00:01:02 Could someone please write the reverse of this message? 00:01:49 Antebrationist: ask HackEso or j-bot, they do such services 00:02:01 It's a joke. 00:02:04 https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP 00:04:19 Can we make up a new card game based on the esoteric computer programming and the other stuff? 00:05:14 Maybe. 00:05:39 Do you mean like "make a turing complete card game" or "make a card game where all the cards are esolangs" or both? 00:05:51 Antebrationist: Snoitcurtsni raelcnu, desrever niarb mets. 00:06:13 Pleh, I'm deppart ni na CRI yrotcaf! 00:07:24 Oh no. 00:16:17 -!- kevinalh has joined. 00:21:29 imode, have you been reading XKCD? 00:23:50 -!- tromp has joined. 00:23:55 yuh. 00:27:02 It's a parody of the XKCD 327 hovertext. 00:28:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:28:59 I am not sure what I mean. I just mean that if you can try, then you can try to use TeXnicard so that we will have more testing with it, at least. 00:30:52 Antebrationist: which is of course just a worse repeat of https://xkcd.com/10/ 00:32:02 Since, I am working on TeXnicard, and if we can make up any cards with it (whether new card games or existing ones), then the testing can be done and the features can be improved, etc. 00:32:16 Do you like to play mahjong? 00:33:09 Do you like to play dark mahjong, or Washizu mahjong, or any of those other variants? 00:33:32 No. How does Texnicard work? 00:34:09 TeXnicard is a program I wrote for managing and printing custom cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering, or your own card games too. 00:34:21 Okay. 00:34:27 There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui 00:34:55 If you have any questions, then please tell me so that I can write in the frequently ask questions section. 00:36:04 [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71891&oldid=71888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+178) /* Memory model */ 00:37:05 The software is not complete yet, but hopefully other people who are interested in it can help, too. Also, there is enough to do many things with it so far, anyways, and I documented all of its functions as much as I thought to do so; hopefully there isn't something missing in the documentation. 00:37:18 Where is the documentation? 00:39:30 [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71892&oldid=71890 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 00:41:19 Select "files"; all of the file names with ".doc" on the end are documentation. 00:41:24 Okay. 00:42:49 You can also look at the templates if you want to see examples of how it is working. Both of those templates are ones I am using. 00:43:34 An example output from the "magic-html" template is at http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ and there also links to the card database file that was exported in this way. 00:45:37 (If you have Fossil on your computer, then you can clone the repository too, in case you want a local copy of the repository. This includes the wiki and tickets too.) 00:49:17 Please tell me if something is unclear or confusing or incomplete, in order that I can correct it. 00:49:49 Okay. 00:51:43 Do you know SQL and/or PostScript programming? 00:52:08 I know a little SQL. 00:54:28 It helps to know SQL and PostScript programming to program templates for TeXnicard. 00:54:47 Okay. 00:54:49 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:05:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:11:13 a token-oriented thue would be a neat idea. with numbers and strings as symbols, arithmetic, logical and comparison operators... 01:11:33 Yes, that is my idea too. 01:13:03 control flow would be interesting. given a formatted list of tokens representing a list of numbers, how would you sum an array. 01:14:18 you'd extract a number from the array, but you'd need a placeholder for that particular number... maybe the rule system could just detect a special token and say "this stands for any number" or something. 01:14:53 Yes, that is what I thought. 01:16:59 : sum [ : sum [ ; ... : sum [ : + sum [ ; ... : sum [ ] : ; ... : sum [ ] : ; 01:17:51 syntax is : : ; 01:18:24 -!- tromp has joined. 01:22:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:33:09 `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/ 01:33:10 pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale kmc 01:35:52 hehehe 01:36:42 -!- zseri2 has quit (Quit: zseri2). 01:38:23 come on 01:38:54 :3 kitty 01:39:26 Rum Tum Tugger 01:39:31 `? cat 01:39:33 Cats are cool, but should be illegal. 01:40:12 `slbd pbflist//$d 01:40:18 pbflist//echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ Sgeo \ quintopia \ ion \ b_jonas \ Cale 01:40:49 oops, didn't mean to ping everyone 01:41:11 don't worry, you pinged only the same people that I already pinged 01:42:27 -!- shachaf has left. 01:42:36 -!- tromp has joined. 01:42:45 byechaf? 01:43:08 * pikhq shrugs 01:43:54 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:45:39 -!- tromp__ has joined. 01:47:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:48:55 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:50:49 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:58:01 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8). 