←2020-08 2020-09 2020-10→ ↑2020 ↑all
2020-09-01
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00:26:38 <b_jonas> arseniif_: no, I don't think I ever really talked about them. it's mostly the newer syntax additions, which I think are painfully inconsistent with the existing syntax, and I find that bad because I feel like the devs who introduced those extensions should have done a better work and give them better syntax.
00:27:02 <b_jonas> but I don't use Haskell these days so I mostly managed to swap out the details.
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00:57:05 <spruit11> egelbot: # some nonsense
00:57:11 <spruit11> egelbot: 1+1
00:57:11 <egelbot> 2
01:13:41 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77173&oldid=77152 * RocketRace * (+97) Categorization.
01:14:30 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77174&oldid=77173 * RocketRace * (-4)
02:10:24 <int-e> Wow, somebody got a star on the IBM Ponder This August challenge... I had given up. I hope we'll get to see their approach and how much CPU time they invested.
02:11:11 <int-e> OTOH the September challenge is surprisingly easy?
02:12:28 <int-e> (Starting with the fact that it only asks for examples, not for proofs :P)
02:16:28 <int-e> I sank 5 full days of computation (but using only 6 cores) into the August challenge at 0 <= a,b,c <= 10 and all I have to show for it is that 11 <= optimum for 10 <= 13. I did settle the 0 <= a,b,c <= 9 case though. But I failed to find any useful heuristic for establishing lower bounds at all.
02:18:27 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is juberous.
02:18:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is juberous.
02:21:40 <Sgeo> Both Nim and Zig's sum types involve giving the type an explicit tag field.
02:21:51 <Sgeo> Why does this seem... unusua?
02:22:34 <int-e> (FWIW, if I had designed that challenge I would've given the star for finding the best known solution for 0 <= a,b,c <= 100. But maybe that's too spammy because people will just send every single improvement they find? I don't know.)
02:22:37 <Sgeo> https://nim-lang.org/docs/json.html#JsonNodeObj
02:23:00 <int-e> Sgeo: I don't know, it doesn't seem unusual?
02:23:14 <Sgeo> Neither Haskell nor Rust do it
02:23:37 <int-e> But people coming from C will do it.
02:24:02 <int-e> Because of the tag/union pattern.
02:25:02 <int-e> Sgeo: To be clear, I think *neither* way is unusual.
02:26:03 <int-e> For a serialization format, having the tags explicit may be useful, because it's easier for the programmer to understand when they change the underlying encoding.
02:29:12 <int-e> Silly example: In Haskell, if you drop a data constructor that was never used in practice, and also derive the serialization code, you may have trouble remaining backward compatible, because you usually do not assign your own tags then.
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12:11:51 <int-e> .dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently)
12:14:00 <fizzie> It's also a name for the Game Boy (DMG-01), said to be short for Dot Matrix Game.
12:14:39 <fizzie> Maybe not as a file extension though.
12:15:03 <int-e> That is a pretty accurate description of what the Game Boy is.
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12:15:58 <int-e> In an era full of fixed graphics LCD display games.
12:16:13 <int-e> (not sure what the proper term for that is)
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12:17:18 <fizzie> Yeah, I know what those are, but not what they're called.
12:25:06 <int-e> I guess they're just LCDs, or "custom LCD" if you want to stress that they're neither dot matrix nor boring 7 digit segment ones.
12:25:59 <int-e> Wikipedia has a page on the games... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_electronic_game
12:28:55 <int-e> With a picture of a very clunky looking one... which was led based I guess? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKcd3WjuZhk
12:30:39 <int-e> (And 7 segment display based, not custom. Funny.)
12:30:43 <fizzie> I think we had some of those Game & Watch ones.
12:32:13 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mario_Bros._-_Game%26Watch_-_Nintendo.jpg I think, although that's not the greatest picture.
12:32:38 <int-e> Or maybe it's actually one of those displays... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display ...which went out of fashion before I really tried to understand technology.
12:36:51 <int-e> Ah that page has this helpful (if not conclusive) bit: "This technology was also used from 1979 to the mid-1980s in portable electronic game units."
12:39:15 <fizzie> I think there was one with >2 screens (3 or 4), too, where the gameplay progressed from one to another, but that doesn't seem to have been a Game & Watch title.
12:42:08 <wib_jonas> int-e, fizzie: it's tricky. there are handheld game consoles with one game with a built in custom LCD and a few buttons, some in watch form but most larger, eventually (but only after the Game Boy) even as complex ones as a real Tetris with a 20x10 block board with 3 LCD segments in each block; but there are also "mini-arcade" portable games that
12:42:08 <wib_jonas> are similar but have a passive chasis and a built-in display with a variety of technology;
12:43:11 <wib_jonas> but also a lot of single-game TV game hardware that doesn't have a built-in display and you connect them to a TV like you'd connect a gaming console that uses cartirdges.
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12:44:06 <wib_jonas> and a lot of miscellanious games that don't clearly fall into genres, including games that combine electronics with traditional mechanical elements and/or human-enforced rules
12:45:42 <wib_jonas> these latter still exist today, as chess computers that detect how you move the physical game pieces on a board, presumably using magnets, electronic darts games that detect where the dart hits, and carnival games that count how many times you kicked the ball into the goal or threw it into the hoop
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15:01:39 <aaaaaa> [Python][SAT] Toy package manager under 200 SLOC on top of SAT solver https://yurichev.com/news/20200901_pkg/
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15:21:38 <t20kdc> ...constraint satisfaction is an NP-problem?
15:22:51 <t20kdc> ...sounds like a reason not to build a package system that requires solving it
15:23:02 <myname> how would you do that?
15:23:12 <myname> hardlink everything?
15:24:19 <myname> you could just always use the newest version of everything and hope it works out
15:24:31 <myname> but that does have obvious downsides
15:25:34 <t20kdc> take soname updates for instance - there's already something in place for side-by-side installation, it just has to be propagated to the package names
15:26:07 <t20kdc> and therefore version constraints aren't necessary
15:27:16 <myname> you just have to install anything like a hundred times. and if you are unlucky, those don't share configs if they should or do share configs if they shouldn't
15:28:03 <t20kdc> in practice, one shouldn't have to install anything a hundred times if everything uses the latest version, and if not, then that's better compatibility than the state of things r/n
15:29:09 <myname> i disagree
15:29:17 <int-e> t20kdc: But in practice, packages lag behind, some versions are broken, possibly only for a few select problems...
15:29:29 <myname> constraint satisfaction is in place it works
15:29:31 <int-e> and things become NP-hard sooner than you can blink
15:30:06 <int-e> problems -> packages
15:30:06 <cpressey> Every problem in CSP is either NP-complete or in P hth
15:30:12 <int-e> good Freudian slip, there.
15:30:29 <rain1> CSP = C_____ Salesman Problem ?
15:30:46 <int-e> cpressey: uh, misuse of "problem"?
15:31:00 <int-e> rain1: constraint satisfaction problem
15:31:24 <int-e> So, confused salesdrone problem
15:31:36 <t20kdc> my point is that moving soname major versions to the package name means that nothing changes unless side-by-side support is required, where it's an improvement (it's already done for, say, LLVM in some distros)
15:31:40 <int-e> `? drone
15:31:42 <HackEso> Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
15:33:08 <t20kdc> similar plans can be enacted in other places. if it makes the problem no longer NP-complete if applied sufficiently, I'm unsure, but it'd at least simplify things
15:33:17 <arseniiv> <int-e> .dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently) => read that way too
15:33:51 <int-e> . o O ( brain.dmg )
15:35:00 <t20kdc> of course in theory integrated support for side-by-side soname versions at package manager level is just as good for that specific improvement, just more complex
15:37:10 <int-e> t20kdc: enter diamonds...
15:37:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HTTPSONION * New user account
15:37:50 <int-e> (A depends on B,C; B,C depend on D, in such a way that you need to use the same version of D for both)
15:38:17 <t20kdc> int-e: there are always going to be failing situations, but this has less failing situations than the current state of "the app uses an ancient version of libpng and I can't run it"
15:39:26 <int-e> I'm just feeding the idea that the question whether there is a working combination of packages, even if it can be accurately reflected in terms of versions, is naturally NP-hard.
15:40:45 <int-e> And I think it is. I wouldn't necessarily want to use a general purpose SAT solver for this... but mostly because it's hard to obtain stable solutions from them.
15:40:52 <int-e> (I think.)
15:41:28 <cpressey> I think "simple package management" (for some definition of "simple") reduces to topological sort and I'm pretty sure topological sort is in P. But I'm equally confident that "practical package management" is not reducible to "simple package management", so. Not saying no to a SAT solver.
15:42:25 <t20kdc> topological sort package management is indeed what I was thinking of
15:42:38 <int-e> cpressey: it's mostly the versions that mess things up
15:43:17 <int-e> cpressey: but there's also things like alternative dependencies (several libraries providing the same API... several tools serving the same purpose)
15:44:52 <int-e> oh and of course different versions may have different dependencies as well
15:45:05 <int-e> (as in, depend on different packages)
15:52:11 <cpressey> If packages can have registered conflicts, and alternative dependencies, and there is some logic where it tries to avoid conflicts by trying alternatives -- sounds plausibly in NP to me
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16:26:31 <ais523> a reminder that apt can be made to solve Sudoku (and probably exact cover problems in general)
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16:30:17 <Taneb> ais523: how is the sudoku expressed?
16:32:05 <ais523> oh, dpkg, not apt
16:32:30 <ais523> looking it up now
16:34:08 <ais523> http://web.archive.org/web/20160304015611/http://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/
16:36:19 <ais523> Taneb: ^
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16:42:32 <kritixilithos> cool, i learnt today of a bubblegum quine https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/210416 which linked to a zip quine
16:43:52 <ais523> it'd be interesting to have an esolang which was a "more explicit" form of zip
16:44:02 <ais523> i.e. human readable backreferences, copy lengths, etc.
16:44:12 <ais523> so that the zip quine was easier to fully appreciate
16:44:32 <ais523> (not sure if "was" should be "were" there, normally I'm good with subjunctive grammar but this one flummoxes me)
16:44:46 <ais523> perhaps it should be "would be"?
16:46:51 <ais523> it is apt, not dpkg
16:46:57 <ais523> I was right first time
16:47:02 <ais523> I thought so, dpkg doesn't do dependency management
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16:55:10 <Hooloovo0> heh, yeah, dpkg doesn't manage dependencies, it just complains about them
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16:56:04 <t20kdc> ais523: the primary problem with that is the huffman layer
17:01:31 <ais523> you wouldn't have to replicate that, I doubt it's important to the quine's function
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17:45:15 <b_jonas> so I have a really silly idea. TIDE CUBE. oceans have two simultaneous tides during a 24-hour rotation, one on the day side caused by the Sun's gravitational pull, one on the night side caused by the Moon's gravitational pull. the common men of the ancient world, who lived their life in harmony with nature, working outdoors as farmers or sailors, knew this correctly. they didn't know the cause, which is
17:45:21 <b_jonas> understandable because they lived before Saint John told them about the four corners of Earth, so they invented such supernatural explanations as two giant sea monsters, Scylla and Charybdis, causing the tides.
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17:49:32 <b_jonas> but then a new elite rose, and instead of working, they leeched on the common man, shut themselves in ivory towers, and started to make theories, very rarely emerging to observe the real world and fact-check their theories. thus these people, Aristoteles and Erasthotenes, claimed that Earth was round. so did Columbus, who was more misguided because he had heard of the true teachings of the Bible and yet
17:49:38 <b_jonas> contradicted them, and ordered common men how to build sailing ships on this principle, without having any actual practice in seafaring. he led his men on a false path, and would have perished if it weren't for a timely mutiny of his men taking the ships back to the straight path.
17:50:05 <b_jonas> Columbus, of course, denied this, and claimed that he went the impossible round path and arrived to the East by going to the West, but we know that his men managed to take him straight to the West.
17:50:58 <b_jonas> If a physicist only works 8 hours a day, there's no way they can observe the two simultaneous tides in one day.
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17:51:42 <b_jonas> thus even today textbooks are full of incorrect explanations of tides.
17:53:51 <Hooloovo0> huh, someone already has tidecube.com
17:58:37 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: yes, there's a well-known washing machine detergent brand called "Tide", and there are at least dishwasher detergents distributed as cubes, so it's not too far-fetched as a brand that they'd want to use
17:59:07 <b_jonas> it would be surprising if no domain name squatter bought such a nice short English compound word under .com
18:01:02 <Hooloovo0> funky, ssh 5.3 on port 26
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18:35:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: my cheeks hurt, or my sanity, I don’t know which
18:36:02 <arseniiv> (may I also suggest a TIE CUBE)
18:38:38 <arseniiv> hm. TIRE CUBE. Tires are actually cubical, it’s just our eyes have a peculiar malfunction regarding them, as do our other optical devices as they are produced to fit our eyes’ functions to a degree. Only a garbage-level camera may approach the true image of tires (but while doing this, tire to death and explode)
18:39:06 <arseniiv> this is no competition even for TIDE CUBE, though, yep
18:39:21 <arseniiv> disregarding the original
18:39:43 <arseniiv> s/disregarding/and not even regarding
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19:15:19 <spruit11> No `chr` function in sight. https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/uchar_8h.html
19:15:22 <spruit11> Sigh.
19:15:34 <spruit11> WHy not?
19:16:33 <spruit11> Let's hope it is since it's probably just a cast?
19:19:21 <spruit11> double u_getNumericValue(UChar32 c)
19:19:29 <spruit11> OOps. Sorry for that.
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20:22:18 <spruit11> Looks like it's just a cast.
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20:33:19 <spruit11> egelbot: using String;; chr 0x1f994
20:33:19 <egelbot> '🦔🦔'
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20:53:02 <spruit11> Using libicu which uses utf-16 under water always surprises. Bug fixed.
21:00:09 <zzo38> If a program deals with both UTF-8 and UTF-16, I would suggest implementing WTF-M-8. If it works with UTF-8 only, then I would suggest at least UTF-G-8.
21:00:35 <spruit11> Too late. I already decided in the beginning on libicu.
21:00:49 <spruit11> I have no idea how to implement all the voodoo otherwise.
21:01:02 <spruit11> Plus, regexes. I wanted that too.
21:01:33 <zzo38> I used PCRE for regular expressions.
21:24:24 <shachaf> But PCRE expressions are not regular.
21:24:28 <zzo38> Is there something like magnet: URIs but for NNTP? Such a URI should include newsgroup name and message ID, and optionally timestamp, host/port, and hash value. (I suppose only message ID is really required, but newsgroup name is recommended too.)
21:24:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, they do things that mathematical regular expressions don't do, although these features can often be useful.
21:31:53 <arseniiv> . o O ( let’s call them irregular expressions )
21:32:48 <fizzie> There's the 'news' URI scheme, which (unlike the 'nntp' scheme) can indicate either a specific article (via message ID), or a specific set of newsgroups (by name, with wildcards) optionally indicating a server.
21:32:59 <fizzie> Unfortunately, I don't think it can *both* provide a message ID and any of that other useful data (newsgroup, server, timestamp) that would make locating the message easier. It's a sad omission.
21:33:39 <shachaf> I want a regular expression library with conjunction and negation.
21:34:38 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, that is why I wanted it, due to that limitation.
21:36:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: would that actually help with http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html ?
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21:37:00 <shachaf> b_jonas: Make the expression shorter? I'm not sure.
21:37:07 <shachaf> I bet there are other, easier features that would make it shorter.
21:37:26 <shachaf> What does the minimal NFA for that expression look like?
21:38:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, such as perl's feature that lets you copy a subexpression by reference. that would make it very short, because it lets you encode the, I think, 42 states of the regex and all paths among them.
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21:39:36 <shachaf> https://blog.tanyakhovanova.com/2009/08/divisibility-by-7-is-a-walk-on-a-graph-by-david-wilson/ is pretty small.
21:39:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think there are 42 states (or 43 if you don't want to accept the empty string as a valid representation of zero), namely 7 for the reminder classes modulo 7 of the part of the number you've seen, times 6 for the 6 different positions
21:40:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm ok, then I guess I'm wrong, you only need 7 states? I dunno
21:57:56 <b_jonas> maybe you need 7 states when reading from left to right, but 42 states when reading from right to left
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22:20:35 <shachaf> I think you need 7 either way?
22:20:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno
22:20:53 <shachaf> Anyway, you don't need the extra power you get from complement to implement this.
22:21:03 <shachaf> By extra power I mean an extra exponential to turn an AFA into a DFA.
22:32:41 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77175&oldid=77148 * Abbin21 * (+69)
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23:11:25 <int-e> b_jonas: you only need 7 states no matter what
23:11:53 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah. I was just wrong
23:12:37 <int-e> things get more interesting when gcd(d,b) > 1, where d is the number you're dividing by and b is the base.
23:13:41 <b_jonas> as in dividing by 8?
23:14:19 <b_jonas> in base 10 I mean
23:15:42 <int-e> Though, hmm. Divisibility by 8 needs 8 states either way. But from left to right it's just remainders; from right to left, you get 1 + 4 + 2 + 1 states, and maybe one more rejecting state depending on the flavor of DFA.
23:16:53 <int-e> (That flavor depends on whether a DFA is allowed to be partial or not)
23:18:42 <int-e> Oh, no, I'm doing this wrong.
23:21:15 <int-e> 5 states are enough going from left to right. We have to keep track of whether it's divisible by 8. And then we need the remainder modulo 4.
23:21:44 <int-e> (and only one of those remainders allows the number to be divisible by 8, so it's 4+1 = 5 states)
23:23:51 <b_jonas> int-e: I think you also don't need all the remainders from left to right. it doesn't matter which odd number your number starts with
23:23:59 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that's what you said
23:24:01 <int-e> I wonder how that diagram came to look so crappy (there's some odd outstanding pixels on the ellipse boundaries, for example)
23:24:22 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh right.
23:24:44 <b_jonas> isn't it only like four states?
23:24:49 <int-e> So there's some more collapse.
23:25:15 <b_jonas> four states are: odd, divisible by 2 but not by 4, divisible by 4 but not by 8, divisible by 8
23:25:27 <b_jonas> that's all you need left to right
23:25:42 <int-e> One state for each for remainders 1/3/5/7, 2/6, 4, and 0.
23:26:10 <int-e> Except that... no, I got it right.
23:26:18 <int-e> 12 is not divisible by 8; 32 is.
23:26:26 <int-e> So 1 and 3 cannot be in the same state.
23:26:38 <b_jonas> hmm
23:26:47 <b_jonas> drat
23:28:33 <int-e> Oh wow, only 4096 characters.
23:28:50 <int-e> Ah, no. Pasting went wrong.
23:29:46 <int-e> It's 16233. So the 10793 I have is better :-)
23:32:13 <int-e> (for a regular expression testing divisibility by 7. Mine even excludes the empty string... for free (you can just replace the * at the end by +)
23:32:27 <b_jonas> int-e: post it as a comment then
23:47:19 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77176&oldid=77175 * Abbin21 * (+156)
23:47:38 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77177&oldid=77176 * Abbin21 * (+2) /* How it works */
2020-09-02
00:16:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I gave it a shot. Won't try again, didn't leave any contact information.
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01:16:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Me * New user account
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02:12:53 <Cale> Have you guys heard about the new Jace, Mirror Mage combo with Teferi's Ageless Insight?
02:13:44 <Cale> 4 cards per turn
02:15:25 <Cale> Because Insight replaces the draw effect, the second half doesn't go off and so Jace doesn't lose loyalty.
02:15:34 <shachaf> I don't know either of those cards.
02:16:00 <shachaf> whoa, why doesn't the second half go off?
02:16:01 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
02:16:06 <shachaf> It's because the CMC is effectively zero?
02:16:48 <Cale> 614.11b If an effect would have a player both draw a card and perform an additional action on that card, and the draw is replaced, the additional action is not performed on any cards that are drawn as a result of that replacement effect.
02:17:25 <shachaf> Aha.
02:18:01 <shachaf> Why four and not three cards per turn?
02:18:04 <shachaf> Oh, is it the kicker?
02:18:05 <zzo38> I have not seen those cards (or maybe I have, but do not remember).
02:18:09 <Cale> Yeah, the kicker
02:18:16 <Cale> This is the just-spoiled new Jace
02:19:23 <shachaf> So it's a total of five cards per turn including the draw step?
02:19:29 <Cale> yeah
02:19:42 <shachaf> That's a lot of cards.
02:20:05 <shachaf> Cale: Remind me, did you slay any spires?
02:20:13 <Cale> Long ago, I did
02:20:16 <zzo38> I have not seen it, so copy the text here so that we can see, I suppose
02:21:01 <Cale> Card Name:
02:21:01 <Cale> Teferi's Ageless Insight
02:21:01 <Cale> Mana Cost:
02:21:01 <Cale> 2BlueBlue
02:21:01 <Cale> Converted Mana Cost:
02:21:02 <Cale> 4
02:21:03 <Cale> Types:
02:21:05 <Cale> Legendary Enchantment
02:21:07 <Cale> Card Text:
02:21:11 <Cale> If you would draw a card except the first one you draw in each of your draw steps, draw two cards instead.
02:21:23 <Cale> Jace, Mirror Mage {1}{U}{U}
02:21:23 <Cale> Legendary Planeswalker — Jace
02:21:23 <Cale> Kicker {2}
02:21:23 <Cale> When Jace, Mirror Mage enters the battlefield, if Jace was kicked, create a token that’s a copy of Jace, Mirror Mage except it’s not legendary and its starting loyalty is 1.
02:21:23 <Cale> +1: Scry 2.
02:21:25 <Cale> 0: Draw a card and reveal it. Remove a number of loyalty counters equal to that card’s converted mana cost from Jace, Mirror Mage.
02:21:28 <Cale> Loyalty: 4
02:22:03 <zzo38> Next time you could use the abbreviated single line format like I do, perhaps.
02:22:20 <Cale> ah, I don't know how to get nice copy/pasteable text for cards
02:22:35 <Cale> I just googled them and copy/pasted from the first results I could find
02:23:14 <zzo38> (It also looks like whoever typed that has entered bad alt text for the mana symbols. Alt text is the text that should be displayed when the image isn't displayed.)
02:27:05 <shachaf> You also didn't include the flavor text.
02:28:27 <zzo38> That is OK, though; for what you were discussing, flavor text (and art) is not relevant.
02:31:26 <zzo38> Do you like the abbreviated single line format that I like to use?
02:34:06 <Cale> I think so
02:38:57 <shachaf> `card-by-name teferi's ageless insight
02:38:58 <HackEso> No output.
02:39:05 <shachaf> Must not be updated for M21.
02:39:13 <shachaf> `random-card
02:39:14 <HackEso> Desert of the True \ Land -- Desert \ Desert of the True enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {W}. \ Cycling {1}{W} ({1}{W}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ HOU-C
03:25:19 <spruit11> Neat, there goes the moneyz again. Anything else to look forward to?
03:25:30 <spruit11> I'll check the spoilers.
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05:03:27 <zzo38> How to construct a va_list dynamically in C?
05:08:10 <shachaf> I don't think there's a portable way to do it.
05:08:17 <shachaf> Presumably you can make one based on the ABI.
05:09:05 <shachaf> You can also do something like http://www.talchas.net/tape.c
05:28:39 <zzo38> How common was it in various periods of history (including now) for someone to learn to read and write Latin but not to speak Latin (although they could speak other languages)?
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09:55:41 <int-e> b_jonas: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2011-04.html%23d.2011-04-25.1871#comment-27034
09:56:08 <int-e> (funny link, hmm)
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10:12:01 <kritixilithos> int-e: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/75326 ties yours
10:15:12 <int-e> kritixilithos: I love being second... :P
10:17:37 <int-e> kritixilithos: But I wasn't aware of that post. I stumbled across this problem near the end of last year because somebody posted https://github.com/olligobber/DivisibilityRegex which isn't quite optimal. Not sure where that happened; ##math is my guess.
10:17:51 <int-e> But it could also have been here; the logs could tell :P
10:19:57 <int-e> I did bring it up here, but I still think it started on ##math. https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-11-02.html#lle
10:23:52 <b_jonas> int-e: nice
10:24:56 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: oh! so it's already on golf.se. I'll definitely link that then
10:25:41 <b_jonas> and yes, that shows the short PCRE solution using the recursion extension
10:26:07 <int-e> I wonder whether that method for converting FAs to regular expressions is published. It's rather obvious (I think) so I'm not surprised that somebody else is using it too.
10:27:14 <kritixilithos> int-e: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/75326 ties yours
10:27:23 <int-e> kritixilithos: deja vu
10:27:47 <kritixilithos> whoops that was accidental
10:28:23 <int-e> b_jonas: "recursion extension", is that what it's called?
10:29:17 <int-e> hmm, should ask a search engine... leaning towards "no".
10:29:19 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know, I'd have to look at old versions of perl's manpages to know the canonical name, but it allows you to describe context-free grammars using recusions, which was I think the original goal, like describing nested parenthesis
10:30:20 <b_jonas> the strange thing is, David Madore's post isn't even from like 1997, preceding the whole SE, it's only older by a few months than the Golf SE post
10:30:24 <b_jonas> weird
10:31:41 <b_jonas> and in fact, it looks like the Golf SE post is motivated by code on github that is even older than David's post
10:31:41 <int-e> maybe somebody asked several people that question around the time
10:44:59 <kritixilithos> b_jonas: okay, posted it as a comment
10:49:31 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: we cross-posted then
10:49:35 <b_jonas> oh well
10:56:35 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/lucky-day/
10:56:37 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/lucky-day/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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11:12:42 <Sinthorion> Has anyone ever formalised some definition of "IO complete"/"perfect IO", ie. the ability of a machine to read and print any given string, with the output depending on the input?
11:16:45 <cpressey> I think people are generally satisfied with the idea that any given string can be mapped to a natural number, and that there exist functions that take natural numbers to natural numbers, and some of those functions can be computed by Turing machine
11:22:32 <b_jonas> Sinthorion: interactive or non-interactive?
11:23:34 <Sinthorion> non-interactive is enough
11:24:01 <Sinthorion> we talked about this a bit on the esolangs discord server
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13:28:35 <arseniiv> I wonder how mostrous would be an esolang which uses a generalized Minsky machine operating on Haskell-like strings, as there would be a end-of-string constructor and a constructor *for each Unicode codepoint*, and the primitive recursion operator takes such many arguments. Of course one could cheat and make so that it takes only several explicit arguments and all others are taken to be (λx1 … xn. "") but as I said that’s not the s
13:28:36 <arseniiv> pirit at all
13:28:36 <arseniiv> wait, I mixed GMM with generalized recursive functions. They are almost one and the same, in GMM instead of recursion operator we’d have a destructor which takes one input register and a hell of output registers, one for each constructor, and also the same number of continuation states. We can cheat the same way here, specifying a “default” continuation state and a “default” output register, and again I would be against doing
13:28:36 <arseniiv> that :P the tarpit should remain a tarpit
13:30:01 <spruit11> Heh, there's always one more tiny thing to do before I declare the interpreter beta.
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14:04:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: what does declaring it beta actually mean?
14:05:11 <b_jonas> for the egel interpreter that is
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14:26:18 <spruit11> That I feel confident about the core functionality of the rewriter, and that the interpreter is in a good enough stage. Basically, that I wouldn't expect any show stoppers anymore.
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14:31:05 <int-e> . o O ( beta is where software goes to die )
14:31:44 <spruit11> It's barely alive anyway!
14:32:05 <b_jonas> undead software!
