00:37:02 <Lykaina> working on a fizzbuzz program for echidna 0006e
00:47:08 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79508&oldid=68228 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Not stub
00:47:51 <Lykaina> well, i've got a 1-100 working...
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00:56:36 <Lykaina> 34 commands in 9 different "subs"
00:58:55 <Lykaina> had it smaller, but i wanted it more optimised
01:32:13 <Lykaina> http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/progs%20(0006e)/ is the example programs
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01:57:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79509&oldid=78157 * D * (+260) Don't know where I heard of this extension, but added for completeness
02:00:57 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79510&oldid=79509 * D * (+88)
02:03:43 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79511&oldid=79510 * D * (+113) /* Examples */
02:13:22 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79512&oldid=79511 * D * (+374)
02:15:57 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79513&oldid=79512 * D * (+291) /* Equations */
02:22:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79514&oldid=79513 * D * (+100) /* Extensions */
02:24:29 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79515&oldid=79514 * D * (-24) /* Extensions */
02:28:39 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79516&oldid=79515 * D * (+396) /* Extensions */
02:31:11 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79517&oldid=79516 * D * (+36)
02:32:13 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79518&oldid=79517 * D * (-88) /* External resources */ Realized that it's not a good link anyway.
02:37:31 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79519&oldid=79518 * D * (+0) /* Add one function */
03:21:32 <Lykaina> is anyone actually interested in my arduino-based sd-read language?
03:23:04 <Lykaina> i get the feeling it's not very esoteric, but i still want comments
03:36:44 <zzo38> I don't have any Arduino; maybe someone who does have may be interested in such a thing, I suppose.
03:38:06 <Lykaina> i linked documentation and a folder with examples
04:02:00 <nakilon> try posting to /r/arduino or something
04:17:34 <Lykaina> the echidna language can easily be implemented in c
04:18:20 <Lykaina> it's not arduino-dependant
04:20:55 <Lykaina> sorry for implying otherwise
04:21:40 <Lykaina> http://thor.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/arduino/progs%20(0006e)/ is the example programs. how do they look?
04:22:58 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79520&oldid=79519 * D * (+77) /* Introduction */ Add stuff from the paper
04:25:53 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79521&oldid=79520 * D * (+39) /* Equations */
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06:22:39 <zzo38> I look, it look like OK to me
06:25:25 <zzo38> Still I wanted to see if someone is interested in the projects I have made too, though; not only you.
06:27:35 <zzo38> I looked at the echidna reference; it look like OK to me, but is PDF needed, or I would expect plain text might do just as well?
06:29:56 <zzo38> (Also, a better explanation of some things might help, too.)
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07:02:48 <int-e> Hrm, I don't understand why today's AoC is so twisty... intuitively the first part seems much harder than the twist.
07:04:11 <shachaf> I wish they showed the twists without an account after the leaderboard filled up.
07:04:27 <int-e> there are private leaderboards too
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08:14:41 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79522&oldid=79287 * Quintopia * (+2759) Add implementation
08:15:43 <esowiki> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79523&oldid=79522 * Quintopia * (+22) repair code block formatting
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08:43:22 <ais523> an esoquestion that has come up multiple times (including now) and I still haven't found a satisfactory answer to
08:43:54 <ais523> suppose you have a string of Unicode characters, and want to display it to a person
08:44:13 <ais523> outputting it unchanged is inappropriate because some Unicode characters are control codes that will have weird effects if you try to output them, so you have to replace them
08:44:50 <ais523> with C0 control codes (+ DEL and NEL), the correct course of action is fairly obvious: just use the corresponding Unicode control picture to represent it
08:44:52 <zzo38> The way to do it depends on the context. Sometimes there is no good way.
08:45:03 <ais523> however, I haven't found a satisfactory solution for C1 control codes
08:46:29 <ais523> well, I'm ideally looking for a general solution because I need to tell a computer how to do it, and computers often don't have that much sense of context
08:48:17 <zzo38> You must have some kind of context, at least. For example, if it is being output as a part of a HTML document, I think there is a command in HTML 5 to isolate the effect of Unicode control characters.
08:48:47 <ais523> <bdi> isolates directional override characters
08:48:54 <ais523> but those are not considered control characters in Unicode
08:48:54 <zzo38> But if nothing else works, best might be to just display printable ASCII characters only, and to display the Unicode codepoint numbers where non-ASCII or non-printable characters are present.