01:58:14 -!- imode has joined. 02:10:31 -!- craigo has joined. 02:12:55 [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71893&oldid=71798 * D * (+131) 02:13:03 -!- 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has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:29:20 -!- jlindsaw has joined. 04:31:32 -!- jlindsaw has quit (Client Quit). 04:54:08 I read that apparently BitBitJump was actually invented during the seventies. 04:55:32 fascinating, do you have a source? 04:56:23 https://esoteric.codes/blog/don-woods (unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any anchors) 04:59:03 huh. 04:59:06 neat 05:05:03 How should this be mentioned in esolang wiki? 05:17:43 -!- tromp has joined. 05:22:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:54:58 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:08:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:11:30 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:24:10 -!- tromp has joined. 06:28:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:33:40 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+13154) brain dump, to be reviewed and edited later 07:04:12 -!- tromp has 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09:03:46 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71900&oldid=66687 * D * (+73) /* External resources */ 09:04:26 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71901&oldid=71900 * D * (+38) 09:17:58 -!- kevinalh has joined. 09:21:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:21:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:23:02 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:39:48 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 09:39:50 -!- xavo[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 09:40:01 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 09:40:01 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed). 09:43:45 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 09:46:03 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:47:59 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:58:28 -!- xavo[m] has joined. 09:59:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:06:48 -!- tromp has joined. 10:08:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:09:41 -!- sprocklem has joined. 10:22:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:30:59 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:43:35 -!- wmww has joined. 10:43:35 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 10:43:35 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 11:03:46 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71902&oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+3263) /* Further claims */ high level Python -> Python examples, with arbitrary re-encoding 11:04:57 hiya 11:07:13 Hi 11:08:48 I'm loitering to discuss simple-translation ideas with Orby, and whomever else is interested 11:12:46 cool! 11:13:36 i am interested in it too 11:14:01 I just wrote a character-by-character zip file to python translator that reconstructs the zipped python source file functionality from the resulting generated (different) python code to test an idea about encoding. It makes me laugh, but I think there's an interesting point in there somewhere. 11:14:28 I don't understand 11:14:34 zip -> python 11:15:08 is it on any zip or specific ips? 11:15:11 zips* 11:16:02 please explain it more 11:16:12 I zip some python source code, and claim that is some kind of encoded source, then perform a simple-translation on the zip-file, symbol by symbol, into python, which will produce the equivalent result of the file I zipped 11:16:26 I see 11:17:58 https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture#Examples_using_a_high_level_language 11:18:00 it's actually quite trivial, but I think it illustrates a point I was exploring that arbitrarily re-encoding language still enables it to be simple-translate to another (or itself) 11:18:29 i get what you are saying but doesn't this include a prefix string as well as translating each character 11:18:45 I think that we need to differentiate between simple translation that does and doesn't include prefix,suffix strings 11:18:50 because those can contain interpreters 11:18:55 what do you think? 11:19:46 it's a suffix string. and the construction I was trying to justify, which should be able to work in an absolute worst case scenario, relies on just that suffix 11:19:55 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 11:20:18 being an interpreter (in my python example using the builtin `exec()`) 11:23:04 I was trying to form an argument that the empty-string is part of every alphabet set, so should be a valid symbol to translate. I get that it sounds like cheating, but I think it is reasonable to make a formal statement about alphabets being sets which contain the empty-string. I believe that is standard in set theory 11:23:11 Maybe the distinction isn't so important though, because it may be possible t ohack around it using techniques similar to polyglot programs 11:23:30 every symbol