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14:48:08 <Mirage48> Hi
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15:05:42 <b_jonas> `olist 1213
15:05:44 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1213.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
15:13:57 <Mirage48> here's something i made o a whim
15:13:58 <Mirage48> MowrMowr is ran on an infinte 2-dimensional lawn that is not mown (all 1s) . Wile the mower is on, moving over unmown grass will mow it (turn it into a 0).If there is any input, the bits of the input are formed into an-odd length square centered around the mower in reading order. Extra cells are unmowed (1)Note that the main chore (program) loops
15:13:59 <Mirage48> until you have a break. After all, it is an infinite lawn.Mowr supports the following commands.` - Pushes the mower forward.LR - Turns the mower left/right.! - Switches the mower on/off (default off)? - Turns the mower left if the mower is on mown grass, otherwise turns right.O - outputs the bit the mower is on. If on the initial cell, finish
15:13:59 <Mirage48> mowing the lawn (halt without outputting.).() - Delimits a subchore (loop) Escaped the same way as the main chore.
15:15:18 <spruit11> Really nice!
15:15:21 <spruit11> Link?
15:16:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> undead software! => but maybe that’s only after gamma
15:17:42 <Mirage48> i haven't made anything yet
15:17:46 <Mirage48> spruit11
15:18:00 <Mirage48> just putting down ideas
15:18:15 <b_jonas> Mirage48: that... might work, I dunno. the loop condition seems suspicious. but I don't understand why you flavor this as mowing, since there are no stones or other obstacles.
15:19:27 <Mirage48> just an idea that popped into my head
15:19:43 <Mirage48> The inital cell is where the ch\ore was stated, just to clarify
15:19:48 <Mirage48> *chore
15:22:10 <b_jonas> what? but that's even worse!
15:22:28 <Mirage48> yeah i know
15:22:42 <arseniiv> maybe what we need is actually a Clifford-algebraic language. Like, you take an algebra of dimension the same as input length, and generator vectors having squares ±1 depending on the corresponding bit of the input. Now, a program can’t be a term of a fixed size as that won’t be able to process arbitrary-length input. Instead, one can write something like a convolution kernel. Hm but how exactly…
15:23:12 <Mirage48> what?
15:23:25 <arseniiv> exactly!
15:23:44 <arseniiv> Clifford algebras are the absolute best in the world
15:24:33 <arseniiv> sorry, sorry, but this half-idea may be promising
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15:25:15 <arseniiv> and also a horror to implrment. The algebra for N generators has dimension 2^N
15:25:41 <arseniiv> so it one uses it sufficiently fully, the implementor couldn’t cheat
15:25:50 <tchibo> hi people
15:26:02 <arseniiv> `relcome tchibo
15:26:06 <HackEso> tchibo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:27:37 <tchibo> thx, not a mistake
15:29:23 <cpressey> How about an esolang that uses naive datetimes and requires somehow that they ambiguously reference UTC times. So that programs only have meaning if they are run during that hour in the autumn before the clocks are set back.
15:30:34 <tchibo> I just registered on the wiki to introduce my first language, not very esoteric, was curious if there is life on the chat
15:30:56 <b_jonas> cpressey: is that like 2014?
15:31:58 <cpressey> b_jonas: yes, it's exacly like 2014, for some value of 2014
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15:33:53 <spruit11> egelbot: 9-5 # because of b_jonas I reversed a decision and implemented normal monadic min behavior again.
15:33:53 <egelbot> 4
15:34:44 <b_jonas> egelobt: 9+5
15:34:51 <b_jonas> [ 9+5
15:34:52 <j-bot> b_jonas: 14
15:34:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: 9+5
15:34:59 <egelbot> 14
15:36:13 <spruit11> egelbot: -1
15:36:14 <egelbot> -1
15:37:08 <arseniiv> tchibo: there is. Though it’s highly irregular. May be a day or two in silence, only esowiki dumping page modifications
15:37:40 <tchibo> ic
15:39:25 <tchibo> my kingdom for a charger
15:40:49 <arseniiv> I think I’m ready to dump my Clifford algebra idea on the wiki but I don’t want to analyze what computational complexity it will give
15:44:11 <b_jonas> what kind of charger?
15:44:34 <b_jonas> and what kingdom?
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16:11:26 <esowiki> [[Cyclifford]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77178 * Arseniiv * (+1491) Created page with "'''Cyclifford''' is a silly idea of a language by [[User:arseniiv]], based on [[wikipedia:Clifford algebra|Clifford algebra]]s. The program is an expression consisting of int..."
16:12:27 <arseniiv> of int-e no less
16:12:43 <arseniiv> no one will know for sure until reads the article mwhahahah
16:16:13 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77179&oldid=74975 * Arseniiv * (+90) book-keeping
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17:21:43 <spruit11> egelbot: val myglobal = ref 0;; setref myglobal [X->X]; getref myglobal "hello all" #no language is feature complete without global variables
17:21:43 <egelbot> "hello all"
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17:38:18 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77180&oldid=77169 * SunnyMoon * (+49) School update.
17:39:46 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77181&oldid=77180 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Grammatical Wiki error.
17:40:55 <b_jonas> spruit11: oh, arbitrary mutable references?
17:41:02 <b_jonas> that makes this MUCH more powerful
17:42:51 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77182&oldid=67569 * SunnyMoon * (-1) What are you doing here, paranthesis?
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19:34:45 <spruit11> Right, power is what I crave.
19:35:18 <b_jonas> ref, setref, getref? I might try that
19:39:36 <spruit11> Yah. No cycles though.
19:39:51 <b_jonas> how is it no cycles?
19:40:00 <spruit11> But I am confident you can work around that.
19:40:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: [R -> setref R R] (ref 0)
19:40:21 <egelbot> <System:reference>
19:40:23 <spruit11> Oh, you can do cycles. But then the structures won't gc.
19:40:35 <b_jonas> ah ok, that makes more sense
19:41:17 <spruit11> I might try a stress test locally and see how fast egel can leak.
19:41:39 <spruit11> Maybe a bit of abuse isn't that bad.
19:52:53 <spruit11> Not sure what I expected except that you don't really notice for small shortlived scripts. And that egel is slow.
19:52:56 <spruit11> Ah well.
19:56:38 <spruit11> Pffrt, how do you measure how much memory a process consumed on linux. Something simpler than valgrind.
19:56:43 <spruit11> ?
19:58:10 <Sgeo> What language is this?
19:58:18 <spruit11> Egel.
19:58:23 <spruit11> egelbot: agitprop
19:58:23 <egelbot> visit https://egel-lang.github.io/
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21:13:24 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listrev_a = [ S nil -> S| S (cons A D) -> listrev_a (cons A S) D ];; def listrev = listrev_a {};; listrev {8,2,13,59,75}
21:13:25 <egelbot> {75, 59, 13, 2, 8}
21:18:14 <spruit11> Ah. I tried to analyze your script and didn't get any further that you like accumulators.
21:19:43 <spruit11> If you want a challenge: read it and weep https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/bintrees.eg
21:19:56 <b_jonas> spruit11: well it's an eager pure functional language. at least it was, until you added this new mutability feature. I have to program it like an eager functional programming language.
21:20:01 <b_jonas> egelbot: data mcons;; data mnil;; data mhdr;; def mempty = [N -> ref (mhdr N N)] (ref mnil);; def mpush = [A H -> [(mhdr F T) U -> setref T (mcons A U); setref H (mhdr F U) | _ _ -> throw "error mpush"] (getref H) (ref mnil) ];; def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> listrev ([R N -> R R {} N] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) -> | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F)) ] ]
21:20:01 <egelbot> internal:1:346:syntactical:] expected
21:20:07 <b_jonas> (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:20:19 <b_jonas> egelbot: data mcons;; data mnil;; data mhdr;; def mempty = [N -> ref (mhdr N N)] (ref mnil);; def mpush = [A H -> [(mhdr F T) U -> setref T (mcons A U); setref H (mhdr F U) | _ _ -> throw "error mpush"] (getref H) (ref mnil) ];; "ok"
21:20:19 <egelbot> "ok"
21:22:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) -> | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:16 <egelbot> internal:1:126:syntactical:] expected
21:22:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:51 <egelbot> internal:1:78:semantical:undeclared A
21:22:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:59 <egelbot> internal:1:137:semantical:undeclared error
21:23:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> throw "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:23:08 <egelbot> "ok"
21:23:26 <b_jonas> egelbot: mempty
21:23:26 <egelbot> <System:reference>
21:23:29 <b_jonas> egelbot: getref mempty
21:23:29 <egelbot> (mhdr <System:reference> <System:reference>)
21:24:28 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:24:28 <egelbot> exception("munlist")
21:25:13 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ NN PP -> throw ("munlist",NN,PP) ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:25:13 <egelbot> "ok"
21:25:17 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:25:17 <egelbot> exception(("munlist", {}, (mcons 8 <System:reference>)))
21:25:26 <b_jonas> mcons, right
21:25:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (mcons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ NN PP -> throw ("munlist",NN,PP) ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:25:38 <egelbot> "ok"
21:25:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:25:42 <egelbot> {8, 22, 13, 59, 75}
21:25:45 <b_jonas> YES
21:27:41 <spruit11> Nice.
21:27:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mextend = [nil H -> nop | (cons A D) H -> mpush A H; mextend D H | _ _-> throw "mextend" ];; mlist = [M L -> mextend L M; M] mempty
21:27:59 <egelbot> internal:1:105:syntactical:= unexpected
21:28:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mextend = [nil H -> nop | (cons A D) H -> mpush A H; mextend D H | _ _-> throw "mextend" ];; def mlist = [M L -> mextend L M; M] mempty
21:28:18 <b_jonas> egelbot: munlist mlist {8,22,13,59,75}
21:28:18 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:28:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: mlist {8,22,13,59,75}
21:28:32 <egelbot> <System:reference>
21:28:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:38 <egelbot> (mhdr <System:reference> <System:reference>)
21:28:50 <b_jonas> egelbot: [F T -> (getref F, getref T)] getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:51 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:28:58 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:58 <egelbot> (Local:Dummy170 System:getref <System:reference>)
21:29:20 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:29:20 <egelbot> ((mcons 8 <System:reference>), mnil)
21:29:20 <spruit11> I am not sure you gain much by using an accumulator. I have the feeling it just changes the order of calculations. Need to check that once.
21:29:32 <spruit11> But watching a movie and profiling.
21:29:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: I wouldn't gain much *now* when I could just use mutability everywhere
21:30:01 <b_jonas> I don't need to use pure structures anymore, so it's possible to dispense with accumulators
21:30:14 <b_jonas> but I wrote that program when it was a pure language
21:30:17 <b_jonas> please consider that
21:30:27 <b_jonas> and you even said you don't really want to add mutability
21:30:32 <spruit11> Yah, sure. I was thinking about that program.
21:31:08 <spruit11> I should matter in memory consumption but not much in performance, I have the feeling now.
21:31:11 <b_jonas> if it's an eager pure functional language, you hvae to use accumulators
21:31:20 <spruit11> *ut
21:31:38 <spruit11> Oh gawd. I am going back to watching this movie.
21:31:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:31:56 <egelbot> ((mcons 8 <System:reference>), mnil)
21:33:47 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MA, MD, (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:33:47 <egelbot> internal:1:5:syntactical:-> expected
21:34:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MA MD (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:08 <egelbot> <System:reference>
21:34:14 <b_jonas> what?
21:34:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:30 <egelbot> 8
21:34:33 <b_jonas> better
21:34:36 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA MD F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:36 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:34:41 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MD F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:41 <egelbot> <System:reference>
21:34:48 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:48 <egelbot> (mcons 22 <System:reference>)
21:34:52 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:52 <egelbot> 22
21:34:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MD (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:56 <egelbot> <System:reference>
21:35:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD F))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:04 <egelbot> (mcons 13 <System:reference>)
21:35:09 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD F)))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:09 <egelbot> (mcons 59 <System:reference>)
21:35:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD (MD F))))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:15 <egelbot> (mcons 75 <System:reference>)
21:35:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD (MD (MD F)))))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:22 <egelbot> mnil
21:35:27 <b_jonas> then what's the problem?
21:35:46 <b_jonas> egelbot: munlist (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:35:46 <egelbot> {8, 22, 13, 59, 75}
21:35:56 <b_jonas> why wasn't that working before?
21:36:19 <b_jonas> ah
21:36:22 <b_jonas> I was missing the paren
21:36:25 <b_jonas> darn
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23:04:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:04:22 <egelbot> internal:1:11:syntactical:= unexpected
23:04:25 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:04:26 <egelbot> "ok"
23:04:53 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:04:53 <egelbot> (Local:mprime_i0 (Local:mprime_i2 12) <System:reference>)
23:06:00 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw"error mprime_i h"] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:06:00 <egelbot> "ok"
23:06:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:06:04 <egelbot> exception("error mprime_i h")
23:07:07 <b_jonas> oh
23:07:42 <b_jonas> no, I don't get it
23:08:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw("error mprime_i h",] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"](getref M)];; "ok"
23:08:15 <egelbot> internal:1:82:syntactical:primary expression expected
23:08:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw"error mprime_i h"] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] (getref M)];; "ok"
23:08:40 <egelbot> "ok"
23:08:46 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:46 <egelbot> System:true
23:08:49 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 13 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:49 <egelbot> System:false
23:08:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 14 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:51 <egelbot> System:true
23:08:54 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 15 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:54 <egelbot> System:true
23:08:58 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 17 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:58 <egelbot> System:false
23:09:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 19 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:09:02 <egelbot> System:false
23:09:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 21 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:09:04 <egelbot> System:true
23:09:11 <b_jonas> ok, so
23:15:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->nop] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2)
23:15:56 <egelbot> internal:1:9:syntactical:= unexpected
23:16:12 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->nop] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2); mprime 30
23:16:28 <b_jonas> egelbot: "are you ok?"
23:16:28 <egelbot> "are you ok?"
23:16:33 <b_jonas> hmm
23:16:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"irrelevant"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2); mprime 30
23:17:06 <spruit11> You missed a semicolon?
23:17:09 <b_jonas> ah
23:17:26 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2);; mprime 30
23:17:26 <egelbot> exception("mextend")
23:17:36 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist{2});; mprime 30
23:17:36 <egelbot> {2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28}
23:17:39 <b_jonas> er no
23:17:45 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [false->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist{2});; mprime 30
23:17:45 <egelbot> {2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29}
23:17:48 <b_jonas> better
23:17:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime 149
23:17:56 <egelbot> {2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127, 131, 137, 139}
23:18:09 <b_jonas> [ s=:2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127, 131, 137, 139
23:18:09 <j-bot> b_jonas: |ok
23:18:16 <b_jonas> [ p:i.#s
23:18:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139
23:18:19 <b_jonas> [ s-:p:i.#s
23:18:20 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1
23:18:21 <b_jonas> good
23:20:32 <b_jonas> def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ]
23:20:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ];; ok
23:20:42 <egelbot> internal:1:130:semantical:undeclared ok
23:20:45 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ];; "ok"
23:20:45 <egelbot> "ok"
23:20:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: ping
23:20:56 <egelbot> internal:1:2:semantical:undeclared ping
23:21:06 <b_jonas> egelbot: data pong;; def ping = pong;; ping
23:21:06 <egelbot> pong
23:21:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: ping
23:21:08 <egelbot> pong
23:21:14 <b_jonas> egelbot: ping "hello"
23:21:14 <egelbot> (pong "hello")
23:22:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listlen_a = [P nil->P| P (cons A D)->listlen(1+P)D| _->throw"error listlen" ];; def listlen = listlen_a 0;; "ok"
23:22:02 <egelbot> internal:1:43:semantical:undeclared listlen
23:22:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listlen_a = [P nil->P| P (cons A D)->listlen_a(1+P)D| _->throw"error listlen" ];; def listlen = listlen_a 0;; "ok"
23:22:32 <egelbot> "ok"
23:23:10 <b_jonas> egelbot: [L-> listdrop (-40+(listlen L)) L] (mprime 1000)
23:23:11 <egelbot> {727, 733, 739, 743, 751, 757, 761, 769, 773, 787, 797, 809, 811, 821, 823, 827, 829, 839, 853, 857, 859, 863, 877, 881, 883, 887, 907, 911, 919, 929, 937, 941, 947, 953, 967, 971, 977, 983, 991, 997}
23:23:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [L-> listdrop (-40+(listlen L)) L] (mprime (1<<16))
23:24:01 <egelbot> {65099, 65101, 65111, 65119, 65123, 65129, 65141, 65147, 65167, 65171, 65173, 65179, 65183, 65203, 65213, 65239, 65257, 65267, 65269, 65287, 65293, 65309, 65323, 65327, 65353, 65357, 65371, 65381, 65393, 65407, 65413, 65419, 65423, 65437, 65447, 65449, 65479, 65497, 65519, 65521}
23:24:58 <b_jonas> [ p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^_1) 65536
23:24:58 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
23:24:58 <j-bot> b_jonas: | p:(_40+i.40)+( p:^_1)65536
23:25:15 <b_jonas> [ (p:^_1) 65536
23:25:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
23:25:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: | ( p:^_1)65536
23:25:28 <b_jonas> [ (p:) 6000
23:25:29 <j-bot> b_jonas: 59369
23:25:36 <b_jonas> [ p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^:_1) 65536
23:25:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 65099 65101 65111 65119 65123 65129 65141 65147 65167 65171 65173 65179 65183 65203 65213 65239 65257 65267 65269 65287 65293 65309 65323 65327 65353 65357 65371 65381 65393 65407 65413 65419 65423 65437 65447 65449 65479 65497 65519 65521
23:26:01 <b_jonas> [ s=: 65099, 65101, 65111, 65119, 65123, 65129, 65141, 65147, 65167, 65171, 65173, 65179, 65183, 65203, 65213, 65239, 65257, 65267, 65269, 65287, 65293, 65309, 65323, 65327, 65353, 65357, 65371, 65381, 65393, 65407, 65413, 65419, 65423, 65437, 65447, 65449, 65479, 65497, 65519, 65521
23:26:02 <j-bot> b_jonas: |ok
23:26:06 <b_jonas> [ s-: p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^:_1) 65536
23:26:07 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1
23:26:08 <b_jonas> good
23:26:20 <b_jonas> spruit11: mutabile boxes seem to work
23:27:06 <spruit11> There are not a lot I could do wrong there. But thanks for testing it. Helps a lot.
23:27:26 <spruit11> What do you think? Slow but correct?
23:27:55 <b_jonas> spruit11: well it certainly seems to work
23:28:41 <spruit11> Yah. I'll move it to beta next. I think. Which doesn't mean a lot except that I'll change some texts on websites.
23:31:21 <b_jonas> spruit11: what are your future plans? mutable vectors? a list sorting primitive function in the library implemented in C++, plus a few helper wrapper data constructors that have funny comparison rules (at least one that compares backwards)? proper format (sprintf) functions so we can print numbers in ways other than the default format? I'm asking these because these are much easier to implement as
23:31:21 <b_jonas> built-ins than trying to write them in egel
23:32:27 <b_jonas> spruit11: oh and also, do you have more integer primitives? like wrapping addition and subtraction, unsigned less and lessequal, wrapping multiplication, unsigned high multiplication, signed high multiplication, index of first bit?
23:33:03 <b_jonas> those too fall in the category of things that are much easier to write in C++ than in egel.
23:33:15 <b_jonas> or maybe egel-bot improvements?
23:33:31 <spruit11> FFI through templates.
23:33:59 <b_jonas> like, more protection so you can't easily flood the channel with a [R->R R][R->print"spam";R R]
23:34:00 <spruit11> Even if I have a sluggish interpreter I want it to be easy to bind to C/C++.
23:34:10 <b_jonas> well that's interesting too
23:34:35 <spruit11> No, won't work on the bot. The bot is mostly there to show you can embed egel in a C++ application.
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23:35:02 <b_jonas> I see
23:35:53 <spruit11> The idea is to have something as an alternative to building your own DSL. Just use Egel and toss in some combinators.
23:36:17 <spruit11> Not entirely unique, of course. Lisp/Python is good at that too.
23:36:32 <spruit11> But those are not Egel!
23:38:46 <spruit11> I have a start of that here: https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/tree/master/contrib/ffi
2020-09-03
00:06:32 <b_jonas> zeb finds screw attack
00:06:39 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel
00:14:31 <spruit11> I made a profile of a bintrees benchmark: https://pastebin.com/tLEpdApj
00:15:16 <zzo38> Different kind of thing good for a different purpose of programming language, depending what DSL you are making, I think.
00:17:49 <spruit11> Yah. I won't claim you should always choose this as a solution. And certainly not at the moment. But could be nice.
00:19:58 <zzo38> Yes, maybe sometimes; I don't know.
00:21:41 <spruit11> Yah, ah well, dreams. THere's a good chance I'll declare it beta, shelf it, and sit on it for another year. It isn't supposed to be work.
00:25:27 <zzo38> Sometimes I just invent my own DSL for the specific use of something, and other times won't need a DSL, due to something else being available, etc.
00:26:44 <b_jonas> GG
00:26:56 <spruit11> Dunno. I do recommend anyone Lua/Lisp/Python over Egel at the moment. But the last time I tried to compare Egel to Python, the latter ran out of stack space after 900 recursive calls.
00:27:13 <spruit11> So, there just might be a case. Sluggish, but robust.
00:28:49 <b_jonas> grapple below croc, bombs at croc, high jump at croc!
00:28:59 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel still
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00:33:26 <imode> b_jonas: sgdq or something? I see super metroid.
00:33:55 <b_jonas> imode: not SGDQ, that has ended already
00:34:17 <b_jonas> but yes, super metroid
00:34:44 <imode> is there a super metroid race I don't know about.
00:37:36 <b_jonas> imode: an exhibition match of super metroid randomizer accessible (SMRAT) between the winners of the two brackets of the tournament
00:37:45 <b_jonas> on twitch channel Speedrunnersarena
00:37:52 <b_jonas> third match of best of five starting soon
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00:49:44 <zzo38> Recently, for doing some calculations I am using JavaScript code. Know that you can write something like const {abs,max,min,sqrt}=Math; in order to put some functions in the scope to avoid needing the prefix each time. (For some reason, I only thought to start doing that recently.)
00:50:25 <zzo38> Also, specifically in Node.js, you can write something like: module.exports[require("util").inspect.custom]=()=>`documentation goes here` in case you want documentation displayed when a module is imported into the REPL.
00:50:43 <spruit11> Yah, I believe JS is a pretty good language.
00:51:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: a lot of languages allow that. in C++, using std::abs; using std::min; using std::max; using std::sqrt; in python it's from math import sqrt; (the other three are in the prelude); etc
00:51:35 <zzo38> Yes. There are some features I dislike (such as automatic semicolon insertion), but it is mostly good, I think.
00:51:42 <b_jonas> you can pull in symbols from other packages in rust too
00:52:24 <b_jonas> SPEEED
00:54:37 <spruit11> The only thing I don't like about JS is the amount of typing you need to do sometimes. But I'll wager they already fixed that.
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00:56:07 <spruit11> Right, JS has lambdas.
00:58:18 <zzo38> It is good some of the newer things they have added, such as typed arrays, arrow functions, generator functions, and integers.
00:59:11 <spruit11> Heh. https://z-pattern-matching.github.io/
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01:08:26 <zzo38> But I think I read that the implementation of integers requires the left and right operands of many operators to be of the same type (floating or integers); I think that it should not be required for the bit shifting operators (using the type of the left operand as the result type in these cases, instead). Also, last time I checked, there wasn't functions for ctz and popcount and stuff like that.
01:13:16 <spruit11> More food for thought. I am gonna play mtg now.
01:13:19 <spruit11> o/
01:25:47 <zzo38> They are adding new things to JavaScript, but I think some improvements could be made to some other programming languages too, including PostScript, such as alpha transparency, auto-allocation (e.g. when you want to read a line of unknown length from a file), FFI, better string handling, shebang line, Z buffering, etc.
01:28:46 <zzo38> What cards are you playing?
01:30:04 <spruit11> This was a bit boring. I didn't have a nice Boros deck at the moment so I played Red Aggro to just get the dailies out of the way.
01:31:36 <spruit11> I don't know Postscript well but I thought it is doing its job?
01:32:23 <zzo38> It is, although it could do better, like C and JavaScript and whatever are being improved to do better too.
01:32:44 <int-e> Meh, no word about the sole * in the August Ponder This solution :-/ I was really hoping to learn something.
01:33:33 <zzo38> (One problem is the readline command; you have to allocate the string yourself to store the result, and if it is too short for the text of the line to fit, then it is an error; I suggest making it so that if you put null instead of a string, it will allocate a string of the correct size automatically.)
01:33:51 <spruit11> I think I played most the memes of current standard though. Normally I like janky decks.
01:35:21 <int-e> (Or at least be disappointed by something like "they used a 10k CPU cluster for a week to exhaust all possibilities")
01:35:30 <spruit11> Hmm, I guess postscript still 'suffers' from being designed for far less capable printers instead of the monstrosities we have now.
01:36:11 <spruit11> Usually that is a good thing, though.
01:37:14 <zzo38> spruit11: Well, I am using PostScript on computers, not on printers, for one thing. For printers, you might as well use something like PCL, perhaps. I use PostScript as a programming language and think it is not as good as a document format or protocol, because there are other formats for doing that, which are better.
01:37:50 <spruit11> Why not? Stack machines are great for this kind of stuff?
01:37:51 <zzo38> (The result is also not necessarily even going to be a printed page; it might be a PNG file or something like that.)
01:39:16 <zzo38> spruit11: While it does work, it seems too excessive for a protocol or document format.
01:42:28 <zzo38> (For a document format, there is PDF, although I think even for that, PDF is really messy)
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01:46:13 <spruit11> Dunno. I like small concatenative languages for their simplicity but I wouldn't want to program in them. Probably couldn't.
01:46:30 <spruit11> And speed. I appreciate speed.
01:49:15 <zzo38> Well, some people do program in PostScript (actually, I think I read that the inventor of INTERCAL programs in PostScript, too, when they want to do graphics, since PostScript is a good programming language for doing vector graphics).
01:53:36 <spruit11> Stack languages are great if you want to send lots of instructions to some abstract machine with high throughput. That's about the only thing I picked up from looking at them. They're just so simple.
01:53:48 <spruit11> And nicely regular. I like that too.
01:57:44 <zzo38> Do you like to play any D&D or GURPS or similar games? Also, do you like to make up any custom Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:59:35 <spruit11> I am way more boring than that!
02:00:33 <spruit11> No, I mostly spend my time reading up on philosophy, cs, and watching Hollywood crap.
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04:18:00 <Cale> Waaaaait, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is neither a Spirit nor a Dragon
04:20:21 <shachaf> Are you sure?
04:20:28 <shachaf> Based on the art it looks like both.
04:22:45 <Cale> Types: Legendary Planeswalker — Ugin
04:23:04 <int-e> It's a planeswalker? Are there any planeswalkers with creature types?
04:23:17 <zzo38> Well, the card isn't a Spirit or Dragon, but perhaps the art is
04:23:23 * int-e never learned properly about planeswalkers.
04:23:54 <Cale> Yeah, I don't think there are any planeswalkers with creature types
04:24:09 <zzo38> int-e: Refer to rule 306 to learn about how the planeswalkers is working.
04:24:17 <int-e> It can still be a dragon in spirit, even if it can't be one on technical grounds.
04:24:38 <zzo38> I think that they don't make any planeswalker cards with other types, although it is possible to make such a card that is also a tribal or creature, and then it can have creature types.
04:24:50 <int-e> zzo38: But I also don't really care to learn properly about planeswalkers.
04:25:54 <zzo38> O, OK. Although, if you want to learn how is the game working for whatever reason, then you should learn about all of the rules of the game.
04:28:08 <shachaf> Gideon, Champion of Justice can have creature types.
04:28:12 <shachaf> Although they aren't printed on the card.
04:28:48 <shachaf> I suppose any planeswalker can be turned into a creature.
04:29:33 <Cale> Can something which is not a creature have a creature type, and if so, will it retain that creature type if it becomes a creature?
04:29:45 <zzo38> Yes, any permanent could, some change themself and some are changed by other effects.