08:49:43 <zzo38> HTML also has a &# command, in case you want to escape any character, I suppose
08:49:51 <ais523> the only Unicode "control characters" (\p{Cc} in a regex) are U+0000 to U+001F inclusive and U+007F to U+009F inclusive
08:50:21 <zzo38> You could also display some kind of substitute for C1 controls I suppose, if wanted to do
08:51:40 <ais523> using an &# numeric entity for a control character is actually defined to be an error in HTML
08:52:34 <ais523> although, the HTML specification provides a specific error recovery action, which is to interpret the given number as a Windows-1252 codepoint rather than a Unicode codepoint
08:53:57 <ais523> actually, the HTML specification's error recovery is really dubious in some respects
08:54:11 <ais523> e.g. a literal C0 control code is an error, but the error recovery action is to treat it literally (???)
08:54:21 <ais523> so there are erroneous HTML documents that parse to something that cannot be expressed in a valid HTML document
08:54:57 <ais523> and this has come up in practice on websites like TIO, where I frequently want to input text that contains control characters, and the website then tries to echo it back to me
08:55:31 <ais523> oh, on a side note, a quirk of encoding means that "set tab stop" is in Unicode but "delete tab stop" isn't
08:55:49 <zzo38> Many people will try to use Unicode for everything; that is not a good idea, I think. For some things it works OK. They also want to use HTML for everything, which also isn't the best idea, either.
08:56:02 <ais523> if they both were, it is possible that it would be Turing-complete (assuming an implicit loop around the program) using set tab stop, delete tab stop, space, backspace, tab and carriage return
08:57:10 <ais523> well, the current situation where this came up is that I'm in a situation where I need to use HTML, so I'm trying to write a safe HTML generation library that's restricted to a set of HTML that behaves sanely and is secure
08:57:25 <ais523> to avoid needing to try to generate it directly and probably making a mistake
08:57:58 <zzo38> Can you figure out such a thing? Make a character set including a "delete tab stop" control and the other five listed, figure out if it is Turing-complete or not, maybe write in esolang wiki about such thing if you figure out anything about that
08:59:16 <zzo38> One thing you could do, if you only care about C0 and C1 controls, perhaps is to replace the controls by something such as <span class="unicode-control">9F</span> or whatever
08:59:34 <ais523> that doesn't work inside attributes, like title=
09:00:12 <ais523> anything other than C0 and C1 controls is either safe to output literally given appropriate bidirectional isolation, or else is so obviously an error that you can just replace it with a replacement character
09:00:38 <zzo38> O, yes, you are right. Inside of attributes you may need something else. If the attribute is a URL, you can use percent encoding, but if it isn't, then you will need to do something else; you could use Windows-1252, or just use replacement characters maybe, I don't know
09:00:42 <ais523> so C0 and C1 controls are just the hard part
09:02:34 <zzo38> I don't like those error handling either I think that a better idea might be to ignore Unicode character properties entirely and instead for the implementation to use whatever is specified in the font tables; the web browser could include a font with Windows-1252 characters in the C1 controls area in order to satisfy the HTML specification, I suppose
09:04:12 <ais523> in retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include control characters in Unicode at all; Unicode itself should have restricted itself to non-control characters, and control characters should have been specified as part of the encoding not as part of the character repertoire
09:04:45 <ais523> but, it is very commonplace to store control characters literally in strings…
09:05:01 <ais523> incidentally, I tested out some percent-encodings on my webserver
09:05:05 <zzo38> Yes, that may have been better
09:05:39 <ais523> it seems to be happy to percent-decode any byte in a URL, including treating %2F as a directory separator, with the exception of %00 which causes a "bad request" error (400)
09:05:53 <zzo38> I also think that it would be better that <bdi> isolates everything, not only directional override but also ligatures, kerning, variation selectors, etc.
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09:06:39 <ais523> I am not convinced that this corresponds to the specification
09:06:52 <ais523> hmm, I would expect *any* tag to isolate things like variation selectors
09:07:00 <ais523> although possibly not kerningg
09:07:27 <ais523> although, I seem to remember there was a big discussion by one of the browser vendors about what they should do in terms of rendering if a combining character is a different color from the character it combines onto
09:08:02 <zzo38> Actually, depending on how the kernings are encoded in the font, and on the direction of the kernings, it may be OK that <bdi> and other tags do not isolate kerning in all cases
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09:09:17 <zzo38> About combining characters, I should think probably it should disregard any ligatures between characters of different colours, so if any combinations are implemented with ligatures, those combinations will not work if they are different colours.
