> 1598659287 461272 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77019&oldid=77018 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (-138) 10
> 1598659316 686039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:1CP=1ICL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77020 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+108) 10Created page with "dont be soundofspouting ~~~~"
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> 1598664765 162683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:1CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77021&oldid=77020 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+124) 10* do
> 1598665316 743428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77022&oldid=77019 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+150) 10
> 1598665382 813626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77023&oldid=77022 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+3) 10
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< 1598668935 303965 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generic data structures in Zig are just compile-time functions, and I think my brain broke
< 1598669900 286120 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1598675769 378385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: whoa, what's going on in SATland?
< 1598675839 312046 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: huh?
< 1598675847 52297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember what I last said about my solver. I added (very simple) clause deletion, and Luby restarts, and it actually became reasonably fast on some inputs.
< 1598675886 992794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds like your solver is way fancier and also world-famous now.
< 1598675943 407747 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not famous at all, it's good enough to be practically useful but it's not state of the art stuff
< 1598675967 699105 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a somewhat well known rust person started using it (for some not (yet?) public project)
< 1598676005 555866 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that person seems to have quite a few followers on github, so now the traffic on my project suddenly increased
< 1598676129 166419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1598676252 835799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get back to working on it.
< 1598676263 142150 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I...
< 1598676275 414563 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I want to rewrite half of it... again
< 1598676277 830198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got more fun when I stopped using random instances and started using real instances.
< 1598676286 708806 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598676291 684256 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should pick a good representative set of instances to be testing on.
< 1598676337 396470 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah first that makes it more fun.... but then you realize you need a good way to benchmark stuff and that's another rabbit hole
< 1598676354 605261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, definitely trickier than I thought.
< 1598676368 293494 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1598676368 876935 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1598676560 151647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it being used for?
< 1598676604 695521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the project unknown?
< 1598676605 779925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether I should improve my SAT solver or try figuring out how SMT solvers work.
< 1598676777 509927 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown, but he commented on an open issue related to timeouts and mentioned that he added cancellation from another thread and asked whether I'd be interested in merging something like that
< 1598676814 705679 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where he mentioned that he's using it in an interactive setting... and IIRC he recently started working on games, so that'd be my guess
< 1598676821 390341 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, the Io person.
< 1598676836 986897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My friend was using a SAT solver to design levels in a puzzle game.
< 1598676844 420181 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io?
< 1598676857 245628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://canonical.org/~kragen/raph-io.html
< 1598676966 800894 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: For my own solver, instead of a timeout, I was thinking of adding a more iterator-like API for the solver loop.
< 1598677002 261358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess for a SAT solver it's pretty simple, if it looks like a classic CDCL solver.
< 1598677069 166787 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I also thought about that, (for the same reason, it's somewhat natural given the CDCL loop), but I do want to offer convenience APIs for a) callback based termination to match the IPASIR api and b) cancellation from a different thread using an atomic bool as flag and c) timeouts without requiring a second thread
< 1598677110 72892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The loop looks like while (1) { unit_propagation(); if (conflict) { if (level == 0) return false; backtrack(); } else { if (all_assigned) return true; guess(); } }, right?
< 1598677127 131088 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598677129 681471 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where most time is spent in unit propagation.
< 1598677145 805346 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, makes sense that you've had the same thought.
< 1598677169 194628 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What puzzle game levels are designing by SAT solver?
< 1598677170 801079 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are also restarts but roughly like that
< 1598677171 176850 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convenience APIs seem good to provide, but as the core API I think something like this is much nicer.
< 1598677192 783487 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already getting into more detail than I meant to.
< 1598677232 820937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really I should have said while (1) { /* something that takes a relatively long time */ }. I was just trying to remember how it worked.
< 1598677265 907222 :glowcoil_!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fyvfdbrycpraeptr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598677272 345968 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like while (1) { /* something that takes a short amount of time, but you need to do it many, many, many times */ }
< 1598677273 348088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's still a secret game unfortunately.
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< 1598677302 731055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the thing I was wondering was whether having an API boundary there would have a performance impact.
< 1598677311 472072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I doubt it.
< 1598677317 775607 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598677355 443020 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so returning after each conflict should be perfectly safe (in my solver and IIRC many others)finding a conflict is a sub-loop)
< 1598677361 498745 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598677385 534997 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :returning each time after running unit propagation to completion, I'm not quite sure
< 1598677413 820722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, unit propagation + handling the conflict sort of goes together.
< 1598677439 555746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess it doesn't have to, you can just save your state.
< 1598677472 237605 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I meant if you need multiple guesses to find a conflict, returning inbetween might not be a good idea performance wise
< 1598677497 756792 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if returning implies you're going to check termination criteria and potentially other stuff that could slow down things)
< 1598677529 700364 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't tested that at all, I just know you're pretty safe doing that after a conflict given all the other stuff that happens anyway for a conflict
< 1598677612 366351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, I just looked up IPASIR, I didn't know about this at all.
< 1598677685 691789 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always end up needing functionallity outside of that API, sometimes supported by solver specific APIs... but often enough not even that, even though it wouldn't be too hard to add it
< 1598677717 587770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's too bad it's callback-based. Callback APIs aren't fun when you can avoid them.
< 1598677729 339822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you should certainly be able to, for something like this.
< 1598677748 513488 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's inteded to be easy to add to existing solvers, and callbacks make that easier
< 1598677764 248682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough.
< 1598677786 862050 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a lot of uses you don't even need any of the callback APIs though
< 1598677821 975289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just being able to add new clauses without deleting the clause database is presumably most of the incrementality people need.
< 1598677839 81806 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that and solving under assumptions
< 1598677874 800199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, how do assumptions work? I guess that just means adding things to the trail?
< 1598677907 258182 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's exactly just that, you fix a prefix on the trail and if you'd backtrack beyond that you return unsat (under assumptions)
< 1598677933 332624 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598677940 415174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was briefly wondering whether you'd learn wrong clauses that way but of course you wouldn't.
< 1598677971 116730 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the conflict analysis you do to detect that you'd backtrack beyond that you also get a subset of assumptions causing the conflict for free (which is also part of the IPASIR api)
< 1598678007 547839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's nice.
> 1598678027 570343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77024&oldid=76991 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+107) 10
> 1598678062 740470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77025&oldid=76950 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+16) 10
< 1598678090 358706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if SMT solvers need more of an API than this?
< 1598678112 181520 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends AFAIK
< 1598678138 211368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not knowing much about what is SMT solvers, I don't know really
> 1598678150 318692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aubergine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77026&oldid=74883 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+95) 10
< 1598678180 52985 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need more than that for CDCL(T) or for bitblasting AFAICT
< 1598678218 239942 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want to do eager theory propagation (not sure if that's an established term) you need a way to hook into unit propagation
< 1598678233 755554 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how much that is done or if it is important at all
< 1598678296 42110 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a few minutes ago I found and corrected a bug in TeXnicard involving division by zero when the total available vertical space is rigid, resulting in alternating lines of text being displayed and hidden.
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< 1598680630 410110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like SAT solvers?
< 1598680871 107986 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I do not know much about SAT solvers.
< 1598680887 348335 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If I knew, maybe I would be able to answer your other questions too, but I don't know.)
< 1598680897 275694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like graph coloring solvers?
< 1598680936 616239 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are more logic solver systems than one might expect and they are competing against themselves quite regularly
< 1598681113 754007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I should actually learn about integer programming solvers. I hear they're pretty good..
< 1598681116 727754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/.$//
< 1598681138 972799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I don't even really know about linear programming.
< 1598681159 492769 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of mine writes a mip solver in his spare time to optimize his factorio world
< 1598681185 423941 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear programming is not that hard, really
< 1598681270 815770 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: as you already know how SAT solvers work, learning about MIP will make you annoyed that SAT solvers are bad at what MIP solvers are good at and that MIP solvers are bad at what SAT solvers are good at (well, at least it does that for me)
< 1598681275 161966 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer programms make it quite a bit harder
< 1598681312 599093 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently it's difficult enough to combine them in a way that gets the advantages of both
< 1598681327 141060 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc linear programms are in P
< 1598681335 36697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: That was my impression. Well, I really only know one direction, in seeing some problems that MIP solvers are good at and SAT solvers are bad at.
< 1598681345 176095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I heard it went both ways.
< 1598681372 167289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot more industrial use of MIP, I think?
< 1598681398 833659 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think so
< 1598681413 102882 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for problems where SAT or SMT solvers would be better
< 1598681430 808061 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not that surprising, SAT solvers only decide, MIP solvers optimize
< 1598681470 631826 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: that's not really a distinction that matters though, if you can do one you can do the other, in theory as well as in practice
< 1598681491 174526 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it might be that it works in theory but is too slow in practice, but with incremental SAT solvers optimizing is also fast in practice
< 1598681493 674756 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: well, at additional cost, yeah
< 1598681554 600794 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to state your problem in such a way that you can make good guesses about what change in the corresponding sat problem
< 1598681598 415138 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not having seen graph coloring solvers, I don't really know. But at least I can understand a bit of what is meant, I suppose. How difficult are they to solve, though?
< 1598681629 571056 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :graph coloring is NP complete
< 1598681639 901107 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it's about as hard as SAT solvers
< 1598681694 319195 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK.
< 1598681741 379443 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, a lot more work has been put into sat sovlers, I think, and polynomial time is... well theoretically not that bad but in practice it can get pretty bad
< 1598681851 734247 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, depending on the algorithm and how much data, it can be, considering, there are many kind of polynomials, some of which are big.
< 1598681853 170955 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, we had a lecture on algorithms to solve euclidean tsp that aren't really worth attempting with real data sets, if you could just brute-force
< 1598682087 454880 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1598684501 453630 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598684652 975485 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just now I found the new documentation about the schema table for SQLite, and about the new name "sqlite_schema" instead of "sqlite_master". I knew about this before from the Fossil timeline. I am glad that "For historical reasons, callbacks from the sqlite3_set_authorizer() interface always refer to the schema table using names (1) or (3)" because that is the part that I was concerned about.
< 1598684669 365907 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, good, now my concern has been considered, so it is OK now.
< 1598685413 928297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should I choose which learnt clauses to delete?
< 1598685419 49926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I just delete the longest ones.
< 1598685431 402533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how should I store watch lists?
< 1598686361 436635 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't know. Hopefully, we can learn which way is good.
< 1598687397 326473 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the classic approach (used by minisat and probably solvers before it) uses clause activities, glucose added LBDs (aka as clause glues or glue levels) as a metric for that, chanseok oh's solvers added a strategy that partitions learned clauses into 3 tiers and uses activities and LBDs and whether they've been part of a conflict recently (IIRC it's been a time) and that's the state of the
< 1598687399 553602 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :art unless something changed in the past 1.5 years
< 1598688626 412529 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598688743 909663 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1598690306 438606 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77027&oldid=77004 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-46) 10I am going to talk about this later.
> 1598690376 967186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77028&oldid=77027 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-83) 10And this too.
< 1598692243 99565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-41.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1598692345 507290 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1598692705 157792 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1598693407 747513 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77029&oldid=77028 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+490) 10Introducing IO!
< 1598694753 969372 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfvtdkdugtqnlyts JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598696120 540612 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598696168 583171 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit: what does "non-monadic" mean in that context?
< 1598696792 172172 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1598696819 403503 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598697109 359672 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth just how many ways can you spell fairy in English? "fairy, fairie, faerie, færie, faery, fae, fey, fay"; plus any of those suffixed with " folk" and "fair folk" apparently
< 1598697129 140381 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're worse than djinns
> 1598697536 942032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0711001000010011011001014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77030&oldid=74384 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+4) 10
> 1598699943 996694 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77031&oldid=77029 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+720) 10Introducing DATA TYPES!
< 1598702537 805394 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598702981 956267 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursaga
< 1598702997 867861 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598703863 784535 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1598704328 599900 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfvtdkdugtqnlyts QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1598705479 447552 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598705980 312483 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1598706009 747137 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1598706619 124850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77032&oldid=77031 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+731) 10Introducing CONTROL FLOW!
> 1598706692 873040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77033&oldid=77032 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Emphasizing 'if'.
> 1598706846 281390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77034&oldid=77033 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+95) 10Introducing I!
< 1598707003 886350 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1598709571 874761 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
> 1598711078 995013 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77035&oldid=76960 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+76) 10
> 1598711375 545482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77036&oldid=76961 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+101) 10
< 1598713300 988868 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598713483 890112 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1598714537 759570 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/obscenery/
< 1598714539 196750 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/obscenery/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
> 1598714570 782931 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77037&oldid=77034 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+666) 10Introducing PROGRAMS!
> 1598714631 281070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Modulous14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77038&oldid=76980 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+150) 10
> 1598715121 687435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77039&oldid=77037 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+181) 10Introducing EXTERNAL RESOURCES!
< 1598715965 517742 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598716247 154741 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed
> 1598716378 331197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77040&oldid=77039 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+23) 10Introducing REDIRECTS!
> 1598716404 614165 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77041&oldid=77040 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-23) 10Wait what?
> 1598716563 487850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77042 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+17) 10Redirection fora golfing language.
> 1598716659 876798 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77043&oldid=77041 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Capitalization: The beginnings
> 1598716705 817362 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77044&oldid=77043 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+4) 10Link to the esolang page
> 1598716860 4470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77045&oldid=77044 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+133) 10A bit more clarification.
< 1598716866 985034 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1598716887 408645 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
> 1598716888 681269 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77046&oldid=77045 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+9) 10Grammar Fix
> 1598717000 410008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77047&oldid=77046 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+45) 10Space is a nop!
> 1598717085 670049 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77048&oldid=77047 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Actually, these 'nops' do have a purpose.
< 1598717165 125778 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1598717435 896631 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77049&oldid=77008 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+10) 10,,, Joins the battle!
> 1598717918 2278 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77050&oldid=77048 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+57) 10Bit more ClaRiFiCaTion.
> 1598717980 531021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77051&oldid=77050 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-83) 10AHH MY FOCUS
> 1598718096 479396 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77052&oldid=77051 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+11) 10ClArIfIcAtIoN
> 1598718135 673378 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77053&oldid=77052 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10...
> 1598718180 563764 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77054&oldid=77053 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10.:.:.
< 1598719593 721222 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598719659 775540 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1598719763 746064 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1598721027 178653 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.39.129.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598721778 250786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598724163 908951 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1598724361 314206 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598724698 964321 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598725041 931524 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1598725285 891830 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598725939 616455 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1598726502 119614 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu
> 1598726700 394839 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77055&oldid=76971 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+143) 10Something more...
> 1598726994 699189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07QuineLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77056&oldid=69523 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+8) 10When creating articles, it is good to write them in 3rd-person perspective. :)
> 1598727272 760462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77057&oldid=77055 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-175) 10I guess this sentence is not needed.
> 1598727345 289371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77058&oldid=77023 5* 03Osmarks 5* (+199) 10
> 1598727510 21954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77059&oldid=77057 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+152) 10A bit more stuff about esolangs.
> 1598727550 176195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77060&oldid=77059 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-10) 10Aw man
> 1598727622 870203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77061&oldid=77058 5* 03Osmarks 5* (+79) 10
> 1598727705 394750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77062&oldid=77060 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+48) 10More... MORE!
> 1598727757 646605 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77063&oldid=77062 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10OH NOES
< 1598728065 523852 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598728460 296828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :another homepage where if the browser window isn't very wide, then essential links are hidden. I was searching for how to log in.
> 1598728640 962284 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77064&oldid=77035 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+30) 10,,,
< 1598729074 149465 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.39.129.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1598729076 451750 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Non-monadic in the sense that you don't use an explicit structure like the monad from Haskell?
< 1598729201 165829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: ok, though I don't understand how that would apply to a prime sieve
< 1598729343 220737 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's surprising that this is possible: https://tomas.rokicki.com/logic_puzzle.html
< 1598729346 461654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can use any number of 'and' and 'or' gates, with any number of inputs each, but only two 'not' gates. You must build a circuit that computes for inputs A, B, and C, the three separate values not A, not B, and not C."
< 1598729423 200761 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, interesting
< 1598729429 453952 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will think about that
< 1598729488 194224 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible? i would assume it works with stuff similar two the variable switch without a temporary one
< 1598729552 562092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible.
< 1598729563 837428 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm
< 1598729594 282604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a computer-found solution but I'm not sure I understand how it works entirely.
< 1598729606 747858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: let me think about that one
< 1598729726 260014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's some easy description of functions that you can build from just & and | gates, IIRC think a function can be built that way iff it is monotonous, gives 0 for all-0 input, and gives 1 for all-1 input.