could map to PREFIX[symbol]POSTFIX 11:23:51 where PREFIX is something like "interpret the following string" and POSTFIXPREFIX is basically a comment 11:24:01 Yeah, I think a similar trick can be done in Python without the suffix trick, but not in one line like I did :) 11:27:39 I guess I'm trying to re-brand "just adding a suffix" as not a special cheating case, but as a valid symbol substitution for the empty-string or (End-Of-File) symbol that is part of every formal alphabet set. I need to see if anyone buys that spin 11:28:17 I think it's important, I think we need a name for each version 11:33:15 I'm still working on getting my ideas straight, that page on the wiki was my attempt at getting the core of them out there. Now I've done that I can finish reading Orby's modifications to the simple-translation page 11:33:54 [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71903&oldid=71897 * D * (+0) /* External Links */ 11:34:25 I'm trying to find a good source for the standard definition of a 'concatenative' programming language. Is Python considered 'concatenative'? 11:37:38 that's probably a dumb question, I know it's not. I'm really trying to figure out a term for something like Python which can be split into smaller sub-units that can stand alone as complete programs in their own right. I want to term that concatenative. 11:37:38 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 11:38:14 Wait, Fabrice Bellard now has a bigfloat library? Why didn't anyone tell me that? https://bellard.org/libbf/ 12:01:42 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:18:36 -!- zseri has joined. 12:24:30 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:39:48 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:40:43 -!- atslash has joined. 12:46:39 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:47:41 -!- atslash has joined. 12:48:27 -!- salpynx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:11:27 [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71904&oldid=71833 * Salpynx * (+835) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */ RBF -> PF -> Python 13:20:39 Naturally I just missed salpynx 13:56:20 -!- atslash has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:56:32 [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71905&oldid=71898 * Orby * (+322) /* Picofuck */ 13:58:22 -!- atslash has joined. 14:02:25 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 14:03:44 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:04:08 -!- atslash has joined. 14:05:14 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:12:16 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71906&oldid=71902 * Orby * (+528) /* Concatenative semantics */ 14:12:48 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:27:47 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71907&oldid=71906 * Orby * (+1031) /* Method */ 14:29:23 -!- kevinalh has joined. 14:42:49 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71908&oldid=71907 * Orby * (+1339) /* Method */ 14:45:21 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:49:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:02:08 -!- aaaa has joined. 15:02:10 -!- aaaa has changed nick to psdw. 15:03:33 -!- psdw has quit (Client Quit). 15:06:21 -!- f51 has joined. 15:06:39 -!- f51 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:51 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71909&oldid=71273 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) 15:09:02 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71910&oldid=71909 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) 15:09:17 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71911&oldid=71910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text" 15:09:17 [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text" 15:10:12 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71912&oldid=71740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Hello World */ 15:10:31 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71913&oldid=71912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Examples */ 15:11:50 [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71914&oldid=71887 * CMinusMinus * (-1) 15:16:29 [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71915&oldid=71914 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 15:22:29 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:22:53 [[Talk:Mathomania]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71916&oldid=18070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) unsigned 15:23:49 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:29:19 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 15:29:33 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days). 15:31:38 [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71917&oldid=71915 * CMinusMinus * (+605) 15:32:36 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:33:29 -!- opticnerve has quit (Quit: bye). 15:38:15 -!- tromp has joined. 