←2020-08-17 2020-08-18 2020-08-19→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:16:58 -!- arseniiv has joined.
00:21:10 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:25:01 -!- adu has joined.
02:17:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:25:26 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:26:35 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:26:46 -!- HackEso has joined.
03:29:23 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:29:25 -!- wmww has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:36:58 -!- tswett[m] has joined.
04:10:27 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
04:12:06 -!- wmww has joined.
04:23:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
04:24:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:25:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
04:48:09 -!- xelxebar has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer).
04:48:09 -!- hendursaga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:51:29 -!- xelxebar has joined.
04:59:35 -!- hendursaga has joined.
05:23:56 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:59:34 -!- xelxebar has quit (Write error: Broken pipe).
05:59:34 -!- hendursaga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:02:57 -!- hendursaga has joined.
06:03:02 -!- xelxebar has joined.
06:10:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:12:25 -!- sprocklem has joined.
06:58:33 -!- arseniiv has joined.
07:04:18 -!- tromp has joined.
07:10:01 <arseniiv> hello! Does anybody know a simplistic wiki which uses Markdown, allows math and may well be unversioned? (and maybe even no merge functionality, I plan to use it only myself). And just maybe it also generates/refreshes static HTMLs? That would be optimal. Wait, it could also add Disqus widgets to the bottom of selected pages. Now that’s complete
07:11:14 <arseniiv> I’m well afraid I’ll need to write that myself. That would be a simple and good Python ecosystem exercise but… laaazy
07:16:12 <zzo38> Maybe describe better what you are trying to make with that?
07:16:39 <zzo38> (Fossil supports Markdown, but not the other stuff you mention.)
07:22:20 <rain1> arseniiv: I use miraheze with <math> tags, prefer $ but i have a userscript to transform
07:22:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:22:44 <rain1> I think tiddlywiki can do mathjax though, which would be nice
07:22:48 <rain1> specially for self hosting
07:23:01 <rain1> http://mathjax-tw5.kantorsite.net/
07:28:05 <zzo38> Some TeX commands I used in math formulas many other systems can't use, so it isn't very good.
07:30:42 <arseniiv> zzo38: just a site with a couple of posts
07:32:20 <zzo38> arseniiv: Then maybe just use a static page generator that can convert Markdown to HTML (and render the math with another program too, I suppose, and then you can include the pictures, with alt text containing the original text), I think.
07:32:40 <zzo38> (If you need discussion forums, I can suggest setting up NNTP)
07:33:14 <arseniiv> rain1: how hard is it to host TiddlyWiki these days? (Without someone else being able to edit it)
07:34:10 <zzo38> I suppose you could password POST and PUT requests in your server configuration, if the software supports writing but you want to restrict it.
07:34:28 <rain1> i think it is just a html file you can save on your computer
07:35:07 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah, I still consider that but I don’t want to sync files to the server. Hmm maybe git pull once a couple of minutes wouldn’t harm the server but I don’t know how to do that yet
07:35:47 <arseniiv> I already have a repo and pandoc here and on the server. That’s cheap for a static site generator but it will do maybe. But a wiki-like thing would be even better still
07:36:48 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, but uploading it to the server each time would be tedious :\
07:36:54 <rain1> what server?
07:37:04 <arseniiv> Some server to host a website
07:37:21 <rain1> oh you want to host it online
07:37:26 <zzo38> If you are only editing it yourself and do not need history, then why do you need a "wiki-like thing"?
07:37:40 <arseniiv> (anyway thanks! Right now I don’t use TW but maybe that plugin would be useful in the future for local notes)
07:37:57 <rain1> i think i don't fully understand what you need
07:38:05 <rain1> I thought this was local notes
07:38:16 <rain1> should it be readable by everyone but writable by you only?