04:32:06 <zzo38> Cale: I think it can include a creature type in the type line of its text, but unless it is a creature or tribal, it won't have those subtypes, and they won't be retained unless an effect says that permanent becomes "an artifact creature" or changes it into a creature "in addition to its other types".
04:33:16 <zzo38> (It is not entirely clear though if it can retain subtypes due purely to its initial text. But I think not, since subtypes are a continuous property (a characteristic).)
04:34:07 <shachaf> What about e.g. https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373559 ?
04:34:24 <shachaf> Nylea, God of the Hunt, and the other Thorax gods.
04:34:26 <shachaf> Theros?
04:34:52 <Cale> So if, for example Ugin, The Spirit Dragon was printed with Spirit Dragon in its type line, it wouldn't count towards the number of Dragons you control.
04:35:07 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I believe so.
04:37:05 <zzo38> (unless something changed it into a artifact creature)
04:37:45 <Cale> right
04:39:01 <zzo38> (Although, it is the Oracle text that counts anyways, rather than printed text, although cards are normally printed with the Oracle text of the time when they were printed. But I did read about one exception, where it was printed with Oracle text from the future instead.)
04:39:53 <shachaf> Usually when I get cards they're printed with Oracle text from the past.
04:46:31 <int-e> "oracle text from the future"... so they went forth and back on a change, I guess.
04:46:55 <int-e> Or perhaps it was a deliberate un-card prank.
04:47:13 <int-e> As for the rules I guess I stopped caring about 13 years ago.
04:48:34 <shachaf> I imagine it's from Future Sight.
04:48:44 <shachaf> Maybe https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=136151 ?
04:49:04 <shachaf> I don't know if that was on the Oracle text before it went into the rules or not.
04:49:22 <int-e> They still had mana burn then.
04:50:28 <shachaf> Did they have damage go on the stack?
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04:51:43 <zzo38> Do you mean combat damage on the stack? That was the case at one time, in sixth edition, but they removed that now; the rules work differently.
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04:52:50 <int-e> shachaf: yes.
04:54:57 <int-e> no battlefield either, an explicit out-of-play zone for phasing, blah...
05:01:00 <shachaf> I'm glad they took blah out
05:01:03 <shachaf> What a terrible rule.
05:02:23 <int-e> blah.
05:03:41 <int-e> `rot13 blah
05:03:42 <HackEso> oynu
05:03:53 <int-e> (quite pronouncible)
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08:17:14 <b_jonas> Cale: vehicles are printed with creature types, but they only become creatures when you use their "crew" ability to animate them, and then they have those creature types
08:21:40 <b_jonas> Cale: yes, but these days planeswalkers could barely be printed with creature types anymore even if wizards wanted to, because "Legendary Planeswalker - Liliana" takes up most of the type line. the best you could do is a planeswalker with a short planeswalker type and a very short creature type, or a very short planeswalker type and a short creature type, or a changeling ability in the text box. and if
08:21:47 <b_jonas> you tried that, you couldn't reprint that planeswalker in a core set, because those have longer expansion symbols.
08:22:23 <b_jonas> "Legendary Planeswalker Creature - Spirit Dragon Ugin" is right out, and so is "Legendary Artifact Vehicle Planeswalker - Argo Ship"
08:26:18 <b_jonas> even "Legendary Planeswalker - Cat Ajani" is too long for a core set, it could only fit in a set with a normal-sized expansion symbol. although they renamed one creature type to shorter: Hound to Dog.
08:39:46 <Cale> b_jonas: Just gotta keep decreasing the font size until you need a magnifying glass to read it :D
08:40:59 <Cale> "Legendary Enchantment Creature - God"
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09:34:32 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77183&oldid=76811 * Orisphera * (-19) /* General Ideas */
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12:55:08 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77186&oldid=76791 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */
12:59:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77187&oldid=77167 * Tetrapyronia * (+16)
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14:08:21 <wib_jonas> could we somehow rename "minute" as in the unit of time that's 60 seconds? we have trouble abbreviating it because both "m" or "mn" can stand for either minute or month (yet at least one system uses "m" to abbreviate one and "mn" to abbreviate the other), and even "min" has problems because it already very often stands for "minimum". but I don't
14:08:21 <wib_jonas> know what the best solution could be.
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14:16:35 <FireFly> "min" is a good enough suffix for minute for me
14:16:50 <FireFly> of course, we could just use SI prefixes and seconds \o/
14:17:45 <FireFly> instead of 5 min you just specify 3hs
14:20:23 <FireFly> wib_jonas: but don't worry, UK manages to use 'm' as shorthand for both metres and miles in road signage
14:27:07 <wib_jonas> FireFly: hehe
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14:28:49 <Taneb> I want to rename the kilogram to something that doesn't have a prefix in it because I don't understand why the SI base unit has a size prefix
14:31:31 <FireFly> reasonable, arguably the gram should be the base unit
14:31:47 <cpressey> wib_jonas: how about sexagintisecond (Latin) or hexecontasecond (Greek)
14:32:02 <cpressey> or, uh, shastisecond (Sanskrit)
14:32:42 <wib_jonas> road signs get *some* excuses from the usual rules because they have to limit the amount of text to remain readable. here, most road signs give distances in kilometers but don't have the unit explicitly written out, with three exceptions.
14:33:20 <cpressey> What gets me is that an hour is nicely divisible by 3 (thank you, Ancient Babylonians) but we never exploit this by saying anything like "It's a third to 11"
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> short distances are usually given in meter, and those use "m" as the unit, so "500 m" is very common on the freeway in context of the second warning of an upcoming exit. small white road signs that give a distance or length below another road sign do explicitly say "km" eg.
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/M2_aut%C3%B3p%C3%A1lya%2C_kosdi_%C3%BAt_h%C3%ADdja.jpg" . finally speed limit signs use km/h as the unit, and old ones have an explicit "km" (in small letters) to hint at that, but these days the new style without any mention of the unit is more common.
14:35:11 <wib_jonas> cpressey: well some things are quantized to multiples of 5 minutes, but yes, 20 minutes is never used as the unit
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14:39:12 <wib_jonas> info page for that image is "https://commons.wikimedia.org/?curid=79510556"
14:43:41 <FireFly> wib_jonas: sure, we omit unit for the usual km distance signs too, and use explicit 'm' for shorter distances
14:44:29 <FireFly> I would mind it less tbh if UK signage just omitted unit altogther for long mile distances :p but if you use a unit, at least use a unique one
14:49:45 <wib_jonas> a unique one like ounce!
15:50:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77188 * Tetrapyronia * (+247) /* Random Number Generator */ new section
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17:18:32 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77190&oldid=75045 * Lebster * (-4) /* Hello World */
17:19:16 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77191&oldid=77064 * Lebster * (-101) /* StupidStackLanguage */
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18:09:52 <zzo38> If you need to abbreviate both metres and miles in the road sign maybe you should write "mi" for miles, and "m" for metres, then.
18:14:43 <arseniiv> . o O ( min = milliinch )
18:18:52 <zzo38> I think that a inch isn't a SI unit and so their abbreviations should not include SI prefixes.
18:22:21 <kmc> milliinch is a common unit but usually called "mil" or "thou" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch
18:22:34 <kmc> i would say that "mil" is a worse name than milliinch but "thou" is a better one
18:23:10 <arseniiv> zzo38: why not? It’s just that SI prescribes that any, or almost any feasible SI unit should be able to used with SI prefixes, but I’d think it’s not concerned with denying anything outside its scope
18:23:43 <arseniiv> how long art thou o child of inch
18:23:56 <zzo38> arseniiv: I am not denying using SI prefixes on units that are not SI units, but I do deny to use SI prefixes in their abbreviations.
18:24:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: does liter and bar count as SI units? how about bytes and bits?
18:24:53 <b_jonas> and bauds, while we're there
18:24:54 <arseniiv> I’d think denying for some extent would be reasonable indeed but not too strongly
18:25:22 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, I suppose so.
18:25:23 <arseniiv> bits I think are somewhere in SI, though we’re probably need a reference now
18:26:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know, although I think that some are "close enough", although bytes are often abbreviated using binary prefixes rather than SI prefixes anyways
18:26:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also how about kiloponds, millimeters of mercury, kilocalories? those are definitely not SI units
18:27:17 <zzo38> Well, yes it isn't SI units, but at least millimetres of mercury and kilocalories have common abbreviations, which happen to match those of SI units
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18:28:56 <b_jonas> a liter is 10**(-3) m^3, a bar is 10**5 Pa, so they're at least powers of ten multiples of SI units. a kilopond is slightly less than 10 newton, a millimeter of mercury is around 133 pascal, and a kilocalory is around 4200 joule, but they're derived from the SI units kilogram and meter indirectly.
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18:29:57 <zzo38> (I am only saying that you should not generally add SI prefixes to non-SI units in abbreviations; in some cases they already do do such a thing commonly enough. I suppose you could also treat "mil" as an abbreviation for "milliinch".)
18:30:36 <b_jonas> as for SI prefixes, I would prefer if people would stick to stricter rules about the ones that aren't powers of 1000, that is centi, deci, deka, hecto, and effectively consider them depreciated and no longer productive prefixes, using them only when there's established practice using a specific prefixed unit for a domain.
18:31:22 <zzo38> For litres, I think "mL" is a common abbreviation, as is "L", and for bar, I think "mbar" is common, and for calories, "kCal".
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18:32:32 <zzo38> I think the ones that aren't powers of 1000 can be useful in some cases, such as maybe they should use myriahertz for the AM radio numbers (some old radio receivers do, but I have never seen them call this unit "myriahertz")
18:32:35 <b_jonas> for milliliter, "ml" is the normal abbreviation, but "mL" and m with a loopy l are sometimes used on products
18:32:44 <b_jonas> and yes, "mbar" is common
18:33:17 <b_jonas> "mbar" is used by engineers, which I know becuase I work with them on a project where they have pressure sensors and we display some perssures in mbar
18:34:24 <esowiki> [[User:Pipythonmc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77193 * Pipythonmc * (+171) Created page with "Hi! I'm a new user planning on making a 2D snake based language (a bit similar to ><> but with a different instruction pointer system) I'll update this page if I remember."
18:36:18 <b_jonas> I don't have any experience about the milliinches and stuff, those are used in North America but not here, so I only meet those units on the internet
18:37:22 <zzo38> I also don't like "tonne", I think is confusing with "ton", a suitable word instead of "tonne" should be "megagram"
18:37:26 <arseniiv> I heard inches are usually divided by powers of two
18:37:45 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, usually, although not always.
18:38:41 <zzo38> A IBM flowchart template I have includes inches in eighths, tenths, twelfths, and fifteenths. It also includes centimetres.
18:39:40 <arseniiv> zzo38: fifteenth, wow!
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18:43:07 <Hooloovo0> I think those are used in scale drawings; those triangular architectural rulers have some pretty wonky ratios on them
18:45:24 <Hooloovo0> in machine shops it's fairly common to speak of hundreths or thousandths of an inch - I've got a very nice machinists ruler with 1/32, 1/64, 1/50 and 1/100 scales
18:46:27 <Hooloovo0> for hertz, I've seen kilo/megacycles, but not myria
19:05:04 <kmc> what about kilomegacycles
19:05:07 <kmc> abbreviated kmc
19:07:25 <kmc> I have seen an old (published 1950) circuit diagram with "µµf" for pF
19:07:36 <kmc> i put it on a shirt. it's pretty esoteric https://i.imgur.com/szTRnRL.png
19:10:41 <zzo38> Shouldn't the abbreviation for "mega" being "M" rather than "m"? Also, I think that you should not put multiple prefixes, isn't it? Also, I have seen "cycles per second" but not not abbreviations like that (other than "cps")
19:11:37 <zzo38> kmc: O, I did not see such thing like that before, but now I did.
19:11:47 <zzo38> What is it a circuit diagram for?
19:16:34 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_per_second
19:16:35 <kmc> Hz was officially introduced in 1960
19:16:57 <kmc> kc and Mc were common abbreviations before that
19:18:08 <fizzie> I've read a book that used "millimicrometer", but it was very non-technical fiction, and I think intended more to evoke a sense of a very short distance rather than to describe a physical thing.
19:18:29 <kmc> whch book? sounds familiar
19:19:03 <fizzie> One of Donald E. Westlake's "Dortmunder" series, as it happens.
19:19:17 <Hooloovo0> I'd have guessed some kind of classic sci-fi
19:19:23 <zzo38> I have used the term "decimicron" to describe the default DVI units, and have later seen that some others have done the same.
19:19:46 <kmc> i think millimicrometer or millimicron were actually used in engineering prior to 1960 which is also the year when nano- was introduced
19:19:56 <kmc> https://themetricmaven.com/realm-of-measure/
19:20:33 <fizzie> "Around them hummed thousands—no, millions—of silent conversations, whistling and whispering through the cables; unfaithful husbands making assignations all unknowingly a millimicrometer away from their all-unknowing faithless wives; business deals being closed an eyelash distance from the unsuspecting subjects who’d be ruined by them; truth and lies flashing along cheek by jowl in parallel lanes,
19:20:39 <fizzie> never meeting; love and business, play and torment, hope and the end of hope all spun together inside the cables from the teeming telephones of Manhattan."
19:20:47 <fizzie> (They're hiding underground in a tunnel used for telephone cables and suchlike.)
19:21:34 <kmc> zzo38: the circuit is a 5-state ring counter. every time a pulse is presented on the "pulse bus" the next triode / neon bulb will start to conduct and the previous one shuts off
19:21:40 <fizzie> (From 1983, so not old enough to predate the nano- prefix.)
19:21:45 <kmc> it's from this book http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/era/High_Speed_Computing_Devices_1950.pdf
19:22:07 <zzo38> Have you seen "decimicron" used anywhere else?
19:22:44 <fizzie> The Lensman series of classic sci-fi probably had some wonky units. It definitely used "kilocycles" and so on in place of Hertz.
19:24:32 <fizzie> Oh, it has a "millimicrosecond" too.
19:28:57 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think so
19:29:10 <fizzie> Not for distance, but IIRC, the default time unit in one speech processing toolkit is 100 ns (to give a better-than-1µs precision while still allowing a 32-bit offset to represent durations up to a typical speech utterance, I think), and I think they might've called it decimicrosecond somewhere.
19:29:47 <Hooloovo0> iirc some old computer or something used microfortnights for delays
19:30:22 <Hooloovo0> the kind of delays that were "about a second, but we don't really know how fast our clock is running yet"
19:30:47 <zzo38> Yes, I have read that too
19:31:21 <fizzie> Though I'm not finding any matches for decimicrosecond in that context, so maybe they just called it a "100 ns unit".
19:32:11 <kmc> the Linux kernel famously uses "jiffies" as a time unit
19:32:54 <kmc> which is a configurable and platform-dependent unit
19:33:16 <b_jonas> kmc: does it still really? I thought that's mostly obsolate, and only appears in some obsolete interfaces.
19:33:21 <kmc> yeah, perhaps
19:33:29 * kmc is amused by microfortnights
19:33:33 <Hooloovo0> I think it still means "the system timer interrupt"
19:33:42 <Hooloovo0> well, the rate of ti
19:33:57 <b_jonas> there's a lot of compatibility of course, including user interfaces that used to be jiffies back when a jiffy had a single concrete value, but later were kept as just whatever that value is regardless of what jiffies are.
19:34:01 <kmc> but is there still a regular system timer interrupt
19:34:21 <kmc> I thought they moved to a tickless system where the kernel figures out before sleeping when the next event it will need to wake for is
19:34:31 <fizzie> Way back when I still cared about building a kernel, they were already introducing config flags for that sort of stuff.
19:34:41 <kmc> there are still scheduler timeslice units and such but not an interrupt that always fires regularly
19:34:42 <Hooloovo0> I'm unsure, but I know it's in the config file
19:36:29 <fizzie> CONFIG_NO_HZ, right.
19:36:41 <b_jonas> kmc: it figures out how much to sleep, but people want stupid low-latency UIs that react to their mouse movements in a <insert very small number> nanoseconds, and claim that they can see the difference, so on some systems we keep interrupting processes very often regardless that that slows down everything because a lot of cpu state, including the L1 cache and the L2 cache, keeps trampled when we switch
19:36:45 <Hooloovo0> yeah, looks like it
19:36:47 <b_jonas> between processes, when the CPU could perform well if you just let each process keep computing for a longer time.
19:36:55 <fizzie> (Haven't been following that at all.)
19:37:04 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure if that's an option on old/weird architectures
19:37:21 <b_jonas> kmc: I think some of the change was brought about when most kernels became SMP-capable. back in the old days, non-SMP kernels were the norm, because few people had more than one CPU core.
19:37:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77194&oldid=77189 * SunnyMoon * (+513) They do not work. :(
19:38:05 <b_jonas> but frankly I don't know much about the details. I'm a user programmer, not a kernel programmer, I don't care too much about the internals of the kernel.
19:40:43 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77195&oldid=77172 * SunnyMoon * (-18) I think people get confused here.
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20:43:24 <esowiki> [[LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77196&oldid=75886 * Amakukha * (-21) doesn't seem to based on APL
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20:47:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77197&oldid=23290 * Amakukha * (+365) /* Not APL-like */ new section
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22:27:26 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77198 * Zero * (+1649) ByteByteFork is ByteByteJump with multithreading
22:29:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77199&oldid=77198 * Zero * (+84)
22:31:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77200&oldid=77156 * Zero * (+19)
22:32:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77201&oldid=77199 * Zero * (+4)
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22:39:39 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77202&oldid=77201 * Zero * (+9)
22:40:17 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77203&oldid=77202 * Zero * (+17)
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22:54:43 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77204&oldid=77203 * Zero * (+2)
22:54:56 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77205&oldid=77204 * Zero * (+1)
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23:30:28 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77206&oldid=77174 * Camto * (+92) Add #
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2020-09-04
00:38:06 <esowiki> [[KRONKSCRIPT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77207 * McGoodmen * (+2525) Created page with "An Esolang by Zack Umar. Version 1.0.0 ==What is KRONKSCRIPT?== '''KRONKSCRIPT''' is an esoteric programming language based on Kronker Pepikrankenitz. If you do not know of..."
00:38:28 <esowiki> [[KRONKSCRIPT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77208&oldid=77207 * McGoodmen * (-1)
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02:17:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77209&oldid=77194 * Tetrapyronia * (+253)
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04:36:12 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77210&oldid=77185 * TwilightSparkle * (+157) /* Control Flow */
04:37:15 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77211&oldid=77210 * TwilightSparkle * (+197) /* If block */
04:38:11 <esowiki> [[,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77212&oldid=77195 * TwilightSparkle * (+95)
04:42:40 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77213&oldid=77206 * TwilightSparkle * (+133) /* Language specifications */
04:46:33 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77214&oldid=77213 * TwilightSparkle * (+193) /* Language specifications */
04:47:38 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77215&oldid=77211 * TwilightSparkle * (+153) /* If-else block */
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04:59:24 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77216&oldid=77215 * TwilightSparkle * (+40) /* If-else block */
05:09:53 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77217&oldid=77216 * TwilightSparkle * (+209) /* Control Flow */
05:14:44 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77218&oldid=77217 * TwilightSparkle * (+250)
05:26:49 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77219&oldid=77218 * TwilightSparkle * (+7) /* While loop */
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07:38:09 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77220&oldid=77166 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Overview */
07:39:15 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77221&oldid=77220 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Overview */
07:43:29 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77222&oldid=77221 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Projection */
07:45:36 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77223&oldid=77222 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Composition */
07:46:05 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77224&oldid=77223 * Hakerh400 * (-1) /* Composition */
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08:15:41 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77225&oldid=77205 * Zero * (+140)
08:17:22 <rain1> Is there a OIES thing for taylor series of functions?
08:23:34 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77226&oldid=77225 * Zero * (+212)
08:29:26 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77227&oldid=77226 * Zero * (+70)
08:36:19 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77228&oldid=77227 * Zero * (-43)
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09:31:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77229&oldid=77228 * Zero * (+179)
09:34:24 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77230&oldid=76966 * Orisphera * (+167) /* Quine */
09:36:22 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77231&oldid=77230 * Orisphera * (+126) /* The language */
10:12:57 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77232&oldid=77219 * TwilightSparkle * (+138) /* Easy */
10:13:18 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77233&oldid=77232 * TwilightSparkle * (+50) /* Comparison */
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12:29:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77234&oldid=76830 * Baidicoot * (+141)
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15:33:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77235&oldid=77229 * Zero * (+3200)
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15:35:28 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77236&oldid=77235 * Zero * (-3273)
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16:46:25 <rain1> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/PlasticConstant.html
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17:02:19 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77237&oldid=77236 * Zero * (+185)
17:03:01 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77238&oldid=77237 * Zero * (+10)
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17:35:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77239&oldid=77238 * Zero * (+483)
17:36:37 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77240&oldid=77239 * Zero * (-3)
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17:38:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77242&oldid=77209 * SunnyMoon * (+190) Okay...
17:51:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77243&oldid=77241 * Zero * (-4)
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19:30:13 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77244&oldid=77214 * Camto * (+328) Add q and w instructions.
19:54:03 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77245&oldid=77212 * SunnyMoon * (-76) my hate I grammar
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20:01:28 <ais523> one weird SI prefix exception is to do with farads; for whatever reason, electronic engineers never use millifarads (and this is something that's taught in textbooks)
20:01:56 <ais523> farads, microfarads, picofarads are all commonly used; according to Wikipedia, nanofarads aren't used in North America but are elsewhere
20:02:31 <ais523> in fact, I've been taught that if I see "mF", it is probably a misprinting/misencoding of "µF", rather than an actual indication of millifarads
20:04:00 <ais523> as for a symbol for minute, it does have a symbol, ′
20:04:10 <ais523> but it isn't commonly used because it looks so much like an apostrophe
20:04:20 <ais523> and SI recommends that it's abbreviated to "min"
20:04:59 <ais523> in practice, it only tends to be alonside ″ for seconds
20:05:46 <fizzie> Unless whoever did it couldn't figure out how to type those and went with ' and " instead.
20:07:22 <ais523> I can type ’ and ” easily enough, but they aren't the right codepoints
20:08:41 <zzo38> In many cases ' and " are suitable, although not always. However, I see them more often in angular measurement I think, such as those in ephemerides.
20:12:57 <ais523> there is an unambiguous symbol for arc-second, it's a seconds symbol with a circumflex on it, ′̂
20:13:02 <ais523> it doesn't render very well in this client
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20:35:06 <ais523> ooh, here's another example of silly SI-ish units; a "1.44 megabyte" floppy disk has a capacity of 1.44×1000×1024
20:35:23 <ais523> "1440 KiB" would be more accurate
20:36:19 <b_jonas> wait really
20:36:22 <b_jonas> I didn't know that
20:37:03 <b_jonas> makes sense
20:37:24 <ais523> well, it doesn't make sense, but it's at least mildly plausible how it could have happened
20:37:52 <b_jonas> so it's 1.47 MB or 1.40 MiB
20:37:53 <fizzie> ais523: 1.44 kKiB hth
20:38:02 <ais523> fizzie: I considered saying that :-)
20:38:36 <ais523> hmm, I still have some floppy disks, and even floppy disk drives
20:38:41 <ais523> although I haven't used either in years
20:39:09 <ais523> the data that was on them is backed up in numerous places, because they're so small relative to modern storage devices that you can just include a backup of all the floppy disks as a random part of other backups you make
20:39:18 <b_jonas> I don't have physical floppy disks or drives anyomre.
20:39:23 <ais523> so I haven't needed to use the disks themselves
20:39:31 <fizzie> When we went to prepare our flat back in Finland to be rented out, I hooked up a floppy drive to the skeleton of a computer that was still there, and imaged all the floppies.
20:39:41 <fizzie> I think maybe ~70% of them were still readable.
20:41:14 <fizzie> Also did the same for all the CD-Rs, which had a little better success rate, but not 100% either.
20:41:39 <spruit11> 20% off of all goods with jemalloc.
20:43:07 <zzo38> The man page for charmap(5) says that multi-bytes characters is not supported, but in the files on my computer, they seem to be used. The charmap files also have a section for widths, which are not mentioned in the man page, and all of the symbolic names seems to be Unicode numbers, but is this required? (You might want to define character sets which are not compatible with Unicode.)
20:54:00 <ais523> fizzie: now I'm wondering why you imaged them rather than just copying the files; were some of them using interesting copy protection mechanisms?
20:54:12 <ais523> or was it simply easier?
20:55:27 <fizzie> It was just easier. I don't expect any of them had any particularly exotic formats, but there was no storage on that computer and I had limited time, it was easier just to image them and upload back to home, and put them into the "sort through these later" pile.
20:55:43 <b_jonas> I think it's easier, and you can still get the files later.
20:58:47 <zzo38> Well, many programs can read disk images, such as you may be able to mount them on Linux, and 7-Zip can also read many kinds of disk image files
20:59:17 <zzo38> (Also copying the files may cause some of their attributes to be lost, depending on the file system)
20:59:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and since some of those disks have DOS programs, you can just use the images directly as emulated floppy disks in a virtual machine emulating DOS
21:00:52 <zzo38> Yes, I believe DOSBOX will also read the disk image files directly (although it doesn't support switching floppy disk images; switching is supported only for CDs)
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01:52:59 <fizzie> Heh, the TLS certificate expiration alert I set up for esolangs.org doesn't have the world's most user-friendly formatting. It's saying the expiration is in "2.587664476999998e+06 seconds".
01:55:47 <shachaf> > 2.587664476999998e+06 / 60 / 60 / 24
01:55:50 <lambdabot> 29.949820335648127
01:58:30 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77246&oldid=71201 * YamTokTpaFa * (+128) /* Other implementations */ another implementation
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04:15:17 <int-e> 86400~100k seconds a day
04:18:18 <int-e> fungot: how many days are there in a month?
04:18:18 <fungot> int-e: trace highlight that way has been done. repeatedly.) all qubits in fnord states have always resolved to 1, and 0 otherwise. now this implementation makes it impossible
04:18:44 <int-e> fungot: f**** you too
04:18:44 <fungot> int-e: long double is in c99 so i can fnord
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06:40:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77247&oldid=77242 * Tetrapyronia * (+397)
06:53:31 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77248&oldid=75888 * Cortex * (+6) /* C */
07:05:48 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77249&oldid=77243 * Zero * (+3)
07:07:41 <esowiki> [[Squi~~le]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77250 * Cortex * (+362) g
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07:08:56 <esowiki> [[Squi~~le]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77251&oldid=77250 * Cortex * (+36) woops
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08:31:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Reinhardt * New user account
08:36:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77252&oldid=77192 * Reinhardt * (+161) /* Introductions */
08:37:09 <esowiki> [[User:Reinhardt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77253 * Reinhardt * (+19) Created page with "I'm a set of things"
09:24:59 <esowiki> [[,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77254&oldid=77245 * TwilightSparkle * (+95) Why did you remove that
10:03:10 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77255&oldid=77233 * TwilightSparkle * (+237)
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10:28:45 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77256&oldid=77255 * TwilightSparkle * (-5) /* While loop */ Ha!
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10:30:25 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77257&oldid=77256 * TwilightSparkle * (+10) /* While loop */
10:47:41 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77258&oldid=77257 * TwilightSparkle * (+86) /* Operations */
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11:40:02 <rain1> hello
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12:13:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baidicoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77259&oldid=72837 * Osmarks * (+103)
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13:07:06 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77260&oldid=76637 * TwilightSparkle * (-777) /* CGCC */ The contest ended due to the development of MAWP.
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13:22:16 <b_jonas> Can you link me to a well-written description of the basics of byzantian generals problem and what we know about it? I was trying to read it from the ed. Iványi book, but that chapter is written in some crazy unreadable style so I can't make heads or tails of it.
