahaha, in an implicit loop that would be great > 1588297096 172483 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Spssyy 5* 10New user account < 1588297106 286622 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: yeah that one is quite awkward unless you allow run-time patching of the code to arbitrary values. < 1588297121 182191 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is an implicit loop if you're in the right mode < 1588297146 700603 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I remember playing around with printable machine code in the context of writing shell code to sneak into text fields that are validated < 1588297156 38152 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :In another life... < 1588297196 994479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if" should be called "affine while". < 1588297214 674717 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: ah yes, those php thingies that "validate" input by grepping for SQL keywords and for a less than sign followed by a letter, and then using them as unfiltered SQL or HTML if they don't contain them < 1588297218 678973 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotto love those < 1588297226 367835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has all four: do/while (relevant), if (affine), while, and a plain block. < 1588297226 611983 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha indeed < 1588297229 293798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :iffing whale < 1588297256 36851 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1588297256 684968 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night all < 1588297360 47810 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: for printable x86 code, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC_(compiler) < 1588297383 771663 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: That video I linked is where tom7 describes a C compiler he wrote which produces this weird printable assembly, and he makes use of the fact that if your address is in the top 16bit region and you issue the right kind of jump instruction, the instruction pointer gets ANDed with 0xffff automatically < 1588297393 87956 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's how he does loops < 1588297397 105200 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the loops < 1588297402 78465 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to be that one < 1588297437 440902 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, printable machine code, I keep saying assembly :) < 1588297441 985964 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: right, the compiler is the one I just linked to < 1588297446 513005 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:35:c15e:8fc9:96ef:8ba2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep > 1588297459 699925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71540&oldid=71470 5* 03Spssyy 5* (+199) 10/* Introductions */ < 1588297543 319792 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588297823 933821 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Spssyy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71541 5* 03Spssyy 5* (+439) 10Created page with "I am spssyy. I will frequently update this list below when I publish a new Esolang. I had written the documentation for Superset (formerly Brainfuck 3.0, now docs were deleted..." < 1588297853 349010 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588299069 77580 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1588299920 381772 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71542&oldid=71524 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+2880) 10PF using a RBF self-interpreter (hypothetical) > 1588300649 841389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71543&oldid=71542 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+272) 10/* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ fix encoding convention < 1588300810 327759 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588301083 308410 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946f:f23d:f812:15a9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1588301833 935505 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism. < 1588301956 33155 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1588302440 891978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71544&oldid=71543 5* 03Ais523 5* (+768) 10/* Notes on conjecture */ my thoughts on this < 1588302720 234866 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588302780 888194 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588302923 185841 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588303061 575986 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what Forth would be like if Chuck Moore didn't favor a stack as the method of manipulating data, and instead used something like registers. < 1588303068 226686 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588303092 25042 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just straight up memory. it'd probably require a little more parsing. < 1588303143 184055 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric < 1588303440 809365 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588303475 217432 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588303524 74314 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you'd have an actual format/"grammar", there. it'd probably just be assembly language with fancier blocks. < 1588303735 760229 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture neat article. < 1588303835 387847 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Transport triggered architecture is something I have also once thought of before I know what it is called, and I once tried to design the electronics schematic for a computer that is based on transport triggered architecture < 1588304137 811816 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1588304245 691020 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1588304852 975477 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: rebooting > 1588305355 881168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alan Turing14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71545 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+870) 10Created page with "{{stub}} '''Alan Mathison Turing''' was a mathematician, philosopher, cryptographer, and pioneering computer scientist. "Turing" is surely the most common name mentioned on th..." < 1588305427 795514 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1588305566 167073 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71546&oldid=66658 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+1262) 10Rewrote the start to be a better introduction < 1588305618 687992 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though Adobe does not want to invent level 4 PostScript, I think that level 4 PostScript should be invented, including such thing as transparency, automatic allocation of strings and arrays for some operators if you pass null instead of a preallocated string or array, commands to access font metrics, and some of the features of Ghostscript (such as makeimagedevice and %pipe%), and allowing dictionaries in binary object format. > 1588305680 435761 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71547&oldid=71546 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+42) 10Added a heading to break up wall of text > 1588305735 466015 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71548&oldid=71547 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+18) 10Added another heading because the text was still to much like a wall < 1588305904 359722 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also a JBIG2 decoding filter. > 1588306638 970321 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71549&oldid=71544 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1229) 10/* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ details of the hypothetical command > 1588306957 930692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71550&oldid=71548 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+1093) 10/* Introduction */ Broke down some of the more complex notation for beginners < 1588307229 9125 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :transport triggered architecture seems to be "imperative dataflow programming". > 1588307516 587679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alan Mathison Turing14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71551 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+25) 10Redirected page to [[Alan Turing]] > 1588307573 36435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71552&oldid=55858 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+53) 10 > 1588307630 603936 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turing machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71553&oldid=67049 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+4) 10Networking, i.e. adding a link < 1588309200 885898 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588309319 86448 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the bot esowiki do? < 1588309744 991569 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it report edits? < 1588309783 408119 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also zzo38 I found an "amusing" program < 1588309796 907826 :Train!ca9a86ce@202-154-134-206.