07:38:22 <arseniiv> zzo38: I mean, wiki-like in that it allows you edit it in the browser
07:38:26 <arseniiv> rain1: exactly
07:39:19 <rain1> maybe miraheze has a option for it
07:39:24 <arseniiv> it can be writable by more than one person too, just ones I can keep track of somewhere in the config
07:40:08 <rain1> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:User_rights_and_groups
07:41:26 <arseniiv> miraheze is a good thing too, my friends and me use it for some other notes a bit in a shared wiki, but sometimes it’s slow and has small issues
07:42:39 <rain1> ok
07:42:50 <rain1> github pages could be an option
07:43:04 <rain1> because you can invite people to edit it
07:43:07 <arseniiv> yeah mediawiki (and miraheze also) is a, well, thing, but it would be too big in a sense that it’s far more than needed. Thanks once more though! Maybe I really just need to install it, why not… but…
07:44:37 <arseniiv> and that thing too, yes. Though it requires a public repo. That’s not bad, I just wanted to experiment a bit in a private one, but maybe
07:44:54 <arseniiv> also I think one can write small posts in github gists :D
07:46:14 <arseniiv> hm for early drafts that may even be well enough
07:47:02 <rain1> I like the math.stackexchange editor where you get feedback on the latex
07:50:37 <zzo38> I generally find it suitable and useful to just host plain text files. Better compatibility, faster, etc.
07:51:53 <arseniiv> zzo38: ASCII math is a pain sometimes though :) too much parentheses and less digestable expressions, and sometimes an ambiguous syntax
07:53:28 <zzo38> Yes, although for some things it works (for math, it is not as good as TeX, though, of course)
07:58:13 <rain1> https://bookstore.ams.org/car-36/
08:10:13 -!- hendursa1 has joined.
08:11:45 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:12:39 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed).
08:12:40 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed).
08:12:58 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:22:08 -!- wmww has joined.
08:53:21 <arseniiv> what a book
08:54:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CatLooks * New user account
08:55:39 -!- tswett[m] has joined.
09:01:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76720&oldid=76713 * CatLooks * (+182) /* Introductions */
09:05:27 <esowiki> [[User:CatLooks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76721 * CatLooks * (+135) Created page with "Hi, I'm CatLooks. I like Python. I'll post links to esolangs, that I create. ( It's empty right now :( ) Thanks for visiting my page."
09:07:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:CatLooks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76722 * CatLooks * (+13) Created page with "Talking page."
09:17:51 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:45:14 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 604 seconds).
10:23:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:CatLooks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76723&oldid=76722 * TwilightSparkle * (+124)
11:25:58 -!- mniip has joined.
11:31:11 <fizzie> Hmf. I have a daemon thing written in Go, and I need a way to control it a little (ask for status, force it to perform scheduled tasks right now, that sort of thing). What's the best way to make that happen?
11:31:20 <fizzie> I'm vacillating between (a) a Unix domain control socket (with maybe gRPC on it, if that's kosher) and a corresponding `fooctl` command-line program to complement the `food` (no pun intended), auth handled by filesystem permissions; or (b) a HTTPS server providing a browser-based control surface, with client certificate fingerprints saved in the config file for auth.
11:31:25 <fizzie> But maybe there's something obviously better than either.
11:34:29 <shachaf> Can I recommend not using dbus?
11:35:44 <fizzie> Ooh, I didn't even think of that. Maybe I should use D-Bus?
11:36:31 <shachaf> dbus uses approach a, for what it's worth.
11:37:09 <shachaf> But it sure isn't something I want to use.
11:38:57 <fizzie> I think it haad some sort of custom authentication mechanism on top too.
11:39:28 <shachaf> I think it has multiple authentication methods? But when I actually run a dbus fooctl program it seems to be filesystem-based.
11:40:09 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe not.
11:41:01 <fizzie> Mhm. Well, I've also heard there's a PolicyKit. But I'm not sure I want to get involved with that.
11:41:07 <shachaf> No, it's something more complicated.
11:41:14 <shachaf> Oh well.
11:41:28 <shachaf> I don't actually know a really nice canonical sort of answer to your question.
11:41:48 -!- craigo has joined.
11:42:41 <shachaf> Anyway I should sleepulate.
11:42:47 <fizzie> (Did they pick up the "PolicyKit" "ConsoleKit" etc. naming scheme from NextStep / OS X, which I think has a bunch of Kits?)
11:43:30 <fizzie> Think I'll go bicyclate a little, maybe that'll tell me what to do.
12:07:38 -!- t20kdc has joined.
12:28:38 -!- hendursa1 has quit (Quit: hendursa1).
12:28:54 -!- hendursaga has joined.
12:36:12 -!- TheLie has joined.
13:14:48 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:36:49 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant.
14:14:00 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:19:51 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
14:24:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:24:43 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:49:30 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
15:02:53 -!- tromp has joined.
15:15:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:48:33 -!- arseniiv has joined.
15:58:20 -!- adu has joined.
16:08:44 <wib_jonas> `olist 1211
16:08:46 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1211.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:13:18 <myname> https://pastebin.com/KXuAKfDa actual config file for the game i am implementing
16:20:06 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8).
16:26:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:27:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
16:40:07 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed).
16:47:28 -!- hendursaga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:48:26 -!- hendursaga has joined.
17:18:41 <esowiki> [[Faces]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76724&oldid=76719 * Asra * (+378)
17:46:24 -!- kritixil1 has joined.
17:48:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:12:12 -!- b_jonas has joined.
18:19:15 -!- Melvar has joined.
18:24:49 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Quit: quit).
18:45:17 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76725&oldid=49827 * Nqpz * (-14) Update external source code URLs
18:52:39 <int-e> WTF, seriously? Epic is trying to frame their addition of a new payment option as a "hotfix"?
18:53:25 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76726&oldid=76725 * Nqpz * (+174) Add link to BF-to-HBCHT transpiler
18:53:48 <int-e> https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf starting on page 8, line 23.
18:55:07 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76727&oldid=76726 * Nqpz * (+29) Argue for Turing completeness based on the new BF-to-HBCHT transpiler
18:56:57 <arseniiv> myname: spooky
18:57:06 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76728&oldid=76727 * Nqpz * (+37) Clarify ambigious word use
18:57:09 <myname> arseniiv: how so?
18:57:42 <myname> i got bored of rewriting rendering stuff after getting ideas for rearrangements
18:57:53 <myname> so i basically just parse those directly
18:58:23 <arseniiv> myname: I just didn’t know what word to say :D definitely a good idea
19:01:17 <shachaf> int-e: If they call adding a new character to a game a "hotfix", it seems like a similar degree of change?
19:01:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:01:36 <int-e> shachaf: Sure, that is the argument they're trying to make.
19:01:53 <myname> why is it important if something is a hotfix or not?
19:02:05 <int-e> But this is... they anticipated the need for an alternative payment processor in a market that they *know* has only one payment processor.
19:02:16 <int-e> myname: because hotfixes are an accepted industry practice.
19:02:38 <myname> yeah, so? what difference would a normal feature addition make?
19:02:48 <int-e> So they have by no means circumvented Apple's review process, they're totally innocent and acting in good faith.
19:02:57 <myname> i see
19:03:06 <shachaf> Well, they're arguing that Apple's behavior is illegal, right?
19:03:16 <shachaf> I agree that it's a little silly to add support for payment methods that way.
19:03:42 <myname> shachaf: in that case, i would have tried sueing them _first_ and not after i explicitly work against their policies
19:03:56 <int-e> The thing is, they could make their antitrust case while distributing a perfectly ToS-abiding version of Fortnite... as they've done for year.
19:03:59 <int-e> *s
19:04:03 <shachaf> I don't know what the strategy is.
19:04:10 <shachaf> I hope it works out for them.
19:04:17 <int-e> Of course it wouldn't attract nearly as much attention.
19:04:27 <myname> i am not sure on which side i am
19:04:38 <int-e> Well, this is bullies fighting.
19:04:58 <shachaf> Everything Epic has done with regard to these online stores has seemed positive to me.
19:05:03 <myname> epic in itself is a bit weird
19:05:04 <int-e> With some luck, ordinary developers will get some of the crumbs (better terms for entry into Apple's iOS market.)
19:05:28 <int-e> Epic is a bloodsucking vampire.
19:05:48 <shachaf> How do you figure?
19:06:15 <myname> i remember hearing them putting money in forests and stuff, that's neat, but i hate how aggressive they are with their store
19:06:16 <int-e> It's a big corporation making loads of money, that's basically all the evidence I need :P
19:06:41 <int-e> They think loot boxes, pay to win and all that are great innovations.
19:06:53 <shachaf> Oh, sure.
19:07:01 <shachaf> They have pay to win?
19:07:05 <myname> int-e: do you have sources for that?
19:07:07 <int-e> And I'm sure if I search for 5 minutes I'll find half a dozen stories of developers being treated badly.
19:07:20 <myname> i mean, it's not bathesda or ea we are talking about
19:07:24 <shachaf> I thought it was all skinning.
19:07:33 <myname> fortnite is all skinning, yeah
19:07:35 <shachaf> Which developers? Selling things on Epic Game Store?
19:07:49 <int-e> myname: The Google brief actually has an example for innovation that is a video game where you pay for extra lives seamlessly during gameplay.
19:07:58 <int-e> myname: pay to win in its purest form.
19:08:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:08:17 <myname> fortnite is an interesting phenomenon. it's f2p, you cannot pay for gaming advantages, yet they make plenty of money
19:08:37 <myname> int-e: how so?
19:09:09 <myname> [citation needed]
19:09:29 <shachaf> What Epic has been doing seems pretty pro-developer to me.
19:09:46 <myname> at least above industry average
19:09:56 <myname> (which is pretty low)
19:10:02 <int-e> myname: It is pay to win, it's just that the game isn't obvious. It's about coolness.
19:10:32 <myname> int-e: what gaming advantage can you get with money in an epic game?
19:10:33 <int-e> "I'm an original gamer, I have all the Season 1 goodies"
19:10:43 <shachaf> Are clothing stores also pay to win?
19:10:47 <myname> that's not pay to win
19:10:55 <int-e> myname: As I said, it's not the obvious game.
19:11:08 <shachaf> Seems hard to get that worked up about people playing a game and paying to change their character's appearance.
19:11:31 <int-e> myname: It's about looks, like not sailing in on an umbrella like Mary Poppins.
19:12:30 <myname> int-e: i strongly disagree about that being p2w. you may have some sort of community circlejerking, but i can choose whether or not i participate there and i will have no disadvantage in the main game if i choose not to
19:13:06 <int-e> myname: thank god for not being a teenager
19:13:22 <myname> 21:10:43 <shachaf> Are clothing stores also pay to win?
19:13:24 <myname> ^
19:14:18 <b_jonas> "an example for innovation that is a video game where you pay for extra lives seamlessly during gameplay" => how is that innovation? didn't many of the earliest arcade and pinball games do that?
19:14:39 <int-e> b_jonas: you have to ask Epic and their lawyers
19:17:27 <int-e> Anyway, I want Epic to prevail on their antitrust claims. I don't care about the Fortnite sideshow. I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to force Epic to adhere to Apple's ToS for the time being (meaning adhering to the requirement of using Apple's payment processor) and then wait for the antitrust case to settle.
19:17:54 <shachaf> Imagine if they actually succeed at their stated goal of reducing game store fees from 30% to 12%.
19:18:16 <shachaf> And also at breaking Steam's monopoly.
19:18:23 <myname> i wonder if google has it easier as you can pretty easily install third party apps on android
19:19:05 <myname> i'd like them to break steam's monopoly without actually breaking steam, pretty please
19:19:27 <b_jonas> myname: is it easier to install third party apps on android than to install third party apps on apple?
19:19:54 <myname> b_jonas: you can toggle a setting in android and can install downloaded apks
19:20:00 <int-e> myname: Maybe. Their main complaint against Google is actually that they enter agreements with OEMs that mandate having Google Play displayed prominently and prevents OEMs from having alternative stores preinstalled (with the exception of Samsung's Galaxy, which is a case where the OEM has their own store)>
19:20:03 <myname> on ios, you need to jailbreak
19:20:38 <int-e> myname: And sideloading is just to scary for most users, says Epic.
19:21:13 <int-e> And they cite the European Commission who found that Google Play has a 90% market share worldwide in the Android app market.
19:21:36 <myname> well, what is their idea on how the play store gets financed?
19:22:20 <int-e> Epic, for the time being, thinks a 12% share is enough to finance a store.
19:22:42 <myname> and they would remove their own payment option then?
19:22:45 <myname> seems fair
19:22:45 <int-e> And they do mention that they would establish their own Android and iOS stores, given the chance.
19:22:53 <int-e> myname: No they wouldn't.
19:23:06 <int-e> Fortnite *is* a sideshow here.
19:23:07 <myname> they already do have their own stores
19:23:32 <int-e> Reading between the lines they really want their own store, on all platforms.
19:23:32 <myname> i wanted to play an epic game for android and needed to install their store
19:23:39 <b_jonas> myname: hmm, but isn't apple trying to jail software to hardware in the other direction instead, as in, ensuring that their OS and programs can only be ran on hardware that they sell, as opposed to android and windows, for which third party companies are allowed to make and sell hardware
19:24:21 <int-e> myname: And btw, if Apple has problems with making profit from free to play games... I'm sure they can come up with a payment model for those that works independently of in game payments.
19:24:25 <myname> b_jonas: both
19:24:53 <b_jonas> not that it's *easy* to make hardware for android in practice, mind you
19:24:53 <myname> int-e: like the game pass?
19:25:19 <int-e> myname: Like charging the developer for every sold copy and every shipped update.
19:25:25 <int-e> "sold"
19:25:36 <int-e> I guess "every download" sums it up better.
19:25:50 <myname> it's interesting to watch how apple and google basically try to make the same thing with their passes yet they have significant differences
19:26:26 <myname> int-e: charging for every download if you have no other choice will lead to another lawsuit, i guess
19:26:53 <int-e> myname: Not really, not if the fees are "reasonable" by a pretty broad standard.
19:27:16 <myname> i would feel pretty blocked out if i am not allowed to offer a game that makes me no money without having to pay regularly
19:27:30 <int-e> It'll be the same lawsuit, which, again, is about opening up the market to alternative stores, not really about Fortnite.
19:27:34 <myname> if you have ads in the game, sure, apple can get their share
19:28:30 <int-e> myname: I'm sure stores can distinguish between commercial games (with in game revenue stream) and non-commercial ones if they like.
19:28:48 * int-e shrugs.
19:28:55 <myname> at least if they adhere to the tos, yeah
19:29:07 <int-e> Actually we have too many things going on in this discussion, it's getting confusing.
19:29:10 <myname> the play store lists if an app contains IAP or ads
20:23:46 <arseniiv> do you like The Corrs’ “Runaway” composition-wise/sound-wise?
20:59:59 -!- imode has joined.
21:13:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:35:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:43:17 -!- tromp has joined.
21:45:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:CatLooks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76729&oldid=76723 * OsmineYT * (+90)
21:48:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:CatLooks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76730&oldid=76729 * OsmineYT * (+36)
21:48:43 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76731&oldid=71315 * OsmineYT * (+0)
21:51:22 <esowiki> [[User:A/ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76732 * OsmineYT * (+95) Created page with "you found it the r
22:07:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:55:46 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:01:53 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:02:26 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:48 -!- Arcorann has joined.
23:02:59 <b_jonas> supposing I want to display three values whose meaning is mostly self-explanatory, but then also want to display the three keys for them (as in what they are values for), and I want to put the values first and in a particular order to make this more informative in case the display is truncated (and possibly scrollable), what punctuation would I put around and between the keys for that? would it be like
23:03:06 <b_jonas> "valueA, valueB, valueC (keyA, keyB, keyC)"?
23:03:56 <b_jonas> by mostly self-explanatory I mean eg. valueA is a timestamp, and you can guess that it's a timestamp because it's formatted like a timestamp, and you can guess what it is timestamp for because that's what makes sense in context.
23:30:23 <zzo38> I think it depends on the program and other stuff
←2020-08-17 2020-08-18 2020-08-19→ ↑2020 ↑all