< 1603238632 469306 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1603239169 274990 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1603240192 658117 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603240465 585500 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1603242877 689223 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1603243439 511020 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603243570 694828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603243599 326473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why there isn't a cryptographic hash designed to be collision-resistant, but intentionally not preimage-resistant < 1603243630 535214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea would be that posting such a hash would be a way of saying, effectively, "I want you to have access to the data that this hash is pointing to" < 1603243681 944399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is technically just a compression function, in the gzip/bzip2 sense, but it would also allow for, say, having the file stored somewhere on the Internet, together with a download URL and a cryptographic hash for verifying you had the right file < 1603243714 426200 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1603243780 778191 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, magnet: URI does some of those things, but if you would have such a hash function available, you could use it in the magnet: URI maybe < 1603243946 829123 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I probably do not fully understand, anyways < 1603244155 119469 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does seem like it would do what you said. < 1603245377 295091 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What's the benefit of not having it be preimage-resistant in that scenario? < 1603246688 354945 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603246945 232919 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1603247040 77525 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1603249927 932837 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603250048 905627 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603250131 453121 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1603250210 854146 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1603250351 528343 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1603250497 381870 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1603251383 512909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: What's the benefit of not having it be preimage-resistant in that scenario? ← giving the hash to someone would be evidence that you wanted them to have the data, so there are no security implications of reversing the hash < 1603251402 819677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., if you have a file on your system that matches the hash, you could safely give it to anyone who gave you the hash < 1603251494 266219 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't follow. Can't you just decide on that rule, if you want to use the hash that way? < 1603251520 958014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a 256-bit hash and a 256MB file, the fact that people can find a preimage (or even enumerate all preimages) doesn't help them get the file at all. < 1603251577 862787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone having possession of, say, an SHA-256 hash of a file doesn't imply anything about whether they're supposed to have the file or not < 1603251609 464486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the hash is designed not to be preimage-resistant, then possession of the hash does imply that you're meant to have access to the file < 1603251649 618458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the person who made the hash has the file, and could have given it to them; and if they weren't meant to be giving access to the file at the same time, they would use a hash that was preimage-resistant < 1603251801 448686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intended idea behind this, by the way, was for a hypothetical OS with much tighter permissions control than, say, Linux or Windows < 1603251807 625141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where programs only had access to what they needed < 1603251827 146678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea was that the programs could store some sort of hash for files that they didn't "own", allowing them to read them < 1603251863 899515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that you would need to be able to prove that possession of the hash implied it was safe to give the possessor the file itself < 1603251932 938749 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. Now I understand (I think). < 1603252023 766350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, hrm... you want capabilities that can be persistent? < 1603252029 334706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :preimage-resistant hashes are often used to prove that you have a file without intending to give the file to the person you give the hash to, so in order to prevent it being used for that purpose, it has to be non-preimage-resistant < 1603252033 280402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, that's a good way to think about it < 1603252040 872965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a capability for access to information < 1603252127 160617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you wouldn't actually use the non-preimage-resistance for anything? < 1603252188 16364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like you can just use SHA-256 for this, and only give people hashes of files if you want them to have access. < 1603252202 218325 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can use SHA-256 with a different starting state or something. < 1603252235 729773 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seem to me that at least preimage resistance is not necessary for this case, but that a different hash is wanted to tell the difference of its use; I suppose SHA-256 with a different starting state might work, maybe < 1603252250 526106 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, content-addressable memory is the other keyword that came to my mind. < 1603252282 993918 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I want there to be as few cryptographic primitves as possible and have them be simple and flexible. < 1603252311 874180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where "memory" is generic, could be a file system, could even be a distributed file sharing thing)) < 1603252352 328212 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is SHA-256 different-starting-state-resistance?) < 1603252370 937383 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When is NIST-or-whoever going to standardize an unkeyed permutation? < 1603252384 230209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like the best symmetric primitive to me. < 1603252476 820092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could construct something like this quite simply, e.g. concatenate a file's SHA-256, SHA-1, MD5, and the first 16 bytes of the file < 1603252498 949725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that clearly leaks information about the underlying file, and is clearly at least as collision-resistant as SHA-256 is < 1603252514 518411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the SHA-1 and MD5 make it easier to find random copies of the file that might be floating around online) < 1603252548 476443 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1603253189 162309 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603253290 301244 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there is that. Does a magnet URI allow you to specify all of that stuff in one URI? < 1603253454 93547 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1603253463 430003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the magnet URI is the sort of thing I was looking for < 1603253583 773016 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that you can specify a single hash in a magnet URI, but I don't know if you can specify multiple hashes for the same file. < 1603253711 274879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not clear to me whether the format allows the same key to be given multiple times to give it multiple values < 1603253737 706768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there seems to be some sort of standardisation mismatch, you can specify an SHA-1 hash in a magnet URI with xt=urn:sha1:hash < 1603253747 456319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sha1 is not an officially registered URN namespace < 1603253784 973910 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, as far as I can tell no hash codes are officially registered URN namespaces < 1603253982 332349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm semi-seriously considering sending off a request to IANA to add some < 1603254057 