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :V2+2=4 code to be run from the registers < 1588315609 745189 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1588315609 745238 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : • Variable not in scope: < 1588315609 745250 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : code < 1588315623 218792 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd require me to upturn my entire execution model, I think i'm good :P < 1588315641 440998 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :> PC shenanigins < 1588315642 231728 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, well, maybe once all of the instructions is implemented, then you can also add a option to make these extensions (or at least some of them), maybe < 1588315643 776222 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1588315643 826717 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Data constructor not in scope: PC :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope... < 1588315656 822615 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't stop you. (you can already muck with PC, the emulator won't crash on you) < 1588315672 998615 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only UB, not impossible < 1588315678 138409 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was easier for me to allow it < 1588315726 970618 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to hold off on implementing instrs that need software float for a godo bit. We'll see. < 1588315733 401253 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you implement the microcodes? < 1588315738 999979 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely not. < 1588315750 201417 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :goal is just the ISA, really < 1588315777 446130 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :once again, microcode would require a bunch of execution model redesigns and it'd be much much slower < 1588315844 291265 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: re your question about subgames, I don't know the answer, but I decided that I gave up trying to understand the rules of subgames ever since they've been banned from Vintage < 1588315853 164144 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also thanks for that page < 1588315856 80707 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean banned from all supported non-un formats < 1588315859 353142 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll be giving it a good read < 1588315869 117154 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's mostly the same < 1588316051 412022 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: extra thanks, it immediately made me aware of an unemulated edge-case (incrementing immediates actually works) < 1588316062 24904 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or writing in general) < 1588316221 877708 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing immediates is something that some of my own designs supported even before I knew about VAX, just because, to me it is make sense, if it is orthogonal. However, on 6502 the instructions to write immediates don't work, and instead will result in reading immediate (and ignoring the value), it would seem to me. < 1588316223 887909 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588316310 165378 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If it did work, it might be a good way to do bank switching in Famicom, when using a suitable mapper.) < 1588316376 131542 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1588316378 595799 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1588316398 116262 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering rearranging my bus model so the bus is the "master" for everything, and the VAX CPU is just a device on it.. < 1588316403 560759 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may allow the addressable register thing < 1588316417 551626 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588316439 887296 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588316450 979602 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, it is banned in Vintage, but not in "pseudo-Vintage" < 1588316513 166413 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, should I upload the interpreter to sprunge? < 1588316517 168440 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :really if I did that model rearranging the addressable registers would come naturally anyways < 1588316527 119192 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1588316555 399895 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be in violation of DEC's design manuals for obvious reasons (if i modified MOVAx) < 1588316597 609725 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :could make it a cfg flag < 1588316600 49747 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for fun < 1588316608 151818 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Train: Yes, probably. (I should also think to put the documentation in esolang wiki) < 1588316628 65274 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :probablymoony: Making it a configuration option is what I suggested < 1588316629 791358 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1588316662 544752 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads up < 1588316664 888819 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, you did < 1588316708 852945 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also am I the only one who finds the SIMH implementation of the VAX unreadable? I haven't cross-referenced with it at all because I just can't read it's SRC :T < 1588316741 14524 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I didn't look at the SIMH. < 1588316822 767381 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588316885 529211 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh, if I were to make MOVAx work for registers i'd probably want to make rn[rx] work too > 1588316889 213185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PixelCode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71554&oldid=59166 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (-579) 10this thing is a mess - Im fixing the rest of this tomorrow < 1588316922 447911 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov ax already works for registers hth < 1588316934 54261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov r, r/m < 1588316937 400778 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i'm talking VAX :P < 1588317017 586310 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1588317718 294329 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588317891 431996 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They mention a variadic instruction mode. Z-machine has that; the EQUAL? instruction takes a variable number of operands. It succeeds if the first operand is equal to any one of the others. < 1588318077 580179 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: why one doesn't copy-paste: You may accidentially "fix" immediate mode to act like absolute mode < 1588318084 888376 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588318111 977376 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you think of the program I sent you earlier, zzo38? < 1588318146 586283 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just un-specialize immediate/absolute mode. < 1588318256 249623 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :de-specialized, and even got a performance improvement with it :D < 1588318409 285976 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588318553 564388 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I learned something about the x86_64 intrinsics in clang and rust using llvm. there's no way to write x86_64-specific code to do a floating point addition (whether scalar or vector) with the SSE/AVX instructions and with the x86_64 rules in such a way that the optimizer can't swap the two input arguments of the addition even if it can't prove that that changes nothing, and get full optimization < 1588318559 572714 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the compiler. there's just no interface in llvm from this, regardless of what function and optimization flags you use. < 1588318579 320155 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, TIL. < 1588318636 716678 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm is just allowed to swap the argument of the x86_64 intrinsics, and it doesn't matter whether you use the intel intrinsics, the rust interface for the same, or the gcc-style vector operators and builtins, and regardless of what optimization flags you use < 1588318682 840984 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't ask about gcc, but gcc probably also doesn't have an interface for this, because the semantics for these sorts of things tend to have the same rules as in clang < 1588318781 776922 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I want to do floating point addition with a deterministic SSE-style output when both arguments are NaN, either I have to add some extra computation, though in practice in most cases you can do that very efficiently, or write inline assembly or similar, in which case you lose on compiler optimizations. < 1588318799 135726 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is good to know, I didn't know how the semantics of those intrinsics worked. < 1588319193 457730 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 2!21 < 1588319193 671697 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 210 < 1588319445 847262 :Train!ca9a8784@202-154-135-132.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588320325 229891 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588320574 433376 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1588322746 623009 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: I thought I had something but as i try to work out the details it is falling apart < 1588322769 735262 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we could try to make a simple translation by considering a mapping like this < 1588322772 875905 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** -> [][][][] < 1588322775 47253 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> [][] < 1588322777 618705 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :** -> [][][] < 1588322802 526963 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] is a no-op, expect it sets flags (this would use scratch space on the tape so the tapes wouldn't be isomorphic) < 1588322835 287100 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*) maps to [[][]] and (*()(**)) maps to [[][][[]][[][][]]] < 1588322890 567592 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to implement it, [ and ] would manipulate some flags on the tape and there would also be a stack of bits i think, which we can access by storing our the stack height and current tape location as unary (to be able to get back to place after working on the stack) < 1588323100 129739 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : e e e e e e < 1588323100 302464 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[][][[]][[][][]]] < 1588323122 586834 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically we are analyzing the code as we execute it, empties are discovered and conditioned on to implement * from just [] < 1588325245 312290 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588325289 469376 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :setting flags is not that easy. you need to manuever to the place where the flag is and back < 1588325346 737062 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588325568 711399 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i overlooked that, thank you < 1588325599 867377 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we need to translate to RBF with < and > < 1588325753 395261 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an FPN (applicative) setting, "+12" is well-formed, as are "+1" and "+", but "12" is not. In an RPN (concatenative) setting, "12+" is well-formed, and so are "12" and "2+" and "+". BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful. < 1588325888 639904 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There does seem to be an easy way to make a concatenative version of the SKI calculus, but it's also very cheap and unexciting. S: push S combinator on the stack. K: push K combinator on the stack. A: apply topmost combinator on the stack. < 1588326043 149357 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the Concatentive Consternation for this morning, we now return you to your regular programming. < 1588326115 687687 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588326195 99437 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-65-251-142.host.pobb.