> 1599524992 12794 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0705AB1E14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77350&oldid=77338 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (-21) 10 < 1599527372 922692 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kzhcaqcsdoponxwy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1599529651 928555 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@172.243.83.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599529657 900040 :Frater_EST!adrianbibl@172.243.83.76 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1599535561 974345 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1599536521 92189 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@172.243.83.76 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1599538882 885928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: so... glucose is the only improvement, everything else made matters worse ;) < 1599539154 629634 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric > 1599540221 200880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:SunnyMoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77351&oldid=77317 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+192) 10 < 1599541090 186339 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1599541212 95090 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599542803 970856 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1599545851 119518 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1599549527 320101 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599551104 877383 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1599551542 195042 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1599551543 422842 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1599551575 108784 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f111:cc0:e1:201a JOIN :#esoteric < 1599551727 622973 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:10d0:6feb:c200:ae66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1599551865 319829 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1599552590 120116 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1599552723 857403 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1599553111 556802 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1599553271 820500 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn’t the weather nice < 1599553640 980304 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m disposing of my old C++, HTML, CSS, JS, Delphi and something books putting them away to do something later. Shame they almost surely aren’t interesting to anyone for some time, as there are internet resources aplenty < 1599553692 523623 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C++ ones weren’t even about any of the modern language standards < 1599553727 625223 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :even at their printing dates :( < 1599553980 15038 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe their authors thought the differences are minor and mainly surface-level, or maybe those were the times so even they weren’t knowledgeable enough. There wasn’t much choice in bookstores on really interesting topics, and I was wise to cease going there to search something programming-related long ago. But not too long ago to have no dead weight on the shelf > 1599554801 916887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77352&oldid=77344 5* 03Keymaker 5* (+205) 10Reply. > 1599554907 173464 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77353&oldid=77352 5* 03Keymaker 5* (+238) 10Another reply. < 1599555144 214788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices < 1599555177 578932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't really do anything with them unless you need a doorstopper < 1599555202 753524 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1599555245 778745 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kindling for a fire < 1599555289 173544 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: BTW have it ended well for that monitor with sticky buttons? < 1599555289 173600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Fahrenheit 451 < 1599555347 881127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: probably yes. on thursday and friday it seemed to be working fine. it will need a few more days of testing, but right now I'm a bit ill so I'm working from home, so I can't tell for sure yet < 1599555372 237752 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : kindling for a fire => they really picked an interesting word to name their ebook readers, yeah < 1599555409 350670 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh < 1599555425 375790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to work in the office, and would be if this was last year < 1599555462 778778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but right now both my boss and my supervisor told me very clearly that we are not to work in while we are ill < 1599555471 885253 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either I can work from home, or not at all < 1599555480 345382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that’s for the best if it’s quiet at home < 1599555535 950516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not a too tenable position, if I always have to work from home when I'm a bit ill, then I miss too much in the office, but there's not much I can do now < 1599555550 961732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I have no kids < 1599555597 793774 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they say a cold is not as severe if one’s moving not too much and can be in comfort temperature-wise < 1599555614 228127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'll be afk for a bit, I actually have to run into the office now because I left the mouse in there. I knew I had to bring the mouse, but somehow messed it up when I packed the notebook. probably concentrated on making sure that I bring the HDMI cable. < 1599555627 491897 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1599555649 688884 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though for something flu-like that would be more of a necessity, to avoid complications like bacteria etc < 1599555669 245923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Well, Google used "Nexus" for their android device brand, which is a very interesting literary reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F < 1599555681 284812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm going to buy a new non-work computer for home, I'll tell about it later < 1599555705 790267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm both excited and a bit terrified because now I know approximately how much it will cost, even though the order isn't finalized yet < 1599555746 167952 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wish