15:39:37 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71918&oldid=71913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+561) /* Builtins */ 15:39:39 [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71919&oldid=71917 * CMinusMinus * (+568) 15:42:45 [[Algebraic Programming Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71920 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+779) W I P 15:43:23 [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71921&oldid=71919 * CMinusMinus * (+356) /* JMP */ 16:19:40 -!- imode has joined. 16:21:24 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 16:25:18 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:16:22 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri). 17:20:37 -!- opticnerve has joined. 17:48:45 -!- opticnerve has quit (Quit: bye). 17:55:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:06:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:16:58 -!- adu has joined. 18:19:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:24:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:34:06 -!- tromp has joined. 18:39:21 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:54:38 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:58:02 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:04:00 -!- kevinalh has joined. 19:34:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping 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should be visible on the link. 19:58:26 [[Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71928 * Mercerenies * (+7707) Acrostic: The crossword-based programming language 19:59:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71929&oldid=71926 * Mercerenies * (+15) /* A */ 20:00:31 [[Algebraic Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71930&oldid=71925 * Hakerh400 * (+5) /* Builtins */ Vertical bar character needs to be escaped in order to be rendered properly in the wiki table 20:03:20 [[User:Mercerenies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71931&oldid=52685 * Mercerenies * (+186) 20:07:06 [[Acrostic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71932&oldid=71928 * Mercerenies * (-1) /* Hello World */ 20:12:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:17:53 [[Elevated Parser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71933&oldid=71002 * Hakerh400 * (+1207) /* Syntax notation */ Two new features 20:22:05 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:25:51 [[Snack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71934&oldid=39535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) typo + cat 20:26:13 -!- sleepnap has left. 20:38:00 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71935&oldid=62120 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) typo 20:50:34 [[Streetcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+586) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Streetcode''' is a two-dimensional esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Its syntax resembles a network of streets. ==The car== The car, which works like an..." 20:57:08 -!- psdw has joined. 20:58:06 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71937&oldid=71908 * Salpynx * (+1373) /* Concatenative semantics */ sub-unit fragment translations are possible in some language pairs; allowing size optimisation 21:04:53 -!- psdw has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:32 [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71938&oldid=71937 * Salpynx * (+362) /* Concatenative semantics */ 21:10:42 [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71939&oldid=71936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) 21:17:54 -!- salpynx has joined. 21:18:12 salpynx: we meet at last! 21:19:26 Hi! I just saw we missed each other by 10mins earlier :) 21:19:38 Ha, yeah it was unfortunate 21:19:56 Okay, so what do you think of the definition of simple translation as I have currently worded it? 21:20:26 It doesn't explicitly tie the semantics of A and B, but there is an implied semantic interpretation of B according to the translation table 21:20:49 I thought it was a better definition for the purposes of minimization 21:22:13 It seems good to me, it's the way I have been thinking about the problem. 21:22:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:23:22 Good. I think it captures the essence of the idea without needing to worry about isomorphisms between machine models and other silly problems 21:23:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:23:52 I think it also reduces some aspects of the problem to a string game 21:23:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:23:57 I had a moment of doubt when I thought there was some extra requirements on how the two translation tables had to be related to each other, but I think now the requirement is only that the tables need to exist independently? 21:24:16 Define "need to exist independently" 21:24:52 I have a feeling that one way simple-translations can exist, i.e. one table can't be formed. 