13:26:17 * b_jonas looks at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault
13:32:03 <b_jonas> ok, that one has useful links
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13:53:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77261&oldid=77249 * Zero * (+62)
13:54:51 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77262&oldid=77261 * Zero * (+0)
13:55:48 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77263&oldid=77262 * Zero * (+24)
13:56:18 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77264&oldid=77263 * Zero * (+29)
13:56:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77265&oldid=77264 * Zero * (+0)
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14:30:16 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77266&oldid=77258 * TwilightSparkle * (+167) /* Operations */
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15:01:29 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77267&oldid=77265 * Zero * (+1465)
15:01:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77268&oldid=76996 * TwilightSparkle * (+125)
15:03:44 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77269&oldid=77267 * Zero * (+0)
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16:58:46 <arseniiv_> I think there is an affine space of dimension −1, contrary to linear spaces
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16:59:22 <b_jonas> what? dimension -1? what would that even mean? what kind of dimension?
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17:01:36 <arseniiv> I came to this while considering a function F from Set to Aff_K which maps a set X to a free affine space (over K) which has points {F(x), x ∈ X} as a maximal independent subset
17:02:09 <arseniiv> so F({x1, …, xn}) gives an (n−1)-dimensional affine space
17:03:45 <arseniiv> and we can take F(∅) and get an empty affine space, I think. And thus it should have dimension −1
17:04:17 <arseniiv> (F({∗}) gives us a single point as a space)
17:07:12 <arseniiv> we can obtain something in this vein obtaining an affine space one dimension lower as a level set of some linear form. Going from one-dimensional space, we get a point, and going from zero-dimensional one, we get an empty set
17:07:30 <arseniiv> my wording today is awful
17:09:31 <arseniiv> we should have the same for projective spaces too. In which case it should look pretty natural
17:10:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77270&oldid=77268 * SunnyMoon * (+215) SCHOOL!
17:10:56 <arseniiv> BTW are there arguments for deg (zero polynomial) being −1 vs. −∞? Is it pretty natural to define it as −1? I saw −∞ a couple of times but but
17:12:19 <int-e> arseniiv: deg(0) = deg(x*0) = deg(x)+deg(0)
17:12:35 <int-e> doesn't work for -1, works reasonably well for -oo.
17:13:10 <int-e> you could also argue for +oo by counting roots ;)
17:13:39 <int-e> but maybe you want to preserve something like deg(p) != deg(q) ==> deg(p+q) = max(deg(p), deg(q)).
17:14:46 <int-e> otoh, p | q ==> deg(p) <= deg(q) doesn't work for -oo.
17:15:09 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks
17:17:08 <arseniiv> regarding divisibility in N, I joke that 0 is infinite, as it should equal 2^∞ 3^∞ 5^∞ …
17:17:55 <rain1> what about the p-adics?
17:29:48 <int-e> divisibility is boring in fields
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18:05:10 <arseniiv> yeah
18:05:46 <arseniiv> int-e: rain1: though one can consider p-adic *integers*, not all of them?
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18:26:20 <int-e> arseniiv: Hmm. Well, then all numbers not divisible by p are units (invertible), so it all boils down to the number of trailing zeros. But okay, it's more interesting than the field.
18:28:36 <arseniiv> at least a bit!
18:35:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77271&oldid=77270 * SunnyMoon * (+90) OH NO!
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19:18:47 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77272&oldid=76623 * Palaiologos * (-13) update deadlinks
20:50:52 <shachaf> When you give an SMT solver an arbitrary boolean expression -- without any theories, just boolean variables -- what does it do with it?
20:51:45 <shachaf> Is there some sort of Tseytin transformation, or is it something else?
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21:06:14 <spruit11> SAT solver or SMT solver?
21:06:23 <shachaf> SMT.
21:06:35 <shachaf> SAT solvers presumably just take CNF and let other people worry about this.
21:06:47 <shachaf> But SMT solvers that I've seen tend to take arbitrary boolean expressions.
21:47:41 <spruit11> Dunno. In a SAT solver I think of unbound variable as existentially quantified. So possibly it's the same with SMT solvers?
21:47:48 <spruit11> *+s
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21:58:22 <shachaf> I don't mean quantification, that's the same (unless you have a solver with quantifiers).
21:58:37 <shachaf> I just mean boolean expressions like a && (b || !(c || d)) etc.
22:07:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think you can convert those to an ordinary CNF expression by introducing temporaries for all those subexpressions
22:07:40 <b_jonas> by temporaries I mean new variables that aren't in your expression but that will be in the CNF expression that you feed to the SAT solver
22:08:01 <b_jonas> but maybe I just don't understand how all this SAT-solver business works
22:09:06 <shachaf> Yes. I'm wondering whether this is what SMT solvers are actually doing.
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23:45:24 <Hooloovo0> ok bug report for the mornington crescent article: king's cross is in the syntax section but not the actual language specs
23:47:17 <fizzie> There's a platform 0 at the King's Cross station [*1], it's a true programmer's station. [*1] The National Rail part, not the Tube.
23:47:52 <Hooloovo0> oh, I see. it's not special, but it's a station. cool
2020-09-06
00:03:53 <shachaf> Aha. At least Yices2 seems to do that exactly.
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03:25:21 <int-e> `w
03:25:23 <HackEso> ᛁᚿ//ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
03:25:26 <int-e> `'
03:25:27 <HackEso> 961) <kmc> i don't know what that is so i'm going to assume it's a flavor of pocky
03:25:51 <int-e> `hwrl ᛁᚿ
03:25:52 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/%20%E1%9B%81%E1%9A%BF
03:33:27 <int-e> `w
03:33:28 <HackEso> gazpacho//You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
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04:22:29 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77273&oldid=77260 * TwilightSparkle * (+113)
04:23:08 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77274&oldid=77273 * TwilightSparkle * (-1) /* Others */
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06:31:58 <kmc> fizzie: do many National Rail stations have a platform 0?
06:35:28 <zzo38> Are you good at runes?
06:39:12 <esowiki> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77275&oldid=77246 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Other implementations */ typo
06:55:44 <esowiki> [[Datums]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77276 * BlueOkiris * (+5497) A data-oriented esoteric programming language with (basically) only 3 commands created by Dylan Turner aka BlueOkiris
06:57:26 <esowiki> [[User:BlueOkiris]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77277&oldid=49885 * BlueOkiris * (-26)
06:57:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77278&oldid=77200 * BlueOkiris * (+13) /* D */
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09:52:51 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77279&oldid=77269 * Zero * (+36)
09:53:23 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77280&oldid=77279 * Zero * (+2)
09:54:00 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77281&oldid=77280 * Zero * (+0)
10:26:01 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77282&oldid=77281 * Zero * (+871)
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10:27:36 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77283&oldid=77282 * Zero * (+0)
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11:34:59 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77284&oldid=76910 * SunnyMoon * (+0) I realized that most Hello World programs print "Hello, World!" rather than "Hello, world!"
11:36:00 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77285&oldid=77254 * SunnyMoon * (+0) "Hello, World!", not "Hello, world!".
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12:20:35 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77286&oldid=77283 * Zero * (+1399)
12:32:24 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77287&oldid=77286 * Zero * (+830)
12:34:39 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77288&oldid=77287 * Zero * (+18)
12:52:38 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77289&oldid=77288 * Zero * (+603)
12:57:18 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77290&oldid=77289 * Zero * (+390)
13:06:31 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77291&oldid=77290 * Zero * (-22)
13:11:16 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77292&oldid=77291 * Zero * (+109)
13:13:16 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77293&oldid=77292 * Zero * (+28)
13:16:46 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77294&oldid=77293 * Zero * (-1)
13:21:27 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77295&oldid=77294 * Zero * (+322)
13:22:02 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77296&oldid=77295 * Zero * (-2)
13:22:28 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77297&oldid=77296 * Zero * (-44)
13:24:23 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77298&oldid=77297 * Zero * (+6)
13:30:32 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77299&oldid=77298 * Zero * (+283)
13:36:03 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77300&oldid=77299 * Zero * (-307)
13:46:04 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77301&oldid=77300 * Zero * (-284)
13:56:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77302&oldid=77301 * Zero * (+208)
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14:09:47 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77303&oldid=77302 * Zero * (-4433)
14:10:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteFork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77304 * Zero * (+4397) Created page with "== Possible evolution == Where to go from there? ===== Infinite memory ===== If we're going to make it look like The Matrix, the memory should be "conceptually" infinite..."
14:21:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77305&oldid=77304 * Zero * (+104)
14:23:15 <fizzie> kmc: I think there's about 10 of them around. I don't think any of them have started with a platform 0, they've all just added a platform and wanted to avoid renumbering. No-one's gone to -1 yet.
14:25:37 <fizzie> My primary source on platform-zero-ology has been https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTHOyTypNs8 though I knew about the King's Cross one before.
14:45:44 <Arcorann_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_0 <-- Wikipedia for reference
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14:50:08 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77306&oldid=77303 * Zero * (+8)
14:56:06 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77307&oldid=77306 * Zero * (+262)
15:16:11 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77308&oldid=77307 * Zero * (+26)
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16:11:22 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77309&oldid=77308 * Zero * (+99)
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18:21:47 <esowiki> [[Datums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77310&oldid=77276 * BlueOkiris * (+491) /* Datums */
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18:46:57 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77311 * SunnyMoon * (+4084) I think everyone was waiting for this page!
18:48:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77312&oldid=77271 * SunnyMoon * (+113) Breaking news!
18:50:38 <imode> doing some interesting work in compiling string rewriting rules down to C, and later down to assembly in the hopes of writing a JITed interpreter.
18:55:40 <imode> hard to give the compiler something useful to chew on. forming a trie and then generating a giant nested switch/case.
18:58:16 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77313&oldid=77182 * SunnyMoon * (-35) Page has been created!
18:59:13 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77314&oldid=77313 * SunnyMoon * (-38) Jelly is already in this wiki too!
19:00:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77315&oldid=77278 * SunnyMoon * (+13) 05AB1E!
19:18:59 <rain1> that sounds peval-able in some ways
19:19:03 <rain1> i dont know
19:20:03 <b_jonas> imode: have you looked at https://snowballstem.org/algorithms/ ? that compiles string transformation rules to C
19:20:18 <imode> I have not.
19:21:22 <imode> that's neat though, I need to give that a full read.
19:22:20 <imode> one of the things I want to do initially is write a brainfuck-to-rewrite-rules compiler. got the tape up and running (that can be dynamically resized). comparing with the tritium BF interpreter it's slower, but not _that_ much slower.
19:24:25 <imode> https://hastebin.com/lefogitefo.txt
19:25:20 <imode> the fact that tritium does JITing and optimizations whereas I'm using Go, treat tokens as fat multi-symbol strings and use a trie for rule matching makes me confused as to how they're even comparable.
19:30:06 <imode> a set of useful optimizations would be to 1. use symbolic integer tokens instead of strings, 2. make better use of built-ins (you can see `seek`, which just speeds up the rewriting process by removing the need to find the active rewriting site), 3. compile the trie down to some actual machine code that gives you back the required "yes this matched, here's the RHS" result.
19:30:30 <imode> then it'd be stupid fast. my goal is using it as a compiler target.
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2020-09-07
03:10:51 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77316&oldid=77311 * TwilightSparkle * (+38) /* Cat program */
03:12:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77317&oldid=77312 * TwilightSparkle * (+422)
03:26:43 <esowiki> [[Datums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77318&oldid=77310 * BlueOkiris * (+0) /* Examples */
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03:40:40 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77319&oldid=77316 * TwilightSparkle * (+223) /* Truth-machine */ 05AB1E is my first golfing language.
03:42:16 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77320&oldid=77319 * TwilightSparkle * (-160) /* Cat program */
03:44:28 <zzo38> Are there text only Pokemon battle simulators in C?
03:44:44 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77321&oldid=77320 * TwilightSparkle * (-41) /* Truth-machine */
04:17:03 <esowiki> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77322&oldid=77275 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /./!/
04:24:51 <imode> probably.
04:28:25 <zzo38> I started something, but it isn't very much yet. It is intended to be a data set suitable for such purpose, and a C program to implement it, with a telnet interface, usable on local networks (no internet connection is needed).
04:44:53 <int-e> `'
04:44:54 <HackEso> 879) <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good.
04:54:06 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77323&oldid=73776 * Hakerh400 * (+2404) Add more examples
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04:56:21 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77324&oldid=77323 * Hakerh400 * (+13)
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05:35:26 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77325&oldid=77324 * Hakerh400 * (+1150) Add one more example
06:18:28 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77326&oldid=77325 * Hakerh400 * (+882) Just two more examples
06:20:29 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77327&oldid=77326 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
06:25:57 <int-e> imode: are you working with any pure string rewrite (Thue) programs without extensions ("builtins"?)
06:26:29 <int-e> The builtins kind of killed my interest.
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06:35:56 <imode> int-e: yeah. our use of built-ins is pretty small. I've only been making use of "seek", which takes a pattern and moves it next to another pattern.
06:36:41 <imode> which can be reasonably simulated by some intermediary tokens. it was just intended for cutting down on time spent moving symbols around.
06:37:17 <imode> built-ins can't be used until we have a suitable mock for them in actual rewrite rules. referential transparency and all that.
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09:31:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bananaapple * New user account
09:33:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77328&oldid=77252 * Bananaapple * (+248)
09:50:08 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77329&oldid=62330 * Bananaapple * (+119)
09:59:28 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77330&oldid=77329 * Bananaapple * (+75)
10:06:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77331&oldid=77183 * Orisphera * (+97) /* General Ideas */
10:07:48 <esowiki> [[User:Bananaapple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77332 * Bananaapple * (+126) Created page with "Inb4 Real users don't have user pages. Look at my gitlab for my nim esolang stuff: https://gitgud.io/bananaapple/esolangs-nim"
10:17:59 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77333&oldid=77321 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Implicit input is GREAT!
10:20:48 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77334&oldid=77333 * SunnyMoon * (+0) I think linefeeds are prohibited in truth-machines.
10:31:44 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77335&oldid=77334 * SunnyMoon * (-1) >:-(
10:33:13 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77336&oldid=77335 * SunnyMoon * (+3) AHH THE DISSATISFACTION
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10:41:51 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77337&oldid=77336 * SunnyMoon * (+104) Implicit input!
10:50:17 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77338&oldid=77337 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Fibonacci was a person.
10:55:07 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77339&oldid=77191 * SunnyMoon * (+34) 05AB1E!
10:56:47 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77340&oldid=76959 * SunnyMoon * (+21) 05AB1E!
10:59:22 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77341&oldid=77159 * SunnyMoon * (+24) 05AB1E!
10:59:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77342&oldid=77341 * SunnyMoon * (+1) OH NOES!
11:00:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77343&oldid=77342 * SunnyMoon * (+0) AAAAH!!!!!
11:01:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77344&oldid=77066 * SunnyMoon * (+140) Redirection proposal.
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12:43:50 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77345&oldid=72983 * Zero * (+1)
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14:16:24 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergolden_ratio
15:04:27 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77346&oldid=77181 * SunnyMoon * (+216) Game dev update.
15:05:18 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77347&oldid=77346 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Oop
15:11:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:05AB1E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77348 * SunnyMoon * (+173) Double sources?
15:14:01 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77349&oldid=77327 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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17:19:31 <bananaapple> Sup guys, I wrote my first interpreter today ^^ for Filth
17:39:31 <bananaapple> exit
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17:42:26 <rain1> well done bananaappel
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20:05:10 <zzo38> What is it called if you aim one attack and then fire a different attack instead?
20:13:20 <myname> a mistake
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20:13:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: as in deliberately because the first attack has an easier interface to aim and it keeps the aim as you switch to the second attack?
20:14:23 <b_jonas> like aiming with a zoom sniper and then shooting a rocket exactly at the same point?
20:24:52 <zzo38> No. I mean when the second attack does not benefit at all from the first attack's aim.
20:34:09 <zzo38> GURPS doesn't mention aim of different attacks benefiting each other, although I suppose in some cases it might make sense, such as if you have a laser gun with two modes, or if you have two different kind of breath attacks, etc.
20:42:21 <zzo38> That is what I did. I started by aiming a magic staff which shoots fire balls (there was only one charge left), and next turn used a psychic mind blast instead, which does not benefit from the aim at all. It did end up helping.
20:55:00 <zzo38> Next thing to do is to write some mark on some clothing for a otyugh, which is difficult due to not having any suitable clothing.
20:58:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: so why did you do that? to distract the enemies by making them think you'll do a different attack so they can't react well?
20:59:02 <zzo38> Yes.
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23:24:24 <spruit11> Neat: https://twitter.com/StefanSzeider/status/1302868135633211392?s=20
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2020-09-08
00:29:52 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77350&oldid=77338 * JonoCode9374 * (-21)
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04:21:22 <int-e> spruit11: so... glucose is the only improvement, everything else made matters worse ;)
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04:43:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77351&oldid=77317 * TwilightSparkle * (+192)
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08:21:11 <arseniiv> isn’t the weather nice
08:27:20 <arseniiv> I’m disposing of my old C++, HTML, CSS, JS, Delphi and something books putting them away to do something later. Shame they almost surely aren’t interesting to anyone for some time, as there are internet resources aplenty
08:28:12 <arseniiv> and C++ ones weren’t even about any of the modern language standards
08:28:47 <arseniiv> even at their printing dates :(
08:33:00 <arseniiv> maybe their authors thought the differences are minor and mainly surface-level, or maybe those were the times so even they weren’t knowledgeable enough. There wasn’t much choice in bookstores on really interesting topics, and I was wise to cease going there to search something programming-related long ago. But not too long ago to have no dead weight on the shelf
08:46:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77352&oldid=77344 * Keymaker * (+205) Reply.
08:48:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77353&oldid=77352 * Keymaker * (+238) Another reply.
08:52:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices
08:52:57 <b_jonas> you can't really do anything with them unless you need a doorstopper
08:53:22 <arseniiv> hah
08:54:05 <int-e> kindling for a fire
08:54:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW have it ended well for that monitor with sticky buttons?
08:54:49 <int-e> Hmm. Fahrenheit 451
08:55:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: probably yes. on thursday and friday it seemed to be working fine. it will need a few more days of testing, but right now I'm a bit ill so I'm working from home, so I can't tell for sure yet
08:56:12 <arseniiv> <int-e> kindling for a fire => they really picked an interesting word to name their ebook readers, yeah
08:56:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh
08:57:05 <b_jonas> I would like to work in the office, and would be if this was last year
08:57:42 <b_jonas> but right now both my boss and my supervisor told me very clearly that we are not to work in while we are ill
08:57:51 <b_jonas> so either I can work from home, or not at all
08:58:00 <arseniiv> maybe that’s for the best if it’s quiet at home
08:58:55 <b_jonas> this is not a too tenable position, if I always have to work from home when I'm a bit ill, then I miss too much in the office, but there's not much I can do now
08:59:10 <b_jonas> yes, I have no kids
08:59:57 <arseniiv> they say a cold is not as severe if one’s moving not too much and can be in comfort temperature-wise
09:00:14 <b_jonas> anyway, I'll be afk for a bit, I actually have to run into the office now because I left the mouse in there. I knew I had to bring the mouse, but somehow messed it up when I packed the notebook. probably concentrated on making sure that I bring the HDMI cable.
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09:00:49 <arseniiv> though for something flu-like that would be more of a necessity, to avoid complications like bacteria etc
09:01:09 <int-e> arseniiv: Well, Google used "Nexus" for their android device brand, which is a very interesting literary reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F
09:01:21 <b_jonas> also I'm going to buy a new non-work computer for home, I'll tell about it later
09:01:45 <b_jonas> I'm both excited and a bit terrified because now I know approximately how much it will cost, even though the order isn't finalized yet
09:02:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wish you luck for all of that combined!
09:03:15 <b_jonas> thx
09:03:47 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I didn’t remember they were called Nexus there
09:08:25 <arseniiv> s/remember/know/; I even didn’t watch the movie adaptation but heard of all that
09:10:02 <int-e> I only discovered this a few years ago when reading the novel.
09:42:29 <rain1> there exists a universal turing machine
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09:43:05 <arseniiv> nice!
09:44:01 <rain1> assume we can decide halting with a turing machine, then define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T)) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:18 <arseniiv> (I couldn’t contain myself; this wasn’t intended to look snarky so if it ended up being such, sorry)
09:44:21 <Taneb> <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices <--- I remember when I was first learning C from a textbook my dad used at uni
09:44:24 <rain1> How do we get a contradiction again? Halts(Lie(Lie(Lie(...))) ??
09:44:37 <rain1> maybe I need to define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T(T))) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:48 <Taneb> It gave a Hello World relying on very architecture-specific undefined behaviour
09:45:18 <rain1> then we can case on Halts(Lie(Lie)): if it does it doesn't if it doesn't it does
09:45:45 <rain1> but we can recursively enumerate the turing machines that do halt
09:46:42 <rain1> Now suppose there is a turing machine that determines if a turing machine that takes an input halts on all of its inputs
09:47:09 <rain1> AlwaysHalts(TM) = TM(0) halts and TM(1) halts and etc..
09:47:26 <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts?
09:48:02 <rain1> certainly AlwaysHalts lets us implement halts, just make a turing machine that drops its input and executes a TM that takes no input
09:49:09 <rain1> We can enumerate all halting TMs, so we can use the universal TM with that to construct a turing machine with input n that executes the n'th turing machine that halts I think? And AlwaysHalts is true of this
09:50:06 <arseniiv> hm it really does seem to be stronger, as there are infinitely many inputs and we can’t prove a TM halts for all of them in finite time…
09:50:06 <rain1> it makes sense that Halts wouldn't be able to answer this question, since if you wanted to tweak it to have no input you could maybe have it execute every halting TM in sequence
09:50:12 <rain1> but that wouldn't halt even though every single TM would halt
09:50:16 <rain1> but this isn't a proof
09:50:35 <arseniiv> yeah
09:50:44 <rain1> Can we do another simple Liar type construction?
09:51:07 <cpressey> <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? <-- show that AlwaysHalts is only recursively enumerable *even if* you have an oracle that answers Halts for you
09:51:39 <rain1> I like that
09:52:07 <cpressey> Something like Liar but that calls the oracle might work
09:52:37 <arseniiv> so one needs to show that its complement is not enumerable hm
09:53:59 <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?)
09:55:26 <rain1> I feel like we could enumerate these: we would loop over n and make sure the n'th turing machine doesn't halt. So this language is the union of NthLoops(0) u NthLoops(1) u ...
09:55:45 <int-e> fungot: do you know any compliments?
09:55:45 <fungot> int-e: in drscheme random works for me... i am not very good
09:55:48 <arseniiv> <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) => yep
09:57:16 <arseniiv> fungot: don’t be so shy
09:57:17 <fungot> arseniiv: okay, now what would happen
09:59:41 <arseniiv> rain1: but again we wouldn’t get the negative answer is finite time?
09:59:57 <arseniiv> in*
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10:08:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77354&oldid=77328 * DGCK81LNN * (+271)
10:08:59 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77355&oldid=75742 * DGCK81LNN * (+280) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ Added another version I created
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10:18:40 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+658) Created page with "Hi, my username is quite confusing and you can call me Roy. I'm from China and I'm kinda addicted in in [[Befunge]] these days. __NOTOC__ ==== A [[Befunge]] program that creat..."
10:19:32 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77357&oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+0)
10:28:14 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77358&oldid=77357 * DGCK81LNN * (+594)
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11:05:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77359&oldid=77351 * SunnyMoon * (+161) Answer alert!
11:33:46 <rain1> hmm
11:33:49 <rain1> i don't really get this
11:34:01 <rain1> i willl try some scribbling later
11:58:03 <esowiki> [[Truth machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77360 * SunnyMoon * (+27) Redirection.
11:59:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77361&oldid=77353 * SunnyMoon * (+118) Done!
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14:36:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Supyovalk * New user account
14:42:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77362&oldid=77354 * Supyovalk * (+153) /* Introductions */
14:43:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77363&oldid=77362 * Supyovalk * (+90)
14:44:22 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77364&oldid=74696 * Supyovalk * (+218) /* Examples in programming languages */
14:45:49 <esowiki> [[T]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77365 * Lebster * (+110) Created page with "T is a work-in-progress esolang being created by [[user:Lebster]]. The project started in early september 2020"
14:46:30 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=75987 * Lebster * (+110) /* Created Languages */
14:46:32 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77367&oldid=77364 * Supyovalk * (-35) /* Phyton 3.0 - removed useless print lines*/
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18:19:34 <rain1> any updates on turing machines?
18:22:21 <arseniiv> rain1: IDK, I’m dumb today
18:24:12 <arseniiv> I woke up earlier to receive a midi keyboard I ordered and it arrived only just a twenty minutes ago :D
18:24:30 <arseniiv> logistic difficultes
18:24:42 <rain1> oh fun!
18:24:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baguette * New user account
18:25:21 <arseniiv> I think I’ll read a bit of webfiction, go sleeping and only tomorrow unpack this thing and check if everything’s alright
18:25:32 <rain1> > A machine with an oracle for the halting problem can determine whether particular Turing machines will halt on particular inputs, but they cannot determine, in general, whether machines equivalent to themselves will halt
18:25:35 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:129: error: <hint>:1:129: error: parse error on input ‘,’
18:25:36 <rain1> this is understable
18:25:44 <rain1> have a good night!
18:27:06 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, I have a fluttering mood a couple of days now, I hope I’ll restart making some music, maybe I’ll be able to explore microtonality (though the 12edo keyboard is not as optimal, it’s still way better than nothing!)
18:27:53 <arseniiv> thanks, have a good night also when you’ll go to sleep!
18:28:19 <arseniiv> hopefully there would be absolutely no defects
18:28:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77369&oldid=77363 * Baguette * (+392) /* Introductions */
18:28:47 <arseniiv> I’m a bit anxious when it comes to buying things of this scale
18:29:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77370&oldid=77369 * Baguette * (+1) /* Introductions */
18:51:22 <rain1> https://twitter.com/apu_yokai/status/1303308968521940994
18:51:28 <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages
18:52:52 <kmc> oh neat
18:54:03 <kmc> that reminds me, i got an ad for this toy the other day https://www.turingtumble.com/
18:55:37 <hendursaga> kmc: I remember when they were doing the Kickstarter for that, I believe someone came up with a simulator not long after
18:56:42 <arseniiv> <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages => wow, and relatively simple!
18:57:04 <kmc> cool
18:57:12 <rain1> omg thats so awesom
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19:08:42 <arseniiv> reminds a bit of Turing trains or what were they called
19:31:02 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+2137) Create the SCREAMCODE page
19:32:42 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77372&oldid=76864 * Baguette * (+75) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
19:37:09 <esowiki> [[User:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77373 * Baguette * (+84) Created page with "I'm an 18-year-old Computer Science student, and the loser that made [[SCREAMCODE]]."
19:40:10 <rain1> we can talk about recognition and acceptance of languages
19:44:18 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77374&oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+155)
19:59:20 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77375&oldid=77374 * Baguette * (+34) Specify tape size
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20:01:27 <imode> that linkage thing is hella neat.
20:01:52 <imode> http://www.cr31.co.uk/stagecast/trains/tt0_intro.html <-- the turing trains thing.
20:02:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Openttd, and I was just thinking of it because I think there's some unexplored eso-potential for building the same logic circuits in a less efficient way
20:06:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77376 * Baguette * (+50) Created page with "If you want, you can email me at baguette@SDF.ORG."
20:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77377&oldid=77315 * Baguette * (+17) /* S */
20:12:46 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77378&oldid=77375 * Baguette * (+28)
20:17:57 <fizzie> I did some crude OpenTTD logic gates back some 15 years ago, and probably talked about them here.
20:19:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that before or after path-based signals?
20:21:12 <fizzie> Right on the dot, more or less. NPF ("New Pathfinding") was in the trunk, but not in any release. It did rely on that.
20:21:20 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic if you're interested.
20:21:55 <fizzie> Actually, maybe it predates path signals and just relies on pre-signals.
20:22:27 <b_jonas> oh, pre-signals are much older, they come from ttdpatch
20:22:40 <b_jonas> and most logic relies on pre-signals or path-based signals
20:22:50 <b_jonas> most of it relies on at least some pre-signals
20:23:07 <b_jonas> even if you use path signals, pre-signals are needed for some parts of the logic
20:23:51 <b_jonas> but I admit there's still a lot that I don't understand about openttd logic
20:24:13 <fizzie> "The path signals follow a different concept and were first introduced with OpenTTD version 0.7." Okay, it's before that, because the writeup mentions 0.4.0.1 as the most recent release.
20:24:22 <b_jonas> mostly because all the tutorials and coop savegames have horribly large complicated examples, not small minimal constructions to demonstrate one thing and only tha
20:26:09 <b_jonas> "The image is rather big: a 1450x708px PNG" ah yes, that is old.
20:27:02 <fizzie> I don't know if it really counted as that big any more, TBH.
20:28:34 <b_jonas> so far the openttd games that I play don't incorporate any specific logic, that is, there are signals to make trains run smoothly, but no specific tracks and signals and trains just for logic, not even the simple priority crossing
20:28:42 <b_jonas> but this might chnage
20:29:18 <b_jonas> if I manage to understand how logic works, I'll probably add eso-logic that makes the trains less efficient in effect, but more fun to watch
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21:17:48 <esowiki> [[Godelfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77379 * Salpynx * (+24) redirect from ascii
21:17:52 <oshaboy> There is an entire channel for esolangs?
21:18:06 <oshaboy> I have actually been working on an esolang as a dare
21:18:15 <oshaboy> A RISC assembly with only 8 bit instructions
21:18:23 <oshaboy> not 8 bit opcodes like the 6502
21:18:29 <oshaboy> 8 bit instructions
21:18:29 <imode> it gets weirder from here.
21:18:53 <oshaboy> I know you can modify brainfuck to RISC and get 4 bit instructions
21:19:00 <oshaboy> It's actually not really an esolang
21:19:16 <oshaboy> I put quite a bit of effort to cram the most useful stuff into 256 instructions
21:19:43 <oshaboy> Maybe I should try making one with a 6 bit instruction width
21:19:50 <oshaboy> So all programs will be in base 64
21:20:58 <b_jonas> `welcome oshaboy
21:21:01 <HackEso> oshaboy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:21:16 <b_jonas> yes, there's an entire channel. but it doesn't always stay on topic.
21:21:52 <oshaboy> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13043UrFZGNRNyHOM0GJprrVCFdFIiRqx05xet2FEQSM/edit?usp=sharing
21:21:56 <oshaboy> Here are the details
21:22:04 <oshaboy> I just made some room for 7 more instructions
21:22:11 <oshaboy> What do you think I should add?
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21:48:54 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77380&oldid=77378 * Baguette * (+20)
21:53:35 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77381&oldid=77380 * Baguette * (+28)
21:57:33 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77382&oldid=77381 * Baguette * (-15)
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21:59:14 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that seems like it only has a very inefficient way to load an immediate to a register. you need like six instructions for it, unless I'm missing something.
22:00:25 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how you have a "SUB AX,BY" macro that expands to "SUB X,Y" when there doesn't seem to be an instruction or macro "SUB X,Y"
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22:07:15 <b_jonas> oshaboy: have you considered restricting some of those instructions in favor of being able to load an immediate byte more efficiently, since that's useful and you only have indirect jumps; or cheating by adding an instruction that loads from the immediate byte after the instruction and skips that byte; or at least cheating with PC-relative addresses like in PDP-8?
22:08:58 <moony> b_jonas: Talked with them about it earlier
22:09:10 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how jumps farther than 128 bytes work, since all the branch instructions seem to have only short offsets
22:09:11 <moony> they're strongly opposed to immediates of any form for some reason.
22:09:45 <b_jonas> and since the code doesn't seem very compact, you will need a lot of far jumps
22:09:58 <b_jonas> are you supposed to set up a jump ladder like once every 120 bytes?
22:10:15 <b_jonas> also have you written any example programs and interpreter?
22:10:17 <shachaf> i,i SUB AX,BY = AB SUB X,Y
22:10:39 <moony> iirc they've done neither?
22:10:56 <b_jonas> having all of LDIFF, SUBF, and FLIPF seems rather redundant
22:20:02 <b_jonas> moony: I guess I just don't know what counts as a "RISC" here. if I really wanted to build something low-level with 8-bit opcodes, I'd make it full cisc.
22:20:30 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure how much you need to be able to call it "RISC", so I can't give good advice.
22:21:40 <oshaboy> b_jonas: Yes, loading immidiates is quite inefficient, but I doubt there is a better way
22:22:01 <oshaboy> b_jonas: the psuedo ops are based on an older instruction set, I didn't update them
22:23:27 <oshaboy> b_jonas: There is LONGJUMP
22:23:54 <oshaboy> which is absolute
22:24:16 <b_jonas> ok
22:25:17 <oshaboy> Well if I have a loader of the next byte it isn't really an 8 bit instruction, is it
22:26:03 <b_jonas> that's why I said "cheat"
22:26:07 <oshaboy> Also how often do you need an immediate that requires more than 3 bits set?
22:26:11 <oshaboy> *immideate
22:26:18 <b_jonas> oshaboy: often, if that's how you can short jump[
22:26:49 <oshaboy> I can't spell
22:27:05 <oshaboy> Good point
22:27:29 <oshaboy> but you can also store an immiditi you use often in memory
22:27:44 <b_jonas> oshaboy: how do you load it though? you have to load the address first
22:28:28 <oshaboy> Maybe I will add an unconditional skip so you can sneak bytes into the code
22:31:30 <oshaboy> So if you do xor x,x; set; putf x,1; memory a,x; skip; byte 0xaa;
22:32:26 <oshaboy> I don't know, I think it is easier to just do xor a,a; set; putf a,1; putf a,3; putf a,5; putf a,7
22:32:39 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that's hardly an improvement, you can already load anything with just five or six instructions I think
22:32:56 <b_jonas> I mean any byte
22:33:27 <oshaboy> I think bit sets are enough
22:33:40 <oshaboy> ldi is a bit cheating
22:33:58 <oshaboy> requires 2 clock cycles on a theoretical processor
22:34:54 <oshaboy> Usually on RISC the only commands that require more than 1 cycle are memory and branch instructions
22:35:01 <oshaboy> also this is kind of an esolang anyway
22:35:12 <oshaboy> so weird implementation is kind of a given
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22:41:05 <imode> look at y'all talking about processor cycles and stuff that takes nanoseconds. I'm jelly.
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22:47:53 <moony> b_jonas: looking at their instruction set, they have a fatal flaw with the whole "RISC" thing anyways:
22:48:12 <moony> it's more complex to implement than a proper RISC
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22:56:33 <zzo38> Is there a version of the "Fixed" fonts with DEC encodings and other encodings?
22:58:25 <zzo38> (With what I have, some characters will not work.)
22:58:27 <moony> zzo38: monospace font?
22:59:24 <zzo38> Yes, and specifically bitmap font too
23:00:09 <moony> zzo38: which encodings? DEC has multiple
23:00:54 <zzo38> All of them.
23:01:32 <moony> i mean, unicode fonts should support most things...?
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23:02:39 <moony> fun, Unicode is missing some from DEC Technical
23:02:40 <zzo38> Well, they don't. For one thing, the DEC Technical character set is not supported.
23:03:08 <moony> the problem characters are 31 through 37, rest have unicode equivs
23:03:52 <moony> those in particular
23:04:03 <moony> you could solve by making your own font data in the private use area
23:04:16 <moony> and having some translation method
23:04:28 <zzo38> Yes, although I do not want a Unicode encoded font, but rather a font encoded using the DEC encoding
23:05:06 <moony> I don't know if anything even would support such a font
23:05:12 <moony> what's the usecase?
23:05:16 <moony> and on what software?
23:05:28 <zzo38> (Conversion between Unicode and other encodings is not always lossless anyways)
23:05:35 <zzo38> Well, to make a better terminal emulator.
23:05:57 <moony> I think you might need to develop the font yourself
23:06:25 <moony> best way to do that would be to render unicode characters and make good use of the private use area, imo
23:06:34 <zzo38> (and the character properties between Unicode and other character sets do not always match, either)
23:07:35 <moony> PUA can have whatever properties you want
23:08:54 <zzo38> How can you tell programs to use them though? As far as I know, I have not seen any such thing.
23:09:15 <moony> zzo38: Your terminal emulator is presumably the only thing that'd use it, internally, to make font handling easier
23:09:49 <moony> would let you use an existing font renderer
23:11:38 <zzo38> X has font rendering
23:12:25 <moony> X font rendering probably shouldn't be used. It's effectively deprecated, like the rest of X that's not just frame buffers
23:12:54 <shachaf> Don't people still use Xft?
23:12:56 <shachaf> I don't know.
23:13:12 <moony> Pretty much everything uses freetype and other renderers directly in a framebuffer
23:13:43 <zzo38> Well, I prefer to use bitmap fonts instead, and I think the X font rendering is suitable
23:14:16 <moony> if you want bitmap, implement it yourself, it's very simple for monospace. Xft is on it's last legs.
23:14:32 <moony> even then freetype supports bitmap
23:14:39 <zzo38> I don't mean Xft; I mean the X core font rendering
23:15:36 <moony> X core font rendering is extremely legacy
23:16:52 <zzo38> That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
23:17:24 <moony> if something is included with distributions solely for compatibility reasons, you probably shouldn't use it
23:17:36 <moony> you'd be writing modern legacy software
23:19:06 <moony> it's been legacy since 2000
23:19:21 <moony> and probably a bit earlier than that
23:20:01 <moony> it's better for future compatibility to not depend on old X11 features
23:20:52 <moony> Currently, Wayland is starting to make it's way into being the default windowing environment for some distributions
23:21:11 <shachaf> Wayland just seems worse than X.
23:21:30 <shachaf> I sure hope people don't settle on it.
23:22:32 <zzo38> I still use X and do not want to use Wayland. Would there be a way to display Wayland programs inside of a X window though (each one in its own window)?
23:22:51 <moony> Programs will likely support both for a long time
23:23:10 <moony> most people use wrappers for handling window initialization/framebuffers so their stuff works on all platforms
23:24:15 <shachaf> I wrote Xlib code and it was a little clunky but overall it worked OK.
23:24:27 <shachaf> Then I tried to port my thing to Wayland and it was so unpleasant I just gave up.
23:24:53 <moony> as I use rust, I'm usually using Winit or a similar wrapper that handles the details for me. For C/C++ there's SDL2
23:26:22 <shachaf> SDL is OK until it doesn't do something you want.
23:26:44 <shachaf> But if a platform API is good, it should be usable directly.
23:26:55 <shachaf> Wayland's excuse "everyone just uses GTK anyway" is ridiculous.
23:27:09 <shachaf> (The excuse for only doing client-side decorations.)
23:27:39 <zzo38> I sometimes use SDL1, for some things.
23:28:07 <zzo38> I don't like GTK much though; I like some of the features of Xaw, which newer libraries don't do
23:28:37 <moony> shachaf: xdg-decoration was added for this. Either way I do agree Wayland isn't ideal
23:28:40 <zzo38> And it does not seem to be able to configure GTK to work like Xaw
23:28:45 <moony> but it's also best to not depend on old X11 features
23:28:59 <shachaf> Which old X11 features?
23:29:08 <moony> X core font in zzo38's case
23:29:25 <shachaf> Oh. Maybe?
23:30:35 <moony> zzo38: per Xorg's info on fonts: `While X.Org continues to maintain the core fonts system, client software authors are encouraged to switch to Xft as soon as possible.`
23:30:52 <moony> so it's either xft, or using freetype/etc like most of the ecosystem
23:31:40 <zzo38> moony: Yes, I know that, and I don't want to use that. I specifically want to use non-Unicode bitmap fonts.
23:32:23 <shachaf> Too bad text rendering is incredibly complicated.
23:32:30 <moony> you can use bitmap fonts though. And refusing to use Unicode will get you into a host of issues, tbh
23:32:48 <moony> this is the kind of situation private use areas were allocated for
23:33:06 <moony> if you need to be able to redefine font data though, which I believe some terminals can do
23:33:13 <moony> you'd be better off drawing the font yourself
23:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, and a different set of issues than refusing to use stuff other than Unicode. It depends on the application. Unicode is helpful for displaying web pages, for one thing. For many things it just gets in the way though.
23:34:55 <zzo38> (PUA only partially helps. It causes its own set of problems.)
23:35:31 <zzo38> (And, of course, for some thing is very good idea to avoid homoglyph attacks.)
23:37:07 <moony> if my goal was high compat with DEC terminals, i'd implement the font rendering myself, and store character data as u16s with a UTF-8 mapping available to convert it as needed
23:37:47 <moony> (which, on that note, a high compat terminal is in my interest, working on VAX emulation and all)
23:40:33 <zzo38> One problem with using Unicode for terminal emulation is the need for character property tables. (I designed my own encoding for terminal emulation (and not for anything else; it is for one use only) that gets rid of the need for character property tables.)
23:40:37 <zzo38> What terminals does VAX use?
23:40:45 <moony> various VTs
23:41:26 <moony> for system consoles, it's a custom terminal, iirc VAX-11/780's is a PDP-11/terminal hybrid that handles the whole bootstrap process alongside being a way to interface with the machine
23:42:26 <zzo38> I did think is VT, being DEC VAX, but that doesn't tell me which one. Also, is there a document for the terminal codes for the system consoles?
23:43:07 <moony> System consoles have an entirely custom, machine dependent bus. It's not worth the time trying to emulate them separately from the VAX itself
23:43:19 <moony> as for the VTs used: all of them. It's a super-mini, you can hook whatever to it
23:44:13 <b_jonas> fungot, where did you hide the body?
23:44:13 <fungot> b_jonas: anything else i could do it in bf: fnord/ fnord/ fr-wiki-data and i just asked
23:44:30 * moony grabs 780 maint handbook real quick
23:45:04 <zzo38> Yes, I expected as much, but which were common (or were all DEC terminals common)? Even if it is not worth trying to emulate the system consoles separately from the VAX itself, still would be helpful to know what the codes are, both to write software for VAX and just being curious to compare them.
23:45:06 <shachaf> ^style
23:45:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
23:45:18 <shachaf> ^style ukparl
23:45:18 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
23:45:39 <moony> codes are the same as a normal VT system. VT220, VT340, etc, were all common. Just look at the most common VTs and you'll know the most common for use with VAX :P
23:47:09 <zzo38> O, so they are the same codes, even if it is a custom terminal.
23:47:09 <moony> VAX-11/780's system console is connected by a 30 pin cable to a card in the cabinet, for example. No point in emulating that
23:47:12 <moony> yes
23:48:14 <zzo38> Yes, there probably is no point emulating VAX system console except for emulating VAX itself.
23:48:50 <moony> especially as the 780 system console basically has direct access to the ucode pathways, so it'd be abstracted away in any sane emulator
23:52:25 <moony> I've looked into implementing a ucode level 780 emulator and it looks like quite a large task, and it'd have terrible performance
23:52:27 <moony> for little gain
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2020-09-09
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00:27:59 <spruit11> 'Do something with format specifiers' they told. 'It'll be fun they' they told me.
00:28:09 <spruit11> Down another rabbit hole.
00:42:11 <imode> I don't see how rule-based programming can be anywhere as fast as imperative programming. the hot loop of searching for which rule to match alone is going to take more time than a single instruction.
00:44:31 <zzo38> Depending on the programming language, it might be possible to make it fast after the program has been compiled.
00:46:47 <imode> I don't see how. my base case is rewrite rules over strings. the matcher logic for a given ruleset can be compiled down to a trie or a DFA, and that can be turned into native code, but in my tests, that's still too slow.
00:48:24 <zzo38> Well, I just made the suggestion.
00:50:09 <imode> yeah... it'd thrash the branch predictor.
00:59:02 <moony> if you're lucky and there's some pattern to it, you might be able to get a Zen (AMD Ryzen/Threadripper/EPYC lines) CPU to cooperate with the branches, but I think that's really it
01:06:41 <spruit11> That's just correct. Usually, rule-based languages or rewriters are slower than imperative programming. But they're still useful.
01:07:53 <spruit11> With Herculean effort you can sometimes compile programs down to their imperative counterpart, though. But usually not.
01:13:33 <imode> doubtful that it's possible with string rewriting.
01:15:01 <spruit11> Depends on the rules and what you think is the imperative counterpart to those rules. But in general, impossible.
01:18:21 <imode> it's sad because there's so many useful things about the paradigm. your state is just the current "fact store" (the string in the case of string rewriting) and the rules that are run against the fact store. how in the hell is prolog performant.
01:22:04 <spruit11> Haskell can do it sometimes. Something like: Take 'fac', analyze it as better strict, compile the matches to conditions, translate the recursion to a loop. Presto, same microcode as the C equivalent.
01:23:15 <spruit11> But that's a whole lot of compiler voodoo. I guess something like 40 manyears to arrive in that state.
01:24:06 <spruit11> The same effort as writing a compiler for a lazy functional language and then attach a normal C compiler with optimizations to it.
01:25:54 <imode> rule based programming is just full of conditions, though. the core loop is just if/else if/else if/else if/else if/else if/... unless you have a reasonable way of shortcutting that linear search.
01:26:53 <imode> even if you compiled that down to assembly, the basis would just be a bunch of branches.
01:30:52 <spruit11> There's a lot of additional voodoo in term rewriters to try and compile most of that out. Mostly -whatsitscalled- deforestation. Just preven intermediate things you match against from ever existing by clever fusion rules.
01:31:07 <spruit11> *prevent
01:42:40 <imode> hm, I should look into that.
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02:58:04 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{} {}" "hello" "world"
02:58:04 <egelbot> "hello world"
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03:30:23 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{} {:#06x}" "a number" 42
03:30:24 <egelbot> "a number 0x002a"
03:30:32 <spruit11> By popular request.
03:47:51 <spruit11> 'Verazol, Parter of Currents' was leaked. Looks interesting.
04:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77383 * Tetrapyronia * (+235) Created page with "Do the commands that take input pop the items they use? Ex. Does (add top 2) on the stack (1,2) turn the stack into (1,2,3) or (3)? ~~~~"
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07:19:26 <rain1> hi
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08:01:03 <rain1> Theorem. There are Turing computable partial functions that have no extension to a total Turing computable function. In particular, the partial function f defined so that f(n) = m if and only if the Turing machine with index n halts on input 0 with output m has no extension to a total computable function.
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08:55:53 <int-e> . o O ( M(T) := if f(T(T)) = 1 then 0 else 1 )
09:09:04 <rain1> so f is just eval([N(0)])
09:09:22 <rain1> M is taking in T and evaling [T(T)(0)] ?
09:09:28 <rain1> and not'ing its result
09:14:12 <int-e> Since f is passing an argument, I guess M should take two arguments, M(T,x) = if f([\x. `T`(`T`,x)]) = 1 then 0 else 1 )
09:14:35 <int-e> And as usual there's a substitution step involved.
09:14:45 <int-e> (as usual in those diagonalization constructions)
09:14:59 <rain1> oh and what properties is this M going to have?
09:15:58 <int-e> Then you look at f([\x. M([M],x)]).
09:16:53 <int-e> Meh, my notation isn't good enough.
09:18:11 <rain1> notationally, this stuff can be pretty awkward
09:18:12 <int-e> But the point is that M is supposed to reconstruct \x. M([M],x) from [M].
09:18:21 <rain1> maybe quasiquotes like in lisp would be good
09:18:23 <int-e> And pass the result to f.
09:19:12 <int-e> so that f([\x. M([M],x)]) = 1 <--> f([\x. M([M],x)]) = 0
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09:39:57 <kritixilithos> rain1: what's meant by 'extension'?
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11:30:22 <rain1> kritixilithos
11:30:37 <rain1> f(x) is defined for some values and the turing machine does not halt so it is not defined for other values
11:30:58 <rain1> an extension is a function that matches it on defined values, and may terminate and produce values on f's undefineds
11:31:12 <rain1> i was thinking how nice it would be to assign types to turing machise
11:31:20 <rain1> just like <Ty> ::= N | <Ty> -> <Ty>
11:32:40 <rain1> but you can't really do this
11:33:04 <rain1> the liar program essentially depends on you putting T(T(T(T(...))) basically an infinite type/non well founded type
11:33:58 <rain1> intuitive concepts are matched up with formal things on the arithmetic heierearchy
11:34:28 <rain1> decidable set: t.m. halts with 1 if element is in the set, 0 if element is not in the set -- this is a Delta_0^1 set
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11:34:48 <rain1> semidecidable set: t.m. halts with 1 if element is in the set, diverges if not -- this is a Sigma_0^1 set
11:35:32 <rain1> the set of all total computable functions: every element of this set is a t.m. that halts on all inputs - this is suppose to be Pi_2
11:35:46 <rain1> I don't really know why yet
11:35:53 <rain1> I need to study posts theorem
11:36:05 <rain1> and I need to know about turing jumps (?)
11:48:03 <kritixilithos> rain1: thanks for the definition. curious, what resources are you using to learn about this?
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12:28:31 <rain1> wikipedia.. :<
12:28:35 <rain1> i need a better resource
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13:11:27 <rain1> I think the halting problem proof can be done at any level
13:11:33 <rain1> so lets call normal one level 0
13:11:38 <rain1> we showed Halt does not exist at level 0
13:11:56 <rain1> but assume Halt exists at level 1 (i.e. level 1 is turing machines with a halting oracle)
13:12:11 <myname> it can be
13:12:18 <myname> there is an esolang with that premise iirc
13:12:20 <rain1> we can't implement Halt_1 at this level
13:12:30 <rain1> Halt_1 being a decision procedure that tells you if a level 1 machine halts
13:12:46 <rain1> and we just use the same proof as the normal halting problem proof?
13:13:03 <myname> yes
13:13:17 <myname> for each halting problem level you can solve, you will create a new one
13:13:24 <rain1> this is good
13:21:30 <rain1> how does this relate to arithmetic heierarchy
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13:22:30 <kritixilithos> "<rain1> i need a better resource" i had started https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~fstephan/recursiontheory-pdflatex.pdf a while back
13:22:45 <rain1> oh yeah i remember this
13:22:50 <rain1> thanks!
13:25:36 <kritixilithos> some proofs however aren't shown in full, so i took a break from it to start reading another book
13:30:10 <kritixilithos> but then again, asking for a proof that diophantine sets are r.e. might be a bit too much
13:32:45 <rain1> there is a good book on that, hilberts 10th problem
13:32:59 <rain1> the hardest part was finding a way to express exponentiation
13:35:18 <kritixilithos> thanks, might take a look into that later
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14:35:28 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77384 * Zero * (+2184) Created page with " = THE_LAST_ACTION_LANGUAGE = == overview == * natural-language agnostic (all keywords are 1 special character) so you can program in Toki Pona * values are mutabl..."
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14:40:22 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77385&oldid=77384 * Zero * (+3)
14:42:51 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77386&oldid=77385 * Zero * (+93)
14:43:21 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77387&oldid=77386 * Zero * (+12)
14:48:08 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77388&oldid=77387 * Zero * (+57)
14:49:22 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77389&oldid=77388 * Zero * (+23)
14:57:14 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77390&oldid=77389 * Zero * (+55)
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15:16:46 <rain1> the terminology is so slippery
15:16:57 <rain1> i feel like any source uses a slightly different set of terms
15:18:03 <kritixilithos> which ones do you specifically mean?
15:18:45 <rain1> just stuff like recursive, semidecidable, recursively enumerable, etc.
15:19:38 <kritixilithos> huh i haven't yet seen another source mean something different for any of those
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15:34:46 <rain1> I am homing in on the result I was interested in
15:35:00 <rain1> https://imgur.com/a/ZuvsRyf
15:37:34 <kritixilithos> where is that from?
15:37:50 <rain1> R.E. sets and degrees - Robert Soare
15:39:13 <rain1> i dont know if id recommend it
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15:39:31 <rain1> i just want to know this one thing
15:39:39 <rain1> but it seems to depend on a lot of theory
15:41:04 <kritixilithos> what is it that you want to know?
15:41:08 <rain1> its hard to untangle the notation
15:41:30 <rain1> I want a proof that the "uniform halting problem" is harder than the halting problem
15:41:43 <rain1> by UHP i mean: Deciding whether a turing machine halts on all inputs
15:42:06 <rain1> determining if a turing machine halts on N inputs (for any finite N) is equivalent to the halting problem
15:42:14 <rain1> but for all inputs it seems to be harder
15:42:33 <kritixilithos> okay, i haven't yet learnt about "hardness"
15:42:59 <kritixilithos> oh you mean to prove they're not equivalent
15:43:01 <rain1> by harder I mean that we can't compute it even if we have a halting oracle
15:43:25 <rain1> yeah
15:49:05 <fizzie> The Mohs scale of computational hardness.
15:50:00 <kritixilithos> :|
15:53:22 <rain1> I would like a self contained proof of Posts theorem
15:53:34 <rain1> it's annoying to have to read 3 chapters of a book just to have the notation for this theorem
15:55:54 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77391&oldid=77390 * Zero * (+20)
15:57:49 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77392&oldid=77391 * Zero * (+9)
15:58:56 <rain1> I think I can ask a really good question now
15:59:29 <rain1> How does a Turing machine with a Halt_1 oracle decide if a Turing machine halts on all inputs?
15:59:46 <rain1> A Halt_1 oracle means that we have the ability to decide if any Turing Machine with a halting oracle halts or not
16:00:42 <kritixilithos> ah, so the first level halting oracle is Halt_0?
16:02:51 <rain1> yeah
16:03:10 <rain1> so we have 3 levels here: Basic TMs, TMs with a halting oracle (halt0), TMs with a halt1 oracle
16:03:52 <rain1> level0 1 and 2
16:04:10 <rain1> So we can implement some kind of level1 TM and ask if it halts to decide something about a level0 machine
16:05:05 <kritixilithos> did you figure it out yet?
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16:06:29 <rain1> no I just managed to ask this question which crystalizes exactly what I want to know
16:07:51 <rain1> although I need to prove 2 things actually: That the problem is not solvable on level 1 and it is solvable on level 2
16:09:47 <rain1> I think this works
16:10:00 <rain1> def X(T : TM_0):
16:10:07 <rain1> for n = 0 and up:
16:10:26 <rain1> if !Halt0('T(n)'): return
16:10:54 <rain1> now when we ask Halt1(X(T)) we get an answer to whether T halts on all inputs or not
16:11:33 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77393&oldid=77392 * Zero * (+1393)
16:12:57 <kritixilithos> sounds like it, now for the first part
16:13:45 <rain1> the first part may be harder
16:13:55 <rain1> hopefully it is solvable
16:14:57 <rain1> So assume for contradiction that we can decide if a TM halts on all inputs or not, at level 1
16:15:27 <rain1> Then we have a total procedure Tot(T : TM0) which returns 0 if it's input is not total and 1 if it is
16:15:43 <rain1> we also have access to a halting oracle (Tot will have been implemented using this)
16:16:00 <rain1> so now it would be nice to perform some kind of diagonalization/liar construction to show this cannot happen
16:17:23 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77394&oldid=77393 * Zero * (+249)
16:20:23 <b_jonas> "<spruit11> 'Do something with format specifiers' they told." => I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood me. I did mention formatted numeric output, but I didn't specifically mention format specifiers, it could have been raw format primitives too, and I would certainly never suggest new python style braced format specifiers, I HATE those, they're ruining the whole purpose of format specifiers that C and
16:20:29 <b_jonas> python perfected and making a mocking parody from them. If anyone told me they want to do a format parser, I'd suggest them to use C-like percent escapes (or common lisp-like tilde escapes if they prefer)
16:21:40 <b_jonas> nor would I ever suggest you to use a vararg formatting function in a curried language
16:22:38 <b_jonas> I program python, and I use the C-like formatting function, which is still there and supported and works *almost* well, except that for some reason they haven't added hex float output format to it yet, but that shouldn't be hard to fix
16:23:04 <rain1> one thing I would say is that it seems very hard to do a simple diagonalization proof
16:23:14 <rain1> because our primitive can only be applied to stuff at the level below
16:23:25 <rain1> whereas with turings proof: we assume halt can be applied to our own levle
16:23:35 <b_jonas> but even if you have a format parser, I'd suggest to add the underlying primitives to the public API too, so people can write their own format parser, and format afloating-point numbers in decimal without having to make a format pattern from it
16:24:39 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77395&oldid=76969 * Abyxlrz * (+1)
16:25:01 <b_jonas> spruit11: ^
16:25:21 <b_jonas> on the other hand, this might still be more useful than nothing.