you luck for all of that combined! < 1599555795 483154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1599555827 669137 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh, I didn’t remember they were called Nexus there < 1599556105 375912 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/remember/know/; I even didn’t watch the movie adaptation but heard of all that < 1599556202 54834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only discovered this a few years ago when reading the novel. < 1599558149 60755 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there exists a universal turing machine < 1599558184 226925 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1599558185 650904 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice! < 1599558241 393141 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume we can decide halting with a turing machine, then define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T)) { loop(); } else { return; } < 1599558258 723863 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I couldn’t contain myself; this wasn’t intended to look snarky so if it ended up being such, sorry) < 1599558261 362326 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices <--- I remember when I was first learning C from a textbook my dad used at uni < 1599558264 74095 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we get a contradiction again? Halts(Lie(Lie(Lie(...))) ?? < 1599558277 643805 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I need to define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T(T))) { loop(); } else { return; } < 1599558288 378356 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gave a Hello World relying on very architecture-specific undefined behaviour < 1599558318 445190 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can case on Halts(Lie(Lie)): if it does it doesn't if it doesn't it does < 1599558345 371542 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we can recursively enumerate the turing machines that do halt < 1599558402 384295 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now suppose there is a turing machine that determines if a turing machine that takes an input halts on all of its inputs < 1599558429 229598 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AlwaysHalts(TM) = TM(0) halts and TM(1) halts and etc.. < 1599558446 975726 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? < 1599558482 213957 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly AlwaysHalts lets us implement halts, just make a turing machine that drops its input and executes a TM that takes no input < 1599558549 612097 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can enumerate all halting TMs, so we can use the universal TM with that to construct a turing machine with input n that executes the n'th turing machine that halts I think? And AlwaysHalts is true of this < 1599558606 914912 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it really does seem to be stronger, as there are infinitely many inputs and we can’t prove a TM halts for all of them in finite time… < 1599558606 914968 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense that Halts wouldn't be able to answer this question, since if you wanted to tweak it to have no input you could maybe have it execute every halting TM in sequence < 1599558612 970049 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that wouldn't halt even though every single TM would halt < 1599558616 379102 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isn't a proof < 1599558635 595935 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1599558644 247976 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we do another simple Liar type construction? < 1599558667 820136 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? <-- show that AlwaysHalts is only recursively enumerable *even if* you have an oracle that answers Halts for you < 1599558699 282558 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that < 1599558727 78746 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like Liar but that calls the oracle might work < 1599558757 734768 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one needs to show that its complement is not enumerable hm < 1599558839 663135 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) < 1599558926 842780 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like we could enumerate these: we would loop over n and make sure the n'th turing machine doesn't halt. So this language is the union of NthLoops(0) u NthLoops(1) u ... < 1599558945 713220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you know any compliments? < 1599558945 835201 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in drscheme random works for me... i am not very good < 1599558948 915165 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) => yep < 1599559036 915869 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: don’t be so shy < 1599559037 60476 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: okay, now what would happen < 1599559181 798819 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: but again we wouldn’t get the negative answer is finite time? < 1599559197 26508 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in* < 1599559246 550579 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-117.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 > 1599559712 148318 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77354&oldid=77328 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+271) 10 > 1599559739 923767 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77355&oldid=75742 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+280) 10/* Simple game ("Less or More") */ Added another version I created < 1599560302 636054 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1599560320 585924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DGCK81LNN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77356 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+658) 10Created page with "Hi, my username is quite confusing and you can call me Roy. I'm from China and I'm kinda addicted in in [[Befunge]] these days. __NOTOC__ ==== A [[Befunge]] program that creat..." > 1599560372 429914 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DGCK81LNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77357&oldid=77356 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+0) 10 > 1599560894 184360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DGCK81LNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77358&oldid=77357 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+594) 10 < 1599562028 495138 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1599562036 871263 :hakatashi2!