←2020-05 2020-06 2020-07→ ↑2020 ↑all
2020-06-01
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00:20:14 <int-e> `? password
00:20:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is Mayfly.
00:20:48 <int-e> . o O ( `learn The password of the month is Feast for Trouts. )
00:21:14 <shachaf> ais523 or others: Would it ever make sense to do two null window searches, one for alpha and one for beta?
00:25:30 <int-e> window searches, eh...
00:25:43 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is peeping Tom.
00:25:46 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is peeping Tom.
00:25:47 <int-e> :-P
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00:29:57 <shachaf> It's still May here in freedomland.
00:31:38 <int-e> I thought we agreed on UTC at some point.
00:31:57 <int-e> `` date -u
00:31:58 <HackEso> Mon Jun 1 00:31:57 UTC 2020
00:32:41 <int-e> Also the whole idea behind "Mayfly" was to kill it quickly ;)
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03:55:49 <zzo38> The check accent (character 20) in cmr10 (at 300 DPI) is not displayed correctly in TeXnicard.
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08:45:58 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73131&oldid=71217 * Voltage2007 * (+197)
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13:25:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73133&oldid=73044 * Wsdt * (+112) /* Introductions */
13:31:35 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73134 * Wsdt * (+647) Created page with "'''Almost Binary''' Almost Binary is a new esoteric, hybrid programming language written in C#. The project was originally created by Kevin Riedl. The overall target of this..."
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13:40:24 <int-e> Hmm, curious. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73146&oldid=73141 adds a core of an interpreter in Python and the "Unimplemented" category.
13:41:25 <esowiki> [[Almost Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73149&oldid=73143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41)
13:44:05 <int-e> Mmm, this month's Ponder This is cute but less flashy than the previous ones.
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14:44:55 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to calculate n-th digit of pi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73155 * Hakerh400 * (+5696) How to calculate n-th digit of pi
14:44:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73156&oldid=72840 * Hakerh400 * (+89) How to calculate n-th digit of pi
14:47:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to calculate n-th digit of pi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73157&oldid=73155 * Hakerh400 * (+4) /* Optimizations */
15:26:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73158 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2592) Created page with "'''Text Display Language''' is a basic language created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Its primary use is making GUIs. ==Textbox and Textline== Textbox is input. Textlin..."
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16:44:52 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73164&oldid=72395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) /* Turing-completeness proof */
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17:21:10 <b_jonas> how are you #esoteric
17:33:36 <zzo38> I use the IRC client to access the #esoteric IRC.
17:34:07 <rain1> im trying sage math to plot complex functions
17:50:05 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '[3,4] =.. L, display(L).' # ais523: yes, we have a prolog in HackEso with which you can demonstrate things
17:50:11 <HackEso> ​['[|]',3,[4]]
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21:59:37 <b_jonas> `? password
21:59:38 <HackEso> The password of the month is peeping Tom.
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23:39:00 <esowiki> [[Q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73167&oldid=46489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
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2020-06-02
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04:56:09 <Sgeo> "One way to think about dependent types is to think of them as “first class” objects in the language, in that they can be assigned to variables, passed around and returned from functions, just like any other construct. But, if they’re truly first class, we should be able to pattern match on them too! Idris 2 allows us to do this. For example"
04:56:24 <Sgeo> I thought pattern matching on types was antithetical to the concept of Idris?
05:12:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jcs * New user account
05:17:03 <zzo38> Maybe it is antithetical to Idris but not Idris 2. But, I don't know enough of Idris to really know that, anyways
05:19:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73168&oldid=73137 * Jcs * (+151)
05:21:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73169&oldid=73168 * Jcs * (-151)
05:42:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73170 * JonoCode9374 * (+525) Created page with "==Tips For Making a Golfing Language== A while ago, there was a thread over on the Code Golf StackExchange (CGCC) about things to consider when making a golfing language: htt..."
06:22:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NikolayResh * New user account
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06:47:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73171&oldid=73169 * NikolayResh * (+231) /* Introductions */
06:50:15 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73172&oldid=72159 * NikolayResh * (+106) /* Normal implementations */
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07:29:48 <shachaf> Sgeo: Do they actually lose parametricity?
07:30:00 <shachaf> I doubt it. I think it's something a bit more subtle than that.
07:32:00 <Sgeo> A function that wants to match on a type has to note that it's accepting a type in its type signature
07:32:17 <Sgeo> https://idris2.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial/multiplicities.html
07:32:22 <Sgeo> "Note that multiplicities on the binders, and the ability to pattern match on non-erased types mean that the following two types are distinct
07:32:22 <Sgeo> "
07:32:30 <Sgeo> id : a -> a
07:32:31 <Sgeo> notId : {a : Type} -> a -> a
07:37:28 <b_jonas> so that's like when you have an Any class in Haskell, but you can match types on it because the Any class has a method that lets you macth the types, and the class constraint is passed explicitly?
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08:42:32 <shachaf> Isn't that thing just the way they write forall?
08:42:47 <shachaf> Hmm...
08:43:04 <shachaf> That's suspicious.
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12:17:27 <int-e> . o O ( I don't want dependent types. I want dependable types. )
12:46:37 <wib_jonas> `? seal
12:46:39 <HackEso> seal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:54:54 <wib_jonas> "seal" is an abbreviation for "sea lion".
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13:38:47 <esowiki> [[Cubix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73173&oldid=52635 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Links */ category languages
13:42:33 <esowiki> [[Glypho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73174&oldid=53687 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* External resources */
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14:16:08 <esowiki> [[Dogescript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73175&oldid=53778 * DmilkaSTD * (+14)
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14:50:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73176&oldid=68710 * DmilkaSTD * (+110)
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15:11:54 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73177&oldid=73074 * DmilkaSTD * (-2474) Replaced content with "{{WIP}} ::Got an amazing idea for Brainfuck"
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15:23:46 <cpressey> https://mathoverflow.net/a/361870 seems fairly esoteric.
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16:49:30 <rain1> I knew it!
16:49:33 <rain1> I knew rices theorem was false
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17:05:50 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73178&oldid=73177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
17:06:40 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze/mice.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73179&oldid=58067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Comments */
17:07:23 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73180&oldid=72083 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Turing-completeness proof */
17:07:39 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73181&oldid=73098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Raise an error (takes 3 inputs first) */
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18:29:19 <b_jonas> fungot, is it logically possible that there exist worlds that are carried by five or more elephants, rather than just the usual four, and how would you resolve the apparent contradiction with the Bible?
18:29:20 <fungot> b_jonas: that's what we get after doing your initial decoding step. but first i need to use another version; i'm advising you to use disorient me!
18:31:20 <b_jonas> yes, I can understand if that radical hypothesis disorients you.
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18:58:07 <zzo38> Maybe I will need to add the possibility of "sections" with their own margins, within a text area, where in some cases other stuff may be aligned and printed within the margins.
18:58:55 <zzo38> For example, it may be applicable to Sagas and planeswalkers in Magic: the Gathering.
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19:06:10 <int-e> rain1: only if you're imprecise
19:09:13 <int-e> That link is interesting though, I had not heard of Friedberg's theorem.
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20:13:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73182&oldid=73178 * DmilkaSTD * (+90)
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20:39:01 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73183&oldid=73182 * DmilkaSTD * (+1058)
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20:50:38 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73185&oldid=73183 * DmilkaSTD * (+78)
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2020-06-03
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00:29:56 <tswett[m]> You know what we need more of? Antiprogramming languages.
00:30:32 <tswett[m]> With many programming languages, the natural state is that nothing happens, and you have to write code that causes the desired things to happen.
00:31:17 <shachaf> i,i substractive program synthesis
00:31:34 <tswett[m]> I define an "antiprogramming language" as a language in which the natural state is that anything could happen, and the sole purpose of the code is to prevent undesired things from happening.
00:34:15 <tswett[m]> fungot, does all that make sense to you?
00:34:15 <fungot> tswett[m]: how soon before gambit has had one.
00:42:08 <zzo38> Well, with C programming (at least with gcc), if you do not write any program then the linker won't work because there is no "main" function to start from.
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00:48:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like the gcc linker?
00:48:39 <shachaf> Should I write my own linker?
00:50:05 <zzo38> Write your own linker if you need to, I suppose.
00:50:32 <zzo38> The gcc linker seems to work for me; I haven't done much other stuff with it than just compiling C programs though
00:52:41 <zzo38> Can you make a global variable of zero length to indicate something that the linker can use to decide something? If so, does the GNU linker support that use?
00:54:21 <shachaf> Making a symbol to indicate something is a standard trick, I think.
00:55:11 <zzo38> Yes, I have seen that, although I have not seen them being of zero length.
00:56:08 <shachaf> I see. I'm not sure how you'd do that in C, but I assume linkers support it fine.
00:56:10 <zzo38> (GNU C accepts zero length structures and zero length arrays; the latter is normally only used as the last item in a structure, although I can think of some other uses too, some of which have to do with macros.)
00:58:34 <shachaf> Indeed with GNU extensions you can write "int thing[0];" to make an zero-length symbol.
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02:45:12 <Cale> tswett[m]: "First, please don't delete my home directory. Actually, if you could just not delete files for now, that would be a great start."
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04:36:38 <zzo38> Do you have some comments of the custom Magic: the Gathering set that I was making up?
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05:31:32 <Cale> I don't think I saw it, but my commentary would be fairly uninformed -- I only watch some M:tG players from time to time, haven't actually gotten into playing it myself.
05:31:57 <zzo38> O, OK.
05:32:03 <Cale> Link?
05:32:26 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/
05:32:51 <zzo38> There is a HTML export of the card set there; you can also download the TeXnicard file.
05:36:29 <zzo38> (Not all cards are custom; some are reprints. However, I intend to add more custom cards too. Also, the rarities and other stuff may be changed, too.)
05:36:36 <Cale> Kjugobe's Trick wow, haha
05:37:16 <Cale> High skill ceiling card
05:46:01 <zzo38> Yes, that card can be used for a few things
05:46:07 <Cale> What kinds of player counters are in the set?
05:46:53 <zzo38> So far, I don't think there are any counters on players in this set, but I may add some later. Also, it can be used together with another set, potentially.
05:47:25 <Cale> Ah, I was looking at Kjugobe's Pet
05:47:33 <zzo38> Yes, I was guessing that.
05:49:49 <Cale> I wonder if there's a way to make profitable use of the sacrifice mechanic on Goblins of the Flarg.
05:50:17 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that too, maybe a card can be added to take advantage of that. (That card is a rather old card.)
05:54:22 <Cale> Against non-red opponents, it'll just be a 1/1 for 1, which would be outclassed by a lot of other 1-mana creatures these days, but it depends on what's legal to play of course.
05:55:06 <Cale> But yeah, if there was a sweet combo :D
05:55:42 <shachaf> Cale: Hale
05:55:53 <Cale> hellochaf
05:55:56 <shachaf> Have you played any of these "deck building roguelike" games that people are into nowadays?
05:56:18 <Cale> I've played Slay the Spire
05:56:28 <Cale> Though it was back when there were only two clases
05:56:30 <Cale> classes*
05:56:33 <shachaf> I played a lot of that.
05:56:59 <shachaf> The two newest classes are fun.
05:58:46 <zzo38> I have not heard of such "deck building roguelike" game, but now I did.
05:59:21 <Cale> I've played a lot of roguelike roguelike games, especially Caves of Qud
06:01:03 <Cale> I have a screenshot from StS here https://cale.l5.ca/share/Slay%20the%20Spire%20-%204496.png
06:01:36 <Cale> (I'm holding a hand representing 4496 damage)
06:02:08 <shachaf> Barricade + Entrench?
06:02:30 <Cale> I forget what else was in my deck
06:02:36 <Cale> Barricade sounds right
06:02:39 <shachaf> I mean, you had the block doubling card.
06:02:44 <shachaf> I can see barricade in the power list.
06:02:57 <Cale> ah, yeah
06:02:57 <shachaf> Too bad that still doesn't -- wait, you haven't gotten the game's final boss, I guess, because that was only added with the third character?
06:03:09 <Cale> Yeah, this was a final boss at the time
06:03:36 <shachaf> Yes. There's a top secret fourth act now.
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10:45:12 <int-e> shachaf: https://gist.github.com/int-e/8e606cd6e3eeb2d8b4296cbb21d6515f is the von Neumann neighborhood experiment I did last month, in case you're interested.
10:46:23 <shachaf> That's a lot of code.
10:46:26 <int-e> hmm, those links aren't right, should be anchors
10:48:08 <shachaf> What was the reason for using assembly and not intrinsics?
10:48:38 <int-e> shachaf: mainly one less level of indirection
10:49:01 <int-e> (I'd have to map the instructions to the intrinsics)
10:50:07 <shachaf> Hm.
10:50:24 <int-e> Also I had already written the x86-64 version, so I was already in manual register scheduling mode anyway.
10:51:34 <int-e> And yes, it's a lot of code... but it felt like a good level of complexity for a reality check (compilers vs. manually written assembly code)
10:52:23 <int-e> And honestly I was surprised to save almost 20%, I expected less.
10:53:33 <int-e> The version I actually used in the challenge was the generic one.
10:56:06 <int-e> Anyway I think the main thing that kills the SSE2 code is the awkwardness of doing 128 bit shifts.
11:00:49 <shachaf> What's the awkwardness?
11:00:56 <int-e> I guess AVX would enable higher throughput, but that interacts awkwardly with cycle-finding.
11:01:11 <shachaf> Oh, is it shifting between lanes or something?
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11:02:33 <int-e> The awkwardness is that the full register moves, vpsrldq and so on, work in 8bit multiples. This compares infavorably to the x86_64 code which has shld and shrd...
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11:05:03 <shachaf> Oh, that's surprising.
11:05:05 <int-e> So basically >> 10 becomes *3* shift instructions and a bitwise or, instead of a shld and another shl. And the code is shifting a lot.
11:05:53 <int-e> uhm, "full register moves" was "full register shifts" in my brain
11:06:07 <int-e> (I guess moving is a kind of shifting?)
11:07:52 <shachaf> It's been a long time since I wrote SIMD code.
11:08:28 <int-e> Yeah this is a bad example for that anyway.
11:09:09 <int-e> I mainly did it because while I expected it to be slower than the x86_64 version, I wasn't entirely sure (and it is quite a close call anyway).
11:09:53 <shachaf> I guess a full register shift is a pretty unusual SIMD operation.
11:10:02 <int-e> (Obviously this is just my best effort... I may have missed some optimization opportunity.)
11:10:23 <int-e> Yeah, the "M" doesn't really apply here.
11:11:43 <int-e> The most satisfying idea here was the use of a sorting network.
11:13:04 <int-e> (The alternative would've been a combination of two half-adders (to combine pairs of inputs) and two full adders)
11:14:19 <shachaf> I like sorting networks.
11:14:33 <shachaf> Perhaps sorting networks are this.
11:16:22 <int-e> In any case, it was a fun experiment.
11:17:16 <int-e> And I managed to be cited twice in http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/solutions/May2020.html :)
11:19:41 <int-e> shachaf: Anyway, I would expect the code to be the same speed or maybe a cycle slower with intrinsics.
11:20:06 <shachaf> Sure, I'm not suggesting it would make for faster code than writing assembly yourself.
11:20:38 <int-e> (the compiler's register allocation still kind of sucks... they get away with this because the CPUs make register-register moves mostly free)
11:20:57 <shachaf> POn
11:20:58 <shachaf> DER
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11:21:13 <int-e> shachaf: right
11:21:33 <shachaf> Are register allocators just doomed to be pretty good but not that good?
11:21:37 <int-e> (there's no good way of making a capital n at 3 pixel width)
11:22:03 <int-e> shachaf: Good question, I don't know, because compilers and CPUs are co-evolving.
11:22:04 <shachaf> If you're willing to give your optimizer more time, can it just solve the register allocation problem optimally, or is that intractable?
11:22:41 <shachaf> Of course there's also that.
11:23:17 <shachaf> I would be happy to give my compiler more time in super-optimized mode (and I want it to be much faster in regular mode).
11:24:12 <shachaf> Also, can you reuse these things between runs? For example a CDCL solver can probably remember its best learned clauses for the next run (and check whether whether they're still valid), maybe you can reuse that work in something like this?
11:24:28 <int-e> Which is actually an argument in favor of better register allocation in compilers... because we are increasingly focussing on energy efficiency and all that register renaming machinery isn't working for free.
11:24:28 <shachaf> Of course you could do regular incremental building too but maybe something deeper would be worthwhile, I don't know.
11:25:19 <int-e> reusing optimizations, sure, that's "just" a software engineering problem.
11:25:53 <shachaf> Well, I mean reusing learned clauses between *different* instances that are similar.
11:26:17 <shachaf> If you spend a lot of time running the optimizer on one function and then make a small change, maybe you can get an optimal solution quickly.
11:26:21 <int-e> There are superoptimizers, and I expect that reusing previous optimized code is pretty important there.
11:26:32 <shachaf> Though now that I write it out it seems a little implausible that it would work that well.
11:26:56 <int-e> But meh. I'm speculating instead of researching.
11:27:05 <shachaf> What are you researching?
11:27:43 <int-e> I mean this concrete question. Superoptimizers *exist*, surely people have written about them and how they're used as well.
11:28:20 <int-e> (Though somehow, the only context in which I've actually seen them is the Ethereum VM... :-/)
11:28:58 <int-e> I bet GPU vendors also have their own superoptimizers... which they run whenever a new game is released, distributing the results with a driver update.
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11:30:21 <int-e> `? device
11:30:24 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
11:30:31 <int-e> Still ^ annoys me every single time.
11:30:47 <myname> huh?
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11:30:58 <int-e> myname: 'Subject: [GitHub] Please verify your device'
11:31:10 <int-e> No, it's the same PC every single time.
11:31:17 <myname> ah
11:31:48 <int-e> (Well, maybe a couple of them.)
11:36:27 <int-e> Ah I can't spell "comparator".
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11:50:07 <shachaf> i,i Gentlemen, it's a nuclear [browser session].
11:59:09 <int-e> shachaf: That's all well and good, but have you verified it?
11:59:25 <int-e> We just can't let devices go unverified.
12:00:17 <shachaf> int-e: GPU drivers special-casing shaders of specific games compiled with superoptimizers? What a dismal perspective.
12:01:02 <int-e> shachaf: I think it's the reality.
12:01:21 <shachaf> Sounds plausible.
12:01:37 <int-e> (No proof. But what else would they do in those driver updates that speed up newly released games, and why else would those drivers be so ridiculously big?)
12:02:17 <int-e> And super-optimizers are just more plausible than *people* working on manually optimizing those shaders all day.
12:05:04 <int-e> Actually I can't even say that it's *bad*.
12:06:03 <int-e> nVidia or AMD spending a couple of days of server farm time for the benefit of all the players of a game sounds like a pretty good deal.
12:07:51 <int-e> So all I can potentially complain about is wasted bandwidth...
12:17:17 <int-e> What is a 0' (or O') oracle in computability theory?
12:18:38 <int-e> I tried Google and it gave me loads of
12:18:54 <int-e> Ignore that.
12:19:19 <int-e> I tried Google but forgot my Google 101, namely adding the field of interest as a keyword.
12:19:50 <int-e> The answer is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_jump#Examples
12:22:05 <int-e> Without the field of interest it gave me loads of database related hits, I wonder why ;-)
12:23:50 <int-e> Duckduckgo tried to be smart and turned out to be useless. Query: 0' oracle computability --> Answer: Did you mean 0' oracle compatibility? plus a lot of hits for that...
12:24:15 <int-e> (putting "computability" in quotes helped, but it didn't even suggest that!)
12:26:38 <shachaf> int-e: For the benefit of players of AAA games, anyway. I'd rather have nVidia and AMD give developers the tools to make their programs fast themselves.
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12:40:59 <int-e> Yeah there's that.
12:49:43 <int-e> It's kind of unavoidable... in the gamer market segment, framerates in AAA titles is the main competetive factor.
12:51:09 <int-e> So whether it's GPU vendors lending expertise to the game developers, or optimizing shaders post release... something like that is bound to happen. And they may consider their internal tools not polished enough or too trade-secreted to be shared more widely.
12:52:04 <shachaf> Well, Intel doesn't send you CPU driver updates that recompile the code for popular programs to be faster.
12:52:13 <shachaf> I mean, uh, I mean, I sure *hope* they don't do that.
12:52:35 <int-e> Who's Intel again. (From a GPU market perspective, I mean)
12:53:21 <shachaf> I mean for CPU programs, not GPU.
12:53:24 <int-e> And only half kidding anyway.
12:53:37 <int-e> Ah.
12:55:08 <int-e> Intel isn't in the right position for that I suppose. It would be funny if VMs (e.g. Javascript ones) would be doing that for commonly distributed scripts.
12:55:18 <int-e> (/programs)
12:55:56 <FireFly> Kind of surprised they aren't, tbh
12:56:00 <int-e> But one key difference here is that the machine code isn't a trade secret.
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12:56:14 <FireFly> (well, browsers, and targetting key popular libraries)
12:56:27 <int-e> FireFly: same here, actually
12:57:16 <int-e> And who knows, maybe it's done and I just don't know.
12:57:23 * FireFly nods
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12:57:38 <shachaf> Well, it would be nice if GPU machine code wasn't a trade secret.
12:57:49 <int-e> OTOH maybe there are just too many versions of each Javascript library for this to be attractive.
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13:34:27 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73188&oldid=73110 * Yoel * (+0) /* External resources */
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14:45:29 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73189&oldid=73186 * DmilkaSTD * (-36) I dont think this is a brainfuck derivative
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15:03:50 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73190&oldid=73189 * DmilkaSTD * (+534)
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15:07:55 <cpressey> I noticed the "2020" category looked empty so I refreshed it. There are already 149 pages in it. There were 200 in all of 2019.
15:09:46 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73191&oldid=73190 * DmilkaSTD * (+40) Comments in the code
15:11:17 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73192&oldid=73191 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) invisible change
15:15:23 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73193&oldid=73120 * DmilkaSTD * (+18)
15:18:04 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73194&oldid=73192 * DmilkaSTD * (+204)
15:26:07 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73195&oldid=73194 * DmilkaSTD * (+113) uhm, useful.
15:27:27 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73196&oldid=72239 * DmilkaSTD * (+114)
15:27:55 <wib_jonas> cpressey: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=create shows page creations, in case you want to know who created the most pages
15:29:03 <cpressey> What's our stance on languages that claim to be Turing-complete (i.e. they've been put in the "Turing complete" category, they have "Computational class: Turing complete" in their infobox) without even including a proof sketch?
15:29:23 <cpressey> I mean, it's not obvious to me that https://esolangs.org/wiki/(1)_Grace_sent_you_a_message is TC
15:29:28 <cpressey> It's plausible, but not obvious
15:30:23 <wib_jonas> cpressey: sometimes the Turing-completness is obvious. if it's not obvious and the page says nothing about it, not even a reference to some external doc, then I think we can remove the category and modify the text.
15:33:20 <wib_jonas> cpressey: https://esolangs.org/wiki/(1)_Grace_sent_you_a_message is turing-complete because you can translate 1.1 to it by doing one replacement step of the 1.1 program in a brainfuck program, set the resource limit such that that brainfuck program never overflows, and just make the two brainfuck programs in the Grace program identical
15:33:49 <wib_jonas> The problem is that it might be uncomputable
15:34:19 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure if it is
15:35:25 <wib_jonas> Heck, it's definitely more than TC. It computes recursively enumerable languages I think.
15:36:03 <wib_jonas> We should probably categorize it [[Category:Nondeterministic]] [[Category:Uncomputable]]
15:37:05 <wib_jonas> And my draft proof above is wrong, because Grace is defined such that the iteration of the brainfuck programs leads to an output that must match the input
15:40:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73197&oldid=72830 * Chris Pressey * (+307)
15:44:40 <cpressey> I can see how it could be TC if you use one of the LBA's to compute a single step of a TM and then iterate -- in fact I don't see why you'd need two LBAs, just iterating one should work.
15:48:41 <wib_jonas> cpressey: you need two TMs because the iterated process has to generate all possible inputs of Grace, so it has to be nondeterministic in some way
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15:49:36 <wib_jonas> cpressey: the run of a Grace program always starts from an empty state, then modifies it iteratively by nondet transforming it to some possible output
15:50:00 <wib_jonas> then the program becomes accepting if the state can reach the input of the Grace program
15:50:43 <wib_jonas> this sadly makes IO for Grace ugly, because it can't support just any input format, you need to put some marker to distinguish inputs from strings you use as intermediate states
15:51:31 <wib_jonas> but if you use an input convention where, say, all inputs to Grace must start with a 1, and the intermediate states start with a 0, then you can compute any recursively enumerable set with a Grace program
15:51:35 <cpressey> tbh I don't see how you get any of that from the article
15:52:04 <wib_jonas> which part?
15:53:32 <wib_jonas> the paragraph above the last one tells how the program transforms a string, starting from the empty string, with brainfuck black boxes, by feeding the string as an input to bf and replacing it with the output
15:54:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73198&oldid=73165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89)
15:54:26 <cpressey> "the iterated process has to generate all possible inputs of Grace, so it has to be nondeterministic" -- no it doesn't?
15:54:28 <wib_jonas> then the last paragraph describes the IO convention of Grace, that is, that the Grace input must match the last state, and that this is nondeterministic in the sense that the Grace machine accepts an input string if there's any accepting path to it
15:54:39 <cpressey> You can deterministically generate all possible inputs?
15:54:56 <wib_jonas> cpressey: hmm ok, that's true, you could do that too
15:55:10 <wib_jonas> because there's no special mark for which state is final
15:55:41 <cpressey> anyway if Hakerh400 is as bored as their user log makes them look hopefully they'll be happy to explain why they claim it's TC
15:57:35 <wib_jonas> cpressey: still, for Turing-completeness, all you'd need is to pick one fixed non-empty string as a conventional input, and then compile your program to brainfuck iterations such that it outputs that special string if your program halts
15:57:56 <wib_jonas> then the Grace program will accept the special string iff your original program halts
15:58:18 <wib_jonas> and yes, for that much, one brainfuck program is enough
15:58:27 <wib_jonas> the second brainfuck program just makes it more powerful than TC
15:59:00 <wib_jonas> though not more powerful for any one fixed input, admittedly
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18:48:25 <ais523> b_jonas: Grace is definitely computable, it allows the 0 case to enter an infinite loop
18:48:40 <ais523> thus it can be computed simply by running all possible computations interleaved and seeing if any of them output 1
18:49:12 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm...
18:49:34 <b_jonas> so it's exactly turing-complete?
18:49:44 <b_jonas> I guess you're right
18:50:11 <ais523> for a TCness proof, I think it's sufficient for one program simply to create longer and longer internal states, and the other program to do all the real work
18:50:42 <b_jonas> ais523: that would work too, yes
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18:51:47 <ais523> I think a much more interesting question is whether deterministic Grace is TC, I'm not convinced that it isn't
18:52:04 <b_jonas> though in a string replacement language like 1.1 or Thue, any one rule will increase the string length only by a constant term, so you can directly represent such a rule in Grace
18:52:15 <ais523> (i.e. with only one program rather than two)
18:52:23 <ais523> it clearly would be if not for the linear boundedness
18:52:46 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's still TC if you want a fixed Grace input, say always give "1" as the input.
18:52:57 <b_jonas> ais523: you can translate 1.1 into it, or a deterministic version of Thue
18:53:09 <b_jonas> where the brainfuck program always executes the first rule that matches
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18:53:15 <ais523> ah right, yes, or any language which works by transforming an internal state one step at a time
18:53:25 <b_jonas> 1.1 is a bit more complicated because you also need to store the finite control state in the string
18:53:28 <ais523> where each individual step grows the string only finitely
18:53:44 <ais523> actually my first thought for this was MiniMAX
18:54:02 <ais523> but that's awkward because you need a weird representation of the instruction pointer and old instruction pointer
18:54:42 <b_jonas> ais523: would a version of Thue that always does the first replacement rule that applies work?
18:54:47 <ais523> hmm, that made me think of an entirely different problem: what's the minimum number of word-pairs needed for the Post Correspondence Problem to be TC?
18:55:02 <ais523> b_jonas: yes
18:55:12 <b_jonas> is there a name for that deterministic Thue or something close?
18:55:23 <b_jonas> perhaps even an article on esolangs.org?
18:55:27 <imode> y'all talkin about thue.
18:55:39 <b_jonas> it's not 1.1, because 1.1 has a finite control state, so it's actually much harder to translate
18:55:48 <ais523> deterministic Thues have been talked about quite a bit, but there are two different ways to determinize Thue
18:55:56 <ais523> one is to always take the first rule, one is to always take the first position in the program
18:55:59 <imode> one is prioritization of rules and...
18:56:01 <imode> yeah.
18:56:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah
18:56:12 <b_jonas> in this case either one would work
18:56:15 <ais523> come to think of it, 2C would work great for this
18:56:18 <b_jonas> because you can translate either one to brainfuck
18:56:30 <ais523> as one step of 2C is a finite state machine
18:56:47 <imode> I've been working on a "brainfuck" to Thue translator since yesterday, funny this comes up now.
18:57:20 <ais523> how many tape cells do you need to convert arbitrary finite state machines to BF? my guess is 2, possibly 1 is enough
18:57:47 <ais523> (IIRC, 3 is enough to be TC if you have bignum cells, but obviously an FSM doesn't need bignums)
18:58:11 <imode> 1 would be enough, wouldn't it?
18:58:24 <imode> or would you need 2, one for state and one for input.
18:58:44 <ais523> oh, I didn't even think of putting the state in a cell
18:59:01 <ais523> I was thinking you use the IP to record the state, in which the hard part is whether or not you can escape from brackets without forgetting what you're doing
18:59:20 <ais523> you probably need 2 cells simply because you can't escape a loop unless the current cell is 0
18:59:33 <ais523> meaning that in 1-cell brainfuck, you can't remember anything across a ]
18:59:53 <imode> yeah.
19:00:03 <b_jonas> ais523: there's also one-tape thue, in which the input, every string state, every search string, and every replacement string must contain exactly one "1"
19:00:09 <b_jonas> which works like a two-stack machine
19:00:12 <ais523> a conditional-goto version of BF would only need one cell to implement an FSM, and it only needs that cell to be able to read the input
19:00:28 <b_jonas> and you can check that it's locally deterministic
19:00:53 <ais523> hmm, this implies that structured programming can actually make languages less powerful sometimes
19:00:55 <b_jonas> cpressey: ^
19:01:26 <imode> yeah, that's kind of why I got off of it.
19:01:28 <b_jonas> basically you can translate a two-stack finite control machine to a Thue program that is intrinsically determinisitic, that's what I wanted to say
19:01:31 <imode> it's too restrictive.
19:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-06-01.html#lZb
19:03:58 <b_jonas> also, do prolog variants really use different atoms as the head of a non-empty list?
19:05:13 <b_jonas> yes they do. SWI prolog uses '[|]' as the head, gnu prolog uses '.' as the head
19:06:39 <b_jonas> This is like one of those weird BSD vs Sysv differences, isn't it?
19:08:41 <b_jonas> they also represent the empty list differently
19:12:38 <b_jonas> apparently in gnu prolog, the atom '[]' is the empty list, and '.'(Car,Cdr) is a non-empty list; in swi prolog, '[|]'(Car,Cdr) is a non-empty list, and the empty list isn't even an atom (wtf)
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19:16:09 <ais523> I think traditionally in Prolog, '.' is the name of the cons operator
19:16:20 <b_jonas> ais523: that's what I thought too
19:16:36 <ais523> I guess it's a good name because it's one of the few things that never parses as an operator naturally
19:16:44 <ais523> so it's unlikely to clash with a user-defined operator
19:17:01 <b_jonas> yes, nor does it parse as an atom
19:17:17 <ais523> `` swipl -qg 'display(/(A,B)).'
19:17:19 <HackEso> ​/(_380,_382)
19:17:24 <ais523> `` swipl -qg 'display(A/B).'
19:17:25 <HackEso> ​/(_380,_382)
19:17:30 <ais523> ah, OK
19:17:42 <ais523> for a moment I though it was making a distinction and got very confused
19:17:54 <ais523> GNU prolog uses infix notation when displaying operators, I think
19:17:54 <b_jonas> the parser makes a distinction
19:18:04 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'true(A,B)'
19:18:06 <HackEso> ERROR: -g true(A,B): catch/3: Undefined procedure: true/2 \ ERROR: However, there are definitions for: \ ERROR: true/0
19:18:12 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B)'
19:18:13 <HackEso> No output.
19:18:28 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B).'
19:18:29 <HackEso> No output.
19:18:34 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg 'L=true(A,B), display(L).'
19:18:34 <ais523> that's not a distinction between infix and prefix
19:18:35 <HackEso> true(_380,_382)
19:18:41 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(A true B), display(L).'
19:18:42 <HackEso> ERROR: -g (A true B), display(L).: Syntax error: Operator expected \ ERROR: (A \ ERROR: ** here ** \ ERROR: true B), display(L).
19:18:50 <ais523> "true" isn't an operator
19:18:54 <b_jonas> yeah
19:19:07 <ais523> I think you can make things into operators in Prolog but forget how
19:19:22 <ais523> ``` swipl -qg 'display(!(A,B)).'
19:19:23 <HackEso> ​!(_380,_382)
19:19:30 <ais523> oh wow, I'm kind-of surprised that worked
19:19:38 <ais523> ``` swipl -qg '!(x,y).'
19:19:39 <HackEso> ERROR: -g !(x,y).: catch/3: Undefined procedure: !/2 \ ERROR: However, there are definitions for: \ ERROR: !/0
19:19:48 <ais523> looks like you can call a predicate ! if you want to
19:19:54 <ais523> presumably only if it has argumetns
19:20:31 <ais523> or maybe ! is implemented as a predicate that looks back along the call stack somehow?
19:20:48 <b_jonas> I think you could, but the above output doesn't really prove that
19:20:54 <ais523> most Prologs have a cut equivalent of setjmp/longjmp, but doing it without the setjmp is impressive
19:21:12 <ais523> I know the above output doesn't prove it, but it does make it more likely
19:24:07 <b_jonas> anyway, prolog doesn't have vararg predicates, so when it tries to execute a !, it can look up the atom together with its arity, and then find a very special magic builtin
19:24:28 <b_jonas> similarly for 2-arity ;
19:24:49 <ais523> you could use assert in a loop to emulate a varag predicate, but you'd have to stop generating at some maximum number
19:24:54 <b_jonas> it might even represent !/0 and !/2 with different words in the head internally
19:25:05 <ais523> also ; doesn't have to be magical, you can implement it in standard Prolog
19:25:13 <ais523> it's , that's magical
19:25:27 <b_jonas> ; is sort of magical because of how it behaves on the right side of a ->
19:25:40 <ais523> I thought that was just operator precedenc
19:25:43 <ais523> *precedence
19:25:45 <b_jonas> no
19:26:20 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1), R.'
19:26:20 <HackEso> ERROR: -g (true->R=0;R=1), R.: '<meta-call>'/1: Type error: `callable' expected, found `0' (an integer)
19:26:27 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1), display(R).'
19:26:29 <HackEso> 0
19:26:38 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qg '(true->R=0;R=1)=..L, display(L).'
19:26:39 <HackEso> ​[;,->(true,=(_380,0)),=(_380,1)]
19:26:44 <b_jonas> hmm maybe it is
19:27:05 <b_jonas> ok sorry, I'm wrong
19:27:10 <b_jonas> maybe it's -> that's magical then?
19:27:16 <b_jonas> one of them has to be magical
19:27:44 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->or(R=0,R=1)), display(R).'
19:27:45 <HackEso> 0
19:27:58 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->or(R=0,R=1)), display(R), fail.'
19:27:59 <HackEso> 01
19:28:06 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->R=0;R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:28:08 <HackEso> 0
19:28:12 <ais523> OK, ; is magical
19:28:24 <ais523> or, wait, no
19:28:29 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), (true->(R=0;R=1)), display(R), fail.'
19:28:30 <HackEso> 01
19:28:37 <ais523> yes, nonmagical, it's just operator precedence
19:29:00 <b_jonas> hmm wait, let me test this
19:29:06 <ais523> actually I'm not sure , is magical, I just can't see a way to define it except in terms of itself
19:29:32 <ais523> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), or((true->R=0),R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:33 <HackEso> 01
19:29:41 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), ((true->R=0);R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:42 <HackEso> 0
19:29:49 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -gq 'assertz((or(X,Y) :- X)), assertz((or(X,Y) :- Y)), or((true->R=0),R=1), display(R), fail.'
19:29:50 <HackEso> 01
19:29:52 <b_jonas> ^
19:29:59 <ais523> yes, we both thought of that test at once
19:30:00 <b_jonas> yeah, you tested the same thing
19:30:06 <ais523> that does look somewhat magical
19:30:34 <b_jonas> I guess it might still not be magical, if say (A;B) just checks whether the head of A is ->
19:30:44 <b_jonas> a normal predicate could do that
19:30:48 <ais523> I tend not to use -> anyway because it makes my head hurt, this shows why
19:31:08 <b_jonas> you know you can translate -> to ! right?
19:31:19 <ais523> I'd find that much clearer
19:31:41 <ais523> although doesn't the translation need an auxiliary predicate sometimes to control the scope of !?
19:31:50 <b_jonas> yes, it needs an auxiliary predicate
19:35:09 <ais523> I wonder why Lisp is as popular as it is, given the existence of Prolog
19:35:16 <ais523> I would have thought Prolog was just a strictly better Lisp
19:35:24 <ais523> that said, neither language is all that popular
19:38:27 <b_jonas> ais523: well the good news is, olvashato compiles conditionals or pattern matching to -> in general, but the current version optimizes them to ! when they're at the top level of a predicate
19:38:38 <int-e> Meh, Prolog has an awful execution model.
19:39:00 <ais523> you don't actually have to make use of the backtracking
19:39:03 <b_jonas> so it will make your head hurt less, and that was specifically the goal, though not for your head in particular, but for the head of the professor that read the homework prolog program generated with it
19:39:24 <b_jonas> however, I think the version that I used to submit the homework didn't have that optimization yet
19:39:41 <int-e> ais523: but backtracking is the default, you have to actively fight it if you don't want it
19:39:47 <b_jonas> or maybe it did have it, it just didn't have the similar optimization for the sml output? I dunno
19:39:52 <ais523> int-e: only if you use nondeterministic predicates
19:40:16 <int-e> and the syntax isn't all that great either.
19:40:18 <ais523> if all your predicates are deteriministic the evaluation order is the same as Lisp
19:40:18 * int-e shrugs
19:40:45 <int-e> I don't like Prolog. Lisp at least has meta-programming going for it.
19:41:13 <ais523> the point is that Prolog can be meta-programmed in exactly the same way
19:41:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, prolog is not a strictly better list, because if you write a function composition expression like (a (b c)) in lisp, where a and b are functions, then in List you have to make up a variable name for the temporary, like (b(C, O), a(O, ...)) where O is the temporary variable that never appears in lisp
19:41:38 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, that's a good point
19:41:49 <b_jonas> ais523: also lisp has convenient first class functions, mutable bindings, mutable vectors, and some more convenient builtins
19:42:05 <int-e> (Lisp's main problem is one of attitude. The so called "common" lisp is huge, complex, badly documented unless you already know Lisp, and completely ignores the fact that there's a plethora of languages outside of Lisp that you might want to bind to.)
19:42:17 <ais523> at one point I was considering a Prolog variant where predicates had a "return value", so writing A=f(B,C) in the variant would be equivalent to f(B,C,A) in actual Prolog
19:42:21 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+893) Created page with "'''Jumplang''' is a [[brainfuck]]-derived esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] designed to be easier to implement in another esolang than normal brainfuck. ==Difference..."
19:42:22 <b_jonas> ais523: mutable stuff is specifically hard to translate to prolog, whereas lisps have builtins for it (though they may differ between common lisp and scheme)
19:42:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that prolog variant exists, I think it's called Mozart or something
19:42:57 <int-e> But Lisp at least seemed worth using to me at some point until I ran into those problems. Prolog... never appealed to me except as a declarative-ish programming curiosity for simple backtracking solvers.
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19:44:18 <ais523> actually, I think I realised what I prefer about deterministic Prolog compared to Lisp: the quoting mechanisms are so much nicer
19:44:45 <ais523> that's probably a consequence of return values not existing, though
19:44:45 <b_jonas> ais523: apparently it's called Oz language and the implementation is called Mozart, just to confuse people
19:45:08 <ais523> hmm, maybe Prolog could do with some sort of scoped assert
19:45:15 <b_jonas> ais523: but the point is, you don't need quoting mechanisms if you program lisp like a sane procedural language
19:45:25 <ais523> Prolog does mutability just fine, its issue is that it's all global
19:45:40 <ais523> b_jonas: yes you do, e.g. when setting a variable
19:46:05 <ais523> if you do (set a b) then Lisp will attempt to evaluate both a and b, in order to generate the name of the variable it's setting and the value it's setting it to separately
19:46:07 <b_jonas> ais523: not for scheme, no. you might need it in lesser lisp variants, but those have other drawbacks too
19:46:20 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that's common lisp weirdness, we don't do that in scheme at all
19:46:46 <ais523> b_jonas: well in Common Lisp you normally use a macro setq that's just set with the first argument quoted
19:46:49 <b_jonas> you don't want to be able to access just any local variable by name, would you?
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19:47:05 <b_jonas> that just makes optimization much harder than it should be
19:47:09 <b_jonas> scheme doesn't have that feature
19:47:21 <b_jonas> you can still access *global* variables by name, and mutate them too, if you want
19:47:27 <b_jonas> like in perl or python
19:47:29 <b_jonas> but not locals
19:47:40 <b_jonas> so the normal way to set a variable is (set! variablename value)
19:47:59 <ais523> ah, I always assumed that was analogous to setq, but maybe not?
19:48:02 <b_jonas> and that's the only builtin that can mutate a variable, though there are some other builtin macros
19:48:17 <b_jonas> ais523: it's analogous to setq, but there's no set that can modify a local variable by name
19:48:24 <ais523> it's magical because the name is being interpreted differently depending on the scope in which set! appears
19:48:45 <ais523> whereas setq is literally just adding an apostrophe
19:48:58 <b_jonas> ais523: you could say that, it's one of the few built-in expression types, but you can define a macro that does exactly that,
19:50:17 <ais523> fwiw, many Lisp programmers prefer to use recursion rather than mutable variables; I wonder if that's related to issues of identifier scoping?
19:50:31 <ais523> although maybe not, when I program OCaml I often choose to use recursion rather than mutable variables
19:50:38 <b_jonas> define is way more magical (it's still implemented as a macro, but it's implemented like -> can be implemented in prolog, where lambda looks in its body to find defines)
19:51:06 <ais523> (variables in OCaml are like variables in Algol; the variable /itself/ is immutable once assigned, but the variable's /contents/ can be mutable)
19:51:31 <ais523> it's like writing int *const x = malloc(sizeof(int)) in C
19:51:34 <b_jonas> ais523: do they really? there are very convenient macros to encapsulate that kind of recursion with immutable variables changing from one iteration to another, and I think lisp programmers would mostly use those, just like Haskell programmers
19:52:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean, instead of writing a loop that repeatedly mutates some variables
19:52:25 <b_jonas> ais523: well yes then. but I think Haskell and SML programmers do that too.
19:52:36 <ais523> you write a function that's the loop body, give those variables as arguments, and have it "mutate" the variables from one loop iteration to the next by calling itself with differnet arguments
19:52:41 <b_jonas> lisp just makes the mutating version easier than in SML and much easier than in Haskell
19:52:59 <b_jonas> heck, while we're there, you do that in prolog too, don't you?
19:53:01 <ais523> the mutating version is pretty easy in OCaml given the sugar that exists
19:53:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I do it in anything that's remotely functional, I may be unusual though
19:53:22 <b_jonas> yes, it's pretty easy in scheme too because of macros that sugar it
19:53:36 <ais523> `` ocaml --help
19:53:37 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ocaml: command not found
19:53:41 <ais523> aww
19:53:57 <ais523> although it'd be quite complex to hook up to HackEso as it is
19:54:02 <ais523> it's not a very commandliney language
19:54:20 <b_jonas> we don't have gnu prolog either
19:54:33 <b_jonas> ``` ghc --version
19:54:34 <HackEso> bash: ghc: command not found
19:54:39 <b_jonas> ``` ghci --version
19:54:40 <HackEso> bash: ghci: command not found
19:54:53 <b_jonas> we can't have everything in HackEso
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19:55:06 <b_jonas> it already does a lot
19:57:47 <ais523> so this is what an imperative loop looks like in OCaml: https://tio.run/##HYtLDsIwDAX3OcVjx2cBLQskUHuVCBGHWnJt1EZqbx/cLt@8Gfu8R6lVqGBFh4ky2gdYwzKwEA4rejRIFuD/swPnjY2W0Lp@QxlIN3L1TTLvxRl3XNC8vPlNrCWSJmGl41x8fqPl6NTNU0imVOsf
19:58:28 <ais523> I like how clear the use/mention distinction is in OCaml, it distinguishes very clearly between a variable and its value
19:58:41 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, then that does seem to be stronger syntactic sugar than what scheme has
19:58:57 <b_jonas> oh wait, it has a reference
19:59:02 <b_jonas> then that is a mutating loop
19:59:09 <ais523> yes, that's a mutating loop
19:59:14 <ais523> not sugar for a recursive loop
19:59:14 <b_jonas> you can do that in scheme or SML then
19:59:21 <shachaf> I like the ALGOL 68/BLISS style but I'm not sure whether it's too complicated in practice.
20:00:04 <b_jonas> SML has mutable cells, the same kind that OCaml has; scheme doesn't directly have them, but you can implement them easily as library functions based on either mutable bindings, or on mutable conses, or on mutable vectors.
20:00:06 <shachaf> Especially if you have a whole bunch of !s in one line, for a bunch of mutable variable dereference and array indexing and so on.
20:00:33 <b_jonas> but for a simple loop like that, you wouldn't do that
20:00:44 <b_jonas> ais523: how does the sugar for a recursive loop like that work in OCaml?
20:00:46 <shachaf> Probably you can implement mutable cells in Scheme in terms of continuations if you want to be all schemey about it.
20:01:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: eek
20:01:33 <b_jonas> oh right, I needn't ask that, that's what Rosetta Code is forr
20:01:49 <ais523> b_jonas: here's the recursive version: https://tio.run/##HYtLDsIwDAX3OcVjx2cBLQskUHuVCBGHWnJt1EZqbx/cLt@8Gfu8R6lVqGBFh4ky2gdYwzKwEA4rejRIFuD/swPnjY2W0Lp@QxlIN3L1TTLvxRl3XNC8vPlNrCWSJmGl41x8fqPl6NTNU0imVOsf
20:02:26 <shachaf> Another thing is that if you convert something from an immutable to a mutable variable, you need to change x to !x everywhere in your code.
20:02:32 <ais523> or an alternative version: https://tio.run/##RYsxDsIwEAR7v2LLBISAUFAg@IqFnDOc5JxRYiQX/N1sCsQ1u7Oay@E@pdaSFMwSEHBFfFsoms19cMTuhq5nq2tbrUpDI2PKIwbCAeUpxmFPlLQI6wYnbPmt5vC716xWvNiY1KRbCvHhc/RcUfvLXwyoTo0xnFv7Ag
20:02:33 <shachaf> It admittedly has different semantics.
20:02:34 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ I don't think that's the url you wanted to paste
20:02:36 <b_jonas> the first one
20:02:59 <ais523> oh yes, I pasted the same link twice
20:03:10 <ais523> just use the second one, then, the match is more idiomatic than an if/then anyway
20:04:01 <b_jonas> I think you could translate that latter one to SML or haskell in a straightforward way; in lisp you'd have to use an if or some other conditional construct rather than pattern guards
20:04:34 <ais523> you can do it using if just fine, but OCaml's if syntax is ugly if the inside of the if is nontrivial
20:04:35 <b_jonas> oh yeah, we now have egel as our esoteric functional language with pattern guards too
20:05:35 <ais523> I would be surprised if there were constructs in OCaml that didn't translate easily to SML, apart from the object-oriented stuff and maybe polymorphic variants
20:06:57 <ais523> they belong to the same language family, after all
20:08:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric coder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73209 * DmilkaSTD * (+118) Created page with "== Uhm.. == Esocoder sounds better --~~~~"
20:08:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they share a common ancestor
20:08:55 <b_jonas> and yes, I should eventually get back to the egel language and install a version with a working wrapper to HackEso
20:09:04 <b_jonas> because it's such a conveniently useful esolang
20:10:05 <ais523> polymorphic variants are great, incidentally, they make some programming tasks (e.g. writing compilers for which intermediate representations have different constructs legal at different points in the compile) much easier
20:10:37 <b_jonas> that sounds nice. what are they?
20:10:55 <ais523> you basically just use enum tags at will, matching only on the tags you expect to be present at that point in the program, and generating only the ones you're supposed to generate
20:10:58 <b_jonas> are they open variants (like Haskell classes) or closed variants (like Haskell algebraic data types with disjuction)?
20:11:10 <ais523> and the compiler statically checks that the producers and consumers match up
20:11:18 <b_jonas> ah, anonymous closed variants then
20:11:23 <ais523> yes
20:11:43 <ais523> anonymous closed variants where you can reuse the same tags across different variants, perhaps with different types for the associated data
20:12:02 <b_jonas> can you also typedef specific unions of them, so that you get saner error messages from the typechecker?
20:12:05 <ais523> yes
20:12:08 <b_jonas> good
20:12:15 <b_jonas> yes, that sounds like very useful
20:12:47 <ais523> they can be open as well, if you write a match where the last case is _ then the type system takes note of that
20:13:04 <ais523> and will let the caller supply you anything
20:14:13 <b_jonas> in other languages, you have to simulate them in one way or another. you can simulate them with a wrapper to the largest enum type; or, if the related types are in a tree structure (which is common but not universal) with nested enums; or with some crazy magic in Haskell
20:14:18 <b_jonas> I don't remember how the last one works
20:14:22 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73210&oldid=73166 * Emerald * (+2) Fixed heading size
20:15:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah, also with defining each type as separate enums and using compiler magic to write implicit cast functions from one to the other
20:15:35 <ais523> the OCaml implementation isn't quite as good as it could be, occasionally you need to explicitly write casts
20:15:44 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what causes that to happen
20:16:01 <b_jonas> I was just thinking of these because I have an interpreter that may require such variant types where there are two related enums that overlap but neither is a subset of the other
20:16:49 <b_jonas> ais523: do you still have to write explicit casts if the involved enum types are closed and there are no free type paramters?
20:17:16 <ais523> b_jonas: it's confusing, I haven't figured out the exact trigger, it doesn't happen very often
20:17:37 <ais523> I think it's something like, if you use the same variable in two different contexts, and one context allows more variants than the other
20:17:41 <ais523> you need to write a cast
20:17:42 <b_jonas> no wait, that's not what I wanted to ask
20:17:49 <ais523> because the type inference algorithm is expecting each variable to have only one type
20:18:15 <b_jonas> ais523: do you still have to write explicit casts if the involved enum types are closed and there are no free type paramters, and the content of every constructor is exactly the same type everywhere (as opposed to a constructor appearing with different types, one of which is a subtype of another)?
20:18:35 <ais523> so if x can be either `A or `B, you can use it as a parameter to a function expecting a [`A | `B], or as a parameter to a function expecting a [`A | `B | `C]
20:18:46 <ais523> but if you try to use it with both, you need to write a cast or the type inference algorithm gets confused
20:19:16 <ais523> I think that's the only case that needs a cast, though
20:19:17 <b_jonas> ais523: how do you use the same variable as two different ones of those if the variable is immutable?
20:19:43 <ais523> b_jonas: well the variable is either a `A or a `B, right?
20:19:53 <ais523> so any function which accepts `A and `B as possible tags should be able to accept it
20:21:21 <ais523> or, hmm, this works: https://tio.run/##fcqxDsIwDIThnae4sR0YgLECCXiQFBU7WAoOal2pQ989xIi523@nLw@PdyolkYFxBs86mGRFf8X@ggNW9Devo9fd6wTRnfu47f9qqUoYNs4Ee9FPUprIXSWfUdQC6TOJUjNZnTFkDvVtGEvbdpskOinlCw
20:21:30 <b_jonas> ais523: is that even if you explicitly type the variable to an enum that can be `A or `B, as opposed to some case where the type inference just can't derive that because of confusing loops?
20:21:36 <ais523> so either the bug with casting has been fixed, or the cause is more complex
20:22:18 <ais523> here's how it looks with an explicit type: https://tio.run/##fYsxDsIwDEV3TvHHdmCAbiCQgGMglKLiBEvBqVpX6tC7hxgxd3v2fy91z0/MOZLC4wQ/SaecBO0F2zN2WNBejfZGN6MGLBvzw7r/t2YccC@rDY9SsIcOE0Hf9KsojmRN0fuBRR3JK7JQNWo5g0velW/lMdf1cVUJpuT8BQ
20:22:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wow, that looks like it has way too few parenthesis for something like this
20:23:40 <ais523> just for you, the same program with no parentheses: https://tio.run/##jYtBCsJADEX3PcW/gAt1p1hQjyEylZqMgTEjbQpd9O7jRFyLu5f893J/e6ZSEhkYB/CkvUlWdEesWqyxoDs5bZzOTluINu7H3/7XmrHDpa4@XGshDBsmgj3oU1EayZuqc5WXFqMNojFkDqLmj1e9LZDekyjtm/iPVsob
20:23:46 <b_jonas> I'll assume the cause is more complex, and it involves a case where the type inference algorithm can't easily see that the function can get only an `A or `B
20:23:51 <ais523> if you remove the explict type from x it has no brackets either!
20:24:08 <b_jonas> heh
20:24:20 <ais523> (|>) is the equivalent of flip ($)
20:24:25 <ais523> from Haskell
20:24:29 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73211&oldid=73208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190)
20:24:48 <ais523> and is probably the more readable argument order
20:25:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if OCaml even has ($) in its standard library, but it's easy enough to implement
20:25:34 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73212&oldid=73210 * Emerald * (+319) Persuade
20:25:36 <ais523> OCaml operator names get a bit weird sometimes, because for mental parseability, all operators that start with the same first character have the same precedence
20:25:43 <b_jonas> ais523: the (general) identity function was added to the rust standard library only like a year ago
20:25:46 <ais523> e.g. |> has the same precedence as ||
20:25:47 <b_jonas> and it's useful
20:26:01 <b_jonas> and yes, it's also trivial to implement
20:26:05 <ais523> what type does it have?
20:26:14 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a generic function actually, so no single type
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20:26:16 <ais523> (in Rust, it's obvious in most languages)
20:26:30 <ais523> right, I was trying to figure out how you typed it in Rust
20:26:41 <b_jonas> it's like fn<T> identity(v: T) -> T { v }
20:26:46 <int-e> > let f = \case True -> 1; False -> 2 in map f [False ..] -- does this have too few parentheses as well?
20:26:49 <lambdabot> [2,1]
20:26:49 <ais523> ah right, of course
20:26:56 <b_jonas> so the specific type for any one T is fn(T) -> T
20:27:12 <b_jonas> the generic one doesn't have a type and can't be used as a first-class value
20:27:34 <b_jonas> sort of like in C++ until perhaps lately when they made them usable as a class value with a templated overloaded () operator
20:27:50 <ais523> I guess you could set T to dyn Any, but that isn't all that useful a type
20:28:14 <ais523> … would identity even work on dyn Any, or would you need a box?
20:28:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think it would work, or at least it wouldn't be useful
20:29:01 <b_jonas> ais523: one of the reasons why the identity function is useful is that it lets you write type ascriptions, sort of like (expression :: SomeSpecificType) in haskell
20:29:11 <ais523> ah, that isn't what I was guessing at all
20:29:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73213&oldid=73170 * Emerald * (+205) /* Tips For Making a Golfing Language */
20:29:23 <b_jonas> so you write them as identity<SomeSpecificType>(expression) in rust
20:29:28 <ais523> I thought you used it as a parameter to a higher-order function
20:29:32 <ais523> and no, you don't write them as that
20:29:37 <ais523> the < in that is the less-than operator
20:29:42 <b_jonas> yeah
20:29:49 <ais523> identity::<SomeSpecificType>::(expression)
20:29:53 <b_jonas> identity::<SomeSpecificType>(expression)
20:29:56 <ais523> not sure on the last ::
20:30:03 <b_jonas> no, I think it's a :: only on the left
20:30:11 <b_jonas> and I think the right one is an error
20:30:26 <ais523> yes; there /is/ a context where you need the :: on the right too, but it isn't that context
20:30:32 <b_jonas> and yes, you can also use it as a parameter to a higher-order function, which is the official argument for why it's in the stdlib now
20:31:25 <b_jonas> the same thing is useful in C++ too by the way, where it's not in the standard library yet, but I've used it for years in my previous work
20:31:38 <b_jonas> I call it ret_cast but I don't think that's a standard name
20:32:09 <ais523> it's very similar to static_cast, I guess
20:32:20 <ais523> the only difference is that you can take its address, I think?
20:32:32 <b_jonas> no, that's not the difference
20:32:37 <ais523> thus letting you use it as a function argument even without giving it an argument
20:32:50 <b_jonas> the difference is that it doesn't do certain explicit conversions that static_cast would do without a warning
20:33:05 <ais523> oh, such as long to int?
20:33:12 <b_jonas> no, long to int is the one I want to do without a warning
20:33:21 <b_jonas> numeric conversion is my primary use for ret_cast
20:33:26 <b_jonas> and that's why it has a rather long definition,
20:33:37 <ais523> I kind-of assumed static_cast would warn for the weirder conversions
20:33:38 <b_jonas> because you need to suppress warnings about implicit number conversion in that one function
20:33:40 <ais523> but maybe it doesn't
20:33:47 <ais523> void* to intptr_t, for example
20:34:02 <ais523> I guess there has to be a way to show that's intentional
20:34:11 <b_jonas> I think static_cast will call a one-argument constructor marked as explicit, without a warning
20:34:17 <b_jonas> that's the main problem
20:34:26 <b_jonas> but the detailed rules are so complicated that I can't remember them
20:34:28 <b_jonas> C++ is weird
20:34:41 <b_jonas> so I gave up and just use ret_cast whenever I don't want such a surprise
20:36:52 <b_jonas> the definition is: #if _MSC_VER \ #pragma warning(push) \ #pragma warning(disable: 4244 4267) \ #endif \ template<typename dest_type, typename src_type> inline dest_type ret_cast(src_type &&x) { return std::forward<src_type>(x); } \ #if _MSC_VER \ #pragma warning(pop) \ #endif
20:37:26 <b_jonas> and I think there's some magic syntax to suppress the same warnings in gcc/clang too, but it's not the same as in MSVC and I haven't looked up what it is
20:37:52 <ais523> thinking about it, void* to intptr_t should be reinterpret_cast, really
20:38:04 <ais523> but maybe there are machines in which the bits actually change
20:38:15 <esowiki> [[ReThue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73214&oldid=50430 * DmilkaSTD * (+24)
20:38:33 <ais523> what are the two warnings being disabled?
20:38:36 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's a reinterpret_cast, not a static_cast, and the bits can change in a reinterpret_cast, but again I'm not sure about the rules
20:38:58 <b_jonas> ais523: uh, something about implicit numeric conversion, but I'm not sure what, I'd have to look it up in the MSVC docs
20:39:15 <ais523> oh, I see, you're explicitly turning off long-to-int style warnings
20:39:33 <ais523> I don't know enough C++ to properly follow the moves here
20:39:45 <b_jonas> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/error-messages/compiler-warnings/compiler-warning-levels-3-and-4-c4244?view=vs-2019
20:39:57 <ais523> if you use ret_cast on a variable, does its value get moved? I'm guessing no, because prefix && acts only on rvalues?
20:40:52 <ais523> also wow is that site badly organized
20:41:00 <ais523> you can't guess the URL for any particular warning
20:41:08 <b_jonas> ais523: admittedly that's for an old verions of MSVC I think
20:41:13 <b_jonas> but yes
20:41:19 <ais523> because it depends on some arbitrary grouping that you wouldn't be able to learn without first finding the page for the warning
20:42:37 <b_jonas> ais523: if you use it on a non-const varible of say type int, then it gets instantiated with src_type being int &, in which case the magic && in the argument list disappears because there's a & before it, and the function takes int & as a type, so it takes a non-const reference to the variable and copies ity
20:43:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73215&oldid=73150 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* J */ + [[Jumplang]]
20:43:34 <b_jonas> whereas if you call it on an rvalue of type int, say ret_cast<long)(3+x), then the src_type is derived to be int, the function takes an argument int &&, and moves that value
20:43:44 <b_jonas> for an int this doesn't matter too much, because moving and copying it is the same thing
20:43:46 <ais523> how C++
20:44:09 <ais523> even Rust's move vs. copy rules are more complex than I'd like
20:44:13 <ais523> but this is worse
20:44:19 <ais523> (yes, I know Rust's are simple)
20:44:41 <b_jonas> but for a non-trivial type where moving and copying isn't the same, it can matter, and this mostly does the Right Thing^TM, except if you try to pass an initializer-list into it
20:45:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73216&oldid=73162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) /* Languages */
20:50:57 <b_jonas> also, today I read some of the (easy parts of) the source code of ImageMagick, to figure out what the interface of a certain public API function in MagickWand is, since it wasn't properly documented
20:52:38 <b_jonas> luckily the command line ImageMagick programs are implemented (mostly) in terms of MagickWand (the high-level C api of ImageMagick), so the source code for that has a place where it calls this function, and I could find out what it expects as the second argument from there
20:52:47 <zzo38> Which function?
20:53:23 <zzo38> (And, what version of ImageMagick?)
20:53:50 <b_jonas> MagickSetImageChannelMask and ImageMagick 7
20:54:07 <b_jonas> this corresponds to the -channel setting in command line
20:54:42 <b_jonas> the second argument is a bitmask for which enum values are defined in a header
20:56:35 <b_jonas> and I need this for the -combine operation, which takes multiple grayscale images and converts them to a single image with those used as different channels, but you have to tell what those channels are, eg. RGB, RGBA, IA, CYMK, etc, and you use the -channel option for that
20:56:55 <b_jonas> and then you have to restore that setting with +channel, which calls the same function with some default argument
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21:02:34 <zzo38> Do you know if the latest version of ImageMagick supports YCoCg, and if it supports farbfeld, and if it supports pictures with custom separations?
21:04:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know if it supports YCoCg specifically. It has some formats that read YUV and convert it to RGB immediately, and the inverse for writing. It probably doesn't have too much support for keeping an image as YUV, but you can probably still do it just have to be careful with all operations that assume RGB or CYMK.
21:04:58 <b_jonas> and I don't know about custom separations, but I think ImageMagick 7 specifically improved about handling custom channels or color spaces compared to ImageMagick 6
21:05:04 <b_jonas> I don't know the details though
21:05:16 <zzo38> Yes, I thought I read that too, but I don't know the details either.
21:06:53 <b_jonas> it says there's a "YCbCr" and "YCbCrA" format, I don't know if that's the same as YCoCg; and there's a YUV format for YUV with subsampling
21:08:59 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73217&oldid=73211 * Emerald * (+726) Commands
21:12:30 <zzo38> I think it isn't the same as YCoCg.
21:14:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: anyway, I mostly used ffmpeg to read or write YUV format, but not too much, mostly ffmpeg just did conversion to/from YUV formats implicitly because that's how jpeg and and many compressed video formats store colors
21:16:27 <zzo38> Although conversion between YCoCg and RGB is lossless anyways, so simply if you want to use file formats that support YCoCg, there is no need for ImageMagick to support them directly, unless you want to directly manipulate the data in YCoCg format, such as to separate them.
21:17:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: also I used ffmpeg to read uncompressed bayer mosaic frames, which is what digital color camera sensors actually capture, and high-end cameras can send you the raw uncompressed thing (if you can take the bandwidth)
21:17:42 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73218&oldid=73217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Commands */ clarify
21:18:06 <b_jonas> ffmpeg can read them and debayer them
21:18:19 <b_jonas> and then I encode that to a lossy compressed video
21:18:23 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73219&oldid=73218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Differences from brainfuck */
21:18:37 <zzo38> O, OK. I have not worked with that, although it does seem something you may want to deal with.
21:18:47 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73220&oldid=73219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) /* Commands */
21:18:58 <zzo38> But I think the raw camera format is TIFF, so requires parsing all of the TIFF stuff?
21:19:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are various brand-specific raw camera formats, some of which are TIFF, and most of them are compressed to some amount for photo cameras, because compression is useful; the uncompressed bayer was for a video camera,
21:20:37 <b_jonas> there the hard part is getting the uncompressed raw video stream (in a high enough frame rate that we need) through the network, and we did set up a network that has bandwidth for that,
21:21:34 <b_jonas> and if you do have such a bandwidth then the compression would just hurt. this was over ethernet, but some other camera models send similar uncompressed bayer frames through USB instead
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22:03:28 <zzo38> Other possibility might be to use a kind of digital video connection, although I think that they are not designed for use with Bayer frames. Still, you could perhaps use Digi-RGB with monochrome or pre-interpolated data, and then if they are pre-interpolated (which must be done in a reversible way, if this is to be done), to reverse this operation on the receiver.
22:05:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: we don't need to reverse the debayering. we want to debayer it anyway, transform it to some YUV format with chroma subsampling, and compress it. ffmpeg can do all those steps for me.
22:06:11 <b_jonas> all this is for digital cameras; feed from analog cameras is worse because it's often interlaced odd/even rows
22:07:45 <zzo38> Yes, you usually don't need to reverse the debayering. But I don't know if someone will sometimes need it.
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22:20:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73221 * Emerald * (+1016) /* Turing-Completeness */ new section
22:20:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73222&oldid=73221 * Emerald * (+25) /* Turing-Completeness */
22:25:00 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73223&oldid=73220 * Emerald * (+18) /* Turing-completeness */
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22:53:29 <zzo38> I looked at the documentation of GNU troff, which describes the font file format it uses. It lacks some features that TeX has, and has some features that TeX doesn't have. Such as, the only ligatures it supports are "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", and "ffl"; the metrics includes not only italic correction but also left italic correction and subscript correction.
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23:18:34 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73224&oldid=73223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64)
23:37:42 <esowiki> [[(1) Grace sent you a message]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73225&oldid=72821 * Hakerh400 * (+558) /* Computational class */
23:39:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73226&oldid=73197 * Hakerh400 * (+112) /* Computational class */
2020-06-04
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00:19:37 <tswett[m]> I just made a particularly interesting typo: I tried to type "Horizontal" but it came out as "Hozitaon".
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00:22:59 <tswett[m]> The typo makes a lot of sense if I make note of which letters are typed on which hand: HO-r-I-z-ON-ta-L versus HO-z-I-ta-ON.
00:24:25 <tswett[m]> Each hand typed its letters in the correct order, but two pairs of segments each commuted, and knocked out the adjacent segments on the same hand.
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01:14:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73227&oldid=73213 * JonoCode9374 * (+226) /* Tips For Making a Golfing Language */
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02:02:29 <esowiki> [[NewFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73228&oldid=68814 * DmilkaSTD * (+30)
02:06:25 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73229&oldid=73193 * DmilkaSTD * (+46)
02:09:12 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73230&oldid=73229 * DmilkaSTD * (+70)
02:10:34 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73231&oldid=73230 * DmilkaSTD * (+15)
02:32:33 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73232&oldid=73224 * Hakerh400 * (+101) Add Cat program and interpreter
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05:01:05 <zzo38> Do any letters with descenders need accents below?
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07:10:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that combination exists
07:11:15 <b_jonas> let me find a reference
07:32:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, I think I was wrong, it looks like that combination doesn't commonly exist, except in some weird cases like IPA-like pronunciation notation and maths formulas and old obscure stuff where basically any combination exists.
07:34:34 <b_jonas> I thought for some reason that the Latvian lowercase g with cedilla/comma can be written with the comma below, but that is apparently false
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08:08:03 <cpressey> Good morning.
08:10:35 <rain1> hi!
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08:16:04 <cpressey> I have a lot of things I'd like to do but very little time to do them in. So I have to prioritize them. But I don't have a good reason for doing any of them, other than they are interesting to me -- so I don't have an effective way to prioritize them.
08:22:19 <cpressey> If I try to apply conventional ways of prioritizing them, like trying to judge their "importance", it's totally inapplicable (because none of them can be said to be "important") and worse, under those conditions, working on any of them feels like a chore.
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09:36:37 <wib_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spacedout/
09:36:39 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spacedout/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
09:38:10 <myname> i don't get it
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10:36:26 <wib_jonas> cpressey: is any of them urgent in the sense that if you don't do them soon enough they may become impossible in a few years? is any of them anti-urgent in that they will likely become much easier in a few years?
10:54:09 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73233 * Chris Pressey * (+2987) Created page with "{{lowercase}} The '''SKA-calculus''' and the '''ask-calculus''' are products of a thought experiment by [[Chris Pressey]] in or around May 2020 to produce a [[concatenative]]..."
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11:00:51 <cpressey> Well I don't mean to be morbid or anything but I tend to assume that in a few years I'll be dead.
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14:19:00 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73234 * Shaman * (+5321) Created page with " '''Nutes''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] claimed by [[Yoel Matveyev]] to be invented in 2017, while posted on Github in 2019. It is an [[OISC]] virtual machine op..."
14:21:41 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73235&oldid=73234 * Shaman * (-4)
14:25:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73236&oldid=73109 * Yoel * (+5) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
14:32:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73237&oldid=73236 * Yoel * (+110) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
14:44:42 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73238&oldid=73235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) rm redlnks
14:49:27 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73239&oldid=73233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
14:50:08 <esowiki> [[Renumbering/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73240&oldid=64757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) cat
14:51:37 <esowiki> [[Renumbering/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73241&oldid=73240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39)
15:00:47 <esowiki> [[Ask-calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73242&oldid=73239 * Chris Pressey * (+38) Clarification of the operational semantics that might be imagined here
15:06:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73243&oldid=73216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Programs */
15:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73244&oldid=72921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43)
15:14:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73245&oldid=72405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+704)
15:15:47 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73246&oldid=51668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) unpipe cross-namespace link
15:15:54 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73247&oldid=73246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
15:16:11 <esowiki> [[V (DJMcMayhem)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73248&oldid=73247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
15:17:13 <esowiki> [[BFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73249&oldid=65607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+117) cats
15:18:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73250&oldid=73153 * Chris Pressey * (+34) There are 45 pages in the "Golfing language" category, so it seems deserved to mention it on this page.
15:20:33 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73251&oldid=65729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) /* Computational class */ how is this a person?
15:21:02 <esowiki> [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73252&oldid=66117 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cats
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16:01:57 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73253&oldid=65928 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Counting up */ cat
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17:41:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AC01010 * New user account
17:42:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73254&oldid=73203 * AC01010 * (+169)
17:42:57 <esowiki> [[Apple Pie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73255&oldid=71621 * AC01010 * (+1)
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19:26:34 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73256&oldid=59155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-846) big cleanup
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19:32:41 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73258&oldid=73257 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
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19:44:00 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73259&oldid=72942 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+176) /* Cat program (1 character) */
19:44:13 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73260&oldid=73259 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Add two inputs */ cat
19:44:31 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73261&oldid=73260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Expressions */
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20:17:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73262&oldid=73222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2257)
20:18:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73263&oldid=73262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
20:19:23 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73264&oldid=73232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) /* Turing-completeness */
20:19:38 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73265&oldid=73264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Interpreters */
20:19:55 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73266&oldid=73265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Interpreters */
20:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/GUI Display Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73267&oldid=73205 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
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23:45:58 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73268&oldid=73122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+317) /* Switches */
23:47:27 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73269&oldid=73268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Switches */
2020-06-05
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00:44:49 <esowiki> [[Proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73270&oldid=16530 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Setting variables */ cats
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02:50:20 <zzo38> Does Google Groups have cross-posting? I suspect that maybe it doesn't.
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04:07:05 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+3062) LS Basic is a dialect of BASIC which interprets sums of letters.
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04:09:26 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73272&oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+72) /* Arithmetic */
04:10:22 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73273&oldid=73272 * Simplemaker * (+97)
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04:11:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73274&oldid=73215 * Simplemaker * (+15) /* L */
04:16:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73275&oldid=73273 * Simplemaker * (+198)
04:18:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73276&oldid=73275 * Simplemaker * (-2) /* Obfuscated Version */
04:21:09 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73277&oldid=73276 * Simplemaker * (+794)
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05:51:29 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73278&oldid=73238 * Shaman * (+3) /* Description */
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05:57:58 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73279&oldid=73278 * Shaman * (+312)
06:01:24 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73280&oldid=73279 * Shaman * (+53) /* Description */
06:03:09 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73281&oldid=73280 * Shaman * (-4)
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06:15:50 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73282&oldid=73281 * Yoel * (+93)
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06:17:35 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73283&oldid=73282 * Yoel * (+21) /* See also */
06:26:08 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73284&oldid=73188 * Yoel * (+176)
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06:54:43 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73285 * Yoel * (+5479) Created page with "A '''Markov algorithm''', names after the Soviet mathematician Andrey Markov, Jr., is a string rewriting system that uses replacement rules to operate on a string of symbols...."
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07:12:31 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73286&oldid=73285 * Yoel * (-27)
07:21:39 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73287&oldid=73286 * B jonas * (+10) /* See also */
07:24:15 <b_jonas> @tell arseniiv Unless an antipodan volunteers, you're the #esoteric Official Eclipse Observer for tonight (2020-06-05), on account of everyone else is too much to the west
07:24:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:25:22 <esowiki> [[1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73288&oldid=69605 * B jonas * (+21)
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08:16:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73289&oldid=73237 * Yoel * (+5)
08:30:43 <oren> is it possible to express the julia set or the mandelbrot set in heraldic blazon?
08:35:10 <oren> It would be easy to blazon the sierpinski carpet
08:40:46 <cpressey> I don't know but if you turn the Mandelbrot set on its side it looks a little like an entire heraldic achievement :)
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09:38:29 <wib_jonas> oren: hmm, is there a standard fractal recursion extension for heraldic blazon already, perhaps because there are coats of arms that mutually contain a small copy of each other?
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09:52:20 <int-e> fungot: help
09:52:20 <fungot> int-e: it's the truth, which i think is the best way
09:55:09 <Taneb> wib_jonas: mise en abyme?
09:56:06 <wib_jonas> Taneb: I tried to web search for recursive coats of arms and found that phrase, but apparently it just means that a section in the middle of a coat of arms is a different coat of arms, and haven't found an actually infinitely recursive example
09:56:36 <Taneb> Aww#
09:58:43 <int-e> fungot: does this channel weird you out sometimes as well?
09:58:43 <fungot> int-e: that blogger also ircs on qemu if you want
09:58:58 <int-e> fungot: I'll take that as a yes.
09:58:58 <fungot> int-e: fnord/ fnord/ fnord and have scheme render it for you"
09:59:15 <int-e> fungot: Well, that's not very supportive.
09:59:15 <fungot> int-e: here is my error: error: attempt to apply non-procedure ' 2' 50 years ago)
09:59:31 <int-e> fungot: one more?
10:00:28 <int-e> Hmm, I thought the quota was 5 messages. Maybe I had one earlier and nobody talked to fungot in the meantime.
10:02:00 <wib_jonas> fungot: Brahms's "Hungarian dances" consists of how many tracks, which track is the most popular, why are the tracks with the low indexes the best, and is that deceptive false advertising like when you put the more fresh fruit on the top of the pile?
10:02:00 <fungot> wib_jonas: 1 cakeprophet: ps
10:02:26 <wib_jonas> int-e: there, now you have one more
10:03:01 <int-e> thanks, I don't know where I'd be without the resident psychotherapist :P
10:04:53 <wib_jonas> ^style
10:04:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
10:05:19 <int-e> `' semi-sentient
10:05:20 <HackEso> 1246) <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
10:06:52 <wib_jonas> nah, the "yes, i know" is an example of fungot's spambot style that I often see on irc or forums, the sort of statement that a bot could post basically anywhere. that's why I try not to react in chat when new people enter and say only something like "hi", nothing specifically relevant to the current topic or the topic of the chat room
10:06:52 <fungot> wib_jonas: i was wondering about that for now, evoli? or perhaps garbage? i
10:08:04 <wib_jonas> but fungot does often manage to give replies that do seem relevant to our topics, and those are the quotable ones that I enjoy. plus a different class of weird utterances that do seem like they come from a messed up chatbot yet are intrinsically funny for some reason.
10:08:04 <fungot> wib_jonas: you can access them by position. i wonder if i should connect it there. :-p help would be welcome :)
10:12:03 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1323 # this one, for example, is good because fungot's reply is directly relevant to the previous sentences in a way that seems to requires deep understanding
10:12:03 <fungot> wib_jonas: apparently ms also invented multiple level undo/ redo mechanism by which to extend it with support for concurrency.) didn't take much effort to come up with a nice beginner interactive environment.
10:12:07 <wib_jonas> no, not that one
10:12:07 <HackEso> 1323) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
10:12:16 <wib_jonas> ^ that one
10:12:42 <shachaf> hi wib_jonas
10:13:56 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1194 # here's a worse example: it is a good joke, but not one that's particularly high context, the same reply could apply to many statements
10:13:57 <HackEso> 1194) <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need? <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
10:14:45 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I said "new people". when they're already someone I've met I may react, because it's much less likely that they're a chatbot
10:14:59 <shachaf> Hmm?
10:15:18 <shachaf> Oh.
10:15:23 <shachaf> I didn't see that message. I was only saying hi.
10:18:28 * wib_jonas looks up the guide at https://xkcd.com/222/
10:18:31 <wib_jonas> hi shachaf
10:20:12 <shachaf> I wrote a small library for argument parsing in C.
10:25:09 <wib_jonas> shachaf: can you show it to us?
10:25:53 <shachaf> Yes, in a moment.
