< 1601943962 338744 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1601943999 243021 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1601949088 315810 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-riwyczjhfkezsdzc PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor, poor elvish warrior < 1601952731 26234 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1601954659 746377 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1601954845 543450 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601957005 945095 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601957056 906981 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1601964301 420694 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601964302 19523 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601964302 123107 :spruit11!~unknown@86.82.44.193 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601964302 332729 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601964302 332769 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601964312 473865 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601964315 945247 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1601964612 911732 :spruit11!~unknown@86.82.44.193 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601964612 911785 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric < 1601964612 911793 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric > 1601966404 335629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77845&oldid=77814 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+411) 10Add TBI link > 1601966599 52104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SCREAMCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77846&oldid=77845 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+14) 10Links at top of page < 1601970954 506247 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1601971732 708894 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1601971883 772904 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601972603 597985 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601972640 571692 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 JOIN :#esoteric > 1601972768 98729 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77847&oldid=75428 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+36) 10 < 1601977525 924804 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-101.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601977915 994770 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601977922 279885 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601977996 967186 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1601978319 211684 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was playing around with your solitaire game again. I still can't wrap my head around all the parts. < 1601978339 986037 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember asking if prompt requires that what you give it is a GADT, in order for it to be correct by construction. < 1601978355 931525 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer is "no", because you can always make a GADT that just behaves like a plain ADT anyway. < 1601978487 993194 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to hunt to find out what "|" in a type class definition means, apparently it introduces a "functional dependency", which seems straightforward, at least on the surface, but maybe it's far more powerful than its most common use cases suggest < 1601978797 273949 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this thing? < 1601978860 175341 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html < 1601978893 714776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that one. < 1601978912 893427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is the question about the Prompt part or the type class part? < 1601978943 100499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :FunctionalDependencies are famously tricky in some cases, but this particular use is used by all the monad type classes, like MonadState. < 1601978988 467807 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can construct a monad very simply with prompt, by putting all of its effects as terms in a GADT, like the following example:" -- my question is basically, does it have to be a GADT? < 1601979054 895472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be anything. < 1601979087 129577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prompt f is a monad for any type constructor f. < 1601979115 610872 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I vaguely remember going over this now. < 1601979135 340000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, "GADT" means a particular syntax, but everything written with the GADT can also be written without, using a couple of extensions (existential quantifiers and type equality). < 1601979152 333662 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's just that GADTs are really useful for this sort of application, is why they're mentioned specifically? < 1601979154 893140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And in fact GHC represents GADTs as if you'd written them as regular data types with those features.) < 1601979335 161426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what this solitaire context is, but I usually think of this Prompt thing as being Free (Coyoneda f). < 1601979366 54083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they CPS-encode it too, so there are three mostly orthogonal layers to untangle here. < 1601980394 233435 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1601980404 570628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you have data Free f a = Leaf a | Branch (f (Free f a)), which is the free monad on a functor f, and also a kind of tree with f-shaped branches. < 1601980437 102087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you have Coyoneda f a = exists x. (x, x -> f a), which is the free (or cofree? Free, I think) functor on a type constructor. < 1601980479 830995 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601980488 256230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you combine them you get data Prompt f a = Leaf a | forall x. Branch x (x -> f (Prompt f a)) < 1601980522 79938 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you Church-or-whatever-encode that you get the type in that file. < 1601981565 863723 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601982151 802657 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601983073 123844 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1601983939 457836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot of propaganda against functional dependencies ever since type families entered the arena. < 1601984002 88974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also worth noting that MonadPrompt is so old that type families didn't exist. < 1601984021 419143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think.) < 1601984067 118600 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the propaganda has been there since before type families. < 1601984087 910242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway people tried type families for mtl and no one used it, right? < 1601984146 451006 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think because MonadState s m => ...s... is better than MonadState m => ...(StateType m)..., or something. < 1601984220 558010 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601984238 527650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot how’s the weather? < 1601984238 672503 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: john, it appears we have reached an impasse make a man feel totally justified in sporting an unnecessarily elaborate assortment of game setup. he's usually got a lot < 1601984238 855170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I think in the particular case that is a single associated type family, fundeps are more convenient. < 1601984260 29979 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ukparl < 1601984260 180369 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) < 1601984314 35944 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! type families are cool in all their kinds < 1601984521 527314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I say? Propaganda. < 1601984958 974478 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll need to read the logs it seems :D < 1601985059 901749 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how could one live a plentiful life without type families < 1601985115 420495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I try to write something typing-nontrivial in usual languages I constantly stumble on their absense < 1601985203 223807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll never appreciate the elegance and frugality of a fundep life, I suppose. < 1601985212 63143 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how often do you actually write something typing-nontrivial? < 1601985230 192139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is writing shellscripts right now.
< 1601985234 589332 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :next question! < 1601985244 633908 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that all of fundeps and type families and data families are available, but I don't actually use them all that often < 1601985248 776104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, negations < 1601985279 146478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still kind of agree with the sentiment. < 1601985289 136704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's odd :) < 1601985334 940510 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly I use Eigen to do numeric computations with vectors and matrixes, and it involves what would require rather complicated types if it was written in a typed language < 1601985356 802253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: But I imagine an Enterprise Haskell developer will *have* to deal with advanced type system features like type families, constraints a lot simply because many libraries adopt them. < 1601985425 986839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think "Enterprise Haskell" is an established term, but I believe we have long reached the point where it has become applicable.) < 1601985444 727707 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how about "Myopic Haskell" for lens-centric code. < 1601985447 16736 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eigen involves a lot of rather weird magic by the way, and you actually have to be careful with it because it's easy to misuse accidentally < 1601985487 58647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played with Eigen once and it wasn't easy to coerce it into doing what I wanted. < 1601985602 832402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though my problem wasn't correctness, it was to avoid allocations (through template instantiations) and get the compiler to elide some arithmetic that had no effect. I forgot the details, as usual.) < 1601985792 427382 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most tricky part is that if you build it multiple times with different instruction set extensions targeted by the compiler options (most commonly one for AVX and one for SSE2), the different copies can be binary incompatible with each other, unless you define the internal representation explicitly with preprocessor macros. < 1601985809 494677 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric : You'll never appreciate the elegance and frugality of a fundep life, I suppose. => fundeps are okay I guess. I wrote with them a bit < 1601985839 697900 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is partly documented in http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/dox/TopicPreprocessorDirectives.html but not all details are documented well. < 1601985880 284395 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus you can sometimes get errors if you use certain older Eigen versions with certain compilers. < 1601985884 854771 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but how often do you actually write something typing-nontrivial? => yes. I mean, I usually find a way to interesting typing questions to perfectly bland code, or maybe not perfectly bland < 1601985943 83676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Am I the only one who has been intimidated by `lens` for years and never touched it as a result?) < 1601986119 143550 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, there are fables about its great looming height, and personally I used lens once when tried to make a simple Scheme-like interpreter and I was glad for a bunch of operators there, but I never knew all of lens and now I forgot even those bits < 1601986167 994328 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I want basic lens functionality in mainstream languages, again. They start adopting immutable data but don’t include “immutable setters” and ways to compose all that < 1601986274 805426 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think basic `lens` usage is not hard to achieve, but maybe newer lens libraries give even easier life? I haven’t used them; is there a comparison somewhere, from a user’s practical standpoint? < 1601986742 675622 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't "basic lens functionality" stuff like map and reduce? < 1601986771 74421 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many mainstream languages already have stuff like that < 1601988303 122707 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1601988933 835399 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601989573 481338 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1601989590 911679 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1601989781 796801 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1601989833 538237 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made an incorrect change to my program, and suddenly I was getting weird errors from later down the line < 1601989877 384219 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nondeterministic ones > 1601991089 254806 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77848&oldid=77771 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+196) 10/* Discord account */ new section > 1601991409 65360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77849&oldid=77799 5* 03JWinslow23 5* (+13) 10Added Poetic < 1601992128 995172 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1601992315 199176 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1601992388 291651 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601993367 709849 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My latest compiler project (in Haskell) has stalled because it is clear that it will need to generate better error messages; and in order to do that it will need to keep track of some context, i.e. the current function; and in order to do that it will need to do something more sophisticated than just use the Either monad everywhere. < 1601993390 970177 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could use a monad transformer. I don't want to do that. < 1601993455 198387 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you want to do < 1601993473 990078 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could maybe use applicative functors; compose a writer applicative with a may-fail applicative. I'd kind of like to do that, but it would mean re-writing all the monadic code I've written so far. < 1601993543 222161 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I could "roll my own monad" with MonadPrompt (or Operational or Free), which is why I was talking about it this morning. < 1601993594 317429 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaning towards the latter. < 1601993701 748791 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Follow your heart! < 1601994007 576578 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1601994040 941018 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1601995335 885264 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601996389 223452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww < 1601996435 537022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Usually, when your heart is in front of you, things have gone seriously wrong.) < 1601996714 694291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mwhahaha. "There is no NAT with IPv6." < 1601997251 78657 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1601997324 815569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(source: a random person on the internet who felt confident enough to answer a question on serverfault (stackexchange)) < 1601997421 849546 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1601997440 94842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source: an optimist. < 1601997477 657024 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically, you don't _need_ NAT with ipv6 < 1601997486 914987 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601998463 679111 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine > 1601998662 509351 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Computerdeutsch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77850&oldid=76633 5* 03Orangeyy 5* (+0) 10 < 1601998802 29808 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked into NAT with IPv6 briefly, when I had an ISP that just assigned a single /64 for non-business subscribers as their "native IPv6 support". Instead, I think I ended up with something even weirder, like proxy neighbor discovery to claim the addresses. But it was pretty awkward to need separate IPv4 network segments (since there was just the one public IPv4 address) while IPv6 was flat. > 1601998817 921933 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Computerdeutsch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77851&oldid=77850 5* 03Orangeyy 5* (+4) 10 > 1601998904 684946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EWagon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77852&oldid=76629 5* 03Orangeyy 5* (-10) 10 < 1601998944 781069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately the next two ISPs did assign a /48 (I think) and a /56, respectively. < 1601998995 734291 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't a /64 enough? < 1601999024 736625 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's big enough to subdivide, it's larger than the whole ipv4 space, isn't it? < 1601999032 154431 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't subdivide a /64. < 1601999037 940358 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you're not supposed to, anyway. < 1601999053 323803 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the standard autoconfiguration won't work for segments smaller than /64. < 1601999074 631211 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1601999088 677357 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's why you nated multiple segments into that? < 1601999155 157936 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Further, they didn't really "assign a /64" in the sense that they'd route all traffic for a /64 to you, they just expected to learn about all hosts in a /64 via neighbor discovery. < 1601999208 186671 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1601999248 569933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I looked into NAT because that way it'd at least have been the exact same setup for IPv4 and IPv6 (the router connected to the ISP gets a public address, the LAN uses private addresses, and NAT takes care of allowing other machines to access the public Internet). < 1601999248 679072 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never configured ipv6, I don't know how this works < 1601999283 487971 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, unless you count "leave everything as defaults and hope the computer and the router figures out something when they talk to each other" or "disable ipv6 on an interface" as configuring ipv6 < 1601999387 26392 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1601999550 581666 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I see < 1601999567 579240 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did that work? < 1601999606 357970 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If memory serves, it did. But this was 6 years and three ISPs ago. < 1601999629 658779 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current setup I have uses DHCPv6 prefix delegation, which I understand has become relatively common for "consumer" applications. The router is given a prefix (typically a /56), and can then allocate a /64 (or more) for any network(s) it wants to have, and let the final address assignment happen either via stateless (neighbor discovery + router advertisement) or stateful (DHCPv6) autoconfiguration. < 1601999808 362220 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, actually... now that I've said that, I went to check, and after the most recent reboot, the router actually *hasn't* gotten an IPv6 address at all. Hmm. < 1601999865 792151 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, up until now it's been working fine, and I'm sure it'd still do if I wasn't masochistic enough to run a bleeding-edge OpenWRT just because the kind of software you get otherwise is depressing. < 1602000015 577167 :cpressey!~cpressey@88.144.95.3 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1602000152 745847 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means you don't have ipv6 connection to the internet? < 1602000254 321148 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I didn't even notice. < 1602000377 736825 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, that probably also explains why the HTTP black-box monitoring I've set up for esolangs.org has been reporting the site as down. (Didn't prioritize looking into that because it seemed to be working fine.) < 1602000951 803812 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe > 1602001112 296398 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03WhyNot? 5* 10New user account > 1602001181 50683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77853&oldid=77830 5* 03WhyNot? 5* (+31) 10 > 1602001286 811234 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:WhyNot?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77854 5* 03WhyNot? 5* (+22) 10Created page with " print('Hello World!')" < 1602001438 638491 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.debian.net/1166119/ <-- see anything odd? :-) < 1602001502 18260 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there are suspiciously too few processes. other than that, no. < 1602001517 406919 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I usually use ps -H intead of pstree < 1602001523 387098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: look at the name of PID 1 < 1602001544 652026 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, that just means someone started the machine in single user < 1602001565 333789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I guess that would do it. < 1602001581 325312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would also explain the lack of services :) < 1602001601 157978 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1602001639 81897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this is still me playing with containers. The bash will be there, but the ultimate goal is to do some initialization and then hand things off to a proper init. < 1602001652 165757 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1602001702 609910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also, with sshd running this is already pretty usable. < 1602001730 344246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm somewhat elated for once. Bbl. < 1602001987 190444 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1602002064 810770 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` pstree -p | paste < 1602002066 62957 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.21095 < 1602002136 39600 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, well, "init" is a pretty boring name for PID 1. < 1602002153 397082 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, is that perl running the rnooodl script? < 1602002159 745542 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate that script but I'm too lazy to fix it < 1602002218 232122 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, guess so. And the cat(49) is the cat that makes the output not a terminal. < 1602002299 650835 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't *that* many processes in the container one level up either, though a bit more than in int-e's example: http://ix.io/2zUQ < 1602002407 554891 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602002710 173990 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1602005078 416500 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh JOIN :#esoteric < 1602005397 329211 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602005532 389372 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602006449 436361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, socat can fork children? hmm. < 1602006501 601903 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh TOPIC #esoteric : < 1602006515 606470 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh TOPIC #esoteric :Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/ < 1602006535 363493 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1602006540 852064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that may be easier than what I'm currently doing for lambdabot) < 1602006676 530087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No worries... as long as the gist of it and the links to the logs and wiki are preserved and you don't spam the topic, noone will complain. > 1602006891 423735 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Orangeyy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77855&oldid=76628 5* 03Orangeyy 5* (-26) 10 < 1602007041 492548 :user3456!user3456@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-savifiztfhhlqqsh PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know what happened to the zem.fi hill for BF Joust? < 1602007238 232104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-99.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1602007269 585060 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602007613 651415 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1602009007 33670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Computerdeutsch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77856&oldid=77851 5* 03Orangeyy 5* (+212) 10 > 1602012300 530274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Filth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77857&oldid=77554 5* 03Bananaapple 5* (-4) 10optimized examples < 1602013634 3741 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602013776 493944 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1602013913 591914 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1602014011 644274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77858&oldid=77848 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+135) 10/* Discord account */ < 1602014095 733098 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1602017465 784586 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77859&oldid=77858 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+82) 10 > 1602017480 198205 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77860&oldid=77859 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+113) 10 < 1602021165 715601 :Frankenstein!nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :Frankenlime < 1602021269 380851 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602021300 827009 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602021324 315516 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1602022599 645306 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:SoicBR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77861 5* 03SoicBR 5* (+2) 10Created page with "a." > 1602022852 178310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:SoicBR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77862&oldid=77861 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+54) 10/* A new topic */ new section > 1602022871 535320 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:SoicBR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77863&oldid=77862 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+113) 10 < 1602022949 872159 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1602023416 87995 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1602024218 231690 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: The canonical multibot runner script is: while true; do socat TCP4:irc.freenode.net:6667 EXEC:'./multibot '"$NAME"' '"$CHANNEL"' '"$NAME"'.log'; done < 1602024356 342566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: upone reflection it's not applicable. My use of socat is for enabling SSL for lambdabot. < 1602024363 961675 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, could not figure out the IPv6 connectivity issues. If I restart the DHCPv6 client, it starts sending solicitations on the interface, but gets no response. Monitoring suggests problems started at 3:40am in the morning, which doesn't coincide with anything I did. Complained to ISP; will see if they come up with anything other than "have you tried restarting your router?".) < 1602024376 320896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But lambdabot wants to connect to some port somewhere, so socat is just a proxy. < 1602024434 873729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had mysterious neighbour discovery problems with lambdabot's host < 1602024507 41111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up just adding a permanent neighbour because I never figured out whether the environment was misbehaving, or the local linux kernel. < 1602024533 125928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at that, I also have a fixed default route. < 1602024564 885794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd do a static config but I think they actually require the DHCPv6 prefix delegation in order to actually start the traffic flowing. < 1602024589 420345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this one (Ramnode) doesn't. < 1602024603 124216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a VPS. < 1602024613 401213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has a fixed IP and all that. < 1602024620 121138 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's kind of different than someone's home. < 1602024636 509441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I do in fact have a fixed IP, paying £5/month extra for it. < 1602024654 365498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably a completely different problem :) But what you said brought up some memories. < 1602024658 297861 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think I need to dynamically request my static IP. ;) < 1602024681 859686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's dialup, the neighbours might not be fixed? < 1602024693 908951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for DSL they might be. < 1602024696 114458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tricky :) < 1602024725 353519 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm. Well, it's an Ethernet hole in the wall as far as I'm concerned, I've no idea what happens to it after that. < 1602024750 712133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some managed switch shouting it's proprietary management protocols over the wire every now and then. < 1602024788 318958 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, it could be something ND-related, because if I look at any IPv6 traffic, I do see neighbor discovery requests for my router's link-local address, every time repeated three times. My router sends a reply to each, but it doesn't seem to matter. < 1602024822 304940 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normally I'd blame my nftables setup, but I haven't touched it in a while. < 1602027116 418857 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEH. foiled by default configuration. < 1602027170 968476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Debian's Apache ships with Alias /icons/ "/usr/share/apache2/icons/" enabled.)