21:25:19 Definitely, but "one way" simple translations also include things like trivial encodings 21:25:27 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:25:30 e.g. encoding brainfuck in binary and calling it a two command language 21:25:45 + is 000, - is 001, etc. 21:26:20 i.e Fractran -> RBF should be possible because of TC, but RBF -> Fractran is not possible as a simple-translation because Fractran is not divisible into programmatic sub-units 21:27:01 yeah, there is some sort of equivalence that is required by simple translation that is more specific than computational class 21:27:15 Also Deadfish -> BF is a possible simple-translation, because BF is more powerful than Deadfish, but BF -> Deadfish is not possible since Deadfish lis sub-TC 21:28:00 I don't think "one way" simple translations are very interesting because I don't think they actually preserve anything useful 21:28:42 I should say "one table simple translations" 21:28:58 because under the current definition A can be a ST of B, but B not an ST of A 21:29:03 So I think the strict requirement that a simple translation has to be bi-directional is too much, but it is certainly an interesting case. Examining why translations can't be bi-directional is also interesting 21:29:35 Oh scroll. Did you define "simple"? 21:30:02 not really :) 21:30:11 I'd expect "effective" = "computable" there. 21:30:40 Or perhaps a restriction of that. 21:30:42 Well, if we don't have the strict requirement then PF -> RBF is just + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100 21:31:10 no need to define 0 and 1 in terms of rbf at all 21:33:01 (Fix any at most TC formalism and let the translation use that formalism. It could be as simple as a finite state transducer.) 21:33:07 hmm, I see your point, if a 2 way translation is possible, a one way translation is not very interesting or useful. 21:33:39 But usually the 1-way translations are easier to come up with. 21:34:10 Typically you have translations A -> B and B -> A that do not compose to the identity. 21:34:28 Yeah, the 1-way translations are very easy to come up with but I fear that they don't carry much meaning 21:34:44 int-e: no, not identity, but "eta-equivalent" in some sense 21:34:54 to borrow that term 21:35:25 Hmm, observationally equivalent in some sense? 21:35:34 programs do the same thing 21:35:39 (eta-reduction is something very specific in my mind) 21:35:51 am I remembering the definition of eta equivalent correctly? 21:36:13 \x. M x --> A when x is not free in M 21:36:24 (too lazy to find the lambda, so \ is a lambda) 21:36:36 Ooph 21:36:42 that A is an M. 21:37:26 (I changed my mind about using A or M half-way through typing this... I should know better.) 21:37:36 Hang on though, if your one way PF -> RBF translation is + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100 , that's perfectly valid. Due to the nature of PF and RBF, I claim that a translation the other way is definitely possible, 21:37:36 well, what I mean is that if you convert A -> B using table (1) then B -> A using table (2) then the final program should be equivalent to the original program in terms of what it actually does 21:38:06 If you can find it, I'd love to see it :) 21:38:07 orbitaldecay: usually when you have bijective translations it means the two languages are almost the same. 21:38:10 you have just made the RBF -> PF translation harder to come up with, by transferring the complexity to that direction 21:38:53 So the while meaningful (in that you explain how exactly the languages correspond to each other), the translation will probably also be very boring. 21:39:06 salpynx: maybe? I don't know 21:39:36 int-e: See the nanofuck and reversible bitfuck translations, the translation is actually very interesting 21:39:38 And I'm sure you can construct pairs of languages that contradict these ideas... emphasis on "construct". 21:41:36 So, the whole motivation behind this "simple translation" idea, is to effectively define exactly what a minimization is. The source and destination languages are definitely almost the same 21:42:39 But without requiring both tables, it is trivial to come up with two command minimizations of any language which is not very interesting 21:43:54 It's interesting because I am coming at this from a different angle, not related to minimisation, I was trying to find a way to translate code from one language to another using simply Godel numerings, so performing valid code translation without needing to pay any attention to semantics 21:44:58 yes, I think there are bigger applications here than just minimization 21:44:59 the simple translation tables are a way to handle the semantic equivalence robustly to them perform a 'simple' operation to convert between two langauges 21:46:28 I think the fact that you are approaching this from a different angle is very good. I think you're seeing things I'm not. 21:47:31 I think the idea of a 1 way simple translation is valid, but it's not a creative choice thing, either a 2-way translation exists between a language pair, or a simple translation is only possible in one direction. If a 2-way translation is possible, and one direction is trivial, the other will potentially be complex. 21:48:19 trivial bf substitutions are trivial, but that's just how they are, the model captures the reality 21:49:08 agreed. Did you see what I wrote on what ais523 called "generalized simple translations" on the page? 21:49:11 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 21:49:38 -!