10:27:03 <int-e> "Can we C?"
10:29:43 <shachaf> wib_jonas: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
10:38:58 <wib_jonas> shachaf: that looks fine
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10:39:38 <shachaf> Yes, it's not earth-shattering, but maybe nicer to use than getopt_long.
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12:31:00 <shachaf> catern: Neato.
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14:24:32 <cpressey> I had this idea. ∀ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∧'s, and ∃ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∨'s, right? But ∧ and ∨ are just 2 of the 16 possible binary logical connectives. So there are at least 14 other possible quantifiers! But not all connectives are commutative like ∧ and ∨ are. For any of the non-commutative connectives, you'd need to
14:24:33 <cpressey> make it work on an ordered structure somehow.
14:25:18 <cpressey> But if you're OK with that, then the → quantifier looks to me as if it represents... mathematical induction... ?
14:46:59 <cpressey> The ↔ quantifier is commutative; if we notate it as [↔] then [↔]x.p(x) is equivalent to (∀x.p(x)) ∨ (∀x.¬p(x)) I think
14:49:06 <cpressey> The ⊕ connective (XOR) is also commutative. But, hmm. Maybe that's not enough.
14:53:13 <cpressey> It needs to be idempotent, is that it?
14:57:01 <cpressey> "Idempotent" isn't quite the right word, maybe "monotonic" is better.
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15:02:24 <arseniiv> cpressey: hm interesting but I
15:02:25 <arseniiv> oops
15:03:08 <arseniiv> …but I’m afraid there are strong no-go results re. this idea. For example I don’t think → qualifies
15:03:41 <arseniiv> I think first, the operation should be associative, and this denies us → and ↔
15:04:57 <arseniiv> associativity is absolutely needed when we want to define an operation on nonempty lists from an operation on pairs, likewise we need a neutral element to define the operation on empty lists
15:05:50 <arseniiv> hm also I hadn’t thought about operations on circular lists, it would be interesting, but that’s for another conversation
15:12:15 <arseniiv> now, why could ⊕ be a bad choice?.. hm at first it seems why not: it’s associative and has 0 as neutral element, all nice. Though it may be the case idempotence you named is after all the right restriction to add. It means it doesn’t matter how many times we accidentally count the same element in the underlying set, which is quite natural, though for example Σ doesn’t treat its domain that way. On the other hand it doesn’t tr
15:12:16 <arseniiv> eat it that way because usually we sum not over a set, but over a function’s range, which shouldn’t be considered a mere set then, as it allows taking any value a specific number of times, which a mere set doesn’t distinguish
15:12:51 <zzo38> shachaf: I think a problem with that is that it incorrectly outputs non-ASCII characters without checking the locale.
15:17:21 <arseniiv> one can also see that ¬∀ and ¬∃ can’t arise in such a way from some operation, pity. Now we see why ∀ and ∃ have their own symbols but ¬∀ and ∄ have at the best part derivative ones
15:20:28 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73291&oldid=68227 * Simplemaker * (+5) /* Copying values */
15:21:17 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73292&oldid=73291 * Simplemaker * (+7) /* Copying values */
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15:31:59 <cpressey> arseniiv: Oh gosh, is ↔ not associative? I think of it as "equals, except for truth values", and since = is associative... OK, I'll have to think about this more.
15:32:39 <cpressey> Well, ok, no, = isn't associative, we just use it in an abuse of notation where it looks associative: a = b = c
15:33:11 <cpressey> I managed to confuse that with transitive because of that
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15:37:48 <arseniiv> cpressey: that’s no big deal, though a long time ago when I tried to get myself into logic, I got confused by one book where due to a clumsy explanation of a ≡ b ≡ c ≡ … notation I thought that’s the same as ((a ≡ b) ≡ c) ≡ …
15:40:14 <arseniiv> hmmm I have a decent question about computational geometry of tesselations but I don’t know how to state it in brief to not confuse anyone more than necessary
15:56:04 <arseniiv> let’s say it this way: there are a couple of polygonal “prototype tiles” and a (finite) polygonal tesselation seed which is ultimately a set of “concrete tiles” glued to each other. We are to glue a prototype to the seed along an oriented edge of each of them. To do that, we find an euclidean transformation mapping that edge in the prototype to the edge in the seed, and applying that transformation to the prototype, getting a
15:56:05 <arseniiv> new concrete tile. Using floating point arithmetic, this operation adds inaccuracies to the seed’s vertices more and more as we glue new tiles into it. But an ideal tesselation seed is a rigid construction, so there should be a way to recalculate vertices in all the concrete tiles for them to regain some accuracy. Which is the question; what do I have to do to do this?
15:58:43 <arseniiv> why this arises at all: I’m afraid if one makes a core in a form of big thin annulus, then there may be problems filling it inside, let alone there may be a problem closing the annulus in the first place
15:59:11 <cpressey> arseniiv: Can you represent each tile as a composition of the series of euclidean transformations that led up to it?
15:59:28 <arseniiv> or any other state when you glue tiles each time to the new tiles, so the error would accumulate
15:59:38 <arseniiv> cpressey: oh, interesting!
16:00:01 <arseniiv> but the error would accumulate anyway, wouldn’t it?
16:00:35 <arseniiv> maybe even more hm, though I’m not sure
16:01:15 <cpressey> Well, if the transformations themselves involve floating point, then yes, error would accumulate there, but could you represent them exactly somehow, with algebraic numbers?
16:01:39 <arseniiv> (storing already transformed points seems more useful for computing e. g. edge lengths and angles)
16:01:42 <cpressey> And only introduce floating point, and its error, at the end
16:03:00 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, I thought about “constructible numbers” like Q[√2][√(5+√2)] but they need much space and the algorithms are quite complex
16:03:34 <arseniiv> I realized only today one can use rigidity of the construction
16:05:36 <arseniiv> oh, also if you’re accidentally interested in numbers of that form, I’ll try to dig out an article with the algorithms
16:06:01 <arseniiv> I rewrote them in Mathematica so my code is unhelpful even to me as of now
16:06:18 <arseniiv> I didn’t even comment it as needed
16:06:45 <arseniiv> (I even don’t remember if it’s complete and working as it should, lol)
16:07:22 <cpressey> I know very little about computational geometry but your question was very similar to a discussion I remember having with someone many, many years ago.
16:07:41 <arseniiv> ah, I didn’t tell that I tried to prototype the thing a year or something ago, and then left it for a while, only yesterday to remember about why not again
16:08:22 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting! what you talked about?
16:09:11 <arseniiv> did you talk*
16:12:21 <cpressey> I think it was about animating a rotating cube, rotating it a small amount on each frame, and the person I was talking to was worried that floating point error on each frame would accumulate
16:13:00 <cpressey> This was the 90's
16:14:33 <cpressey> Long before we had GPUs to do all this stuff for us :)
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16:17:26 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting but that has some merit even now, as multiplying quaternions is better than multiplying rotation matrices
16:18:02 <arseniiv> like, there is an obvious sensible way to normalize a quaternion and not a simple one to “orthogonalize” a matrix
16:18:18 <arseniiv> also, quaternions allow SLERP
16:18:40 <arseniiv> I mean, quite easlily allow, vs. the matrices
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16:29:03 <arseniiv> though in applying a quaternion to a vector, one should be considerate and use an optimized procedure, not just make usual quaternion multiplication, which would be quite costly
16:29:03 <arseniiv> ah, and also for rotating many vectors in bunch, it’s better to convert q. to a matrix and use the latter, so matrices are useful at the end
16:29:03 <arseniiv> okay I spam the channel with googlable stuff sorry, though that’s a pretty neat stuff, I can’t get over it even if I don’t write 3D applications almost at all
16:29:03 <arseniiv> (and I intended to add a bit about logarithms, but IRC was wise to shut me out)
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16:29:52 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah! am I late?
16:30:24 <arseniiv> I didn’t know about an eclipse at all, is it lunar? I’ll go look
16:31:34 <arseniiv> though I have no good observation erm places, there are trees blocking the way the Moon usually is at that time
16:36:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: en.wikipedia says “It will be visible in most parts of Europe (except northern Scandinavia)”, well-well!
16:36:53 <arseniiv> also Stellarium doesn’t show any dimming, meh, do I want to see that kind of eclipse
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16:46:14 <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software?
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17:47:42 <shachaf> zzo38: But I like UTF-8.
17:48:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, if you want to output UTF-8 in the error message, you should probably first check the locale to ensure that it is UTF-8, and to output ASCII instead otherwise. (You could store those substrings in global variables, and initialize them based on the locale.)
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18:39:22 <olsner> heh, argument pa*r*sing, I read "a library for argument passing in C"
18:47:19 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73293&oldid=73277 * Simplemaker * (+83)
19:03:59 <esowiki> [[Klon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73294&oldid=33133 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) cats + reorder sections
19:05:32 <esowiki> [[DOG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73295&oldid=23278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold title
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20:21:04 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73297&oldid=73293 * Simplemaker * (+10) /* See Also */
20:25:41 <esowiki> [[Dumbf*ck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73298&oldid=44185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
20:32:42 <zzo38> I read the Wikipedia article about microtypography. I seem to remember someone mentioned that DVI is not compatible with microtypography, but actually it is capable of all of the things listed there, without needing any specials; the only exception is changing the widths of fonts, when you are not using a fixed set of font widths and instead allow a continuous range; this is the only thing of those that DVI doesn't do (although in my e
20:33:07 <esowiki> [[PESOIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73299&oldid=41869 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
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21:08:07 <rain1> I will check it out about microtypography
21:10:04 <arseniiv> <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software? => when I had Celestia installed, I think there was a thing to prognose eclispes at several solar system bodies (and on Earth), but now I don’t use Celestia
21:11:55 <int-e> I think it's "prognosticate".
21:12:26 <int-e> (Or just "predict")
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21:14:54 <shachaf> What do you think of the argument-parser-o-matic 16,000?
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21:15:13 <shachaf> Should I introduce more macros to make it less verbose and more magic?
21:15:21 <shachaf> Or get rid of macros entirely?
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21:23:57 <Mysteryhunter> thischannel is logged
21:24:01 <Mysteryhunter> http://esolangs.org/logs/stalker.html
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21:28:08 <int-e> . o O ( Amazing insight. )
21:28:23 <imode> big shocker that one.
21:28:35 <arseniiv> int-e: not “prognosize”?
21:28:53 <int-e> arseniiv: I actually looked it up.
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21:30:11 <int-e> Sometuimes the verb is derived from the noun and not the other way around, and this is one such case.
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21:31:02 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I believe you though I wanted to write “prognosize” still, as it came to my mind first :D
21:31:20 <arseniiv> > C16 from Medieval Latin prognōsticāre “to predict” => eh
21:31:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:39: error: lexical error at character 't'
21:31:43 <arseniiv> oh sorry poor lambdabot I always forget about that
21:32:12 <arseniiv> @botsnack -- does that affect anything and are comments parsed in here?
21:32:12 <lambdabot> :)
21:32:18 <int-e> arseniiv: A good indicator is that if there was a two or three syllable synonym for "predict", we'd see it more often. :)
21:32:33 <arseniiv> int-e: mmmaybe
21:33:21 <arseniiv> the joke is, “predict” didn’t come to my mind that time :′( for an obscure reason
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21:37:44 <arseniiv> I worry a bit that my oral speech may be degrading. Either I just speak not as much as needed, or it’s interference of much reading in English, or me noting it eagerly when it’s not actually that bad, especially when I sleep not enough before that day, or it’s really first signs of something
21:38:44 <arseniiv> compared to that, writing (at least not in English, where I still often need a dictionary to help with something) seems more or less normal
21:39:10 <arseniiv> my syntax is as heavy-handed as always, at least. No more, no less
21:39:21 <arseniiv> in this mode too
21:40:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I told you what I thought of it, at least. Well, part of it. You might add more macros if it can make the compiled program smaller and more efficient by doing so.
21:40:59 <shachaf> zzo38: I could stop using «» and use '' instead, but I'm only targeting systems that use UTF-8.
21:42:16 <shachaf> The macros are supposed to make it more convenient, not more efficient.
21:46:49 <zzo38> Yes, the macros should make it more convenient, but should not make it too much less efficient by doing so.
21:52:30 <int-e> arseniiv: heavy-handed, hmm. "It is with a heavy hand that I type these words."
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21:53:02 <arseniiv_> haha I’m an impostor
21:53:45 <int-e> very droll
21:54:40 <arseniiv_> of course the reality is not that interesting, I just forgot to rename myself before restarting the router
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21:55:41 <arseniiv> NOW I’m an impostor
21:56:22 <int-e> not anymore, now you're identified to services.
21:56:58 <arseniiv> I’m a proper impostor with a proper documentation, duh
21:57:13 <arseniiv> it wouldn’t suit me otherwise!
21:57:24 <int-e> imposterous
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21:59:18 <fizzie> . o O (What sort of things are postposterous things?)
21:59:20 <arseniiv> ah, that word I remember still
22:07:10 <arseniiv> tried to find that article about arithmetic in Q[…][…]… and as it was prognosticated, I hadn’t find it. There are just too many items and any sensible keyword resulted in failure. At least I’m not committed to use this arithmetic anyway, but it’d be nice to re-read about it, sigh
22:19:14 <int-e> arseniiv: those ... are mysterious
22:20:50 <arseniiv> int-e: ..?
22:21:05 <int-e> Q[...][...]...
22:21:10 <arseniiv> aaah
22:21:35 * int-e is not fluent in Unicode.
22:21:39 <arseniiv> I thought those … were a textual ellipsis
22:21:50 <int-e> Sure, but what do they stand for?
22:21:55 <arseniiv> ah, Unicode
22:22:08 <int-e> Q[pi][sqrt(3)][z]
22:22:39 <int-e> There are numerous things you could put there.
22:22:50 <int-e> Possibly some quotients as well.
22:24:10 <arseniiv> ah, yes, something like that, but in this case all that mess denotes a field defined inductively: either that (ordered) field is Q or it is F[√s] for F being that kind of field, s ∈ F, is positive and not a square
22:24:44 <int-e> So... some specific algebraic numbers.
22:24:47 <arseniiv> so we just add some square roots in succession
22:24:48 <arseniiv> yeah
22:24:53 <arseniiv> and real ones
22:25:14 <arseniiv> at that
22:25:29 <int-e> Oh so s > 0?
22:25:47 <arseniiv> yeah, s > 0 and not a square, I was to brief
22:25:57 <arseniiv> too
22:26:24 <arseniiv> now I’m making famous native-speaker typos, danb
22:26:27 <arseniiv> damn*
22:26:30 <int-e> Hmm, is that exciting in anyway... I guess the inverses need work.
22:27:29 <arseniiv> finding inverses is not hard, it’s just like in C or like what is done to 1/(5 + 7√3) to get rid of the radical in the denominator
22:27:35 <int-e> And if you have many square roots, the question of FFT-like speedups arises as well, hrm. Not a clue :)
22:27:39 <arseniiv> but finding square roots…
22:28:16 <int-e> Ah you want to close Q under field operations and sqrt().
22:28:27 <int-e> (of non-negative numbers.)
22:28:43 <int-e> Is this for geometry?
22:29:06 <arseniiv> also this arithmetic is very space-inefficient, so one needs to find representations in Q[…]… with as few brackets as possible, for each new result. Or it would result in a gigabytes of numbers
22:29:19 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah
22:29:47 <arseniiv> it’s one of the ways to make tesselation-y computations work for sure
22:29:55 <arseniiv> but I dislike this way
22:30:52 <arseniiv> I’ll push my luck with usual floating point, trying to come up with a way to recalculate point coordinates to make them more accurate each time that’s relevant
22:32:54 <arseniiv> as a conected tesselation chunk is rigid, increasing accuracy almost up to floating-point precision should be possible
22:33:13 <arseniiv> I presume in a way like those summation algorithms
22:34:01 <arseniiv> and, as that idea needs some sleeping on, bye
22:34:30 <int-e> . z Z ( good night )
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23:10:55 <imode> ah, the weekend is upon us.
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23:30:45 <imode> I've resolved to do a couple of things. one: build a minimum viable cycle rewriting system in C. two: build a compiler that compiles pseudo-assembly language into cycle rewriting rules. three: extend the C system to support built-in rules for I/O.
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2020-06-06
00:02:17 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
00:02:27 <Antebrationist> Hello again.
00:03:45 <Antebrationist> Does anybody know of a Python single-function brainfuck interpreter; Namely, one which takes a string of "+-<>[]" as input, assumes all inputs using , to be 0 and outputs, as a string, the STDOUT of the program?
00:07:34 <shachaf> Taneb: I like the last eight octets of your IPv6 address.
00:07:44 <shachaf> Very oerjany. Maybe intentionally?
00:08:35 <shachaf> Hmm, that's a human who hasn't been around in a bit.
00:09:05 <shachaf> Several months, actually, hm.
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02:23:06 <tswett[m]> oerjan hasn't been?
02:39:41 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73300&oldid=62279 * Voltage2007 * (+42)
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05:02:12 <zzo38> I found a bug in Ghostscript with printobject, where sometimes it writes array elements in the wrong order.
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05:17:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:AC01010]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73301 * TwilightSparkle * (+196) Created page with "== Welcome, I guess == Welcome! Please sign your comments with four tildes: <pre>~~~~</pre>. ~~~~"
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06:12:54 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73302&oldid=72390 * TwilightSparkle * (+103) /* Easy */
06:22:23 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73303&oldid=68011 * TwilightSparkle * (+139) /* Commands and syntax */
06:23:58 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73304&oldid=73303 * TwilightSparkle * (+22) /* Undocumented instruction */
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09:06:02 <Taneb> shachaf: I don't know what you mean
09:18:13 <shachaf> Taneb: :aaaa:0:aaaa:0
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09:53:17 <b_jonas> fungot, what are the prime factors of 1536?
09:53:51 <fungot> b_jonas: ( translate ( german english) " fnord" meant " macros", but " they don't agree on events being a general solution where you gave the dictionary inside the function
09:55:42 <myname> 2 is definitely in there
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10:42:38 <fizzie> `factor 1536
10:42:39 <HackEso> 1536: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3
10:42:46 <fizzie> Yes, you could say that.
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11:55:20 <fizzie> @pl \d w -> f d >> t d w
11:55:20 <lambdabot> ap ((.) . (>>) . f) t
11:55:28 <fizzie> Hm, I don't think that's an improvement.
11:56:02 <fizzie> (Also it should've been >>= but that hardly matters.)
11:59:46 <olsner> @pl \d w -> f d >>= t d w
11:59:47 <lambdabot> ap ((.) . (>>=) . f) t
11:59:57 <olsner> indeed it didn't
12:13:04 <fizzie> Ugh. I wanted to do something XInput-related in my XMonad configuration, but the XMonad handleEventHook is in terms of Graphics.X11.Xlib.Extras.Event, which is a "processed" form of the raw XEvent and doesn't have support for extensions. It will just get turned into the fallback "AnyEvent", and all the interesting bits are discarded.
12:17:58 <shachaf> whoa, fizzie is doing Haskell?
12:18:14 <shachaf> I'm using i3 nowadays and it works pretty well. What a silly language Haskell is.
12:18:28 <fizzie> I strictly only ever touch it when fiddling with XMonad.
12:21:06 <fizzie> Now that I'm working from home, there's a lot more swapping of monitors for the work laptop, so I wrote a moderately clever and flexible AutoRandr module, which went pretty well. It talks to Xrandr directly, parses EDID data, and tries to find a matching configuration.
12:22:03 <fizzie> Inspired by that, I was now looking at also hooking in keyboard layout configuramation when XInput events happen, but that seems a little nastier. I may just fall back to the tiny "inputplug" program instead of integrating it to the window manager.
12:23:33 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2opR -- see, doesn't that look quite acceptable?
12:24:38 <fizzie> (Okay, I did cheat a little in that I do the reconfiguring through the xrandr CLI, rather than talking to the extension directly. I promise there was a good reason for that, I just forgot what it was.)
12:24:58 <shachaf> I have a program that monitors keyboard layout change events and a bunch of other things: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/statustext.c
12:25:40 <shachaf> (It just prints text to the status bar, though.)
12:26:02 <shachaf> As of recently I got wireless headphones, and it doesn't detect when I turn them on or off, and keeps displaying the volume for the old device. I don't think the ALSA exposes the thing I want, so I might have to switch to pulseaudio.
12:26:27 <shachaf> But having written a small amount of pulseaudio code I'm really not looking forward to that.
12:26:56 <fizzie> I'm back to pulseaudio, after going through OSS -> ALSA -> pulseaudio -> ALSA -> pulseaudio so far.
12:27:32 <shachaf> That randrConfig looks quite acceptable, though there's no reason for it to be in the window manager, is there?
12:28:02 <fizzie> Not really, other than a perverse joy of nudging XMonad closer and closer to a DE.
12:28:38 <shachaf> I meant switching to the pulseaudio API for getting volume information.
12:28:43 <shachaf> I'm already using pulseaudio.
12:29:28 <fizzie> Oh, I see. Well, yeah. My volume control XMonad keybindings are now more or less defunct, because they were written for the ALSA API and would probably do the wrong thing.
12:29:42 <fizzie> (But there's a physical volume knob in the external USB DAC, which is the only audio output device I use, so it's kind of moot.)
12:30:09 <shachaf> I wrote a pulseaudio program to set the volume. It was a real maze of callbacks.
12:30:24 <shachaf> And that's just for the simplest task.
12:32:49 <shachaf> Man, I jammed up my C argument parser so you can specify things explicitly instead of parsing description strings.
12:32:57 <shachaf> This is more verbose but probably better?
12:34:05 <fizzie> Sounds plausible.
12:35:47 <shachaf> Now you specify arguments like MOP_OPT(&mop, .name = "verbose", .short_name = 'v', .help = "verbose mode") { printf("increasing verbosity\n"); }
12:36:28 <esowiki> [[1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73305&oldid=73288 * Hakerh400 * (+34) Fix typo and add interpreter
12:36:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: is there a way to give multiple alternative spellings/abbreviations for the long name? because I sort of think that long options are hard to design well without that.
12:36:41 <b_jonas> also that in most programs it's easier to just stick to short options
12:36:53 <shachaf> Hmm, not currently.
12:37:13 <fizzie> Do you have a `--helpfull` flag that's actually less helpful than `--help`?
12:37:18 <shachaf> I could add that but I'm unlikely to use it.
12:37:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: how do you specify whether the option has an argument in that?
12:37:28 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73306&oldid=73156 * Hakerh400 * (+10)
12:37:34 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm not planning to go the way of gflags.
12:37:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: Currently with .wants_optarg = true
12:38:07 <shachaf> See https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
12:38:08 <b_jonas> fungot: no, that probably uses the weird syntax --help --verbose
12:38:09 <fungot> b_jonas: if you make a file upload progress bar with rails and ajax things won't work, i mainly just idle on my other computer has 32 megs of ram
12:38:16 <b_jonas> argh
12:38:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: ^^
12:38:46 <fizzie> fungot: Where have you been hiding another computer in?
12:38:46 <fungot> fizzie: uh. openoffice help neglects to list one part of the course, and one mutex ( for committing optimistic concurrency logs)
12:38:56 <fizzie> So evasive.
12:39:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: I mean, except in some programs that really have a lot of options, the point of long options is just that it may be easier to remember/guess the option name, but that works well only if the program accepts multiple alternatives
12:39:44 <shachaf> No, the point of long options is that it's easier to read an invocation of a command that uses them.
12:39:54 <b_jonas> hmm ok
12:40:08 <fizzie> Now I'm wondering if there are many programs that will accept any unique abbreviation of an argument.
12:40:17 <shachaf> I mean, maybe the thing you said is also the point, but I don't really want people to be guessing options.
12:40:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: sadly yes
12:40:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: and that can cause backward compatibility failure when a later version adds an option
12:40:41 <shachaf> There are some option parsing libraries that will take any unambiguous prefix of a long option. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
12:40:47 <shachaf> For the reason b_jonas said.
12:41:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: gnu's getopt_long actually does that by default
12:41:20 <shachaf> whoa, so it does!
12:41:24 <shachaf> I somehow didn't know that.
12:41:38 <b_jonas> silently
12:41:40 <shachaf> `` /bin/ls --versi
12:41:41 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:41:48 <fizzie> Heh, I wasn't expecting it to be *that* common.
12:41:52 <b_jonas> is that version sort?
12:42:00 <b_jonas> like ls -v ?
12:42:14 <fizzie> `` /bin/ls --ve
12:42:15 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:42:44 <fizzie> `` /bin/ls --r
12:42:45 <HackEso> ​/bin/ls: option '--r' is ambiguous; possibilities: '--reverse' '--recursive' \ Try '/bin/ls --help' for more information.
12:42:47 <shachaf> I don't know why /bin/ls, given that ls isn't a shell builtin.
12:42:55 <fizzie> Yeah, I just copied it from you.
12:43:01 <b_jonas> ``` type ls
12:43:01 <shachaf> I mean I don't know why I did it.
12:43:02 <HackEso> ls is /hackenv/bin/ls
12:43:03 <b_jonas> ^ that's why
12:43:05 <b_jonas> also with sed
12:43:13 <shachaf> Oh, that's a good point!
12:43:15 <b_jonas> and I keep writing /bin/cat because I'm afraid that someone will override that too
12:43:30 <fizzie> `` ls --ve
12:43:31 <HackEso> ls (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
12:43:34 <b_jonas> esolang has a lot of incompatible shadowed commands, they're annoying, I hate them
12:43:44 <b_jonas> ``` /bin/w
12:43:45 <HackEso> bash: /bin/w: No such file or directory
12:43:50 <b_jonas> ``` /usr/bin/w
12:43:50 <fizzie> I don't know if they're *that* incompatible.
12:43:51 <HackEso> ​ 12:43:50 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
12:43:59 <fizzie> Well, okay, that one definitely is.
12:44:11 <b_jonas> that's not the worst one
12:44:38 <shachaf> `5 /usr/bin/w
12:44:42 <HackEso> 1/2: 12:44:39 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT \ 12:44:39 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT \ 12:44:39 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT \ 12:44:39 up 0 min, 0 users, load avera
12:45:43 <fizzie> How wise.
12:45:55 <fizzie> `? wise
12:45:56 <HackEso> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
12:46:12 <shachaf> If Unix commands didn't want to be shadowed, they shouldn't have occupied such prime namespace.
12:46:17 <b_jonas> besides ls and sed, cc is also one that annoys me
12:46:19 <shachaf> Why is that in wisdom?
12:46:23 <b_jonas> yes, w is excusable
12:46:31 <shachaf> I kind of want to delete it but I feel like maybe I tried that before and someone reverted it.
12:46:43 <shachaf> I added it originally.
12:47:01 <shachaf> `` type cc
12:47:02 <HackEso> cc is /hackenv/bin/cc
12:47:08 <shachaf> `cbt cc
12:47:08 <fizzie> It does make me smile, which from the KonMari perspective suggests it should stay there?
12:47:09 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\n/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
12:47:33 <b_jonas> admittedly I installed /hackenv/bin/hello which also shadows a gnu utility incompatibly
12:47:48 <shachaf> whoa, what's bin/cc about? Bizarro mode 12,000.
12:48:02 <b_jonas> `whatis cc
12:48:07 <HackEso> cc(1hackeso) - no description
12:48:31 <fizzie> It's like a very poor man's copy of ##c's `,cc`, I think.
12:48:51 <shachaf> Should I actually do help autogeneration or is it not worth the trouble?
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12:50:44 <b_jonas> I can understand ones like man and wget
12:50:48 <b_jonas> oh yeah, paste is another offender
12:50:50 <b_jonas> `type -a paste
12:50:51 <HackEso> type? No such file or directory
12:50:54 <b_jonas> ``` type -a paste
12:50:55 <HackEso> paste is /hackenv/bin/paste \ paste is /usr/bin/paste
12:50:57 <b_jonas> ^ no relations to each other
12:51:10 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73307&oldid=65707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
12:51:17 <b_jonas> `whatis nooodl:
12:51:18 <HackEso> nooodl:(1hackeso) - noooooo description
12:51:45 <b_jonas> have I sleepadded that, or has someone else been using addwhatis?
12:55:35 <b_jonas> `run hg cat -r 11847 /hackenv/share/whatis | grep -i ooo # I sleepadded that
12:55:36 <HackEso> nooodl:(1hackeso) - noooooo description \ rnooodl(1hackeso) - no description
12:55:41 <b_jonas> I've no idea what that actually does
12:56:06 <int-e> `nooodl nooodl
12:56:07 <HackEso> nooodl? No such file or directory
12:56:28 <b_jonas> int-e: it has a colon
12:56:38 <fizzie> `` echo nooodl | rnooodl
12:56:39 <HackEso> nooooodl
12:56:42 <fizzie> `` echo nooodl | rnooodl
12:56:43 <HackEso> noooooooodl
12:56:50 <b_jonas> `nooodl: hello
12:56:51 <HackEso> hello
12:57:02 <b_jonas> `run hello | nooodl:
12:57:03 <HackEso> No output.
12:57:06 <b_jonas> `run hello
12:57:07 <HackEso> hello, world
12:57:12 <b_jonas> ``` type -a nooodl:
12:57:13 <HackEso> noooooooodl: is /hackenv/bin/nooooodl:
12:57:22 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/nooodl:
12:57:23 <HackEso> ​ELF............>.....(......@....... ..........@.8..@.........@.......@.......@.......h......h..................................................................................................................... ....... ....... ......9......9.....................`.......`.......`..................................................P.....................................................
12:57:28 <fizzie> The colon version seems to be not particularly useful.
12:57:34 <int-e> `` echo noodle | rnooodl
12:57:36 <HackEso> noodle
12:57:38 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73308&oldid=68858 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29) /* References */ rm redtemplate
12:57:46 <fizzie> You need at least three o's to trigger that.
12:57:47 <int-e> Does it need three o's to trigger?
12:57:48 <shachaf> `` ls -l /hackenv/bin/nooodl:
12:57:49 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 9 Jul 8 2017 /hackenv/bin/noooodl: -> /bin/echo
12:58:04 <b_jonas> `nooodl: hellooo wooorld nooodl
12:58:07 <HackEso> hellooo wooorld nooodl
12:58:15 <int-e> I thought it was two, so that a simple noodle would already be enlarged.
12:58:28 <shachaf> `dobg rnooodl
12:58:30 <HackEso> 8518:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 <shachäf> sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016
12:58:31 <b_jonas> it's three, luckily. and I hate it even this way.
12:58:54 <b_jonas> I hate it because it makes ``` not output partial lines after a timeout
12:58:57 <fizzie> The colon thing is kind of odd. I guess it does "integrate" with the rnooodl call in `` though.
12:59:01 <b_jonas> that could be fixed by a better program, but ouch
12:59:12 <shachaf> Remember when rnooodl would take any letter rather than just os? That was so good.
12:59:36 <fizzie> `` nooodl: This is a thing that should get rnooodlified. Maybe best to add another nooodle to be sure.
12:59:37 <HackEso> This is a thing that should get rnooooooooodlified. Maybe best to add another nooodle to be sure.
12:59:46 <b_jonas> we should just ln -s /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/rnooodl
13:00:13 <shachaf> `dobg nooodl:
13:00:20 <HackEso> 2787:2013-04-23 <noood̈l> ln -s /bin/echo bin/nooodl:
13:00:26 <shachaf> Ah. Well then.
13:01:35 <fizzie> I support getting rid of that one, and also rnoooodl in general if you feel like it, but I'm also tolerant enough of nonsense to not mind it's there.
13:02:27 <int-e> as long as it doesn't touch multiocular o's.
13:02:40 <fizzie> Also annoying, I found what I think is likely to be a copy of the Minecraft world some #esoteric people also contributed to, but couldn't immediately figure out how to convert it to something that could be viewed (it's pretty old), and now I've lost it *again*.
13:03:10 <fizzie> I distinctly remember thinking "well, this is not the optimal place to put this, it might get lost, but I'll get back to this the next day so it's probably fine".
13:03:27 <shachaf> Uh oh.
13:04:16 <b_jonas> what I dislike is that `` and ``` uses rnooodl
13:04:21 <b_jonas> I'd be fine with `w using it
13:04:31 <esowiki> [[Lazy expander]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73309&oldid=69877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe
13:04:48 <esowiki> [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73310&oldid=66600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:00 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73311&oldid=67947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:05 <int-e> . o O ( b_jonas is not a pastafarian )
13:05:28 <esowiki> [[Happy Fantasy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73312&oldid=71415 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:44 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73313&oldid=71446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:05:46 <shachaf> Oh man, I gotta get back to my SAT solver.
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13:06:08 <shachaf> This is Luby restarts. Do you like this?
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13:07:40 <shachaf> Uh oh.
13:07:42 <shachaf> OK.
13:08:33 <b_jonas> I should at least rewrite rnooodl to make it able to output anything immediately, except in the one case where the input ends in "noood" or "Noood" in which case it should use a small timeout to wait for a possible "l"
13:08:52 <b_jonas> and even in that case the output would be missing only the trailing "d"
13:09:04 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73314&oldid=72961 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Program structure */ specify
13:09:08 <shachaf> `cbt rnooodl
13:09:09 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
13:09:29 <int-e> b_jonas: is that even possible? Isn't the bigger problem that a lot of programs start buffering when writing to a pipe?
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13:09:43 <int-e> `` stty
13:09:44 <HackEso> stty: 'standard input': Inappropriate ioctl for device
13:09:50 <int-e> `stty
13:09:51 <HackEso> stty: 'standard input': Inappropriate ioctl for device
13:10:00 <int-e> Maybe it's not an issue for HackEso.
13:10:06 <b_jonas> int-e: that certainly happens, yes, but I often run commands that I write with ``` and in those I can flush the output explicitly
13:11:21 <b_jonas> ``
13:11:22 <HackEso> 436) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
13:11:29 <b_jonas> whoa, I didn't know `` with no args did that
13:12:01 <fizzie> "To many, high-end Ethernet cables are still a controversial subject. While plenty of experiments have proven to me that their influence is not imaginary, it sure is annoying that, so far, we have not been able to come up with a proper scientific explanation for why these cables can alter the sound."
13:12:28 <fizzie> (In a review for a 750€ Ethernet cable.)
13:13:21 <int-e> Yeah it's pipes anyway.
13:13:25 <fizzie> "There are some theories, though, and the one I personally think is plausible is that it is not the music stream itself that is affected but rather the influence of noise that travels along and subsequently influences circuits downstream."
13:13:44 <int-e> `stat /proc/self/1
13:13:45 <HackEso> stat: cannot stat '/proc/self/1': No such file or directory
13:13:46 <fizzie> This is starting to sound like water memory.
13:13:50 <int-e> `stat /proc/self/fd/1
13:13:51 <HackEso> ​ File: /proc/self/fd/1 -> pipe:[221] \ Size: 64 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 symbolic link \ Device: 4h/4dInode: 224 Links: 1 \ Access: (0300/l-wx------) Uid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \ Modify: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \ Change: 2020-06-06 13:13:50.615096204 +0000 \ Birth: -
13:14:34 <b_jonas> maybe the people who buy expensive Ethernet cables also buy more expensive sound equipment?
13:14:39 <fizzie> There's an intentional pipe in there.
13:15:26 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah, audiophilantry is highly esoteric.
13:15:44 <int-e> (audiophily is the proper word)
13:16:11 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/init.c#L199
13:16:12 <int-e> audophilia may be better
13:16:27 <fizzie> I don't quite remember all the rationale.
13:17:03 <fizzie> I think the thinking was, some programs might switch to output formats more friendly for IRC when piped.
13:17:30 <fizzie> But it's a controversial topic.
13:18:05 <int-e> Hmm, plausible enough reason.
13:18:38 <int-e> I don't mind, I just didn't know (or quite possibly, forgot because it hardly ever matters).
13:18:44 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73315&oldid=73308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe cross-namespace link
13:24:34 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73316&oldid=71933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Addition */
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14:07:25 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73317&oldid=73302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23)
14:08:49 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73318&oldid=73300 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) unpipe cross-namespace link +Cats
14:09:56 <esowiki> [[TM operator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73319&oldid=45594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) cat
14:41:26 <esowiki> [[TWiRQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73320&oldid=16260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21)
14:42:40 <esowiki> [[TWiRQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73321&oldid=73320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) deadlang
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15:42:47 <int-e> rain1: Get off my lawn! (It just started raining outside ;-) (And actually there's pavement there but who wants to be picky.))
15:43:25 <rain1> lol
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17:35:09 <b_jonas> let me try to rephrase. fungot, what are the *primal* factors of 1536 ?
17:35:31 <fungot> b_jonas: it's like deja vu all over again. if you do randomization, then why bother making this at all
17:35:38 <zzo38> I expect if Ethernet cables alter the sound, it might be due to interference which causes some data to get lost. So, it might have to do with the codec.
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17:36:11 <zzo38> But I don't know if that is true or not, anyways.
17:36:25 <b_jonas> or with a driver on Win32
17:37:49 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't think the driver on Win32 has to do with the physical cable.
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17:55:38 <zzo38> I am trying to fix a bug in Ghostscript, having to do with the printobject and writeobject operators.
18:00:21 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Also annoying, I found what I think is likely to be a copy of the Minecraft world some #esoteric people also contributed to, but couldn't immediately figure out how to convert it to something that could be viewed (it's pretty old), and now I've lost it *again*. => oh
18:00:32 <arseniiv> what version was it approximately if you remember?
18:01:35 <zzo38> I posted the bug report, but have gotten no reply yet; I am trying to see if I can fix it by myself, although since I have not signed the Artifex contribution agreement, I cannot contribute patches. They may eventually fix it, but before then, anyone who uses it must apply the patches by themself. The printobject and writeobject operators are mostly implemented in PostScript, so it can be patched without needing to recompile Ghostscrip
18:05:03 <fizzie> arseniiv: I imagine somewhere around 1.1.
18:08:14 <fizzie> I found something that might be it, and it's timestamped Oct 12 2011, so I guess that's actually still beta 1.9 then.
18:11:52 <fizzie> The files are region/r.X.Y.mcr, which apparently definitely dates it to >= beta 1.3, < 1.2.1.
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18:30:10 <fizzie> "This world was last played in vesrion unknown; you are on version 1.15.2." Well, at least it's going to attempt to convert it.
18:31:58 <arseniiv> <fizzie> I found something that might be it, and it's timestamped Oct 12 2011, so I guess that's actually still beta 1.9 then. => wow. I think I played only since 1.3 or something
18:32:19 <fizzie> Well, it loaded something.
18:32:24 <fizzie> I don't recognize the place though.
18:33:08 <arseniiv> I’d think there would be something flat and redstony
18:33:40 <fizzie> The game also keeps on bugging out a little, every few seconds it changes my view 90 degrees.
18:34:30 <arseniiv> :o
18:35:11 <fizzie> Actually it only happens if I move the mouse around. Weird.
18:35:53 <fizzie> I can see that triangular staircase that goes all the way to the top of the sky, which I *think* was part of the shared thing.
18:36:12 <fizzie> There wasn't anything particularly #esoteric about this, by the way, it was mostly just random chatting and silliness.
18:36:26 <arseniiv> hehe
18:37:04 <fizzie> There's also the incomplete zeppelin that I kinda-sorta remember.
18:37:54 <fizzie> (It'd be easier to navigate if I could look around without aiming directly upwards or downwards every few seconds.)
18:38:24 <arseniiv> does reloading it help?
18:38:31 <fizzie> Well, I found a sign saying "<- civilization", I guess that's promising.
18:40:14 <fizzie> Also another street sign saying "Gregor's water castle", so this was *definitely* the #esoteric-associated one.
18:40:26 <arseniiv> . o O ( and there is a portal right into Sid Meier’s Civilization )
18:45:20 <fizzie> Well, it has the same bug in a fresh newly created world, so I guess that's "fine".
18:46:59 <fizzie> https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-144107 maybe.
18:48:36 <fizzie> The Rwa Input -> OFF workaround seems to have worked.
18:58:18 <fizzie> Heh, the nether portal's translucent sheets are 90 degrees off. As in, if the portal frame is oriented like ----, the translucent sheets are ||. Looks pretty silly.
18:58:47 <fizzie> Also, the ladders no longer work.
18:59:08 <fizzie> We used to have alternating ladder/torch/ladder/torch and that was good enough for climbing, but apparently no longer.
18:59:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: play a human or elf character instead of a goblin or dwarf or halfling
18:59:53 <b_jonas> then you can reach the ladder
19:03:01 <fizzie> I just respawned.
19:03:18 <fizzie> But I've found the Libmarine Subrary, and the Subree, and Vorpal's place.
19:03:36 <fizzie> And some fish, which I'm pretty sure didn't exist back then.
19:03:53 <fizzie> And some minecart stuff that almost certainly no longer works.
19:04:30 <int-e> . o O ( But where's the Tomb of the Jabberwacky? )
19:04:40 <arseniiv> <fizzie> We used to have alternating ladder/torch/ladder/torch and that was good enough for climbing, but apparently no longer. => economical :D
19:05:23 <zzo38> I have a list such as [1 2 [[3] [4] [[5] [6]] [7]] 8 [9] 10 [[11]] [12 13]] and need to convert to binary format such that each element of the list is stored consecutively; numbers store themself, while if the element is another list, it consists of a pointer to the beginning of the sublist and the length of the sublist (numbers and sublist pointers have the same length).
19:05:45 <zzo38> Furthermore, it should be streamed, so that you do not have to go back and patch the data with the pointers.
19:05:53 <zzo38> Do you know how to do this properly?
19:06:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you distinguish between a number and a list then?
19:06:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: The data type is also stored in each element. (There is the type, length, and value; the "length" field is not used for numbers.)
19:07:02 <zzo38> Actually, there is a description of the format here: http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format
19:07:08 <b_jonas> ah
19:08:06 <zzo38> Ghostscript has an implementation; its algorithm uses streaming like I mentioned, but enters incorrect pointers when you write nested arrays like my example.
19:09:33 <b_jonas> j-bot: 1
19:09:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1
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19:13:01 <zzo38> Do you understand this?
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19:13:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but I don't want to think of how to sovle it now
19:14:00 <zzo38> The file called Resource/Init/gs_btokn.ps contains the implementation that Ghostscript uses (except the implementation of .bosobject which is written in C)
19:24:37 <fizzie> Beta 1.5: "The player can no longer climb ladders spaced every other block."
19:24:50 <fizzie> Looks like it was older than I thought.
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20:03:01 <esowiki> [[TFNP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73322 * Hakerh400 * (+6462) TFNP
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20:06:03 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73323 * Hakerh400 * (+6462) TFNP
20:06:23 <esowiki> [[TFNP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73324&oldid=73322 * Hakerh400 * (-6462) Blanked the page
20:07:26 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73325&oldid=73306 * Hakerh400 * (+37) /* Articles */ TFNP
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20:19:59 <arseniiv> suppose we know z0, w0, z1 = r z0 + s, w1 = r w1 + s all complex, and we want to find r, s more or less accurately using floating point. I take r = (z1 − w1) / (z0 − w0), this seems to be the only way, but with s, it seems s = ((z1 + w1) − r (z0 + w0)) / 2 should be a tad more accurate than z1 − r z0 (or w1 − r w0). Is that founded?
20:21:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73326&oldid=73323 * Hakerh400 * (-22) Fix typos
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20:51:43 <fizzie> The fungot outage is due to http://ix.io/2orY which doesn't sound great.
20:53:54 <esowiki> [[Treeng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73327&oldid=69371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9)
21:14:03 <imode> that ain't good.
21:14:23 <imode> hard drive failure looks like.
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21:20:13 <zzo38> I thought of one idea (which I will try a bit later), which is to make a temporary dictionary to record the offset of each array while they are being counted, or to store the offset in the operand stack together with the arrays. However, then it might fail if there are multiple references to the same array, unless I compensate for that too, by checking if the offset has already been recorded, and to skip if it has already been written.
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21:29:20 <zzo38> (I don't know if it will work anyways; I have not tried it.)
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22:26:55 <fizzie> "[sde] 0 4096-byte logical blocks: (0 B/0 B)"
22:27:00 <fizzie> That's a very small drive.
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22:35:33 <imode> ruh roh
22:37:16 <fizzie> At least once I'd like to be retiring a hard drive in a way that I could just run scrub on it, instead of my usual half-assed data recovery mitigations (disassemble the drive, break the circuit board, use a metal file to scrub the platters, throw them away one by one in separate garbage bags).
22:45:40 <int-e> that's no fun
22:46:44 <zzo38> The method I described using the temporary dictionary seems to be working.
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22:50:51 <fizzie> Another odd thing is, I've got in my backup script a thing that checks (via D-Bus) that org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.IdleHint is true, and .IdleSinceHint >= 2 hours. It used to work, but now it's started to consider the system to be never idle, and I have no idea how that value gets derived.
22:55:11 <fizzie> (All I know is it's systemd-logind that's providing that service, somehow.)
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23:14:37 <fizzie> Ohh, I think I figured it out. Amazing.
23:23:29 <int-e> mm
23:34:27 <fizzie> For the record: I have a hotkey for a "terminal with a screen in it", and that somehow had a leftover from a previous login session started from within it. Or something along those lines. At least previously D-Bus introspection was showing a leftover "non-idle" session in "closing" state, now it's gone.
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2020-06-07
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01:51:19 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73328&oldid=71673 * YamTokTpaFa * (+148) /* External Links */
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01:59:22 <Antebrationist> Hello once more.
01:59:36 <Antebrationist> I have a question for all of you geniuses on here.
02:00:04 <Antebrationist> How many brainfuck programs exist which output exactly 50 characters within 256 instructions?
02:00:53 <Antebrationist> I've been searching for them with a quasi brute-force approach, but I've found almost 17k programs that do so.
02:02:23 <Antebrationist> I'll post a sprunge of them when it reaches 20k.
02:17:47 <fizzie> If I understood the question right, and did the math right, there are at least 5327151263612113856592028031288357293732322332076200467262309800346394628426291212883947264300775921573593383740227957048726152605949525557473303467998398691978171103221141995520 boring such programs.
02:17:57 <Antebrationist> Wow.
02:18:09 <Antebrationist> How on earth did you work that out?
02:18:46 <fizzie> That was (256 choose 50 * 4^(256 - 50), the number of 256-character programs that contain 50 .s and an arbitrary sequence of <>+-, and no loops.
02:18:59 <zzo38> Yes, I figured the same thing as a minimum bound.
02:19:00 <fizzie> s/50/50)/
02:19:08 <Antebrationist> Okay, thanks.
02:19:13 <fizzie> But as said, those are all pretty boring programs.
02:19:15 <zzo38> (Except that I haven't actually calculated it, but you have done.)
02:19:37 <Antebrationist> I think there's a lot more though.
02:20:06 <Antebrationist> Let x be a plus or minus symbol, and take programs of the following form.
02:20:07 <zzo38> Yes, there are probably more than that; these ones are only the ones without loops.
02:20:41 <Antebrationist> some chain of x [????]
02:20:59 <Antebrationist> the ???? can be .xxx x.xx xx.x or xxx.
02:21:01 <fizzie> Yes, there are many, many more, it's just much harder to calculate how many.
02:22:32 <Antebrationist> http://sprunge.us/um1R8P has just over 20k of the small ones.
02:23:52 <zzo38> Do you use the printobject and writeobject commands in PostScript (if you use PostScript at all)?
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02:42:21 <Antebrationist> What do you think of my sprunge?
02:46:31 <zzo38> I looked at the first few.
02:46:47 <zzo38> At least, it explain better what you meant, I suppose.
02:47:05 <Antebrationist> Yeah. I'm using infinite tape, unbounded cells.
02:49:51 <Antebrationist> I've also solved the upper bound, but most of these will be invalid.
02:50:25 <Antebrationist> Actually, I know a way to find how many brainfuck programs of length x are valid, so I'll run it for 256.
02:52:11 <Antebrationist> There are 155251809230070893514897948846250255525688601711669661113905203802605095268637688633087840882864647795048773069713107320617158
02:52:32 <Antebrationist> Not sure why it formatted like that.
02:53:17 <Antebrationist> 1552518092300708935148979488462502555256886017116696611139052038026050952686376886330878408828646477950487730697131073206171580044114814391444287275041181139204454976020849905550265285631598444825262999193716468750892846853816057856
02:53:30 <Antebrationist> That's the number.
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04:59:20 <esowiki> [[Hexar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73329&oldid=66266 * Voltage2007 * (-199) categories might be inaccurate
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06:01:31 <zzo38> I played Pokemon card today, and my opponent won by tossing three coins; they needed at least two heads to win, and got two heads. If they had not won, then I would have won because I had the correct cards to win in my hand. So, that was a 50% chance to won or lose. Sometimes, that is what happens; that is how this game is doing.
06:09:31 <myname> if it's a 50% chance, why not just throw one coin?
06:11:06 <zzo38> Because of the effects of the cards. My card had 60 HP, their card had an attack which says 40 + flip a coin for each water energy attached to this card and add 10 for each heads. We each needed to knock out only one opponent's card to win.
06:11:15 <zzo38> That's why we used three coins rather than justo ne.
06:20:22 <zzo38> Someone mentioned that they needed to compare two different PNG files to see if the picture is the same, and that they could use stb_image and write such a program in fifty lines of code. But if I was needing to do that, I would instead use a command such as: cmp <(pngff < file1.png) <(pngff < file2.png) This is an advantage that farbfeld has over Netpbm (that same pictures are always the same data).
06:27:15 <zzo38> For the Pokemon card game, I used Go stones to mark the damage. If someone else is playing Pokemon card, is that what you use?
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06:45:05 <zzo38> (It is probably possible to compare pictures with ImageMagick too.)
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08:36:30 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambooripad_order
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12:52:49 <arseniiv> hi
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13:13:34 <fizzie> Oh, had forgotten fungot doesn't autostart.
13:13:34 <fungot> fizzie: i have no idea how it works
13:13:39 <fizzie> :)
13:16:56 <b_jonas> [ 200*12*0.0254
13:16:56 <j-bot> b_jonas: 60.96
13:37:54 <fizzie> Sounds quite imperial-metric.
13:38:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, 12*0.0254 is a foot
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13:39:14 <fizzie> It did seem like something of that kind was afoot, yes.
13:39:31 <b_jonas> those are the only conversions I know off the top of my head, I only know very bad approximations for the mile, pound, ounces etc
13:39:46 <b_jonas> luckily the internet knows the exact values
13:39:54 <fizzie> 25.4mm for an inch is also the only one I remember.
13:40:11 <b_jonas> oh wait, I think I also know the Fahrenheit to Celsius coefficients
13:40:19 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/f2c # these
13:40:22 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/f2c: No such file or directory
13:40:24 <b_jonas> um
13:40:29 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/ftoc
13:40:30 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ $f=0+$ARGV[0]; printf"%.2f°F = %.2f°C\n",$f,($f-32)*5/9;
13:40:32 <b_jonas> those, yes
13:40:48 <fizzie> I only ever remember the 32 of those.
13:43:08 <b_jonas> the linear factor is simple, it's the same as the aspect ratio of the sides of my home monitor, as opposed to the more narrow aspect ratio of the more common monitors such as the smaller ones I have to use at work
13:53:51 <fizzie> Hmm, I don't think I've heard of... 9:5? 18:10?
13:54:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, 1920x1200 pixels, each pixel is a square
13:54:40 <fizzie> That's 16:10.
13:54:46 <fizzie> Or 8:5.
13:54:49 <b_jonas> oh wait
13:54:54 <b_jonas> ok I confused myself
13:56:13 <fizzie> . o O (Is there a word for "mnemonic" except that it makes you remember something wrong?)
13:57:03 <int-e> It's still a menomonic, isn't it.
13:57:16 <int-e> modulo the typo.
13:57:49 <fizzie> [noun] 1. mnemonic -- (a device (such as a rhyme or acronym) used to aid recall) [adj] 1. mnemonic, mnemotechnic, mnemotechnical -- (of or relating to or involved the practice of aiding the memory; "mnemonic device")
13:57:59 <fizzie> Well, maybe.
13:58:18 <b_jonas> dunno, call it a nmenomic maybe
14:05:33 <fizzie> An anemonic. No, that's already something.
14:12:02 <int-e> I guess the question is whether "mindless" has a nice translation into Greek that starts with mne-... then you could add -ic to that.
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14:19:34 <esowiki> [[Hexar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73330&oldid=73329 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15)
14:25:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Demonthos * New user account
14:34:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73331&oldid=73254 * Demonthos * (+225) /* Introductions */
14:40:14 <esowiki> [[Emblia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73332&oldid=70458 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) rm redlink
14:59:51 <esowiki> [[Countercall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73333&oldid=68889 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) cat /* See also */
15:05:25 <esowiki> [[Skastic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73334&oldid=52982 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) stub + cat
15:07:55 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73335&oldid=54919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Sample programs */ quine
15:08:14 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73336&oldid=73335 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ cat
15:08:36 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73337&oldid=73336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
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16:31:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Misterblue28 * New user account
16:34:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73338&oldid=73331 * Misterblue28 * (+203)
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17:22:43 <esowiki> [[Piquant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73339 * Misterblue28 * (+2398) Created page with "'''Piquant''' is an esoteric programming language, in which all code blocks are treated as conditionally selectable states. == Overview == Piquant has a one-dimensional array..."
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17:23:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73340&oldid=73274 * Misterblue28 * (+14) /* P */
17:39:16 <esowiki> [[Piquant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73341&oldid=73339 * Misterblue28 * (+232) /* Example programs */
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17:42:47 <esowiki> [[Piquant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73342&oldid=73341 * Misterblue28 * (+42) /* Overview */
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18:53:27 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73343&oldid=73326 * Hakerh400 * (+4578)
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19:07:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73344&oldid=73343 * Hakerh400 * (+29)
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19:53:02 <int-e> fungot: is software evil?
19:53:02 <fungot> int-e: to use an interpreter: interpreter program note: program can be the best
19:53:24 <int-e> fungot: I don't like that answer, where do I change it?
19:53:24 <fungot> int-e: what difference does it make
19:56:25 <imode> hahahahahahaha.
19:59:47 <int-e> (Evil software: I accidently clicked the "call" button in the telegram client (linux desktop). So I looked for the option to disable that button. Seems there is none. Not even a confirmation dialog.)
20:03:02 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know what this telegram client is, but good luck
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20:24:47 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73345 * Demonthos * (+2106) Created page with "== the idea == Anti-array is a programming language without arrays or stacks. Instead of either, it allows you to interpret a string as code. This allows you to programmatic..."
20:28:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73346&oldid=73340 * Demonthos * (+17) /* A */
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21:09:12 <arseniiv> int-e: try to make a group, even if just with another person. I looked at a group of three and there’s no call button
21:09:42 <arseniiv> (in a group of nine, too, but I thought maybe there’s just too many people)
21:09:59 <arseniiv> though that’s about a windows client
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21:23:39 <int-e> arseniiv: it just seems so inconsiderate
21:23:49 <arseniiv> yes
21:23:52 <int-e> actively distubring another person should take more than a single click
21:27:50 <arseniiv> I saw people saying sorry when accidentally clicking on the button like this or trying to enter a particular character (in a custom layout) in Skype (ow, IIRC that wasn’t switchable off either). I can totally understand that though luckily no one called me when I was using phone (as I don’t use speakers on a computer for a couple of years). So I didn’t thought about these issues much, but yes
21:30:30 <arseniiv> hm I was lucky not to call anyone myself. Though I was inconsiderate to text several times when the person still slept (not that I wake early, so I thought others are awake at the time I am)
21:30:59 <arseniiv> to text or to send a cat photo
21:31:05 <int-e> Ah the victim took it in good humor. I just don't want a repeat
21:32:20 <arseniiv> indeed
21:36:02 <zzo38> Is there alternative program, or are you able to alter the program, or to tell whoever makes it?
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21:39:19 <int-e> arseniiv: the irritating bit is that there's no microphone connected. hmm.
21:41:11 <arseniiv> int-e: hm also indeed like zzo38 says I heard there are several alternative clients, I just hadn’t browsed them at all myself
21:41:18 <int-e> I guess alsa makes it hard to figure that out
21:53:13 <int-e> arseniiv: there's a ticket... doesn't seem to be a popular request :/ https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/3583
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21:55:15 <int-e> Oh and I was going to look at other clients, but I'm not too hopeful there.
21:55:17 * int-e shrugs.
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21:55:42 <int-e> This is all kind of non-esoteric, but the question whether software is inherently evil did seem appropriate :)
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22:02:58 <arseniiv> int-e: it is, it is, maybe just the tiniest programs aren’t!
22:03:28 <arseniiv> lambda calculus is also evil, but pi calculus is <infinite branching>
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22:26:59 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73347&oldid=73345 * Demonthos * (+101) /* tokens */
22:33:43 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73348&oldid=73347 * Demonthos * (+74) /* tokens */
23:10:01 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73349&oldid=73348 * Demonthos * (+132) /* syntax */
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2020-06-08
00:07:09 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:55:51 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73350&oldid=73349 * Demonthos * (+27) /* tokens */
01:04:32 <imode> pi calculus is black magic and nobody can tell me otherwise.
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01:30:08 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73351&oldid=73350 * Demonthos * (+106) /* examples */
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04:37:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Polybagel * New user account
04:50:27 <esowiki> [[!!!Batch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73352&oldid=62874 * Voltage2007 * (+96) this is a ridiculous amount of tags
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05:28:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73353&oldid=73338 * Polybagel * (+96)
05:28:43 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73354 * Polybagel * (+1686) Created page with "'''Heebolang''' is an esolang created by Sebastian Silvernagel, which is very similar to esolangs like brainfuck, with the sole intention of being as hard to read and as hard..."
05:39:13 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73355&oldid=73354 * Polybagel * (+164)
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06:30:19 <zzo38> Have you used METAFONT to make any fonts?
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07:42:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RubenVerg * New user account
07:43:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73356&oldid=73353 * RubenVerg * (+103) hey! RubenVerg
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08:23:59 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73357&oldid=66451 * Chris Pressey * (+28) add see also
08:24:33 <esowiki> [[HUNTER]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73358&oldid=70810 * Chris Pressey * (+35) add see also
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11:06:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, but I have used metapost for a few simple illustrations
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11:21:39 <int-e> arseniiv: But the tiniest programs lure programmers in.
11:22:02 <int-e> arseniiv: So they're an essential part of the grander conspiracy.
11:24:20 <int-e> Speaking of tiniest programs, I'm amazed that after 22 weeks, https://projecteuler.net/problem=696 still has not reached 100 solvers (74 right now).
11:30:00 <Taneb> int-e: hmm, that looks tractable
11:33:16 <arseniiv> hi!
11:34:20 <arseniiv> int-e: hmm maybe they tricked me so I thought them innocent
11:37:23 <arseniiv> re. mahjong problem: why 1 000 000 007?.. Maybe it has interesting factorization?
11:37:37 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a prime that fits into 32 bits
11:37:44 <arseniiv> ah!
11:37:59 <int-e> In fact it's a prime < 2^30, so you can do addition without worries.
11:39:14 <int-e> (even when using signed 32 bit ints)
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11:41:32 <int-e> (I don't consider this a spoiler; this is done in a lot of P.E. problems, usually with 10^9+7 but I've seen amother nearby prime (maybe 10^9+9) as well..)
11:51:53 <int-e> It *is* a bit harder than it looks... but I thought some other problems I solved were harder.
11:52:14 <int-e> But those numbers disagree. :)
12:04:02 <int-e> Oh and computers, are they symbionts or parasites?
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12:39:30 <arseniiv> int-e: if not paraonts, then symbisites definitely
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13:02:55 <cpressey> I found a very small gap in my Turing-completeness proof for Burro. Symbols on the tape are represented by either 1 or 3, but any tape cell never before encountered will be 0.
13:03:31 <cpressey> I think this is easy to fix. Before simulating a step, check if tape cell <> 1 and <> 3, and if so, write 1.
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13:09:28 <cpressey> i.e. --(--(+>/>)/>)<
13:09:51 <cpressey> Well, no. But like that.
13:49:13 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73359&oldid=70422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) /* See also */
13:50:47 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence
13:51:03 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73360&oldid=73121 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Resources */
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14:14:19 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73361&oldid=73360 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) /* Example: print "Hello, World!" */
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15:25:06 <cpressey> Ugh, another gap. The construction as it's written uses two junk cells per TM tape cell, not one. Because the "if" idiom described in it always treats the cell to the right as the junk cell, and "if" is used on both the TM state and the TM tape cell contents.
15:25:19 <cpressey> Again, shouldn't be super-hard to fix.
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15:44:54 <esowiki> [[Recursion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73362&oldid=69307 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-31)
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16:45:54 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73363&oldid=72642 * Emerald * (+386) Haha template funny
17:01:21 <esowiki> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73364&oldid=72912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) Undo revision 72912 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
17:01:28 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73365&oldid=73363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15)
17:02:07 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73366&oldid=73365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75)
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17:33:16 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73367&oldid=73355 * Polybagel * (-12)
17:34:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73368&oldid=73344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Entity */
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17:42:10 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73369 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+424) Created page with "{{PageWIP}} '''Zfuck''' is a [[Turing-complete]] 3-command variation of [[Smallfuck]] discovered by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory== Like Smallfuck, Zfuck operates..."
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18:04:36 <esowiki> [[Fading Rainbow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73370 * Hakerh400 * (+8803) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
18:04:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73371&oldid=73346 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
18:04:44 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73372&oldid=73325 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Fading Rainbow]]
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18:25:47 <esowiki> [[Null program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73373&oldid=18323 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
18:27:33 <esowiki> [[Swissen Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73374&oldid=67601 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Language Implementation */
18:31:48 <b_jonas> [ 2!18
18:31:49 <j-bot> b_jonas: 153
18:32:03 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73375&oldid=71758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) bold title
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18:48:36 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73376&oldid=73369 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1305)
18:52:17 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73377&oldid=72227 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */ wikipedia link
18:52:50 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73378&oldid=73376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12)
18:53:05 <esowiki> [[Zfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73379&oldid=73378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* See also */
18:53:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73380&oldid=73296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
18:54:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73381&oldid=73371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Z */
18:56:09 <esowiki> [[Y (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73382&oldid=60877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Cats
18:58:04 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73383&oldid=70767 * Hakerh400 * (-137) Add proper label
18:58:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/TFNP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73384&oldid=73368 * Hakerh400 * (-65) Add proper label
19:42:52 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73385&oldid=73351 * Demonthos * (-143) /* the idea */
19:44:18 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73386&oldid=73385 * Demonthos * (+2) /* the idea */
19:49:54 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73387&oldid=73386 * Demonthos * (+160) /* tokens */
19:50:36 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73388&oldid=73387 * Demonthos * (+2) /* examples */
19:52:05 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73389&oldid=73388 * Demonthos * (+123) /* examples */
19:53:35 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73390&oldid=73389 * Demonthos * (-108) /* examples */
20:01:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/UnusedLangLetters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73391&oldid=73244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
20:09:09 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73392&oldid=73390 * Demonthos * (+1) /* examples */
20:09:47 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73393&oldid=73392 * Demonthos * (+7) /* examples */
20:12:45 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73394&oldid=73393 * Demonthos * (+305) /* examples */
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20:57:56 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73395&oldid=73367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92)
20:58:29 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73396&oldid=73395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Github Source Code and Interpreter Download */ cats
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21:11:55 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73397&oldid=65499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Instructions */
21:12:13 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73398&oldid=73397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instructions */
21:14:33 <esowiki> [[Gulf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73399&oldid=46444 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11)
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21:31:30 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73400&oldid=73398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ cats
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21:57:11 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73401&oldid=73394 * Demonthos * (+29) /* examples */
21:58:02 <esowiki> [[Anti-Array]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73402&oldid=73401 * Demonthos * (+0) /* examples */
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23:22:32 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73403&oldid=73396 * Polybagel * (+902)
23:24:07 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73404&oldid=73403 * Polybagel * (+267)
23:24:35 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73405&oldid=73404 * Polybagel * (+0)
23:25:24 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73406&oldid=73405 * Polybagel * (+22)
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23:47:25 <shachaf> `olist 1204
23:47:27 <HackEso> olist 1204: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:50:17 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73407&oldid=73406 * Polybagel * (+1)
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2020-06-09
00:16:56 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73408&oldid=68416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97)
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01:07:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bigyihsuan * New user account
01:10:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73409&oldid=73356 * Bigyihsuan * (+313) introduce bigyihsuan
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03:38:10 <Sgeo> Reading http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2013/10/22/citation-needed/
03:38:24 <Sgeo> (About why most languages start indexing at 0)
03:45:21 <Sgeo> https://python-history.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-python-uses-0-based-indexing.html
03:46:40 <zzo38> I think zero based indexing has many advantages, although sometimes it is useful to specify a range that starts at whatever number you want (which is possible in BASIC, and I think also in Pascal).
03:52:56 <zzo38> (BASIC does allow negative numbers in the range too, which is also useful, I think. But I think that you do not need fractions in array indices.)
03:53:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like Macintosh Pascal?
03:55:06 <zzo38> I don't know; I didn't use Macintosh Pascal; I only used the Pascal on DOS (and even then, only on a computer with Linux, not DOS).
03:56:19 <shachaf> Someone mentioned that it has a feature where nested functions can return out of their enclosing functions.
03:56:22 <shachaf> Do you like this?
03:57:17 <zzo38> Yes, that makes sense (if it can be suitably implemented).
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04:34:23 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73410&oldid=73407 * Polybagel * (+1191)
04:35:36 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73411&oldid=73410 * Polybagel * (+17)
04:40:41 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73412&oldid=73411 * Polybagel * (+2)
04:43:21 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73413&oldid=73412 * Polybagel * (+251)
04:51:28 <pikhq> shachaf: Cute
04:58:47 <zzo38> Some things are missing from the Computer Modern fonts, such as thorn letter, blackboard bold, and a few others
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06:47:21 <zzo38> METAFONT has the feature that you can put if blocks and for loops anywhere, including inside of expressions, such as: (1 for n=1 upto y: *x endfor)
07:08:28 <rain1> nice feature, scheme has that too
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08:03:23 <esowiki> [[Fading Rainbow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73414&oldid=73370 * Ais523 * (+384) this is TC (via compiling 01-2C into it)
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08:41:12 <fizzie> Well, you know, some dialects of C do too.
08:41:14 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%d", ({ int s = 0; for (int i = 1; i <= 5; i++) s += i; s; })); }
08:41:15 <HackEso> 15
08:50:27 <myname> so for _IS_ an expression but cannot work with statements in its condition?
08:51:35 <fizzie> If you mean the C example, that's just a GCC extension. It works anywhere an expression does.
08:51:57 <myname> ok
08:54:13 <fizzie> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Statement-Exprs.html for the record.
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11:16:06 <int-e> So what's this really... a basic block whose final statement is an expression is an expression itself...
11:16:56 <int-e> (will check the link for proper terminology)
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11:41:48 <rain1> https://store.steampowered.com/app/917900/Monster_Logic/
11:41:57 <rain1> Based on esoteric languages Befunge and Trefunge
11:41:59 <rain1> 42 unique levels
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12:10:27 <b_jonas> int-e: no, you have to parenthisize it and then it's an exception, but only in gcc
12:12:39 <shachaf> And clang.
12:19:38 <int-e> b_jonas: ({ triggers my brain differently actually. ({ 1,2,3 }) constructs a 3 element array in LPC (and presumably Pike).
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12:29:52 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73415 * Arseniiv * (+1776) this is bs
12:31:09 <arseniiv_> hi
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12:32:52 <int-e> arseniiv: BFF = brainfuck forever
12:32:57 <arseniiv> at last I’m enacted my revenge and in a not-so-unclassy way. Though I’m not sure at all that is TC
12:33:01 <arseniiv> int-e: rofl
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12:57:32 <b_jonas> int-e: in C the syntax for that is (sometype){constructor elements}
12:57:51 <b_jonas> you can't parenthisize the braces (except in C++, but even then you need a type before it)
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13:01:17 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73416&oldid=73415 * Int-e * (+3) why did I read this
13:02:18 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73417&oldid=34757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) clearer linkback
13:02:32 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73418&oldid=73417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
13:02:57 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73419&oldid=73418 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
13:04:55 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73420&oldid=73416 * Arseniiv * (+830)
13:05:33 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks though the merge conflict made me re-copy some things but that’s okay
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13:08:49 <arseniiv> oh wait I was to edit “Define x mod 0 := x” to “… = …” to not resemble an assignment but I edited something else it seems
13:08:49 <esowiki> [[Carriage/carriage.ml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73421&oldid=34759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52)
13:09:19 <esowiki> [[Carriage/carriage.ml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73422&oldid=73421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11)
13:11:00 <esowiki> [[Carriage/Carriage.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73423&oldid=73419 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) see also
13:11:49 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73424&oldid=73420 * Arseniiv * (+8) no more no more sweet music
13:15:46 <arseniiv> ah, now I see why my changes except pseudocode insertion didn’t apply: I used the wrong tab
13:16:56 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73425&oldid=73424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Pseudocode */ typing
13:21:32 <arseniiv> hey what do you think you are doing
13:23:38 <int-e> what's with the changed return statement
13:24:04 <int-e> The rest looks like it might actually make the code work? I don't know.
13:30:12 <arseniiv> yes though Sequence was there for a reason
13:30:17 <arseniiv> I’ll editing that
13:30:35 <arseniiv> also I found out I ended up with a language which outputs always 0
13:35:34 <catern> shachaf: I guess that neato is in regard to that link I sent you?
13:37:37 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73426&oldid=73425 * Arseniiv * (+56) I used `Sequence` for a reason, and the output should be, well, outputted
13:46:54 <cpressey> "There should be no literals at different positions which denote the same number." -- does that mean 'assert len(instructions) == len(set(instructions))' ?
13:53:30 <cpressey> arseniiv: ^^^ ?
13:54:13 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah that's not TC
13:54:40 <int-e> hmm
13:54:42 <cpressey> (I'm pretty sure it does, I'm mainly wondering if that line should be in the program to emphasise that part of the definition formally)
13:56:16 <int-e> arseniiv: At least as far as I can see. The (mod 0) instruction is just a nop, and we can always reduce x modulo all the lcm of all the other numbers.
13:56:35 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah!
13:58:13 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah it would be good. At first I added assertions about the length and nonnegativity but then scraped it because I forgot one can assert uniqueness as simple as you shown
13:58:16 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73427&oldid=73426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Pseudocode */ Sequence is an import
13:59:16 <arseniiv> I don’t even want to see what they’ve done this time
13:59:40 <arseniiv> I should’ve made that page my user’s subpage
14:00:19 <esowiki> [[? $51=]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73428&oldid=65097 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) rm Example rows
14:01:10 <arseniiv> int-e: seems so. For some reason I haven’t thought a simple lcm would kill it all :D
14:03:22 <esowiki> [[Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73429&oldid=55194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold title
14:04:31 <esowiki> [[~English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73430&oldid=65546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7)
14:04:34 <int-e> arseniiv: Now if (mod 0) actually resulted in an observable test for 0...
14:04:46 <esowiki> [[~English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73431&oldid=73430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat
14:05:01 <int-e> then I don't really know what would happen.
14:05:37 <int-e> Probably still just a single counter Minsky machine.
14:09:52 <arseniiv> yeah I didn’t thought that (mod 0) would end up a complete noop
14:11:57 <int-e> arseniiv: you can still pull a George Lucas and replace the language by something different, I mean better :P
14:11:57 <esowiki> [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73432&oldid=66508 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190)
14:12:33 <arseniiv> int-e: :D
14:12:55 <arseniiv> though I’d wanted it to be of a similar simplicity
14:14:51 <b_jonas> int-e: single-counter Minsky machine? aren't those basically just finite state machines?
14:17:42 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73433&oldid=73427 * Arseniiv * (+117) suggestions from cpressey and int-e and a *critical* edit
14:18:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73434&oldid=73107 * Arseniiv * (+596) /* On additions to BrainSoothe */ new section
14:48:40 <zzo38> I know that in GNU C you can use statements inside of expressions, although in METAFONT it is more like you can even put a for loop where a macro is expected, but unlike C macros you can use values of variables and that stuff.
14:49:54 <zzo38> See the example I had given; something like that (which will result in something like "1*x*x*x*x", and computes x to the power of y) won't work in C.
14:58:23 <esowiki> [[BrainSoothe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73435&oldid=73433 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Commentary */ cats
15:12:30 <esowiki> [[Dilemma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73436&oldid=68266 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) cats
15:13:25 <cpressey> arseniiv: Regarding my silly "16 quantifiers" idea, handling empty sets sensibly is the strongest reason (for me) for having only two quantifiers. It's intuitive to me that forall over an empty set is trivially true and exists over an empty set is trivially false, regardless of the predicate.
15:15:22 <cpressey> You could, for other quantifiers, stipulate the sets must not be empty, but then it's probably simpler to just rephrase those in terms of forall or exists, instead of pretending they're quantifiers themselves.
15:15:29 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, an operation should have a neutral element, that time I added it in the requirements too. But XOR has it, so it’s not trivially excluded…
15:22:28 <arseniiv> though one person said to me that ∀ and ∃ are left and right (or right and left?..) adjoin to substitution or something like that, so they should be special
15:22:47 <arseniiv> s/adjoin/adjoint
15:22:55 <arseniiv> as functors
15:23:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73437&oldid=73434 * OsmineYT * (+157) /* Hello (idk why) */ new section
15:24:32 <arseniiv> (hm hopefully that means endofunctors which decorate a formula with ∀x or ∃x, and map morphisms in some way. I don’t even remember what morphisms there should be between formulas, implications?..)
15:24:46 <b_jonas> cpressey: oh, as for that, the main problem is not empty sets (you can just choose the result for that), it's that (1) most binary operations aren't associative, some don't make sense when you try to fold an infinite sequence of inputs, most either don't make sense or are trivial when you try to fold more than countable infinite sequence of inputs, and most aren't commutative.
15:25:09 <b_jonas> cpressey: so if you want a binary output, basically all you get are the foreach, exists, and the two constant operations
15:28:22 <b_jonas> in general you can generalize a maximum fold to infinitely large inputs as the supremum, or you can take the sum of countably infinite inputs in two ways (limit of sum of prefixes for ordered sequences; the special case sum of absolute convergent unordered sequences, where it's good to know that if every element is nonegative then your sequence is guaranteed to be absolute convergent),
15:29:33 <b_jonas> but then if you try to take the sum of more than countably infinite nonnegative real numbers, you just find that it is always infinite unless all but countably infinite of the terms are zero, so you can't get too much of a meaningful generalization over countable set of inputs.
15:30:01 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> some don't make sense when you try to fold an infinite sequence of inputs => oh, right, I think we both there forgot about infinite domains
15:31:04 <b_jonas> back to boolean functions, you also get four more as folds, unlike what I said, namely foreach on an ordered sequence that negates the first input, and exists on an ordered sequence that negates the last input, plus two just return the first input or its negation
15:31:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think cpressey did, the few days ago when he mentioned this
15:32:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I don’t insist :)
15:33:16 <b_jonas> cpressey: xor and xnor are associative, but they don't work for an infinite set of inputs, except you can take the xor of infinitely many inputs if all but finitely many of them are zero,
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15:34:12 <b_jonas> but then, if you are interested only in sequences with all but finitely many elements zero, that's fine, filter out the zeros and you can do a lot of things with it
15:34:32 <b_jonas> similarly xnor with all but finitely many elements nonzero
15:35:01 <b_jonas> (obviously all of this is with the modern convention that zero means false)
15:36:01 <arseniiv> . o O ( all but finitely many elements nonfalse :)
15:41:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well, there are two problems here. either 0=false or 0=true would make sense as a representation, perhaps neiter is better than the other, so we had to pick one, and eventually 0=false became standard, except in the posix shell for historical reasons.
15:43:02 <arseniiv> hm hm but were’n there a couple of mathematical reasons to treat 0 = false?
15:43:23 <b_jonas> the other problem is that once you pick 0=false, you can pick different representations for true, and which one is convenient can differ on what you're doing, so you can even use more than one representation in your program: 1, -1, min of your signed type, any nonzero value, or even the version where any nonnegative is positive and any negative is true
15:44:00 <b_jonas> plus you can choose different sizes of course, like 1 bit (in which case all of these are the same), 8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit, 64 bit, any other size you normally use for integers or whatever
15:44:10 <arseniiv> ah I thought you used Z₂
15:44:36 <b_jonas> but the problem is that 1=true vs -1=true can be confusing, because suddenly min isn't always false and max isn't always true
15:45:25 <b_jonas> so whenever you want to use a numeric value, outside of a specific language or library that has a convention (like C or BASIC or fortran), you just have to explicitly say if it matters
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15:52:48 <b_jonas> also the defaults can differ between representation and notation. in C these are the same, because the built-in comparison operators just return 0 or 1, that's all. but C++, in one of its more stupid non-C-compatible changes, changes that so that the comparison operators return bool true or false,
15:53:17 <b_jonas> which behave in high level language as 1 and 0 (that's how they cast to any type of integer or float), but can be represented in any way.
15:54:02 <b_jonas> in the x86 abis, they're represented as 8-byte integers with value 0=false 1=true, probably because of the annoying old 386 SETcc instructions that chose that representations and that we're now stuck with,
15:55:12 <b_jonas> but I sort of think that ideally, if you're not restricted to x86 or MMIX or any current architecture, 0=false -1=true would be the best representation, because that's easier with bitwise operations; but 0=false 1=true would be the best high level meaning (in the C++ sense), because that causes less confusion with signed and unsigned integer types
15:56:56 <b_jonas> and all the SSE and later x86 instructions know this, so the comparisons represent true as -1, and the instructions that takes boolean input from bytes (or longer words) check the sign bit only
15:59:37 <zzo38> Some programming languages don't have boolean values as separate values at all
16:00:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, specifically C. modern C has a _Bool type, but as it's added later, all the comparison operators still return int, AS THEY SHOULD, DARN YOU STROTROUP
16:04:33 <b_jonas> but there's also the opposite, languages where neither booleans convert implicitly to integers nor any integers convert implicitly to booleans
16:05:01 <b_jonas> oh yeah, modern perl has yet another representation: the empty string as false and 1 as true
16:05:46 <b_jonas> except it's not really the empty string, it's a dual scalar that is the empty string as a string and 0 without warning as a number
16:06:17 <zzo38> I mean something a bit different though; for example, in many assembly language where you will have "jump if positive", "jump if nonzero", etc.