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1588326495 591697 :opticnerve!~opticnerv@host4-129-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1588329617 164925 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588331387 479618 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1588332436 286764 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cpressey BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful. => why not? "2+" adds 2 to the topmost stack element. If we have quotes, "[2+]" may be used somewhere a quote that changes the topmost elem is needed, e. g. in a looping contruct < 1588332436 366845 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1588332466 22442 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588332648 266859 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588332648 351635 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1588333011 677278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588333054 207092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (non-volatile) inline asm looks like the perfect tool for this, AFAICT it suppresses exactly the compiler optimisations you want to suppress and no others < 1588333162 470833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it appears that the optimizer's assumptions for a non-volatile asm are that the same inputs always produce the same outputs and there are no side effects < 1588333204 293101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are true for a non-associative floating point add, and I can't immediately think of any other properties it has < 1588333233 344604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, this is inherently system-specific, but arguably so is non-associative addition in the first plcae < 1588333331 126650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I believe that the definition of a Babson task in M:tG should be a position where the opponent wishes for a card, and to win you have to wish for the same card < 1588333352 848617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty of this would presumably depend on the content of the sideboards, but assuming 15 different cards, it seems very difficult unless you can compare the card names somehow < 1588333359 291174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of what the cards are < 1588333368 285051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as long as they're all wishable by the opponent) < 1588333526 809023 :shig!~davidb@inara.oztechninja.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588334139 382796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: the definition of "simple translation" strikes me as really important from the esoprogramming point of view, even outside any RBF-related contexts < 1588334415 851370 :shig!~davidb@inara.oztechninja.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1588335371 881983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular: suppose we generalize the concept of "simple translation" slightly to allow the translation to put additional fixed strings at the start and end of the program, in addition to its other operations < 1588335414 802628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this generalization, is it possible to find a simple translation between any two TC languages? I suspect the answer is "no, but there's a large subset consisting of most practical TC languages that can do it" < 1588335465 570309 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1588335479 885189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case we've managed to identify a subset of TC languages which are in a sense more powerful than the others < 1588335513 987715 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1588335674 570547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's also interesting to think about 2-command simple translations of other languages < 1588335696 439309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Underload, for example, it's fun to try to find a simple translation that handles the ( and ) pseudo-commands < 1588335955 294220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :conjecture: there is no simple translation between brainfuck and Fractran < 1588335976 28045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* no generalized simple translation < 1588335997 156708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can do Fractran → BF, but it seems unlikely that you can do it the other way round) < 1588336582 104553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the major requirement for permitting a generalized simple translation is having some sort of fairly traditional string literal < 1588336608 934337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can do it in The Waterfall Model because you can have a large numeric literal that you parse the digits from (other than the last significant) at runtime < 1588336637 627171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can do it in BF because you can use >+>+++>++ etc. as a string literal equivalent < 1588336704 80619 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1588336716 20021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a "made out of commands" string literal equivalent is enough < 1588336737 621227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, trivially simple example that can't do it: Incident < 1588336758 631642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no way to distinguish between the same section of source code repeated five times, or repeated six times < 1588337916 952876 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1588338004 351763 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Client Quit < 1588338036 996439 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1588338053 34748 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Client Quit < 1588338115 886864 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric > 1588338631 367176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turing machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71555&oldid=71553 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-4) 10remove red link > 1588338900 461225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Disan count14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71556 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10Redirected page to [[Disan Count]] > 1588339060 332265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Popular problem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71557&oldid=62413 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10 > 1588339564 892947 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71558&oldid=71538 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+265) 10 > 1588339591 105024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71559&oldid=71558 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-24) 10 < 1588340302 517501 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: inline asm has the correct semantics for this. however, for inline asm, the compiler won't parse the assembly statement, so it won't know what instruction is inside it, and so can't use timing information to optimize an inner loop with such an asm correctly. inline asm works if you write the whole critical section in one big asm, or if you are using this outside of a critical section where < 1588340308 523947 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimization isn't so important, but it won't replace intrinsics if I want to rely on the compiler to produce decent code. < 1588340391 498154 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, this is system-specific, in that there are three or four different rules for handling two NaN inputs in instructions. which is why I said I'm asking for this specifically to get the result that SSE/AVX instructions give, when generating code for x86_64 only. < 1588340413 430420 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could ask the analogous question for ARM, but I'm much less familiar with ARM, so I didn't try to ask about that. < 1588340614 802120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1588340739 208486 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wish for the same card? it would be too much of cheating if you have a Homing Lightning and mana for it, and the opponent has an Asceticism ton of Clones and mana for them, right? > 1588340983 247986 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Muriel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71560&oldid=58467 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* String */ < 1588341011 930817 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a similar cheating solution that compares creature types, not names; and there are probably solutions that are slightly less cheating that compare a combination of colors, power/toughness, land types, it's just that it's hard to get a series of 15 cards by comparing just one of those, so you need more tricks. < 1588341040 59980 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s"power/toughness"power/toughness, converted mana cost" < 1588341092 987833 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably use converted mana cost only, using a card like Counterbalance < 1588342015 771462 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Sounds like you're having ideas! < 1588342081 649559 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, simple translation seems to capture something significant. I really like your idea of "generalized simple translation" allowing arbitrary strings at the beginning and end of the program. < 1588342162 533894 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iqrwbexglcerfquy JOIN :#esoteric < 1588342214 865786 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the definition of "isomorphism between models" needs some work. I'm not quite sure that captures exactly what I'm going for. I was discussing yesterday that between two unbounded tape models you could map 2n to n and use the odd cells to store context, which is kind of outside of the spirit of a simple