- tromp has joined. 21:49:48 https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture method section 21:52:32 I caught some of ais523's thought from the IRC logs, but I haven't checked back over all of them. I need to do that 21:52:58 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 21:53:13 yeah, he (she? they?) had some excellent insights 21:54:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:54:44 My idea of the empty-string symbol started life as an EOF character, but I thought that was a bit to ASCII based, and assuming the existence of 'files' was not very general either. I thought the empty-string symbol was more general and had an established meaning when dealign with alphabets and symbols in a mathematical sense 21:55:46 Well, I think the empty-string symbol specifically needs to be a NOP and it doesn't really make sense to translate it into something with any semantic value 21:55:58 because in theory you can insert it anywhere 21:56:45 I don't think the idea of α and ω as start and end markers is too out there 21:57:19 because interpreters already implicitly deal with these concepts 21:57:34 I was trying to handle languages like unary and Lenguage and similar joke-like encoding langauges where I think the empty-string as end of source code has to be meaningful in any iterprerter. SIlly and extreme examples, but they are interesting for encoding in some sense 21:59:22 If we treat the code string as an algebraic structure, then the empty-string has a very specific meaning that is not equivalent to eof I think 21:59:47 -!- tromp has joined. 22:00:10 On the LHS though I don't think you can read an empty-string between symbols, since there will be infinitely many of them between any two symbols, so reading will never terminate. I though to model it the interpreter is asking "Give me the next symbol", and the answer is a symbol from an alphabet set, and formally ε has to be a valid response to 22:00:11 that qn 22:01:42 1. What does the interpreter do if it encounters that symbol mid stream, 2. How does that differ from EOF? The empty string is typically the identity, which can be inserted anywhere in theory 22:03:33 From a monoid perspective, εa = aε = a 22:03:41 I guess my argument goes that because for something like Unary, ε (or EOF / EOF like) is _required_ semantically, for RBF and Python it should at least be permissible as a symbol, because we are trying to generalise source encoding 22:04:32 I agree that EOF is an explicit concept here that is worth modeling, I just don't think it's the identity / empty string 22:04:46 I think it's a distinct symbol in the language 22:05:13 which is why I proposed using ω 22:05:30 that's why I posed the question / response "What is the next symbol?" In an encoded source we read from, the empty string will _never_ be encountered mid stream... I feel like there is a way to formalise this better, but I'm not sure how 22:07:04 I see what you're saying, but I don't think "empty-string" is necessarily the answer to "What is the next symbol?" at EOF 22:07:28 it breaks the monoid structure 22:07:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:08:14 so ε can appear on the RHS as a monoid identity as you say, εa = aε = a , but on the LHS it looks like it's treated differently.. but it's still consistent. I think I need someone who knows more about monoids than me to back me up, or explain why that's fundamentally wrong :) 22:08:50 I agree, I am not an expert on monoids either. What's your take int-e? You're a math guy. 22:10:04 Well, mathematically there's no depate at all here... a = aε is just as valid as aε = a. (equality is symmetric, among other things) 22:10:58 Do you think it makes sense to say that EOF is equivalent to ε? 22:11:00 what about ε as an end-of-string marker -- can that definintion coexist with εa = aε = a ? 22:11:23 However, when using equations for *rewriting* (e.g. to simplify expressions), you'll *orient* equations. This is typically indicated by an arrow. And then you want aε -> a, because a -> aε doesn't terminate. 22:11:34 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:11:44 Well no, that's not an end-of-string marker. 22:11:58 ε is just the unit of a monoid here. 22:12:26 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting into a new kernel). 22:12:29 Does it make sense at all to introduce specific symbols that denote the begining and end of a string from a monoid perspective? 22:12:43 If you are in a context where ε is an end-of-string marker, those equations make no sense. But people tend to use a different symbol then... for example, $. 22:13:49 I had proposed using α and ω as symbols to denote the beginning and end of programs 22:15:22 In some sense it seems like an EOF makes a lot of sense. Interpreters implicitly deal with this concept. 22:15:35 either as null terminators or whatever 22:15:57 εaε + εbε = εabε which sort of has implied ε as end of string markers. You only encounter it explicitly if you are reading LTR and reach end of string? 