←2020-05-08 2020-05-09 2020-05-10→ ↑2020 ↑all
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02:26:34 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71963&oldid=71948 * Tetratrary * (-1169)
02:27:02 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71964&oldid=71963 * Tetratrary * (-45) /* Operations */
02:28:35 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71965&oldid=71964 * Tetratrary * (+0) /* Example Programs */
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02:33:29 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71966&oldid=71965 * Tetratrary * (+3) /* Example programs */
02:39:02 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71967&oldid=71966 * Tetratrary * (+0) /* Operations */
03:16:52 <zzo38> Some of my new rules for Magic: the Gathering (to use with my custom cards) include generalized haunt and mutate, and also runebanding.
03:18:26 <shachaf> Bands with other runes?
03:25:29 <zzo38> Yes. Well, with other runebanding runes, that is.
03:35:26 <zzo38> Now "haunt" can specify what object it haunts, and "mutate" can specify what permanent it mutates (it still needs to have the same owner as the spell, though).
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03:52:57 <zzo38> See if you make up a card using any of these things.
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04:15:49 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay? I was reading the logs for esowar, and it seems very interesting. Is it only 1d?
04:18:16 <int-e> huh, in C++, is std::bind(std::uniform_int_distribution<int>{0,1}, rng); expected to take a copy of the rng? *mumble*
04:21:49 <shachaf> You mean instead of a pointer?
04:21:57 <shachaf> I guess it's impossible to know with these C++ things.
04:22:23 <shachaf> It is probably clearer to write it with a lambda.
04:27:27 <shachaf> Apparently "the answer" is to use std::ref.
04:28:17 <shachaf> https://godbolt.org/z/FFkBtD
04:28:58 <shachaf> Oh boy, what an answer.
04:29:07 <shachaf> A better answer is surely to scrap std::bind.
04:30:42 <int-e> Thanks.
04:31:43 <shachaf> [&rng]() { return std::uniform_int_distribution<int>{0,1}(rng); } is probably clearer?
04:32:07 <shachaf> What a maze of std::little::passages, all different, it is to figure out what's going on here.
04:33:01 <shachaf> You can also just write [&]() { ... }
04:33:02 <int-e> Yeah I did manage to write the lambda. :)
04:33:25 <int-e> I'm more annoyed that I've been doing this wrong, blissfully unaware of the copy.
04:33:33 <shachaf> OK, I just felt like I should argue for the more reasonable thing a little more after mentioning the ridiculous thing.
04:34:33 <int-e> Well, it's the quicker fix :P
04:34:43 <int-e> (using std::ref that is.)
04:35:08 <shachaf> Maybe if you never ever have to understand what's going on with that code.
04:35:17 <shachaf> Man, C++ is so ridiculous.
04:35:39 <pikhq> I've said it before, and I'll say it many more times. It's one of my favorite esolangs.
04:35:52 <shachaf> Why?
04:35:56 <zzo38> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOOP_%28programming_language%29 This is the same idea I thought of the day before, but I used a different syntax. Set to zero is the name and a equal sign, increment is the name and a plus sign, loop is the name and then a left bracket and then the commands and then the right bracket, commands are separated by spaces.
04:35:58 <shachaf> I agree on the eso, but why favorite?
04:36:27 <int-e> shachaf: I finally noticed because I wanted to run several instances of my program, providing seeds on the command line (for reproducibility)... and saw that the seed had no effect. bummer.
04:36:50 <pikhq> idk, there's something amazing about this farce that people keep pretending that it's a Real Serious Language™ when it's about as well-designed as fucking MUMPS
04:37:02 <int-e> (out of laziness, the rng is a global variable, and I re-seeded it with the program argument)
04:37:25 <shachaf> I'm sure no harm can come of accidentally copying a random number generator.
04:37:44 <int-e> This is for http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2020.html ... not production code by any standard.
04:37:54 <int-e> No harm at all...
04:38:12 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know. Some people use C++, I use C. I also think many features of C++ are not so well designed, and had a different idea to do some of its similar things differently in C, but different and without any extra runtime libraries needed.
04:38:46 <int-e> shachaf: I mean who wouldn't want this: http://paste.debian.net/1145790/
04:39:25 <int-e> huh, that's missing two lines, #include <functional> and #include <iostream>
04:39:29 <shachaf> int-e: Exactly.
04:41:21 <zzo38> My idea was that you cannot overload the assignment operator, but you can overload the assignment through pointer operator. I don't know if overloading the assignment through pointer operator is possible in C++; do you know?
04:42:08 <shachaf> Which operator is that?
04:42:52 <zzo38> For example *x=y;
04:45:27 <shachaf> I doubt that can have a different interpretation from the separate meanings of * and =
04:45:57 <shachaf> zzo38: My idea (which is also the way ALGOL 68 and BLISS work) is that there are no mutable variables, only pointers.
04:46:25 <shachaf> And instead of a mutable variable you have an immutable pointer to a mutable memory cell.
04:46:46 <shachaf> So you might have to explicitly dereference: x = $x + 1
04:47:12 <shachaf> The assignment operator = takes two arguments, a reference and a value. The derefernece operator $ takes a reference and returns a value.
04:47:16 <zzo38> Yes, I think that way is good too, I like that too
04:47:19 <shachaf> Do you like this?
04:47:36 <zzo38> I answered that question already
04:47:41 <shachaf> Yes, I asked it too late.
04:47:45 <zzo38> OK
04:47:49 <shachaf> I'm worried that this will make code too verbose.
04:48:10 <shachaf> With all the extra dereferences you don't need to write in a typical language.
04:48:15 <shachaf> What do you think?
04:49:40 <zzo38> I think it is OK; some other programming languages already work similarly and it works OK, including Forth.
04:50:37 <shachaf> Say you have the equivalent of "T *array;" in C.
04:51:01 <shachaf> The C code "array[i]" would turn into "$array[$i]", I suppose.
04:51:20 <shachaf> Or "$($array + $i)". Does the [] have an implicit $?
04:52:03 <shachaf> In C a[i] is an lvalue, so really the direct corresponding thing here is just +.
04:52:17 <zzo38> I don't know.
04:52:21 <shachaf> $($a[$i]) is just ridiculous, though.
04:52:48 <shachaf> It all seem kind of noisy.
04:53:02 <shachaf> Another thing you can do is implicitly figure out when things are dereferenced, like ALGOL 68 does.
04:53:31 <shachaf> But then I'm worried that things are ambiuous, for example in the situation "int f(int *x);" vs. "int g(int x);" being called the same way.
04:53:38 <zzo38> I think is best then to don't have a [] notation
04:54:05 <shachaf> Then what instead?
04:54:11 <shachaf> Of course [] isn't the only problem, it's just one thing.
04:54:15 <zzo38> You can use + instead
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05:41:54 <int-e> Yay, I found an application for sortin arrays in http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2020.html :-)
05:42:23 <int-e> hello brain... I meant sorting networks
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06:24:01 <ais523> shachaf: last time I implemented something that used this, arrays themselves were generally immutable (only their elements were mutable)
06:24:24 <ais523> so normally you wouldn't be explicitly dereferencing an array
06:24:49 <ais523> actually, I implemented arrays as functions that returned references, and postfix () had higher precedence than $
06:25:17 <ais523> so array[i] turns into $array[$i] which parses as $(array[$i])
06:26:00 <ais523> * array[$i] turns into $array($i) which parses as $(array($i))
06:26:19 <ais523> your examples look weird to me, though, because the language in question used $ for dereference but := for assignment
06:26:43 <ais523> (= was used to define the value of an immutable thing as it came into scope)
06:29:57 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, I was thinking of that.
06:30:25 <shachaf> I think there's also the odd thing that when you switch something from immutable to mutable, you have to go through all the use sites and modify them.
06:30:42 <shachaf> It make some sense, but when you compare it to a C program it's pretty awkward.
06:31:26 <shachaf> Even if arrays are immutable, there are probably other things with similar problems.
06:32:38 <shachaf> But maybe an array that can be reassigned is a weird enough thing that $($arr)[$i] is fine.
06:32:57 <shachaf> What was the language in question?
06:34:07 <shachaf> I'm pretty curious how awkward this works out to be in practice.
06:34:52 <shachaf> Also, if you had structs, did e.g. struct dereference have a meaning for both references to structs and structs?
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07:32:40 <int-e> So... 100M generations per second on a single core. Yum :)
07:37:29 <int-e> (For the May Ponder This challenge, and with the fixed rule string from that challenge.)
07:56:17 <shachaf> Hmm, for 121 cells.
07:56:30 <shachaf> I wonder whether you can speed up a finite torus board with hashlife.
07:59:29 <int-e> doubt it.
07:59:54 <int-e> I mean, hashlife will kick in when you have a cycle... but for this problem, you're done at that point.
08:00:40 <int-e> And then there's memory usage... nah, I only see reasons why it probably doesn't work.
08:01:06 <int-e> s/work/help/
08:19:18 <shachaf> It sounds that way. But maybe there's some trick.
08:19:21 <shachaf> Probably not.
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10:30:52 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71968&oldid=67514 * Pelirodri * (+2121) Factorial sample.
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12:03:08 <esowiki> [[SoT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71969&oldid=59469 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+130) /* Underload */
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12:43:57 <psdw22> ``` ls s/work/help/
12:43:59 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work/help/': No such file or directory
12:44:04 <psdw22> ``` ls s/work/
12:44:07 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work/': No such file or directory
12:44:09 <psdw22> ``` ls s/work
12:44:10 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work': No such file or directory
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12:46:49 <fizzie> IDGI.
12:47:47 <fizzie> (I guess someone misinterpreted int-e's s/work/help/ comment as a pathname?)
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16:30:56 <int-e> fizzie: hah, cute.
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16:44:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NichtElias * New user account
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17:48:34 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71970&oldid=71955 * Orby * (+340) /* Example base */
18:04:08 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_1D/sensorrec.png Now do you believe me?
18:04:49 <zzo38> (Note: Due to the way the data is recorded, it won't record the system load as zero even when it is zero.)
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18:37:07 <ais523> <shachaf> What was the language in question? ← Verity; it isn't very well known
18:37:24 <ais523> it didn't/doesn't have structs, so that issue hasn't come up yet
18:38:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71971&oldid=43586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Computational class */ total
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20:00:30 <epsilon00> hi can someone help me please
20:00:33 <epsilon00> ng
20:01:07 <myname> Oo
20:01:55 <pikhq> dunno, w/ what?
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20:11:00 <zzo38> The temperature of my computer is currently reported as 35.5 Celsius.
20:11:14 <zzo38> (That is the CPU temperature)
20:13:26 <rain1> hi
20:16:33 <epsilon00> hi rain!
20:23:12 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, but I think you've mentioned it before.
20:23:14 <rain1> hi! i gotta go
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20:23:22 <shachaf> BLISS also doesn't have structs.
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21:48:34 <zzo38> Do you need the C program and PostScript program I wrote for these temperature recording and plotting?
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21:57:08 <orbitaldecay> hello all
21:57:47 <zzo38> Do some computer games use compression formats that will sometimes fail for unsolvable levels?
21:58:52 <myname> i doubt that
22:00:25 <zzo38> Well, I have done that with a sokoban game once; its compression algorithm sometimes fails for unsolvable levels (such as levels with cornered boxes, unreachable areas, etc)
22:01:18 <zzo38> (Not because it checks for such things, but because the compressed format is incapable of representing some of those features.)
22:02:46 <zzo38> Actually, I think this is also true of Gruniozerca 3. The way that the compression works requires that the solution is recorded too, apparently.
22:23:51 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71972&oldid=71970 * Orby * (+161) Tie condition
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←2020-05-08 2020-05-09 2020-05-10→ ↑2020 ↑all