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric > 1599563128 95796 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:SunnyMoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77359&oldid=77351 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+161) 10Answer alert! < 1599564826 253410 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1599564829 376579 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really get this < 1599564841 594501 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i willl try some scribbling later > 1599566283 772195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77360 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+27) 10Redirection. > 1599566367 647557 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77361&oldid=77353 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+118) 10Done! < 1599566506 442763 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1599570148 481961 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1599570169 916849 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1599571625 58131 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1599575772 427065 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Supyovalk 5* 10New user account > 1599576170 573522 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77362&oldid=77354 5* 03Supyovalk 5* (+153) 10/* Introductions */ > 1599576208 805934 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77363&oldid=77362 5* 03Supyovalk 5* (+90) 10 > 1599576262 251035 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Binary to unary conversion14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77364&oldid=74696 5* 03Supyovalk 5* (+218) 10/* Examples in programming languages */ > 1599576349 51281 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07T14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77365 5* 03Lebster 5* (+110) 10Created page with "T is a work-in-progress esolang being created by [[user:Lebster]]. The project started in early september 2020" > 1599576390 683498 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Lebster14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=75987 5* 03Lebster 5* (+110) 10/* Created Languages */ > 1599576392 111578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Binary to unary conversion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77367&oldid=77364 5* 03Supyovalk 5* (-35) 10/* Phyton 3.0 - removed useless print lines*/ < 1599578122 91642 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1599579908 884495 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1599580750 374417 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1599582012 392544 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1599582367 975996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77368&oldid=77355 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (-1) 10/* Simple game ("Less or More") */ < 1599584275 306853 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599584389 111200 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1599584446 357871 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1599586303 31871 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:8d3f:64d1:78b3:7501 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599586521 53948 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f111:cc0:e1:201a QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1599587368 41121 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1599589174 474687 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any updates on turing machines? < 1599589341 31275 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: IDK, I’m dumb today < 1599589452 568859 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I woke up earlier to receive a midi keyboard I ordered and it arrived only just a twenty minutes ago :D < 1599589470 395717 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :logistic difficultes < 1599589482 725662 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fun! > 1599589491 482869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Baguette 5* 10New user account < 1599589521 105542 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I’ll read a bit of webfiction, go sleeping and only tomorrow unpack this thing and check if everything’s alright < 1599589532 992642 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> A machine with an oracle for the halting problem can determine whether particular Turing machines will halt on particular inputs, but they cannot determine, in general, whether machines equivalent to themselves will halt < 1599589535 192625 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:129: error: :1:129: error: parse error on input ‘,’ < 1599589536 907381 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is understable < 1599589544 573934 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a good night! < 1599589626 552438 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: yeah, I have a fluttering mood a couple of days now, I hope I’ll restart making some music, maybe I’ll be able to explore microtonality (though the 12edo keyboard is not as optimal, it’s still way better than nothing!) < 1599589673 775015 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, have a good night also when you’ll go to sleep! < 1599589699 976681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully there would be absolutely no defects > 1599589721 44544 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77369&oldid=77363 5* 03Baguette 5* (+392) 10/* Introductions */ < 1599589727 700811 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m a bit anxious when it comes to buying things of this scale > 1599589745 536990 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77370&oldid=77369 5* 03Baguette 5* (+1) 10/* Introductions */ < 1599591082 689899 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/apu_yokai/status/1303308968521940994 < 1599591088 407327 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make nand gates out of physical linkages < 1599591172 103508 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh neat < 1599591243 159151 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, i got an ad for this toy the other day https://www.turingtumble.com/ < 1599591337 490744 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I remember when they were doing the Kickstarter for that, I believe someone came up with a simulator not long after < 1599591402 623446 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can make nand gates out of physical linkages => wow, and relatively simple! < 1599591424 16624 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1599591432 757962 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg thats so awesom < 1599591844 34993 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1599592063 390764 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:c94:a2fd:66b9:2386 JOIN :#esoteric < 1599592122 211729 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds a bit of Turing trains or what were they called > 1599593462 555012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77371 5* 03Baguette 5* (+2137) 10Create the SCREAMCODE page > 1599593562 837231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77372&oldid=76864 5* 03Baguette 5* (+75) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */ > 1599593829 671076 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Baguette14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77373 5* 03Baguette 5* (+84) 10Created page with "I'm an 18-year-old Computer Science student, and the loser that made [[SCREAMCODE]]." < 1599594010 423011 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can talk about recognition and acceptance of languages > 1599594258 533943 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77374&oldid=77371 5* 03Baguette 5* (+155) 10 > 1599595160 853157 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77375&oldid=77374 5* 03Baguette 5* (+34) 10Specify tape size < 1599595219 949808 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.10.181.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1599595287 696419 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that linkage thing is hella neat. < 1599595312 114246 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cr31.co.uk/stagecast/trains/tt0_intro.html <-- the turing trains thing. < 1599595372 779571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Openttd, and I was just thinking of it because I think there's some unexplored eso-potential for building the same logic circuits in a less efficient way > 1599595563 218277 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Baguette14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77376 5* 03Baguette 5* (+50) 10Created page with "If you want, you can email me at baguette@SDF.ORG." > 1599595932 427731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77377&oldid=77315 5* 03Baguette 5* (+17) 10/* S */ > 1599595966 394481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77378&oldid=77375 5* 03Baguette 5* (+28) 10 < 1599596277 823341 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did some crude OpenTTD logic gates back some 15 years ago, and probably talked about them here. < 1599596399 978361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is that before or after path-based signals? < 1599596472 117591 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on the dot, more or less. NPF ("New Pathfinding") was in the trunk, but not in any release. It did rely on that. < 1599596480 786510 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic if you're interested. < 1599596515 565942 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, maybe it predates path signals and just relies on pre-signals. < 1599596547 747058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, pre-signals are much older, they come from ttdpatch < 1599596560 109837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most logic relies on pre-signals or path-based signals < 1599596570 999104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of it relies on at least some pre-signals < 1599596587 849443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you use path signals, pre-signals are needed for some parts of the logic < 1599596631 332496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I admit there's still a lot that I don't understand about openttd logic < 1599596653 781453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The path signals follow a different concept and were first introduced with OpenTTD version 0.7." Okay, it's before that, because the writeup mentions 0.4.0.1 as the most recent release. < 1599596662 647638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because all the tutorials and coop savegames have horribly large complicated examples, not small minimal constructions to demonstrate one thing and only tha < 1599596769 175962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The image is rather big: a 1450x708px PNG" ah yes, that is old. < 1599596822 803597 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it really counted as that big any more, TBH. < 1599596914 430622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far the openttd games that I play don't incorporate any specific logic, that is, there are signals to make trains run smoothly, but no specific tracks and signals and trains just for logic, not even the simple priority crossing < 1599596922 295827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this might chnage < 1599596958 271982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I manage to understand how logic works, I'll probably add eso-logic that makes the trains less efficient in effect, but more fun to watch < 1599597535 750487 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:c94:a2fd:66b9:2386 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1599598215 993797 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1599599745 355156 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 JOIN :#esoteric > 1599599868 669302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Godelfish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77379 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+24) 10redirect from ascii < 1599599872 122729 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is an entire channel for esolangs? < 1599599886 16249 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have actually been working on an esolang as a dare < 1599599895 109615 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A RISC assembly with only 8 bit instructions < 1599599903 567595 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 8 bit opcodes like the 6502 < 1599599909 635717 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 bit instructions < 1599599909 756537 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets weirder from here. < 1599599933 393441 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can modify brainfuck to RISC and get 4 bit instructions < 1599599940 918425 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually not really an esolang < 1599599956 417380 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put quite a bit of effort to cram the most useful stuff into 256 instructions < 1599599983 215266 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should try making one with a 6 bit instruction width < 1599599990 863032 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all programs will be in base 64 < 1599600058 949480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome oshaboy < 1599600061 896247 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1599600076 617189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there's an entire channel. but it doesn't always stay on topic. < 1599600112 826650 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://docs.google.com/document/d/13043UrFZGNRNyHOM0GJprrVCFdFIiRqx05xet2FEQSM/edit?usp=sharing < 1599600116 821950 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here are the details < 1599600124 420047 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made some room for 7 more instructions < 1599600131 492644 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think I should add? < 1599600308 675879 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1599601734 242598 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77380&oldid=77378 5* 03Baguette 5* (+20) 10 > 1599602015 417189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77381&oldid=77380 5* 03Baguette 5* (+28) 10 > 1599602253 703155 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77382&oldid=77381 5* 03Baguette 5* (-15) 10 < 1599602350 586376 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1599602354 504525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: that seems like it only has a very inefficient way to load an immediate to a register. you need like six instructions for it, unless I'm missing something. < 1599602425 63258 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: also I don't understand how you have a "SUB AX,BY" macro that expands to "SUB X,Y" when there doesn't seem to be an instruction or macro "SUB X,Y" < 1599602588 529832 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1599602835 170984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: have you considered restricting some of those instructions in favor of being able to load an immediate byte more efficiently, since that's useful and you only have indirect jumps; or cheating by adding an instruction that loads from the immediate byte after the instruction and skips that byte; or at least cheating with PC-relative addresses like in PDP-8? < 1599602938 284815 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Talked with them about it earlier < 1599602950 681955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: also I don't understand how jumps farther than 128 bytes work, since all the branch instructions seem to have only short offsets < 1599602951 299686 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're strongly opposed to immediates of any form for some reason. < 1599602985 640463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since the code doesn't seem very compact, you will need a lot of far jumps < 1599602998 882745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you supposed to set up a jump ladder like once every 120 bytes? < 1599603015 473659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also have you written any example programs and interpreter? < 1599603017 991676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i SUB AX,BY = AB SUB X,Y < 1599603039 681026 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc they've done neither? < 1599603056 613604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :having all of LDIFF, SUBF, and FLIPF seems rather redundant < 1599603602 163516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I guess I just don't know what counts as a "RISC" here. if I really wanted to build something low-level with 8-bit opcodes, I'd make it full cisc. < 1599603630 757027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure how much you need to be able to call it "RISC", so I can't give good advice. < 1599603700 264862 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, loading immidiates is quite inefficient, but I doubt there is a better way < 1599603721 557886 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the psuedo ops are based on an older instruction set, I didn't update them < 1599603807 352719 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: There is LONGJUMP < 1599603834 848027 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absolute < 1599603856 156695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1599603917 348295 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well if I have a loader of the next byte it isn't really an 8 bit instruction, is it < 1599603963 331344 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said "cheat" < 1599603967 112065 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also how often do you need an immediate that requires more than 3 bits set? < 1599603971 310863 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*immideate < 1599603978 212170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: often, if that's how you can short jump[ < 1599604009 150895 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't spell < 1599604025 748234 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point < 1599604049 269418 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can also store an immiditi you use often in memory < 1599604064 792343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: how do you load it though? you have to load the address first < 1599604108 917726 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I will add an unconditional skip so you can sneak bytes into the code < 1599604290 180159 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you do xor x,x; set; putf x,1; memory a,x; skip; byte 0xaa; < 1599604346 930927 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I think it is easier to just do xor a,a; set; putf a,1; putf a,3; putf a,5; putf a,7 < 1599604359 514550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oshaboy: that's hardly an improvement, you can already load anything with just five or six instructions I think < 1599604376 289213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean any byte < 1599604407 788356 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think bit sets are enough < 1599604420 681270 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ldi is a bit cheating < 1599604438 912782 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :requires 2 clock cycles on a theoretical processor < 1599604494 307366 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually on RISC the only commands that require more than 1 cycle are memory and branch instructions < 1599604501 749253 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is kind of an esolang anyway < 1599604512 495669 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so weird implementation is kind of a given < 1599604544 911418 :oshaboy!