22:16:54 but εaε + εbε = εabε = aεb too 22:17:33 and aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb for that matter 22:18:34 I hope you are not taking offense to my objections, I just want us both to get to the heart of the matter 22:18:58 can't you always add and subtract ε from anywhere, so even if you don't write a final ε, I can just claim it is still there, and the end of your string? 22:19:34 huh. 22:19:54 yes, but I don't think that it carries any meaning in that case. If ab = aεb then does the interpreter stop after a? if not, why does it stop when encountering ε in abε? 22:20:29 Yes, ab = aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb in a monoid. Why is that a problem? Nobody in their right mind would actually write the latter for the former. 22:20:59 But I lack context... I don't have the patience to read through everything you wrote above. 22:21:02 no, no offense, I'm not 100% sure of my formulation, I think the EOF / empty-string question would be good to sort out. I thought ε was a neater and equivalent way of combining and generalising the meanings, but maybe they are distinct. I would like to understand (and learn) too 22:21:53 Okay, glad about no offense, I can tell we're both excited. int-e I think the heart of the question is: does it make sense to use ε as eof, and if not, why not 22:26:11 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:30:56 int-e: (trying to summarise the important context) We are wanting to deal with 'program source code', made up of symbols from an alphabet (a set, a monoid?), there's possibly two things we're doing with them 1) coming up with "translations" from one alphabet to another, and 2) formulating abstract machines to interpret them symbol-by-symbol 22:32:23 I still think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_transducer may be relevant (as a very simple model of computation that in particular encompasses simple substitutions of strings by other strings) 22:32:28 is it reasonable to have ε appear on the LHS of a translation to represent the end-of-string to the source translating to some non-empty string of symbols 22:34:38 -!- zseri has joined. 22:35:02 I'd only use ε to represent the empty string (unit of the monoid). That's how the formal language people generally do it... and the rewriting people... and the presentation theory people (who usually call it 1)... 22:35:56 So if you can expand the empty string, ε -> ab, then it makes sense on a left-hand side of a rewrite rule. Otherwise it doesn't. 22:35:59 ... I'm wondering if I'm trying to shoe-horn something that makes sense for the 2) usage above into 1), which may not be appropriate. Also, we're talking about a specific "translation" concept that may be subtly different from the traditional "substitution" use in re-writing, (but maybe not...) 22:36:30 -!- sdhand has joined. 22:37:27 (That rule would allow you to rewrite cd = cεd to cabd. The equality holds because of the monoid structure of the objects (most likely strings) that we're working with) 22:38:39 So maybe that's your confusion? Separating the rewrite rules from the implicit equalities that we can use between rewriting steps? I'm not sure... I've added quite a bit of my own interpretation to the picture, so I may be quite far from what you want. 22:40:52 Thanks, I understand "cd = cεd to cabd", and I think that breaks what I was trying to do with ε on the LHS, so I'll do some more reading (incl. Finite-state transducers) and see if I can formulate what I'm trying to do better. 22:44:25 I'll be available to chat, but not watching IRC. Mention me if anything comes up. 22:44:59 -!- adu has joined. 22:46:13 [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (+4639) Created page with "'''Alluvium''' is a programming language. There are only two data types in Alluvium: numbers and streams. Every number in Alluvium is a non-negative integer. The size of a n..." 22:46:15 orbitaldecay: I'm going to think on this more. I don't feel a beginning of source α is at all necessary , but that an ω is in at least some cases, although it would be better to avoid it when possible. 22:46:58 figuring out why I think that is going to take me some more time :) 22:52:43 int-e: thanks for the Finite-state transducer link, that's a new concept for me and sounds very much like what we're trying to do. I'll read up on it before trying anything new. 22:59:16 -!- Antebrationist has joined. 23:00:27 [[User:Tetratrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71941&oldid=71923 * Tetratrary * (+47) 23:01:23 [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71942&oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (-270) 23:01:44 -!- TheLie has joined. 23:05:33 -!- zseri has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:41 -!- zseri has joined. 23:09:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 23:10:49 salpynx: I think the eof marker makes a lot of sense but I agree that avoiding it implies something stronger than allowing it. I'll check out the finite-state transducer link as well. 23:11:58 Wow, this is remarkably close to what we're talking about 23:13:57 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:26:59 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).