< 1609718489 20577 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.0 > 1609720728 186917 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Funge-9814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79819&oldid=77549 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+69) 10/* Resources */ See also > 1609720846 857790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Correct Syntax Error14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79820&oldid=53305 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10Header levels < 1609721546 262070 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, the last one was also streaming from home < 1609721730 895351 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1609721773 172270 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609724467 297033 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1609725854 784251 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1609726110 147698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've realized that I'm missing a part of the map... < 1609726148 646571 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't figured out how to go north or south from the room before the ending. < 1609726154 180083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean that? < 1609726264 446195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png I'm missing the exits to the top and the bottom of the kitty < 1609726287 425573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the area I mean, I think. < 1609726395 378233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see exits to the north and south of that room but I don't know how to get to them. < 1609726413 257427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The north one has a lock on it, hmm. < 1609726421 59836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it becomes accessible when you get all the stars? < 1609726424 612441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah that says you need 15 stars < 1609726430 740648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you move near the lock < 1609726472 943161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect I need to work on my missing star first, that leads to a room with a ton of inert cats that look different from what I've seen before < 1609726495 593402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You got all but one stars? < 1609726512 771072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even see how to get to the lock. It has a 1 flag next to it. < 1609726526 652377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 11 stars out of 12 I've seen. < 1609726588 643721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say I'm still at three, but I just realized how to get one. < 1609727006 834587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll do some more later. < 1609727049 200410 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway isn't the map always incomplete before you go into a room? < 1609727111 674841 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm expecting a surprise mechanic < 1609728240 506508 :b4er_!~b4er@91.193.4.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609728311 739348 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.138 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1609728384 712871 :b4er_!~b4er@91.193.4.138 NICK :b4er < 1609729168 812625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's the deal with "A, B |- X, Y" meaning a conjunction on the left and a disjunction on the right? < 1609729269 206002 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is due to how the rules for logic works, they work well and symmetric when that is the case, I think. < 1609729528 289799 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, what inference rule is that? < 1609729542 895836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Since you like SAT... it's a clause, -A \/ -B \/ X \/ Y < 1609729578 693482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, that's what made me think about it. < 1609729593 135968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SAT is like a one-sided thing where everything is on the right of the turnstile. < 1609729605 255581 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually when writing X |- Y left would be context (not conjunction) and right is the conclusion < 1609729653 302927 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A,B |- ... is the same as B,A |- ... but A /\ B is not the same as B /\ A < 1609729733 795643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and the cut rule is resolution < 1609729855 729823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense. < 1609730100 426719 :b4er_!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609730134 511217 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1609730174 482435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b4er_: Right, but the question is how to interpret multiple things in the context vs. in the conclusion. < 1609730209 321676 :b4er_!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, that really depends on the logic < 1609730268 565697 :b4er_!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes you can swap assumptions or drop them, sometimes you can't < 1609730275 546681 :b4er_!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're called structural rules < 1609730395 887595 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there are different kind of logic, some which allow such things (and also duplication) and some don't. < 1609730412 290897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1609730580 965766 :b4er_!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1609730595 520697 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609730598 212456 :b4er_!~b4er@91.193.4.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609730616 169955 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would , not be natural for conjunction on both sides? < 1609730618 492817 :b4er__!~b4er@91.193.4.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609730661 520161 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most people just don't use , on the right side. < 1609730666 415142 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. The way the rules work to allow freely moving them around, it works better the way it is. < 1609730668 45791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when they do, it means something like disjunction. < 1609730731 592606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have rules that let you move things, like zzo38 said, e.g. from "Γ, A |- Δ" to "Γ |- ¬A, Δ" < 1609730957 30846 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idk, that's kind of confusing the only time I've seen , on the rhs was for product types which are like conjunction < 1609731039 73778 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any examples of that? < 1609731201 965095 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at hand no, but I can write you one ^^ < 1609731337 66527 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm skeptical that any logic things use , on the right side of a turnstile to mean conjunction. < 1609731375 112646 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not conjunction but product-type but it's the same really < 1609731674 210089 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh there's kind of a hidden area in that game, maybe that's the real missing bit < 1609732475 327937 :b4er_!~b4er@91.193.4.106 QUIT :Quit: bye! < 1609732479 802850 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 QUIT :Quit: bye! < 1609732484 767924 :b4er__!~b4er@91.193.4.106 QUIT :Quit: bye! < 1609732497 224897 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 JOIN :#esoteric > 1609733383 787249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thief 5* 10New user account > 1609733633 981644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79821&oldid=79813 5* 03Thief 5* (+94) 10Added my name! < 1609734180 780212 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1609735327 574037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* 10moved [[02StupidStackLanguage:Examples10]] to [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]]: Consistency > 1609735338 372579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* 10moved [[02Al Dente examples10]] to [[Al Dente/Examples]]: Consistency > 1609736766 817248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Boner++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79826 5* 03Thief 5* (+4349) 10Create Boner++ page < 1609736995 429666 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1609736995 572083 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boner++ > 1609737036 945880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Boner++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79827&oldid=79826 5* 03Thief 5* (+3) 10change "compiler" to "interpreter" > 1609738897 199817 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Simple translation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79828&oldid=79640 5* 03Ais523 5* (-41) 10/* See also */ unpipe interwiki links; I think people here like to know that the link's going to an external site < 1609740652 576273 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Okay, I'm done. 15 stars collected... < 1609740659 140447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no. < 1609740670 948869 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got back to it. < 1609740674 598277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at 8 stars now. < 1609740736 335406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The room with the two cats and the 5-flag and 2-flag seems pretty tricky. < 1609740850 86897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :final map (spoiler warning): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png < 1609740872 346559 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's easy to cross though :) < 1609740965 629979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, there's a room south of the star in the icy area? < 1609740984 294100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering about that but it was so annoying just to get the star. < 1609741008 763618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1609741020 717229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I try it again getting the star seems easy. < 1609741037 973980 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did something unnecessarily complicated before. < 1609741053 245015 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1609741072 568408 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the year is old enough to drink! < 1609741204 493530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I was trying to get the 5-flag over there. Which is maybe what I need to do. < 1609744705 155977 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1609745163 774844 :vextia!~metalbot@c-73-0-86-197.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609745201 752716 :vextia!~metalbot@c-73-0-86-197.hsd1.fl.comcast.net PART :#esoteric < 1609746385 687071 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1609746415 362433 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Client Quit < 1609746671 686543 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1609749457 792881 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1609749712 790718 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1609750314 520278 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1609751657 179284 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1609754447 517579 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609754931 483996 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609758366 143009 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609758569 407631 :kspalaiologos!~palaiolog@176.221.122.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609758736 525092 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1609759688 407733 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609761715 284793 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609763104 544711 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1609766166 690764 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1609766411 128691 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609767254 723369 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have completed the free demo of the shapez.io game. it fittingly ends with building a rocket, which is probably the hardest shape required up to that point, depending on how you count shapes that are made easier but you can reuse a shape that was already required as one of its components. < 1609767278 567933 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will have to consider buying the non-demo version of the game. < 1609767395 592793 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, shachaf: wait what game is this you're playing? I assumed at first it was still the one with chairs and trees and rocks, but now it seems like it's another puzzle platformer < 1609767514 743833 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/puzzle platformer/block-pushing puzzle/ < 1609768414 677805 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 21:42 int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1 < 1609768418 755879 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think.) > 1609768752 906511 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Boner++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79829&oldid=79827 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+129) 10Cats, s.t. < 1609768772 825058 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1609769105 505479 :LKoen_!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609769245 41867 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1609769346 115999 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1609770085 132404 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1609770422 422184 :Arcorann!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1609771157 148576 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609771507 324609 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bumsakqbscfytjaf QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1609771632 813751 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ubzhkgfajgixbzca JOIN :#esoteric < 1609771670 79865 :kspalaiologos!~palaiolog@176.221.122.174 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1609771926 528827 :LKoen_!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1609773975 876902 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1609773989 578103 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1609774185 379022 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1609774674 715356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, b_jonas: Yes, fizzie got it right. > 1609774849 718704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Cyborg 5* 10New user account < 1609774941 62271 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played 5 Step Steve too... but coming from N Step Steve takes out almost all the surprises. The game logic is pretty much the same except that all flags have a 5 on them. < 1609775075 435606 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about? < 1609775238 123513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/ is extremely useful for answering this type of questions > 1609775762 693652 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79830&oldid=79821 5* 03Cyborg 5* (+223) 10 < 1609777040 478529 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1609778576 763616 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-cmbyynfwnzrwdxod QUIT :Quit: dionys < 1609778603 785395 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-aqixlsxpvnsubcpa JOIN :#esoteric < 1609779898 903975 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1609780031 834667 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: #esoteric sometimes plays puzzle games < 1609780114 429301 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense, some of the esolangs inspire great puzzles too, like what the computational power of some esolang is, possibly with some restrictions < 1609780144 260912 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at those results about brainfuck with a limited constant number of bracket pairs in the program < 1609780172 779143 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck did I just give brainfuck as an example for something? < 1609780357 855291 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class < 1609782022 295205 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2021 < 1609782033 865303 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will take months to get used to < 1609782062 16124 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh < 1609782074 208961 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting EIO... hopefully only a contact error at the USB conenction < 1609782134 806722 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's what it was, whew < 1609782167 292362 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading from an SD card reader < 1609782203 768831 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least tar is kind enough to specifically say "Read error" so I didn't get scared that it was an EIO on my hard disk that I'm writing to < 1609782213 621992 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that you'd get an immediate EIO for that < 1609782214 948422 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1609782396 296548 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, Sonic 1 on Android. < 1609782492 799053 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew < 1609782518 657617 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :platformer adaptions don't work well on android imho. and sonic isn't even a good one to begin with < 1609782568 17463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Watching AGDQ, if it wasn't clear.) < 1609782603 501501 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to imagine it's being played on a controller. < 1609782626 43583 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But looks like they've imported in the shields (at least bubble and lightning) from 3. < 1609782673 307962 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get why it became so popular < 1609783247 973794 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: writing text messages and browsing the web also got popular on tiny touchscreens. how are platformers different? < 1609783262 806221 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :android or apple phone is irrelevant here < 1609783310 193257 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing text messages and browsing aren't inherently tightly timed < 1609783325 538382 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you usually press where you look at those < 1609783332 863568 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: sure, but the input devices are about as bad as for a platformer < 1609783352 337140 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for platformers, you have to do presses somewhere you don't look in a precise time window < 1609783358 151722 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can always assume that the rest of the populace are idiot < 1609783359 120784 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1609783359 901349 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this also removes screen estate < 1609783387 646208 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"press where you look at those" -- I sure don't. I buy non-smart phones that have a non-flat keyboard so that I can type on without looking continuously. < 1609783391 732500 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :keypad < 1609783397 166080 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how so? typing? maybe. browsing? i don't think so. whether i click or i touch doesn't make a big difference < 1609783410 469233 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: not browsing, just typing text messages or short text notes to myself < 1609783434 322246 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for browsing that's probably less relevant, yes < 1609783482 391759 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, keyboards are a weird one for that. there are experimental inputs that don't depend on watching as much < 1609783496 184615 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 8pen/8vim for example < 1609783514 816945 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too used to smartphones to have a justified opinion so i'm going < 1609783574 198594 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1609783589 401430 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used android as my daily driver quite some time < 1609783599 461408 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a tablet, though < 1609783616 436011 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :multitasking is necessary < 1609783716 76712 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dailies are about as unlikely as possible for an irc like this < 1609783721 263394 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :android n windows < 1609783740 997572 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows is more popular here than one might think < 1609783756 859428 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about android/ios preferences, though < 1609783809 526309 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been an android user for about 10 years < 1609783833 995088 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got pretty late to the party. my first android device was the nexus 3 < 1609783851 661438 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was the HTC Evo 4G < 1609783860 712599 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was... i don't remember < 1609783868 850642 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently i have a galaxy fold 2 <3 < 1609783882 408619 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a few pre-Android/iOS smartphones that were varying degrees of terrible < 1609783889 673757 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My first Android device was the (first, 2012) Nexus 7 tablet, and I think it might still remain the only Android device I've bought with my own money. < 1609783900 82976 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the Nokia N800 which was pretty nice, but not actually a phone (I think they made one phone on that platform later) < 1609783911 577705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the N900 on my desk right now. < 1609783925 190670 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :on desktop I have mainly been a Linux user but I switched to Win10 in 2017, kind of on a whim, and switched back late last year when that machine broke < 1609783925 876800 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because I'm meant to wipe any personal stuff out of it while it still works, but haven't gotten around to.) < 1609783942 564422 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was using WSL heavily so it wasn't that much of an adjustment) < 1609783962 196535 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a moto phone < 1609784001 480872 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :moto g3 power or some name like that < 1609784036 61658 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I'm heavilyi biased against smartphone because of the state of android software) < 1609784036 741473 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had several moto gs before < 1609784039 243030 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are nice0 < 1609784041 327541 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see a total of 9 smartphones from where I sit, which is getting pretty ridiculous. < 1609784041 659790 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current phone is a Pixel 3a < 1609784048 622344 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :before that I had a Moto G5+, which I really liked < 1609784051 475775 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good price for what they deliver < 1609784054 996796 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Pixel 3a is also good < 1609784067 8342 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only opinion i have on much tech is "works for me" < 1609784087 151304 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am still a bit confused about phones without dual sim < 1609784089 662612 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use an hp laptop with win10 on it by the way, that's where i'm typing in this irc from < 1609784092 111016 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my needs from a phone are pretty modest, so even a "budget" brand like Moto is more than enough phone for me, as long as the build quality is good (which it is) < 1609784126 558888 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean... that "budget" phone has 8 cores and can capture 4k video at 30 fps < 1609784129 64800 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a little ridiculous < 1609784132 740245 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone cares to listen i've popped in and out of this irc a few times (if you've ever seen another "andrew" user here that's probs me) < 1609784167 703840 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have little in the way of complaints for my moto, i hold it dear < 1609784196 17792 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used ot have a lenovo tablet then the charger port went poof < 1609784197 803059 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1609784356 927052 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yea < 1609784363 48586 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :*<|:-) < 1609784395 78746 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 9 smartphones from where you sit => I'm suddenly reminded of an on-site mall shop for one of the mobile phone providers here, where the vendors only have touchscreen tablets in front of them, without a keyboard, and typing my home address and every other alphanumeric data of customers on those touchscreen. that's what I saw when I went there to migrate away from them. < 1609784401 874689 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i did to find moto g was to go on a site, filter for dualsim and sd, order by price, take the first non-chinese brand < 1609784442 582184 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :my aunt and uncle bought le moto < 1609784444 534091 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :migrating a phone number away from them normally shouldn't require their help, by design, but that assumes that they don't pretend to not know my home address from when they were required to ask me several times before < 1609784542 416847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 4 of those 9 have SIM cards. And it probably would only be 2/9, if it wasn't for how international SMS routing seems to be just a mess. < 1609784571 115821 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, it'd probably be 2/x where x<9, because that's one of the reasons there's so many phones.) < 1609784590 929902 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: international SMS routing? what? < 1609784601 33159 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also how many of them have more than one SIM card? < 1609784606 404040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :None. < 1609784627 224077 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't assume SMS will work between an arbitrary pair of mobile operators, if those operators are in different countries. < 1609784641 905241 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1609784646 317643 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain SMS? < 1609784651 355802 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, plain SMS. < 1609784653 8935 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I did assume that < 1609784654 108411 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, my bank in Finland is unable to send the required confirmation text messages to my "primary" UK operator. < 1609784660 348043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you shouldn't. < 1609784669 654178 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's definitely mobile operators that is, I don't assume it will work for all landline phone operators < 1609784684 586524 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works mostly, but there's arbitrary pairs of operators where it just doesn't work. < 1609784688 735193 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1609784701 127119 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd 2365 seems relevant to sms < 1609784712 299594 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's weird, too, but it seems to be true, and nobody takes responsibility for it. < 1609784751 848049 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I also used to assume that when an on-site vendor with a POS terminal accepts Mastercard credit cards, then they accept Mastercard credit cards regardless the bank backing the account. < 1609784752 23619 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :sms is the zombie of messaging services < 1609784757 505452 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the world is more complicated than this < 1609784782 184262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately most of the big operators in the SMS "two-factor" business seem to have figured out how to deliver messages to anywhere (certainly the likes of Google/Apple/Steam etc. do), but I imagine banks have a relatively small % of international customers. < 1609784806 433938 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I see < 1609784885 517409 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I am the customer of a large bank, and they have customer service phone numbers at all three big mobile phone operators, which helps customers who can call only one of them for free, but this is exceptional, most taxis and such only have multiple numbers with one provider < 1609784994 992682 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't they make a number free for all numbers? < 1609785004 461954 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bank in the US is unable to reliably send 2FA texts to my US number < 1609785008 141670 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just cause they're incompetent < 1609785014 789407 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as banks are < 1609785035 779072 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1609785046 395154 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :any dogshit startup can do it < 1609785052 537622 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :any twilio customer can do it (including me) < 1609785053 95739 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this bank also has walk-in customer offices and ATMs like everywhere, so this sort of thing is right in their profile; other banks instead have few walk-in offices or ATMs and instead make it cheap to use other ATMs < 1609785059 773100 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this hueg bank can't < 1609785068 710516 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i went to fintechs semi-voluntairily and i don't look back < 1609785076 668666 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: because the bank would have to pay for the calls to free phone numbers < 1609785086 715863 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cause they want to do it in some "secure" way but at the end of the day it's still a plain old SMS when I (eventually, sometimes) receive it < 1609785111 117337 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: and that's more expensive than 3 different numbers and the overhead for that? < 1609785112 188899 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :banks are full of old people in upper management, probs why < 1609785126 364344 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: they do have an internet form to call you back, in which case they pay for the call, but that incentivizes customers to be on call with them at off-times when their customer support isn't overloaded < 1609785195 912775 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: do you know how much time customers can spend on the menu maze and 30 minutes of waiting with hold music until an operator is available? < 1609785213 322098 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but probably either of these is cheap compared to having all those walk-in offices < 1609785249 390189 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ridiculous < 1609785269 560448 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1609785325 134022 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe customers just waste their phone customer support time slightly less if you have to either pay for it or do something nontrivial like ask for a callback on the website < 1609785383 31326 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like when you pay a very small amount of money to buy a tabloid paper magazine: it's not that that covers their costs, it's the ads that give them income, but if they gave the papers avay for any cheaper, people would use them as toilet paper and package padding material without even glancing at those ads < 1609785415 38303 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, there are lots of free magazines too for that, but exactly for that reason they probably profit less from the ads < 1609785467 348659 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use these free papers to peel tomatoes on, or occasionally other similar stuff. I throw away the ones with glossy paper immediately though, because they're less suitable for that. < 1609785528 746495 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: perhaps all the banks other than the two that try to have walk-in offices everywhere do have free phone numbers < 1609785568 457919 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen ads in the Tube (pre-Covid) about these new "virtual" banks that don't do offices. < 1609785647 370189 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, those exist too < 1609785703 569023 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :how old is #esoteric < 1609785715 302541 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am tempted to open an account at tomorrow just because they have a wooden visa < 1609785735 805390 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrew_esolangs: we have logs going back to 18 years (2002-12), and the channel is said to be somewhat older, but I'm not sure, I wasn't there < 1609785773 508597 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not much older. < 1609785776 694281 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got involved with esolanging a few years ago although i've never made anything of use < 1609785780 501264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: we're so eco friendly, we have to cut down trees for our credit cards to make up for it? < 1609785831 960281 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they are eco friendly, though. the paid account uses your fees for co2 compensation < 1609785845 646136 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I already have a problem where the plastic bank card gets accidentally almost perforated by continuous misuse and bending in my pocket, a wooden card would be worse. (admittedly that's a debit card, not an embossed credit card) < 1609785862 337708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I looked up an exact-enough birthday a while back, to figure out when we should celebrate. It was in December 2002 anyway. < 1609785874 331651 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: sounds like a bad wallet < 1609785885 587285 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1609785900 571043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can derive a reasonably good upper and lower bound from the mailing list archives.) < 1609785901 585657 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: it's happened even with the previous wallet. it's not the wallet's fault, anything would suffer in the front packet of my jeans < 1609785911 664635 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the jeans wants to go around my leg < 1609785935 855984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well you could get a stiff wallet (surely that's a thing) but it would be uncomfortable < 1609785956 208673 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i have some form of these "metal plates with a rubber" wallets, i am pretty sure stuff in there will not bend < 1609785982 660659 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: isn't the exact date in the MODE reply after the logbot joins, in the raw log from before freenode replaced their software? < 1609785985 155042 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not at all, those are pretty slim in comparison < 1609786022 545626 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: replacement cards are cheap enough, I'm not going to pay to not bend the card. they should just be as resilient as cash. < 1609786044 502520 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: besides, it takes almost as much time as the card would already expire when this happens < 1609786048 990187 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not an immediate effect < 1609786055 328895 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often I don't even have to replace it < 1609786058 130957 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine by me. just saying i never had this problem ever < 1609786093 208804 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there are metal credit cards < 1609786139 612851 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: again, this is a debit card. I don't know if it happens with credit cards. < 1609786165 922154 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those different cards? < 1609786190 955118 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have been, but I don't think we have actual raw logs from that far in the past. < 1609786200 784033 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, maybe we don't have *raw* logs old enough < 1609786205 399626 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1609786224 185274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2003-01-18-raw.txt is the oldest codu file, and it doesn't have anything useful in it. < 1609786234 581713 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only have debit cards and one of those has those annoying letters < 1609786264 581443 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: yes, credit cards are embossed. it's not quite a full match, I think there are non-embossed credit cards or embossed debit cards or something. the point is, my physical debit card and physical debit card are clearly physically different. the credit card is thinner if you don't count the embossing. < 1609786301 241684 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I remember someone saying their recently renewed credit card was non-embossed. < 1609786308 901735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe they're giving up on that finally. < 1609786317 552581 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020 < 1609786380 909468 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think embossed credit cards had any use outside of the use a few decades ago < 1609786394 489814 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: strange, because irc servers send that after the NAMES reply when you join a channel < 1609786397 465398 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1609786436 354001 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: would make sense. if only they also made ones with no magnetic strip. < 1609786447 968142 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only ever seen the embossing used on airplanes < 1609786457 453814 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where they do that because don't have internet connectivity < 1609786500 127560 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1609786531 36751 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1609786533 222491 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609786556 487685 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that kinda makes sense, the card i have with embossing is more travel-focussed than the one without < 1609786675 963147 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think that happens anymore, because they just have internet on those airplanes. not necessarily broadband internet that they sell to customers or anything, just enough internet for a card transaction, which isn't much. < 1609786695 750429 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or phone connectivity or whatever < 1609786699 435342 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily internet < 1609787075 458064 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you do a magstripe transaction offline too < 1609787080 924646 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it has the same information the embosser gives you < 1609787100 909196 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can't do an EMV transaction offline < 1609787107 460534 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it will be forever before they get rid of the magstripes < 1609787118 423106 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it gives somewhat more than the < 1609787120 825567 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :USA still hasn't implemented EMV properly < 1609787123 39228 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :than the embosser < 1609787135 904090 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, you could probably do a magstripe transaction, so I dunno < 1609787140 889721 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok, but it should still be sufficient for an offline (processed when the plane lands) transaction < 1609787151 433094 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my recollection of buying stuff on a plane is that they used a handheld terminal < 1609787164 578840 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure whether it was EMV or magstripe < 1609787178 788057 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how it works really < 1609787191 751144 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last (and maybe only?) time I did an embosser transaction was buying some meat from a sketchy guy in a van in 2013 < 1609787194 896066 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :long story < 1609787209 567223 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was the meat at least good? < 1609787209 801747 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only used the embossing thing on a boat. < 1609787212 791898 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was okay < 1609787237 486619 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my credit union debit card (issued last year or maybe 2019) is not embossed < 1609787247 233217 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my megabank debit card (issued last year) is < 1609787255 41752 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't have any credit cards anymore < 1609787285 523048 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :both have EMV, the megabank also has NFC, before that it had EMV but not NFC, before that it had NFC but not EMV < 1609787293 956750 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of embarrassing how much of a mess all this is < 1609787308 74150 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chicago's public transit Ventra card is also a MasterCard, which I found weird. < 1609787315 248244 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the US there's still like a 1 in 4 chance when you encounter an EMV terminal that the EMV is mysteriously broken and you have to use magstripe < 1609787317 354405 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is EMV the chip thing? < 1609787322 972000 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1609787323 483213 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know, i disabled magstripe on my card < 1609787343 52965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got one of those on a trip because the deposit ($5?) was less than what you saved by using the card, but they've been a bit spammy afterwards. < 1609787353 817410 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: how is it a mess? it's just progress of technology, from embossed to magnetic to chip to proxy < 1609787364 830264 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the details are a mess, yes < 1609787368 351970 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the general idea isn't < 1609787375 672365 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It finally expires (expired?) now, and they said they'd send a replacement, but they've got a really weird address for me, because the forms were incredibly US-centric. < 1609787379 668985 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the protocol for paying for a sit-down meal at a restaurant in the USA is still ridiculous < 1609787385 41241 :b4er!~b4er@91.193.4.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1609787394 6277 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unchanged from the very start of credit cards < 1609787417 889224 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what is it? < 1609787419 234190 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: how does it proceed? < 1609787424 830974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You give your card to them, they go away with it, then they come back with a receipt, which you then scribble a tip on and leave? < 1609787434 188625 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :you give your card to the waiter, they take it in back and do god knows what with it, bring you the card and a receipt, you write the amount you want to pay (including tip) on the receipt and then leave, and trust that they key it in correctly < 1609787438 30392 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1609787446 361265 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've always found that real weird. < 1609787455 655320 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of, say, bringing you a portable EMV terminal to the table < 1609787456 6700 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they still do that? < 1609787457 866284 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1609787459 249936 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they stopped by now < 1609787461 608755 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think is how it works in civilized countries < 1609787472 199026 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were still doing that on my last US visit. < 1609787472 849146 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that banks also don't allow that < 1609787478 161474 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1609787487 617682 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't happen here < 1609787496 493034 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will probably be decades more before that changes < 1609787506 569432 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point it's an ingrained part of American culture < 1609787513 910311 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would confuse so many people to do it "right" < 1609787556 58090 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(American tipping laws and culture are also dumb, but that's another matter) < 1609787577 40325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't happen here either, but bill-splitting works differently here. The waiter comes around with the machine, and in turn everyone gives the waiter a card and says "take £X from here", except the last one pays whatever remains. < 1609787591 371931 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did get confused by protocol at least once, because in Sweden (and I think the UK and Geramny etc) they use portable terminals where you type in how much tip you want to pay, whereas here they don't have that, instead if you want to pay tip via card reader you tell the waiter or taxi driver how much you want to pay before they hand you the terminal, and they just enter the increased amount to the card < 1609787591 701814 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually remember how it usually goes in Finland, but I don't think it's worked like that. < 1609787597 389472 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminal in first place < 1609787609 96566 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, I do remember: you just tell the waiter up front how you like to pay, and they bring you separate bills. < 1609787640 165806 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah here you can sometimes ask them to split the bill < 1609787648 958043 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but different restaurants may have policies on when they will or won't do this < 1609787653 468603 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's kind of a pain for them < 1609787656 13636 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: couldn't they fix that without incompatbility by like, if you give the waiter the card, they still take it and just put it into the slot of the terminal in front of you and then hand it back after they get the confirmation? < 1609787665 500754 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :separately you can also pay one bill with multiple cards or a combination of cards and cash < 1609787672 879567 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that is pretty universally accepted, but i rarely do it < 1609787686 215980 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easier to have one person card the whole meal and everyone else gives that person cash or venmo or something < 1609787709 146163 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :at my university the rule was that the youngest non-math-major had to calculate how much everyone owes after a meal < 1609787719 169077 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because math majors can't do arithmetic) < 1609787726 190572 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was pretty much always youngest < 1609787731 933441 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did claim to be a math major for one term < 1609787737 664323 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: heh < 1609787740 751302 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1609788037 421012 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :this conversation reminded me of an esoteric forgotten-technology thing < 1609788071 421721 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that once upon a time, Bloom filters computed from numbers of stolen credit cards were transmitted alongside FM radio broadcasts < 1609788078 596257 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://i.imgur.com/gicQK2W.png https://i.imgur.com/VvBK3fz.jpg < 1609788102 496351 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps only as a trial in one city... i haven't found much information besides this one article in a trade publication from the 90s < 1609788187 283857 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another unrelated forgotten-tech thing: at least in Finland, magazines used to print bar codes in the TV program listings, that could be used to set up a VCR to record that program, by reading the bar code using a scanner in the corner of the VCR's remote. < 1609788194 511585 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course at one time merchants were issued physical books of canceled card numbers, but that doesn't scale at all < 1609788207 277209 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think they might have had at least two incompatible systems for those.) < 1609788210 419108 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they moved to electronic networks for verifying the cards < 1609788268 143188 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those were kind of expensive so the FM thing was meant to reduce load on them, by caching a data structure (article doesn't say, but probably a bloom filter) with each merchant so that many cards could be accepted offline and only some would need to be checked in realtime < 1609788311 639754 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole notion of credit cards is still a weird one to me < 1609788326 345785 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea that you are borrowing money just by making purchases < 1609788342 718164 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously arises from the limitations of pre-electronic commerce < 1609788373 28351 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sort of became a raison d'etre of the cards themselves < 1609788399 408735 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: jesus, so that's what they did about people stereotypically being unable to program vcrs? crazy, I haven't heard of that < 1609788436 398831 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somehow my willingness to "borrow" $5 to buy a sandwich when I already have $5 and will immediately pay it back is used to assess my trustworthiness to borrow $1,500,000 to buy a house < 1609788462 727491 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also my trustworthiness to rent an apartment or get a job or do other things that have nothing to do with borrowing money < 1609788470 563275 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that's another of those weird things the US does, yes < 1609788481 702427 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and really credit score is not about trustworthiness at all; it's about how much money banks can expect to make from lending to you < 1609788493 676458 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the "perfect" customer who only borrows money when she really needs to and pays it back as soon as possible gets a crappy score < 1609788495 28782 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: but don't worry, we Europeans do other weird things instead < 1609788502 503170 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's more profitable to people who will end up oweing more interest < 1609788504 493459 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yeah, something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code for the manually typed-in version, but I'm pretty sure there was also a barcode form. < 1609788525 934671 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but somehow "profitability as a customer for consumer debt" has become our general purpose score of whether you are a good and trustworthy person < 1609788529 258093 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think I've seen the printed version < 1609788532 176600 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says something dark about our society < 1609788545 265641 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: printed in newspapers that is, I haven't used a VCR that does it < 1609788552 894530 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that VCR thing is cool < 1609788562 643671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We didn't have a fancy enough VCR to have that, but either a friend or a relative did, and I always found it real impressive somehow. < 1609788568 875959 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it really doesn't do much. < 1609788574 414121 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only ever programmed a VCR the obvious way, by entering the day of week and hour and minute of start time and hour and minute of end time < 1609788584 710209 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code < 1609788608 875090 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I found as well, and ShowView rings a bell, but it doesn't mention bar codes. < 1609788623 133883 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also found https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-12-11-8704020115-story.html but that's got a static list of bar codes. < 1609788623 180904 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I do vaguely recall seeing these "PlusCodes" in TV Guide < 1609788629 694454 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure that we ever had a VCR which knew about them < 1609788635 862635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm I don't recall barcodes. < 1609788643 358708 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't remember seeing barcodes < 1609788649 158595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1609788666 603413 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: fizzie already linked to that < 1609788696 597355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I dreamed that bit. But I still have a vivid recollection of a scanner in the corner of a remote, hmm. < 1609788705 600117 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got reminded of this whole deal after seeing a video on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat < 1609788706 282558 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I missed it while I was ranting about the credit-industrial complex < 1609788818 403407 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Credit scores are a thing in the UK as well, incidentally. < 1609788823 958615 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nah, the barcode scanner in remote totally sounds like something that was probably real depsite that it sounds stupid to us < 1609788838 643590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And apparently what you do with your credit cards affects your chances of getting a mortgage approved here. < 1609788895 900113 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, in the sense that if you borrow money from your credit cards then don't pay it back, then they don't give you other types of loans. that's a thing here, it's sensible. it's just not all the american system has. < 1609789035 260271 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gotten the implication it goes one step further here, and isn't just that you need to avoid "bad" things, you need to actively try to do enough "good" things that end up in the credit agency databases. < 1609789044 730543 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Finland it's more how you describe.) < 1609789079 380969 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the other weird thing is that the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you the "chargeback and fraud protection" part < 1609789081 807611 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well it's not only about not paying back, it's also to stop you from borrowing acceptible amounts of money from each of multiple different agents such that together you borrow too much money < 1609789082 985873 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, same in the US < 1609789092 648621 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my credit score is mediocre because I haven't owned or used a credit card in years < 1609789096 892430 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't like to play their stupid games < 1609789101 231859 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, I see < 1609789104 234883 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I know the details, other than having read a few "tips how to manage your credit score" articles a while back.) < 1609789110 480611 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :my wife's score is much better because she has one open card that she uses a few times a year to keep it active < 1609789113 497089 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very stupid < 1609789128 848917 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of this should at all predict our ability to service a large loan like a home mortgage < 1609789165 453833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd kind of like to know what my score is, but it seems like it would take a little bit of a hassle to find out. < 1609789187 201050 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-225.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: and on the other hand, the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you that service providers often take more money than you owe them as a precaution and then return the money you didn't use up much later < 1609789190 73902 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a prediction the banks are also bad at, or indeed deliberaly give loans to people who can't pay, and then get bailed out by the government when this gets them into trouble) < 1609789203 408010 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah that can happen too < 1609789253 46349 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, if you don't use a credit card "enough" there's a penalty to your credit score < 1609789273 646643 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the credit agencies keep getting hacked and leaking everyone's personal info < 1609789278 209155 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is another reason i hate this stupid system < 1609790863 279380 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1609793982 161695 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 JOIN :#esoteric > 1609794972 317613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ddj231 5* 10New user account < 1609796209 488206 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.1.35.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1609796335 262310 :b4er!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 JOIN :#esoteric < 1609796472 674138 :b4er!~b4er@2a02:aa16:3a80:1900:5f0f:a23e:4628:9051 QUIT :Client Quit < 1609797726 908917 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1609798895 170220 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/ < 1609798962 526274 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1609799095 905475 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric < 1609799099 254634 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1609800744 798156 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that US credit score system sounds like a pyramid < 1609800778 463758 :andrew_esolangs!6d5dc851@109-93-200-81.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's wonderful what never reading the logs can do to make finding out of context quotes easier < 1609800781 493756 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you are shit if you aren't yet on a higher level than 1 or 2 in a cash flow < 1609800893 247697 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a huge gap between the technologies that banks are using right now and the datamining science is at now < 1609801018 443429 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now with network and calculation technologies being improved every year will make banks able to throw out the 1950 legacy code and hardware and catch up with new stuff < 1609801057 481254 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the financial control will change dramatically in the near future < 1609801310 174532 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1609802171 759924 :LKoen!~LKoen@174.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”