09:10:21 <zzo38> But if it is implemented only with changing the positions, it ought to still work, I should expect. (Although, I think that <bdi> should probably disregard commands in the font for repositioning combining characters too)
09:11:43 <ais523> Firefox seems to block combining characters at the edge of a <span>
09:11:59 <ais523> so <bdi> would definitely block combining
09:17:18 <ais523> hmm, so apparently UTF-5 can encode C1 control codes but not C0 control codes
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09:17:46 <ais523> even more impressively, I tried looking up the IPs for some addresses containing C1 control codes in dig, and it rejected them due to containing invalid characters
09:18:01 <ais523> (an example is xn--a-a.com)
09:22:12 <zzo38> Did you write "xn--a-a.com" or did you write something that will be converted as that? Also, does it depend on the locale at all? The man page says that you can add a IDN_DISABLE environment variable if you want to disable IDN, though.
09:22:42 <ais523> I wrote xn--a-a.com directly (it encodes a U+0080 character followed by an "a")
09:23:50 <ais523> (which in turn would in theory be equivalent to an ASCII "a", except that the standard that would have defined that removed it before being standardised and so now it's just an unused control code)
09:23:57 <zzo38> On my computer, I get no message about it being rejected, although there seems to be no such domain name
09:24:55 <ais523> …actually, I am really bothered by SS2 and SS3 in particular being in Unicode
09:25:02 <ais523> these are encoding control characters
09:25:22 <ais523> the correct way to translate a file containing them in Unicode is to follow their instructions about what encoding the file is in
09:25:30 <ais523> not to translate them literally
09:34:20 <ais523> I've tried rendering C1 control codes by putting combining characters on the C0 control pictures
09:34:28 <ais523> but, most text renderers don't produce anything particularly meaningful for that
09:35:24 <ais523> in particular the control picture often isn't centered correctly
09:39:17 <ais523> actually, combining circumflex looks fairly good on my computer, even though it's offset
09:39:23 <ais523> how does http://nethack4.org/pastebin/82.html look for the people here?
09:40:29 <zzo38> It looks like OK to me
09:44:59 <ais523> of course, the names of the C0 control characters don't match the C1 control characters very well
09:45:05 <ais523> but simply being able to show something is helpful
09:54:34 <ais523> ooh, I think I just found a bug in nginx
09:54:58 <ais523> according to the specification, example.com/a%2Fb/../c should be equivalent to example.com/c, but nginx interprets it as equivalent to example.com/a/c
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12:01:10 <arseniiv> <ais523> actually, combining circumflex looks fairly good on my computer, even though it's offset <ais523> how does http://nethack4.org/pastebin/82.html look for the people here? => offset for me too; the control character itself is displayed as “DC4” run diagonally ↘ (Firefox on windows)
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13:26:18 <esowiki> [[Archway]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79524&oldid=53673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Changes in Archway2 */ and->or
13:29:52 <esowiki> [[Chris Barker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79525&oldid=63799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) What about Zot?
13:55:32 <fizzie> int-e: One contributing factor is possibly that you can do part 1 without actually reassembling the image.
13:56:00 <fizzie> int-e: That's what I did, and I haven't actually gotten around to part 2 yet, need to do some things before the daylight is all gone.
13:57:15 <fizzie> (Just count the number of matching edges; corner tiles are the ones that have the least.)
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14:02:41 <esowiki> [[Machine code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79526&oldid=74761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Nor
14:02:55 <esowiki> [[Assembly code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79527&oldid=74760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Nro
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14:34:31 <int-e> fizzie: Oh I thought I had tested for that property (no duplicate edges) earlier... apparently I messed up. Makes sense.
14:35:03 <b_jonas> ais523: "with C0 control codes ... just use the corresponding Unicode control picture to represent it / however, I haven't found a satisfactory solution for C1 control codes" => there are control pictures for those as well.