995560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two, sha1 seems to be most widely used for this, but we would ideally want a hash function that isn't broken as an option < 1603254063 339627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or at least, isn't known to be broken) < 1603254642 333051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps urn:sha1: wouldn't be accepted because of the potential for two different file to have the same URN < 1603254696 198445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would need to be defined very carefully, e.g. saying that the URN referred to the only file in existence that had that hash at the time the URN was first created, and that creating such a URN is not valid if two different files with the same hash exist < 1603255006 139229 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it could still work; the URN refers to the hash itself, not to the file. < 1603255169 854163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's an interesting concept < 1603255176 736581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the URN would clearly be more useful if it referred to the file < 1603255285 19015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, something I learned today: the attacks on SHA-1 are still improving, Wikipedia says that with the latest techniques, a chosen-prefix collision on SHA-1 would cost about US$45000 of computer time < 1603255424 678646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much is that attacks getting better vs. GPUs or something getting better? < 1603255654 774911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of it is attacks getting better < 1603256425 611301 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603256674 640726 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1603259114 487155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1603259673 382617 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603259963 231559 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1603262925 997041 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603263203 74216 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1603263387 522598 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603263701 581197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603263757 635447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1603263886 965353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603264055 522331 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1603264079 14938 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1603264258 809172 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603265296 287871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bot < 1603265296 432610 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1603265316 517148 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1603265316 621401 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they are trying to solve here? going to throw away < 1603267600 598368 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603267677 312240 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone aware of a left-total esolang other than Zot? (All possible input strings are syntactically valid) < 1603267745 658361 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1603267854 458585 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programs < 1603267903 782936 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1603269454 322063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about Malbolge > 1603269574 897334 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Tuan2090 5* 10New user account < 1603270071 371238 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you count comments, most of them are? < 1603270085 818513 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, bf ignores non-command chars in most implementations < 1603270588 125333 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1603270623 249560 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue wether or not a bf program with unbalanced brackets is syntacticaly valid < 1603270630 860899 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1603270631 528267 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i say, they are < 1603270686 731987 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking about all possible binary mappings. Iterate from 0 to limit, input the (n-ary) form of this number into the program and plot the relation between the inputs and the outputs somehow < 1603270740 268559 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*input into the program => use this as the program < 1603270792 190574 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat unrelated: http://wry.me/hacking/Turing-Drawings < 1603271743 15044 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1603271764 489932 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :K-Lined < 1603271943 329977 :izabera!izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric < 1603272223 890837 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1603272317 677865 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1603272825 699874 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603272878 914189 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : /j #minecraft < 1603273629 49760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/joy < 1603274470 184455 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@46.217.218.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603274646 170361 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1603274650 439296 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@46.217.218.115 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1603275894 756115 :ATMunn!ATMunn@gateway/shell/hellomouse/x-xrcojctcvffovltv QUIT :Quit: lol rip < 1603276030 579162 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:4975:7ae8:c0fc:49e9 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1603276071 90216 :ATMunn!ATMunn@hellomouse.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603276731 908906 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.218.115 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603276758 519722 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.218.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603276758 631799 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.218.115 QUIT :Changing host < 1603276758 631847 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603278257 378739 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.2 - http://znc.in < 1603278967 336649 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1603279212 121889 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainflub14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78090&oldid=78023 5* 03Aryantech123 5* (+190) 10 < 1603279809 660714 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit! < 1603279971 523404 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1603281131 145302 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric > 1603282214 96376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Conglument14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78091&oldid=77224 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10 > 1603283396 913190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78092&oldid=75763 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10/* The arithmetic system */ Correct documentation (equality -> assignment) < 1603284270 882557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From elsewhere, but the animation's nice: https://twitter.com/AlanZucconi/status/1315967202797981696 < 1603284511 2663 :ski!~ski@nc-2504-30.studat.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1603284628 278443 :ski!~ski@nc-2504-30.studat.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1603285302 388577 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1603285319 862662 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric > 1603286045 78005 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ThisIsTheFoxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78093&oldid=77895 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+1512) 10added HTPL/HTPF section < 1603288528 249247 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603288990 827046 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603290122 996556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've been imagining something similar. suppose aliens start selling a magical box cheaply and in large numbers. this magical box has an ethernet connection, and you can do two things with it. either you upload a file, to which it gives you an unpredictable digest (which may be pure random, or a cryptographically good trap function with a key that we can't extract from the box and a seed that's < 1603290128 994627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :new every time, there's no way to tell), or give the box a digest, and if anyone has got that digest from any box anywhere, it gives you the corresponding file. < 1603290214 519394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be the ultimate compression scheme, so suddenly most computers (including photo cameras and such) wouldn't need high capacity storage devices, or high bandwidth internet connections. some specialty high performance applications would still use traditional hard disks and SSDs, when the bandwidth and latency of the box is too small, or for old-style people like me who don't trust any new < 1603290220 455713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :technology. < 1603290257 758212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be a size limit for files you can upload, but it doesn't matter, you can always just upload it in chunks and upload a tree indexed by digests and transmit the digest of the root. < 1603290336 902872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :physics probably bans this because of entropy stuff, but it at least still doesn't let you send signals faster than light speed, because the digests are long and random enough that you can't randomly guess the digest of any file someone else has uploaded without learning the digest indirectly from the box. < 1603290435 465870 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would let us simulate really large (but not necessarily extra-fast) hard disks that are easy to back up, because you'd only need to carry a digest to save the entire backup < 1603290472 252566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't give you writable storage: if you want remote backups every day, you have to send a new digest to the remote location every day. < 1603290527 382345 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also having a digest would essentially count as proof that you have the data that it points to, like for proving that you have gotten access to industrial secrets or copyright-protected information < 1603290560 543920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could have very short bits of information that you aren't allowed to distribute < 1603290632 469164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would also help connect places where it's currently expensive to set up high bandwidth data connections for practical reasons, like in isolated places or between continents or to space < 1603291117 578221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also none of the properties would break if the digest was unseeded (so it gave the same result if two people upload the same data), and even computed by a known hash function that is cryptographically safe (eg. the aliens describe how to compute the hash function in the manual), but somehow I always imagine the digest as not reproducible, because that's somehow more believable < 1603291163 851860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could even have it so that you don't need to upload anything to the box, as long as you have a file and compute its digest using the safe crypto hash function that the aliens specify in the manual, it's enough for anyone to download, which seems even more magical but doesn't seem to break anything > 1603291208 238003 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78094&oldid=72175 5* 03WhyNot? 5* (+15) 10 < 1603291349 324960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course the digest has to be long enough to be secure from a birthday attack on an expensive fast parallelized GPU cluster < 1603291385 818226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with any technology we or the aliens may have in the future < 1603292310 808470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, if they work with a public hash function, but the boxes were so expensive we can't afford even a single one, yet we had access to a manual and knew that the boxes work, then we'd at least have a guaranteed crytographically secure hash function, which would be a nice consolation prize < 1603292327 706261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(until of course they destroy everyone with a death ray) < 1603293382 654262 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1603293559 159327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the device must be impossible to reverse-engineer, and if it communicates with other instances of the devices, then it has to do so such that we can't gain information from it, especially not about what files are uploaded or downloaded or their digests < 1603293573 485007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it must be rectangular and painted black < 1603293675 309162 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603295615 618923 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603295902 613781 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1603296140 427918 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603296238 25734 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1603296560 123280 :xgqt!~xgqt@static62133140007.ostnet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603296814 52712 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1603296982 505890 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603296985 643438 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1603297462 910133 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu3 < 1603297474 270938 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1603300835 166665 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603303829 859753 :xgqt!~xgqt@static62133140007.ostnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1603306850 35715 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603309076 860966 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1603312516 525237 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric > 1603313271 400824 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78095&oldid=78032 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+45) 10 < 1603313523 437853 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:413d:d4f5:b07b:cbf4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603315089 89922 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50966676/why-do-arm-chips-have-an-instruction-with-javascript-in-the-name-fjcvtzs < 1603315737 726514 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1603315810 120050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: yeah, those are useful. the float to fix instructions on x86 suck really. < 1603315820 836287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's useful not only for javascript. < 1603315851 955869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are conversion instructions, but not ones that round to highest or lowest integer value on over/underflow, which is the behavior you often want < 1603316045 69820 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1603316072 762178 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1603316694 526598 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought make up a kind of compression for restaurant menu texts. It could be done using existing compression formats, with preset dictionaries and whatever, but also could be new ones; either way, would also be the base format which would pack the data to be optimized in the format. < 1603317038 553616 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:413d:d4f5:b07b:cbf4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1603317877 622469 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@91.90.11.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1603317912 721887 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@91.90.11.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impact of order of files in tar archive on compressed size https://yurichev.com/news/20201021_tar_order/ < 1603318160 178192 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 7-Zip normally uses solid compression separately per filename extension. < 1603318175 779735 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@91.90.11.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: interesting < 1603318401 420764 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603319167 86799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, I think it just uses solid compression in blocks, and sorts files by default though you can override that, and the default sort order has changed "recently" (last ten years) < 1603319222 746097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: https://www.7-zip.org/faq.html < 1603319354 193804 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1603319385 423990 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK, now I read that < 1603319544 210382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and you can give the -mqs=off option to disable sorting if you specify an explicit list of files that you sort in some good way < 1603319683 968032 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603321140 38393 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1603321865 622479 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1603321894 251340 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1603324225 629355 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1603324732 792763 :esowiki!~esowiki@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/esowiki QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds