00:00:13 <int-e> and the shader code is included in the html[1~[3~[3~[3~[3~
00:00:53 <arseniiv> thanks for company as always. I should be active in the channel in earlier hours
00:00:53 <arseniiv> what did you write originally?
00:02:58 <arseniiv> also do you maybe know any tutorial how to stop being afraid of modern JS and write neat little browser things like a sound generator which uses FFT. Oh. FFT on JS. I better un-ask that entire thing back
00:03:06 <int-e> oh I wrote the text, but then I wanted to edit something... the [1~... stuff is all VT100 keyboard codes minus the escapes
00:04:20 <int-e> (I was lagging (yes, in 2021) and pressed 'return' and irssi somehow stops interpreting keys when it sees a return in the same packet, or something like that)
00:05:20 <arseniiv> oh well. Anyway have a good time of morning!
00:05:22 <int-e> And no, I can't really help with modern JS... I've not progressed beyond fairly simple self-contained code.
00:05:41 <int-e> So anything that would involve libraries... I don't know anything about.
00:05:52 <arseniiv> I’m just afraid of JS because it’s inherently badly designed :(
00:06:08 <int-e> oh I think it's not so terrible
00:06:41 <int-e> the DOM gives me nightmares, JS is just a relatively straightforward prototype based language... note that's a few versions back
00:08:00 <int-e> Recently they've changed to something that is closer to classes and are adding modern stuff like closures. And then they're transpiling it to something browsers can actually run, or so. And while you're doing that, why not add types? So you get stuff like TypeScript.
00:08:08 <int-e> All of which I know exists but haven't touched.
00:08:40 <zzo38> There is a class block now, although I still think the prototype-based inheritance is better, in my opinion.
00:10:15 <int-e> arseniiv: Regardless, I'd disagree that it was badly designed :P You just have to realize that it's a distinct programming paradigm from the usual class-based OO. And yes, it's mostly untyped and fairly dynamic so you can get yourself into a terrible mess very easily.
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01:37:30 <nakilon> I now wonder how did I know about that Minsky CVE report before it got to this channel
01:41:30 <nakilon> ah, https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/
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03:25:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Google mirror]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82868 * New Army * (+24) Created page with "Where is the google logo"
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05:24:17 <HackEso> fraymumocoin nietcoin thracoin castepcoin anotcoin hackcoin evicecoin boolfscocoin gibucoin bullcoin thaifcoin blangtoncoin sumacoin ttyrnetcoin flagecoin vamusslcoin bucrccoin novcoin verthicoin scequarencoin
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12:20:07 <arseniiv> int-e: hm it seems both firefox and chrome don’t want to load a local moebius.png
12:26:24 <fizzie> file:/// can definitely be like that when it comes to loading resources.
12:26:32 <int-e> But right... I remember vaguely that I set up a local webserver.
12:26:45 <int-e> Because battling the client became too hard. It's been a while :P
12:27:04 <fizzie> Yeah. I tend to go with `python3 -m http.server 8000` for playing around with HTML locally.
12:27:26 <fizzie> (It defaults to just serving the current directory.)
12:27:53 <int-e> I have apache2 *and* lighttpd running, isn't that fun :)
12:28:45 <fizzie> I do have an nginx instance running as well, but it would require either configuring or remembering where its document root is, the Python thing is easier for one-offs. I've got the command aliased as `serve_http`.
12:29:21 <int-e> "remember where the document root is" <-- ~/public_html is good enough ;)
12:29:45 <int-e> but eh, we're firmly in personal quirks territory.
12:31:04 <arseniiv> I see an error in the console: WebGL warning: tex(Sub)ImageD: Cross-origin elements require CORS.
12:31:46 <int-e> arseniiv: if you figure out how to provide a HTTP header with file://...
12:32:13 <fizzie> Probably you can't, anyway. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/CORS/Errors/CORSRequestNotHttp
12:32:31 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Yeah. I tend to go with `python3 -m http.server 8000` for playing around with HTML locally. => oh, that should come in handy!
12:32:34 <int-e> Also, disabling cors seems to have no effect, so I suspect there's another hurdle down the road.
12:33:25 <fizzie> Just to be clear, `python3 -m http.server 8000` may not be the best idea if you have untrusted local users and/or no netfilter rules or such restricting incoming connections. :)
12:33:27 <int-e> sorry, s/have[4~not help/ no effect/
12:33:43 <int-e> sorry, s/have no effect/not help/
12:34:21 <fizzie> You should've had the second s/// to fix the first one, they get more amusing that way.