16:26:01 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77396&oldid=77394 * Zero * (+353)
16:26:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 67)
16:26:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah
16:26:26 <spruit11> Oh, right.
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16:26:54 <spruit11> There you go.
16:27:15 <rain1> could we use a relative rice theorem?
16:28:59 <spruit11> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 67)
16:28:59 <egelbot> "C"
16:30:09 <spruit11> egelbot: def box = [ 0 -> nil | N -> cons (N-1) (box (N-1)) ];; def map = [ F nil -> nil | F (cons X XX) -> cons (F X) (map F XX) ];; map [ X -> format "{:#04x}" X ] (box 16)
16:30:09 <egelbot> {"0x0f", "0x0e", "0x0d", "0x0c", "0x0b", "0x0a", "0x09", "0x08", "0x07", "0x06", "0x05", "0x04", "0x03", "0x02", "0x01", "0x00"}
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16:34:45 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77397&oldid=77396 * Zero * (+387)
16:35:54 <spruit11> b_jonas: No worries. It wasn't actually yours or mine decision in the end. I either a) drop to C internally, which is awkward, b) use C++ stream specifiers, which is hard to work with/a lot of work, or c) use C++20 braced format. I didn't really have a choice except choose the last one.
16:36:25 -!- xelxebar has joined.
16:36:50 <spruit11> I like them. Good enough.
16:37:31 <spruit11> I just wish I coud use them in the reverse direction too. To read input.
16:37:34 <spruit11> *could
16:38:55 <kritixilithos> https://cs.stackexchange.com/q/129977 :)
16:40:06 <spruit11> And I like the variadic stuff too. So we just disagree on that.
16:40:43 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{1} {0} {1}" 1 2
16:40:43 <egelbot> "2 1 2"
16:41:26 <b_jonas> spruit11: yes, to some extent the interfaces in the C and C++ standard library are awkward too. But formatting floating point numbers correctly is so hard that I don't recommend anyone to reimplement it. Even if you make a whole format library, you often want to do those, there are countless precedents of programs that do that even if on windows you have to work around the weird float printer of windows
16:41:32 <b_jonas> libc (which always prints three digits for the exponent and prints infs and nans weirdly) and have to work around libc on linux (in which the formatter works fine, but the scanner has some weird behavior that is probably correct and can't be changed now but nobody really knows what the correct behavior of fscanf should be and how to fix problems when you have to be compatible with old programs).
16:41:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 67)
16:41:38 <egelbot> "C"
16:41:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 65)
16:41:42 <egelbot> "A"
16:41:51 <b_jonas> great, so we have an easier way to chr now
16:42:07 <spruit11> I am sure C++40 will once get format right. Seems a good bet.
16:42:09 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}-{:c}" 0xE1 0x151)
16:42:09 <egelbot> internal:1:24:lexical:error in hexadecimal int
16:42:16 <spruit11> lowercase
16:42:22 <b_jonas> I refuse
16:42:33 <spruit11> I'll add then once.
16:42:39 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}-{:c}" 225 337)
16:42:39 <egelbot> "�-Q"
16:42:46 <b_jonas> nope
16:42:47 <spruit11> It's still in alpha!
16:43:24 <b_jonas> ok, so how do I make utf-8 formatted characters from their ucs code point, is there a different formatter for that?
16:43:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:C}-{:C}" 225 337)
16:43:30 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:43:34 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:lc}-{:lc}" 225 337)
16:43:34 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:43:42 <spruit11> Dunno. I hardly tested.
16:44:26 <spruit11> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/format/format
16:44:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}{:c}-{:c}{:c}" 195 161 197 145)
16:44:30 <egelbot> "á-ő"
16:44:33 <b_jonas> that's better
16:44:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77398&oldid=77397 * Zero * (+228)
16:44:54 <b_jonas> that means I can output arbitrary bytes
16:45:02 <b_jonas> well, I hope
16:45:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: String:append (format "{:c}" 195) (format "{:c}" 161)
16:45:21 <egelbot> "��"
16:45:23 <b_jonas> nope
16:45:35 <b_jonas> apparently only valid utf-8, it gets decoded from utf-8 right after format
16:45:39 <b_jonas> oh well
16:46:09 <b_jonas> it's not like I really care about this part
16:46:15 <b_jonas> let me see what else you did
16:47:00 <rain1> I feel really happy because this question has made me realize just how little I know about turing machines an
16:48:00 <spruit11> That's about it. I spend a day or two making the interpreter a bit faster. But you won't notice that.
16:48:56 <kritixilithos> are you going to ask your other question?
16:49:35 <b_jonas> egelbot: [v->format "{.2f} {.8f} {.2g} {.8g} {.2e} {.8e}" v v v v v v] -8862.395521078714
16:49:35 <egelbot> internal:1:3:semantical:undeclared v
16:49:46 <spruit11> Uppercase.
16:49:48 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{.2f} {.8f} {.2g} {.8g} {.2e} {.8e}" V V V V V V] -8862.395521078714
16:49:48 <egelbot> exception("System:- bad arguments")
16:50:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] -8862.395521078714
16:50:08 <egelbot> exception("System:- bad arguments")
16:50:13 <spruit11> Oh, darn. I forgot to add a rewrite rule for monadic minus.
16:50:21 <spruit11> That's a bug.
16:50:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395521078714)
16:50:22 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39552108 -8.9e+03 -8862.3955 -8.86e+03 -8.86239552e+03"
16:50:38 <b_jonas> that looks correct
16:50:40 <spruit11> I didn't forget?
16:50:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395)
16:50:42 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39500000 -8.9e+03 -8862.395 -8.86e+03 -8.86239500e+03"
16:51:01 <spruit11> Oh, it interpreted that as a dyadic minus expression.
16:51:38 <spruit11> [X->X] -2 = [X->X] - 2.
16:51:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#.2f} {:#.8f} {:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:51:40 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:51:49 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2#f} {:.8#f} {:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:51:49 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:52:00 <b_jonas> hmm
16:52:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:52:40 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:52:42 <spruit11> It's still a bit rough around the edges. The C++ format throws an error on that of which I don't propagate the message.
16:52:56 <b_jonas> ?
16:53:18 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f}" V V] (-8862)
16:53:18 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:53:31 <spruit11> It only says 'invalid arguments' whereas I probably could give a more descriptive error.
16:53:34 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862)
16:53:34 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:53:55 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395)
16:53:55 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39500000 -8.9e+03 -8862.395 -8.86e+03 -8.86239500e+03"
16:54:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862.395)
16:54:15 <egelbot> "-8862.40"
16:54:24 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:24 <egelbot> "-8862.00"
16:54:25 <b_jonas> oh
16:54:28 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2#f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:28 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:54:31 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#.2f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:31 <egelbot> "-8862.00"
16:54:34 <b_jonas> that's better
16:54:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:40 <egelbot> "-8862.000000"
16:54:44 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:44 <egelbot> "-8862.00"
16:54:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-8862449.0)
16:54:59 <egelbot> "-8.86245e+06"
16:55:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-886244.0)
16:55:02 <egelbot> "-886244.0"
16:55:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-886244.2)
16:55:06 <egelbot> "-886244.0"
16:55:11 <b_jonas> perfect
16:55:14 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:g}" V] (-886244.2)
16:55:14 <egelbot> "-886244"
16:55:50 <spruit11> Well, it's not my doing. It's the `fmt` library they're adding to C++20 once.
16:56:09 <spruit11> Okay, it's my doing in that I want to leverage C++.
16:56:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:d} {:X}" V V] 2769927127
16:56:15 <egelbot> "2769927127 A519BBD7"
16:56:21 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77399&oldid=77398 * Zero * (+384)
16:56:30 <b_jonas> correct
16:56:33 * V makes a pained face
16:58:12 <int-e> `? spam
16:58:14 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
16:58:18 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{0} {0}" "∀"
16:58:18 <egelbot> "∀ ∀"
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16:59:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "%X" 15898557144921403118
16:59:38 <egelbot> "%X"
16:59:44 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" 15898557144921403118
16:59:44 <egelbot> "7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"
16:59:52 <b_jonas> egelbot: 15898557144921403118
16:59:52 <egelbot> 9223372036854775807
17:00:01 <b_jonas> egelbot: 1<<63
17:00:01 <egelbot> -9223372036854775808
17:00:21 <b_jonas> it just saturates integer literals that are too large? interesting
17:00:33 <spruit11> 64 bit ints yeah.
17:00:53 <spruit11> I could replace that with bigints once but I won't.
17:00:56 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77400&oldid=77399 * Zero * (+249)
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17:01:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: (-9223372036854775808)
17:01:32 <egelbot> -9223372036854775808
17:01:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: 9223372036854775808
17:01:40 <egelbot> 9223372036854775807
17:01:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" -1538786743794826979
17:01:51 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
17:01:57 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" (-1538786743794826979)
17:01:57 <egelbot> "-155ADE6400F87EE3"
17:02:01 <b_jonas> ?
17:02:05 <b_jonas> definitely not
17:02:29 <b_jonas> ok, maybe
17:03:02 <b_jonas> so it formats a signed 64-bit value, not an unsigned one
17:03:09 <b_jonas> how you would get libc to do that I have no idea
17:03:15 <b_jonas> oh well
17:03:54 <b_jonas> I mean it doesn't even have format specifiers that format a signed integer as hex, if you try the number just gets interpreted as an unsigned number
17:05:29 <spruit11> Heh? Not sure what you asking but `fmt` defines the handlers for a large number of basic C types. So this is the handler which formats signed 64 bit integers.
17:05:53 <spruit11> Well, according to the system you're on.
17:06:18 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{}" {1}
17:06:18 <egelbot> "{1}"
17:06:24 <b_jonas> spruit11: which fmt? I mean libc's printf doesn't define such formatters. other formatting libraries might.
17:06:57 <spruit11> `fmt` is the library they're adding to C++20 as `std::format`.
17:06:57 <HackEso> fmt`? No such file or directory
17:07:03 <spruit11> It's what I use.
17:08:43 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77401&oldid=77400 * Zero * (+773)
17:11:39 <b_jonas> oh yeah, another of those
17:14:50 <fizzie> Hey, I think I used fmt for something. It seemed sane.
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17:15:43 <spruit11> The compilers are a bit slacking in adoption of it. But it's fine. I just ship with `fmt` for the moment.
17:16:53 <spruit11> Most of the work was looking whether it was implemented and then incorperating `fmt` instead.
17:17:28 <spruit11> Pretty sure by C++40 you'll have all the format specifiers you want.
17:22:30 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77402&oldid=77401 * Zero * (+513)
17:22:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: you can probably use an implementation that's not in libstdc++ but elsewhere, such as in boost, that is close enough
17:23:00 <b_jonas> possibly with a namespace alias so it's easy to switch it over to a different implementation
17:23:24 <spruit11> I want to keep my dependencies to a minimum. I am already getting unsatisfied with libicu.
17:23:30 <fizzie> Near the end of the century, it's going to get seriously confusing how the 2096 C++96 actually post-dates C++98. The same with C standards.
17:23:33 <fizzie> IMO, they should've called C11 -> C111, C18 -> C118, C2x -> C12x. If it's good enough for tm_year, it should be good enough for standard abbreviations as well.
17:24:09 <fizzie> That would have also meant that publishing a new C standard in 2028 could've given us a C128.
17:25:03 <b_jonas> that said, I like C printf
17:25:17 <b_jonas> it's not perfect, but it's usually good enough
17:25:17 <spruit11> Makes two of us.
17:25:25 <b_jonas> better than most of the nonsense that they put in newer languages
17:26:01 <spruit11> Heh, I just assume there's some sanity behind it.
17:26:06 <aaaaaa> fizzie: upvote
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17:33:09 <zzo38> SQLite has its own printf, which can be called from C codes and from SQL codes. It is mostly like the C printf.
17:35:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77403&oldid=77402 * Zero * (+698)
17:36:34 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77404&oldid=77403 * Zero * (+13)
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17:44:28 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77405&oldid=77404 * Zero * (+451)
17:46:52 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77406&oldid=77405 * Zero * (-14)
17:48:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77407&oldid=77406 * Zero * (+1)
17:56:38 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77408&oldid=77407 * Zero * (-1)
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18:00:53 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77409&oldid=77408 * Zero * (+10)
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18:07:56 <kmc> fizzie: bold of you to assume that human civilization will survive to 2096
18:09:20 <kmc> right now the sky outside my window is a dark orange color
18:09:26 <kmc> light level comparable to an hour or more before sunrise
18:09:31 <kmc> it is 11 AM
18:09:36 <kmc> see also every photo on https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/
18:10:07 <int-e> nice scifi book cover
18:10:30 <int-e> just add a few flying cars
18:10:38 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77410&oldid=77409 * Zero * (+189)
18:10:42 <fizzie> Reminds me of Beneath A Steel Sky for some reason.
18:11:12 <fizzie> (I don't even think it has any scene quite like that.)
18:13:23 <kmc> my friend texted me this morning "Is there life on Mars?"
18:13:26 <int-e> oh... Joey.
18:19:09 <kmc> this is why I'm learning to grow mushrooms.
18:19:12 <kmc> they don't require sunlight
18:19:14 <kmc> not much, anyway
18:19:41 <int-e> fizzie: well, there's this in the intro: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bass1.png
18:20:49 <int-e> somehow, I don't remember all that much of this game
18:22:22 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I subconsciously remembered that or something.
18:24:05 <fizzie> I sort of remember it had that thing where lower-class people live on the lower levels of the city, and you needed to work your way up (via puzzles, naturally).
18:24:36 <int-e> ah yes.
18:24:56 <int-e> but most of it takes place indoors in steel blue decor
18:25:57 <fizzie> Oh, they've got a sequel out, like, just recently? Didn't know that at all.
18:28:33 <int-e> Hmm, could be interesting.
18:31:08 <int-e> In a couple of years, I guess.
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19:20:45 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77411&oldid=77410 * Zero * (-1)
19:47:13 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77412&oldid=77411 * Zero * (+1)
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20:15:29 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77413&oldid=77412 * Zero * (+361)
20:18:48 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77414&oldid=77413 * Zero * (+35)
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21:49:48 <zzo38> Next in GURPS game, we have to stop some kind of operation in a black tower; apparently with enough power, the tower will "activate". One of my ideas was to damage the tower itself to create structural weaknesses, but what do you think is the best way to try to do that?
22:07:31 <kmc> depends on what the tower is made from
22:08:32 <zzo38> Yes, I thought that too, and unfortunately I don't know, but I know that it is black.
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23:48:16 <int-e> Oh, "platform security" = "vendor lock-in"? Nobody could foresee that... https://www.servethehome.com/amd-psb-vendor-locks-epyc-cpus-for-enhanced-security-at-a-cost/
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2020-09-10
00:02:48 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
00:14:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, so which side are you on? are you trying to activate the tower more easily, or avoid the owner of the tower activiating it against you?
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00:52:54 <zzo38> b_jonas: Trying to prevent them from activating it, possibly by damaging it instead.
00:59:21 <zzo38> (I don't know what is the effect of activating the tower, but I do not want to risk it.)
01:01:07 <zzo38> Also, the lord of this tower seems to be able to react to things faster than is possible, almost like he can predict them before it happens; e.g. if someone shoots a crossbow at him from behind, he will move out of the way just in time.
01:09:49 <b_jonas> hmm. so divination magic or, worse, Time Stop.
01:10:07 <b_jonas> or some even more powerful time travel magic
01:10:13 <b_jonas> that doesn't sound good
01:13:45 <b_jonas> if you find out that it is time travel, you might want to try to tell the Lord that every time he travels time to save someone, he dooms someone in the alternate universe he time traveled away from, as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkBS4O3yvY or https://qntm.org/imperfect
01:52:54 <zzo38> I am not even sure that it is a spell (although it does seem to be a magic power, or maybe psychic; I doubt it is a scientific power). I would guess (although have not actually seen it yet, and just heard what has been reported), they could predict anything one second ahead of time, which is enough time to dodge any attack; explosions can only partally be dodged.
01:56:14 <zzo38> GURPS does have rules for traveling to alternate universes/timelines, both with technology and with spells and psychic powers.
01:57:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: ooh! in that case you need the swerving stunner, a spell whose projectile that can change direction in the air once, and is disguised as an ordinary stunning spell, specifically used against opponents with lightning fast reflexes who normally dodge all attacks, since they have to commit to the dodge like a football goalie. (it's a plot point in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality)
02:01:09 <zzo38> O, good point. (I don't know so much about football though, and neither of my characters, nor as far as I know anyone else in our party, has a Sports (Football) skill.)
02:09:49 <zzo38> I did have some other ideas too, though, such as tricking them into dodging so the attack hits something behind them on purpose, tricking them into dodging into some kind of trap, etc.
02:10:11 <b_jonas> somehow I think of
02:10:15 <b_jonas> `card-by-name trap runner
02:10:17 <HackEso> Trap Runner \ 2WW \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/3 \ {T}: Target unblocked attacking creature becomes blocked. Activate this ability only during combat after blockers are declared. (This ability works on creatures that can't be blocked.) \ MM-U
02:11:09 <b_jonas> you said "next in GURPS game", does that confrontation has to happen in a few in-game days? because it might be hard to track down an obscure spell like that in that time.
02:12:18 <zzo38> Probably it does have to happen in a few in-game days (or maybe even in less than 24 hours); it certainly has to happen before we go back to England (or anywhere else in Europe).
02:12:50 <zzo38> However, there may be solutions not involving magic, and I may be able to use a magic scroll (each of which is usable only once).
02:20:35 <zzo38> These scrolls include: the ability to transform into an elemental creature (quadruped) for a minimum of 1 hour and a maximum of 12 hours; a precognition that is usable only once; an illusionary sound for up to three minutes; the ability to speak to plants for five minutes; an insubstantial projection for up to 10 hours; and the ability to summon up to three small items (which either you could reasonably own, or is inexpensive and widely
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02:29:39 <kmc> can you also speak with fungi?
02:29:51 <zzo38> O, actually there are a few more: to mess up someone's magic powers for three minutes (the target must be touched); the ability to create nearly any item with a mass up to five pounds and lasting ten minutes; a wall lasting for ten seconds, created up to ten yards away; and two scrolls which themself can be used as melee weapons: one knocks back the target several yards if it hits; one causes significant damage with incendiary fragmenta
02:30:31 <zzo38> kmc: I do not think so; fungi are not plants, but a separate classification.
02:31:26 <kmc> that's true
02:31:42 <kmc> a fungus could destroy a wood tower very well, although not quickly, but if it were a magic fungus it might be quick
02:32:21 <fizzie> kmc: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6227805/ "We propose that fungi Basidiomycetes can be used as computing devices: --"
02:33:05 <kmc> I think the ability to talk to fungi would be a good magical power, since they can cover a large area underground, and could probably tell you useful things like the presence/absence of certain chemicals or creatures
02:33:58 <zzo38> Somehow, GURPS doesn't have a "Speak With Fungi" power. But, I think you are right it can be a useful power to have.
02:34:27 <kmc> fizzie: that is neat
02:34:52 <fizzie> kmc: The "Application domains" section is almost what you just said. :)
02:35:04 <fizzie> (Ran into that paper when trying to look up the Fungal Computers Inc. "Computers that grow on you" slogan, which I've got permanently bouncing around inside my head.)
02:35:19 <kmc> :D
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06:15:00 <zzo38> One idea is to make them some sort of zugzwang or halbzugzwang, rather than by using magic powers.
06:17:06 <zzo38> (Or to do that using magic powers.)
06:25:46 <shachaf> Or use sorcery instead of magic, or perhaps witchcraft.
06:29:19 <int-e> which craft?
06:34:56 <shachaf> The craft with the power.
06:45:42 <zzo38> Depending what you mean by "sorcery"
06:48:51 <shachaf> I mean you have to cast it during a main phase when there's nothing on the stack.
06:51:10 <zzo38> Yes, in Magic: the Gathering (I thought of that too), but the game I was mentioning isn't Magic: the Gathering.
06:52:17 <shachaf> But doesn't sorcery work the same way in the real world?
06:54:38 <zzo38> Real world? I wasn't discussing the real world, though.
06:58:57 <myname> i'm interested, how does sorcery work in the real world?
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07:01:06 <zzo38> Wikipedia just says "Sorcery may refer to: Magic (supernatural) [...] Witchcraft [...] Maleficium (sorcery), a form of evil magic [...] Magic in fiction [...]"
07:02:38 <shachaf> Oh, I must've meant maleficium.
07:03:01 <shachaf> The truth is that I didn't really mean anything. I was just naming synonyms for magic.
07:04:37 <int-e> mmm conjuring up synonyms
07:04:58 <zzo38> Sometimes the term "sorcery" may refer to a specific convention of using magic, in some systems, for example.
07:17:22 <shachaf> For example the convention where you cast it during your main phase when the stack is empty?
07:23:38 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, yes.
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08:37:23 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77415 * Zero * (+1235) Created page with "'''DigitDigitJump''' is a derivative of [[BitBitJump]]. The VM operates on a string which contains digits and space characters. Addresses are expressed in base 10, and space-..."
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08:46:32 <cpressey> Good morning.
08:49:12 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77416&oldid=77415 * Zero * (+153)
08:49:39 <cpressey> I'm writing a compiler in Haskell. Uncharacteristically, I'm willingly using monads in it. However, (a) the only monad I'm using (outside the parser) is Either, and (b) I'm avoiding do-notation as much as I can.
08:50:04 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77417&oldid=77416 * Zero * (+25)
08:50:21 <int-e> odd.
09:07:21 <shachaf> What about (r ->)? I bet you're using that one.
09:08:25 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77418&oldid=77417 * Zero * (+163)
09:08:44 <cpressey> Yeah. I'm also using lists. I'm not using them as monads though.
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09:12:43 <cpressey> Whereas with the Eithers I'm using >=> extensively.
09:31:11 <rain1> msolglu
09:34:03 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77419&oldid=77418 * Zero * (+155)
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10:39:56 <cpressey> splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c))) -- see, isn't that so much nicer than do-notation?
10:40:32 <cpressey> Especially when f is just a type constructor or something. It's all pointfree and stuff.
10:42:02 <fizzie> @pl splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c)))
10:42:02 <lambdabot> splay3 = (. ((. ((. (((return .) .) .)) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=)
10:42:08 <fizzie> Wouldn't that be much more elegant?
10:43:44 <cpressey> Admittedly yes
10:47:08 <cpressey> (For some value of "elegant")
10:54:45 <arseniiv> a while ago, a friend suggested that in a mathematical conlang we had a few ideas about, an empty set should be pronounced [ø]
10:56:20 <arseniiv> (though there were too few ideas to make a proof of concept, unfortunately, but this one idea is eso I think)
10:57:50 <arseniiv> there is one downside as otherwise ø might have been used in much more contexts and this designation constrained it much
11:17:51 <cpressey> I think most mathematical formulae would end up being rather awkward to pronounce no matter what phonology you assign to the symbols
11:41:45 <cpressey> "minus bee, plus or minus square root of, bee squared minus four ay see, all over two ay"
11:44:50 <cpressey> @pl qf a b c = (-1 * b + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
11:44:51 <lambdabot> qf = ap (flip . ((flip . (((/) . negate) .)) .) . liftM2 (.) (+) . ((sqrt .) .) . flip ((.) . (-) . join (*)) . (*) . (4 *)) (2 *)
11:48:35 <rain1> hey
11:50:10 <cpressey> hi rain1
11:50:39 <rain1> I can explain the answer to my question
11:51:09 <rain1> I was interested in "Tot" being harder than "Halt". Definitions: Halt is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts. Tot is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts on all inputs.
11:51:46 <rain1> Using Halting oracles you can construct an infinite sequence of classes of hardness. TMs, TMs + Halt oracle, TMs + Halt1 oracle (they can tell if the level below halts), ...
11:52:10 <rain1> Halt lives on the second level, Tot lives on the 3rd
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11:53:48 <rain1> The thing we need to use to prove this is the arithmetic hierarchy
11:54:08 <rain1> I don't fully get this stuff yet
11:54:15 <rain1> but Sigma_2 and Pi_2 are two parts of the 3rd level
11:54:58 <rain1> they corresponds to sets defined by computable relations phi, like this: x is in the set iff Pi_2 is forall y, exists z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:16 <rain1> and Sigma_2 is sets x is in the set iff Sigma_2 is exists y, forall z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:58 <rain1> Now we can show that O'' is Sigma_2 complete, O''-complement is Pi_2 complete
11:56:22 <rain1> and Tot is Pi_2 complete
11:56:33 <rain1> the proofs of these are quite neat but i wont get into the details
11:56:42 <rain1> O'' is something to do with level 3?
11:57:01 <rain1> So there are some aspects of this I need to clarify but roughly speaking that is how its done
11:57:35 <rain1> I'm not sure how Sigma/Pi relate to decidable/semideciable/co-semidecidable sets
11:58:50 <rain1> also 2 interesting facts I picked up on this journey: there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable ones. There's degrees of undecidability between level0 (TMs) and TMs+Halt
11:58:57 <rain1> they are called "low degrees"
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12:09:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77420&oldid=77419 * Zero * (+257)
12:40:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77421&oldid=77197 * Amakukha * (+280) /* What version of LYaPAS are these symbols from? */ new section
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13:03:58 <cpressey> rain1: That there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable functions seems intuitive to me at least (the "missing parts" are not computable so how would one possibly "fix" them computably)
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13:10:44 <cpressey> The low degrees, I've heard of, but I don't remember anything about them
13:17:29 <cpressey> Vague recollection that the halting problem itself is low. Briefly looking at "Low basis theorem" on Wikipedia suggests that is the case.
13:20:36 <cpressey> And that there are "PA degrees" below the HP but it's unclear to me what they signify exactly.
13:35:05 <rain1> interesting stuffo n wiki
13:37:40 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77422&oldid=77420 * Zero * (-85)
13:39:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77423&oldid=77422 * Zero * (+57)
13:42:31 <b_jonas> cpressey: yes, any turing-complete function should be like that
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14:40:10 <kritixilithos> rain1: what is O'' ?
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14:40:41 <rain1> i will need to go over definitions a bit more
14:40:56 <rain1> but i think it's the set of sets which are turing equivalent to the 2nd halting problem
14:41:49 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: Ő
14:42:39 <kritixilithos> the proof isn't yours? where is it from then?
14:42:45 <b_jonas> as in a replacement for "Ő" when you can't type it for technical reasons back in the 2000s
14:43:59 <kritixilithos> b_jonas: i can't tell if you are being facetious or not
14:46:00 <b_jonas> lI am facetious
15:19:33 <rain1> https://risingentropy.com/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-and-computability/
15:22:44 <rain1> The Busy Beaver numbers are an example of a Δ2 set.
15:24:30 <rain1> In fact, the Busy Beaver numbers are even better than Δ2; they’re Π1, co-recursively enumerable
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15:37:30 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77424&oldid=77423 * Zero * (+6)
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15:44:10 <b_jonas> "a complete inventory of some items is available" hehe
15:48:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77425&oldid=77424 * Zero * (+28)
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16:09:09 <kritixilithos> looks like a cool blog, nice find
16:14:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (+410) /* Brainf**k Translation */ new section
16:39:54 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77427&oldid=77350 * SunnyMoon * (-5) Wait, how?
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17:18:39 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77428&oldid=77427 * SunnyMoon * (-5) There is an infinite stack of inputs!
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19:22:33 <b_jonas> `ftoc 390
19:22:35 <HackEso> 390.00°F = 198.89°C
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20:56:38 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (+5384) Created page
21:08:44 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77430&oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (-3) typo
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21:52:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77431&oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (-11)
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22:09:12 <b_jonas> `card-by-name mana cylix
22:09:13 <HackEso> Mana Cylix \ 1 \ Artifact \ {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ PS-U, CON-C
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23:04:10 <spruit11> Heh.
23:04:25 <spruit11> `card-by-name Teferi
23:04:25 <HackEso> Teferi's Care \ 2W \ Enchantment \ {W}, Sacrifice an enchantment: Destroy target enchantment. \ {3}{U}{U}: Counter target enchantment spell. \ IN-U \ \ Teferi's Curse \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant artifact or creature \ Enchanted permanent has phasing. (It phases in or out before its controller untaps during each of their untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.) \ MI-C \ \ Teferi's Drake \ 2U \ Cre
23:05:02 <spruit11> `card-by-name Shock
23:05:06 <HackEso> Shock \ R \ Instant \ Shock deals 2 damage to any target. \ ST-C, 6E-C, S00-C, 7E-C, ONS-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M12-C, M14-C, AER-C, DDN-C \ \ Shock Troops \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/2 \ Sacrifice Shock Troops: It deals 2 damage to any target. \ MM-C, 8ED-C \ \ Shocker \ 1R \ Creature -- Insect \ 1/1 \ Whenever Shocker deals damage to a player, that player discards all the cards in their hand, then draws that many cards. \ TE-R \
23:05:28 <spruit11> `card-by-name Bolt
23:05:29 <HackEso> Bolt of Keranos \ 1RR \ Sorcery \ Bolt of Keranos deals 3 damage to any target. Scry 1. (Look at the top card of your library. You may put that card on the bottom of your library.) \ BNG-C \ \ Boltwing Marauder \ 3BR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 5/4 \ Flying \ Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ DTK-R
23:05:41 <shachaf> `card-by-name Blightning
23:05:42 <HackEso> Blightning \ 1BR \ Sorcery \ Blightning deals 3 damage to target player or planeswalker. That player or that planeswalker's controller discards two cards. \ ALA-C, A25-U, DDK-C
23:05:48 <spruit11> `card-by-name Lightning Bolt
23:05:49 <HackEso> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, A25-U, MED-C, PD2-C
23:07:29 <spruit11> Reading up on cmake. Unhappy. Did towers of Hanoi instead. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/hanoi.eg
23:07:40 <spruit11> I'll get it right, somehow.
23:08:34 <shachaf> Is cmake good? Every time I need to use it it seems pretty unpleasant.
23:09:00 <spruit11> I have no clue. I know I want weird things from it so, no idea.
23:09:26 <spruit11> But people don't seem to like my makefile solution, and I was hoping for something portable.
23:14:18 <shachaf> How portable?
23:15:09 <b_jonas> spruit11: now you have two problems
23:15:12 <spruit11> Linuxes and maybe MacOs.
23:16:19 <spruit11> FreeBSD too, I guess.
23:16:28 <spruit11> Or uh BSDs.
23:18:45 <shachaf> Not Windows?
23:19:12 <shachaf> That seems relatively easy because all those systems are nearly the same.
23:19:19 <shachaf> You can use a shell script.
23:19:25 <spruit11> Nah. Not yet, anyway. If I magically somehow attract some users maybe.
23:19:41 <spruit11> I use make and two shell scripts at the moment.
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23:51:54 <zzo38> What I do is including the shell scripts for compiling at the top of each C code file.
23:58:44 <spruit11> That is the one way to go!
2020-09-11
00:07:16 <shachaf> But how do you run the code?
00:07:34 <shachaf> Including shell scripts at the top seems very Unix-centric.
00:07:39 <shachaf> I want my programs to be cross-platform.
00:08:34 <zzo38> Well, you could still compile it without running the shell script at top too I suppose, just using whatever compiler it is; or you can use WSL
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00:13:14 <shachaf> How do you write a shell script at the top?
00:13:22 <shachaf> I guess you can start a C program with #if 0
00:13:28 <shachaf> But you can't have a #! line.
00:13:52 <zzo38> Yes, although you can still run it by writing "bash main.c" or whatever
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01:05:56 <tux_> woot
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03:43:39 <zzo38> Here is a implementation of Unnecessary in PostScript: ARGUMENTS 0{get(r)file}stopped{[}if] Like the one I wrote in JavaScript, the error message is strange.
03:45:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77432&oldid=57536 * Zzo38 * (+363) Implementation in PostScript (which is also a bit strange)
03:46:02 <zzo38> Hopefully, both of these implementations, you could see how it is working.
03:48:06 <zzo38> Do you like this?
04:00:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77433&oldid=77432 * Zzo38 * (+59)
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04:12:27 <zzo38> Is there a short way to write googol with roman numbers?
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04:39:22 <Arcorann_> An X with 33 bars over it might work
04:44:48 <Arcorann_> The other option is something like CCC...CCC|ↃↃↃ...ↃↃↃ (see also Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Large_numbers)
04:45:05 <Arcorann_> where there are 98 Cs and backwards Cs
04:49:00 <zzo38> How many bars was the largest number of bars the Romans used?
04:51:49 <Arcorann_> I don't know of any historical cases where more than one was used
04:54:52 <zzo38> I think in modern use, most things with roman numbers are not going to use any bars, nor any fractions, although I have occasionally used fractions
04:59:53 <Arcorann_> (That pipe should be an I by the way)
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05:48:17 <zzo38> I think the rules for Cryptography skill in GURPS isn't very good. And for other reasons, there are also problems with Fortune-Telling skill. And actually, also Brawling skill; you might be better or worse at bites, horns, claws, etc, but the skill level for them is not distinguished (although the attacks themself are distinguished).
06:02:34 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77434&oldid=77425 * Zero * (-24)
06:31:56 <int-e> Woah, there's a World Standards Day?
06:32:45 <int-e> Which is on October 14th every year. Boring so far... but the reason I'm reading about this now is this: 'The U.S. Celebration of World Standards Day (WSD), an event intended to raise awareness of the importance of global standardization to the world economy and to promote its role in helping meet the needs of business, industry, government, and consumers worldwide, will be held on Thursday,...
06:32:51 <int-e> ...October 22.'
06:40:39 <Arcorann_> Wait, where is this?
06:41:18 <int-e> https://www.ansi.org/news_publications/news_story?menuid=7&articleid=fa8379c4-3024-4970-b782-9446aadaf805
06:41:56 <int-e> . o O ( ANSI adaptation of international standards always takes a while. )
07:01:45 <Arcorann_> According to Wikipedia they've been doing this since 2014
07:04:47 <Arcorann_> https://www.ansi.org/meetings_events/WSWEEK/WSW2020/World-Standards-Day <-- by the way, this year's was cancelled
07:11:10 <int-e> October 28th!
07:11:26 <int-e> Sorry, I somehow find this funny.
07:12:07 <int-e> (The datas. The cancellation is just good practice right now.)
07:12:38 <int-e> Though many events go virtual instead.
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10:36:57 <cpressey> The PA degrees are interesting. The WP article doesn't do a good job defining what a "completion of PA" is, but I take it that a completion of PA is not (necessarily) Turing-complete. Which raises the interesting question of what computability class (or classes) they do represent.
10:37:43 <cpressey> rain1: ^
10:40:26 <rain1> ok!
10:40:31 <rain1> PA??
10:40:38 <cpressey> "A completion of Peano arithmetic is a set of formulas in the language of Peano arithmetic, such that the set is consistent in first-order logic and such that, for each formula, either that formula or its negation is included in the set."
10:40:39 <rain1> peano arithmetic?
10:40:41 <rain1> hm
10:40:54 <rain1> wow
10:41:04 <cpressey> That sentence sounds like a tautology to me -- they must mean something by "for each formula" that I don't get
10:41:24 <rain1> i suppose we have to assign a truth value to everything
10:41:30 <rain1> as opposed to leaving undecidable sentences
10:46:42 <rain1> so we can actually write a real computer program that lists out the truth values of PA sentences in an order such that everything is mentioned eventually?
10:53:59 <cpressey> What truth value would you expect it to eventually print out for the PA sentence that says "This sentence is false"?
10:55:07 <rain1> i am not sure
10:55:15 <rain1> is it impossible to assign it a truth value?
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11:08:43 <cpressey> I think so.
11:10:18 <cpressey> The PA degree article does seem to say that the PA degrees are uncomputable, and it doesn't actually refer to any proof that there is a PA degree strictly lower than the HP - it only says "There are also PA degrees that are not above 0‘".
11:10:41 <cpressey> So maybe 0' is the lowest PA degree, it doesn't seem to rule that out.
11:12:34 <cpressey> A set that is uncomputable but "not as uncomputable as the halting problem" is very, very hard to imagine.
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11:13:36 <rain1> yes it is
11:14:16 <rain1> especially with rices theorem??
11:14:20 <rain1> doesn't rices theorem rule that out
11:32:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HerzogDietrich * New user account
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12:08:11 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77435&oldid=77434 * Zero * (-30)
12:20:19 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77436&oldid=73071 * UltimateProGrammer * (+134) Outputs letter
12:28:21 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77437&oldid=77436 * UltimateProGrammer * (+11)
12:32:44 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77438&oldid=77437 * UltimateProGrammer * (+46) Get FizzBuzz to work
12:40:33 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77439&oldid=77435 * Zero * (+129) Undo revision 77435 by [[Special:Contributions/Zero|Zero]] ([[User talk:Zero|talk]])
12:45:57 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77440&oldid=77438 * UltimateProGrammer * (+768) Say Fizz instead of F and the same with buzz
12:46:43 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77441&oldid=77439 * Zero * (+91)
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12:51:45 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77442&oldid=77441 * Zero * (+229)
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14:50:44 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77443&oldid=77442 * Zero * (-30)
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14:55:08 <kritixilithos> bwah what a cliff-hanger (https://risingentropy.com/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-and-computability/)
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16:24:57 <esowiki> [[Snake Script]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77444 * BlueOkiris * (+4065) Created page with "= Snake Script = Snake Script is a language created by Dylan Turner aka ~~~~ == Description == The goal was to make a language that fits nicely in a traditional terminal. I..."
16:25:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77445&oldid=77377 * BlueOkiris * (+19) /* S */
16:32:36 <rain1> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/130030/incomputable-sets-of-low-degree-vs-rices-theorem/130035#130035
16:32:40 <rain1> I asked about low degree
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18:23:29 <shachaf> `olist 1214
18:23:30 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1214.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:23:58 <Sgeo> I keep forgetting about `olist even when I'm on IRC and see the update before it's been done
18:31:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77446&oldid=77431 * Tetrapyronia * (-1)
20:07:04 <zzo38> I started to implement a "safe interactive mode" in TeXnicard, for use when you are making it available as a remote service (such as with SSH), and are not using other mechanisms to improve security (e.g. separate user accounts, sandboxing, etc).
20:37:42 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77447&oldid=77428 * SunnyMoon * (+81) Stack of STRINGS
20:38:14 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77448&oldid=77447 * SunnyMoon * (+1) uh oh
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2020-09-12
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02:10:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baguette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77449&oldid=77376 * Emerald * (+105) /* SCREAMCODE */ new section
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04:23:24 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77450&oldid=77448 * TwilightSparkle * (-3) Strings are neccessarily lists, but not vice versa/
04:45:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77451&oldid=77433 * TwilightSparkle * (+372)
04:55:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77452&oldid=65082 * TwilightSparkle * (+427)
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05:03:54 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77453&oldid=77450 * TwilightSparkle * (-128) Not really.
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07:57:07 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77454&oldid=77395 * Abyxlrz * (+16)
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08:39:57 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77455&oldid=77454 * Abyxlrz * (+232)
09:04:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EverythingEli * New user account
09:12:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77456&oldid=77370 * EverythingEli * (+175) Add sig
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09:31:23 <esowiki> [[Dots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77457 * EverythingEli * (+394) Add this page
10:00:23 <esowiki> [[Dots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77458&oldid=77457 * EverythingEli * (+80)
10:05:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77459&oldid=76704 * EverythingEli * (-60395) bye bye
10:10:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77460&oldid=77459 * EverythingEli * (+188) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10:10:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77461&oldid=77460 * EverythingEli * (-188) Undo revision 77460 by [[Special:Contributions/EverythingEli|EverythingEli]] ([[User talk:EverythingEli|talk]])
10:13:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77462&oldid=77461 * EverythingEli * (+131)
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13:27:45 <spruit11> Heh. I think I managed to move succesfully from makefiles to cmake.
13:27:52 <spruit11> Ah well.
13:45:21 <rain1> from bad to worse
13:46:02 <int-e> At least it's not scons.
13:47:12 <int-e> I also happen to like gmake.
13:47:52 <rain1> https://github.com/rain-1/makes i made a thing once
13:48:07 <int-e> But I also don't care much for portability.
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13:52:21 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder if the tup build system is still going. Had a phase where I used it, few years back.
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13:53:04 <rain1> tup is cool
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14:30:46 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the speed of light in meters per second these days?
14:30:46 <fungot> b_jonas: the new fnord the fourth of which is the use to which the documents, that that future relationship, that is, to the report, the government have made.
14:31:39 <fizzie> fungot: You mean the government has (re)defined the speed of light?
14:31:40 <fungot> fizzie: my hon. and learned friend the minister for the way the hon. and learned friend the minister for that. i will be more about understanding the need, the recognised age of adulthood, the continuity of the law,
14:32:32 <fizzie> I think someone's switched my hon. and learned friend fungot to the ukparl corpus again.
14:32:33 <fungot> fizzie: we have to be very good and useful next step, in the safe hands, the best tools. the northern fnord. and there is the prospect of the fnord alliance, the british property federation, not councils, more rights, better pay, and have a new relationship, the new system, the accompanying the bill,
14:47:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77463&oldid=77452 * Zero * (+32)
14:50:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe the government redefined it from 186e3 miles per second to 300e6 meters per second
15:04:48 <Arcorann> Based on my logs, that was shachaf about three days ago
15:21:36 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77464 * Emerald * (+92) Created page with "This will be where i brainstorm esolangs, feel free to add criticism in the discussion page."
15:22:55 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77465&oldid=75516 * Emerald * (+26) /* Other Pages of mine */
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15:37:00 <spruit11> Yay. cmake puts .so file where ld cannot find it.
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15:57:43 <spruit11> egelbot: [ X -> format "{}" X ] "cmake.." #took a week, I guess
15:57:43 <egelbot> "cmake.."
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16:49:09 <shachaf> What was me?
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17:01:41 <arseniiv> I think if a conlang has seximal as its number system, then if there’s a sacred language associated with it, it can intentionally use septimal
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18:24:08 <fizzie> Ugh. Kind of regretting the choice of living the life of OpenWRT master branch on my (Linksys WRT32X) router.
18:24:17 <fizzie> The hardware's such that it's got internally a 7-port Ethernet switch; ports 0-4 are the 4 LAN + 1 WAN port (only difference in labeling), and ports 5-6 are wired to the SoC using its two gigabit Ethernet interfaces.
18:24:28 <fizzie> OpenWRT used to have a setup where the switch is controlled as a separate device (with swconfig), using VLANs to have ports 0-3+5 in one network (LAN) and 4+6 in another (WAN), but I tweaked it further to extract port 3 to a separate VLAN (and turned on tagging on port 5 to differentiate).
18:24:45 <fizzie> But now they've gone ahead and migrated the setup to the new Linux DSA ("distributed switch architecture") thing, which abstracts away all the switch configuration, and makes all the switch ports just appear directly as network interfaces to the kernel.
18:25:08 <fizzie> It's a lot simpler for sure, but the way I've got it set up, I bake the configuration directly into the firmware image, instead of just letting OpenWRT to do its default config and then customizing that on the Flash overlay filesystem. I feel like I have approximately 3% chance of getting it sufficiently right the first time that I can actually still SSH in to the silly thing. And of course it doesn't
18:25:14 <fizzie> have an exposed serial port. (Though it's actually got one that's *reasonably* easy to hook into, but that'd still involve fiddling the case open.)
18:52:30 <kmc> eep
18:52:31 <kmc> good luck!
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19:32:38 <b_jonas> I just lost the game
20:05:03 <spruit11> I broke everything.
20:05:22 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77466&oldid=77464 * Emerald * (+1841)
20:30:50 <fizzie> fungot: Still up?
20:31:21 <fungot> fizzie: was the hon. member of this house, is the constituency. they have been a huge public support, and given the governments comments. all children should have an opportunity,
20:31:30 <fizzie> ...huh, that was slow.
20:33:15 <fizzie> In any case. Just to provide some closure, the upgrade *almost* worked, except something in the OpenWRT build resulted in the nft_chain_nat.ko module not getting bundled into the OpenWRT packages. Managed to find it in the build directory, copy it over, and insmod it manually. But I need to figure out how to fix that permanently.
20:41:19 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77467&oldid=77347 * SunnyMoon * (+34) From now on I will display the current language I am interested in!
20:59:20 <fizzie> TIL: OpenStreetMap has a `royal_cypher` key for the initials/symbol that's stamped on UK post boxes and shows under which monarch's reign the box was set up.
20:59:23 <fizzie> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:royal%20cypher?uselang=en-GB
21:05:50 <imode> so everything is on fire.
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10:41:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77468&oldid=77445 * SunnyMoon * (+11) Where were you, 1L_a?
10:41:35 <rain1> hi
10:49:31 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77469&oldid=36071 * SunnyMoon * (+40) Headings make it easier.
10:50:35 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77470&oldid=77469 * SunnyMoon * (-75) 1L_a has no control flow.
10:51:35 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77471&oldid=77470 * SunnyMoon * (-28) If I am wrong, please revert my edits.
10:54:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:1L a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77472 * SunnyMoon * (+172) Citation needed
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11:21:51 <shachaf> @metar koak
11:21:52 <lambdabot> KOAK 131053Z 35005KT 1 1/2SM BR FU BKN006 15/13 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01500128 $
11:21:56 <shachaf> @metar KSEA
11:21:56 <lambdabot> KSEA 131053Z 12003KT 3/4SM FU BR OVC031 12/11 A2996 RMK AO2 SLPNO FU OVC031 T01170106
11:22:04 <shachaf> FU everywhere
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12:19:49 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
12:19:50 <lambdabot> EGLL 131150Z AUTO 25012KT 9999 NCD 23/12 Q1024 NOSIG
12:43:01 <b_jonas> `datei
12:43:03 <HackEso> 2020-09-13 12:43:02.650 +0000 UTC September 13 Sunday 2020-W37-7
12:43:06 <b_jonas> no
12:43:12 <b_jonas> ``` date +%s
12:43:13 <HackEso> 1600000993
12:55:33 <fizzie> Ooh, missed that. Oh well, it's the powers of 2 that are the real moments to celebrate.
12:55:36 <fizzie> `` printf "%x" $(date +%s)
12:55:37 <HackEso> 5f5e16c9
12:56:54 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(python -c 'print(0x60000000)')
12:56:56 <HackEso> Thu Jan 14 08:25:36 UTC 2021
12:57:02 <fizzie> Something to look forward to.
12:57:25 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(python -c 'print(0x50000000)')
12:57:26 <HackEso> Fri Jul 13 11:01:20 UTC 2012
12:57:50 <fizzie> s/powers of 2/multiples of large &/
13:03:36 <int-e> > (3*2^29 - 1600000000)/86400
13:03:38 <lambdabot> 122.83259259259259
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13:08:57 <fizzie> `` s=$(date +%s); for p in $(seq 10 40); do date --date=@$(((s&~(1<<p-1))+(1<<p))); done | paste
13:08:59 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.31981
13:10:07 <fizzie> Hmm, I think I messed that up somewhere.
13:10:28 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77473&oldid=77231 * Orisphera * (+44) /* The language */
13:11:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: well you can find occasions to celebrate any time
13:12:19 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77474&oldid=77473 * Orisphera * (+93) /* Case-sensitivity */
13:12:22 <fizzie> Oh, precedence. 1<<p-1 == (1<<p)-1, not 1<<(p-1).
13:12:28 <fizzie> `` s=$(date +%s); for p in $(seq 10 40); do date --date=@$(((s&~((1<<p)-1))+(1<<p))); done | uniq | paste
13:12:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.11013
13:12:49 <fizzie> Judging from the fact that y2k38 shows up, that's probably right.
13:13:48 <fizzie> (Er, I mean, I *wanted* 1<<p-1 to be (1<<p)-1, not 1<<(p-1).)
13:16:10 <int-e> `` dc <<<2o1600000000p
13:16:11 <HackEso> 1011111010111100001000000000000
13:16:38 <int-e> (that long run of 1s following the 10 at the start is also significant)
13:32:53 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77475&oldid=77331 * Orisphera * (+180) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
13:35:25 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77476&oldid=77471 * TwilightSparkle * (+75) Undo revision 77470 by [[Special:Contributions/SunnyMoon|SunnyMoon]] ([[User talk:SunnyMoon|talk]]) How? 1L_a do have control flow. Did you even read the specs?
13:39:29 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77477&oldid=77476 * SunnyMoon * (-75) IF statements. They are essential for turing machines.
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14:11:57 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77478&oldid=77477 * SunnyMoon * (+122) Commenting 101
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15:42:43 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77479&oldid=77330 * Bananaapple * (+855) Updated the language definition to remove some ambiguity. "Executing a popped \X will result in strangeness." is not true, since its behaviour can be both defined and implemented rather easily, and it was never a part of the original definition. I changed the definition of label
15:43:41 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77480&oldid=77479 * Bananaapple * (+5) formatting
15:44:58 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77481&oldid=77480 * Bananaapple * (+79) typo and one more ambiguity down
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18:06:31 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77482&oldid=77481 * Bananaapple * (-4) the XX is not a valid operation to do on the command stack. Why was 'x' there in the first place then?
18:23:47 <spruit11> `` date +%s
18:23:48 <HackEso> 1600021427
18:23:55 <spruit11> Missed the event.
18:24:10 <kmc> there was an event?
18:24:18 <kmc> is it the sort of event where you remain indoors?
18:24:46 <b_jonas> kmc: unix epoch time 1_600_000_000
18:24:54 <kmc> ah
18:28:53 <kmc> it's weird that i've been alive for almost 2/3 of the unix epoch
18:29:00 <kmc> seems impossible somehow
18:41:18 <spruit11> We are closer to Ceasar than Ceasar to the construction of the pyramids. Weird too.
18:45:44 <imode> spruit11: don't feel bad, we have the 17 event in a couple years.
19:02:17 <kmc> spruit11: yeah
19:39:07 <int-e> 0x60000000 is next January.
19:40:07 <fizzie> (And after that, there's just one high nybble flip left before the Big One.)
19:47:21 <fizzie> Our channel turned 2^29 seconds old late last year, and I think nobody celebrated that either.
19:47:26 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(( $(date --date='2002-12-09T06:00:00Z' +%s) + 2**29 ))
19:47:27 <HackEso> Sat Dec 14 00:48:32 UTC 2019
19:48:40 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(( $(date --date='2002-12-09T06:00:00Z' +%s) + 2**30 ))
19:48:42 <HackEso> Wed Dec 17 19:37:04 UTC 2036
19:49:39 <int-e> impressive
19:51:06 <fizzie> 2^29 seconds is surprisingly close to being exactly 17 years.
19:51:10 <fizzie> > 2**29 / (86400*365.2425)
19:51:13 <lambdabot> 17.012761942281372
19:51:29 <arseniiv> dates huh
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19:53:56 <myname> 10! secons are exactly 6 weeks
19:55:01 <b_jonas> heh
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19:59:50 <Emerald> Hello
20:00:03 <Emerald> can anyone here help me on anything
20:00:12 <myname> no
20:00:17 <Emerald> :(
20:01:19 <Emerald> Anyone can help
20:01:29 <int-e> `? something
20:01:31 <HackEso> Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
20:01:41 <int-e> `? hth
20:01:43 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:01:59 <Emerald> ...
20:02:17 <myname> Emerald: it helps if you ask actual questions
20:02:53 <Emerald> On my phone it won’t let me go to the editing preferences
20:03:14 <myname> okay, i would ask about that in an android or ios channel respectively
20:03:24 <Emerald> Where is that?
20:03:30 <myname> i am not google
20:03:43 <Emerald> me too
20:05:29 <Emerald> Bruh
20:06:04 <myname> i refuse to help people that don't do the bare minimum effort
20:06:29 <Emerald> Oh I tried fixing the problem
20:06:35 <Emerald> tried a link
20:06:35 <int-e> Also, if you think your phone possessed, you have the wrong kind of esoteric channel.
20:06:49 <spruit11> Or does he?
20:06:57 <fizzie> Would these be the wiki's "editing" preferences page?
20:07:23 <Emerald> I can go to preference main page just fine
20:07:38 <Emerald> but my phone ain’t letting me go to other preferences
20:07:59 <fizzie> (Works for me on Android Chrome is all I can say about that. Though not well.)
20:08:37 <Emerald> Unfortunately, IOS isn’t android....
20:09:26 <Emerald> Guess I’m fricked
20:10:06 <fizzie> MediaWiki isn't particularly mobile-friendly out of the box. But odd if it doesn't work at all.
20:10:23 <Emerald> It will work on my iPad
20:10:37 <int-e> fizzie: your mindreading skills are impressive
20:10:46 <Emerald> But my main editing device is my phone
20:10:55 <Emerald> right now
20:11:17 <fizzie> No "request desktop site" or equivalent in Safari? That might work (or not).
20:11:52 <Emerald> I’ve tried that
20:12:03 <Emerald> ive tried using the link for the page
20:14:18 <Emerald> Anymore suggestions?
20:15:40 <fizzie> You can try some of the other skins (which you can override on a page basis by adding ?useskin=modern and such), though I imagine they don't really have functional differences.
20:15:58 <Emerald> Ima try
20:17:06 <Emerald> Nope
20:17:59 <fizzie> Or add ?printable=yes, which gives a really plain view... but it still has script-driven tabs, which is probably the problem. Don't really have any likely suggestions at this point.
20:18:56 <Emerald> Well I guess I will give up since that didn’t work
20:21:30 <fizzie> Eventually we'll upgrade the MediaWiki version again, which might help. Or not.
20:21:50 <Emerald> Ok
20:24:06 <int-e> Emerald: fwiw, if you'd mentioned the wiki, you'd probably have gotten a less snarky reception
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23:34:44 <zzo38> Does any TV set have a variant pillarbox mode to extend the picture on both sides by display stuff that would ordinarily be cut off (such as hblank)?
23:51:26 <shachaf> Do you like Edward Nelson's Internal Set Theory?
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04:18:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: capture cards probaby have that, but as we no longer even have analog TV broadcast here anymore, you could only do that for video games
04:55:02 <kmc> maybe you can find an analog TV transmission on the amateur bands :)
04:55:10 <kmc> or transmit one yourself if you want
04:58:06 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
04:58:07 <lambdabot> CYVR 140400Z 30002KT 1 1/2SM FU SCT018 VV042 13/12 A2990 RMK ST4FU4 SLP127
04:59:55 <kmc> you can receive amateur TV on the 70cm band on a regular analog TV / capture card by putting it into "cable TV" mode
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05:01:36 <zzo38> kmc: Do I need some kind of antenna to receive it? What channel number would be used? Can it be received on the VCR?
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05:02:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, and I don't like that we don't have the analog TV broadcast (I can receive one analog channel though, which seems to be some kind of signal analyzer), so use the cable box, but it goes through the VCR, and then to the TV.
05:03:29 <kmc> I've never done it, but apparently cable channels 57-60 http://www.hamtv.com/
05:04:48 <kmc> and yes, you'd need an antenna. regular UHF TV antenna would probably work ok
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05:06:45 <zzo38> I thought though they are cable numbers and not UHF numbers
05:07:04 <kmc> or you could make a dipole for that particular band out of a scrap TV coax along the lines of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tafy51yUzQo&ab_channel=KevinLoughin
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05:09:51 <kmc> zzo38: there are UHF broadcast channels just above the 70 cm amateur band, so a broadcast TV antenna will probably receive those amateur frequencies okay. and the tuner can tune those frequencies in "cable TV" mode
05:16:41 <zzo38> I don't even know if there are any available in my area, and I do not have a antenna, anyways.
05:17:15 <zzo38> I don't like so much the cable box; you have to use their software, which has bugs, and is difficult to use with other stuff
05:18:12 <kmc> that's too bad
05:23:50 <zzo38> I have seen open source TV software, but I don't know if it can receive digital cable TV, and their remote controls don't have numbers.
05:24:45 <zzo38> The model of cable box I have has composite video out, component video out, S video out, analog and digital audio out, HDMI, IEEE 1394, USB, eSATA, and EXT IR IN.
05:27:00 <zzo38> I don't know what functions are available with these things, such as I don't know if HDMI-CEC is implemented. I do know that captions are transmitted on the component video out. Is there a way to use these things to implement an external control?
05:28:26 <kmc> I don't know
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06:37:09 <spruit11> What my language obviously needs is the ability to run shell commands!
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07:04:13 <zzo38> spruit11: Yes, and possibly popen().
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07:18:28 <spruit11> Heh. I was looking at the last Python process module and I think that total effort is half my interpreter, in LoC.
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08:22:08 <cpressey> Good morning
08:26:47 <spruit11> Good morning to all too
08:35:45 <int-e> ...just another dreary Monday...
08:39:30 <spruit11> Remember: it isn't mondays you hate but capitalism.
08:39:38 <spruit11> Just saw that on the internet.
09:23:42 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77483&oldid=77482 * Bananaapple * (+223) Removed ambiguity around label definition
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10:12:57 <rain1> morning
10:13:28 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77484&oldid=77478 * SunnyMoon * (+98) Alright, maybe logic can be incorporated. But every if statement has an unwanted side effect.
10:13:55 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77485&oldid=77484 * SunnyMoon * (+1) Oh
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10:56:34 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77486&oldid=77483 * Bananaapple * (-117) Updated my interpreter, so I updated the wiki. Also I don't want to arms race with the other interpreter :)
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11:08:34 <spruit11> Yeet! I am automating my work on Egel in Egel..
11:08:57 <spruit11> Only problem, a two line perl script would do it better and shorter.
11:09:02 <spruit11> But anyway.
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12:01:10 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77487&oldid=77486 * Bananaapple * (+3) license name typo
12:31:21 <b_jonas> spruit11: that means you're writing practical programs in egel and will learn of its deficiencies
12:39:08 <APic> g/ 23
12:39:14 <APic> Fail, sorry
12:55:57 <spruit11> Yah, Knuth, wasn't it.
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13:11:14 <spruit11> Moving to cmake turns out to be a net positive.
13:18:41 <spruit11> b_jonas: Well, to some extent it does what it is supposed to do. Short quick and dirty scripts kind-of work. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/contrib/scripts/egeldoc.eg
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15:54:37 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
15:54:38 <lambdabot> EGLL 141550Z AUTO 11006KT 050V140 9999 NCD 28/10 Q1019 NOSIG
15:54:52 <fizzie> What kind of September weather is this nonsense.
16:10:45 <fizzie> Hm. The letter combination "..fii.." looks somehow particularly ugly when the "fi" part gets ligated.
16:10:49 <spruit11> @metar EHDL
16:10:49 <lambdabot> EHDL 141555Z AUTO 10003KT 030V160 9999 NCD 29/13 Q1022 BLU
16:12:31 <fizzie> It's a BLU sky.
16:16:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: my opinion is still that the "fi" ligature looks ugly in most fonts, I believe that's because font creators put in such a ligature that looks obviously different from a normal "fi" to make it clear that this is a "professional" font that has such ligatures. most fonts wouldn't need such a ligature, or would need one that differes from a normal kerned "fi" only very slightly.
16:18:53 <spruit11> I've been thinking of putting out only PDFs which look like they have 70's monotype/typewriter in them.
16:19:22 <spruit11> Preferably with handwritten symbols and figures.
16:23:36 <int-e> @metar lowi
16:23:36 <lambdabot> LOWI 141550Z 07009KT CAVOK 26/13 Q1024 NOSIG
16:24:06 <int-e> `grwp effi
16:24:08 <HackEso> bogosort:Bogosort is an efficient sorting algorithm for nondeterministic Turing machines. Taneb may have invented it.
16:25:18 <Taneb> Oooh, I didn't know I might have invented htat
16:26:59 <b_jonas> if Taneb invented it, that must be one of those time-traveling inventions that he invented before he was born
16:28:38 <Taneb> When was bogosort designed?
16:28:44 <b_jonas> I don't know
16:29:07 <b_jonas> 1986 the latest
16:29:18 <Taneb> Ah, I was definitely not alive then
16:29:26 <Taneb> At least so far
16:29:39 <b_jonas> it may be one of those folklore things that are hard to trace to their origin
16:30:19 <Taneb> It may indeed have been invented by a time travelling Taneb
16:31:31 <fizzie> TTTP is short for the Time-Travelling Taneb Problem.
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17:32:10 <arseniiv> [21:19] <spruit11> Preferably with handwritten symbols and figures. => that’s inhumane!
17:33:20 <arseniiv> OTOH I like handwritten figures, but the combination of typewriter and handwriting is awfully unreadable. Mainly due to typewriter typeface but
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17:41:40 <arseniiv> I saw in Hamming’s book that the bell shape of IQ distribution is due to the way they normalize the experimental data in its definition. Damn
17:42:21 <arseniiv> (in “Art of Doing Science and Engineering”)
17:43:57 <arseniiv> I saw a couple of days ago a video about IQ being actually nice, correct and okay and that there is a ton of legit articles about it. Now I don’t know what to think
17:47:08 <arseniiv> also mysteriously that video hadn’t anything said on the abundance of strange tests pretending to measure IQ but not being such. I’d think usually people share links to those as it has been difficult to me to find a neutral (geography-agnostic etc.) one. If I don’t know what longitudes a couple of not so major cities have, I don’t have lower generall intelligence, but I saw a question with this intended solution in one of the fake tests
18:44:39 <imode> https://hastebin.com/afitakoroc.txt
18:46:04 <imode> someone explain to me how I get multi-millisecond timings for something that takes drastically less cycles.
18:48:07 <imode> maybe I'm misjudging actual work being done vs. interpreter spinup/spindown.
19:07:53 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
19:07:53 <lambdabot> CYVR 141900Z 27005KT 1SM R26R/4500FT/N R26L/5000FT/N FU BR BKN002 BKN014 OVC028 16/14 A2997 RMK FU3SF2ST2SC1 SLP150 DENSITY ALT 100FT
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19:36:14 <zzo38> spruit11: Which specific fonts do you mean? If you are using only a single fixpitch font, then, other than diagrams, plain text will do OK (and you can add form feeds between pages if you want to do).
19:39:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you think the "fi" ligature is good in some fonts? (I see many fonts have bad kerning, often either too much or not enough, and the font used for web pages in Firefox on my computer has too much kerning I think, how can I adjust that?
19:46:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: in some Times-like fonts it's good, yes
19:46:42 <b_jonas> in CMR too
19:50:17 <spruit11> zzo38: There are some nice retro fonts for latex which I downloaded once. They emulate old typewriters.
19:51:19 <spruit11> https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/344214/use-latex-to-simulate-old-typewriter-written-texts/344272
19:51:41 <b_jonas> yay, I bought my new home computer! all the hardware will hopefully arrive this week, and then I can assemble and try it, but since there are so many parts and ways it can fail, it's unlikely that everything will actually work out within the week.
19:51:54 <b_jonas> and this doesn't count software configuration, which will take longer for me
19:53:01 <b_jonas> I think this is the most money that I have ever spent within any single day, though not by very far
20:01:18 <spruit11> In the old days even PhD students would give their texts to an administrative who would type out/typeset it and fill in the math by hand. Also, fixed bugs in the text. I like that look.
20:09:55 <zzo38> arseniiv: I think that IQ is not the same as intelligence, although it is related. (I would define IQ as the score you would earn on a ideal IQ test, where 100 is average. Intelligence cannot properly be represented by a single number anyways, I think.)
20:26:53 <arseniiv> also I found out I suck at mental arithmetic with English-spelled numbers more than in general
20:27:57 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you do mental arithmetic in more than one language? I thought basically everyone did it only in one language, even bilingual people.
20:29:18 <zzo38> spruit11: As far as I can see, that is just using existing OpenType Computer Modern fonts, but with pdfLuaLaTeX to make the variability. (I would probably have done something different: produce the DVI normally (without any random variability), and then implement the random variability in PostScript code instead.)
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20:48:44 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think I do it in just Russian, yeah. That’s an interesting question, I’ll ask my friends how they think about themselves
20:58:16 <arseniiv> also I think I understand why eight hundred thirty five is worse than 835 at least for me: the latter is more helpful to try making something with in visual operating memory, than the words which need converting and thus pollute the operating memory (which is VERY limited unless we represent something via linking to the longer-term memory, so mnemonics, or in this case, hard practice with non-native numerals, may help)
21:01:06 <shachaf> I didn't know about `perf stat`.
21:01:15 <shachaf> Or maybe I did and I forgot.
21:01:31 <shachaf> I should add some of these things to my `time` program.
21:03:21 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, writing numbers with digits rather than words is better to work with.
21:11:10 <spruit11> zzo38: I'll take anything!
21:12:03 <zzo38> You will take anything?
21:12:51 <arseniiv> that reminds me of a “dozenal transition problem”: if one uses 0123456789AB as base-12 digits, then when transitioning from base 10 to base 12, many literals like 389 will be ambiguous. So for example when transitioning to heximal, it would be practical to invent six, or at least five (leave 0 intact) new digits
21:13:08 <arseniiv> what digits would you propose for whatever reason?
21:13:31 <spruit11> zzo38: Yes!
21:13:49 <spruit11> Just kidding, with regard to the retro typesetting.
21:14:54 <zzo38> arseniiv: You can also make up an entirely new set of digits, or you can use prefixes such as 0x for hexadecimal (like in C) or 16# for hexadecimal (like in PostScript).
21:15:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't like base 12, but if you insist, then I instead suggest base 5*6, with digits 0 1 2 3 4 5 for the unit digit, Z A B C D for the sixes digit, as described in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-09.2335.html
21:15:39 <b_jonas> then every number at least ends in a decimal digit, but every number that has more than one digit will have a digit that is not a decimal digit
21:16:30 <arseniiv> my unthoughtful take on heximal (using old zero): J U Ɯ Ɣ Ƨ. Cons: even has lowercase! j u ɯ ɣ ƨ
21:17:05 <b_jonas> but Ƨ looks too similar to 2 in handwriting
21:18:48 <arseniiv> zzo38: that’s good for formal languages, I agree
21:19:04 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but Ƨ looks too similar to 2 in handwriting => unfortunately
21:20:14 <arseniiv> mixed 5×6 is interesting
21:20:28 <arseniiv> though it seems a bit complex
21:21:23 <zzo38> Yes, but it does make it compatible with decimal numbers
21:21:24 <arseniiv> I thought if one wants to transition to base 6, one may inadvertently end up with base 6×10 or 10×6
21:21:42 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah
21:50:09 <arseniiv> mosquitoes are very annoying. Moreso in the autumn when they should go to sleep, not pay me nightly visits. My poor fingers :(
22:14:28 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
22:14:28 <lambdabot> CYVR 142200Z 30006KT 1SM R26R/4500FT/N R26L/5500FT/N FU BKN002 OVC021 16/14 A2994 RMK FU4SF1SC3 SLP139 DENSITY ALT 200FT
22:46:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77488&oldid=75537 * InfiniteDonuts * (+49)
22:47:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77489&oldid=77488 * InfiniteDonuts * (+14)
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2020-09-15
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00:54:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77490&oldid=76305 * Hakerh400 * (+1030) add interpreter; correct computational class; add two obviously missing output modes
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04:05:16 <imode> think I found a solution to the rewriting performance problem.
04:05:53 <imode> taking inspiration from regular expression parsers, translating rewrite rules to a slim 4-instruction (or less) bytecode and then running that bytecode in a hot loop (or compiling it).
04:13:48 <imode> I think earlier I was hoping to "gun it" with some low-effort method but those don't really cut it anymore.
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05:15:48 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
05:15:48 <lambdabot> CYVR 150500Z 28005KT 1 1/2SM -RA FU OVC065 16/15 A3001 RMK FU4SC4 -RA INTMT SLP164 DENSITY ALT 100FT
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06:08:38 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/primate-checkmate/
06:08:39 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/primate-checkmate/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
06:15:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quelklef * New user account
06:18:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77491&oldid=77456 * Quelklef * (+212) Introduce myself
06:22:10 <esowiki> [[3.725254969642999e-321]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77492 * Quelklef * (+296) Created page with "3.725254969642999e-321 is a simple stack-based esolang created by [[User:Quelklef]] wherein the stack must only ever consist of valid IEEE 754 64-bit NaN values, or the interp..."
06:23:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77493&oldid=77468 * Quelklef * (+29) Add language 3.725254969642999e-321
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09:07:33 <kspalaiologos> hi
09:08:28 <kspalaiologos> I've been working on asm2bf a bit, got around to implementing the brainfuck kernel idea
09:08:37 <kspalaiologos> so far I got some cool stuff running already
09:09:17 <kspalaiologos> the bootloader loads the LBA(2) to memory at 0x500, which contains a small brainfuck interpreter which loads 4G descriptors for data and loads the brainfuck kernel file (the interpreter is RLE-aware) on 1M and puts the tape on 16M
09:09:41 <kspalaiologos> the brainfuck code loads the driver at 0x900 by `<'ing to the left and poking raw bytes there
09:10:00 <kspalaiologos> then sets up an interrupt hnadler on int 1Ch which then fires and starts executing the loaded machine code
09:10:16 <kspalaiologos> the driver put there by brainfuck code then modifies the brainfuck interpreter on 0x500 to add three instructions to it
09:10:42 <kspalaiologos> `!' pushes current cell value to the virtual I/O stack, `?' pops one, and `#' flushes it
09:10:43 <HackEso> ​!'? No such file or directory
09:11:12 <kspalaiologos> after the virtual i/o stack is flushed, the driver code called by the interpreter which has been modded before starts checking the first value on the stack
09:11:55 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77494 * LyricLy * (+10071) pandoc conversion from github readme.md
09:12:28 <kspalaiologos> and then pops off big endian 16-bit endian values, concatenates them to 32-bit register values, pops off the interrupt number, modifies self to actually call it, preserves state, ticks the interrupt, pops the state and saves the post-interrupt state to the I/O queue
09:12:51 <kspalaiologos> so far everything works, but the BIOS code is bugged somehow and probably smashes the stack
09:13:06 <kspalaiologos> but writing to video memory and stuff works
09:13:09 <kspalaiologos> thoughts?
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10:19:19 <imode> shame, that seemed interesting.
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12:23:16 <b_jonas> Is there a program that can emit hard seeking disk noises as an SSD does radnom access? I like being able to hear the disk usage.
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12:56:33 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to do that in hardware, by building something that makes noises (with a speaker, not a mock drive head or anything) and put that in line with the disk activity LED.
12:56:37 <fizzie> (A program is probably more reasonable, just wondering.)
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13:40:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: one problem is that it might not even make sense to ask how much an SSD is seeking, and/or hard to get that info, or it will behave very differently from a HDD due to how the kernel will optimize it differently. but you don't need to directly tie it to seeking, you could use some other composite metric that makes more sense.
13:41:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: as for making noise with speaker, someone has probably already recorded hard disk seeking noises with a microphone and published it. but you could also just use an unused old slow small dummy hard disk.
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14:23:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aspwil * New user account
14:33:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77495&oldid=77491 * Aspwil * (+212)
14:43:44 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77496 * Aspwil * (+241) created page
14:58:20 <esowiki> [[Sym]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77497 * Sugarfi * (+3920) Sym is a small, Turing complete language based on symbol replacement.
15:00:07 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77498&oldid=77496 * Aspwil * (+648)
15:00:19 <esowiki> [[Sym]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77499&oldid=77497 * Sugarfi * (+3)
15:08:34 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77500&oldid=77498 * Aspwil * (+350)
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16:57:31 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77501&oldid=77500 * Aspwil * (+4993)
16:58:09 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77502&oldid=77501 * Aspwil * (-110) page completed
17:02:11 <spruit11> I wanted to write some C++ software. Hilarity ensued.
17:03:02 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77503&oldid=77502 * Aspwil * (-6) captilization
17:04:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77504&oldid=77493 * Aspwil * (+12) /* S */
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17:10:49 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77505&oldid=77339 * Aspwil * (+323) added Sabdt hello world
17:17:17 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77506&oldid=77505 * Aspwil * (+2) /* [Sabdt] */ fixed sabdt link
17:21:58 <esowiki> [[User:Aspwil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77507 * Aspwil * (+224) Created page with "welcome to my page, have a cookie I am a person, the creator of [[sabdt]] I recently escaped from the closet dimension and will soon ascend to my throne as the kind of missi..."
17:22:22 <esowiki> [[User:Aspwil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77508&oldid=77507 * Aspwil * (+0)
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17:41:31 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77509&oldid=77503 * Woofmao * (+111) some basic copyediting
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19:52:49 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
19:52:50 <lambdabot> CYVR 151900Z 33004KT 2SM FU OVC049 19/14 A3012 RMK FU4SC4 SLP202 DENSITY ALT 300FT
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20:18:18 <arseniiv> what approaches to extendable recursive types do you use in Haskell (and in other languages)?
20:18:40 <arseniiv> oh well, I shouldn’t have asked, gtg
20:21:39 <rain1> extensible types...
20:21:55 <rain1> i actually don't know what that would be
20:22:11 <rain1> the whole thing about types afaict is that they are closed worlds
20:22:51 <rain1> you can do stuff like Data Types a la Carte maybe that's what you mean
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20:43:12 <spruit11> Blerch. Wanting to have something like a popen forces me to drop down to C/file handles everywhere in the os abstraction, I think.
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21:40:57 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
21:40:58 <lambdabot> CYVR 152138Z 31010KT 6SM FU BKN055 OVC150 OVC210 21/15 A3010 RMK FU3SC4AC1CI1 CI TR SLP194 DENSITY ALT 600FT
21:45:16 <spruit11> @metar EHDL
21:45:17 <lambdabot> EHDL 152125Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 BKN110 OVC300 19/15 Q1018 BLU
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22:05:06 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77510 * Tetrapyronia * (+588) Created page with "hey it's me :)<br> random languages i'm working on: == -1 == Commands: {| class="wikitable" |- | 1 || Push 1 |- | - || Pop top 2 items (A and B), push A-B |- | <...> || Repeat..."
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23:19:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77511&oldid=73437 * OsmineYT * (+90) /* Circles? */ new section
23:20:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77512&oldid=77511 * OsmineYT * (+115)
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23:54:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77513&oldid=77512 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) /* Circles? */
2020-09-16
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01:40:14 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77514&oldid=77510 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) /* -1 */
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03:26:22 <zzo38> Why does the throwing distance table in GURPS use the reciprocal of the weight ratio if it is more than 1, but the square root of the reciprocal if it is less than 1?
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06:44:20 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77515&oldid=76341 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Instructions */
07:28:11 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77516&oldid=76684 * Dion * (+1642)
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07:56:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * X64Mayhem * New user account
08:06:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77517&oldid=77495 * X64Mayhem * (+125) /* Introductions */
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09:02:30 <cpressey> All the yaks are staring me in the face.
09:02:37 <cpressey> Which one to shave first?
09:02:38 <arseniiv> rain1: exactly. There are several approaches in the current Haskell like that one (I think tagless final encoding is another?) and I’m interested how well they are used etc.
09:02:55 <int-e> cpressey: the closest one
09:03:33 <int-e> cpressey: but from a safe distance?
09:03:36 <int-e> hmm
09:03:48 <int-e> I realize I know nothing about yak-shaving.
09:03:53 <int-e> fungot: HELP!
09:03:53 <fungot> int-e: that the committee do and for organising the election, because, guess what, it shows to the fnord intelligence that is as efficient and effective as possible.
09:04:14 <int-e> Ugh, sounds political... EU? UK?
09:04:17 <int-e> ^style
09:04:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
09:04:45 <int-e> ^style homestuck
09:04:45 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
09:04:50 <int-e> fungot: what does this do?
09:04:50 <fungot> int-e: is it possible for one of your b100d and a beating heart tells in me, even the idiots. they are the most delicious bunches,
09:05:42 <int-e> fungot: don't end on a comma like that
09:05:42 <fungot> int-e: but it is your journey i am so over this puzzle,
09:05:58 <int-e> fungot: did they teach you nothing in grammar school?
09:05:58 <fungot> int-e: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
09:06:51 <int-e> . o O ( ^style urandom )
09:08:32 <arseniiv> also in languages with less of a type system. I tried making some stuff with mypy (one of typecheckers for Python) but usually I can’t express things. Though mypy is really neat, it can express unions, self-types and “overloaded” functions (as Python doesn’t have overloads; but you can make several alternative type signatures for a function) and also has Delphi-esque “type of class” thing. Once I used unions for something lik
09:08:32 <arseniiv> e à la carte thing, but I think I couldn’t tie the knot or something; there were some problems if not this one
09:11:26 <arseniiv> I know nothing about yak shaving too
09:12:09 <arseniiv> aren’t they sufficiently sheep-like in this regard?
09:12:09 <rain1> i think knot tying is possible but everything needs to be point free since there's no type level lambda
09:13:02 <arseniiv> my cat says that meaow
09:14:33 * cpressey starts preparing some post-it notes that read "Shaggy because not shaved yet because reasons" instead
09:15:12 <int-e> cpressey: do those go on the yaks?
09:17:12 <cpressey> int-e: Presumably.
09:20:48 <arseniiv> hmmm
09:25:38 <cpressey> I tried to look into what "final tagless" and "free monad interpreter" and these other things were, the other day.
09:26:31 <cpressey> I guess there were a few interesting things I picked up, but none of it had much appeal to me
09:29:38 <cpressey> The general idea of "evidence types" is a good one.
09:32:11 <cpressey> But it seems like it would be sometimes be difficult to apply. I'm writing a compiler, the language has a fairly complex AST. Some nodes at the leaves of the AST represent names. Those names can be unresolved, or resolved to refer to particular symbols.
09:33:06 <cpressey> It would be great to give them a different type if they were resolved, but, then the AST has to be able to contain two types of name nodes. Should the AST also get a different type?
09:33:25 <cpressey> If not, then it's not very much different from a sum type, which I'm already using.
09:33:43 <int-e> @google "evidence types"
09:33:44 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
09:34:12 <int-e> Fun. I guess that code bit-rotted.
09:34:43 <cpressey> "evidence type": instead of checking "is this valid", return Just a typed value representing a valid instance of the thing if it is valid, or Nothing otherwise
09:34:52 <cpressey> a.k.a a solution to "boolean blindness"
09:34:57 <cpressey> all this jargon
09:40:28 <int-e> so it was not connected to final tagless nor free monads?
09:40:53 <int-e> (*those* two are, to my mind, at best loosely connected)
09:41:21 <cpressey> Well, final tagless seems to be mainly a version of evidence types where, for each effect, there's an evidence type witnessing the fact that this function may use that effect
09:41:33 <int-e> (in that the expression problem comes up when you want to make a free monad extensible)
09:41:41 <cpressey> Or rather, evidence typeclasses, I suppose
09:42:02 <cpressey> Free monads is more or less something else entirely, yes
09:48:33 <cpressey> The thing with the expression problem is, y'know, I really don't mind recompiling if I have to.
09:49:04 <cpressey> It's not 1998 anymore.
09:50:10 <cpressey> I guess, in a lot of language ecosystems, people still do want to distribute libraries as opaque binary blobs, but.
09:53:19 <int-e> I don't know, isn't the whole expression problem just an admission that deep down, we want OOP ;-)
09:54:56 <int-e> (I'm semiserious about this. The problem is one that in OO languages would be solved by inheritance, plus some visitors.)
09:55:30 <cpressey> Yeah, a lot of this has the feel of typed functional programming trying to play catch-up to OOP.
09:56:16 <int-e> And as for its motivation... I think it still comes up when you want to provide a base tree type in a library and let users extend it with new node types.
10:46:32 <spruit11> Hmm, there was something like a dual to FP's expression problem in OO.
11:00:49 <spruit11> Anyway, though the expression problem exists there are usually okay work arounds to the problem.
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11:23:55 <int-e> spruit11: I believe the OO version of the problem is that it's hard to add new operations.
11:24:54 <int-e> (if you follow the pattern of having one method per operation that is overloaded in every inherited object that needs its own behavior)
11:26:19 <int-e> And it doesn't completely go away if you implement the visitor pattern (fold + traverse ;-) ) because now the visitor has a method for each child class, so that becomes hard to extend.
11:27:14 <int-e> programming is hard
11:30:38 <spruit11> Right, but what is never mentioned is that you can sometimes defensively work around it, right? I find that a bit of a shame.
11:33:22 <int-e> that's not buzzword-compatible.
11:33:47 <int-e> hard to write papers about too
11:34:07 <int-e> "we did the boring thing and nothing exciting ever happened"
11:36:05 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1827/ is relevant
11:41:28 <int-e> (For every success story about a new programming paradigm, how many failures are there? We usually don't know.)
11:46:03 <spruit11> Yah, it's hard to find honest academics.
11:46:44 <spruit11> Usually, you're supposed to figure out all drawbacks to some approach yourself.
11:46:58 <int-e> I don't think it's about honesty per se.
11:52:37 <int-e> There's almost no incentive for writing papers about failures... for the people who fail. I'm sure there are researchers on project management, software engineering and the like who lament that situation... they'd love to analyse failed projects.
11:53:38 <spruit11> I don't care about motives, only about outcome.
11:54:00 <spruit11> It's annoying if you always need to guess what isn't said.
11:57:49 <int-e> Well, sadly, the best place to find honest academics is at the bar near an academic conference... casual and off the record.
11:58:57 <int-e> And most of the publications don't lie either, but their scope is heavily biased towards success.
11:59:32 <int-e> Oh did I mention that many venues have page limits for papers which means the authors have to decide which aspects of their work are most interesting and relevant?
12:00:03 <spruit11> Mwa, I just take industry as a good lead. They're good at shaking out what's useful.
12:02:38 <int-e> and then there's the problem of citations... papers in academia are basically worthless unless they're cited by others
12:04:16 <int-e> industry... yeah that works as long as they don't try to sell you stuff (<cough/>blockchain)
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13:56:48 <arseniiv> hm industry hm that’s suboptimal still
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14:08:15 <Sgeo> Stumbled on 2/0, a fan-made sequel to 1/0. Attempted to read it, abandoned it quickly.
14:08:49 <Sgeo> Unless it becomes good eventually, I don't recommend it
14:08:59 <Sgeo> I think it might be intentionally annoying
14:16:33 <spruit11> My language?
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14:33:40 <Sgeo> ?? was referring to 2/0, the webcomic
14:33:40 <lambdabot> was referring to 2/0, the webcomic
14:39:27 -!-<