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17:07:36 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> except it's not really the empty string, it's a dual scalar that is the empty string as a string and 0 without warning as a number => some strange entities do they have, eh
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17:10:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: nah, they have arbitrary dual scalars that contain a string and a number (the number can be any of a floating-point, an integer, or an unsigned integer),
17:11:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh now I need to see how do they initialize them
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17:12:05 <b_jonas> it's just that *most* such dual scalars that are ever created are either implicitly upgraded from a scalar that has only a string that you use a number so perl caches the number, or from a scalar that stores a number but gets implicitly upgraded to contain a string too by converting the number, or from a boolean false.
17:12:38 <b_jonas> but you *can* create arbitrary dual string/number scalars, there's a convenient function for it too: Scalar::Util::dualvar
17:13:02 <b_jonas> (all this applies to perl 5.10 or later, I don't want to keep track of history before that)
17:13:33 <b_jonas> there are, of course, also scalars that are not numbers or strings or combinations of them
17:14:02 <arseniiv> premature optimization bears weird things
17:14:06 <b_jonas> most of them still implicitly convert to a number and to a string, but they don't upgrade to store that sort of thing
17:14:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it made sense back in ye old days when perl was first created. perhaps not so much now.
17:15:21 <arseniiv> there should be an esolang which has many strange things due to carefully crafted “historical” reasons
17:16:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, you can add fake history. that sort of thing can be interesting even if it's only very modern history.
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17:17:24 <b_jonas> it's the sort of thing that's mostly done by conscripters, who create esoteric (in our sense) natural languages, due to Tolkien's tradition, but it's still possible with esoteric programming langugaes
17:17:28 <arseniiv> like, once I thought about a stack language which had a queue “stack” among others. Also there was a duplicating stack and a dropping stack (push a value, then pop two copies of it from the first and no copies at all from the second; almost all the commands moved from one or several stacks to another)
17:18:29 <arseniiv> conlanging/conworlding is interesting, yeah, though I have too few head resources to craft these things in detail I’d like
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17:19:08 <b_jonas> yes, sorry, conlangers and conscripters
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17:20:00 <b_jonas> arseniiv: does it count as a fake history when a language is designed as if its purpose was to implement in hardware, but you only ever plan to implement it in software? MIX and MMIX are such cases
17:20:16 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think no conlang is good enough without considering its writing system in some detail, even if it’s an auxlang with latin alphabet
17:20:26 <arseniiv> so no harm mixing a bit
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17:20:49 <arseniiv> and no writing system is good without considering who would use it for what
17:21:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> arseniiv: does it count as a fake history when a language is designed as if its purpose was to implement in hardware, but you only ever plan to implement it in software? MIX and MMIX are such cases => this seems a boundary case but why not indeed
17:23:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't see why that would be the case, for two reasons. (1) there are and especially were a lot of natural languages that were used extensively and were certainly useful, but either were never written or were rarely contemporarily written so much that the writing clearly isn't what adds value. why would the writing be necessary for a conlang? this is opposed to a programming language, where I
17:23:24 <b_jonas> see why writing is generally the best form.
17:24:56 <b_jonas> (2) there are ancient languages where most people don't bother much with the original writing system, we just transcribe the relatively few artifacts we have and work with the transcriptions, because that's easier for us. ancient egyptian and akkadian would be examples for that. and even for languages where we still sort of use the same script, the writing has evolved a lot:
17:26:26 <b_jonas> consider latin, which has been a dead language for a pretty long time, but preserved due to the role of christianty. these days we write it in fancy Times roman and italic style lower case letters, with spaces and sometimes punctuation, that weren't used five hundred years ago and may have taken weeks for a scholar back then to adapt to.
17:27:15 <b_jonas> you could say it's sort of the same writing system, but a lot has changed. can you even read the Fraktur and Blackletter scripts that were used on some ceremonial official documents like university diplomas thirty years ago, and heavily actively used like 120 years ago?
17:27:37 <b_jonas> yes, some people can read them, in as much as some people can read Chinese too
17:28:48 <b_jonas> admittedly the writing system changes often more superficially than the spoken language, so deciphering the writing system style within the same script (latin in this example) and adapting to read it is much easier than deciphering and learning the language
17:30:05 <b_jonas> the cases I mentioned only work because the languages were dead and either preserved on written artifacts (stone, clay, vellum, papyrus etc), or because the language was half-dead and so its form was preserved by organized religion for a long time (latin and church slavonic)
17:32:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I forgot about unwritten languages, sorry
17:35:55 <zzo38> You might use METAFONT if you want to invent your own writing too, rather than using existing kind of writing, I think.
17:37:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: in fact, writing second and oral form first is the standard for natural languages, and the only languages that exist primarily as writing are the dead ones preserved by religion or artifacts that I mentioned
17:38:19 <zzo38> Yes, I think that is why Latin words are pronounced differently sometimes
17:40:08 <arseniiv> yeah, and also in languages with heavy literary norms the writing slightly leaks into oral language but usually this leak is equated zero
17:41:20 <zzo38> I had some ideas about conlang, one idea is about involving different physiology
17:42:09 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, that always happens, in English and a lot of other languages
18:02:45 <zzo38> Some kind of writing, such as Germanic rune writing, they don't use much, now using Latin writing instead.
18:06:47 <b_jonas> oh yeah, futhark runes, as well as Tolkien's conscripts (tengwar and certh) are also examples where they survived in artifacts that we have transliterated and are only studying in transliterations now and use modern scripts to write the ancient languages, in addition to egyptian and akkadian
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19:14:34 <shachaf> catern: Yes.
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19:21:12 <catern> shachaf: is that the kind of thing you were thinking of in your tweet?
19:21:59 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73455 * Sugarfi * (+1138) Created page with "== Rfghy == Rfghy is a simple esolang based around the idea of self-modifying code. There are two registers: `!` and `@`. Each "cycle" of the Rfghy interpreter, `!` is execut..."
19:22:01 <shachaf> It's the same family of thing, I guess?
19:22:08 <catern> both of them seemed like fairly "direct-style" (here labeled "immediate-mode") argument parsing
19:22:39 <shachaf> Do you know the human who made that other library?
19:22:51 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73456&oldid=73455 * Sugarfi * (-22) /* Rfghy */
19:23:10 <catern> yes, I used to work with him
19:23:13 <esowiki> [[Rfghjy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73457&oldid=73456 * Sugarfi * (-12) /* Rfghy */
19:23:52 <shachaf> My friend was talking about them independently in some other context recently.
19:24:57 <catern> how coincidental
19:25:35 <catern> you two should discuss argument parsing - although maybe it's my myopia that makes me think your two schemes look very similar
19:26:49 <shachaf> I mean, argument parsing doesn't matter that much, I'm sure both are fine.
19:27:16 <shachaf> The thing where it parses everything upfront, and gives you the number of times each flag appears etc., is kind of different.
19:29:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73458 * Bigyihsuan * (+316) Created page with "The '''International Phonetic Esoteric Language''', abbreviated to '''IPEL''', is a stack-based [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:Bigyihsuan]] based on the idea of u..."
19:29:31 <catern> well, yes, argument parsing isn't that fundamental, and especially not in C; better to use a better language for the command-line-UI and just call into C from there
19:30:17 <esowiki> [[User:Bigyihsuan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73459 * Bigyihsuan * (+86) Created page with "This is my page! '''Languages created:''' * International Phonetic Esoteric Language"
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19:30:40 <catern> (on the other hand, in some ways, getopt-style CLI arguments are the only standard serialization form for data on Unix, so that could make it important... but probably not)
19:32:05 <shachaf> Why better to use two languages instead of one?
19:34:10 <catern> 'cause I don't want to do fancy UIs in C
19:35:06 <catern> but I presume C is important for some mysterious reason otherwise everyone wouldn't be writing all these argument parsing libraries for C
19:35:59 <catern> also, IPC is a hassle - my program should be available as a library anyway, and my program just a fancy UI over that library. well, that's my cached thought on the topic, maybe it's not right
19:36:27 <shachaf> I think something like that is right. Command line programs make for pretty bad libraries.
19:40:03 <catern> and if I'm writing in C, it's easy to write a library that's usable from many languages - so if I should be writing a library anyway, it's convenient and easy to write my UI in whatever language is best for writing in UIs
19:40:11 <shachaf> Mixing APIs and UIs has struck me as a bad idea for a long time.
19:40:42 <shachaf> I agree with that, but then what language should I write the UI in?
19:41:17 <zzo38> I think you could use C for both, if wanted
19:41:27 <catern> that's too concrete of a question for me, I only deal in vagueries
19:41:40 <catern> (in practice I use Python)
19:42:16 <shachaf> $ tym pip3 > /dev/null
19:42:19 <shachaf> time: real 0.532s (user 0.488s, sys 0.044s; 99.96% cpu)
19:42:44 <zzo38> Some programming languages don't have the best way to access C libraries though; for example, PostScript doesn't have a good way to do it (mostly what I do then is using printobject and/or writeobject). Also, you can know how the Glk dispatch API works; it is a design that works better when used from multiple programming languages, than what C does.
19:42:45 <shachaf> Probably this program is an outlier, but over 500ms for printing the help screen isn't encouraging.
19:43:17 <catern> scheme? typescript? haskell?
19:43:34 <catern> surely there has to be some language that is good....!
19:43:52 <shachaf> If only there was. Then I could use it instead of C for the library as well.
19:44:27 <zzo38> Well, there are some, which as assembly language, but assembly language isn't so portable.
19:45:14 <catern> shachaf: going back a bit, do you not buy into the, "APIs are UIs" idea? (and symmetrically, UIs are APIs)
19:45:32 <catern> personally, I think merging UI and API closer together is a really interesting area for research
19:45:40 <shachaf> I do not.
19:45:45 <shachaf> Well, at least in their current state.
19:45:59 <shachaf> I agree that merging them could be interesting.
19:46:40 <zzo38> I think that sometimes APIs can be good as UIs, and sometimes not so much. (Other way around also)
19:46:45 <shachaf> There are many ways that Unix command line programs are designed to be UIs -- for human use on specific things -- rather than APIs.
19:47:22 <shachaf> Say you have `rm a b c`, and you want to parameterize that on a list of items. In bash you could write something like `rm ${list[@]}`
19:47:30 <shachaf> What can go wrong just from doing that?
19:47:52 <catern> many things, but that's partially bash's fault though
19:47:55 <shachaf> arr might be empty; an element of arr might start with -; an element of arr might contain whitespace; ...
19:48:06 <zzo38> I usually write "echo" first to check that it is correct
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19:48:35 <zzo38> In shell scripts I might add -- before the other arguments
19:48:39 <catern> I would prefer rm to have a typed interface though, for sure
19:48:40 <shachaf> Some of these are just problems with the Unix command line norms, sure.
19:48:51 <shachaf> zzo38: But that still doesn't handle the empty list case.
19:49:04 <catern> e.g (filepath list) -> IO ()
19:49:08 <shachaf> Oh, also some items of arr -- which I called list above -- might contain whitespace.
19:49:48 <zzo38> Yes, but the empty list case is I think a problem with rm itself; rm should successfully do nothing if there are no arguments, I think.
19:50:13 <shachaf> A UI is intended to be discoverable as you use it, whereas an API has to be discoverable up-front, I suppose.
19:50:30 <catern> (for example, some complicated UI systems have macro systems which you can perform actions using the rich UI capabilities to, in effect, specify a program. and the most powerful IDEs can make it easy to quickly program against APIs through autocomplete and various things. could the two be merged closer together?)
19:51:33 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think that Unix command line is good for a lot of stuff, although for writing full programs, C and other programming languages are better
19:51:35 <catern> anyway, if they could be brought closer together, it would be interesting to, instead of the Unix interface which just passes a list of strings to rm, have a nicely typed interface for rm, and many other utilities like it
19:52:08 <shachaf> Yes, maybe a better shell UI would look a bit more like that, such that you pass structured data to "commands" (which might just be library calls), and it helps you put them together easily.
19:52:39 <shachaf> I've thought about things like that before. There are many other interface improvements you can make to terminals and shells.
19:54:28 <int-e> > isLower 'ꙮ'
19:54:30 <lambdabot> False
19:54:35 <int-e> > isUpper 'ꙮ'
19:54:37 <lambdabot> False
19:54:50 <zzo38> One thing I thought is in Plan10 to have "chain segments", and environment variables and command-line arguments are implemented using chain segments, but then you could define other interfaces too.
19:55:30 <catern> I have a vague suspicion that too many people have tried to make shells better or smarter in various ways - it might be a dead end - maybe it would be more productive to go the other direction, and use your fancy Emacs Agda IDE to manipulate files instead of snippets of code
19:56:27 <shachaf> I am not too much into turbo-fancy IDEs.
19:58:04 <int-e> . o O ( 100% CPU for a blinking cursor. )
19:59:21 <zzo38> If a program calls another program using exec(), and the new program and old program have any chain segments with the same name, then that memory is retained rather than being reset.
19:59:26 <catern> well, turbo-fancy IDEs are hard to manipulate and program right now, so it's quite reasonable. but maybe they can be made more programmable (in a way that your knowledge of the UI directly allow programmability)
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19:59:50 <catern> zzo38: what about passing file descriptors or other non-memory resources?
20:00:04 <catern> (such as stdin/stdout/stderr)
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20:00:37 <zzo38> catern: You can already do that in the normal way.
20:01:07 <catern> zzo38: so then why not pass a chain segment as a normal resource rather than by name?
20:02:45 <catern> shachaf: like, one reason I don't like turbo-fancy IDEs is that clicking a button doesn't correlate with knowing the name of the function that that button invokes. which makes it harder to write program involving those functions. but the underlying issue there is that you need to identify the function by some name - why can't you identify it by clicking the button?
20:02:54 <catern> or something like that
20:05:40 <zzo38> catern: I am not sure if I understand your question fully.
20:08:47 <catern> zzo38: it sounds like you're proposing that processes have a table of chain segments which they can look up by a string name, and which contain data, is that right? but resources like file descriptors also can contain data. why not unify the two, and instead of having a table of chain segments, just have a table of file descriptors? you can preserve the lookup-by-string-name thing if you want
20:12:37 <zzo38> Well, it is a bit different. I was thinking of chain segments like other (unnamed) segments declared in the ELF file would be loaded in memory; chain segments are the same but they have a name, and if it has a name then the operating system can retain whatever data is there rather than reset it, if both programs have the same name of chain segment. If the previous program doesn't have such a segment, then it is loaded like any other se
20:13:34 <zzo38> (So, it is otherwise like PT_LOAD, but it does not necessarily load the contents of the executable file.)
20:15:13 <zzo38> (Chain segments could be used for other purposes too, such as to implement overlays in a way that is sometimes done in DOS programs.)
20:30:43 <catern> I see
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20:49:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: "`rm ${list[@]}` [...] What can go wrong just from doing that?" => some things that you can fix by writing (rm -- "${list[@]}") instead, and apart from that, errors that you get when you expand a shell parameter or make variable that you thought would be defined but actually isn't and get an empty string, in which case you get serious bugs like that recent uninstaller that tried to rm -rf --
20:49:53 <b_jonas> "/usr/${SOMEVARIABLE}" and in fact deleted the /usr of anyone who tried to uninstall their program
20:50:11 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, I know.
20:50:34 <arseniiv> isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:50:35 <shachaf> The point is that hardly anyone writes that unless they're writing a script.
20:50:40 <esowiki> [[NARchy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73464&oldid=58278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-29)
20:50:44 <arseniiv> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:50:47 <lambdabot> True
20:50:52 <shachaf> So it highlights how different the UI vs. API thing even in the same program.
20:50:53 <arseniiv> int-e ^^^
20:51:04 <arseniiv> lambdabot knows it all
20:51:05 <shachaf> And of course this still doesn't solve every problem.
20:51:16 <int-e> Ah the abuses of @let.
20:51:29 <shachaf> For example if the list is empty this will still be an error.
20:51:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: as for "array may be empty" => yes, that can also cause serious bugs with some shell commands, though in the case of rm it's not generally a problem, unless it's a REALLY weird extglob nullglob problem where you accidentally remove a file named "!(*.jpg)"
20:51:57 <arseniiv> int-e: what @let?
20:51:57 <shachaf> It's a problem because rm will exit with 1 instead of 0.
20:52:03 <int-e> @undef
20:52:04 <lambdabot> Undefined.
20:52:11 <int-e> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:52:14 <lambdabot> error:
20:52:14 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: isEsoteric :: Char -> t
20:52:19 <arseniiv> interesting :o
20:52:24 <int-e> @let isEsoteric _ = True
20:52:25 <lambdabot> Defined.
20:52:27 <int-e> > isEsoteric 'ꙮ'
20:52:29 <lambdabot> True
20:52:31 <int-e> @undef
20:52:31 <lambdabot> Undefined.
20:52:32 <b_jonas> "<catern> I would prefer rm to have a typed interface though, for sure" => you're in luck then, we have a remove C function for that, and various apis (mostly in high level languages) for recursive rm
20:52:44 <arseniiv> hm I think you retroactively defined it for that earlier case, then
20:53:17 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> zzo38: But that still doesn't handle the empty list case." => it does if you have a -f option. (rm -f --) successfully does nothing and returns true
20:53:33 <shachaf> Yes, but then it does -f on everything else.
20:53:54 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Yes, but the empty list case is I think a problem with rm itself" => no, rm handles it well, it's more of a problem with programs that interpret an empty argument list as acting on stdin
20:56:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: re chain segments, instead on unix we have three different shared memory APIs in kernel+libc: mmap, sysv ipc, posix ipc. plus some higher level wrappers, such as one in boost whose purpose is to give a portable wrapper to unix vs windows.
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20:57:48 <shachaf> Even if rm did work perfectly here, it wouldn't help you that much because that'd be a big outlier in terms of unixular utilities.
20:58:56 <b_jonas> that said, something like "chain segment" made sense in high level languages like BASIC on old machines that had very limited RAM, where you would often want to load another BASIC program in such a way as to replace most of your program, but you asked BASIC to chain some of your variables and/or some of your programs.
20:59:29 <esowiki> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73465&oldid=65580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Interpreters */
20:59:55 <zzo38> Yes, using the CHAIN command, I think.
21:01:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73466&oldid=70716 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Code that actually works as required */
21:02:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: you usually want -f when you invoke rm from a script. Even without -f, (rm --) does nothing, it just gives you an error, which is sometimes acceptible, the rest of the time you indeed may need a workaround
21:02:47 <b_jonas> but yes, empty list of files is a much bigger problem for other commands
21:02:50 <b_jonas> like grep or ls
21:03:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: but also the MERGE command, which is sort of the same but keeps all variables and most of the code, so it's more useful to load and unload overload code segments
21:04:22 <arseniiv> @let passwordOfTheMonth = "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"" ++ take passwordOfTheMonth 27 ++ "\" -- is not quine"
21:04:23 <lambdabot> .L.hs:158:5: error:
21:04:23 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
21:04:23 <lambdabot> • In the expression:
21:04:36 <arseniiv> @let passwordOfTheMonth = "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"" ++ take 27 passwordOfTheMonth ++ "\" -- is not quine"
21:04:38 <lambdabot> Defined.
21:04:44 <arseniiv> > passwordOfTheMonth
21:04:47 <lambdabot> "@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"@let passwordOfTheMonth = \"\" -- is not quine"
21:05:13 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+191) Created page with "An esolang based on [[string]] [[rewriting]]. Out of bounds indexing -> 0. ==Examples== ===[[Cat]] program=== 0..*=0..*H ===Reverse [[cat]]=== 0..*=*..0H ===Truth-machin..."
21:05:15 <arseniiv> oh it’s way clumsier than intended
21:05:25 <arseniiv> @undef
21:05:25 <lambdabot> Undefined.
21:05:56 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73468&oldid=73467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-191) delete!
21:06:01 <b_jonas> these days that sort of chaining is rarely relevant, because virtual memory helps you both ways: it lets you swap out parts of your program that are not needed right now, so you can just have one big program, and it lets you cache the contents of regular files that you use to pass data from one program to the next one, such as object files between a compiler and linker
21:06:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73469 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+191) Created page with "An esolang based on [[string]] [[rewriting]]. Out of bounds indexing -> 0. ==Examples== ===[[Cat]] program=== 0..*=0..*H ===Reverse [[cat]]=== 0..*=*..0H ===Truth-machin..."
21:09:36 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73470&oldid=73413 * Polybagel * (+755)
21:10:11 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73471&oldid=73470 * Polybagel * (+1)
21:10:40 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73472&oldid=73471 * Polybagel * (+1)
21:11:00 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73473&oldid=73462 * Bigyihsuan * (+3568)
21:12:03 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73474&oldid=73473 * Bigyihsuan * (+107)
21:12:12 <zzo38> Why does Glulx require the number of arguments to be specified for Glk API calls, even though that can be determined automatically from the type (which the interpreter needs to know anyways, in order to parse the arguments properly)?
21:23:22 <spruit11> To make it easy to walk or dump the stack?
21:24:53 <esowiki> [[Swapper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73475&oldid=52869 * Voltage2007 * (-399) bit big of an edit
21:25:21 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73476&oldid=73474 * Bigyihsuan * (+286)
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21:37:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: perhaps as a form of redundancy against programming errors?
21:38:54 <zzo38> Maybe.
22:18:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:19:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: can it be an artifact from a rarely used vararg function API, possibly one that's not even supported anymore, but whose existence has side effects to non-vararg functions? because that sort of happened to C varargs, which even on x86_64 have an effect on the ABI of a few non-vararg function calls, because we can't distinguish the ABI of vararg function calls from non-vararg calls, because that
22:19:27 <b_jonas> could break old C programs with no ANSI style prototypes for a function,
22:20:29 <b_jonas> even though nobody in the x86_64 era writes any new C programs that require that you can call a vararg function without a prototype, except when omitting #include <stdio.h> for golf purposes.
22:20:57 <fizzie> It would be perfectly legal to break those programs; it's not possible to call a vararg function without a prototype.
22:22:11 <fizzie> "If the expression that denotes the called function has a type that does not include a prototype -- [and if] the function is defined with a type that includes a prototype, and -- the prototype ends with an ellipsis --, the behavior is undefined."
22:22:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: not according to the current C standards (or even C89 I think), but in old compilers it was perfectly possible to call printf or open without a prototype, and as a result people wrote programs that did that and got away with it
22:22:49 <fizzie> Right, that sort of compatibility thing.
22:22:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, the C standard says that exactly because we don't want to support that sort of nonsense forever into the future
22:23:08 <b_jonas> but for now we still have some ancient C programs without prototypes so we can't do it yet
22:23:21 <b_jonas> or we couldn't do it yet when x86_64 came out
22:23:22 <fizzie> Is that really true though? The x86-64 varargs ABI *is* different -- will compilers use it "just in case" if there's no prototype?
22:23:50 <zzo38> I don't think so, because Glk doesn't use varargs, and anyways it is Glulx, not C. (There is a C API for Glk too, although the Glk dispatch layer deals with the types of the functions and calls them (and also exposes the types in a portable format for all programming languages), so the Glulx interpreter will already know the type and number of arguments, even in case of extensions to Glk.)
22:24:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think so for at least one of the two x86_64 abis, but I'll have to look that up, and it impacts only a few function calls (depending on the type of arguments)
22:24:15 <fizzie> Apparently they do. Huh.
22:24:17 <zzo38> (And I have made some extensions to Glk. Making these extensions does not require changing the Glulx interpreter in any way.)
22:24:23 <fizzie> Well, it's not a huge hassle, addmittedly.
22:25:13 <fizzie> I would imagine for the SysV ABI it would affect all prototype-less calls, because you have to clear rax (or rather, set al to the "proper" value), which you otherwise wouldn't.
22:25:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: but you can see that the ABI is designed such that the called function can access the first argument without knowing what the type of the rest of the arguments are, which probably doesn't cause any performance problems, but even so it is a decision prompted by the vararg history
22:26:37 <b_jonas> I'll have to look up the details about the x86_64 ABIs in the Agner document later to tell what the AL thing was about, the one that can impact performance. I simply don't remember.,
22:27:26 <fizzie> You must set AL to the number of SIMD registers used for passing floating-point arguments if you're calling a varargs function.
22:27:43 <fizzie> http://ix.io/2oM5 does it for the call to f_noproto, and doesn't for the call to f_withproto.
22:28:13 <fizzie> I imagine it would by definition "affect" performance insofar that it's an extra instruction.
22:28:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: but in that case doesn't it impacts only functions that have arguments with floating point in them?
22:28:56 <fizzie> No, because you have to set it to 0 if they don't.
22:29:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: even if you have a prototype and so know that the function isn't vararg?
22:29:17 <b_jonas> which is the majority of function calls
22:29:22 <fizzie> Right, yes.
22:30:01 <fizzie> The point I was trying to make is that the fact that it's "forced" to assume prototype-less functions might be varargs is affecting all calls to prototype-less functions.
22:30:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: ah ok
22:30:17 <b_jonas> that makes sense
22:31:23 <b_jonas> and we'll get rid of non-prototyped function calls way before we get rid of varargs in C, because *printf, *scanf and open are here to stay.
22:31:53 <b_jonas> (I know some other vararg C functions that are probably here to stay, but they're used less than those)
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22:35:04 <spruit11> The fact that you can walk the C stack probably made C++ exceptions possible..
22:36:22 <b_jonas> spruit11: that might be true historically (I don't know), but these days you can't walk the C stack
22:36:40 <spruit11> It was a conjecture. No idea.
22:36:42 <b_jonas> and by "these days" that was already true 20 years ago
22:36:42 <fizzie> I've been browsing the c2x draft (there's one from Feb this year), and it's got a few headline-grabbing features. Like, `strdup` is finally in, and the [[foo]] attribute syntax has been ported back from C++ (though only for [[nodiscard]], [[maybe_unused]], [[deprecated]] and [[fallthrough]], all of which are merely for better diagnostics).
22:38:00 <fizzie> Oh, and old-style function definitions are out, which is almost relevant to the earlier discussion.
22:38:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there any feature that they could consider standardizing in the form of an attribute and isn't merely for diagnostics? hmm yes, there is, [[no_unique_address]], but that's so new it just didn't have a chance to get into C standard proposals yet
22:38:51 <zzo38> OK, strdup is in, now, but is memdup in yet?
22:39:03 <fizzie> (Sort-of unfortunately prototype-free declarations aren't out.)
22:39:16 <spruit11> Link to the c2x draft?
22:39:20 <fizzie> `memdup` is not.
22:39:21 <HackEso> memdup`? No such file or directory
22:39:35 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2478.pdf
22:39:43 <spruit11> Thanks.
22:40:33 <fizzie> There are also a bunch of more recent documents at http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/wg14_document_log.htm but no newer full working draft.
22:40:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: there's no point to remove prototype-free declarations from the standard, we'll not remove them from real life because they'll still in use (for compatibility only, with default warning, not for new code), so removing it from the standard would be ... oh I see. yes, ignoring the real world and depreciating something that is in use would be exactly the sort of thing that those standard committees
22:40:41 <b_jonas> occasionally try to do
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22:40:59 <fizzie> Well, they removed `gets`.
22:41:10 <fizzie> I suspect it's still in use.
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22:41:28 <b_jonas> spruit11: you can probably find it from http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/
22:42:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: did they remove asctime or ctime?
22:43:10 <spruit11> Hmm. I guess unwinding is done by just tracing links.
22:43:11 <fizzie> No, but they added asctime_r and ctime_r.
22:43:16 <fizzie> So maybe that's a step?
22:43:31 <zzo38> Well, gets is the function they should remove.
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2020-06-10
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01:53:57 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73477&oldid=73476 * Bigyihsuan * (+9122)
01:54:09 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73478&oldid=73477 * Bigyihsuan * (-9)
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02:10:28 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73479&oldid=73478 * Bigyihsuan * (+427)
02:11:51 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73480&oldid=73479 * Bigyihsuan * (+124)
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04:11:09 <oren> ꟇꟈꟉꟊꟵꟶ
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04:58:54 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73481&oldid=73480 * Bigyihsuan * (+1)
05:09:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73482 * Bigyihsuan * (+51) /* Task List */ new section
05:09:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73483&oldid=73482 * Bigyihsuan * (+8)
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06:38:08 <oren> English pony, from French poulenet, from Latin pullanus, from latin pullus cognate to Spanish pollo "chicken"
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09:24:21 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73484 * D * (+167) Create page for new language.
09:28:03 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73485&oldid=73484 * D * (+253)
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09:29:57 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73486&oldid=73485 * D * (+397)
09:31:15 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73487&oldid=73486 * D * (+276)
09:32:53 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73488&oldid=73487 * D * (+399)
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09:35:09 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73489&oldid=73488 * D * (+516)
09:39:49 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73490&oldid=73489 * D * (+111)
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10:25:49 <shachaf> Is it easy or hard to check whether a proposed clause is implied by existing SAT clauses in an instance?
10:32:15 <cpressey> Yes.
10:33:33 <rain1> thoughts on squarefree words?
10:36:31 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73491&oldid=73490 * A * (+185)
10:36:46 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73492&oldid=73491 * A * (+33)
10:37:32 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73493&oldid=73492 * A * (+165)
10:37:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73494&oldid=73493 * A * (+0)
10:39:08 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73495&oldid=73494 * A * (+117)
10:40:15 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73496&oldid=73495 * A * (+144)
10:40:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: hard, in that it's as hard as SAT solving in general
10:41:18 <b_jonas> which is NP-complete
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10:47:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73497&oldid=73496 * A * (+118)
10:48:48 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73498&oldid=73497 * A * (+102)
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10:54:57 <esowiki> [[Mice in a maze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73499&oldid=73357 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Explain why you would want to see also
10:55:36 <esowiki> [[HUNTER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73500&oldid=73358 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Explain why you would want to see also
10:59:21 <esowiki> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73501&oldid=53351 * Chris Pressey * (+150) See also Revaver2pi
11:00:10 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73502&oldid=34906 * Chris Pressey * (+80) See also Burro
11:02:23 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73503&oldid=73502 * Chris Pressey * (+41) +cat
11:04:15 <esowiki> [[Revaver2pi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73504&oldid=73503 * Chris Pressey * (+16) Dead link; Wayback machine does not have it either
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11:16:30 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73505&oldid=52938 * Chris Pressey * (+26) +cat
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11:46:56 <esowiki> [[Forked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73506&oldid=54092 * Chris Pressey * (+1) From context it's quite clear there are not actually an infinite number of IPs running at any point
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11:51:58 <shachaf> What about special cases like learned clauses?
11:52:04 <shachaf> You could remember the resolution path but it might be long.
11:52:19 <shachaf> If the clause is short, I guess it can be pretty easy?
11:52:47 <shachaf> Hmm, can it?
11:56:09 <shachaf> Of course not.
11:56:25 <shachaf> I was thinkig about it all confusedly.
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13:05:53 <Taneb> Something I was thinking about recently is if a "shallowest path" SAT solver type thing could make something approximating a human-readable proof
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13:17:03 <int-e> Taneb: A related domain is assessing the difficulty of (NP-complete) puzzles. And you can see some difficulties there: a) humans incorporate patterns which may embed arbitrarily complex reasoning. b) we also tend to be happy to reason deeply as long as there's not much branching (how much branching people cope with may be a measure of their expertise).
13:17:37 <int-e> I'm sure this has been studied academically. But I never got interested enough to actually look.
13:18:37 <int-e> Puzzles (in NP) are probably easier than proofs because a large amount of the puzzle logic tends to be naturally expressed in clauses.
13:20:14 <int-e> (Though some mechanics aren't. There are a ton of puzzles where a path or an area needs to be connected, or you actually count something, which doesn't translate so well to CNF.)
13:20:15 <int-e> And obviously we have plenty of puzzles that are hard for PSPACE or worse.
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13:21:03 <int-e> (Which tend to exercise the visual planning part of our brain, which acts nothing like a SAT solver.)
13:27:53 <int-e> Taneb: that said, depth is certainly a factor, but so are branching, and size. And there are factors beyond the shape of the proof tree like the complexity of representing a subgoal, compression through lemmas... it's an interesting question but not an easy one at all.
13:43:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73507&oldid=36966 * Chris Pressey * (+401)
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14:01:04 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73508 * Chris Pressey * (+2093) Add TM2Burro compiler, showing Burro is TC.
14:06:30 <esowiki> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73509&oldid=73501 * Chris Pressey * (+72) I submit that the language is Turing complete.
14:09:14 <esowiki> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73510&oldid=73509 * Chris Pressey * (+77) Rephrase section about replicating brainfuck loops.
14:11:01 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73511&oldid=73508 * Chris Pressey * (+38) Note where the TM starts.
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14:45:32 <esowiki> [[Heebolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73512&oldid=73472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) header
14:47:43 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73513&oldid=73481 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) inter wiki link + move cats
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14:50:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73514&oldid=56246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Hello Program */
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14:51:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck-- interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73515&oldid=65071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17)
14:52:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck--]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73516&oldid=59760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */
14:54:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73517&oldid=73514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-42) /* See Also: */ why link to another langs interpreter?
14:55:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73518&oldid=73517 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* See also */
14:57:10 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73519&oldid=62688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External resources */
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16:09:17 <esowiki> [[Burro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73520&oldid=73510 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* See also */
16:11:49 <esowiki> [[Circles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73521&oldid=72427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) cats
16:12:20 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73522&oldid=71991 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-89)
16:15:52 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73523&oldid=69291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4)
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19:06:56 <shachaf> So now my macro goes #define CYCLE(x) Thing *y = x; if (0)
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19:07:09 <shachaf> Is that too confusilating a macro?
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19:34:50 <zzo38> I had idea of a computer video card with a display program, which I may have mentioned some time ago, where the display program deals with programming the registers and calculating all of the offsets for vertical positioning (the video registers do not deal with vertical positioning at all). But one thing to consider is what exactly the set of video registers should be (although I have some ideas).
19:36:27 <zzo38> One thing I thought of is to have some sort of left/right split, with only one side supporting fine X scrolling and sprites, although making the timing for such a thing working properly might be difficult.
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20:18:50 <esowiki> [[Category:Quantum computing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73524&oldid=45374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
20:20:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73525&oldid=73250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Quantumness */ if this belongs somewhere else on the page, move it
20:20:47 <esowiki> [[Semi-quantum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73526&oldid=59468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29)
20:22:03 <esowiki> [[SoT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73527&oldid=71969 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
20:24:26 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73528&oldid=73505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Commands */
20:26:38 <esowiki> [[Jeeves]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73529&oldid=73528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) /* Interpreter and syntax */ cats
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20:50:33 <esowiki> [[Template:Cs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) Created page with " <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans'">{{{1|}}}</span>"
20:54:25 <esowiki> [[Template:Cs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73532&oldid=73531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3)
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21:04:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1635) Created page with "This page would have many categories as an esolang. It is a [[:Category:Nondeterministic|nondeterministic]] [[:Category:High-level|high-level]] :Category:Non-textual|non-tex..."
21:04:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73535&oldid=73534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */
21:18:22 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73536 * Baidicoot * (+384) Created page with "Soviet Script is an implementation of a langusge on the joke language list where all functions are global and shared between users through a United Soviet Script Repository (U..."
21:18:56 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73537&oldid=73536 * Baidicoot * (+0)
21:20:12 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73538&oldid=73537 * Baidicoot * (-1)
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21:49:21 <zzo38> I thought of this effect for a Magic: the Gathering card: Target a permanent you own. Shuffle all Auras attached to that permanent into their owner's libraries, and then redistribute the counters on that permanent among any number of other permanents of your choice, and then shuffle that permanent into your library.
21:51:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: that last effect could be annoying if you often use this on a token target, because then you still have to shuffle your library. of course, shuffling your library is sometimes an advantage, but still.
21:52:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: also something like this would probably have to cost blue and green
21:52:59 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Temporal Spring
21:53:01 <HackEso> Temporal Spring \ 1GU \ Sorcery \ Put target permanent on top of its owner's library. \ AP-C
21:53:18 <b_jonas> but I'm not convinced the complexity of that combination is worth it
21:53:24 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem like it would pull its weight
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21:56:02 <zzo38> OK. Still, it is different in some ways, and it could also be made an instant possibly. I don't know.
21:56:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's definitely different, and more powerful, I was just trying to figure out what colors it would need to be
21:56:57 <b_jonas> or perhaps less powerful because it only works on your own permanents? I dunno
21:57:06 <b_jonas> well, on permanents you own
21:57:11 <zzo38> Probaly both; more in some ways and less in other ways.
21:59:54 <zzo38> This is another card I made up and is the most recently added card to by "zivstr.db" set: Rune Deletion {2(W/U)(W/U)} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, remove all counters from enchanted permanent. ;; Enchanted permanent loses all ability text.
22:01:50 <b_jonas> what is "loses all ability text"? do you mean just a Humble ability, or do you want a text-replacement effect?
22:01:56 <b_jonas> `card-by-name humble
22:01:56 <HackEso> Humble \ 1W \ Instant \ Until end of turn, target creature loses all abilities and has base power and toughness 0/1. \ US-U, EMA-C \ \ Humble Budoka \ 1G \ Creature -- Human Monk \ 2/2 \ Shroud (This creature can't be the target of spells or abilities.) \ CHK-C \ \ Humble Defector \ 1R \ Creature -- Human Rogue \ 2/1 \ {T}: Draw two cards. Target opponent gains control of Humble Defector. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ FRF-U,
22:04:02 <zzo38> It is a layer 3 (text replacement) effect, rather than a layer 6 effect like Humble, so it is a bit different.
22:04:14 <int-e> . o O ( Tappen im Dunkeln - Magic-Spieler klagen über schlechte Beleuchtung. )
22:05:17 <zzo38> int-e: What is that, is it German?
22:05:41 <int-e> (For b_jonas I guess. I just read the first part as a headline right after reading parts of the discussion here. It really means stumbing around in the dark, so it's hard to translate.)
22:06:32 <int-e> I added "Magic players complain about bad lighting."
22:07:16 <zzo38> O, OK.
22:27:38 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73539&oldid=73498 * A * (+191)
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22:34:34 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73541&oldid=73540 * A * (+495)
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22:38:04 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73544&oldid=73543 * A * (+153)
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22:44:14 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73548&oldid=73547 * A * (+61)
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23:25:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NotVeryGoodAtThis * New user account
23:33:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73549&oldid=73450 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+329) added my intro
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23:37:12 <esowiki> [[User:NotVeryGoodAtThis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73550 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+6) Created page with "Oh hey"
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23:38:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73551&oldid=73549 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+18) added wiki links to my intro
23:40:50 <esowiki> [[Soviet Script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73552&oldid=73538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Cats
23:44:45 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Manycats]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73553&oldid=73535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72)
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2020-06-11
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00:29:10 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73554&oldid=73513 * Bigyihsuan * (+153)
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01:20:10 <tswett[m]> Anyone have a nice example of an easily computable function which is a bijection, but whose inverse is difficult to compute?
01:20:56 <tswett[m]> I just thought of a function which technically qualifies, but whose domain (which is identical to its codomain) is itself very difficult to compute.
01:21:32 <tswett[m]> The domain is the collection of all 1000x1000 grids of bits which loop in Conway's Game of Life.
01:21:50 <tswett[m]> It's easy to compute the next state; it's hard to compute the previous state.
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02:06:23 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. Let it be known that I oppose this kind of behaviour, regardless of the reason. (They say it is because those cards are racist. What they should do then is to stop making racist cards; they shouldn't erase the history of the cards.)
02:07:30 <zzo38> There are valid reasons to ban some cards in some formats, but probably not in Vintage.
02:07:49 <zzo38> They can, of course, put those cards in the reserve list and never print them again; that is OK too, I suppose.
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02:20:06 <zzo38> Unfortunately, the change in the multiverse ID number makes even more of a mess; if they do reverse that decision, then that card will need to have two multiverse ID numbers for the same printing, and that is no good either. Removing the new multiverse ID number is also bad, because now that number is assigned for that card and someone might use the new multiverse ID number.
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02:29:34 <zzo38> (This banning also has an unfortunate interaction with one of the silver bordered cards, and trying to deal with that (even if they undo their changes) would probably make even more of a mess than it already is. Well, I think.)
02:31:31 <zzo38> (Of course, if they are banned in some formats due to game balance problems (or because the cards are rare and you are playing a format that forbids rare cards), then they should remain banned, but this should presumably not include Vintage, I think.)
02:38:41 <Cale> I don't know, it seems fine to me for them to eliminate cards from the game if those cards no longer reflect their company's values in some way.
02:39:49 <Cale> The fact that Invoke Prejudice had a multiverse ID of 1488 is pretty suspicious.
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02:47:14 <zzo38> :It is probably just a coincidence. But it doesn't matter. They shouldn't change the past. They can change the future instead, I think. If they no longer like those cards, then they should not longer print them.
02:49:15 <Cale> I'm not sure this counts as changing the past
02:49:34 <zzo38> If you don't like the number 13, 666, 1488, 1984, or whatever, that is too bad, because in a list of consecutively numbered items (or pages, or cards) with that many or more items, those numbers will be used in their proper place. (I also don't like elevators omitting 13, of course.)
02:51:30 <Cale> Yeah, but when a racially-charged card whose image depicts pointy-hooded figures just happens to get a number by which a white supremacist slogan are identified, that's a hell of a coincidence.
02:52:16 <Cale> I see it as well within their rights to rearrange all the card IDs as much as they want
02:52:42 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is a hell of a coincidence. But I think that rearranging multiverse IDs (regardless of why) is problematic.
02:53:14 <zzo38> Among other things, it goes against the W3C's policy, I think.
02:53:49 <Cale> I mean, it affects some URLs, but despite the W3C's wishes, URLs rarely stay the same for very long.
02:54:31 <Cale> It's probably best that no other card take the place of that one, just to avoid confusion
02:54:42 <Cale> I don't know why they bothered assigning it a new ID actually
02:55:47 <Cale> I guess because they get to post the message that it's banned from tournament play etc. that way
02:57:06 <zzo38> Yes, it is best that no other card (or other printing of the same card in a different set, which fortunately there isn't any) takes that multiverse ID.
02:58:17 <Cale> But if you look at, say, Hearthstone -- it hasn't had to deal with this particular problem, but cards are revised all the time in that game, and people's collections are forcibly updated along with it.
02:58:43 <zzo38> I think Hearthstone is quite a different problem entirely.
02:58:45 <Cale> Of course, they try not to do it too much, but it still seems a reasonable thing to do
02:59:04 <Cale> It's a bit different because there aren't physical bits of cardboard in the world
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03:00:29 <zzo38> Yes, but it can still be a problem, and a different one. You might want to use old rules, you might not like their software, etc. Actually, Magic: the Gathering also has the problem of old versions of the rules and Oracle texts not properly being archived, I think.
03:01:35 <zzo38> What ais523 did seems reasonable though: The primary key of a card definition is the name and version together, rather than only the name. That partially avoids the problem in Hearthstone, at least.
03:02:07 <ais523> I don't think I did that?
03:02:20 <zzo38> Of course, it is too late to change it now in either Magic: the Gathering or in Hearthstone, I think.
03:02:30 <ais523> name+version is the normal primary key in M:tG databases, though (except for Oracle-alikes)
03:03:23 <Cale> As I see it, there's no responsibility for the maker of a game to continue to support any part of it, or maintain historical information for themselves if they want to make changes. Obviously, people who are interested in the history of the game can maintain that information.
03:03:25 <zzo38> ais523: You did; I have the document you wrote on my computer.
03:03:52 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I maintain history of the rules as far back as possible. Rule history and Oracle history are very important for puzzles.
03:04:08 <ais523> zzo38: oh, you mean not for M:tG
03:04:33 <ais523> that was a bit different because version numbers are part of the card, the intention was that reprinting a card would use the same version number, but a different number could be used for, e.g., balance fixes
03:05:01 <ais523> zzo38: are there any puzzles that require using multiple different sets of rules over the course of the puzzle?
03:05:26 <zzo38> You may be right about other M:tG databases, but I don't really know. I think the artwork should remain archived, even if they would never be reprinted.
03:06:26 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know of any such puzzles, and most puzzles I know of don't specify a rules datestamp at all (except my own, to avoid this kind of problem).
03:07:22 <zzo38> What you say about version numbers, I know what you are saying, and it makes sense, but I meant as an alternative to what is probably being done in Hearthstone (at least, what I have heard; I think my brother plays), and not about Magic: the Gathering.
03:10:07 <ais523> I'm generally in favour of old versions / rules engines / patches of computer games being available in case they're superior to the current version (or more interesting in some other way), or just for historical interest
03:10:30 <ais523> this is one of the reasons I dislike "inherently online" games because they often have no way to play an old version
03:10:39 <zzo38> Yes, I agree with that.
03:11:01 <Cale> Yeah, all else being equal, that's preferable
03:14:57 <Cale> Chess 1.2 Patch Notes: * Fixed a bug introduced with faster pawns in 1.1 where pawns would sometimes capture a piece on different square from the one where they were going. * Fixed a bug where castling sometimes wouldn't work when unrelated back-rank squares were under attack. * We're aware of the bugs where pawns can't capture the piece that's in front of them, and can't move diagonally in cases where they're not
03:14:58 <Cale> capturing a piece, and are working on fixes - stay tuned in the next patch.
03:16:09 <zzo38> (There are other reasons to dislike "inherently online" games too; the reason you specify is only one of the reasons.)
03:23:59 <zzo38> Does anyone still maintain the old Oracle texts and artwork? Does anyone maintain even changes to multiverse ID numbers if needed? What about rule changes? I think Yawgatog used to do some of these, but no longer does. I have a directory on my computer of all versions of the rules since 2007-05-01, but I am interested in older rules too, because there are puzzles older than that.
03:32:02 <zzo38> I reconstructed an old puzzle from the solution, but it doesn't work with modern rules.
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08:06:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73558&oldid=73525 * Chris Pressey * (-6) "natural language" is common and accepted terminology
08:09:12 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73559&oldid=68129 * Chris Pressey * (-6) Rewrite for clarity
08:13:49 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73560&oldid=73559 * Chris Pressey * (+124) More clarify contents of category as they currently are
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08:21:59 <esowiki> [[SMETANA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73561&oldid=65621 * Chris Pressey * (+27) +cat
08:56:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73562 * D * (+265) Created page with "== An example program please? == This language indeed made me laugh. But I could never understand anything without examples, care to program an example of Hello World, for exa..."
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09:19:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73564&oldid=34908 * Chris Pressey * (+694) Continue a conversation from 8 years ago, why not
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09:23:30 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73565&oldid=71743 * Chris Pressey * (+4) +link
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09:33:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73566&oldid=73562 * Chris Pressey * (+371)
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10:34:12 <cpressey> Suppose R0, R1, R2... Rn are rewrite rules (each one has the form Pn -> Sn where Pn is the pattern and Sn is the substitution). Now suppose Rn + Rm means: if Pn matches you apply Rn, if Pm matches you apply Rm. And suppose Rn * Rm means: if both Pn and Pm match you apply both Rn and Rm.
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10:39:19 <cpressey> There are obviously overlaps there that you'd want to deal with, i.e. in both + and *, what if both Pn and Pm match?
10:40:18 <cpressey> But, assuming you took care of that, it seems like it would be a nice system to work with.
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10:47:51 <cpressey> int-e: You know something about rewriting, have you ever seen something like that, does it have a name?
10:58:44 <cpressey> Obviously, | and & might be more evocative symbols for those operators, than + and *
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12:24:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73572&oldid=73551 * JensBouman * (+191) /* Introductions */
12:29:36 <esowiki> [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73573&oldid=50453 * JensBouman * (+139) /* External resources */
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12:43:26 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73574&oldid=73565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Command language */
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13:27:54 <int-e> cpressey: Sounds a bit odd, mainly because we're usually operating on trees so a global conjunction usually isn't very meaningful. There are various forms of conditional rewriting which can potentially test applicability of rules wrt. the redex at hand...
13:28:19 <int-e> cpressey: the disjunction of course is the default mode of operations--pick any applicable rule and apply it.
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13:37:06 <cpressey> int-e: Thanks. It intrigues me. I may play with it a bit, see how oddly it turns out.
13:39:14 <int-e> Another thing that I've seen is a maximal multistep, in which one picks a maximal set of non-overlapping redexes in a term, and contracts them simultaneously.
13:40:00 <int-e> So that's a kind of conjunction. But people usually do this with orthogonal systems (which make the maximal multistep unique...)
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14:45:07 <esowiki> [[Help, WarDoq!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73598&oldid=53188 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implementation */ cat
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16:05:40 <fizzie> "NaN.aN" is a nice number.
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16:14:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: Yawgatog still has the old rules diffs, they go back a few years before 2007, but for rules older than that, I've no idea.
16:16:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: did Scryfall have these large downloadable files https://scryfall.com/docs/api/bulk-data the last time we looked, or did it only have the more interactive API?
16:22:46 <b_jonas> "Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. ... They say it is because those cards are racist." wait what? do you have a link?
16:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I do, and I think that it is a misapplication of anti-racism. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/depictions-racism-magic-2020-06-10
16:25:34 <zzo38> (Misapplication of anti-racism and anti-[other bad stuff too] seems to be too common.)
16:27:32 <b_jonas> including Crusade?
16:28:09 <b_jonas> that's rather ridiculous
16:29:01 <b_jonas> so those are more racist than Eyeblight's Ending?
16:31:33 <b_jonas> nice, they ban Cleanse, but not Virtue's Ruin because nobody cares about Portal
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16:39:39 <zzo38> People have made these same complaints, although my own complaints are different. They should not ban those cards in Vintage, and otherwise the cards should be banned only due to the game balance purposes (or because some of the cards are rare and they are playing Pauper format, which forbids rare cards). And they should never change Multiverse ID numbers.
16:39:52 <zzo38> The damage has been done, but trying to undo those changes might make it worse.
16:41:52 <zzo38> (Removing the card images is probably the least bad thing, since the Oracle text and rulings are still there and you can probably find the pictures elsewhere anyways.)
16:42:47 <b_jonas> "the artwork should remain archived" => Gatherer is missing so many card versions that it hardly matters if they lose the images of a few more, it's just that announcing this selection of cards as banned was probably a bad decision for htem
16:43:53 <b_jonas> as for Multiverse ids, I don't really trust those as being constant. haven't the ids changed when they replaced Gatherer with New Gatherer, and before that when they introduced Gatherer? hmm, I'll have to look up one of my old Oracle dumps
16:43:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is true; Gatherer is missing so many card versions, which of course is a different problem, but others archive them anyways.
16:44:40 <zzo38> I don't know, although I seem to remember changing some links to the old card database with a new link, and the old ID numbers continuing to work.
16:46:14 <b_jonas> hmm no, the multiverse ids were in the old Gatherer pages too
16:46:20 <b_jonas> so they probably haven't changed
16:46:54 <b_jonas> "others archive them anyways." => no, there's only one group that archives them, it's Scryfall, and it's quite possible that even they missed something
16:47:13 <b_jonas> and/or that they will just give up and won't be able to continue the work from their income
16:47:29 <zzo38> O, OK, but if they did miss something, I should think that you should notify them of anything that they have missed.
16:47:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: if they did miss something, it'd be an obscure card I've never heard about
16:49:46 <zzo38> O, OK.
16:50:21 <b_jonas> I did notify them about interface problems, as opposed to missing cards
16:51:31 <b_jonas> they are connected with multiple large card market websites, so any card that's on sale somewhere will be in their database (possibly after some processing delay)
16:51:42 <b_jonas> on sale as a single that is
16:51:57 <b_jonas> they can't guess what's in booster packs sold unclosed
16:52:17 <b_jonas> and a card version has to be really obscure to not exist on sale
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