< 1598918486 883491 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598919998 175968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniif_: no, I don't think I ever really talked about them. it's mostly the newer syntax additions, which I think are painfully inconsistent with the existing syntax, and I find that bad because I feel like the devs who introduced those extensions should have done a better work and give them better syntax. < 1598920022 849548 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't use Haskell these days so I mostly managed to swap out the details. < 1598920976 90397 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598921805 735050 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598921825 685042 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :egelbot: # some nonsense < 1598921831 742929 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :egelbot: 1+1 < 1598921831 866437 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 > 1598922821 605311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77173&oldid=77152 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+97) 10Categorization. > 1598922870 488938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77174&oldid=77173 5* 03RocketRace 5* (-4) 10 < 1598926224 245039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, somebody got a star on the IBM Ponder This August challenge... I had given up. I hope we'll get to see their approach and how much CPU time they invested. < 1598926271 786571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH the September challenge is surprisingly easy? < 1598926348 506417 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Starting with the fact that it only asks for examples, not for proofs :P) < 1598926588 166804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sank 5 full days of computation (but using only 6 cores) into the August challenge at 0 <= a,b,c <= 10 and all I have to show for it is that 11 <= optimum for 10 <= 13. I did settle the 0 <= a,b,c <= 9 case though. But I failed to find any useful heuristic for establishing lower bounds at all. < 1598926707 815918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The password of the month is juberous. < 1598926710 398735 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is juberous. < 1598926900 117524 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both Nim and Zig's sum types involve giving the type an explicit tag field. < 1598926911 475561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does this seem... unusua? < 1598926954 902035 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FWIW, if I had designed that challenge I would've given the star for finding the best known solution for 0 <= a,b,c <= 100. But maybe that's too spammy because people will just send every single improvement they find? I don't know.) < 1598926957 36069 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://nim-lang.org/docs/json.html#JsonNodeObj < 1598926980 861382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know, it doesn't seem unusual? < 1598926994 264237 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither Haskell nor Rust do it < 1598927017 612628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people coming from C will do it. < 1598927042 209730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the tag/union pattern. < 1598927102 987256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: To be clear, I think *neither* way is unusual. < 1598927163 142605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a serialization format, having the tags explicit may be useful, because it's easier for the programmer to understand when they change the underlying encoding. < 1598927352 11207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly example: In Haskell, if you drop a data constructor that was never used in practice, and also derive the serialization code, you may have trouble remaining backward compatible, because you usually do not assign your own tags then. < 1598929250 122249 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598935698 106901 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598935705 281821 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598935777 701837 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598938919 570979 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1598943622 893743 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598943784 188008 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1598946386 4565 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598947816 707977 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598947963 823803 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598949319 112211 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.69.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598949870 960438 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:946d:66e3:629e:349a JOIN :#esoteric < 1598950089 516467 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1598951365 40150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-17.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1598954966 807936 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 608 seconds < 1598955313 950551 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1598957041 978152 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598957463 14658 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598957680 58150 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1598957910 938779 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.69.64 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1598961297 788774 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598962311 331746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently) < 1598962440 894970 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also a name for the Game Boy (DMG-01), said to be short for Dot Matrix Game. < 1598962479 562636 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not as a file extension though. < 1598962503 531588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a pretty accurate description of what the Game Boy is. < 1598962518 41767 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Quit: This page is intentionally left blank. < 1598962558 573662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an era full of fixed graphics LCD display games. < 1598962573 770501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure what the proper term for that is) < 1598962638 310450 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1598962638 814343 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know what those are, but not what they're called. < 1598963106 789542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're just LCDs, or "custom LCD" if you want to stress that they're neither dot matrix nor boring 7 digit segment ones. < 1598963159 528935 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia has a page on the games... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_electronic_game < 1598963335 184708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a picture of a very clunky looking one... which was led based I guess? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKcd3WjuZhk < 1598963439 160425 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And 7 segment display based, not custom. Funny.) < 1598963443 464410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we had some of those Game & Watch ones. < 1598963533 728706 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mario_Bros._-_Game%26Watch_-_Nintendo.jpg I think, although that's not the greatest picture. < 1598963558 30733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's actually one of those displays... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display ...which went out of fashion before I really tried to understand technology. < 1598963811 88602 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah that page has this helpful (if not conclusive) bit: "This technology was also used from 1979 to the mid-1980s in portable electronic game units." < 1598963955 709546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was one with >2 screens (3 or 4), too, where the gameplay progressed from one to another, but that doesn't seem to have been a Game & Watch title. < 1598964128 271305 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, fizzie: it's tricky. there are handheld game consoles with one game with a built in custom LCD and a few buttons, some in watch form but most larger, eventually (but only after the Game Boy) even as complex ones as a real Tetris with a 20x10 block board with 3 LCD segments in each block; but there are also "mini-arcade" portable games that < 1598964128 649490 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are similar but have a passive chasis and a built-in display with a variety of technology; < 1598964191 890934 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also a lot of single-game TV game hardware that doesn't have a built-in display and you connect them to a TV like you'd connect a gaming console that uses cartirdges. < 1598964195 564390 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1598964214 834803 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598964246 729490 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot of miscellanious games that don't clearly fall into genres, including games that combine electronics with traditional mechanical elements and/or human-enforced rules < 1598964342 85458 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these latter still exist today, as chess computers that detect how you move the physical game pieces on a board, presumably using magnets, electronic darts games that detect where the dart hits, and carnival games that count how many times you kicked the ball into the goal or threw it into the hoop < 1598965636 330217 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1598965641 796275 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1598965802 467 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1598969470 141975 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598971099 24727 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598972499 68982 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Python][SAT] Toy package manager under 200 SLOC on top of SAT solver https://yurichev.com/news/20200901_pkg/ < 1598972683 811357 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598972825 809860 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598973698 176808 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...constraint satisfaction is an NP-problem? < 1598973771 574985 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...sounds like a reason not to build a package system that requires solving it < 1598973782 545095 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do that? < 1598973792 479636 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardlink everything? < 1598973859 37830 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just always use the newest version of everything and hope it works out < 1598973871 770262 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that does have obvious downsides < 1598973934 395644 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :take soname updates for instance - there's already something in place for side-by-side installation, it just has to be propagated to the package names < 1598973967 877144 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore version constraints aren't necessary < 1598974036 298303 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to install anything like a hundred times. and if you are unlucky, those don't share configs if they should or do share configs if they shouldn't < 1598974083 282620 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, one shouldn't have to install anything a hundred times if everything uses the latest version, and if not, then that's better compatibility than the state of things r/n < 1598974149 820542 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree < 1598974157 829450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :t20kdc: But in practice, packages lag behind, some versions are broken, possibly only for a few select problems... < 1598974169 781396 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :constraint satisfaction is in place it works < 1598974171 983775 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things become NP-hard sooner than you can blink < 1598974206 166329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :problems -> packages < 1598974206 415506 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every problem in CSP is either NP-complete or in P hth < 1598974212 18742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good Freudian slip, there. < 1598974229 238186 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSP = C_____ Salesman Problem ? < 1598974246 524821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: uh, misuse of "problem"? < 1598974260 832146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: constraint satisfaction problem < 1598974284 189119 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, confused salesdrone problem < 1598974296 779301 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that moving soname major versions to the package name means that nothing changes unless side-by-side support is required, where it's an improvement (it's already done for, say, LLVM in some distros) < 1598974300 565087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? drone < 1598974302 664285 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times. < 1598974388 381387 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar plans can be enacted in other places. if it makes the problem no longer NP-complete if applied sufficiently, I'm unsure, but it'd at least simplify things < 1598974397 582544 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : .dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently) => read that way too < 1598974431 340440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( brain.dmg ) < 1598974500 362477 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course in theory integrated support for side-by-side soname versions at package manager level is just as good for that specific improvement, just more complex < 1598974630 808964 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :t20kdc: enter diamonds... > 1598974656 467369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03HTTPSONION 5* 10New user account < 1598974670 168282 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A depends on B,C; B,C depend on D, in such a way that you need to use the same version of D for both) < 1598974697 324069 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there are always going to be failing situations, but this has less failing situations than the current state of "the app uses an ancient version of libpng and I can't run it" < 1598974766 406007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just feeding the idea that the question whether there is a working combination of packages, even if it can be accurately reflected in terms of versions, is naturally NP-hard. < 1598974845 624988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it is. I wouldn't necessarily want to use a general purpose SAT solver for this... but mostly because it's hard to obtain stable solutions from them. < 1598974852 994205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think.) < 1598974888 257593 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "simple package management" (for some definition of "simple") reduces to topological sort and I'm pretty sure topological sort is in P. But I'm equally confident that "practical package management" is not reducible to "simple package management", so. Not saying no to a SAT solver. < 1598974945 887181 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :topological sort package management is indeed what I was thinking of < 1598974958 653963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's mostly the versions that mess things up < 1598974997 672585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but there's also things like alternative dependencies (several libraries providing the same API... several tools serving the same purpose) < 1598975092 708229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and of course different versions may have different dependencies as well < 1598975105 296503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, depend on different packages) < 1598975531 121755 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If packages can have registered conflicts, and alternative dependencies, and there is some logic where it tries to avoid conflicts by trying alternatives -- sounds plausibly in NP to me < 1598975623 815653 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598977038 819963 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598977196 983258 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1598977333 511437 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1598977561 31675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598977591 149082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reminder that apt can be made to solve Sudoku (and probably exact cover problems in general) < 1598977817 594473 :ajdlkasd!~ajdlkasd@89.36.78.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598977817 887611 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how is the sudoku expressed? < 1598977925 220594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, dpkg, not apt < 1598977950 285161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking it up now < 1598978048 899747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20160304015611/http://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/ < 1598978179 281770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ^ < 1598978204 943859 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1598978552 951507 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, i learnt today of a bubblegum quine https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/210416 which linked to a zip quine < 1598978632 339775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be interesting to have an esolang which was a "more explicit" form of zip < 1598978642 999793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. human readable backreferences, copy lengths, etc. < 1598978652 891876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the zip quine was easier to fully appreciate < 1598978672 590237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure if "was" should be "were" there, normally I'm good with subjunctive grammar but this one flummoxes me) < 1598978686 304525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it should be "would be"? < 1598978811 267063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is apt, not dpkg < 1598978817 264514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was right first time < 1598978822 249181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so, dpkg doesn't do dependency management < 1598978842 98192 :ajdlkasd!~ajdlkasd@89.36.78.106 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598978861 2856 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598979064 96023 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1598979069 374901 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598979192 950651 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1598979310 292675 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, yeah, dpkg doesn't manage dependencies, it just complains about them < 1598979342 184786 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1598979358 448583 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-202-121.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1598979364 829512 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the primary problem with that is the huffman layer < 1598979691 669405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't have to replicate that, I doubt it's important to the quine's function < 1598979736 210777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1598981923 614674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982298 891805 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :*.net *.split < 1598982298 891864 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1598982299 529085 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1598982300 150342 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :*.net *.split < 1598982300 650422 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister QUIT :*.net *.split < 1598982315 121023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a really silly idea. TIDE CUBE. oceans have two simultaneous tides during a 24-hour rotation, one on the day side caused by the Sun's gravitational pull, one on the night side caused by the Moon's gravitational pull. the common men of the ancient world, who lived their life in harmony with nature, working outdoors as farmers or sailors, knew this correctly. they didn't know the cause, which is < 1598982321 125188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :understandable because they lived before Saint John told them about the four corners of Earth, so they invented such supernatural explanations as two giant sea monsters, Scylla and Charybdis, causing the tides. < 1598982392 13700 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982392 13753 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982392 13765 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982392 160463 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982392 160517 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982397 943879 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1598982422 285329 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598982572 30352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then a new elite rose, and instead of working, they leeched on the common man, shut themselves in ivory towers, and started to make theories, very rarely emerging to observe the real world and fact-check their theories. thus these people, Aristoteles and Erasthotenes, claimed that Earth was round. so did Columbus, who was more misguided because he had heard of the true teachings of the Bible and yet < 1598982578 99654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :contradicted them, and ordered common men how to build sailing ships on this principle, without having any actual practice in seafaring. he led his men on a false path, and would have perished if it weren't for a timely mutiny of his men taking the ships back to the straight path. < 1598982605 498395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Columbus, of course, denied this, and claimed that he went the impossible round path and arrived to the East by going to the West, but we know that his men managed to take him straight to the West. < 1598982658 405357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a physicist only works 8 hours a day, there's no way they can observe the two simultaneous tides in one day. < 1598982663 790122 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598982702 209965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus even today textbooks are full of incorrect explanations of tides. < 1598982831 749447 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, someone already has tidecube.com < 1598983117 345622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: yes, there's a well-known washing machine detergent brand called "Tide", and there are at least dishwasher detergents distributed as cubes, so it's not too far-fetched as a brand that they'd want to use < 1598983147 573992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be surprising if no domain name squatter bought such a nice short English compound word under .com < 1598983262 813373 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :funky, ssh 5.3 on port 26 < 1598984616 807290 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598985326 6064 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: my cheeks hurt, or my sanity, I don’t know which < 1598985362 342511 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(may I also suggest a TIE CUBE) < 1598985518 181531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. TIRE CUBE. Tires are actually cubical, it’s just our eyes have a peculiar malfunction regarding them, as do our other optical devices as they are produced to fit our eyes’ functions to a degree. Only a garbage-level camera may approach the true image of tires (but while doing this, tire to death and explode) < 1598985546 352583 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is no competition even for TIDE CUBE, though, yep < 1598985561 577564 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregarding the original < 1598985583 877802 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/disregarding/and not even regarding < 1598986130 206331 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1598987145 676789 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598987719 711457 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No `chr` function in sight. https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/uchar_8h.html < 1598987722 721103 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1598987734 457650 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHy not? < 1598987793 824415 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's hope it is since it's probably just a cast? < 1598987961 295754 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double u_getNumericValue ( UChar32 c ) < 1598987969 713591 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOps. Sorry for that. < 1598988236 44454 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598989747 969342 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1598991738 89173 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it's just a cast. < 1598992372 26985 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598992399 193505 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :egelbot: using String;; chr 0x1f994 < 1598992399 193590 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'🦔🦔' < 1598993405 726750 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598993452 333588 :egelbot!~egelbot@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598993481 554999 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1598993582 243008 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using libicu which uses utf-16 under water always surprises. Bug fixed. < 1598994009 559480 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a program deals with both UTF-8 and UTF-16, I would suggest implementing WTF-M-8. If it works with UTF-8 only, then I would suggest at least UTF-G-8. < 1598994035 348048 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too late. I already decided in the beginning on libicu. < 1598994049 295956 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how to implement all the voodoo otherwise. < 1598994062 282570 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, regexes. I wanted that too. < 1598994093 769025 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used PCRE for regular expressions. < 1598995464 610048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But PCRE expressions are not regular. < 1598995468 828914 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like magnet: URIs but for NNTP? Such a URI should include newsgroup name and message ID, and optionally timestamp, host/port, and hash value. (I suppose only message ID is really required, but newsgroup name is recommended too.) < 1598995489 979599 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, they do things that mathematical regular expressions don't do, although these features can often be useful. < 1598995913 110199 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( let’s call them irregular expressions ) < 1598995968 232829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the 'news' URI scheme, which (unlike the 'nntp' scheme) can indicate either a specific article (via message ID), or a specific set of newsgroups (by name, with wildcards) optionally indicating a server. < 1598995979 540992 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't think it can *both* provide a message ID and any of that other useful data (newsgroup, server, timestamp) that would make locating the message easier. It's a sad omission. < 1598996019 95531 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a regular expression library with conjunction and negation. < 1598996078 477072 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, that is why I wanted it, due to that limitation. < 1598996168 837432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: would that actually help with http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html ? < 1598996213 998903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1598996220 140766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Make the expression shorter? I'm not sure. < 1598996227 778571 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet there are other, easier features that would make it shorter. < 1598996246 128142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the minimal NFA for that expression look like? < 1598996288 599522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, such as perl's feature that lets you copy a subexpression by reference. that would make it very short, because it lets you encode the, I think, 42 states of the regex and all paths among them. < 1598996313 886883 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1598996376 973964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blog.tanyakhovanova.com/2009/08/divisibility-by-7-is-a-walk-on-a-graph-by-david-wilson/ is pretty small. < 1598996387 840942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think there are 42 states (or 43 if you don't want to accept the empty string as a valid representation of zero), namely 7 for the reminder classes modulo 7 of the part of the number you've seen, times 6 for the 6 different positions < 1598996444 277156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm ok, then I guess I'm wrong, you only need 7 states? I dunno < 1598997476 597556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you need 7 states when reading from left to right, but 42 states when reading from right to left < 1598997603 902238 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598997673 857343 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1598998420 598093 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598998438 988941 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1598998835 993803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need 7 either way? < 1598998847 428226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: dunno < 1598998853 147589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you don't need the extra power you get from complement to implement this. < 1598998863 216155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By extra power I mean an extra exponential to turn an AFA into a DFA. > 1598999561 994694 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77175&oldid=77148 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+69) 10 < 1599001745 423452 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1599001885 347046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you only need 7 states no matter what < 1599001913 79597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah. I was just wrong < 1599001957 438239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :things get more interesting when gcd(d,b) > 1, where d is the number you're dividing by and b is the base. < 1599002021 627920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in dividing by 8? < 1599002059 867829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in base 10 I mean < 1599002142 445041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, hmm. Divisibility by 8 needs 8 states either way. But from left to right it's just remainders; from right to left, you get 1 + 4 + 2 + 1 states, and maybe one more rejecting state depending on the flavor of DFA. < 1599002213 399680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That flavor depends on whether a DFA is allowed to be partial or not) < 1599002322 798837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, I'm doing this wrong. < 1599002475 936255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 states are enough going from left to right. We have to keep track of whether it's divisible by 8. And then we need the remainder modulo 4. < 1599002504 702950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and only one of those remainders allows the number to be divisible by 8, so it's 4+1 = 5 states) < 1599002631 731363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think you also don't need all the remainders from left to right. it doesn't matter which odd number your number starts with < 1599002639 721007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, that's what you said < 1599002641 543324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how that diagram came to look so crappy (there's some odd outstanding pixels on the ellipse boundaries, for example) < 1599002662 651530 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Oh right. < 1599002684 906681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it only like four states? < 1599002689 795830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's some more collapse. < 1599002715 268601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :four states are: odd, divisible by 2 but not by 4, divisible by 4 but not by 8, divisible by 8 < 1599002727 19277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all you need left to right < 1599002742 311701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One state for each for remainders 1/3/5/7, 2/6, 4, and 0. < 1599002770 834276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that... no, I got it right. < 1599002778 987861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 is not divisible by 8; 32 is. < 1599002786 754484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 1 and 3 cannot be in the same state. < 1599002798 366625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1599002807 706059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :drat < 1599002913 504553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, only 4096 characters. < 1599002930 218276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, no. Pasting went wrong. < 1599002986 687934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 16233. So the 10793 I have is better :-) < 1599003133 188078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a regular expression testing divisibility by 7. Mine even excludes the empty string... for free (you can just replace the * at the end by +) < 1599003147 791444 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-178.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: post it as a comment then > 1599004039 516101 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77176&oldid=77175 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+156) 10 > 1599004058 982009 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conveyer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77177&oldid=77176 5* 03Abbin21 5* (+2) 10/* How it works */