translation < 1588342262 444244 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe simple translation should have it's own page for discussing further? < 1588342295 512586 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tricky one < 1588342327 146860 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you allow a prefix then you can do interpreters of string data < 1588342361 856363 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was already said though < 1588342498 608911 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, on second thought, would 2n to n work? how do you map backward? n -> n/2 isn't a valid mapping < 1588342817 426704 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1588342928 847608 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1588343088 78127 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1588343328 354015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588343545 807755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: I think there's multiple possible senses of the mapping < 1588343553 926964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are senses in which you look only at halting behaviour < 1588343562 19204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and senses in which you look at some of the internal state too < 1588343571 97797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the later is hard to define rigorously, though, and leads to some odd results < 1588343598 833312 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I was thinking of redefining solely in terms of halting behavior < 1588343646 440691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. think of a Salpynx-style simple translation that works via one command providing input to a second command that's an interpreter < 1588343662 392465 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :as, I think maybe, if the translated program halts iff the original program halts then the machine states must be isomorphic < 1588343680 477515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this can't lead to an internal state mapping in PF to/from RBF because RBF is reversible < 1588343763 241330 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I have to think about that < 1588343778 727749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, e.g., a no-op containing a loop that executes will lead to some permanent memory that that loop existed on the PF tape < 1588343814 547095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't see a reason why that would apply to irreversible languages < 1588343854 843293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a separate thing I noticed is that PF (if it exists) does not necessarily have to be reversible < 1588343892 832836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RBF translation of the PF might, when reversed, use command sequences that don't exist in PF; and the PF translation of the RBF might use sequences of commands that happen to be reversible even if the individual commands aren't < 1588343933 902676 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but if there is an RBF translation of PF, and a PF translation of RBF, then there must be PF representations of inverses of PF operators. < 1588343983 445261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: but if you map RBF to PF and back to RBF, the resulting tape may not be the same < 1588344004 743943 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooo you're right. that's tricky < 1588344011 257141 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we sure about that? < 1588344012 826946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to be connected to eigenratios in a way, you'd expect an RBF→PF→RBF translation to expand the tape by some proportion < 1588344049 507454 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are eigenratios? < 1588344050 94192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me that part of the problem is that BF derivatives normally have no way to store temporary data without disturbing the existing tape < 1588344064 238999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an eigenratio is the speed at which a self-interpreter runs, compared to running the program natively < 1588344077 256292 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1588344122 695014 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently creating a page for simple translations to discuss some of these idea further and flesh out generalizations < 1588344145 192755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering creating a page about simple translations too, but it's your idea so you're probably a better person to do it < 1588344151 630323 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of defining it so that A halts iff B halts < 1588344157 257383 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should collab on it < 1588344162 910714 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the spirit of wiki < 1588344164 715335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would consider multiple possible definitions (without fixing a specific definition) because different cases could be interesting > 1588344215 877265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71561&oldid=71559 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+372) 10/* Commands */ < 1588344232 975617 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I agree that different cases should be explored > 1588344238 311810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71562&oldid=71561 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+22) 10/* Commands */ < 1588344256 878830 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as a start I really like the idea of avoiding getting into isomorphisms between machine states altogether < 1588344289 999707 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, but dont we need some way to define analogous input? < 1588344533 485775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that I/O often complicates computational class discussions (I/O isn't needed at all to be TC, after all) < 1588344546 822951 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588344567 448884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be easy enough to come up with a noninteractive-I/O-dependent version of a simple translation, though ("the program halts, and the same input produces the same output") < 1588344579 994679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the interactive I/O version is also obvious, just a little harder to define < 1588344723 125460 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think I'm going to keep I/O out of the conversation for now completely < 1588344730 129355 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it just mucks up the ideas < 1588344735 422084 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :for no particularly good reason > 1588344951 743815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71563&oldid=71562 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+40) 10 > 1588345098 959087 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple Translation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71564 5* 03Orby 5* (+1974) 10Getting started < 1588345122 182902 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wrote an initial definition, feel free to modify and expand < 1588345126 721429 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :going out for a smoke, brb > 1588345167 736388 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10moved [[02Simple Translation10]] to [[Simple translation]]: caps > 1588345190 604572 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71567&oldid=71565 5* 03Ais523 5* (+23) 10cat > 1588345237 259555 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71568&oldid=71567 5* 03Orby 5* (+17) 10 > 1588345391 602370 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71569&oldid=71568 5* 03Ais523 5* (+177) 10clarify introduction < 1588345427 213811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, interesting MediaWiki bug there: "show changes" showed your changes as well as mine, despite the lack of edit conflict > 1588345446 705276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Reversible Bitfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71570&oldid=71520 5* 03Orby 5* (-1658) 10 < 1588345475 473863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if we want the internal state mapping function at all < 1588345488 350338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the feeling that definitions with and without it are both interesting > 1588345492 21879 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71571&oldid=71523 5* 03Orby 5* (+6) 10 > 1588345526 989984 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Picofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71572&oldid=71521 5* 03Orby 5* (+6) 10 > 1588345559 606863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71573&oldid=71535 5* 03Orby 5* (-38) 10 > 1588345567 169326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71574&oldid=71571 5* 03Ais523 5* (-38) 10remove redundant piping of links < 1588345595 949290 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think we nee the internal state mapping to initialize the machines to the same state < 1588345647 414008 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :The state being the same on completion is less important I think < 1588345675 54256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thinking about languages < 1588345684 798957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of a simple translation as a mapping of the source code < 1588345690 340443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it happens before parsing < 1588345699 772449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current implementation seems to inherently assume that the language is concatenative, doesn't it? < 1588345700 108898 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel free to generalize on the page < 1588345711 942133 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :a generalized simple translation could be really useful too < 1588345715 599025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, somehow I never realised until /just now/ that brainfuck is concatenative) < 1588345736 826925 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I originally thought of all this in the context of minimization, but it sounds like you have a bigger vision for it > 1588345752 408717 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71575&oldid=71527 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-92) 10 < 1588345785 274160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF is a joke < 1588345794 850937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does seem to be the view of BF-alikes that simple translation is taking > 1588345808 473019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71576&oldid=71563 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+92) 10/* Commands */ > 1588345847 198026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71577&oldid=71575 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+40) 10 < 1588345852 953406 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :Quit: zseri < 1588345862 459692 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1588345885 568626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71578&oldid=71430 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+33) 10/* Cortex language 3 */ < 1588346033 243210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the issue is that we normally see languages in almost any paradigm as a list of commands, that operate on state, and produce a state as output < 1588346078 560112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some exceptions, like control flow, and those not coincidentally cause the largest issues when writing simple translations < 1588346196 397350 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, mapping the IP to a functional language sounds weird < 1588346221 697419 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: input and output buffers can be considered part of the state. No special consideration for I/O needed. < 1588346335 715122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one application for simple translations is in explaining the difference between the :*()a^ and ~:!()^ subsets of Underload < 1588346353 413586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former subset appears to be a simple translation of Underload; the latter isn't "obviously" a simple translation < 1588346398 24147 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to read up on underload < 1588346421 579779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should, especially if you're interested in minimization < 1588346510 455339 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e (or someone skilled in lambdabot’s workings): I tried to abuse lambdabot again, running this obfuscated code: < 1588346510 563738 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let data O z=O(z(O z)) -- this is a fixpoint of a functor like in Data.Fix < 1588346510 563786 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let{e m(O c)=m$fmap(e m)c;a g s=j g:a s(O[g,s]);j=e(fmap(+)(foldr(const.const$0)1)<*>sum)}in a(O[])$O[O[]] < 1588346510 601154 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my GHCi, it starts spewing out the first elements of the list pretty fast but here the computation just times out. I think I did something wrong, what could that be? < 1588346511 490534 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : .L.hs:174:1: error: < 1588346511 530721 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Multiple declarations of ‘O’ < 1588346511 530790 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Declared at: .L.hs:172:1 < 1588346516 456466 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded > 1588346525 751960 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71579&oldid=71513 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10/* Languages */ < 1588346537 349931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually for me, one of the most important unanswered questions wrt simple translations at the moment is whether there's some simple, objective way to exclude Salpynx-style translations < 1588346549 529838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh sorry I defined it earlier but that definition hadn’t changed) < 1588346584 639253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because those may permit simple translations into anything TC that obeys certain syntactic restrictions < 1588346661 34326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm < 1588346663 71756 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, run this salpynx-style translation by me again < 1588346697 785410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is that we have some sort of state that records whether or not we're in the middle of a loop < 1588346705 981138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commands run immediately if we aren't < 1588346722 181605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we are, they just add themselves to some data structure, and then ] implements the entire loop < 1588346745 386683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the advantage of this is that there's no need for any PF command to translate to an unbalanced loop in RBF < 1588346764 218937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* the translation of ) implements the entire loop < 1588346764 435440 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588346821 213599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can create two commands, 1 and 0, where 1 just implements an internal counter, and 0 does all the real work, depending on context either executing a command, or storing that command in a data structure for later use < 1588346834 939085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is in effect an RBF self-interpreter < 1588346838 655794 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1588346844 405196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just map each RBF command to some string of 1s followed by 0 > 1588346876 517942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71580&oldid=71515 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+25) 10/* C */ + [[Cortex language 3A]] < 1588346885 668202 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do you express the inverse translation table? < 1588346891 138365 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. what is 1 in RBF? > 1588346921 278379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cortex language 3A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71581&oldid=71576 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+460) 10/* Examples */ < 1588346923 796271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the inverse translation table is the hard part; 1 basically just has to increment a counter (although you need a complex tape encoding to /have/ a temporary counter in RBF) < 1588346934 452239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0 is an entire RBF self-interpreter with some additional functionality < 1588346951 540133 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh, that translation technique reminds me how I implemented my first incomplete forth-like with quotes: if we are inside a quote, we continue completing it, then we push it on the stack finally—if we aren’t in a quote still; thought there are no more similarities regarding "]", as the evaluation would be a different operation, "!") < 1588346974 367113 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to do that and maintain equivalence under isomorphism? < 1588346976 273439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can think of it as an incremental self-interpreter < 1588346993 9470 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the state? < 1588346999 898369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: no, but only through chance: because RBF is reversible the self-interpreter has no way to delete the program from the tape once it's finished < 1588347014 449207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is specific to the fact that RBF is reversible < 1588347022 932041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fact that RBF programs with unbalanced () aren't valid < 1588347028 722046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well < 1588347044 344606 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I guess you just erase all the temp stuff when you're done interpretting < 1588347048 527945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that you don't need the translation of, say, *>(* to mean anything < 1588347062 293699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the self-interpreter can check to see if we have a complete program with balanced parens < 1588347079 633012 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I get the problem < 1588347079 761972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we do, it can evaluate it so far and then delete all the temporary state it used (except that it can't because RBF is reversible) < 1588347090 153573 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right < 1588347097 158848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we don't, then the definition doesn't place constraints on what happens because the input program wasn't valid < 1588347159 726784 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if we require the machine state to be isomorphic after executing each command? < 1588347201 947575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess what you want to require is that the instruction pointer moves in the same way in both languages < 1588347220 664983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your "isomorphic after each command" seems to require an equivalence of instruction pointer movement to even be well-defined < 1588347236 274740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the IP movement equivalent is sufficient by itself to ban Salpynx-style translations < 1588347242 13626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it seems hard to define rigorously < 1588347266 896132 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, particularly because the source and destination programs don't need to require the same number of symbols < 1588347273 91367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define it rigorously for RBF but I don't think it generalises to other languages < 1588347326 883208 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so either < 1588347364 304145 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the easiest and most restrictive way of dealing with it is to simply require that the languages use the same model < 1588347383 458613 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's one view < 1588347403 566557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, suppose you add to both languages a command that has some observable effect on the outside world, but doesn't affect the program's internal state < 1588347405 155980 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good for talking about minimalizations of languages < 1588347416 297585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you add it at the same point in both programs < 1588347422 105209 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an output command? < 1588347425 68106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1588347434 486389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the control flow is the same, it should run the same number of times in both programs < 1588347454 96590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because it isn't allowed to affect the program's internal state, a Salpynx-style translation can't notice it exists < 1588347460 298995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you put it inside a loop it runs the wrong number of times < 1588347490 290850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this works for any programming language that allows an-arbitrary-effect-at-an-arbitrary point < 1588347504 950872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may go some distance to coming up with a definition of what AAEAAAP actually means < 1588347569 183589 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am inclined to require a simple translation to use the same model for both languages and generalize from there, maybe a "generalized simple translation" < 1588347584 89031 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :could involve something like what you're talking about < 1588347615 259120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my #1 concern is making the definition as rigorous and non-corner-casey as possible < 1588347653 479198 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree < 1588347700 743704 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to modify the simple translation page to require the same model as that's the spirit in which it was created. From there let's talk about generalizing it between models. < 1588347711 199039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I believe that a definition of simple translation that a) focuses entirely on halt behaviour, not internal state, b) allows an arbitrary prefix and suffix < 1588347722 227988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is an entirely different concept from yours but also randomly happens to be very useful for thinking about languages < 1588347740 711467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though the definition is almost the same, it now permits almost anything (because it permits interpreters that look at a string literal) < 1588347773 765127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the nice thing about permitting almost anything TC is that it /doesn't/ permit some things that are TC, which is valuable information in its own right < 1588347803 793257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping to call that "generalized simple translation" but perhaps it needs its own name < 1588347865 585242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, even looking at the small picture, RBF→PF→RBF simple translation is a really interesting problem (I believe it's possible without Salpynx-style approaches, although you might need a lot of temporary tape space) < 1588347877 369605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Underload→2-command Underload→Underload simple translation is also interesting < 1588347881 121515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the lexical level < 1588347899 781689 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I am quite interested in exploring underload minimizations in this context < 1588347909 255471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have a translation that handles everything except "complex" (…), where the commands are (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) and ^ > 1588347939 615193 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71582&oldid=71569 5* 03Orby 5* (-277) 10Changing definition to require same machine model between languages < 1588347971 929136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underload is TC using finitely many possible (…) commands; the usual set is (~)(:)(!)(*)(a)(^), and it's trivial to break down any existing Underload programs to use only those 6 (…) commands < 1588348019 550368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can produce a simple translation between (~) (:) (!) (*) (a) (^) ~ : ! * a ^ Underload and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) ^ Underload < 1588348051 681246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's piqued my interest is: in the full version of Underload, can you produce a simple translation of ( and ) on their own? < 1588348074 816644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could call this a "lexical simple translation" because it's based on the characters of the source code, not the individual commands < 1588348117 531288 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! < 1588348161 689422 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am concerned that the current definition of simple translation still allows for salpynx-style translations < 1588348207 514681 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain is getting fuzzy < 1588348212 154991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best part of Underload minimization, IMO, is when we discovered that ~ can be expressed in terms of the other commands, but it's really complicated to do so < 1588348231 98599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shortest known implementation of ~ in terms of the others is a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^ which is just ridiculous :-) < 1588348253 917908 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I need to get into underload < 1588348349 510896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)SS < 1588348349 591018 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ba < 1588348357 290175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^SS < 1588348357 379961 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab < 1588348370 943371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SS < 1588348371 14168 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b! < 1588348377 580043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSS < 1588348377 663449 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b!(a) < 1588348383 371133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSSS < 1588348383 482896 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b!(a) ...out of stack! < 1588348419 994368 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b) ~ S(-)S < 1588348420 72053 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1588348441 581712 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)SS < 1588348441 676183 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ba < 1588348449 165812 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b) ~ S(z)S < 1588348449 245112 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1588348454 785119 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b) ~ SS < 1588348454 862494 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1588348459 445657 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b) ~ S < 1588348459 562714 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1588348461 860657 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)~S < 1588348461 977607 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1588348465 765259 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it doesn't like whitespace < 1588348472 213485 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)~S(-)SS < 1588348472 289045 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :a-b < 1588348480 110963 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^S(-)SS < 1588348480 218502 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :a-b < 1588348515 124928 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg, catch yall later < 1588348533 810567 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588348576 672882 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)~*()SS < 1588348576 823330 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ba < 1588348581 940007 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)*()SS < 1588348582 40035 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab < 1588348591 941876 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ right, that's why you can't test with just SS < 1588348597 844056 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)*()S(-)SS < 1588348597 929010 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ab < 1588348606 404059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was being sloppy, I know < 1588348611 447879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's good enough for testing when you know you aren't cheating < 1588348751 290892 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :Quit: zseri < 1588348775 193240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we really need for this is the A command from Underlambda < 1588348790 154286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it puts parentheses around the /entire/ stack, not just the top element < 1588348803 479992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, e.g. (a)(b)AS prints "(a)(b)" < 1588349766 452420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1588350259 548254 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b8f5:8cc:7141:e8da JOIN :#esoteric > 1588350536 228072 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07W (A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71583&oldid=71402 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-11) 10Undo revision 71402 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]]) > 1588350539 91361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Resource14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71584&oldid=71403 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-11) 10Undo revision 71403 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]]) > 1588350541 201581 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71585&oldid=71404 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-11) 10Undo revision 71404 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]]) < 1588350761 903209 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> BF derivatives < 1588350764 170970 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1588350764 171024 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Data constructor not in scope: BF :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope... < 1588350769 626166 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to differentiate brainfuck programs? < 1588350774 466177 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb JOIN :#esoteric < 1588350866 458959 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like RBF < 1588350876 492463 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a nice minimalism < 1588351366 578292 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BF)′ = B′F + BF′. A brain derivative may well be psyche, but I’ll abstain from finding the second one :? < 1588351624 373510 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1588351761 151156 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! underload (hello )S < 1588351762 161473 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1588351803 583381 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` \! underload "(hello )S" < 1588351811 310927 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to execute unknown command 117 < 1588351817 38898 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ why does this one fail? < 1588351829 423909 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that error message coming from? < 1588351990 422518 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1588352059 224856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71586&oldid=71582 5* 03Orby 5* (+280) 10 < 1588352115 702858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` \! "underload (hello )S" < 1588352116 743496 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1588352192 619667 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh right! sorry < 1588352201 932109 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! underload < 1588352202 865909 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to execute unknown command 117 < 1588352209 651305 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! underload < 1588352210 479916 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1588352423 835107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -n "ul" | cut -d' ' -f2- < 1588352426 440898 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :ul < 1588352559 328062 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1588352588 330464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that doesn't cut it) > 1588352835 373995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Willicoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71587&oldid=71382 5* 03Willicoder 5* (+143) 10 < 1588353283 741220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588353558 104578 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmm < 1588353727 691147 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :a(b(c + d + e) + c(d + e) + de) + b(c(d + e) + de) + cde < 1588353772 696378 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to write a Boolean function, one way is as an expression such as the above. < 1588353790 748750 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :But those can get cumbersome; at some point you want to switch from expressions to circuits. < 1588354011 54981 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :a(b(c(d + e + f + g) + d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + b(c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + c(d(e(f + g) + fg) + e(f + g) + fg) + defg < 1588354029 718420 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's how to write the 4-of-7 majority gate as an expression. < 1588354032 984908 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qqlwmnxywvwyzahd PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's awful :D > 1588354299 172941 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71588&oldid=71574 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-38) 10 > 1588354369 429656 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nanofuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71589&oldid=71588 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Reversible Bitfuck */ > 1588354504 21982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Small14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71590&oldid=71167 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-45) 10fixed example > 1588354537 27472 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Small14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71591&oldid=71590 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+17) 10fixed code < 1588354593 648523 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588354618 787144 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric > 1588354678 692650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Small14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71592&oldid=71591 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1588354693 876913 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Small14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71593&oldid=71592 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1588354734 203134 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1588354809 688993 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07W (A)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71594&oldid=71583 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10fix bold > 1588354821 199054 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07W (A)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71595&oldid=71594 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10 < 1588355157 385405 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588355160 134958 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07$ $14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71596&oldid=69461 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */ < 1588355480 986699 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb JOIN :#esoteric < 1588356274 331125 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1588356485 269900 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iqrwbexglcerfquy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1588359815 903704 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588360156 882732 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588360597 860460 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1588361156 343209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conditional brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71597 5* 03Orby 5* (+1609) 10Created page with "Conditional brainfuck (CBF) is a brainfuck variant discovered by [[User:Orby]] in May of 2020. =Model= CBF uses a tape of n-bit wrapping cells which is unbounded on the right...." < 1588361294 934921 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588361595 780153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07VALGOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71598&oldid=31183 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+152) 10deadlink/wayback < 1588361604 811915 :craigo_!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588361719 985397 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric > 1588361809 912152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orby14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71599&oldid=71573 5* 03Orby 5* (+96) 10 < 1588361975 617395 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:b8f5:8cc:7141:e8da QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1588361981 892629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07FLIPER Computer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71600&oldid=58030 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+35) 10/* Examples */ cat < 1588362025 856506 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1588362125 627389 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588362826 421939 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1588363107 543705 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alphaprint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71601&oldid=70707 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Resources */ cat > 1588363190 310207 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Exp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71602&oldid=70011 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+20) 10/* Cat program (1 character) */ category > 1588363222 838211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line Feed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71603&oldid=70442 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Interpreter in Io */ cat > 1588363388 104930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Uack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71604&oldid=71492 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Examples */ < 1588363388 457489 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb JOIN :#esoteric < 1588363422 328133 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric > 1588363466 536996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71605&oldid=71427 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Resources */ cat > 1588363526 3243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MangularJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71606&oldid=71465 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10/* Variable */ > 1588363557 362888 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HaltJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71607&oldid=70959 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+7) 10/* Hello World */ cat > 1588363586 896265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HaltJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71608&oldid=71607 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-8) 10damn Unicode quotes > 1588363602 756685 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HaltJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71609&oldid=71608 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+31) 10/* Hello World */ > 1588363709 279397 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cut14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71610&oldid=68212 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10cats > 1588363750 360673 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71611&oldid=70415 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* External resources */ cat > 1588363787 725649 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07H9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71612&oldid=54612 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10cats < 1588364007 865917 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588364034 490323 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:885d:74c6:cb9e:85cb JOIN :#esoteric > 1588364079 553647 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71613&oldid=66297 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* Interpreter */ cat < 1588364213 919827 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would conscious life be more likely to emerge in a randomly seeded Game of Life universe (with no known small replicators) or in a HighLife universe (with a known small replicator)? < 1588364325 16827 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although I guess GoL still has replicators likely to be a lot smaller than anything resembling actual life?) < 1588364346 479486 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine you'll just have to conduct some simulations to find out. > 1588364355 505708 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GHOST14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71614&oldid=57429 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* See Also */ cat > 1588364481 471274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Gibberish/JavaScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71615&oldid=43349 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-4) 10/* Asterisks counter */ rm redlink > 1588364571 942681 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitChanger14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71616&oldid=53679 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+29) 10/* External resources */ cat > 1588364611 951567 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XO Mchne14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71617&oldid=68211 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+19) 10/* C Implementation */ cat < 1588365712 874650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbitaldecay: why do you keep using

headings on the wiki? those are meant to be for the heading at the top of the page < 1588365721 922526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for special cases where you need something bigger than the normal

< 1588367155 317447 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shuffling function I implemented in TeXnicard seems to work now, in addition to the random number function. (I implemented my own rather than using that of SQLite or of the operating system, because I will need the random numbers to be reproducible.) < 1588367735 403860 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1588367905 388285 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just plain ignorance on my part :) < 1588368612 590317 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ok, I'm really interested in Overload due to it's close relationship with unlambda and my recent foray into adding the forth : ; to stack based languages < 1588368667 35537 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a bootable iso last week of what I'm calling Skiforth, which is basically postfix unlamda with the forth style : ; word definitions < 1588368703 946133 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :The forth style word definitions are crazy powerful when combined with basically any stack based language < 1588368732 641387 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say specifically postfix stack based languages < 1588368831 260689 :orbitaldecay!~orbitalde@2604:2dc0:100:419:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand the overload ^ operator, could you explain the model? < 1588369323 812922 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth style word definitions are insanely powerful. forth without random access is nearly unbearable! < 1588370051 704757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1588370106 368119 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1588370823 887684 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588370851 590758 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 590813 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 590821 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 670608 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 670644 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 670652 :b_jonas!~x@176.63.12.50 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 670659 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 670684 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370851 707906 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 291394 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 374075 :probablymoony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 374117 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 496027 :shinh!~i@129.EC0234U.cyberhome.ne.jp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 540098 :nchambers!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370853 629160 :aloril!~aloril@83-148-239-202.dynamic.lounea.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1588370882 148410 :shinh!~i@129.EC0234U.cyberhome.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1588370907 241445 :aloril!~aloril@83-148-239-202.dynamic.lounea.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1588370930 828236 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1588370945 228382 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I golfed my addition program. < 1588370968 770736 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Changing host < 1588370968 770805 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso JOIN :#esoteric < 1588370989 477336 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371002 881770 :iovoid!iovoid@gateway/shell/hellomouse/x-czaxgthzeweikuvb JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371011 771332 :iovoid!iovoid@gateway/shell/hellomouse/x-czaxgthzeweikuvb QUIT :Changing host < 1588371011 771377 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371019 864677 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c193-150-231-149.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371030 743231 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c193-150-231-149.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1588371030 743278 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371048 334329 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371055 840484 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371056 579484 :nchambers!uplime@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371116 790782 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371167 399818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371175 997528 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371188 493153 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371474 877585 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1588371505 185325 :zseri!~zseri@ytrizja.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, did freenode have a hiccup? < 1588371515 38873 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1588371693 30379 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I golfed my addition. < 1588371700 162274 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :357 bytes down to 114. < 1588371782 9581 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Train: O, good. < 1588371821 545651 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the new one: < 1588371827 782491 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaV < 1588371835 301766 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much tidier. < 1588371848 278372 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how I can represent it so it doesn't fill spaces < 1588371865 145079 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it doesn't show the code very well on here. < 1588371875 875017 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does freenode support latex? < 1588371892 935613 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should perhaps post with sprunge and then post the link. < 1588371900 879738 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1588371924 258798 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/9HUcOz < 1588371925 348307 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freenode is a IRC server; it isn't the job of the IRC server to support LaTeX, although maybe some clients do I don't know (although mine doesn't). < 1588371953 101712 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1588372066 620144 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have TeX on my computer, although it is Plain TeX and not LaTeX. < 1588372099 454591 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright. Can you see the sprunge? < 1588372117 529371 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1588372127 261799 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think? < 1588372142 805465 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of the new addition program? < 1588372195 769270 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It look like OK to me. < 1588372225 379873 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nice and compact. < 1588372261 215853 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1588372293 873475 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite proud of the little relay down the bottom, since it's so compact. < 1588372417 96383 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw one of your esolangs, memfractal. Quite a cool concept. < 1588372627 283025 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2002-12-14.html is the first log I can see. How long has this channel been around for? < 1588372645 477754 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1588372664 835783 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588372837 386555 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588373476 99592 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I'm still curious about your method for finding quines. Can you elaborate? < 1588373998 128634 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksyioosvfvljvwst JOIN :#esoteric < 1588374137 712321 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any method; I just did it. < 1588374181 411246 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1588374286 995236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have a method. It's that I create a quine by making a list of strings and indexing into them from a list of indexes. < 1588374292 105316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Train: ^ < 1588374319 361658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It leads to quines like < 1588374329 290955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g] < 1588374330 667739 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g] < 1588374577 839893 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1588374736 890178 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1588374772 706532 :Train!ca9a8545@202-154-133-69.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see how you worked out it would be one line long, but the actual interspersing of NOPs was amazing. < 1588375153 112078 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't really have a method. < 1588375239 571871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` rm -v /hackenv/stuff < 1588375241 688160 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :removed '/hackenv/stuff' < 1588375782 471675 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1588375904 19308 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1588375950 948550 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1588377443 360813 :kevinalh!~kevinalh@179.6.193.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1588377504 836191 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”