< 1598729752 416418 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right
< 1598729856 743500 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: My language is eager. So the 'standard' Haskell short definition of a prime sieve doesn't work.
< 1598729899 947784 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are ways to deal with that. I listed two manners which mimic lazy lists.
> 1598729940 590282 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77065&oldid=74234 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+663) 10/* Subcategories for the Non-Textual category. */ new section
< 1598730112 714464 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The manner which I didn't list would be to use monads to model lazy behavior in an eager language.
< 1598730125 729821 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to avoid that.
< 1598730432 131380 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is your computer-found solution a boolean function or a circuit?
< 1598730747 114872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see
< 1598730808 917247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not specifically think of monads to avoid lazyness, just of a list-like iterator interface
< 1598730839 950812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly the caching style a lazy list, since that's what you need for a prime sieve
< 1598731060 446135 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but iterators fit into monads too. If you want it.
< 1598731112 582941 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have any other possible solutions I would be very interested.
< 1598731212 739661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but just the monad interface isn't really enough here
< 1598731250 696314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even see why it would really help much
< 1598731294 423202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the (>>=) method for lists is mapConcat, but you just need a filter, which is a special case of that, plus you need to iterate on the list of divisors and stop when they grow too large, for which monads don't really help
< 1598731370 287068 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like we have tangent thoughts on this.
> 1598731491 765859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77066&oldid=38410 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+315) 10/* Is it possible to add "psuedo-truth-machines"? */ new section
< 1598731654 81530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ideally I should try to read your code and write the sieve with lazy lists like I thought, to make this clearer, but right now I'm busy with some stupid webpage
< 1598731705 774944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a webpage where I ordered something and want to order more, but I'm trying to write a userstyle to make the important control link visible, it's currently hidden by some stupid HTML+CSS thing that sets a height too small
< 1598731725 423960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, changing the height isn't enough, because then it overlaps something else
< 1598731789 479990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand why this user CSS rule doesn't match this element
< 1598731875 886160 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you check its effects in the inspector? (At least, that is what I did.)
< 1598731905 494577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what I'm trying to do
< 1598731972 688550 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For if you change your mind. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/sieve.eg https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/sieveK.eg
< 1598732010 240407 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I think would be useful to have "meta-CSS" which is only usable in user CSS codes and cannot be specified by the web page author, and can be used for making selections based on other CSS commands, setting priorities differently, etc.
< 1598732041 444533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the inspector says `
< 1598732064 676872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :` with some elements in it, and shows all the CSS rules that match it, and I have reduced my rule to `
< 1598732066 33519 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :? Permission denied
< 1598732083 512056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :reduced my rule to `ul.wl { height: auto; }` and it doesn't match this element
< 1598732092 471305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not overriden by another rule, that I could understand
< 1598732095 587708 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "style" attribute overrides user CSS so you may need to specify !important
< 1598732095 963800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just doesn't match
< 1598732102 914723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh!
< 1598732107 550420 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't loko like "ul.wl" should match; maybe you need "ul.w1"
< 1598732109 771935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :f'ck
< 1598732117 909226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :w1
< 1598732127 653504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks... stupid font this inspector uses
< 1598732139 496397 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you change the fonts?
< 1598732142 229614 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: haven't found a solution yet (trying to find one by hand currently) but that logic puzzle sounds very cool
< 1598732152 982774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look
< 1598732190 810475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not easily, it's not in the settings
< 1598732207 946680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably only stylable by user styles that affect the UI too, but I don't want to mess with those too much
< 1598732248 634771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, the rule matches now, thank you
< 1598732255 782535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still need more rules, but this is progress
< 1598732420 692506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate these stupid overspecified CSSes where to change a height I have to override it in like six different places
< 1598732437 429624 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just vomit in a lot of random redundant rules
< 1598732447 716592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate web developers
< 1598732526 951584 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is pretty bad, although you might be able to add !important sometimes, but I think that isn't general enough and meta-CSS would help better.
< 1598732536 699027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, now the top bar is tall enough, but it overlaps the main content, so now I have to find out how that's placed
< 1598732704 298037 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to avoid CSS as much as possible in my own web pages (which I don't do much; mostly I use plain text) in order to avoid these problems.
< 1598732797 889198 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want is a mode to mostly ignore CSS and instead use ARIA and HTML to decide what to display.
< 1598732892 92909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything has absolute positioning, it's a huge mess
< 1598732923 341493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so at first approximation this should be enough, it makes the navigation link visible, the rest of the site is uglier now but who cares
< 1598732943 357420 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might of course find other hidden stuff later
< 1598732946 184462 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does disabling CSS entirely help at all?
< 1598733095 776990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps for some sites, I don't think it would work on this site
< 1598733122 565390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: hmm wait, egel doesn't even have mutable data like mutable containers, right? then I can't just write a lazy list with caching
< 1598733146 158133 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I find too it doesn't work best for all sites, but sometimes it does work better
< 1598733181 462452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked well for another site that I visited recently, which hid some text by disabling scrolling on the body or some such nonsense
< 1598733192 895100 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I would want is the web browser to be designed by the assumption that the user is the expert and knows what they are doing and means what they specify, while the document author is incompetent or malicious
< 1598733334 801513 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Correct. No mutation, except for some unsafe extensions.
< 1598733363 370553 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: What's the difference?
< 1598733382 714905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's a circuit that computes a function.
< 1598733562 295696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: well that makes implementing a prime sieve much harder. I'd probably need to use that banking list data structure or whatever it's called, the one that stores a list divided in two parts, the suffix part reversed, and sometimes has to rebalance them by flipping the whole suffix to the prefix, but in a prime sieve that happens exponentially rarely.
< 1598733594 703094 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: circuits can loop
< 1598733618 64678 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: like, you cannot express a flipflop as a boolean function
< 1598733648 433228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no loops.
< 1598733664 335620 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am unacquainted with that data structure.
< 1598733812 240809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand this webpage though, I'll have to get back to it later
< 1598733818 680343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for today I think I give up
> 1598733917 247448 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77067&oldid=77061 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+331) 10/* Language specifications */ Add ^ and v
< 1598733965 421093 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: it's a rare data structure, I think it's documented in Okasaki's thesis, I don't think Knuth mentions it but I'm not sure
< 1598733972 147144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Okasaki's book
< 1598733996 730776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the book is an extended version of the thesis, I don't have it, but I've seen it once long ago; the thesis is available online
> 1598734019 200602 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77068&oldid=77067 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+22) 10Forgot to credit myself
< 1598734021 665976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a link somewhere from esowiki
< 1598734038 296539 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lazy data structures thing?
< 1598734049 66908 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1598734208 229836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there doesn't seem to be a link from the esowiki
< 1598734243 327190 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure I could find it if I wanted to.
< 1598734279 46658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or from the wisdom database
> 1598734281 900972 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77069&oldid=77068 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+438) 10
< 1598734295 694990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Okasaki has the reference
> 1598734549 63858 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77070&oldid=77069 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+74) 10
> 1598734773 787019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77071&oldid=77054 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+94) 10I hope the readers know what I am talking about.
> 1598734983 783094 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77072&oldid=77070 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+148) 10/* Language specifications */
> 1598735006 137869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77073&oldid=77072 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+6) 10/* Language specifications */ Add
> 1598735095 77783 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77074&oldid=77073 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+7) 10/* Language specifications */ Clearer language
< 1598735138 526417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: ... ok, so the problem here is that I still haven't put on a proper egel installation an wrapper to HackEso (I wanted to modify a few things in the code to make it more convenient for HackEso), so I can't easily test this online
< 1598735316 210046 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Maybe I have an alternative. Moment.
< 1598735345 485817 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tio.run/##hVTbbtpAEH33V4ych9qlIVzUFyIqtWmFKkVEIi9YBCEHj8mq9q5lL2po02@nsxevl4a2lsA7Zy5ndi7GHRbH40VwAQvRoJQp3IgMAZ/TsiqQBP49Pbxp4Jbl2A@U3T3iBJ6krCZXV7Xx2ZJLX9S7IGBlJWoJYVVjsScQd6HDmCBRhEGwbxjfwf2hkVha4ZY10h6/3gVBhjk8irTOGvYDYQrvDYRlJQ8krmAJCVx@gAGsjYbxBoljGgA9Rv3p7uPiszLSmMUHkAwUxnJIeQYRAdMpLGOIEn1KYpBPyGHonLwHiwZtWBNo3dJvhaBcLX2BEhaUZV6LUgrKMequcgnDmJL1U6Jc9V3KtILoYdkdNbpUKSX0I7s1hV0YwqpmXG6xKNyV
< 1598735351 538729 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :9bU0DGEfQo2@wMZD30LY5qsRnZXzb8vlUstFkRWw2ihmm9Mq0um0ITV/ZAtCijWZXrdsD5zYgIuqLY4r1Z7LP1hNNx2zDUlkulxRot8x9DrNebR3Yv23eMkrn@Qf1lHSO8PdO8usUXtPjs/Sa87cTt1cTdnYDpmZqIHrVWskaoi04Si2h3F86tKy7KsslfifTqqBpCZO7Vy5Jqqye@2DyPSmQwjKi1RKIjZNPJldFZZG1w8LNzDvQusSKERPr@fZjldtJgoGcbet5vACWrHxFHbFu9Ve2@8B5WCr8Vgw/g1rW4nIegxVGftOHJ2KYxKNd5kyTrdxOzz7MqdvggtqyOwtrH5Ier8F2uXUZPTaZOjXwq3ZzFvVHXKsU8kEn9AeXfv7OrNb9VNxvdPh9P/o1/
< 1598735357 557316 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :H4Gw
< 1598735360 58375 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops.
< 1598735400 545321 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was more lengthy than I expected. 'Try it online' has Egel.
< 1598735423 396146 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can find it from here: https://egel-lang.github.io/
< 1598735431 996303 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know what version it runs.
< 1598735493 821397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
> 1598735595 682849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77075&oldid=77074 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+395) 10Added symbols
> 1598735621 214942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77076&oldid=77075 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+1) 10/* Language specifications */ Comma for clarity
< 1598735666 804751 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tio.run/##S01Pzfn/PyU1TSE3MTNPwVZBKSM1Jydf6f9/AA
< 1598735753 783437 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget to give 'using System' directives.
> 1598735765 310581 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77077&oldid=77076 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+5) 10/* Language specifications */ Clarified semantics
< 1598735771 350066 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise you don't have addition, etc.
< 1598735918 914156 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tio.run/##S01Pzfn/v7Q4My9dIbiyuCQ1l4srJTVNIS0xWcFWIVrBQEHXTsFQoUbBD8TwU9ACy2gAeQqGmgqxEMW5iZl5QNUgGdP//wE
< 1598735926 880172 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stop spamming now.
< 1598735934 173519 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: right, so basically for HackEso I want to write a wrapper, and modify the code when necessary, so that I can start spruit such that it runs a custom (for HackEso) prelude that loads the right modules and imports the right things into your namespace, and then run either a file or the code in an argument, in both case in the same namespace that I imported stuff into,
< 1598736001 899529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :optionally do it like the interactive interpreter that can execute a value and then print it, but such that you can still have (silent) declarations and assignments in the same code as the one that can just print values, and it doesn't print interactive prompts (I think this part needs a code change),
< 1598736061 447756 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The biggest problem is persistency, right? You probably also want some kind of persistency in a session/irc conversation.
< 1598736062 200522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ideally also modify the pretty-printer so it can print tuples and lists using proper tuple or list notation, possibly incomplete lists too, but have some escape so you can print full forms too
< 1598736079 526277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: that's later, first I just want single lines
< 1598736085 102081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :persistency is harder
< 1598736136 53719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I could probably add lambdabot-like persistence, where in addition to a constant prelude, it also adds a variable prelude, and there's a command to try to add a declaration to the variable prelude but only if it doesn't error out, and a command to delete the entire variable prelude
< 1598736137 42270 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like a lot of work? How did you do it for other languages?
< 1598736153 983984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with prehaps two of these preludes, one in tmp and one not in tmp
< 1598736162 889742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even without persistence this is useful
< 1598736175 531761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: persistance can be done in various ways depending on what languages do
< 1598736211 304600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for jevalbot, for persistence I dump only the value of the symbols in the main namespace, and load those at the start, using J's built-in value serializer
< 1598736213 154874 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember somebody from another channel who just wrote a short bash script. Moment.
> 1598736272 66978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DmilkaSTD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77078&oldid=76588 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-2584) 10Blanked the page
< 1598736290 798753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in broad strokes, there are three ways to do persistence: (a) keep an interpreter process alive, (b) save the code that takes you to that state, like lambdabot, (c) serialize (some of) interpreter state, like jevalbot
< 1598736367 556991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(c) is the most variable, because interpreters themselves differ a lot in what support they offer for this, some have workspaces like many classical APL or Smalltalk that saves everything in interpreter state but not necessarily in code form, some have some help to serialize data but not necessarily all state (because state can contain eg. file descriptors)
< 1598736379 463644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without persistence, this isn't a lot of work
< 1598736395 29351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least when I looked at egel the last time, it seemed like only a few easy changes
< 1598736399 980085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just lazy to finish it
< 1598736411 758185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because egel can already do most of what I want so I just need a wrapper script
< 1598736438 181068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run the prelude and code in the same namespace, I can just concatenate them before I give it to egel
< 1598736459 786674 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/diku-dk/sturluson
< 1598736464 462954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can invoke egel as an interactive interpreter, which does most of what I want, except I need to silence the prompts
< 1598736482 119114 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ has a bash script which runs the futhark compiler.
< 1598736482 687582 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IIRC I had to do something with the module search paths
< 1598736503 253752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC because spruit11 has "." hard-coded to search path, which I hate and want to turn off
< 1598736536 798777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think it's only two minor changes to egel: remove hard-coded "." from search path, silence prompts (both possibly only if you give a command-line option)
< 1598736544 416600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then a wrapper script and prelude
< 1598736575 975902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have wrapper scripts that run an interpreter or compiler with stuff from command line. if anything, we have too many of those wrapper scripts and they do too much.
< 1598736580 774822 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on HackEso that is
< 1598736611 899870 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. The module search path.
< 1598736632 611612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe you already fixed some of those in egel since I last looked
< 1598736697 549700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is, I want to do this so it's reproducible when you update egel, so I need a minimal patch to apply, and a simple script to compile and install it to HackEso after I download the repository tarball, and neither of those is hard really, each part is still just a few lines of code
< 1598736745 672676 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can surpress the "./" search path with -I.
< 1598736746 760806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already had some of it working, as in, I compiled egel on HackEso successfully and ran some egel commands
< 1598736765 454310 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: is that a new feature?
< 1598736769 578621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new"
< 1598736780 561012 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : // add local directory to the search path if no other where given
< 1598736781 581705 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (!hasI) oo->add_include_path(icu::UnicodeString("./"));
< 1598736786 334626 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea.
< 1598736832 880974 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have added that to the main routine after we spoke but it's a long time since we did that.
< 1598736839 682224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1598736925 831048 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just give it an extra bogus dir with "--include bogus" and it should work, I guess.
< 1598737014 725725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give it a real dir
< 1598737043 645242 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's good, so then I only need the other edit to egel, to have "interactive mode" without the prompt
< 1598737051 953337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an option
< 1598737097 170125 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly just auto-suppress the prompt in interactive mode unless isatty(0)
< 1598737114 180204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could have both
< 1598737134 978593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the prompt empty by default if !isatty(0), but also have an option to change the prompt string
< 1598737145 125245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a function or whatever
< 1598737158 201591 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it has to be a command-line option to suppress the first prompt
< 1598737188 772437 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. If it's useful I'll build that in.
< 1598737244 978075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, how would you implement HackEso being able to run an egel one-liner, which is first priority, running a script with prints is less important
< 1598737259 557708 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know egel better, maybe you have a better idea for this
< 1598737319 628749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one-liners you really want some symbols imported from the prelude
< 1598737386 532240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bonus, rename one of the "length" functions so you can access both without giving an explicit namespace
< 1598737397 993897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC one was string length, the other list length
< 1598737403 965728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably rename the list length one
< 1598737411 720495 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I am mulling of it.
< 1598737417 933550 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*over
< 1598737421 725130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it's not like it's urgetn
< 1598737439 12554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think I'll have any practical applications for this
< 1598737448 765989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just another #esoteric toy
< 1598737492 956583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I won't even eg. use it as a scripting language to write ordinary scripts on egel, there's perl and python on HackEso for that
< 1598737611 614812 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1598737698 999839 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am looking at what Python does.
< 1598737710 753199 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, copy.
< 1598737724 869840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: python sort of doesn't do the right thing here,
< 1598737751 404880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that in python, some code requires multiple lines, and there's no nice way to put those in a one-liner.
< 1598737761 143289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think egel doesn't have that, so you don't have to deal with that
< 1598737800 717089 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. I am just wondering whether you can surpress the prompt of Python.
< 1598737809 413952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also python has a real repl, which can run a statement and then ask for another statement on input, which I don't need for HackEso because HackEso can't get interactive inputs
< 1598737813 178670 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc on the other hand doesn't even have a prompt.
< 1598737838 542981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean suppress the prompt but still print things? let me look that up
> 1598737839 244881 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77079&oldid=77077 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+106) 10Expanded upon spaces
< 1598737869 965932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :python by default doesn't print values if it's not in interactive mode
< 1598737878 725695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just runs the statements as in from a script
< 1598737901 570300 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it reads and compiles the whole input then before running anything
> 1598737902 12039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77080 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+2483) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Conveyer |author=[[User:Abbin21]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/Abbin44/Conveyer Github Page] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |files=.coy
..."
< 1598737909 283531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see how to change that
< 1598737916 197351 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah, that's what Egel does too.
> 1598737916 836773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77081&oldid=77080 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+2) 10/* How it works */
< 1598737927 63033 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: import sys; sys.ps1 = ''
> 1598737928 2960 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77082&oldid=77081 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+1) 10/* How it works */
< 1598737944 12680 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And ps2 for the "secondary prompt", the ... one.)
< 1598737965 87444 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Interesting.
< 1598737969 197318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok, but how do you use interactive mode or print results automatically without input from a terminal, which is what you want in HackEso
< 1598737982 94343 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use dc interactively but it won't display a prompt nor display results automatically. The SQLite command line program does always display the results (even if the prompt is not displayed), since there is nothing else to do with the results (other than possibly writing them to a file, which it can also do if you specify that).
< 1598737982 720707 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can set the prompt from a script?
< 1598738009 265785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it matters because of the impractical newline thing, I have to fix that first by adding additional core python syntax, which I've been planning for a while but never really started coding
< 1598738021 304817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have figured out what I think is the right syntax at least
> 1598738028 133359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77083&oldid=77082 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+125) 10
< 1598738040 656462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even then I wouldn't do automatic prints from non-terminal, I'd just add prints
< 1598738043 729970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1598738052 164643 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's a way to get it to interactive mode.
> 1598738070 817123 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77084&oldid=77079 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+150) 10/* Language specifications */ Specified v behaviour better
< 1598738074 454297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also sys.displayhook, which "is called on the result of evaluating an expression entered in an interactive Python session" and can be used to customize how things are printed.
< 1598738074 579866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: the problem is, adding prints isn't a problem, but in non-interactive mode, egel can't even just evaluate multiple expressions for their side-effects
< 1598738093 150020 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, it can now.
< 1598738094 106300 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: so in non-interactive mode, I don't just have to add prints, I have to add lets assigning to a dummy and prints
< 1598738098 208404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1598738102 897413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case forget interactive mode
< 1598738108 792720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you fixed that, we want to use non-interactive mode only
< 1598738120 349366 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and explicit print statements in the one-liner
< 1598738141 986824 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I added the val keyword. 'val f = expr' will run 'expr' and assign the value to 'f'.
< 1598738147 204171 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's new.
< 1598738148 96770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: can multiple declarations and expressions just be on one line separated by semicolons?
< 1598738167 762132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: but then you'd still need a dummy var, that's not really better than needing lets
< 1598738171 416036 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egel isn't layout sensitive?
< 1598738179 374638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope not, but I don't remember completely
< 1598738188 701202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there was some problem with use or import statements or something
< 1598738198 91666 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't see what putting stuff on one line would help?
< 1598738208 293089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which aren't really statements and I think the interactive interpreter didn't like them on the same line as normal stuff
< 1598738224 960305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: because we type single IRC lines as input to HackEso
< 1598738226 607705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1598738226 732516 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '1 + 1\n2 + 2\n' | python -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738227 795094 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric : \ 2 \ 4
< 1598738251 308287 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one extra newline from somewhere, but it's almost an interactive Python with no prompts and reading from a non-terminal stdin.
< 1598738251 937894 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interactive intepreter will read one thing. WHich is either an expression, a declaration, or ..
< 1598738276 412257 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'll change that.
< 1598738287 895182 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e '1 + 1\n)\n2 + 2\n' | python -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738289 208021 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 \ ) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax \ \ 2 \ 4
> 1598738304 205254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77085&oldid=77084 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+69) 10Formatting
< 1598738321 710211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e 'print(1 + 1, file=stderr)\n)\nprint(2 + 2, file=stderr)\n' | python -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738322 840014 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 \ print(1 + 1, file=stderr) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax \ File "", line 1 \ ) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax \ File "", line 1 \ print(2 + 2, file=stderr) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
< 1598738336 465930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e 'print(1 + 1, file=stderr)\n)\nprint(2 + 2, file=stderr)\n' | python3 -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738337 638384 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ NameError: name 'stderr' is not defined \ File "", line 1 \ ) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ NameError: name 'stderr' is not defined
< 1598738350 181711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e'from sys import stderr; print(1 + 1, file=stderr)\n)\nprint(2 + 2, file=stderr)\n' | python3 -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738351 490191 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 \ -efrom sys import stderr; print(1 + 1, file=stderr)\n)\nprint(2 + 2, file=stderr)\n \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
< 1598738370 678427 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like it if "python" would be Python 3 at some point.
< 1598738412 963558 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I should..
< 1598738415 557252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` <<<$'from sys import stderr\nprint(1 + 1, file=stderr)\n)\nprint(2 + 2, file=stderr)\n' python3 -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738416 906536 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 \ File "", line 1 \ ) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax \ 4
< 1598738421 200031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's interactive, prints the 2 first
< 1598738449 800132 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -e 'print(1 + 1, file=sys.stdout)\nprint(2 + 2, file=sys.stderr)\n' | python3 -i -c 'import sys; sys.ps1 = ""; sys.ps2 = ""'
< 1598738450 961938 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 \ \ 2
< 1598738453 585065 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it can't be, that would break all sorts of compatibility, so we're stuck with python3 as the executable name, plus there's some wrapper called py that can invoke both but I never use that
< 1598738472 810040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think it'll be solved by eventually remembering to type "python3" instead.
< 1598738485 628097 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It really only matters for when starting it interactively.
< 1598738519 459898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can install an alias to python that fails with an error message, that acts only interactively, and you can still use python2 interactively if you really need that
< 1598738529 182468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost never forget to type python3
< 1598738571 463152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e use Date::Manip::Date 6; $s = Date::Manip::Date->new("now"); print $s->printf("%O %Z %z\n")
< 1598738573 165035 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2020-08-29T22:02:52 UTC +0000
< 1598738597 937992 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're in the middle of the ocean?
< 1598738622 52710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: ^ the point is, we can just type perl one-liner that can have multiple statements, each of which can load new modules, put stuff into the namespace, declare or assign stuff, print something
< 1598738637 574161 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I'll think it over..
< 1598738638 895903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't need a dummy variable to print something or to evaluate an expression for its side-effects
< 1598738648 663514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the simple experience that I would like
< 1598738659 725651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :python does not currently provide it, because you can't easily type compound statements to a one-liner
< 1598738670 136570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a separate problem from spruit, and needs separate fixes
< 1598738709 389440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :without compound statements, you can run a python one-liner that can load modules, import to my namespace, assign variables, evaluate expressions for their side effects
< 1598738718 677514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has a print statement to print stuff
< 1598738733 146778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if egel could give this experience, then it would be usable in one-liners
< 1598738762 226961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :printing expressions by default is not essential, only a few programming languages like octave do it, as long as printing is as simple as calling a print function
< 1598738770 842217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, I may have explained what I need wrong
< 1598738772 944084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :XY problem
< 1598738824 186551 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myah. I am mulling over it.
< 1598738862 148896 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But from my POV. Oneliners are a too restricted use case.
< 1598738889 721999 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, they're just the first goal
< 1598738894 180793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can figure out persistence later
< 1598738907 894802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we can't even run one thing, then we don't have a hope for running things persistently
< 1598738910 698496 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for executing commands directly. Maybe.
< 1598738924 618249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I wrote jevalbot, I first implemented only the non-persistent part,
< 1598738927 274309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then added persistence
< 1598738942 896779 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah, but persistency would solve your 'one liner' problem somewhat too.
< 1598738946 857191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit there's a lot of things messed up in jevalbot though
< 1598738955 976943 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just time in two or more lines.
< 1598738959 185367 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*type
< 1598738979 563613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: ok, but I don't want to *have to* type more than one IRC line if everything I need fits in one line
< 1598739020 813792 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some programming languages are statement oriented some is more like expression oriented, and some works differently, and different conventions in the interactive mode can be useful in different programming languages. For stack based programming languages, such as Forth, dc, and PostScript, it will just leave the result on the stack but you can enter some commands to display them.
< 1598739039 25127 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll think it over. THere's the 'egel -c "someexpr"' which might get better if you could put more on one line. So there's that too.
> 1598739039 396336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77086&oldid=77085 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+198) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598739044 907542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: thank you
< 1598739072 506342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: will you also think about tuples and lists for the pretty-printer?
> 1598739081 649941 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77087&oldid=77086 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+6) 10/* Language specifications */ Forgot a br
< 1598739091 195286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an escape clause to get the full form
< 1598739092 217862 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe, that's higher on my list but problematic.
< 1598739109 211034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it problematic?
> 1598739133 459018 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77088&oldid=77087 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+4) 10/* Language specifications */ Added an article
< 1598739134 140886 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egel is untyped. It's a hefty cost to check large datastructes for well-formedness.
< 1598739146 38151 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*datastructurs
< 1598739148 729151 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god.
< 1598739148 854560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you have to check them for well-formedness?
< 1598739152 879663 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's late.
< 1598739154 559689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuples are always well-formed
< 1598739170 818467 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lists aren't.
< 1598739181 89054 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, for lists either you only have to check that they have the empty list as the tail, or have a printed representation for dotted lists
< 1598739195 267906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme and prolog chooses the latter method, having dotted lists
< 1598739198 284043 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 nil cons` is an entirely legal term.
< 1598739199 473721 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
< 1598739229 687486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: sure, you only need to print a list or partial list if cons/2 is the head of a function call
< 1598739237 189760 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or cons is the head of a two-argument function call or something
< 1598739263 647944 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think the entire list needs to be well-formed?
< 1598739287 428164 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if everything is okay but you end with `0` instead of `nil`?
< 1598739294 480211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: then you print a dotted list
< 1598739301 244148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to show in prolog, which HackEso has
< 1598739301 371115 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmpf.
< 1598739308 531902 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I get it.
< 1598739318 214439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1598739379 518377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complication with prolog is that apparently even though it has list and dotted list syntax, it's not standardized what the name of the symbol that is the head of a cons is, and the prolog brand that HackEso has uses the other choice
< 1598739410 990316 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of just dropping cons and use nested tuples for everything.
< 1598739430 337780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww
< 1598739442 680463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is having a specific constructor for cons and nil hard?
< 1598739448 603504 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? Egel is untyped. Might as well go the whole way.
< 1598739449 880720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, egel lets you create custom constructors
< 1598739453 192491 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minimalism.
< 1598739457 493181 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can have as many as you want
< 1598739465 682271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're cheap
< 1598739465 933465 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, math does it that way often too.
< 1598739479 200278 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aesthetics.
< 1598739490 812948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :math puts a type system over it, but doesn't often talk about it
< 1598739494 858643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a static type system that is
< 1598739498 512126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :known only at compile time
< 1598739513 311959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at runtime the representation of a tuple and a cons might be the same, but you distinguish them at compile time
< 1598739526 861136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have something like that in C too
< 1598739535 316001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's suitable for a dynamically typed language
< 1598739562 754101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, isn't this a pure library feature anyway?
< 1598739574 144884 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANyway. Prompt. Multiple expressions. Pretty-printing.
< 1598739578 778938 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement tuples, lists, and pretty-printing as library features
< 1598739601 295946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can already match a cons and have a fallback clause in egel
< 1598739606 942401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just write a pretty-print function
< 1598739623 70226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, almost
< 1598739630 66921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't because it can't match arbitrary arity functions I think
< 1598739633 492819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1598739634 776905 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1598739636 526967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrary arity applications
< 1598739641 345791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's a problem
< 1598739642 430753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1598739648 636010 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got you the first time.
< 1598739650 792680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1598739659 165268 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should change that once.
< 1598739667 34201 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsure to what.
> 1598739671 899129 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77089&oldid=77088 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (-5) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598739701 209604 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just ignore everything below arity 9.
< 1598739703 90214 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in that case you might need the pretty-printer in C
< 1598739703 468363 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well.
< 1598739713 810353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++ I mean
< 1598739777 317395 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have implemented a Lisp!
< 1598739779 790314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in olvashato I just mapped tuples and conses and lists to the tuple/cons/list of the underlying languages, that was easier
< 1598739782 466477 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well.
< 1598739797 328961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: you still can, and call it egel2 or something
< 1598739825 864851 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented a lisp once but it sucks, it doesn't even have a let statement, or a way to add one, because it doesn't implement macros
< 1598739840 934115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very tiny lisp, with one page of code
< 1598739850 316015 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like those!
< 1598739863 68988 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egel is way larger than I want.
< 1598739864 962920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also no proper boolean type
< 1598739889 787810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not even a proper subset of scheme, because (eq (eq 9 9) 1) returns true
< 1598739910 618978 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat!
< 1598739916 102092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should return false because (eq 9 9) is a boolean and 1 is a number, but I just made eq return numbers
< 1598739919 360419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was lazy
< 1598739928 486241 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not neat, it's a way to make a non-scheme
< 1598739963 322441 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah. But a non-scheme which might run on a PIC..
< 1598739970 715630 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the smaller stuff.
< 1598739981 597113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if also doesn't quite behave for non-booleans like in scheme
< 1598739994 455144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one can't, it's written in J
< 1598740001 763767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not written in C or any such low-level thing
< 1598740091 141154 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh bummer.
< 1598740102 969929 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already wondered why it was that small.
< 1598740120 722363 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shortest I remember is one file of 2kLoc?
< 1598740123 5555 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsure.
< 1598740156 894910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to write a reference interpreter for Consumer Society in C that can be reduced to small if you omit all the optional features
< 1598740218 441177 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANyway. Prompt. Multiple expressions. Pretty-printing. Arity fix.
< 1598740242 379911 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's enough for a day.
< 1598740248 749317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not specifically requesting the arity fix
< 1598740266 832024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd use that
< 1598740279 93245 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah, but it's more on the top of my list than the rest.
< 1598740281 208891 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I'd try it if you developped it
< 1598740295 12067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :add renaming "length" to the list instead
< 1598740303 115451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in addition
< 1598740311 849553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list length
< 1598740323 527183 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying if general stuff isn't expressible in the language. So that kind-of floats to the top as a language bug.
< 1598740329 88689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, should I make tickets on github?
< 1598740365 188007 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could that but I have no clue how git works. I just push to master constantly.
< 1598740388 538641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: that's not a feature of git
< 1598740391 948658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a feature of github only
< 1598740396 638435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a very controversial one
< 1598740410 634917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people hate the github ticket system, which I totally understand
< 1598740410 930596 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like git then you could use a different version control system? There are many other ones too, not only git
< 1598740413 322265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it too
< 1598740444 253789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if a developer is maintaining their code and requests to submit tickets there, then of course I use it
< 1598740449 163968 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with my push to master approach it worked so far for me.
< 1598740453 575151 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what way would you do the ticket system better?
< 1598740530 74534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there are two main problems. one is that there's no easy way to migrate away from github if you use tickets. no easy feature to export all tickets. you can migrate the version control easily, since you can git clone it.
< 1598740585 103287 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Surely* they must have that in the API?
< 1598740626 340895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the other problem is not necessarily with tickets, only with how some projects use tickets: they demand that you submit github pull request, which require that the submitter makes a clone of the repository on github. you can't just submit a formatted git patch, you have to apply it to a github repo and link to the git commit object, that's how you can create a pull request.
< 1598740629 888711 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem I think is that as far as I can tell, you cannot post a ticket if you do not have an account, and I do not know if this can be customized.
< 1598740636 583205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they probably have a way to access tickets individuall
< 1598740641 369025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iterate over them
> 1598740654 913383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77090&oldid=77083 5* 03Abbin21 5* (-102) 10
< 1598740656 364733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the comments for them
< 1598740659 731452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all that stuff
< 1598740699 118419 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's pretty reasonable. I mean, you'd have to write some sort of conversion to whatever issue-tracking system you'd want to put them into, it's not like there's a standard interchange format for issue trackers.
< 1598740705 504225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, I guess you can add that, though I find that more acceptible, and have a github account that I use only for tickets, I don't have projects on github currently
< 1598740757 600895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: though I admit that even for that, it took me a long time until I could change my displayed username to what I want, because apparently I (or someone else) created an account with the username b_jonas, but I can't access that account, even though I probably created it somehow, so I can't use that username
< 1598740764 690459 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and if they demand you do a pull request instead, well I suppose it is right it isn't really a problem with the system itself but it is a problem, even if they add the possibility to add tickets without an account, that wouldn't work for pull requests.
< 1598740766 747771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I changed to some other similar username instead, and even that took a while
< 1598740807 427938 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: right, and a project could use the github ticket system but accept patches in forms other than github pull requests
< 1598740834 764156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think I've seen any project do that
> 1598740842 459972 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77091&oldid=77090 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+35) 10
< 1598740843 696220 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I hadn't really internalized that submitting GitHub issues requires a GitHub account.
< 1598740953 318155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, and one more thing. many projects don't want to use the github ticket system, and have some other way of reporting bugs, but it's not possible to configure github to just reject creating tickets and pull requests, so the best they can do is have some script that watches for tickets and pull requests and closes them with a reply that has a link to instructions for submitting bug reports and
< 1598740959 462199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :patches
< 1598740986 688603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: often they don't even use github for development at all, they just symc the project there so people can download the version history from github too
< 1598740989 857473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sync
< 1598741009 778802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like periotically push there from a master git repo hosted elsewhere
< 1598741035 313121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so these projects have to do a lot of extra work with tickets and pull requests
< 1598741036 3796 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can definitely configure GitHub to not have issues enabled.
< 1598741050 764894 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have seen some projects without issues enabled
< 1598741057 657793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually tickets, because the people who create pull requests are more likely to read instructions before submitting)
< 1598741091 539800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: projects that are still developped, not like closed and locked and owner account deleted?
> 1598741105 628313 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77092&oldid=77089 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+40) 10
< 1598741109 775242 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other git hosting services other than GitHub anyways.
< 1598741135 697309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, and that's a good thing, multiple services is a plus, but a service is worse if you can't migrate away easily
< 1598741145 662590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, I'm moderately sure, because I remember having to explicitly have to go in and enable issues for the `esolangs` repo (not that anyone's submitted any). Trying to double-check now though.
< 1598741151 159905 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in Fossil if you clone the repository it does clone the tickets too, so it doesn't have that problem at least. (And you can use SQL to export the tickets, should you need to do)
< 1598741151 976985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's also worse if you can't migrate *to* it easily, but I don't know how that works on github)
< 1598741168 858105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: right
< 1598741178 452196 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's a "[ ] Issues" checkbox in the repository settings, "Options" tab, "Features" subsection.
< 1598741188 59827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm...
< 1598741209 905117 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I might look at this later, but this is definitely what someone wrote about a project
< 1598741213 899449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on github
< 1598741228 769809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The list of toggleable features is: Wikis, "Restrict editing to collaborators only", Issues, Sponsorships, Projects and "Preserve this repository".)
< 1598741238 97851 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can find which project it was so I can look it up later
< 1598741306 39628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That last feature is the thing where they took all GitHub code to the vault in Svalbard. I should've made sure to make *some* commit to the esolangs repo to have it included, since it only grabbed "repositories that have been active within recent months".
< 1598741330 993557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if there's something they'll need after a civilization-ending disaster, it's the code for esolangs.org/logs.
< 1598741351 336505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how often do they repeat that?
< 1598741373 422542 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was a one-off. At least they've not said anything about doing it periodically.
< 1598741385 116772 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We plan to evaluate the program, and the state of the art of archival technology, every five years. Depending on the results of each evaluation, we may then decide to take another snapshot of GitHub’s public code and archive it in cold storage."
< 1598741393 630595 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1598741411 752658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"five years" is never in this sort of thing
< 1598741430 204698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with "may decide"
< 1598741441 351231 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, they didn't include commit messages, apparently for GDPR-style reasons.
< 1598741462 422886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
> 1598741581 885374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77093&oldid=77091 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+97) 10
< 1598741677 72495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they've got another project going on for even more long-term storage.
< 1598741691 998241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the film they've put in the vault is only good for 500-1000 years.
< 1598741739 832333 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading up on https://archiveprogram.github.com/ -- there's a sort of map of layers of archives, and at the bottom they say they're "partnering with Microsoft’s Project Silica to ultimately archive all active public repositories for over 10,000 years, by writing them into quartz glass platters using a femtosecond laser".
< 1598741753 52784 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that's not at all related to the fact that it's a Microsoft subsidiary.
< 1598741777 3989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the problem there is that it's basically impossible to give a lower bound for how long any storage is likely to last without testing for much more than that amount of time
< 1598741789 624807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can give upper bounds
< 1598741819 895056 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm sure it's pretty much just estimates.
< 1598741842 870357 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the film they say it "has a lifespan of 500 years as measured by the ISO", but presumably ISO has not in fact tested it for 500+ years.
< 1598741884 760065 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how you can't really know for sure that a new medication or medical procedure for humans doesn't have harmful side-effects on the patient until it's been used more than a human lifespan ago
< 1598741900 624794 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1598742297 46191 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hacked two thing. String:length -> String:strlen and EGEL_PS0 as an environment variable to set the prompt.
< 1598742352 637648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: nice
> 1598742368 415556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77094&oldid=77092 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+285) 10/
> 1598742397 610518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77095&oldid=77094 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+4) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598742407 46078 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: why an env-var instead of a command-line option?
< 1598742427 931042 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it doesn't matter, since we probably don't want interactive mode afterall
< 1598742448 60438 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you tell me.
< 1598742453 317545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but non-interactive mode with top-level uses and declarations and anything
< 1598742460 646582 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just harder
< 1598742468 800040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so interactive mode with PS1= can be a good hack
< 1598742473 634144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the interim
< 1598742486 834738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's still useful
< 1598742491 653768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you
< 1598742499 213822 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. No problem.
< 1598742522 686479 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It both seemed useful.
< 1598742544 595455 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsure why I have namespaces if I am going to rename stuff. But ah well.
< 1598742558 595515 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess namespaces were overkill for this language anyway.
< 1598742564 173667 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: namespaces can be still useful
< 1598742581 616187 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myah, but it's for programming in the large. Right?
< 1598742590 563623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is a function that we want in the prelude, so if you don't rename it, the prelude would import it under a different name
< 1598742601 177761 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't really fit with Egel. Maybe it could be useful once for programming in the small.
< 1598742606 298212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for programming in the middle
< 1598742612 742001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and large too
< 1598742616 898386 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my place!
< 1598742649 758046 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll think over multiple expressions too but that's a bit weird in my model.
< 1598742692 422595 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You already have ';' in expressions. But I guess you want preceding directives too.
> 1598742735 446560 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77096&oldid=77095 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+2) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598742739 491536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: and preceding declarations too
< 1598742747 550075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :directives, declarations, expressions, all together
< 1598742774 35004 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if: preceding declarations and preceding directives but only one expression?
< 1598742823 498952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: that would be somewhat inconvenient, but still better than nothing
< 1598742849 799616 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. That's hard too. I've got no idea where a definition ends and the next expression starts..
< 1598742872 214808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you's have to use a parenthesis around the expressions, and move declarations before it
< 1598742874 907399 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`def f = 1 2`
< 1598742875 721154 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :def? No such file or directory
< 1598742912 886414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: what? the definition ends at the semicolon that is not inside balanced parenthesis, or at eof
< 1598742958 935923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where both brackets and round parenthesis and braces count
< 1598742993 181214 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Don't have semicolons (except for in expressions).
< 1598743010 353154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so layout *is* significant. that's what I said
< 1598743022 458330 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh?
< 1598743025 992622 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598743042 34709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can currently have multiple definitions in a file, right? how do you separate multiple definitions?
< 1598743065 801817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you only separate them with newlines? if so, that means layout is significant, and that's inconvenient for IRC where you don't want newlines in your IRC line
< 1598743076 511354 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression ends because either another def (or other) or eol.
< 1598743088 133406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because IRC lines can't have literal newlines, so you'd have to transform some escape to a newline before feeding to egel
< 1598743104 16487 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about newlines.
< 1598743110 907234 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I care about keywords.
< 1598743120 506970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "eol" mean?
< 1598743135 135263 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, sorry. Eof.
< 1598743156 76604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1598743160 115101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's a problem
< 1598743166 56592 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1598743203 408700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you need to modify the syntax, to allow semicolons or some other separator
< 1598743211 796182 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No way.
< 1598743240 960166 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe way. 'egel -c "command"' is a thing.
< 1598743256 385884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly a new keyword before bare expressions that's shorter than `def _=`
> 1598743292 329964 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77097&oldid=77096 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+32) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598743335 311641 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea.
< 1598743341 7696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: you could add double semicolons as a new separator if you prefer not to mess with ordinary semicolons, I think some repls for eg. perl do that when the underlying language is not suitable to use semicolons for this
< 1598743353 782659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in perl that's because they don't want to parse perl to know when to execute the partial string
< 1598743383 811315 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could also have it if the language just uses semicolons in an incompatible way (as long as it doesn't use double semicolons in an incompatible way)
< 1598743395 681747 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think something like `expr` could be a nice keyword if you just want to evaluate something for the side-effects.
< 1598743410 219719 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then.. The prompt.
< 1598743412 448117 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh.
> 1598743434 929853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77098&oldid=77097 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+92) 10
< 1598743486 219009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: are semicolons at least allowed at the end of a definition without changing anything, or do they change the value to void?
< 1598743492 650961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unit or whatever it's called
< 1598743502 297964 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the double semicolon is better. Just parse lines, split on double semicolon, feed that to the evaluator.
< 1598743520 904693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: why don't you like single semicolons?
< 1598743547 486191 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's 'expr := expr; expr | ...'.
< 1598743549 61810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make them optional before `def` and other such keywords
< 1598743601 292803 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could, but not really easy.
< 1598743630 894161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok
< 1598744057 398207 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding the semicolon. I don't like lay-out sensitive languages (also, I am lazy) and I don't like ending definition with a marker. So I ended with this.
> 1598744059 108112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77099&oldid=77098 5* 03RocketRace 5* (-177) 10Haha, I did it
< 1598744114 42196 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think I'll go for the double semicolon in interactive/command mode.
< 1598744114 933744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: if you do an arity fix, make sure you can match both an unknown arity function call with a known head and with an unknown head
< 1598744159 213028 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fix might be just converting something to a list. Don't know.
< 1598744219 469880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe to have some way for a user-defined function to do arbitrary computation before it decides if it returns evaluated or unevaluated
< 1598744238 295783 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1598744240 665567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently it can only do a series of top-level matches on its argumenr list before it
< 1598744268 618128 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still don't get it?
< 1598744316 221414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let f = [1 Y -> 2];; then (f 0 9) returns an unevaluated function call with f as its head, (f 1 9) returns evaluated to 2
> 1598744333 251319 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77100&oldid=73251 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+164) 10
< 1598744369 157713 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a feature, not a bug?
< 1598744402 967757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I define f so that for any n,k integers, if (n*n + k*k < 1000) then (f n k) is evaluated, otherwise it's unevaluated
> 1598744425 645703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77101&oldid=77100 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (-164) 10Undo revision 77100 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]])
< 1598744429 953100 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also do 'def f = [ 1 Y -> 2 | -> throw "error"'
< 1598744434 736544 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh.
< 1598744439 427300 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also do 'def f = [ 1 Y -> 2 | -> throw "error"]'
< 1598744452 912524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I'm asking about unevaluated with the same head
> 1598744454 357242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77102&oldid=77101 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+49) 10
< 1598744480 17615 :Heavpoot!5284dbd3@82-132-219-211.dab.02.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1598744492 807229 :Heavpoot!5284dbd3@82-132-219-211.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi are you all enjoying the plentiful spam made by all the edits to 1CP=1ICL
< 1598744493 594678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can match the head f of the returned unevaluated application later in another function's pattern list
< 1598744536 68495 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right. You want guards?
> 1598744538 962692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77103&oldid=77099 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+63) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598744540 206465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently you can't do that, instead you have to use a different head for the return
< 1598744546 810080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't want guards
< 1598744571 576439 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because with guards I can't reuse the same computation in the guard and return value
< 1598744627 59165 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about a means to just return `f 1 9` unevaluated? (Even after evaluation)
< 1598744634 855736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like imagine that n*n + k*k is slow to compute, and I want to return g (n*n + k*k) in the evaluated case
< 1598744653 639697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: what "means"
< 1598744686 586343 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like a flag that you just return an expression instead of an evaluated expression.
< 1598744706 790436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what mechanism or syntax it should use really
< 1598744711 993562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a stupid idea
< 1598744733 914651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably wouldn't even use it because I don't care that much about the symbolic thingy and unevaluated functions
< 1598744756 964587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might not ever use this, it just seems weird that you allow *some* functions that are sometimes evaluated, but not all of them
< 1598744762 316077 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah, I don't think there's much of a use case.
< 1598744773 832184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :user-defined functions that is
< 1598744786 670734 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I changed all builtin operators to throw exceptions because of that.
< 1598744795 503545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1598744804 499167 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., `1/0` now throws an exception.
< 1598744814 411500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about []/0
< 1598744817 614158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1598744824 135153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean how about {}/0
< 1598744829 603403 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exception too.
< 1598744831 44474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ()/1
< 1598744834 419039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1598744835 185182 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`badargs`
< 1598744836 604514 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :badargs`? No such file or directory
< 1598744843 170923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no more unevaluated thingies, great
< 1598744861 69589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe go the whole way and remove them from [] definitions too
< 1598744893 324191 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like if you have enough args to determine that none of the arms match, it raises an exception
< 1598744897 618612 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nono. Stuff can still get stuck. But all primitive combinators throw. And you'll need to be explicit about it if you want to throw yourself.
< 1598744914 742840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use [...|->] to be explicit
< 1598744920 443721 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1598744927 635235 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not?
< 1598744929 472068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know
< 1598744989 250722 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind-of neat for error reporting if you just get a stuck term. It helps over throwing so it's a bit of a two-edged decision.
> 1598745011 481565 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77104&oldid=77103 5* 03Tokigun 5* (+411) 10
< 1598745041 614824 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it leads to stupid infinite loops where you make a type error in the code but it's never detected because it just keeps manipulating everything symbolically
< 1598745049 811499 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1598745057 834320 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too.
> 1598745071 282570 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77105&oldid=77104 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+1428) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1598745098 240159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in normal code you have to add [... | _ _ _ -> throw badargs] with the right amount of arguments to every bracket
< 1598745103 754148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid that
< 1598745107 973797 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct.
< 1598745129 334691 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, what abonimation did I create?
< 1598745131 557030 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Halp!
< 1598745163 870192 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*abomination
< 1598745184 828071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an esolang, not an abomination
< 1598745205 973584 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. How does Lisp do it?
< 1598745214 634785 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is really weird.
< 1598745245 989211 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Fixed amount of arguments, pattern match later?
< 1598745290 126322 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well.
< 1598745355 965658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.oO( and then add mutability and vectors to turn it to a general purpose language core, and then a standard library )
< 1598745375 208609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, lisp functions are not curried
< 1598745379 720042 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I end up with python.
< 1598745381 95711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can be vararg
< 1598745402 41396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you invoke them with fewer params, it's not a partial invocation that yo ucan invoke
< 1598745406 714247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're thinking of haskell
< 1598745429 829267 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have unsafe mutation. Thinking about tossing in vectors too.
< 1598745452 386565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: no, you also need classes and methods and inheritence and data fields for that. for this one, I recommend just multiple dispatch multifunctions instead :-)
< 1598745466 599800 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Just leave it up to the programmer'. That always ends up well.
< 1598745483 408427 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave it to the standard library
< 1598745514 953562 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is that I rewrite DAGs. So mutation is inherently unsafe.
< 1598745537 304258 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's why you instead add a new mutable datatype
< 1598745543 960346 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mutate anything existing
< 1598745560 158562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a mutable reference, or a mutable vector, or both
< 1598745562 604972 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's no way out?
< 1598745568 273866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not?
< 1598745591 583155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly also mutable let bindings