12:36:20 <b_jonas> if a language has easy syntax for a sort of string literal that isn't an expression that gives a string, but is just printed to the debug console when it's executed, what do you call that? "debug literal"? "debug comment"?
12:36:50 <b_jonas> the program can't otherwise access it, eg. can't take its length or index into it
12:37:01 <arseniiv> <fizzie> they get more amusing that way. => I did that with asterisk version a while ago
12:37:16 <b_jonas> but it's a literal in that most characters are interpreted verbatim in it in the source code
12:37:34 <b_jonas> as in passed to the debug console
12:37:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I’d went with debug literal, looks transparent
12:38:24 <int-e> fizzie: fortunately, the first s/// didn't match anything :P
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12:40:33 <int-e> Oh, toggling the privacy.file_unique_origin setting in Firefox *does* work. (Setting name from fizzie's link.)
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12:41:40 <int-e> (But I won't make that permamnent.)
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13:09:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82871 * Sanscicondos * (+243) Created page with "==Bug Reports== ===Know Bugs As of Version [Alpha 1.3]=== *If a character or string is assigned to an integer only variable, which all variables in Cheese Squared are right n..."
13:09:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82872&oldid=82871 * Sanscicondos * (+1)
13:10:33 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82873&oldid=82870 * Sanscicondos * (+14) /* Bug Reports */
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14:13:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, not only two ends of a line, but a lot more missing points outside them. the projective plane is much more important to understand the structure of the hyperbolic plane than to understand the Euclidean plane, because there are much more real points missing.
14:14:35 <b_jonas> of course it helps if you have a whole euclidean/hyperbolic space so you can see a euclidian/hyperbolic plane in it projectively
14:16:32 <arseniiv> b_jonas: erm I wouldn’t say they miss any points, just that they go two separate directions each on each side, instead of one
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14:47:16 <b_jonas> fungot, can you be comfortable with tricks of light?
14:47:17 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, firstly, it will have a board. you are quite right to tick off the progress of the agreement are now fewer in number but better equipped administratively and extended by means of their own quality control systems and provides for possibilities of appropriate action in the short term? a few years there has been a long time thinking about where the roots of the evil. we are aware, on 9 april for a deferment
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15:10:12 <fizzie> Is that a Hitchhiker's reference to the bit about Hactar?
15:11:32 <fizzie> "'I have nothing to offer you by way of hospitality,' said Hactar faintly, 'but tricks of the light. It is possible to be comfortable with tricks of the light, though, if that's all you have.'"
15:16:08 <arseniiv> what part is it from? Though I read only a translation, and binged, so it all clumped together and is quite almost all forgotten now
15:18:08 <arseniiv> BTW about hyperbolic conspiracy: I know how to call hyp. translations: boosts! Once again physics solves the question. Now we can be sure that we mean them and not euclidean translations, in one simple word
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15:33:25 <fizzie> I remember the parts mostly because we had an IRC game on our channel that pasted a random (three-line?) quote from one of the books, and gave a point to the person who replied fastest with the number 1-5 denoting the correct book.
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15:34:28 <fizzie> Although there's a few absolutely identical bits that were kind of a scow for that game. Specifically, the intro of at least books 1 and 4.
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15:41:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: do you play that with Harry Potter too? there are a lot of quotes I had difficulty finding.
15:42:13 <fizzie> Nah, this was on #douglasadams over in IRCnet (a dead channel now), so it wouldn't have been on-topic.
15:42:59 <b_jonas> I didn't play that as a game, more like often people gave answers on https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with Harry Potter quotes but no specific reference, and I tried to figure out where they came from so I can label them with the book and chapter number
15:43:39 <b_jonas> oh, and at one point I found out that there's one difference in the chapter division of LotR between the original and the Hungarian translation, so you have to be careful with chapter numbers there
15:44:45 <arseniiv> int-e: try this one someday: https://i.postimg.cc/qvv5SpVG/moebius-acid1.png IMO looks cool too, watching right now
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15:56:24 <arseniiv> ah, I think one can embed a free group on n letters into an nD hyperbolic space isometry group O⁺(1, n). This is scary
15:56:45 <arseniiv> that other group I mentioned was a factor of this one I think
15:57:22 <int-e> can't you do that with affine maps?
15:57:28 <b_jonas> arseniiv: embed as just a group, which isn't surprising, or like embed a discrete group as a topological group, which is slightly more surprising but I think it's still true?
15:57:37 <int-e> isometries in the plane, really
15:57:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: basically you can just have a tree of triply-ideal triangles
15:58:21 <b_jonas> or triply ideal polygons of n-1 sides if you wish
15:58:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm what topology is on a free group? I thought discrete so then it wouldn’t add anything
15:58:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: discrete, but it adds a constraint to the embedding
15:59:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: otherwise it would be too easy to construct an embedding, even to the additive groups of reals, by choosing basis elements that are linearly independent over the rationals
16:01:00 <int-e> arseniiv: I mean if you pick n different centers and n angles of rotations randomly I'd expect to get a free group almost certainly.
16:01:03 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> or triply ideal polygons of n-1 sides if you wish => yeah, the partition by corresponding planes and hypercycles looks like that
16:01:27 <b_jonas> well, the triply ideal polygon tiling might only embed a free semigroup
16:01:44 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how exactly to embed a free group on n symbols
16:01:59 <b_jonas> but I expect it's also possible
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16:03:24 <b_jonas> (I'm required to nitpick my own statements too, not only other people's, rather than wait for the other nitpicking algebraists later in the day when the channel has more traffic)
16:03:48 <arseniiv> <int-e> arseniiv: I mean if you pick n different centers and n angles of rotations randomly I'd expect to get a free group almost certainly. => oh, interesting. Then I think I came to the question b_jonas stated, about topology, surely we can endow the free group with some topology which wouldn’t be preserved when going to rotation-induced group. Hm or not
16:04:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, the discrete topology
16:05:12 <b_jonas> which means you want an embedding whose range doesn't have any accumulation point
16:05:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: take n orthogonal lines, have each symbol to correspond to a translation along each of the lines, large enough to make all this work
16:05:35 <oerjan> . o O ( technically i'm an analyst [sp?] not an algebraist. )
16:06:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: um, this is for the isometry group of what dimension of hyperbolic space? I assumed a 2-plane but maybe I didn't pay attention
16:06:49 <oerjan> is this about amenable group because there totally was a part about that in my PhD
16:07:04 <b_jonas> then I guess you can embed at least a free group on O(n) symbols into it
16:07:12 <b_jonas> I'm not sure about n-1 symbols
16:07:20 <arseniiv> we should be able to embed larger free groups on k symbols through their embedding in 2-symbol free group though?
16:07:49 <arseniiv> I don’t remember how does one do that, like a ↦ a, b ↦ ab, c ↦ abb?..
16:08:23 <b_jonas> is there such a thing for free groups, not just for free semigroups?
16:08:26 <arseniiv> I was shocked when I learned you can do that and that these groups are still not isomorphic. I even have forgot what’s the matter
16:09:20 <arseniiv> it’s very alien to me. Group theory is a conspiracy!
16:09:41 <int-e> arseniiv: yes, that ab^k thing should work.
16:10:06 <int-e> and if that somehow miraculously fails, ab^ka will certainly do the trick.
16:10:40 <arseniiv> BTW we may blame octonions for some or all of sporadic groups, but can we blame complex numbers for non-Möbius conformal transformations of a 2-plane, and if so, for what things could we blame quaternions?
16:10:58 <b_jonas> yeah, in that case you can probably also embed any free group of finitely many generators into isomorphisms of the hyperbolic 2-plane, based on a tiling with quadrangles with all vertices ideal
16:11:27 <arseniiv> int-e: at least I don’t remember seeing how to prove it works, if it is
16:11:29 <int-e> that one fails, duh. abba a^-1b^-1a^-1 abba = abbba.
16:11:55 <int-e> so hmm, needs work.
16:12:08 <b_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Infinite-order_square_tiling
16:12:34 <int-e> ba b^-1 = baa a^-1b^-1 is a problem for ba^k
16:13:35 <arseniiv> . o O ( the sequel of the game was named b a^-1 b a is you )
16:14:30 <int-e> Next candidate: a^kba^k
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16:15:17 <int-e> And that should do the trick.
16:15:55 <b_jonas> I hope this doesn't get as difficult as embedding to Incident
16:18:15 <oerjan> if you can embed 3 into 2, you can recurse, at least
16:18:22 <oerjan> (in case there's still trouble)
16:20:24 <b_jonas> I think you can just embed a free group on n symbols directly to hyperbolic isomorphism using a tiling with ideal 2*n sided polygons
16:23:37 <oerjan> . o O ( and then you can prove banach-tarski in hyperbolic space )
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16:25:40 <oerjan> ( that's more or less what "non-amenable group" means )
16:28:43 <zzo38> If you cannot provide HTTP headers with a file: URL then perhaps the problems that causes should be something to be fixed when making a new web browser program.
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16:35:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, that's sort of like how you can fit two filled horocycles into a single horocycle, with a triply ideal triangle remaining, and all horocycles are isomorphic
16:35:24 <b_jonas> it's trickier if you don't want any piece to remain
16:35:40 <b_jonas> but not by too much I think
16:37:44 <b_jonas> you know how some digital washing machines or similar home appliances have a children's lock, where you have to hold a button, or two adjacent buttons, for a second to unlock the button pad, right?
16:39:36 <b_jonas> do these still work on small children? I sort of feel like the current generation of toddlers that grow up on smartphones will easily know that they have to long press the one or two buttons marked with the smiley in lock icon, so the locks won't work as a children's lock, only as a lock against accidental presses or cat typing. and you might not even be able to design a captcha that older adults can
16:39:42 <b_jonas> open without getting too frustrated but the toddlers can't
16:39:51 <b_jonas> int-e: some newer microwaves also have them
16:40:13 <b_jonas> they're needed because small children like to press buttons
16:40:15 <int-e> b_jonas: I get the idea but I have no such appliance
16:40:43 <b_jonas> and they want to try all the buttons, so even if you give them a hundred other buttons, they will want to press the washing machine buttons too
16:41:32 <int-e> the old washing machine I have relies on (lack of) strength, the old-fashioned way
16:42:30 <b_jonas> there are also locks that rely on requiring a special tool, namely the dummy plugs you insert into mains electric outlets so that children can't plug anything in
16:42:58 <b_jonas> the hardest problem is locking stoves of course
16:43:44 <b_jonas> there are both physical solutions for that that cover the control panel or just the control dials, and digital ones, but at least one has a digital lock that doesn't even work as a cat lock, and I know because I managed to accidentally turn on my brother's electric stove
16:44:30 * oerjan checks b_jonas for whiskers
16:45:38 <b_jonas> you won't find them under all the facial hair
16:45:56 * int-e recalls a paper talking about whisker-compatible rules in higher-dimensional (2-dimensional, really) rewriting
16:46:55 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> you can fit two filled horocycles into a single horocycle, with a triply ideal triangle remaining => wait, how? There is just one ideal point there, how would two of them share it?..
16:47:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh yeah, it's not a triply ideal triangle that remains
16:48:03 <b_jonas> just a section bounded by three horocycles
16:48:12 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> open without getting too frustrated but the toddlers can't => reminisces of raccoon/bear-proof trash containers
16:48:18 <b_jonas> and yes, there's just one ideal point in it, shared by all three horocycles
16:48:27 <b_jonas> or wait, does that not work?
16:48:42 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the construction is, sorry, that one is stupid
16:48:56 <zzo38> Well, I think that these functions to lock the controls on microwaves and other stuff is mainly useful to avoid accidentally activating them, since anyone who wants to activate it will find a way whether they want to or not, know or not how to do.
16:49:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah yes. those might have the same problem.
16:49:41 <zzo38> Some TV cable box will have the option to set up a password required for purchasing, which I had did to avoid accidentally purchasing anything, not because there is someone that we need to prevent from deliberately doing so.
16:51:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's also a kind of parental lock, though I feel like that can also lead to the sitcom stereotype situation where the parent can't use the television, parental lock or not, whereas the toddler can use it and can factory reset it to reset the password
16:51:52 <b_jonas> my grandma recently bought one of these modern TVs, and of course it's a smart TV with internet capability and everything, with a "netflix" button on the remote
16:52:36 <b_jonas> I helped her set it up as a television but categorically refused to teach her how to use the internet part, just like I categorically refused to teach her the android phone that my family bought to her
16:53:12 <b_jonas> I bought a proper grandmaphone, which she can use well, but it doesn't ring loud enough, and grandma sometimes can't hear it, whereas the smartphone does ring loud enough
16:54:07 <b_jonas> I don't want to leave her in a situation where she doesn't have a working phone, but I also don't want to be technical support and teaching how the internet works and how not to do stupid things on the internet,
16:54:55 <b_jonas> so I have to put my foot down somewhere, and a nice line is to say that I can tell her a few things about her windows computer, but I don't use a touchscreen phone or a smartphone and I don't think it's appropriate for her and so I refuse to help with that
16:58:34 <zzo38> Yes, I do'nt like those smart TV either. In this case what I have is a cable box, and I don't really like it much, but that is what is required (although I am not the only one to use it; actually I don't use it much all myself as I don't watch television much)
17:00:17 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but I also don't want to be technical support and teaching how the internet works and how not to do stupid things on the internet => very relatable. My grandma has an android phone too, and she wants to be able to photo things and as she unfortunately lacks a suitable technical base model, you only can provide her step-by-step instructions and hope she won’t press something accidentally and get lost in the situation, though b
17:00:18 <arseniiv> less the home button, I said her it will quit her from anything, but no one wants to write anything down and I’m afraid she’ll forget the instructions due to lack of frequent practice and underlying models how it operates
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17:01:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the problem is that the home button doesn't quit from everything. it quits from the application, but then you reenter the application and it's still in the same state.
17:02:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: my mother actually got stuck in a loop of this when trying to teach my grandmother, with a state in the dialer she didn't realize how to quit. even my mother sometimes can't figure out how to use a smartphone, and she's much more flexible about learning new things, whereas my grandmother's hands are ill and so she also has difficulty operating a touchscreen, plus her vision isn't too good
17:02:30 <arseniiv> (she had a grandmaphone once, but then someone decided she needs more, and she agreed about wanting to photo things, and well…)
17:02:30 <arseniiv> oh, fair point, so then others telling her to backtrack several times gave her a better advice
17:03:10 <b_jonas> I'm glad that she can use a grandmaphone, i.e. a non-smartphone with large display and large buttons. mostly. she can't figure out how to delete SMSes when the memory fills up, and doesn't bother with typing lower case letters, but I can deal with that
17:04:15 <arseniiv> though won’t old SMS get deleted automatically usually?
17:04:58 <arseniiv> for all the progress we had made :( :D
17:05:36 <arseniiv> at least they could make that a togglable setting, if they’re afraid people would sue them for unconditional deletion of old data
17:14:17 <int-e> age is a lousy criterion for importance
17:16:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's a grandmaphone. it doesn't have lots of extra togglable settings. it doesn't even have an option to back up the phonebook to the inserted SD card, so I just put all the numbers to the SIM card so I could back them up by putting the SIM card to my spare phone
17:16:33 <int-e> And I'm saying that because I've kept some of the earliest SMSs on my mobile phone; they have some account details related to the current contract.
17:17:30 <int-e> There's a reason why the most common solution to running out of space is to add more storage ;)
17:18:35 <arseniiv> <int-e> age is a lousy criterion for importance => true, so that the setting should be “don’t delete” by default, and also there should be a way to mark messages as important, so they won’t get deleted even when this is on
17:21:24 <int-e> in fact plotting importance over age might result in a funny xkcd (in the usual style, with bumps explained as text)
17:21:34 <arseniiv> my cat is silly :( she rolls all her toys out of reach and then demands something unknown
17:22:07 <arseniiv> int-e: someone should write Randall :D
17:23:37 <int-e> possibly lows as well "that time all messages were inquiries 'about your offer on Craigslist' because someone got their phone number wrong"
18:00:39 <b_jonas> I don't recall such SMSes, but I have got phone calls to wrong number often. this is what you get when the phone number space is so small that mobile phone providers reuse your number if it's inactive for a year and a bit.
18:01:30 <b_jonas> I wish we at least had a longer number space in addition to the current short one, so you can get both a short and a long number that are currently synonyms, but the long one is never reused. in the age of smartphones, nobody will care if phone numbers have three extra digits.
18:03:38 <b_jonas> heck, is the government agency that divides the phone number space among service providers allowed that, mobile phone service providers could even charge extra for "short numbers" that are current full numbers, just like they current charge extra for memorable numbers and actual short numbers (3 to 6 digits without area code, starting with 1 these days, there used to be ones that start with 0 or 9 but I
18:03:44 <b_jonas> think they no longer exist except possibly unofficially some old emergency service numbers)
18:04:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is better for that to depend on the area code or other prefix, so that current telephone numbers have the same length and so that it can be determined by the prefix.
18:04:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it would have to be in a few new area codes
18:08:51 <b_jonas> there are also a lot of mobile phone accounts that need to have a phone number but almost nobody needs to know them except at the start to set them up: the ones used for internet access only in mobile internet modems, in POS terminals, and alarm systems. these could easily get just a longer phone number
18:09:38 <b_jonas> and with banks using SMSes sent to me as part of a multi-factor authentication system, I would really like to have phone numbers that won't be reused
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21:40:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fpstefan * New user account
21:58:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82875&oldid=82865 * Fpstefan * (+201)
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