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14:39:25 <b_jonas> or wait... are there? I might be confused
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14:41:59 <b_jonas> hmm no, maybe there aren't. I'm not sure
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14:46:36 <b_jonas> "anything other than C0 and C1 controls is either safe to output literally ... or else is so obviously an error" => but C1 controls are safe to output either literally or ampersane-escaped: that's allowed in both XML 1.0 and XML 1.1, unlike some C0 controls
14:46:59 <b_jonas> I think they're still allowed literally in an XML attribute value
14:49:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, tags definitely shouldn't always break up kerning. that would look ugly, sometimes you want an a or abbr tag for a word without changing the font, and the kerning should be right between words.
14:50:09 <b_jonas> UTF-5? what the heck is that?
14:50:47 <b_jonas> probably even ligatures should be allowed through a tag, but combining characters probably not
14:51:17 <b_jonas> "even more impressively, I tried looking up the IPs for some addresses containing C1 control codes in dig, and it rejected them due to containing invalid characters" => yes, even a lot of non-ascii punctuation is invalid in domain names
14:51:46 <b_jonas> and which ones differ between different versions of the spec for them apparently
14:52:36 <int-e> int-e: So basically, I failed to keep things simple this time. Oh well, it happens.
14:53:18 <b_jonas> see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-03-10.1857.html#d.2011-03-10.1857 where David Madore complains about how he bought a domain name, then it later turned out to be invalid, so the registry refused to register it or unregistered it, which is fine, but then they refused to repay him the money, even as credits
14:58:19 <b_jonas> "in retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include control characters in Unicode at all; Unicode itself should have restricted itself to non-control characters, and control characters should have been specified as part of the encoding not as part of the character repertoire" => um, what actual difference would that make? isn't it just difference in naming?
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14:59:00 <b_jonas> or would that imply that even C1 controls would be invalid in XML because they're not characters? that would be rather annoying
15:04:58 <b_jonas> exactly because of the problem you describe: anyone who outputs user-submitted content in XML format would have to filter out those characters, because XML readers would reject them
15:05:22 <b_jonas> we currently have to do this with either most C0 controls, or at least NUL, depending on whether the reader is XML 1.0 or XML 1.1 reader
15:06:26 <b_jonas> at least some XML readers actually refuse to read � just as specified in the standards
15:15:31 <b_jonas> also, as I learned, in XML attribute values, you must escape newlines, because a literal newline in an attribute value represents a space -- unlike in PCDATA, where it represents a newline. this is stupid, but you have to do it for compatibility with readers.
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15:58:23 <LegionMammal978> int-e: Regarding the twistiness of today's AoC, the first part is actually easier than I expected when writing my program.
15:58:53 <LegionMammal978> As it turns out, there will never be a choice regarding which edge can match to another edge.
15:59:28 <LegionMammal978> Therefore, you only have to find the tiles for which only two other tiles match any of its edges (forwards or in reverse).
16:00:10 <LegionMammal978> In the second part, however, you actually have to determine all of the individual positions and rotations.
16:02:24 <LegionMammal978> Originally, I had constructed a graph of all tiles with common edges, expecting that I'd to enumerate through all of the grid subgraphs.
16:03:33 <LegionMammal978> When I looked at the visualized graph, though, I saw that there was exactly one grid.
16:07:00 <LegionMammal978> b_jonas: I'd imagine that the control-character ranges would be left unassigned, just like most characters outside the BMP.
16:14:04 <b_jonas> LegionMammal978: ok, but I don't see why that would be better than officially assigning them to the ASCII and C1 controls
16:16:50 <LegionMammal978> b_jonas: Nobody ever really uses them for that, though, apart from CR, LF, and TAB. Perhaps they'd have been able to come up with some better use.
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16:24:36 <ais523> <b_jonas> um, what actual difference would that make? isn't it just difference in naming? ← it would mean that each encoding would only need to be able to express control codes that were appropriate for the encoding
16:25:23 <ais523> and that control codes couldn't be passed "as text" from one program to another, you would need a side channel (this would be a good thing IMO because there's no particular reason why two Unicode users would want the same control codes)
16:26:49 <ais523> as a simple example, the string ESC % @ is a standardised control code sequence whose meaning indicates that the following text is not Unicode
16:27:08 <ais523> so it doesn't make much sense for Unicode to be able to encode it, it shouldn't logically be able to appear in a Unicode character stream
16:27:37 <ais523> but, Unicode encodings would want to be able to recognise it so that they know to switch to some other decoding mechanism
16:29:31 <ais523> oh, it's also worth mentioning that one of the three most common whitespace characters, tab, is ambiguous
16:30:01 <ais523> the traditional meaning was "tab to tab stop", and it still means that in most contexts, but in programming contexts the meaning is more like "indentation space" which is much narrower
16:34:29 <LegionMammal978> Really, CR and LF are also ambiguous, considering Windows' CRLF vs. Linux's LF vs. early Mac's CR
16:35:41 <ais523> I think CR to move to the next line is dead at this point
16:35:46 <LegionMammal978> I recall writing a patch that would always fail even after copying from the diff, and it was due to a trailing CR not surviving the copy
16:36:02 <ais523> but LF is still ambiguous between "move down one line" and "move to the start of the next line"
16:37:09 <ais523> that ambiguity got fixed via splitting LF into IND and NEL, neither of which is used very often (NEL is seen on rare occasion, IND almost never)
16:37:17 <ais523> and then made more confusing with the addition of LS
16:38:59 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia says that IND was deprecated in 1988 and removed in 1992, maybe that's why I never see it in practice :-D
16:39:31 <ais523> that said, it is listed in the documentation for the Linux console, and thus presumably still works there
16:47:17 <ais523> gnome-terminal seems to understand both IND and NEL (encoded via either the 7-bit fallback mechanism or UTF-8)
16:48:34 <ais523> LegionMammal978: control codes are used for a range of different purposes, one of which was historically setting the 8-bit-ness of a terminal connection
16:49:32 <ais523> so in order to avoid a problem with trying to send a C1 control (high bit set) over a 7-bit connection, there are digraphs starting with C0 control codes that mimic the C1 control codes
16:49:37 <ais523> sort of like trigraphs in C
16:50:24 <ais523> nowadays this is the normal way to write C1 control codes when you're using them for their control-code usages, because C0 control codes have much more consistent behaviour between platforms
16:50:43 <ais523> (also, it comes to the same number of bytes in UTF-8)
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17:29:56 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79528&oldid=79198 * LegionMammal978 * (-64) /* Implementation */ fixed buffer overflow
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17:44:58 <b_jonas> fungot, how will you commiserate Brexit day?
17:44:58 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i must mention the predominantly mediterranean nature of this issue but it seems right to add, however, is that this act should be considered properly. we also call upon the commission and i personally cannot give my approval with an unequivocal " yes" vote but it seems to me that there have not been able to get here either.
17:58:11 <kmc> i wonder if scotland will become independent from the (formerly) United Kingdom and rejoin the EU
17:58:15 <kmc> it will be funny if brexit leads to the UK losing territory they've controlled since 1707
18:08:55 <fizzie> fungot: I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think Brexit is a predominantly mediterranean issue.
18:08:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i recognize that the impact of the palace killings on the stability of the future financial perspectives, mr colom i naval has suggested, then tell us off for trying to shorten the procedures as much as he talked about parliament's and the council's resolution, i also said in this house are extremely important, the intention of the commission also supports the idea of doubling the european and internationa
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18:16:14 <b_jonas> fungot, how old is Microsoft Bob?
18:16:14 <fungot> b_jonas: it has recently been the case, this is deferred punishment for its lack of harmony with the principles set out in the framework of the federal republic of yugoslavia.
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18:54:38 <kmc> i had fun playing with it when i was young
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19:24:23 <esowiki> [[Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79529&oldid=75392 * Quintopia * (-120) remove dead external link
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19:56:55 <int-e> @tell LegionMammal978 Thanks! fizzie had already pointed out what the shortcut is.
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20:19:44 <ArthurStrong> Hi all. Why denormalized/subnormalized numbers are exists at all? How they are used? (IEEE 754).
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20:34:15 <myname> how else would you add to floats with different exponent?
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20:44:52 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: read the final 4th edition of TAOCP volume 2, it will explain it .... oh wait
20:45:20 <b_jonas> in that case, wait twenty years, then read the final 4th edition of TAOCP volume 2
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20:59:40 <myname> ArthurStrong: so you think if i do 1 + 2 = 1*2^0 + 1*2^1 it would be perfectly fine to just drop the smaller one and return 2 as a result?
21:01:02 <ArthurStrong> myname: but support of denormalized numbers wasn't always there. Somehow, FPUs added numbers before?
21:01:15 <myname> ArthurStrong: well, you _could_ just make it 1*2^0 + 2*2^0 = 3*2^0
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