~oshaboy@77.138.190.250 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1599604865 790666 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at y'all talking about processor cycles and stuff that takes nanoseconds. I'm jelly. < 1599605167 93010 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1599605273 272214 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: looking at their instruction set, they have a fatal flaw with the whole "RISC" thing anyways: < 1599605292 652456 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more complex to implement than a proper RISC < 1599605345 531478 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1599605606 924400 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1599605793 802893 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a version of the "Fixed" fonts with DEC encodings and other encodings? < 1599605905 284206 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With what I have, some characters will not work.) < 1599605907 733168 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: monospace font? < 1599605964 464216 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and specifically bitmap font too < 1599606009 429318 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: which encodings? DEC has multiple < 1599606054 446913 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them. < 1599606092 180319 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, unicode fonts should support most things...? < 1599606122 954828 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1599606159 180555 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun, Unicode is missing some from DEC Technical < 1599606160 866185 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they don't. For one thing, the DEC Technical character set is not supported. < 1599606188 891970 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem characters are 31 through 37, rest have unicode equivs < 1599606232 509207 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :those in particular < 1599606243 189682 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could solve by making your own font data in the private use area < 1599606256 364618 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having some translation method < 1599606268 524047 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although I do not want a Unicode encoded font, but rather a font encoded using the DEC encoding < 1599606306 125792 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if anything even would support such a font < 1599606312 716810 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the usecase? < 1599606316 708295 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on what software? < 1599606328 758097 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Conversion between Unicode and other encodings is not always lossless anyways) < 1599606335 291963 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to make a better terminal emulator. < 1599606357 224430 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you might need to develop the font yourself < 1599606385 853251 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :best way to do that would be to render unicode characters and make good use of the private use area, imo < 1599606394 178089 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the character properties between Unicode and other character sets do not always match, either) < 1599606455 877677 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUA can have whatever properties you want < 1599606534 500072 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you tell programs to use them though? As far as I know, I have not seen any such thing. < 1599606555 208352 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Your terminal emulator is presumably the only thing that'd use it, internally, to make font handling easier < 1599606589 804873 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :would let you use an existing font renderer < 1599606698 694774 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :X has font rendering < 1599606745 655644 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :X font rendering probably shouldn't be used. It's effectively deprecated, like the rest of X that's not just frame buffers < 1599606774 450147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't people still use Xft? < 1599606776 273676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1599606792 694371 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much everything uses freetype and other renderers directly in a framebuffer < 1599606823 820069 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I prefer to use bitmap fonts instead, and I think the X font rendering is suitable < 1599606856 111417 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want bitmap, implement it yourself, it's very simple for monospace. Xft is on it's last legs. < 1599606872 380801 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then freetype supports bitmap < 1599606879 423672 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean Xft; I mean the X core font rendering < 1599606936 884293 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :X core font rendering is extremely legacy < 1599607012 867378 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. < 1599607044 265314 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something is included with distributions solely for compatibility reasons, you probably shouldn't use it < 1599607056 604947 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be writing modern legacy software < 1599607146 621126 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been legacy since 2000 < 1599607161 43794 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably a bit earlier than that < 1599607201 788850 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's better for future compatibility to not depend on old X11 features < 1599607252 437875 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently, Wayland is starting to make it's way into being the default windowing environment for some distributions < 1599607271 796224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wayland just seems worse than X. < 1599607290 698303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure hope people don't settle on it. < 1599607352 841341 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still use X and do not want to use Wayland. Would there be a way to display Wayland programs inside of a X window though (each one in its own window)? < 1599607371 389074 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programs will likely support both for a long time < 1599607390 669935 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people use wrappers for handling window initialization/framebuffers so their stuff works on all platforms < 1599607455 999806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote Xlib code and it was a little clunky but overall it worked OK. < 1599607467 975847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I tried to port my thing to Wayland and it was so unpleasant I just gave up. < 1599607493 749767 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I use rust, I'm usually using Winit or a similar wrapper that handles the details for me. For C/C++ there's SDL2 < 1599607582 466063 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SDL is OK until it doesn't do something you want. < 1599607604 191882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if a platform API is good, it should be usable directly. < 1599607615 329266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wayland's excuse "everyone just uses GTK anyway" is ridiculous. < 1599607629 863919 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The excuse for only doing client-side decorations.) < 1599607659 373810 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes use SDL1, for some things. < 1599607687 334044 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like GTK much though; I like some of the features of Xaw, which newer libraries don't do < 1599607717 686135 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: xdg-decoration was added for this. Either way I do agree Wayland isn't ideal < 1599607720 320461 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it does not seem to be able to configure GTK to work like Xaw < 1599607725 838135 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also best to not depend on old X11 features < 1599607739 37507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which old X11 features? < 1599607748 316757 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :X core font in zzo38's case < 1599607765 317930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Maybe? < 1599607835 615533 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: per Xorg's info on fonts: `While X.Org continues to maintain the core fonts system, client software authors are encouraged to switch to Xft as soon as possible.` < 1599607852 640778 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's either xft, or using freetype/etc like most of the ecosystem < 1599607900 442746 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Yes, I know that, and I don't want to use that. I specifically want to use non-Unicode bitmap fonts. < 1599607943 87312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad text rendering is incredibly complicated. < 1599607950 782186 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use bitmap fonts though. And refusing to use Unicode will get you into a host of issues, tbh < 1599607968 276957 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the kind of situation private use areas were allocated for < 1599607986 629016 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to be able to redefine font data though, which I believe some terminals can do < 1599607993 244874 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be better off drawing the font yourself < 1599608028 805463 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and a different set of issues than refusing to use stuff other than Unicode. It depends on the application. Unicode is helpful for displaying web pages, for one thing. For many things it just gets in the way though. < 1599608095 910924 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PUA only partially helps. It causes its own set of problems.) < 1599608131 623522 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, of course, for some thing is very good idea to avoid homoglyph attacks.) < 1599608227 917547 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my goal was high compat with DEC terminals, i'd implement the font rendering myself, and store character data as u16s with a UTF-8 mapping available to convert it as needed < 1599608267 806290 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which, on that note, a high compat terminal is in my interest, working on VAX emulation and all) < 1599608433 194676 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem with using Unicode for terminal emulation is the need for character property tables. (I designed my own encoding for terminal emulation (and not for anything else; it is for one use only) that gets rid of the need for character property tables.) < 1599608437 522177 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What terminals does VAX use? < 1599608445 182870 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :various VTs < 1599608486 881937 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :for system consoles, it's a custom terminal, iirc VAX-11/780's is a PDP-11/terminal hybrid that handles the whole bootstrap process alongside being a way to interface with the machine < 1599608546 509789 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did think is VT, being DEC VAX, but that doesn't tell me which one. Also, is there a document for the terminal codes for the system consoles? < 1599608587 623005 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :System consoles have an entirely custom, machine dependent bus. It's not worth the time trying to emulate them separately from the VAX itself < 1599608599 294907 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the VTs used: all of them. It's a super-mini, you can hook whatever to it < 1599608653 659479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-126.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, where did you hide the body? < 1599608653 905727 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: anything else i could do it in bf: fnord/ fnord/ fr-wiki-data and i just asked < 1599608670 791079 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs 780 maint handbook real quick  < 1599608704 840329 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I expected as much, but which were common (or were all DEC terminals common)? Even if it is not worth trying to emulate the system consoles separately from the VAX itself, still would be helpful to know what the codes are, both to write software for VAX and just being curious to compare them. < 1599608706 678085 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1599608706 846587 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube < 1599608718 8918 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ukparl < 1599608718 136932 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) < 1599608739 215266 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :codes are the same as a normal VT system. VT220, VT340, etc, were all common. Just look at the most common VTs and you'll know the most common for use with VAX :P < 1599608829 71031 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so they are the same codes, even if it is a custom terminal. < 1599608829 216606 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :VAX-11/780's system console is connected by a 30 pin cable to a card in the cabinet, for example. No point in emulating that < 1599608832 572806 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1599608894 259170 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there probably is no point emulating VAX system console except for emulating VAX itself. < 1599608930 217281 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as the 780 system console basically has direct access to the ucode pathways, so it'd be abstracted away in any sane emulator < 1599609145 99816 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've looked into implementing a ucode level 780 emulator and it looks like quite a large task, and it'd have terrible performance < 1599609147 964227 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :for little gain < 1599609154 947645 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds