< 1596672030 462942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are nice company, I don't have any problem with them, I only have a problem with *me* going into a cave < 1596672035 243093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at school, we got taught things like mnemonics for what order the colors in the rainbow were in < 1596672051 44331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't very useful because people aren't taught basic things like what colours indigo and violet actually are < 1596672071 626608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(violet is especially problematic because most computer screens are incapable of showing it accurately, and most printers are incapable of printing it accurately) < 1596672095 56877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arcorann: yes, because just like me, Hagrid knows that that nomenclature doesn't matter for anything he does and so doesn't try to remember it. he's not a school age child anymore, having to learn thousands of useless facts to get a good grade, nor a lawyer or doctor < 1596672138 730685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think one reason they teach what they do in school is that it is hard to know in advance which facts will be useful < 1596672152 204353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're also incapable of showing or printing just about any pure one-wavelength light color < 1596672177 307208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably make a laser monitor that can show a few of them, but not all < 1596672181 825942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1596672184 964481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be horribly impractical < 1596672203 908923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: then again our perception of colors is very limited too < 1596672205 476883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, colours outside the red-blue range seem like they're a bigger problem to show than colours inside but not matching your pixel colour < 1596672213 363316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you can interpolate for colours in range < 1596672226 778825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, although there are very good reasons for why they're limited < 1596672284 400830 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I imagine you could make some sort of a refraction-based monitor that could do arbitrary wavelengths by having a mask in-between prisms or something for the color, and then something DLP-style to do the image. < 1596672315 714050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what color we'd get if something would trigger only one of the green or orange receptors in the eye. (M and L types here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space) < 1596672316 834243 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a particularly bright one, but still. < 1596672345 457996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: specifically you can't see infrared light because your body at your eye emits them as thermal radiation and the light emitted by your body that reaches your eyes will drown out any useful signal from the outside < 1596672350 586254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can see something like that by looking at something intensely purple for a long time so that the red and blue receptors run out of neurotransmitter < 1596672359 882679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then looking at something green < 1596672361 258297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this would require something special... probably a laser aimed at individual cone cells) < 1596672375 914461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1596672381 139506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting idea < 1596672420 137655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done that experiment with orange, the resulting colour just looks orange, but is perceived as "more orange" than an orange thing nearby (viewed by receptors with a normal neurotransmitter supply) < 1596672424 631373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: one of those impossible colors that you can only see as an afterimage, green or yellow that is purer than the green or yellow of a single frequency light < 1596672446 464131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, what ais523 says < 1596672486 577471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you can do more easily is to see objects that are brighter than pure white is: < 1596672493 828649 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, someone's done something a little like that, except (of course) with a diffraction grating rather than a prism. < 1596672505 751142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I learned recently is that we actually know what colours colorblind people see, at least for protanopia and deuteranopia < 1596672509 468853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Agile Spectrum Imaging: Programmable Wavelength Modulation for Cameras and Projectors" < 1596672528 807007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are some people who are colourblind in only one eye, and they can use one eye to learn what colours are named and the other eye to view them colorblindly < 1596672534 944260 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We use a diffraction grating to disperse the rays into different colors, and introduce a mask (or LCD/DMD) in the optical path to modulate the spectrum." < 1596672542 411993 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we do get pretty pure red and pure blue, so the middle range (closer to orange than to green? maybe.) is indeed the interesting one. < 1596672564 64080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why non-black washing detergents have a pigment-thingy that remains on the clothes and converts incoming ultraviolet light to visible light, fluorescent or something, so ideally those clothes can be brighter than white, though usually they're just brighter than before but still darker than white, < 1596672578 140222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest way to see actually brighter than white is car registration plates with a white background < 1596672586 203953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if they're not dirty < 1596672591 746365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, converting UV to visible light is known as fluorescence < 1596672622 177090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I didn't think registration plates fluoresced, they're just reflective < 1596672636 95316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :road signs in the UK are retroreflective, they reflect in a directed way along the path the light came from < 1596672645 66604 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/hyperspectral-image-projector-hip well maybe it's not quite ready for consumer use yet < 1596672652 52141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that they're visible in low illumination as long as you're standing next to the source of illumination < 1596672655 824757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're always dirty by the way, because it's not worth for anyone to clean it, but part of the reason for the fluorescent paint is that it makes the dirty license plate more visible in infrared photos < 1596672673 741354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like this, I probably got some important detail wrong < 1596672733 779116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, there are people who are colorblind in only one eye? how is that possible? I thought all forms of human colorblindness were strongly linked to genetics < 1596672754 664721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: some people have two different sets of DNA, that might be the cause < 1596672788 296172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but that's very rare in humans that survive infanthood I think < 1596672790 830763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're only meant to inherit half a set of DNA from each parent, but sometimes that mechanism goes wrong < 1596672804 967576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that thing, not chimerism < 1596672836 878968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those can be quite bad, polyploidy stuff, but I don't see how they'd cause different colorblindness in eyes < 1596672869 146888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're not fluorescent? hmm < 1596672876 260550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :chimerism isn't that rare, it seems, at least on small scales < 1596672882 975681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: road signs are retroreflective, that's true < 1596672906 842706 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but roads signs isn't the same as car registration plates: car reg plates are in a place that gets dirty much more easily < 1596672908 245861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it's quite common for fraternal twins to belong to multiple blood groups simultaneously as a consequence of small-scale chimerism < 1596672920 359644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nice < 1596672946 609434 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"maybe it's not quite ready for consumer use yet" => I don't think that will become practical any time soon; < 1596672987 429491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were printers on sale to consumers that used six colors + black rather than three colors + black < 1596672995 726959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if anyone bought them, but I saw them advertised < 1596673010 958022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although of course, that won't get you a full spectral range (especially as it would be hard to make appropriate ink) < 1596673037 178348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I would be happy if there were color consumer cameras with more than three color channels. technically there are a few with four channels, but they're rare and just optimized to give a better RGB picture output, though you can probably get a raw image from them; plus there are cameras that have a built-in motor to insert or remove the infrared filter < 1596673052 117577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: blood groups sure, but blood groups is different < 1596673078 589888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :full chimerism seems to be rare, or at least rarely confirmed; however, it also typically has no visible symptoms, or symptoms easily mistaken for other things < 1596673093 60683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's likely to usually go undetected < 1596673095 637504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: printers => interesting, though I'd be specifically more interested in cameras rather than displays or printers for this < 1596673104 284952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see < 1596673114 802439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think printers sold specifically as "photo printers" still use multiple inks. < 1596673121 224919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I'm not a doctor or a biologist, so anything I say about those is often wrong < 1596673146 267196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especialyl anything I say two hours after I should have gone to bed, curse you #esoteric < 1596673167 670149 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_vapor_process is something old that fits into this niche < 1596673174 987714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, I think some use magenta, light magenta, blue, light blue, yellow, black < 1596673177 141665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a completely different reason) > 1596673194 809710 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76464&oldid=76345 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-21) 10not a language < 1596673206 451808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh yeah, I think that came up in the last two #esoteric discussion about this > 1596673214 502680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turinf machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76465&oldid=76308 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+11) 10it's not a programming language if it doesn't have syntax < 1596673221 65447 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epson's page managed to crash all of Chrome somehow (shouldn't happen, should file a bug), but I can still see the blurb about "enhanced level of quality produced by its 6-colour inks". < 1596673266 640449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I learned about this from a making of video of The Birds) < 1596673272 598320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well sure, they must say "enchanced level of quality" or something vague and hard to disprove if they want to sell you a printer for which it's harder to find third-party ink cartridges < 1596673310 248937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the other trick of putting electronics with a usage counter in ink cartridges such that the printer refuses to use refilled cartridge is much more effective and dirtier < 1596673312 410379 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Epson's pretty good with inks, actually. Maybe not the photo ones, but in general I got the impression they haven't been doing as much copyright misuse and so on to control the ink markets. < 1596673344 78440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone optimized a break for the electronic ink cartridge thing yet, and if that's legal < 1596673344 901608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I may not be remembering the right manufacturer though.) < 1596673354 616816 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I wonder if there's some way of figuring out which Chrome process would be good to kill without being able to bring up the Chrome task manager.) < 1596673372 545570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what's a "right manufacturer" :-) < 1596673394 558996 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A manufacturer of rights. < 1596673416 90587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that goes without saying. < 1596673501 213127 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sony made a couple of those RGBE color filter cameras (red, green, blue, "emerald") with four primaries. < 1596673524 114116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Emerald" is a more marketing-friendly way of saying "cyan". < 1596673532 625436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :emerald doesn't look anything like cyan though < 1596673572 759834 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well. < 1596673588 966842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1471104084/sonyrgbeccd < 1596673593 282277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just imagine if Canon or Nikon made cameras that check the signature of the lens and deliberately dumb themselves down on any lens whose manufacturer doesn't pay a license fee for that. I think the first one of the two that does instantly lose their market share to the other < 1596673620 946339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The Bornat book's approach looks pretty complicated. < 1596673644 157422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it covers lots of different approaches < 1596673673 604437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas some printer manufacturer can do this for cartridges, and Intel can have a cpu library that deliberately pessimizes operations on AMD x86 cpus such that if you just patch all those checks out you instantly get much better performance < 1596673710 210740 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much should I know about parsers? < 1596673733 344230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rather depends on how much you need to know about parsers < 1596673744 232509 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite that their architecture reference manual spends a lot of words explaining how you should detect cpu features, and that you should never try to guess them from the cpu type or brand, which btw has very good reasons, and yet their own libraries don't folow that < 1596673746 150477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're writing a parser generator, for example, you would need to know quite a lot < 1596673761 923505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say I know what LL(k) is. Should I know about LR, LALR, GLR, and all those things? < 1596673782 325834 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BLARG parser gives up as soon as it encounters any error. < 1596673784 802126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's useful to know what LALR(1) is capable of doing, because that's what most parser generators use in practice < 1596673801 228228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I know about packrat, earley, cyk, and so on? < 1596673802 354953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing the fine distinctions between the various categories isn't much use unless you're writing a parser generator, though < 1596673805 352959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: those four colors aren't really colors, they're filters where the full spectrum matters, so you can't really name them with human color names like red green blue accurately anyway < 1596673814 744983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like the cone cells < 1596673824 355859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you'd need to give a graph of the frequency response < 1596673829 957075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're dual spectrums < 1596673841 957268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably I should just know all of these things and be a turbo-expert. < 1596673852 534166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"red", "green", "blue" are good names for cone cells because different people have slightly different cone cells anyway, so vague names are good for lumping them into vague groups < 1596673855 282767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual in the linear algebra sense of course < 1596673902 283902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: blue sure, but I don't think red and green are. < 1596673910 786361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for camera filters red green blue is better < 1596673975 617878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GLR is cheating because it's fully general but nondeterministic, so the performance gets bad in situations where the generality is needed < 1596674030 109448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you should probably know about LR(k), at least at the level of detail of how it differs from LL(k), not necessarily to how it differs from LALR(k) < 1596674063 926876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LALR(k) is a mild optimisation of LR(k) that sometimes introduces ambiguities but normally only in really contrived situations < 1596674068 122147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because there are grammars that are LALR(1) but not LL(1) that you will meet often < 1596674096 249831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so LR(k) is more powerful than LALR(k) but not in any way that's likely to matter in practice < 1596674120 500550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas LR(k) versus LL(k) does matter < 1596674126 37316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in practice < 1596674134 583416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, LR(1) is much more powerful than LL(1) < 1596674143 35329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and so does LL(k) versus regular grammar obviously)( < 1596674182 505281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think LR(k) is intermediate in power between a deterministic push-down automaton and a nondeterministic push-down automaton, isn't it? < 1596674188 741950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure on that < 1596674223 92081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't have a good idea of what extra power you get from a nondeterministic push-down automaton, either. > 1596674234 165213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turinf machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76466&oldid=76465 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+580) 10Added formal syntax < 1596674247 403629 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess quite a lot? < 1596674266 401278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: er... not technically, because you could cheat to convert an LR(k) parser to a push-down automaton by rolling a window of k symbols that the LR parser peeke < 1596674275 53449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :peeks into the state of the automaton < 1596674297 506096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that converts LR(k) to LR(1) < 1596674298 545983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you get a deterministic push-down automaton > 1596674299 825371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76467&oldid=76464 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+21) 10Undo revision 76464 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]]) - Added formal syntax so it is a language now < 1596674310 949063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ah right, LR(1) does compile into a deterministic PDA < 1596674314 533564 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it? hmm < 1596674327 938577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that basically what yacc/ayacc do? < 1596674334 749516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you also need to roll the top m elements of the stack into the state where m is the longest rule you have < 1596674340 49450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the legnth of the longest rule you have < 1596674352 683901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your basic operations are shift (push), reduce (pop+branch), and reading input < 1596674386 387028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you can't do that, because a reduce could cause deeper elements to become shallower < 1596674395 302639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you could probably simulate it by popping all the elements and then pushing them back < 1596674400 210258 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but the control is also important: LR can look at multiple elements on top of its stack > 1596674407 503313 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turinf machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76468&oldid=76466 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+14) 10 < 1596674416 131472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1596674418 674155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno then < 1596674421 259472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no it can't, the only time it reads the stack is to read its top element < 1596674429 427153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, it has a state for that < 1596674432 993535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry I'm stupid and tired < 1596674439 518077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just go to bed, good nigth < 1596674442 874035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1596674450 732280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stayed up too long last night reading about cryptography < 1596674469 355171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and https://noiseprotocol.org/ btw which I recommend looking at < 1596674475 850115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-193.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1596674564 431871 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1596674686 870741 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1596675645 292746 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596675766 889633 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1596676513 961443 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1596676550 963074 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1596677579 893547 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of trying to use copyright to control what people do with technology, ran across Apple's "our hard work / by these words guarded / please don't steal" copyright haiku the other day. < 1596677663 27180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than having a confusing name, the Boyer-Moore majority algorithm is pretty neat and does something that doesn't seem possible at first. < 1596677691 951151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Find the majority element in a stream using constant space.) < 1596677781 523048 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric : Clever. < 1596677797 185701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "majority" strictly means "more than half" < 1596677811 328422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's unsolvable < 1596677860 883735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1596677868 39076 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can do "strictly more than 1/k" for any k. < 1596677912 48284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in O(k) space < 1596678006 753130 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1596678141 959925 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76469&oldid=72180 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+159) 10AAA < 1596678518 253099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1596679696 854075 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1596680246 770522 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1596682672 506359 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c JOIN :#esoteric < 1596682971 473141 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1596683879 978442 :salpynx!794954f8@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1596685739 492762 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596685835 2489 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1596685835 148587 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1596685846 315018 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596686506 760133 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1596686596 142183 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596686842 671223 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1596687119 177643 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596687459 336905 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1596687892 196116 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596689164 513734 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c JOIN :#esoteric < 1596689469 481484 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1596689703 790614 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrxghrzgdysdgidn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1596690700 531456 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at Boyer-Moore in Wikipedia, and it requires to rewind the data to read it again a second time, which depending on how the data is read, may require more space. (But, if you know how many different kind of items there are, it is possible to make a list indexed by that too, I suppose) < 1596690768 734176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It requires a rewind if you're not sure there's a majority element. < 1596690820 745024 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, yes. If you don't care what the answer is if there is no majority (such as because you know there is a majority), then you do not need to rewind it. < 1596690888 577446 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I forgot that, but, yes you are correct) < 1596692324 632123 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1596692628 698409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Introduction to esolang design14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76470&oldid=44838 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+359) 10/* Methods of Design */ < 1596692708 682678 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1596693851 972175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Bangyen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76471&oldid=76327 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+140) 10/* Implementations */ < 1596695651 506338 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c JOIN :#esoteric < 1596695922 485050 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:697e:3b92:3177:f81c QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1596697273 531122 :grumble!~Thunderbi@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: Thanks for coming to or show and being an amazing audience. We have been Look Ma We Made A Band. < 1596697341 535229 :grumble!~Thunderbi@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1596698940 787824 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1596700488 635772 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596701318 382029 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1596701443 792090 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596702468 773048 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1596703787 701771 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596705332 40206 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1596708220 567475 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:a9bf:14f5:d68:131c JOIN :#esoteric < 1596709174 777139 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596709485 225035 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know about this Boyer-Moore thing, interesting < 1596709733 774279 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprised Wikipedia doesn't have a "List of algorithms with ambiguous names" page. < 1596709976 747578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, do they do that? Seems kind of meta... < 1596709997 266712 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hehe < 1596710014 693954 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many Euler's algorithms and Gauss's algorithms are < 1596710074 2486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I would expect is a disambiguation page for "boyer-moore" algorithm, or at least cross links between the two (or maybe there are others?) < 1596713335 172655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is such a page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer%E2%80%93Moore < 1596713424 380005 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was told it is pretty common in bioinformatics to just ask a friend you didn't published with yet to be a co-author to make names less ambiguous < 1596719985 134044 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596721205 852916 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1596721244 956948 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric > 1596721603 646729 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Turinf machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76472 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+1249) 10Turinf machines are Turing-complete < 1596722518 674350 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:a9bf:14f5:d68:131c QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1596723912 365072 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hanzlu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76473&oldid=76430 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+58) 10 > 1596723919 370385 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Hanzlu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76474&oldid=76473 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+105) 10 < 1596724542 814147 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1596724686 703368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so... what's missing then are the links back to the disambiguation page. Do I care enough... probably not. < 1596724863 513502 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But thanks for pointing it out :) < 1596724952 22643 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: hmm, does that conflict with http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=562 the convention where they just include everyone in the lab as an author? < 1596726667 279600 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a person who was the non-first author in 4 out of the 9 publications making up their thesis, I'm happy about these conventions. > 1596726684 283893 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turinf machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76475&oldid=76468 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10Reword the specification to make it more clear; add missing halting states syntax > 1596726689 305659 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Turinf machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76476&oldid=76472 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1147) 10 < 1596727490 892425 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed > 1596728150 690945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07UM814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76477&oldid=75350 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+11) 10/* Implementations */ fixed link > 1596728328 382562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07UM814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76478&oldid=76477 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+1) 10https < 1596728489 936449 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596728721 370794 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1596728809 176310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76479&oldid=75563 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+129) 10/* Example programs */ added truth machine > 1596728850 772456 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76480&oldid=76479 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+27) 10/* Truth machine */ < 1596728945 425964 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596729098 7702 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1596729116 963154 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1596729218 962633 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1596729408 746166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ARCAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76481&oldid=25344 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+127) 10/* External resources */ fixed link < 1596729894 709732 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1596731083 791328 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596731084 709545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1596731353 837612 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1596735451 905083 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1596735743 808620 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596736445 829800 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1596737543 802653 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1596738663 829704 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1596738740 425544 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Client Quit < 1596740744 63579 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1596740791 275202 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596742038 506526 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-elwptpdnebmkvtap JOIN :#esoteric < 1596742491 289188 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596744882 166664 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1596746656 914378 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric > 1596747924 472193 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Bangyen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76482&oldid=76471 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+26) 10/* Implementations */ > 1596747970 875659 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Number Seventy-Four14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76483&oldid=75463 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+101) 10 < 1596748837 720029 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1596753016 8515 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596753465 152087 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1596753847 864718 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1596756035 503564 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:58f3:f67:91a3:9275 JOIN :#esoteric < 1596756188 916683 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1596756349 422199 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:58f3:f67:91a3:9275 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1596758157 471150 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:58f3:f67:91a3:9275 JOIN :#esoteric